So, I've seen on a couple of FB groups people saying they have heard that tactical marines and other 'firstborn' marines (other than scouts) currently with single wounds (e.g. vets, assault marines) will be getting 2 wounds in the new 9th edition codex.
Anyone else heard this? I can't find anything online from the usual reliable sources of 'leaks' (i.e. sources who are usually correct about 'leaked' rumours).
Doubt it. But if they did give classic and csm 2 wounds they'd just slap another wound on everything primaris without raising their price. So 3W intercessors and the scout dudes, 4W for the lame attempts at replacing terminators, and another wound for all primaris characters.
Gotta make everything primaris +1 to everything else to keep those primaris $$$ flowing.
XeonDragon wrote: So, I've seen on a couple of FB groups people saying they have heard that tactical marines and other 'firstborn' marines (other than scouts) currently with single wounds (e.g. vets, assault marines) will be getting 2 wounds in the new 9th edition codex.
Anyone else heard this? I can't find anything online from the usual reliable sources of 'leaks' (i.e. sources who are usually correct about 'leaked' rumours).
Doubt that will ever happen. But intercessors or other primaris units getting new squad weapons besides the melee ones and the grenade launcher could happen.
Sounds like too much to be true. Of it were then games vs primaris would feel more balanced. But vs every xenos it would probably not feel fair. Base troops with 2 wounds is too good in my oppinion.
Gitdakka wrote: Sounds like too much to be true. Of it were then games vs primaris would feel more balanced. But vs every xenos it would probably not feel fair. Base troops with 2 wounds is too good in my oppinion.
I agree, but personally (as someone who only got into the game in 8th ed), I find the idea of first born marines have the same wounds as a normal human... weird.
To be fair it does feel like GW is finally learning about using verticality in design of unit survivability. I do, however, worry that it will be almost entirely the realm of space marines which is going to suck.
BaconCatBug wrote: It's not going to happen. Oldmarines are intentionally being soft-Squatted.
Yeah I agree with this.
I'm sure Old marines wont make it past 10th, 10th or sooner will separate the books into First borne and Primaris, then they will be legends. So 6-7yrs give or take a year.
Well, I still think first is Necrons. We've likely already seen that cover, for example.
Deathwatch is supposedly early-ish, according to a GW stream, but I'm not clear if that means a DW codex before SM, or if they'll actually take the sane approach and start broadening the SM supplement line. That would have saved so much time and duplication during PA. It also jives with DW just getting a cursory WD update, just like necrons got Szeras and (happily) nothing out of Pariah.
Right now they aren't good on the tabletop, aren't reflective of their fluff and just feel weird (they always have to me, remember "movie marines" in the white dwarf?).
I'll still play with them anyway, but the game would be better if the models had rules that were more accurate. Maybe give all non-marine units the options they should have per their fluff, via stratagems in order to balance it out? I'm thinking stuff like "tide of traitors" for Ork Boy units, something about psychic powers for every Eldar unit and some kind of extra buffed reanimation protocols for Necrons. Tyranids getting some form of zombie-like we-eat-your-models-in-CC-and-turn-them-into-new-nids rule would be cool too.
Something that allows horde armies to be hordy without forcing the collector to spend way more than an elite army collector, while also allowing the elite army collector to have tough elite dudes would be awesome.
There is just no way this is possible. At 15 points they'd be a dirt cheap steal. Otherwise they'd be the price of Primaris. So then what's the point of Primaris? Slightly nicer guns when minis have a lot more flexibility?
We've already seen what's probably the cover of the latter codex, and it looks like there are more marine reveals left than necron reveals. (based on blurry pics that already leaked, and what might be the precedent set by the primaris chaplain on bike)
As much as I'd like there to be no such thing as a 1W Marine (aside from scouts), I just don't think they'll ever do that.
You'd need to do that same for Chaos Marines too.
And as others have stated, what would the point be for Primaris
I'd actually not be upset at this point if they moved Tactical Marines to "Legends" and then bumped Chaos Marines to 2W
Galef wrote: As much as I'd like there to be no such thing as a 1W Marine (aside from scouts), I just don't think they'll ever do that.
You'd need to do that same for Chaos Marines too.
And as others have stated, what would the point be for Primaris
I'd actually not be upset at this point if they moved Tactical Marines to "Legends" and then bumped Chaos Marines to 2W
-.
Seems unlikely that Chaos Marines would get 2W:
Manflayer wrote:They call themselves Primaris Marines, if that means anything to you.’
‘Nothing of any importance. And why are you concerned?’
‘They are larger. Stronger. Faster. Even veterans of the Long War are hard-pressed to match them. They are better than us, Fabius. Better in every way that matters.’
2W doesn't just turn them into Primaris. Primaris still have another attack, and more powerful weapons. If you compare a tac at 15pts and 2w to an intercessor, the intercessor has +1 A, -1 AP, and more range. That'd work out fine. The tacs can buy special/heavy weapons, but that costs more.
This would bring the two units inline with each other much better. They've have the same durability, but different styles of offense. Primaris units and their loadouts are different enough from normal marine units that's there little risk of overlap.
Also, while they may be soft squatting loyalist old marines, we know from Chaos getting new kits that they aren't phasing out the statline entirely. So some solution to the problem of the old MeQ statline being back since 8th is needed, and loyalist oldmarines may as well get it too.
I wouldn't be terribly shocked if a new general SM codex came by January. There is just so much new stuff coming.
But yeah, old marines getting 2 w seems unlikely (at best)
Infuriating as this will be for many, I would not be even a little surprised if the first codex is marines.
That said, I will be very surprised if that book gives oldmarines 2 wounds. I would also find it completely hillarious for so many reasons ...
Actually, the complete opposite for me. I'd much rather have Speese mehreens get the 1st codex treatment because the last time my orkz went first (only time) we had arguably the WORST most under powered POS codex in the game. And as many people keep saying "Theyve already written on the codex's blah blah blah" 1: I don't believe that for a second, and 2: even if they did, i guarantee they still feth up the first one or two.
As far as Tactical Marines getting 2 wounds. Not going to happen. besides the obvious arguments that have already hashed out comparing tacs to primaris, there is also the simple fact that a 15pt troop choice with 2w and a 3+ save would be slightly....over powered.
I wouldn't be terribly shocked if a new general SM codex came by January. There is just so much new stuff coming.
But yeah, old marines getting 2 w seems unlikely (at best)
Infuriating as this will be for many, I would not be even a little surprised if the first codex is marines.
That said, I will be very surprised if that book gives oldmarines 2 wounds. I would also find it completely hillarious for so many reasons ...
Actually, the complete opposite for me. I'd much rather have Speese mehreens get the 1st codex treatment because the last time my orkz went first (only time) we had arguably the WORST most under powered POS codex in the game. And as many people keep saying "Theyve already written on the codex's blah blah blah" 1: I don't believe that for a second, and 2: even if they did, i guarantee they still feth up the first one or two.
As far as Tactical Marines getting 2 wounds. Not going to happen. besides the obvious arguments that have already hashed out comparing tacs to primaris, there is also the simple fact that a 15pt troop choice with 2w and a 3+ save would be slightly....over powered.
Would it though? Compared to what? Compared to Primaris? It wouldn't be. The latest SM codex and its supplements set a new standard for how things are, and we clearly see that they haven't backed off from that with the new points changes. If other factions are going to be brought up to that standard, then 2W tacs wouldn't be a big deal at all. 2W intercessors are good, but they aren't breaking the game because they are 2W troops, even when they were cheaper. They were garbage for almost all of 8th and had 2w! The problem is levels of firepower due to doctrines and super doctrines.
I agree that it's an unlikely change though, but not because it would be that strong proportionally.
Insectum7 wrote: ^2W basic marines at 15 points per would absolutely be OP.
Were Intercessors OP when they were 17 pts? They were 2W and an extra attack, extra ap, and extra range. But I don't remember anyone complaining about them until they got doctrines. If tacs got 2W and end up OP, it won't be the 2W that's the problem. And I wouldn't expect it to break CSM as they don't have doctrines.
Note that I don't think 2W is a good solution for the classic MeQ statline's problem. It would be silly. But I don't think it would be broken or OP. It would return them to pre-8th levels of durability vs weapons with a bit of AP, but might be too much vs ap0.
If they bumped SM and CSM to 2 wounds they should do the same to other elites, too. I'm not even opposed to that if other factions got widespread access to AP weapons like Marines (and Necrons) have. In the end you'd have nice levels of resilience, 1W for the real hordes like Gaunts, Daemons, Tau(though they got armor and nice weapons), IG, Ork boys, 2W for tough infantry and 3 wounds for really tough infantry or infantry with heavy Armour (which would mean all Terminators).
So, which other units should have 2W, too? Aspect Warriors? Ork Elites? Necron elites (many of these already have T5)? Incubi?
I would be fine with this, I would even like it. They should give 2W to oldmarines, CSM and comparable elite infantry models (Necron Immortals, Eldar Aspect Warriors, ...).
Provided they balance the points accordingly, of course.
Aenar wrote: I would be fine with this, I would even like it. They should give 2W to oldmarines, CSM and comparable elite infantry models (Necron Immortals, Eldar Aspect Warriors, ...).
Provided they balance the points accordingly, of course.
Well they already gutted the points of a lot of troop units. DE warriors went from 6 to 9 pts, and they weren't good at 6pts! Even with 2W, 3T 5+ is squishy. Same situation for Guardians.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Were Intercessors OP when they were 17 pts? They were 2W and an extra attack, extra ap, and extra range. But I don't remember anyone complaining about them until they got doctrines.
Once Bolter Discipline became a thing they became a lot better than most Marine players seem to give them credit for, certainly better than most factions' Troops choices.
I think getting effectively a 2pt drop on that profile, while simultaneously everything else in the game goes up in points, would definitely be OP. A 2W Tactical vs 3 Guardsmen is no contest, let alone vs 1.5-2 Guardians, Kabalites, or Skitarii Rangers.
Insectum7 wrote: ^2W basic marines at 15 points per would absolutely be OP.
Were Intercessors OP when they were 17 pts? They were 2W and an extra attack, extra ap, and extra range.
And they couldn't get the weapon or delivery options of normal marines, heavily curttailing their damage potential. 2w Marines drop podding with Grav Cannons would have been fantastically good.
Galef wrote: As much as I'd like there to be no such thing as a 1W Marine (aside from scouts), I just don't think they'll ever do that.
You'd need to do that same for Chaos Marines too.
And as others have stated, what would the point be for Primaris
I'd actually not be upset at this point if they moved Tactical Marines to "Legends" and then bumped Chaos Marines to 2W
-.
Seems unlikely that Chaos Marines would get 2W:
Manflayer wrote:They call themselves Primaris Marines, if that means anything to you.’
‘Nothing of any importance. And why are you concerned?’
‘They are larger. Stronger. Faster. Even veterans of the Long War are hard-pressed to match them. They are better than us, Fabius. Better in every way that matters.’
Insectum7 wrote: ^2W basic marines at 15 points per would absolutely be OP.
Were Intercessors OP when they were 17 pts? They were 2W and an extra attack, extra ap, and extra range.
And they couldn't get the weapon or delivery options of normal marines, heavily curttailing their damage potential. 2w Marines drop podding with Grav Cannons would have been fantastically good.
Honestly I'm still annoyed the new Havocs didn't get W2
Insectum7 wrote: ^2W basic marines at 15 points per would absolutely be OP.
Were Intercessors OP when they were 17 pts? They were 2W and an extra attack, extra ap, and extra range.
And they couldn't get the weapon or delivery options of normal marines, heavily curttailing their damage potential. 2w Marines drop podding with Grav Cannons would have been fantastically good.
Honestly I'm still annoyed the new Havocs didn't get W2
Havocs should have kept the old model with T4 with the capacity for Specials, Heavies and extra bodies they way they used to be. Their legacy is that they're just CSMs with a higher saturation of ranged firepower.
BaconCatBug wrote: It's not going to happen. Oldmarines are intentionally being soft-Squatted.
Yeah I agree with this.
I'm sure Old marines wont make it past 10th, 10th or sooner will separate the books into First borne and Primaris, then they will be legends. So 6-7yrs give or take a year.
Manflayer wrote:They call themselves Primaris Marines, if that means anything to you.’
‘Nothing of any importance. And why are you concerned?’
‘They are larger. Stronger. Faster. Even veterans of the Long War are hard-pressed to match them. They are better than us, Fabius. Better in every way that matters.’
Did GW turn CSM into the scrappy underdogs resisting an overwhelming force on purpose? Lines like these don't tend to come from the antagonists' side.
Well, its slightly more complicated than that.
Partly its Reynolds' last BL book. So it might be a parting nose tweak (this exchange is supremely disconnected from the actual story, which wrapped up a couple thousand years earlier in M37), but then again, GW would have a lot of approval power, and they let it pass.
The line is also delivered by a... formerly disgraced Sons of Horus Apothecary that is serving Abaddon solely out of desire not to be squished, as he's pretty well established as a coward. So he has an inherently unreliable PoV on the situation. He's conveying a request from Abaddon for a counter to Primaris, but the whole exchange is very meta ['Ezekyle wants something to counter them, doesn’t he? How predictable. They make oversized warriors, we make oversized warriors.’ He shook his head. ‘A galaxy of children, squabbling over their toys.’] It even raises weird questions about the depiction of Fabius himself in the brand new model.
Personally, I find the whole exchange amusing, but it really displays the roughness of the game/fluff divide. But if you take it straight, yes. Chaos are absolutely the underdogs.
That shows up in a lot of the BL chaos novels (certainly the Ahriman trilogy is another example, but all three Fabius books show him off as a fringer who has to bargain badly for other people's power, and then turn the situation around). They're under-supplied scavengers with enemies in and out of the Eye, just scraping by and that Imperium outside isn't really something they can affect. They endure the long, long years punctuated by their inner demons and personal enemies.
Insectum7 wrote: ^2W basic marines at 15 points per would absolutely be OP.
Were Intercessors OP when they were 17 pts? They were 2W and an extra attack, extra ap, and extra range.
And they couldn't get the weapon or delivery options of normal marines, heavily curttailing their damage potential. 2w Marines drop podding with Grav Cannons would have been fantastically good.
Honestly I'm still annoyed the new Havocs didn't get W2
Havocs should have kept the old model with T4 with the capacity for Specials, Heavies and extra bodies they way they used to be. Their legacy is that they're just CSMs with a higher saturation of ranged firepower.
Which was basically Chosen with more Heavy Weapons instead of one. It's incredibly fething boring design wise, crunch wise, and quite frankly fluff wise as well. Oooooh they're Devastators but EEEEVIIIIIL so they get to have four Special Weapons if they want instead!
Insectum7 wrote: ^2W basic marines at 15 points per would absolutely be OP.
Were Intercessors OP when they were 17 pts? They were 2W and an extra attack, extra ap, and extra range.
And they couldn't get the weapon or delivery options of normal marines, heavily curttailing their damage potential. 2w Marines drop podding with Grav Cannons would have been fantastically good.
Honestly I'm still annoyed the new Havocs didn't get W2
Havocs should have kept the old model with T4 with the capacity for Specials, Heavies and extra bodies they way they used to be. Their legacy is that they're just CSMs with a higher saturation of ranged firepower.
Which was basically Chosen with more Heavy Weapons instead of one. It's incredibly fething boring design wise, crunch wise, and quite frankly fluff wise as well. Oooooh they're Devastators but EEEEVIIIIIL so they get to have four Special Weapons if they want instead!
Yeah no. Screw that.
They're literally just CSM with more guns. The problem you're having lies with Chosen, and that's a problem that I agree should be addressed.
A brief history of Havocs:
2nd Ed. They didn't exist, but CSMs could have up to three specials or Heavies in a squad, because Chaos is less regimented than loyalists. No FOC exists at this time, Troops are just any infantry unit, basically.
3rd Ed Havocs are created, and are just CSMs with three ranged weapon upgrades moved to the Heavy Support slot, which was new at the time.
3.5 Ed. They get four weapons to make them even with loyalist Devastators.
And so on until the middle of 8th Ed.
Havocs are literally just CSMs with a higher proportion of heavy/special weaponry, created because of the FOC brought about by 3rd edition. Fluff-wise they were pitch perfect, because CSMs don't follow the loyalist structure. CSM blob with two or fewer specials = Troops, CSM squad with 3 or more? Heavy Support. Otherwise identical because they're the same friggin guys.
AoS uses two wounds elite infantry without a problem. I mean, tzaangors in AoS have two wounds. One of the biggest problem of GW is their unwillingless to change obsolete statlines for a more balanced game. That they gave a second wound to terminators was a big surprise.
Galas wrote: AoS uses two wounds elite infantry without a problem. I mean, tzaangors in AoS have two wounds. One of the biggest problem of GW is their unwillingless to change obsolete statlines for a more balanced game. That they gave a second wound to terminators was a big surprise.
AoS also handles damage differently- damage passes on to the next model. If you zap tzaangor with a d6 damage weapon and get a 5, two tzaangors die and a third loses a wound. (after saves, etc, obviously)
40k doesn't do that, and that's huge.
It isn't a simple matter of 'obsolete statlines,' its how the various subsystems function.
Galas wrote: AoS uses two wounds elite infantry without a problem. I mean, tzaangors in AoS have two wounds. One of the biggest problem of GW is their unwillingless to change obsolete statlines for a more balanced game. That they gave a second wound to terminators was a big surprise.
AoS also handles damage differently- damage passes on to the next model. If you zap tzaangor with a d6 damage weapon and get a 5, two tzaangors die and a third loses a wound. (after saves, etc, obviously)
40k doesn't do that, and that's huge.
It isn't a simple matter of 'obsolete statlines,' its how the various subsystems function.
What, you don't want Lascannons shooting through six marines?
Galas wrote: AoS uses two wounds elite infantry without a problem. I mean, tzaangors in AoS have two wounds. One of the biggest problem of GW is their unwillingless to change obsolete statlines for a more balanced game. That they gave a second wound to terminators was a big surprise.
AoS also handles damage differently- damage passes on to the next model. If you zap tzaangor with a d6 damage weapon and get a 5, two tzaangors die and a third loses a wound. (after saves, etc, obviously)
40k doesn't do that, and that's huge.
It isn't a simple matter of 'obsolete statlines,' its how the various subsystems function.
But... that doesnt changes anything for 40k? I mean. That lasscannon shot would kill a single miniature be it a 1 wound one, a 3 wound one or a 5 wound one. The thing of having more wounds is having more of a difference between elite units and chaff units. Single wounds units have the problem of a couple of bad saves sinking a ton of points for nothing.
Galas wrote: AoS uses two wounds elite infantry without a problem. I mean, tzaangors in AoS have two wounds. One of the biggest problem of GW is their unwillingless to change obsolete statlines for a more balanced game. That they gave a second wound to terminators was a big surprise.
AoS also handles damage differently- damage passes on to the next model. If you zap tzaangor with a d6 damage weapon and get a 5, two tzaangors die and a third loses a wound. (after saves, etc, obviously)
40k doesn't do that, and that's huge.
It isn't a simple matter of 'obsolete statlines,' its how the various subsystems function.
But... that doesnt changes anything for 40k? I mean. That lasscannon shot would kill a single miniature be it a 1 wound one, a 3 wound one or a 5 wound one. The thing of having more wounds is having more of a difference between elite units and chaff units. Single wounds units have the problem of a couple of bad saves sinking a ton of points for nothing.
Correct. It changes nothing for 40k, because the damage mechanic is different in AoS. That is entirely the point.
So just claiming 'AoS has no problems with two wound elite infantry' fundamentally ignores that the two damage systems are not the same.
Manflayer wrote:They call themselves Primaris Marines, if that means anything to you.’
‘Nothing of any importance. And why are you concerned?’
‘They are larger. Stronger. Faster. Even veterans of the Long War are hard-pressed to match them. They are better than us, Fabius. Better in every way that matters.’
Did GW turn CSM into the scrappy underdogs resisting an overwhelming force on purpose? Lines like these don't tend to come from the antagonists' side.
Well, its slightly more complicated than that.
Partly its Reynolds' last BL book. So it might be a parting nose tweak (this exchange is supremely disconnected from the actual story, which wrapped up a couple thousand years earlier in M37), but then again, GW would have a lot of approval power, and they let it pass.
The line is also delivered by a... formerly disgraced Sons of Horus Apothecary that is serving Abaddon solely out of desire not to be squished, as he's pretty well established as a coward. So he has an inherently unreliable PoV on the situation. He's conveying a request from Abaddon for a counter to Primaris, but the whole exchange is very meta ['Ezekyle wants something to counter them, doesn’t he? How predictable. They make oversized warriors, we make oversized warriors.’ He shook his head. ‘A galaxy of children, squabbling over their toys.’] It even raises weird questions about the depiction of Fabius himself in the brand new model.
Personally, I find the whole exchange amusing, but it really displays the roughness of the game/fluff divide. But if you take it straight, yes. Chaos are absolutely the underdogs.
That shows up in a lot of the BL chaos novels (certainly the Ahriman trilogy is another example, but all three Fabius books show him off as a fringer who has to bargain badly for other people's power, and then turn the situation around). They're under-supplied scavengers with enemies in and out of the Eye, just scraping by and that Imperium outside isn't really something they can affect. They endure the long, long years punctuated by their inner demons and personal enemies.
Yeah that's how the legions are often portrayed. It's how ADB portrayed the Night Lords in his trilogy. It's also how I like it. Csm should be like Kurt Russell's character in Soldier, old veterans going up against the superior new breed using their guile and experience. The legions are The Wild Bunch, the Imperium are the federales.
Insectum7 wrote:They're literally just CSM with more guns. The problem you're having lies with Chosen, and that's a problem that I agree should be addressed.
So what's the problem with Chosen and how would you address it?
^Imo Chosen are too limited in their options. I don't see why they have a cap of four(five?) models who can take special equipment, while loyalist Sternguard and Vanguard (and Chaos Terminators) can load up everybody. Then give them access to veteran abilities a la 3.5.
I mean, of course the traitor legions in 40k are the underdogs. Chaos lost. 10k years ago. They have been running and trying to make a dent with mostly guerrilla warfare but they aren't even that relevant.
That doesnt mean Chaos is not the biggest problem for the imperium. But the ambiental space problems of chaos storms and the insidious chaos corruption of cults and demons are much more dangerous for the Imperium than the traitor legions.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Imo Chosen are too limited in their options. I don't see why they have a cap of four(five?) models who can take special equipment, while loyalist Sternguard and Vanguard (and Chaos Terminators) can load up everybody. Then give them access to veteran abilities a la 3.5.
Ah, yes, I thought we'd agree. Now make them troops and csm have a troops choice that can compete with intercessors and be different from them instead of a copy with spikes. Better weapons options, everyone can have a melee weapon, and the option for a heavy weapon, but inherently less durable and slightly more numerous. The addition of veteran abilities would highlight their experience. So troops with better experience and the ability to take non-standardized equipment (maybe give them back dispersed formation and/or infiltrate) vs inherently superior but less tactically flexible and standardized troops.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Imo Chosen are too limited in their options. I don't see why they have a cap of four(five?) models who can take special equipment, while loyalist Sternguard and Vanguard (and Chaos Terminators) can load up everybody. Then give them access to veteran abilities a la 3.5.
I've always thought that Chosen should be something to be feared. Chaos Marines are scary, but the presence of Chosen should be terrifying. A bit like when the Chaos Warriors show up in the Mark of Chaos trailer.
But they're basically just "Veteran Chaos Marines".
Insectum7 wrote: ^Imo Chosen are too limited in their options. I don't see why they have a cap of four(five?) models who can take special equipment, while loyalist Sternguard and Vanguard (and Chaos Terminators) can load up everybody. Then give them access to veteran abilities a la 3.5.
Ah, yes, I thought we'd agree. Now make them troops and csm have a troops choice that can compete with intercessors and be different from them instead of a copy with spikes. Better weapons options, everyone can have a melee weapon, and the option for a heavy weapon, but inherently less durable and slightly more numerous. The addition of veteran abilities would highlight their experience. So troops with better experience and the ability to take non-standardized equipment (maybe give them back dispersed formation and/or infiltrate) vs inherently superior but less tactically flexible and standardized troops.
I like it. Gw probably wouldn't though.
I wouldn't make them troops by default, but as an unlockable. I'd give CSMs the option for veteran upgrades again, though. I forget, can they take Marks now? I got the sense that Marks got watered down for 8th. I played Black Legion late 7th early 8th, but I forget details.
I do remember killing a bunch of Custodes and Primaris with Chaos Spawn though. That was fun!
Insectum7 wrote: I forget, can they take Marks now? I got the sense that Marks got watered down for 8th. I played Black Legion late 7th early 8th, but I forget details.
Watered down doesn't quite cover it. We've fallen a long way since 3.5 when Marks actually had rules.
Now they are just something that lets you use specific stratagems (ie. a unit has to have the Mark of Slaanesh to use the 'Fire Twice' strat, but the Mark itself does nothing).
Insectum7 wrote: ^Imo Chosen are too limited in their options. I don't see why they have a cap of four(five?) models who can take special equipment, while loyalist Sternguard and Vanguard (and Chaos Terminators) can load up everybody. Then give them access to veteran abilities a la 3.5.
Ah, yes, I thought we'd agree. Now make them troops and csm have a troops choice that can compete with intercessors and be different from them instead of a copy with spikes. Better weapons options, everyone can have a melee weapon, and the option for a heavy weapon, but inherently less durable and slightly more numerous. The addition of veteran abilities would highlight their experience. So troops with better experience and the ability to take non-standardized equipment (maybe give them back dispersed formation and/or infiltrate) vs inherently superior but less tactically flexible and standardized troops.
I like it. Gw probably wouldn't though.
I wouldn't make them troops by default, but as an unlockable. I'd give CSMs the option for veteran upgrades again, though. I forget, can they take Marks now? I got the sense that Marks got watered down for 8th. I played Black Legion late 7th early 8th, but I forget details.
I do remember killing a bunch of Custodes and Primaris with Chaos Spawn though. That was fun!
Unlockable how? For the legions only and not for renegades? Or only for certain legions?
And as H.B.M.C. points out, marks don't do a lot anymore other than enabling certain strategems. Doesn't bother me much though, because I play Night Lords, and Night Lords shouldn't have marks.
I've been advocating for the return of veteran abilities for some time as well.
Insectum7 wrote: I forget, can they take Marks now? I got the sense that Marks got watered down for 8th. I played Black Legion late 7th early 8th, but I forget details.
Watered down doesn't quite cover it. We've fallen a long way since 3.5 when Marks actually had rules.
Now they are just something that lets you use specific stratagems (ie. a unit has to have the Mark of Slaanesh to use the 'Fire Twice' strat, but the Mark itself does nothing).
Oh man, that sucks. Yeah I'd pump those way back up. Imo Marks should be huge boost to CSM over the loyalist counterparts.
Also Mark-boosted Terminators, I'd bring them back in force.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Imo Chosen are too limited in their options. I don't see why they have a cap of four(five?) models who can take special equipment, while loyalist Sternguard and Vanguard (and Chaos Terminators) can load up everybody. Then give them access to veteran abilities a la 3.5.
Ah, yes, I thought we'd agree. Now make them troops and csm have a troops choice that can compete with intercessors and be different from them instead of a copy with spikes. Better weapons options, everyone can have a melee weapon, and the option for a heavy weapon, but inherently less durable and slightly more numerous. The addition of veteran abilities would highlight their experience. So troops with better experience and the ability to take non-standardized equipment (maybe give them back dispersed formation and/or infiltrate) vs inherently superior but less tactically flexible and standardized troops.
I like it. Gw probably wouldn't though.
I wouldn't make them troops by default, but as an unlockable. I'd give CSMs the option for veteran upgrades again, though. I forget, can they take Marks now? I got the sense that Marks got watered down for 8th. I played Black Legion late 7th early 8th, but I forget details.
I do remember killing a bunch of Custodes and Primaris with Chaos Spawn though. That was fun!
Unlockable how? For the legions only and not for renegades? Or only for certain legions?
I default back to that being a Black Legion thing, but I'm open to other avenues. I think it was Black Legion in ye olde 3.5.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Imo Chosen are too limited in their options. I don't see why they have a cap of four(five?) models who can take special equipment, while loyalist Sternguard and Vanguard (and Chaos Terminators) can load up everybody. Then give them access to veteran abilities a la 3.5.
Ah, yes, I thought we'd agree. Now make them troops and csm have a troops choice that can compete with intercessors and be different from them instead of a copy with spikes. Better weapons options, everyone can have a melee weapon, and the option for a heavy weapon, but inherently less durable and slightly more numerous. The addition of veteran abilities would highlight their experience. So troops with better experience and the ability to take non-standardized equipment (maybe give them back dispersed formation and/or infiltrate) vs inherently superior but less tactically flexible and standardized troops.
I like it. Gw probably wouldn't though.
I wouldn't make them troops by default, but as an unlockable. I'd give CSMs the option for veteran upgrades again, though. I forget, can they take Marks now? I got the sense that Marks got watered down for 8th. I played Black Legion late 7th early 8th, but I forget details.
I do remember killing a bunch of Custodes and Primaris with Chaos Spawn though. That was fun!
Unlockable how? For the legions only and not for renegades? Or only for certain legions?
I default back to that being a Black Legion thing, but I'm open to other avenues. I think it was Black Legion in ye olde 3.5.
No, that wasn't 3.5, that was the Traitor Legions supplement at the end of 7th. Black Legion got Chosen and terminators as troops, everyone else got something else (Raptors for Night Lords, obliterators for iw, etc). That could work. I wouldn't mind having a troops choice for Night Lords with fly, 12 of movement, deep strike, and obsec. I hear mobility is pretty good in the new 9th edition missions.
Making Chosen troops doesn't really solve the problem. They're not very good, and are glass cannons with special weapons. The problem with CSM isn't that we can't dump enough points of special weapons into them, and an extra base attack doesn't address their real problems. The real problem is that they die too easily, mainly because of AP changes in 8th, and they do too little damage with basic marine weapons, also due to rule changes in 8th.
We need the classic MeQ statline to get fixed, not to shuffle units around. That should also fix it for all our other units, like Raptors.
(But I do like the idea of Legions being able to take signature units as Troops overall, but that's another issue.)
We need the classic MeQ statline to get fixed, not to shuffle units around.
Their statline is fine, we're just fighting tank battles with tons of anti-tank weaponry. It takes an entire Infantry Squad rapid firing at MEQ to take one down, before orders, twice that if the MEQ is in cover. It takes five Marines (pre Doctrine) to drop a marine before cover. Imo that's fine.
It's important to me that the relationships between core units are set up.well, as that's often the meat of the stories in 40k. Marines fighting waves of cultists, etc. The range advantage of marines with their bolter rules has done very well in that regard, giving MEQs a nice edge at range. It takes 8 squads if Infantry to kill a single Terminator beyond 12" range with lasguns. 10 Terminators kill 14 GEQ before any reroll bonuses, and at least loyalists can push it past 20. (Chaos gets close to 30 with Shoot Twice) The scenario where 10 Terminators chew through 100 cultists in the open is totally feasible. Or 10 marines vs. A hundred cultists if they can't bring numbers to bear and come in waves. That's the heart of the lore and the tabletop can achieve that with 1W MEQs. ImoCSM should get access to the -1 Bolter AP at least though.
We need the classic MeQ statline to get fixed, not to shuffle units around.
Their statline is fine, we're just fighting tank battles with tons of anti-tank weaponry. It takes an entire Infantry Squad rapid firing at MEQ to take one down, before orders, twice that if the MEQ is in cover. It takes five Marines (pre Doctrine) to drop a marine before cover. Imo that's fine.
Right, that's because those are all ap0 weapons, which didn't change from previous editions. Those things aren't the problem. The problem is that MeQs have become too inefficient vs ap-1 and ap-2, and their offense is too low. Bolters used to ignore 5+ and 6+ armor entirely, now they don't even have ap-1 (well, except loyalists got that back via doctrines.) Assault also totally changed, and much more.
^I started this game when Heavy Bolters had about 2D3 shots and AP -2. I also played epic. I'm ok with marines dying.
I support the answer being terrain, cover, hit modifiers and use of transports or vehicles to protect your dudes and strike on your terms. 9th is going that direction so I'm all for it.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Making Chosen troops doesn't really solve the problem. They're not very good, and are glass cannons with special weapons. The problem with CSM isn't that we can't dump enough points of special weapons into them, and an extra base attack doesn't address their real problems. The real problem is that they die too easily, mainly because of AP changes in 8th, and they do too little damage with basic marine weapons, also due to rule changes in 8th.
We need the classic MeQ statline to get fixed, not to shuffle units around. That should also fix it for all our other units, like Raptors.
(But I do like the idea of Legions being able to take signature units as Troops overall, but that's another issue.)
Point for point Chosen with combi-bolters and chainswords could stand up against intercessors within 24 or in cc before the points changes. They just need the ability to take combi-bolters on the entire squad.
Insectum7 wrote: ^2W basic marines at 15 points per would absolutely be OP.
Were Intercessors OP when they were 17 pts? They were 2W and an extra attack, extra ap, and extra range.
And they couldn't get the weapon or delivery options of normal marines, heavily curttailing their damage potential. 2w Marines drop podding with Grav Cannons would have been fantastically good.
Honestly I'm still annoyed the new Havocs didn't get W2
Havocs should have kept the old model with T4 with the capacity for Specials, Heavies and extra bodies they way they used to be. Their legacy is that they're just CSMs with a higher saturation of ranged firepower.
Which was basically Chosen with more Heavy Weapons instead of one. It's incredibly fething boring design wise, crunch wise, and quite frankly fluff wise as well. Oooooh they're Devastators but EEEEVIIIIIL so they get to have four Special Weapons if they want instead!
Yeah no. Screw that.
They're literally just CSM with more guns. The problem you're having lies with Chosen, and that's a problem that I agree should be addressed.
A brief history of Havocs:
2nd Ed. They didn't exist, but CSMs could have up to three specials or Heavies in a squad, because Chaos is less regimented than loyalists. No FOC exists at this time, Troops are just any infantry unit, basically.
3rd Ed Havocs are created, and are just CSMs with three ranged weapon upgrades moved to the Heavy Support slot, which was new at the time.
3.5 Ed. They get four weapons to make them even with loyalist Devastators.
And so on until the middle of 8th Ed.
Havocs are literally just CSMs with a higher proportion of heavy/special weaponry, created because of the FOC brought about by 3rd edition. Fluff-wise they were pitch perfect, because CSMs don't follow the loyalist structure. CSM blob with two or fewer specials = Troops, CSM squad with 3 or more? Heavy Support. Otherwise identical because they're the same friggin guys.
I know the history, and my point stands. Eeeeevvvviiiiiillllll Devastators is fething lazy design. You're really just proving my point. Just because you like something being a legacy doesn't mean it shouldn't change for the greater good of the army's identity. We have the "spike tax" as a meme for a reason, and that's because of holding back the CSM army as mirroring loyalists as much as possible in terms of core design.
I feel like slayer-fan has heard this description of “evil devastators” delivered far more articulately by someone else, bought right into it, and is now doing a poor job of trying to emulate something that likely wasn’t that intelligent in the first place. None of your complaints are making any sense or are at all compelling, your point doesn’t “still stand” when someone counters it, nor is it “proven for you”, you just look like you don’t really have anything else to fall back on and aren’t really aware why it is you’re so sure about what you’re saying in the first place.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I feel like slayer-fan has heard this description of “evil devastators” delivered far more articulately by someone else, bought right into it, and is now doing a poor job of trying to emulate something that likely wasn’t that intelligent in the first place. None of your complaints are making any sense or are at all compelling, your point doesn’t “still stand” when someone counters it, nor is it “proven for you”, you just look like you don’t really have anything else to fall back on and aren’t really aware why it is you’re so sure about what you’re saying in the first place.
Where am I incorrect that they're just the EEEEVIIIIIL mirror of Devastators and that it's lazy design?
Nitro Zeus wrote: I feel like slayer-fan has heard this description of “evil devastators” delivered far more articulately by someone else, bought right into it, and is now doing a poor job of trying to emulate something that likely wasn’t that intelligent in the first place. None of your complaints are making any sense or are at all compelling, your point doesn’t “still stand” when someone counters it, nor is it “proven for you”, you just look like you don’t really have anything else to fall back on and aren’t really aware why it is you’re so sure about what you’re saying in the first place.
Where am I incorrect that they're just the EEEEVIIIIIL mirror of Devastators and that it's lazy design?
I mean, yeah, thats what they are. But why is it lazy design? Both version of space marines have the same origin and there is bound to be some common points between the two.
Do you expect CSM to not have predators/rhinos/power armor just because the loyalists have them?
Nitro Zeus wrote: I feel like slayer-fan has heard this description of “evil devastators” delivered far more articulately by someone else, bought right into it, and is now doing a poor job of trying to emulate something that likely wasn’t that intelligent in the first place. None of your complaints are making any sense or are at all compelling, your point doesn’t “still stand” when someone counters it, nor is it “proven for you”, you just look like you don’t really have anything else to fall back on and aren’t really aware why it is you’re so sure about what you’re saying in the first place.
Where am I incorrect that they're just the EEEEVIIIIIL mirror of Devastators and that it's lazy design?
I mean, yeah, thats what they are. But why is it lazy design? Both version of space marines have the same origin and there is bound to be some common points between the two.
Do you expect CSM to not have predators/rhinos/power armor just because the loyalists have them?
Because, at some point, there has to be a line drawn for the identity of the two armies, and treating them as simply EEEEVIIIIL Space Marines has basically hindered their design ever since 4th. A couple of common vehicles? That's fine, whatever. Hell, I'm actually happy CSM don't have access to regular Drop Pods because that's an identity of Loyalist Scum.
More the issue is there's too many common points. Chaos Marines have been relegated to just evil Tactical Marines, Raptors are really just evil Assault Marines, and Havocs were just evil Devastators. While the execution isn't perfect, the newer identity for Havocs is a great thing for the CSM army to make them look like their own thing instead of "Marines but EEEEVIIIIL AND SPIKEY".
Nitro Zeus wrote: I feel like slayer-fan has heard this description of “evil devastators” delivered far more articulately by someone else, bought right into it, and is now doing a poor job of trying to emulate something that likely wasn’t that intelligent in the first place. None of your complaints are making any sense or are at all compelling, your point doesn’t “still stand” when someone counters it, nor is it “proven for you”, you just look like you don’t really have anything else to fall back on and aren’t really aware why it is you’re so sure about what you’re saying in the first place.
Where am I incorrect that they're just the EEEEVIIIIIL mirror of Devastators and that it's lazy design?
The part where Havocs could take special weapons and Chainswords, and the part where they reflected legacy and lore.
Because, at some point, there has to be a line drawn for the identity of the two armies, and treating them as simply EEEEVIIIIL Space Marines has basically hindered their design ever since 4th. A couple of common vehicles? That's fine, whatever. Hell, I'm actually happy CSM don't have access to regular Drop Pods because that's an identity of Loyalist Scum.
More the issue is there's too many common points. Chaos Marines have been relegated to just evil Tactical Marines, Raptors are really just evil Assault Marines, and Havocs were just evil Devastators. While the execution isn't perfect, the newer identity for Havocs is a great thing for the CSM army to make them look like their own thing instead of "Marines but EEEEVIIIIL AND SPIKEY".
I mean, CSM make extensive use of dreadclaws, which circumvent the "gotta get those droppods back after we use them". The newer identity of havocs still make them basically devastators, except they get no ablative wounds and they can move with no penalty. Theyre still power armored guys with heavy weapons.
And again, its normal that they have many points in common with loyalists, they're the same army originally.
csm DO have their own flavor but it comes with their demon engines and marks of chaos (which should do more than they currently do). Take the night lords, which mostly ignore all demonic stuff. Theyre basically just that, less organised spiky marines.
I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.
Too many chaos space marine players want to play Horus Heresy chaos or Renegade Chaos Space marines. And thats absolutely fine, but the more Chaos Space Marines departure from being loyalist but evil and more into being proper chaotic guys that have been trapped for 10.000 years in the galaxy equivalent of your anus after eating way too much on a Taco Bell, the better they'll be as a faction with proper identity and tactics.
"Devastators but with chainswords" doesn't fly in the second decade of the two thousands, guys.
In an ideal world you would have a Chaos Renegades codex for those kind of players but if I have to chose, I very much prefer a further departure into the chaotic realm for chaos marines, just like thousand sons and death guard codex have a much stronger identity both fluff and gameplay wise.
Galas wrote: I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.
Too many chaos space marine players want to play . . . Renegade Chaos Space marines.
Why would you think the Chaos Space Marine codex wouldn't represent that? Since it's inception, the Chaos Codex runs the gamut from recent renegades to 10000 year veterans, and it's done that best through robust options for the units allowing you to customize them into the force that you want. The NuHavocs are a step into the current GW paradigm of bifurcating up your army based on the separate kits that they sell.
Older way was better. If you wanted Renegades, you paid for your basic CSM bodies and your four Heavy weapons. If you wanted Veterans, you bought them Veteran upgrades and gave them effective Marks for the role you want them for. The single entry could be:
1: Tough, elite fire support through Tank Hunters and Mark of Nurgle for increased toughness.
2: Storm Troopers with Special Weapons and Assault gear, plus the Mark of Khorne and Infiltrators (I think they could get Infiltrators) 15 models iirc, too.
3: Cheap Renegades who mirror their loyalist past with 10 bodies and autocannons/HBs that they've raided from Guardsmen.
4: Or you could basically build the new Havoc unit with 5 dudes and some Heavy Weapons.
The new Havocs are a boring unit entry.
Your desire appears to be "Make it more Chaos-ey" by making the unit more homogenous in it's manifestation. I guess all Chaos Marines who like firepower all organize themselves in the same way across all warbands, for some arbitrary reason. That's stupid. The more time they spend as Chaos marines the more they should be able to diverge. Revert Havocs to the older style entry and options, give them the option for "Heavy Armor" or whatever to cover Move-and-fire if you want to pay for it, and call it a day.
Galas wrote: I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.
Too many chaos space marine players want to play . . . Renegade Chaos Space marines.
Why would you think the Chaos Space Marine codex wouldn't represent that? Since it's inception, the Chaos Codex runs the gamut from recent renegades to 10000 year veterans, and it's done that best through robust options for the units allowing you to customize them into the force that you want. The NuHavocs are a step into the current GW paradigm of bifurcating up your army based on the separate kits that they sell.
Older way was better. If you wanted Renegades, you paid for your basic CSM bodies and your four Heavy weapons. If you wanted Veterans, you bought them Veteran upgrades and gave them effective Marks for the role you want them for. The single entry could be:
1: Tough, elite fire support through Tank Hunters and Mark of Nurgle for increased toughness.
2: Storm Troopers with Special Weapons and Assault gear, plus the Mark of Khorne and Infiltrators (I think they could get Infiltrators) 15 models iirc, too.
3: Cheap Renegades who mirror their loyalist past with 10 bodies and autocannons/HBs that they've raided from Guardsmen.
4: Or you could basically build the new Havoc unit with 5 dudes and some Heavy Weapons.
The new Havocs are a boring unit entry.
Your desire appears to be "Make it more Chaos-ey" by making the unit more homogenous in it's manifestation. I guess all Chaos Marines who like firepower all organize themselves in the same way across all warbands, for some arbitrary reason. That's stupid. The more time they spend as Chaos marines the more they should be able to diverge. Revert Havocs to the older style entry and options, give them the option for "Heavy Armor" or whatever to cover Move-and-fire if you want to pay for it, and call it a day.
I like this, very 3.5, but I have one problem with it. It relies too heavily on marks. While I agree that marks should be more meaningful again, there should be some kind of bonus for legions that are aligned chaos undivided like the Night Lords. There should be some kind of bonus for playing a legion like them fluffy, without marks and daemonic units, except maybe warp talons (warp talons would be like furies in 3.5 for Night Lords). Maybe an additional part of their legion trait for going full godless?
Galas wrote: I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.
Too many chaos space marine players want to play . . . Renegade Chaos Space marines.
Why would you think the Chaos Space Marine codex wouldn't represent that? Since it's inception, the Chaos Codex runs the gamut from recent renegades to 10000 year veterans, and it's done that best through robust options for the units allowing you to customize them into the force that you want. The NuHavocs are a step into the current GW paradigm of bifurcating up your army based on the separate kits that they sell.
Older way was better. If you wanted Renegades, you paid for your basic CSM bodies and your four Heavy weapons. If you wanted Veterans, you bought them Veteran upgrades and gave them effective Marks for the role you want them for. The single entry could be:
1: Tough, elite fire support through Tank Hunters and Mark of Nurgle for increased toughness.
2: Storm Troopers with Special Weapons and Assault gear, plus the Mark of Khorne and Infiltrators (I think they could get Infiltrators) 15 models iirc, too.
3: Cheap Renegades who mirror their loyalist past with 10 bodies and autocannons/HBs that they've raided from Guardsmen.
4: Or you could basically build the new Havoc unit with 5 dudes and some Heavy Weapons.
The new Havocs are a boring unit entry.
Your desire appears to be "Make it more Chaos-ey" by making the unit more homogenous in it's manifestation. I guess all Chaos Marines who like firepower all organize themselves in the same way across all warbands, for some arbitrary reason. That's stupid. The more time they spend as Chaos marines the more they should be able to diverge. Revert Havocs to the older style entry and options, give them the option for "Heavy Armor" or whatever to cover Move-and-fire if you want to pay for it, and call it a day.
I like this, very 3.5, but I have one problem with it. It relies too heavily on marks. While I agree that marks should be more meaningful again, there should be some kind of bonus for legions that are aligned chaos undivided like the Night Lords. There should be some kind of bonus for playing a legion like them fluffy, without marks and daemonic units, except maybe warp talons (warp talons would be like furies in 3.5 for Night Lords). Maybe an additional part of their legion trait for going full godless?
Except that now infringes on the Night Lords that did follow gods afterwords in the 10,000 years afterwords. Not all of them stayed godless afterwords.
Galas wrote: I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.
Too many chaos space marine players want to play . . . Renegade Chaos Space marines.
Why would you think the Chaos Space Marine codex wouldn't represent that? Since it's inception, the Chaos Codex runs the gamut from recent renegades to 10000 year veterans, and it's done that best through robust options for the units allowing you to customize them into the force that you want. The NuHavocs are a step into the current GW paradigm of bifurcating up your army based on the separate kits that they sell.
Older way was better. If you wanted Renegades, you paid for your basic CSM bodies and your four Heavy weapons. If you wanted Veterans, you bought them Veteran upgrades and gave them effective Marks for the role you want them for. The single entry could be:
1: Tough, elite fire support through Tank Hunters and Mark of Nurgle for increased toughness.
2: Storm Troopers with Special Weapons and Assault gear, plus the Mark of Khorne and Infiltrators (I think they could get Infiltrators) 15 models iirc, too.
3: Cheap Renegades who mirror their loyalist past with 10 bodies and autocannons/HBs that they've raided from Guardsmen.
4: Or you could basically build the new Havoc unit with 5 dudes and some Heavy Weapons.
The new Havocs are a boring unit entry.
Your desire appears to be "Make it more Chaos-ey" by making the unit more homogenous in it's manifestation. I guess all Chaos Marines who like firepower all organize themselves in the same way across all warbands, for some arbitrary reason. That's stupid. The more time they spend as Chaos marines the more they should be able to diverge. Revert Havocs to the older style entry and options, give them the option for "Heavy Armor" or whatever to cover Move-and-fire if you want to pay for it, and call it a day.
I like this, very 3.5, but I have one problem with it. It relies too heavily on marks. While I agree that marks should be more meaningful again, there should be some kind of bonus for legions that are aligned chaos undivided like the Night Lords. There should be some kind of bonus for playing a legion like them fluffy, without marks and daemonic units, except maybe warp talons (warp talons would be like furies in 3.5 for Night Lords). Maybe an additional part of their legion trait for going full godless?
There was the Mark of Chaos Undivided right? I think the benefit was kinda lackluster, like re-roll Ld checks or something. I'd be very open to options that are not specifically Marks though.
Galas wrote: I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.
Too many chaos space marine players want to play . . . Renegade Chaos Space marines.
Why would you think the Chaos Space Marine codex wouldn't represent that? Since it's inception, the Chaos Codex runs the gamut from recent renegades to 10000 year veterans, and it's done that best through robust options for the units allowing you to customize them into the force that you want. The NuHavocs are a step into the current GW paradigm of bifurcating up your army based on the separate kits that they sell.
Older way was better. If you wanted Renegades, you paid for your basic CSM bodies and your four Heavy weapons. If you wanted Veterans, you bought them Veteran upgrades and gave them effective Marks for the role you want them for. The single entry could be:
1: Tough, elite fire support through Tank Hunters and Mark of Nurgle for increased toughness.
2: Storm Troopers with Special Weapons and Assault gear, plus the Mark of Khorne and Infiltrators (I think they could get Infiltrators) 15 models iirc, too.
3: Cheap Renegades who mirror their loyalist past with 10 bodies and autocannons/HBs that they've raided from Guardsmen.
4: Or you could basically build the new Havoc unit with 5 dudes and some Heavy Weapons.
The new Havocs are a boring unit entry.
Your desire appears to be "Make it more Chaos-ey" by making the unit more homogenous in it's manifestation. I guess all Chaos Marines who like firepower all organize themselves in the same way across all warbands, for some arbitrary reason. That's stupid. The more time they spend as Chaos marines the more they should be able to diverge. Revert Havocs to the older style entry and options, give them the option for "Heavy Armor" or whatever to cover Move-and-fire if you want to pay for it, and call it a day.
I like this, very 3.5, but I have one problem with it. It relies too heavily on marks. While I agree that marks should be more meaningful again, there should be some kind of bonus for legions that are aligned chaos undivided like the Night Lords. There should be some kind of bonus for playing a legion like them fluffy, without marks and daemonic units, except maybe warp talons (warp talons would be like furies in 3.5 for Night Lords). Maybe an additional part of their legion trait for going full godless?
Except that now infringes on the Night Lords that did follow gods afterwords in the 10,000 years afterwords. Not all of them stayed godless afterwords.
You could still use daemons and the like, you just wouldn't get the extra bonus. Everything shouldn't be free. It's the price you pay for straying from Curze's vision for the legion. And don't forget Sevatar's opinion on daemons either (or Talos telling all four Chaos Gods and Abaddon exactly what they could do with their offers to their faces).
Galas wrote: I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.
Too many chaos space marine players want to play . . . Renegade Chaos Space marines.
Why would you think the Chaos Space Marine codex wouldn't represent that? Since it's inception, the Chaos Codex runs the gamut from recent renegades to 10000 year veterans, and it's done that best through robust options for the units allowing you to customize them into the force that you want. The NuHavocs are a step into the current GW paradigm of bifurcating up your army based on the separate kits that they sell.
Older way was better. If you wanted Renegades, you paid for your basic CSM bodies and your four Heavy weapons. If you wanted Veterans, you bought them Veteran upgrades and gave them effective Marks for the role you want them for. The single entry could be:
1: Tough, elite fire support through Tank Hunters and Mark of Nurgle for increased toughness.
2: Storm Troopers with Special Weapons and Assault gear, plus the Mark of Khorne and Infiltrators (I think they could get Infiltrators) 15 models iirc, too.
3: Cheap Renegades who mirror their loyalist past with 10 bodies and autocannons/HBs that they've raided from Guardsmen.
4: Or you could basically build the new Havoc unit with 5 dudes and some Heavy Weapons.
The new Havocs are a boring unit entry.
Your desire appears to be "Make it more Chaos-ey" by making the unit more homogenous in it's manifestation. I guess all Chaos Marines who like firepower all organize themselves in the same way across all warbands, for some arbitrary reason. That's stupid. The more time they spend as Chaos marines the more they should be able to diverge. Revert Havocs to the older style entry and options, give them the option for "Heavy Armor" or whatever to cover Move-and-fire if you want to pay for it, and call it a day.
I like this, very 3.5, but I have one problem with it. It relies too heavily on marks. While I agree that marks should be more meaningful again, there should be some kind of bonus for legions that are aligned chaos undivided like the Night Lords. There should be some kind of bonus for playing a legion like them fluffy, without marks and daemonic units, except maybe warp talons (warp talons would be like furies in 3.5 for Night Lords). Maybe an additional part of their legion trait for going full godless?
There was the Mark of Chaos Undivided right? I think the benefit was kinda lackluster, like re-roll Ld checks or something. I'd be very open to options that are not specifically Marks though.
Making the Mark of Chaos Undivided good could definitely be an option.
Galas wrote: I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.
Too many chaos space marine players want to play . . . Renegade Chaos Space marines.
Why would you think the Chaos Space Marine codex wouldn't represent that?
Because Renegade and Heretic Chapters wouldn't be so far removed from Loyalist organization in the first place that the CSM codex has a place to represent them. You lose options based on that arbitrary difference, like all the sudden your Techmarines can't fix your can't your Land Speeders but you can suddenly get a bunch of Daemon Engines. Speaking of which, your Dreadnoughts lost their Assault Cannons and are super fleshy really fast! Oh and they're all automatically crazed just because. OH and your Ironclads don't work anymore by the way. Those Hurricane Bolters on your Land Raider? They don't work either, better install those Lascannons fast! Oh and all your Apothecaries are dead! Even though they exist in fluff and we only have Huron as he is now thanks to one of them.
It's simply bad writing to try and encompass them when, in reality, you can do a better job of it via just using the main Marine codex and replacing keywords for alliances. Let the CSM actually focus on making a warped army of warped super soldiers instead of "same as Loyalist but with spikes".
That's why your old Havocs were gak writing. The real boring entry is the one that's a literal copycat of the good guys with the only caveat being you get Special Weapons. New ones instead don't embrace that idea and are their own warped super soldier. Now is the entry perfect? Of course not. The Champ needs to be able to carry a heavy weapon, you're stuck at 5 dudes, and the base body should really be cheaper as it has to buy the weapon. However, I'll take that over the nonsense that has kept CSM a boring codex. We need less MEQ and more diverse statlines.
Galas wrote: I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.
Too many chaos space marine players want to play . . . Renegade Chaos Space marines.
Why would you think the Chaos Space Marine codex wouldn't represent that?
Because Renegade and Heretic Chapters wouldn't be so far removed from Loyalist organization in the first place that the CSM codex has a place to represent them. You lose options based on that arbitrary difference, like all the sudden your Techmarines can't fix your can't your Land Speeders but you can suddenly get a bunch of Daemon Engines. Speaking of which, your Dreadnoughts lost their Assault Cannons and are super fleshy really fast! Oh and they're all automatically crazed just because. OH and your Ironclads don't work anymore by the way. Those Hurricane Bolters on your Land Raider? They don't work either, better install those Lascannons fast! Oh and all your Apothecaries are dead! Even though they exist in fluff and we only have Huron as he is now thanks to one of them.
It's simply bad writing to try and encompass them when, in reality, you can do a better job of it via just using the main Marine codex and replacing keywords for alliances. Let the CSM actually focus on making a warped army of warped super soldiers instead of "same as Loyalist but with spikes".
That's why your old Havocs were gak writing. The real boring entry is the one that's a literal copycat of the good guys with the only caveat being you get Special Weapons. New ones instead don't embrace that idea and are their own warped super soldier. Now is the entry perfect? Of course not. The Champ needs to be able to carry a heavy weapon, you're stuck at 5 dudes, and the base body should really be cheaper as it has to buy the weapon. However, I'll take that over the nonsense that has kept CSM a boring codex. We need less MEQ and more diverse statlines.
It gets pretty dump when GW even writes the fluff as if Renegades become CSM immediately, with Daemon Engines and everything. In war of the Spider the newly turned Marines suddenly use Heldrakes and only Kharybdis Droppods, because that's what you're allowed to play with CSM...
On the other hand you had the Crimson Slaughter Codex in 6th that told you several times that these specialize in Droppods assaults, even after they turned on the Imperium. Understandably CSM players were like... Well, give us the damn things then.
Galas wrote: I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.
Too many chaos space marine players want to play . . . Renegade Chaos Space marines.
Why would you think the Chaos Space Marine codex wouldn't represent that?
Because Renegade and Heretic Chapters wouldn't be so far removed from Loyalist organization in the first place that the CSM codex has a place to represent them. You lose options based on that arbitrary difference, like all the sudden your Techmarines can't fix your can't your Land Speeders but you can suddenly get a bunch of Daemon Engines. Speaking of which, your Dreadnoughts lost their Assault Cannons and are super fleshy really fast! Oh and they're all automatically crazed just because. OH and your Ironclads don't work anymore by the way. Those Hurricane Bolters on your Land Raider? They don't work either, better install those Lascannons fast! Oh and all your Apothecaries are dead! Even though they exist in fluff and we only have Huron as he is now thanks to one of them.
It's simply bad writing to try and encompass them when, in reality, you can do a better job of it via just using the main Marine codex and replacing keywords for alliances. Let the CSM actually focus on making a warped army of warped super soldiers instead of "same as Loyalist but with spikes".
That's why your old Havocs were gak writing. The real boring entry is the one that's a literal copycat of the good guys with the only caveat being you get Special Weapons. New ones instead don't embrace that idea and are their own warped super soldier. Now is the entry perfect? Of course not. The Champ needs to be able to carry a heavy weapon, you're stuck at 5 dudes, and the base body should really be cheaper as it has to buy the weapon. However, I'll take that over the nonsense that has kept CSM a boring codex. We need less MEQ and more diverse statlines.
Mhm hmm, so you've replaced "evil Devastators" (that could take chainswords, Marks, Veteran abilities, specials and 10+ squads) with "Obliterators-lite" that is even more strictly regimented than the loyalist version.
It's wasn't "gak writing" by GW, it's just you not feeling like you could "write" the unit yourself, even when they explicitly gave you the tools to do it. In a similar vein of "Renegades don't immediately get Daemon Engines", one would assume that range-focused CSMs don't immediately become their own type of supersoldier, and if you wanted your focused supersoldiers you could build them with the old unit entry anyways.
The current Havocs are just what, T5 and able to move and fire? That's the extent of the substance you're arguing for, aside from your strange desire to limit options for a unit in order to feel special. The old format is a superior type of unit entry, hands down. It covered generic CSMs to supersoldiers, customizeable to your choosing.
There would be nothing wrong with the old "boring" units if we had options to upgrade them like we did back in 3.5.
Ideally, there would be a CSM statline that you could upgrade, and taking it in a different slot opened up more options. Imagine if you had CSM, and then you could choose some mix of the following upgrades:
- Marks that affect stats/special rules
- Legion specific upgrades (mainly for the undivided legions, like bionics for IW, since they don't get marks)
- A veteran skill (generally an upgrade to a stat, or a special rule)
And then which Force Org slot you take it in matters too.
- Elite slot: Allows special melee weapons and a second veteran skill
- Fast slot: Allows jump packs or outflank or infiltrate
- Heavy slot: Allows more heavy weapons
The available veteran skills could also vary by what slot it was in.
A system like this would allow you to represent recent renegades, pirates, original traitors, cult marines, etc. It wouldn't be boring.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: There would be nothing wrong with the old "boring" units if we had options to upgrade them like we did back in 3.5.
Ideally, there would be a CSM statline that you could upgrade, and taking it in a different slot opened up more options. Imagine if you had CSM, and then you could choose some mix of the following upgrades:
- Marks that affect stats/special rules
- Legion specific upgrades (mainly for the undivided legions, like bionics for IW, since they don't get marks)
- A veteran skill (generally an upgrade to a stat, or a special rule)
And then which Force Org slot you take it in matters too.
- Elite slot: Allows special melee weapons and a second veteran skill
- Fast slot: Allows jump packs or outflank or infiltrate
- Heavy slot: Allows more heavy weapons
The available veteran skills could also vary by what slot it was in.
A system like this would allow you to represent recent renegades, pirates, original traitors, cult marines, etc. It wouldn't be boring.
Seconded, and GW has shown to actually be able to do so, in the past, but it would take more time and money to actually think out such rules rather then write genereric legion renegade warband dex 10.
What's all this wailing, gnashing of teeth & rancor about CSM equipment got to do with somebody fantasizing about GW giving Loyalist old marines a 2nd wound come 9th ed?
I mean, I realize that the answer to the original question doesn't rate more than about a dozen words, but sheesh, talk about going off topic....
Galas wrote: I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.
Too many chaos space marine players want to play Horus Heresy chaos or Renegade Chaos Space marines. And thats absolutely fine, but the more Chaos Space Marines departure from being loyalist but evil and more into being proper chaotic guys that have been trapped for 10.000 years in the galaxy equivalent of your anus after eating way too much on a Taco Bell, the better they'll be as a faction with proper identity and tactics.
"Devastators but with chainswords" doesn't fly in the second decade of the two thousands, guys.
In an ideal world you would have a Chaos Renegades codex for those kind of players but if I have to chose, I very much prefer a further departure into the chaotic realm for chaos marines, just like thousand sons and death guard codex have a much stronger identity both fluff and gameplay wise.
I Agree. heck someone mentioned predators etc, and yeah in an ideal world, I'd love to see GW create a warped and mutated varient of those units (much like the hellbrute compared to the dreadnought) chaos vehicles should all be "half way to a deamon engine"
Galas wrote: I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.
Too many chaos space marine players want to play Horus Heresy chaos or Renegade Chaos Space marines. And thats absolutely fine, but the more Chaos Space Marines departure from being loyalist but evil and more into being proper chaotic guys that have been trapped for 10.000 years in the galaxy equivalent of your anus after eating way too much on a Taco Bell, the better they'll be as a faction with proper identity and tactics.
"Devastators but with chainswords" doesn't fly in the second decade of the two thousands, guys.
In an ideal world you would have a Chaos Renegades codex for those kind of players but if I have to chose, I very much prefer a further departure into the chaotic realm for chaos marines, just like thousand sons and death guard codex have a much stronger identity both fluff and gameplay wise.
I Agree. heck someone mentioned predators etc, and yeah in an ideal world, I'd love to see GW create a warped and mutated varient of those units (much like the hellbrute compared to the dreadnought) chaos vehicles should all be "half way to a deamon engine"
And those who want to run their models as less corrupted veterans? This is why some of the older codexes were so great, you had the options for both because of the arrangement of upgrades. If you wanted a spiky Predator you could do that, and if you wanted a corrupted and mutated Predator you could do that too. The more options you get to modify your units, the better. I don't recall what the vehicle options for Chaos are today, but I'm guessing they're pretty slim.
Actual veterans of the long war should look like bladeguard. Marines that fought in the heresy, plenty of experience, hard to kill, with complete wargear freedom. As in 'can take anything from bolt pistol and chainsword to missile launcher and power fist'.
Then there should be 1 wound initiates that represent their attempts at replacing losses.
The army should have the best marines in the game and the worst marines in the game.
While normal marines sit between those two extremes.
Galas wrote: I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.
Too many chaos space marine players want to play Horus Heresy chaos or Renegade Chaos Space marines. And thats absolutely fine, but the more Chaos Space Marines departure from being loyalist but evil and more into being proper chaotic guys that have been trapped for 10.000 years in the galaxy equivalent of your anus after eating way too much on a Taco Bell, the better they'll be as a faction with proper identity and tactics.
"Devastators but with chainswords" doesn't fly in the second decade of the two thousands, guys.
In an ideal world you would have a Chaos Renegades codex for those kind of players but if I have to chose, I very much prefer a further departure into the chaotic realm for chaos marines, just like thousand sons and death guard codex have a much stronger identity both fluff and gameplay wise.
I Agree. heck someone mentioned predators etc, and yeah in an ideal world, I'd love to see GW create a warped and mutated varient of those units (much like the hellbrute compared to the dreadnought) chaos vehicles should all be "half way to a deamon engine"
And those who want to run their models as less corrupted veterans? This is why some of the older codexes were so great, you had the options for both because of the arrangement of upgrades. If you wanted a spiky Predator you could do that, and if you wanted a corrupted and mutated Predator you could do that too. The more options you get to modify your units, the better. I don't recall what the vehicle options for Chaos are today, but I'm guessing they're pretty slim.
^^^^This. As I'm constantly having to point out all csm aren't chaos worshipping mutants. Iron Warriors are known to chop off entire limbs because they show signs of mutation, and Night Lords have been described in their fluff to avoid chaos worship and view it as a sign of weakness in others since the 2nd edition Chaos codex. There should be options to represent legions that don't swear fealty to the Chaos Gods as well as for those that do.
Hellebore wrote:Imo chaos marines should look very different.
Actual veterans of the long war should look like bladeguard. Marines that fought in the heresy, plenty of experience, hard to kill, with complete wargear freedom. As in 'can take anything from bolt pistol and chainsword to missile launcher and power fist'.
Then there should be 1 wound initiates that represent their attempts at replacing losses.
The army should have the best marines in the game and the worst marines in the game.
While normal marines sit between those two extremes.
Well, gw has certainly gotten the "worst marines in the game" half down pat for csm.
I love how since the 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codes, CSMs have very strictly followed the Codex Astartes. Can't have 2 weapons unless the full Codex-approved 10 men are there.
Arachnofiend wrote: Never ceases to amaze me how quickly people forgot that the initial primaris release sucked...
I wouldn't hold my breath for tacs getting two wounds, though.
That's becuase the 2/3rds of 8th was about getting as many bodies as possible on the board to take advantage of stratagem and reroll aura scale. I mean, It's not like tacs were much better except as 3+ save scouts. Marine players only wanted to get out as many weak shots as possible out to buff them with gulliman.
9th will be all about msu and elite armies, so tacs will go from 3+ save scouts to 1W 1A primaris.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Well, gw has certainly gotten the "worst marines in the game" half down pat for csm.
This wouldn't feel so egregious if Space marines didn't get so many intrinsic special rules that can be applied no matter the opponent. Combat Squads, ATSKNF, the new angels of death rules and even doctrines.
What do CSM get to measure up? A rule that only applies in close combat with imperial units and an equivalent to Angels of death, and even that one only because I'm sure only applying it to regular space marines would have been seen as blatant favouritism. And for those that would say that CSM are OK because they are 1pt cheaper, they're not... they're really not...
Even just getting an equivalent to the combat squad rule would make CSM more versatile.
Has this turned into a 'Chaos marines want to have everything Space Marines have, and be better, but also be different and have everything that defines being Chaos because reasons' wishlist?
BroodSpawn wrote: Has this turned into a 'Chaos marines want to have everything Space Marines have, and be better, but also be different and have everything that defines being Chaos because reasons' wishlist?
No, not everything has to perfectly mirror, but considering that they effectively carry out combat in the same manner, it shouldn't be unthinkable that they should at least have some equivalence with regards to rules.
If you want a suggestion on how they can be similar but functionally different, consider the following:
CSM with Combat squads:
Take a full 20 man squad, split into 4 x 5 man squads. because chaos can swap boltguns for chainswords, you can have 2 x 5 man squads with chainswords to move agressively up field, 1 x 5 man bolter squad to move for an objective and have you final squad with either 2 heavy weapons to sit back and chip away at priority targets or take special weapons and make an agressive advance towards a particular objective.
Same rule, but can be utilized differently.
Change Death to the false emperor to Despoilers of the galaxy and just straight up grant an additional hit on a 6+ in shooting and melee.
Now chaos space marines present a unique threat to fight as they can put out a potentially unprecedented heavy number of hits and severely diminish a unit..
BroodSpawn wrote: Has this turned into a 'Chaos marines want to have everything Space Marines have, and be better, but also be different and have everything that defines being Chaos because reasons' wishlist?
You just described Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Deathwatch and Dark Angels. . .
Chaos doesn't have everything Space Marines have. Like, not even close. But the basic Chaos Space Marine should vary between a bad Space Marine, and a really good Space Marine, plus potential dedication to a Chaos power.
Galas wrote: I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.
Too many chaos space marine players want to play . . . Renegade Chaos Space marines.
Why would you think the Chaos Space Marine codex wouldn't represent that? Since it's inception, the Chaos Codex runs the gamut from recent renegades to 10000 year veterans, and it's done that best through robust options for the units allowing you to customize them into the force that you want. The NuHavocs are a step into the current GW paradigm of bifurcating up your army based on the separate kits that they sell.
Older way was better. If you wanted Renegades, you paid for your basic CSM bodies and your four Heavy weapons. If you wanted Veterans, you bought them Veteran upgrades and gave them effective Marks for the role you want them for. The single entry could be:
1: Tough, elite fire support through Tank Hunters and Mark of Nurgle for increased toughness.
2: Storm Troopers with Special Weapons and Assault gear, plus the Mark of Khorne and Infiltrators (I think they could get Infiltrators) 15 models iirc, too.
3: Cheap Renegades who mirror their loyalist past with 10 bodies and autocannons/HBs that they've raided from Guardsmen.
4: Or you could basically build the new Havoc unit with 5 dudes and some Heavy Weapons.
The new Havocs are a boring unit entry.
Your desire appears to be "Make it more Chaos-ey" by making the unit more homogenous in it's manifestation. I guess all Chaos Marines who like firepower all organize themselves in the same way across all warbands, for some arbitrary reason. That's stupid. The more time they spend as Chaos marines the more they should be able to diverge. Revert Havocs to the older style entry and options, give them the option for "Heavy Armor" or whatever to cover Move-and-fire if you want to pay for it, and call it a day.
Y'know, I get why people don't want 40K to be Horus Heresy 2.0... but I gotta say, going through the HH rules, they do an excellent job of letting you customize units in this way. I expected a game that's basically All Marines All The Time to be really homogenous and boring, but the different special abilities among the Legions combined with the freedom to stack unit-wide upgrades makes for a lot of variety.
Chaos uniquely has the scope to do that in 40K, with different Marks and upgrades. It wouldn't take that much to make a unit of renegades feel very different from a unit of Nurgle-worshipping ten-thousand-year-old legionaries.
Heck, I wouldn't be opposed to having the basic W1 Marine be the default option, and then let any CSM unit in the army upgrade to W2 to represent a veteran of the Long War, and on top of that let them buy a Mark to represent specific dedication. You can have cheap fodder CSM, hardcore veterans, and favorites of the gods in the same army without a ton of work or additional datasheets.
Galas wrote: I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.
Too many chaos space marine players want to play . . . Renegade Chaos Space marines.
Why would you think the Chaos Space Marine codex wouldn't represent that? Since it's inception, the Chaos Codex runs the gamut from recent renegades to 10000 year veterans, and it's done that best through robust options for the units allowing you to customize them into the force that you want. The NuHavocs are a step into the current GW paradigm of bifurcating up your army based on the separate kits that they sell.
Older way was better. If you wanted Renegades, you paid for your basic CSM bodies and your four Heavy weapons. If you wanted Veterans, you bought them Veteran upgrades and gave them effective Marks for the role you want them for. The single entry could be:
1: Tough, elite fire support through Tank Hunters and Mark of Nurgle for increased toughness.
2: Storm Troopers with Special Weapons and Assault gear, plus the Mark of Khorne and Infiltrators (I think they could get Infiltrators) 15 models iirc, too.
3: Cheap Renegades who mirror their loyalist past with 10 bodies and autocannons/HBs that they've raided from Guardsmen.
4: Or you could basically build the new Havoc unit with 5 dudes and some Heavy Weapons.
The new Havocs are a boring unit entry.
Your desire appears to be "Make it more Chaos-ey" by making the unit more homogenous in it's manifestation. I guess all Chaos Marines who like firepower all organize themselves in the same way across all warbands, for some arbitrary reason. That's stupid. The more time they spend as Chaos marines the more they should be able to diverge. Revert Havocs to the older style entry and options, give them the option for "Heavy Armor" or whatever to cover Move-and-fire if you want to pay for it, and call it a day.
Y'know, I get why people don't want 40K to be Horus Heresy 2.0... but I gotta say, going through the HH rules, they do an excellent job of letting you customize units in this way. I expected a game that's basically All Marines All The Time to be really homogenous and boring, but the different special abilities among the Legions combined with the freedom to stack unit-wide upgrades makes for a lot of variety.
Chaos uniquely has the scope to do that in 40K, with different Marks and upgrades. It wouldn't take that much to make a unit of renegades feel very different from a unit of Nurgle-worshipping ten-thousand-year-old legionaries.
Heck, I wouldn't be opposed to having the basic W1 Marine be the default option, and then let any CSM unit in the army upgrade to W2 to represent a veteran of the Long War, and on top of that let them buy a Mark to represent specific dedication. You can have cheap fodder CSM, hardcore veterans, and favorites of the gods in the same army without a ton of work or additional datasheets.
Hell, that pretty much nails it on the head.
Literally implement these changes on Chosen (which are a pointless unit 90% of the time to begin with as they have no rules to really justify the price increase) and move them to troops.
Galas wrote: I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.
Too many chaos space marine players want to play . . . Renegade Chaos Space marines.
Why would you think the Chaos Space Marine codex wouldn't represent that? Since it's inception, the Chaos Codex runs the gamut from recent renegades to 10000 year veterans, and it's done that best through robust options for the units allowing you to customize them into the force that you want. The NuHavocs are a step into the current GW paradigm of bifurcating up your army based on the separate kits that they sell.
Older way was better. If you wanted Renegades, you paid for your basic CSM bodies and your four Heavy weapons. If you wanted Veterans, you bought them Veteran upgrades and gave them effective Marks for the role you want them for. The single entry could be:
1: Tough, elite fire support through Tank Hunters and Mark of Nurgle for increased toughness.
2: Storm Troopers with Special Weapons and Assault gear, plus the Mark of Khorne and Infiltrators (I think they could get Infiltrators) 15 models iirc, too.
3: Cheap Renegades who mirror their loyalist past with 10 bodies and autocannons/HBs that they've raided from Guardsmen.
4: Or you could basically build the new Havoc unit with 5 dudes and some Heavy Weapons.
The new Havocs are a boring unit entry.
Your desire appears to be "Make it more Chaos-ey" by making the unit more homogenous in it's manifestation. I guess all Chaos Marines who like firepower all organize themselves in the same way across all warbands, for some arbitrary reason. That's stupid. The more time they spend as Chaos marines the more they should be able to diverge. Revert Havocs to the older style entry and options, give them the option for "Heavy Armor" or whatever to cover Move-and-fire if you want to pay for it, and call it a day.
Y'know, I get why people don't want 40K to be Horus Heresy 2.0... but I gotta say, going through the HH rules, they do an excellent job of letting you customize units in this way. I expected a game that's basically All Marines All The Time to be really homogenous and boring, but the different special abilities among the Legions combined with the freedom to stack unit-wide upgrades makes for a lot of variety.
Chaos uniquely has the scope to do that in 40K, with different Marks and upgrades. It wouldn't take that much to make a unit of renegades feel very different from a unit of Nurgle-worshipping ten-thousand-year-old legionaries.
Heck, I wouldn't be opposed to having the basic W1 Marine be the default option, and then let any CSM unit in the army upgrade to W2 to represent a veteran of the Long War, and on top of that let them buy a Mark to represent specific dedication. You can have cheap fodder CSM, hardcore veterans, and favorites of the gods in the same army without a ton of work or additional datasheets.
Hell, that pretty much nails it on the head.
Literally implement these changes on Chosen (which are a pointless unit 90% of the time to begin with as they have no rules to really justify the price increase) and move them to troops.
Or just implement it on all class MeQ infantry, so that Chosen can stay elites. Why would you only fix this for a single unit type?
Actual veterans of the long war should look like bladeguard. Marines that fought in the heresy, plenty of experience, hard to kill, with complete wargear freedom. As in 'can take anything from bolt pistol and chainsword to missile launcher and power fist'.
Then there should be 1 wound initiates that represent their attempts at replacing losses.
The army should have the best marines in the game and the worst marines in the game.
While normal marines sit between those two extremes.
I'm only posting to say I agree with this totally. If loyal marines have a relatively even set of skills across all their units, chaos marines would be the opposite and have marines all stratified and siloed to by their skills, their age, their power generally. Even in recent renegades lots of units would find that the strong and ambitious marines in a basic tac squad strike off to seek the most glory, by forming their own elite units or trying to forcibly take leadership of other squads, and other marines would decide to indulge their esoteric interests and join cults, or other marines just lounge around bullying cultists and letting their skills degrade.
possibly, in an army disciplined enough to have separate fire support units, Havocs might be the only units that have the traditional loyalist stat line. everyone else would be vastly better VotLW, or goon squads who get merc'd by heroic loyalists shouting slogans.
It's very relevant to firstborn marines getting a second wound. On one hand, mook initiates could have one wound while chosen have three, so they're respectively worse and better than properly formed loyalist units. On the other hand, if loyalist firstborn and chaos mook squads both had two wounds, then the mook squads could take a hit in other areas, like having bs4+, while still having 2w and all the other advantages over guardsmen.
It gets pretty dump when GW even writes the fluff as if Renegades become CSM immediately, with Daemon Engines and everything. In war of the Spider the newly turned Marines suddenly use Heldrakes and only Kharybdis Droppods, because that's what you're allowed to play with CSM...
On the other hand you had the Crimson Slaughter Codex in 6th that told you several times that these specialize in Droppods assaults, even after they turned on the Imperium. Understandably CSM players were like... Well, give us the damn things then.
Maybe every space marine ship has a blast door with a sign on it saying, open this in case of going renegade. And the room behind it is full of autocannons, combi bolters etc and at the same time the opening of the door activiates a kill switch that blows up storm bolters, apothecaries, thunder cannons, razorback turrets etc.
Or just implement it on all class MeQ infantry, so that Chosen can stay elites. Why would you only fix this for a single unit type?
Except that would defeat the point. If you're going to say implement that and leave them as elites, shouldn't the case also be made for intercessors to be moved to elites, since then they have something with a comparable statline and a better base setup?
Everybody goes on about CSM wanting to be everything marines are but chaos but refuse to acknowledge that space marines get a whole heap of stuff out of nowhere that is just put in for the sake of it whereas chaos has so much variation hinted at that GW just turns a blind eye to.
So many space marine factions have their own unique troops whereas hardly any chaos legions have units that are specifically unique to them.
Galas wrote: I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.
Too many chaos space marine players want to play Horus Heresy chaos or Renegade Chaos Space marines. And thats absolutely fine, but the more Chaos Space Marines departure from being loyalist but evil and more into being proper chaotic guys that have been trapped for 10.000 years in the galaxy equivalent of your anus after eating way too much on a Taco Bell, the better they'll be as a faction with proper identity and tactics.
"Devastators but with chainswords" doesn't fly in the second decade of the two thousands, guys.
In an ideal world you would have a Chaos Renegades codex for those kind of players but if I have to chose, I very much prefer a further departure into the chaotic realm for chaos marines, just like thousand sons and death guard codex have a much stronger identity both fluff and gameplay wise.
I Agree. heck someone mentioned predators etc, and yeah in an ideal world, I'd love to see GW create a warped and mutated varient of those units (much like the hellbrute compared to the dreadnought) chaos vehicles should all be "half way to a deamon engine"
And those who want to run their models as less corrupted veterans?
Not everything in terms of crunch HAS to be represented in fluff, and not all parts of fluff need to be in crunch. Enhanced troops are easily explained via tons of experience, bionic enhancements, OR Chaos gifts.
Also Renegades can still be relegated to the main Marine codex and simply swap out keywords for allies.
^The reasoning is this: The vast majority of a Renegade chapters existence is spent after they've been severed from Imperial logistical support. The complicated stuff breaks down and rare replacement parts are hard to get. I'm sure they have Land Speeders and MultiMeltas etc for a bit, maybe a couple years. But the other 99% of their existence, they're unable to count on the support necessary for that equipment, and so it isn't seen anymore.
Insectum7 wrote: ^The reasoning is this: The vast majority of a Renegade chapters existence is spent after they've been severed from Imperial logistical support. The complicated stuff breaks down and rare replacement parts are hard to get. I'm sure they have Land Speeders and MultiMeltas etc for a bit, maybe a couple years. But the other 99% of their existence, they're unable to count on the support necessary for that equipment, and so it isn't seen anymore.
So what you're saying is all their Hurricane Bolters ran out of Ammo but somehow the basic Bolter will have enough ammo for them to keep going. Oh and their Razorbacks don't have functional Lascannons anymore, even though those are the same ones kept on the regular Land Raider all this time.
At some point, you can defend Renegades needing to be represented by the CSM codex. If you don't WANT Grav Cannons or Centurions or Sternguard or Apothecaries or Chapter Masters don't take them. However Renegade and Heretic Chapters absolutely need 100% access to them. The best way to do that? Just use the main codex (with consolidated Chapters now so we can account for the Angels successors that go rogue) with keyword switching for alliances.
^Rarer equipment can get broken, lost, traded away, broken down for parts, etc. Not necessarily gone, but rare enough to not get a listing in the book. Or those Lascannons that CSMs carry are the ones from their Razorbacks.
I find it amusing that you've been on this campaign to unify the loyalist codexes, but you're actively trying to split the Chaos one.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Rarer equipment can get broken, lost, traded away, broken down for parts, etc. Not necessarily gone, but rare enough to not get a listing in the book. Or those Lascannons that CSMs carry are the ones from their Razorbacks.
I find it amusing that you've been on this campaign to unify the loyalist codexes, but you're actively trying to split the Chaos one.
How am I advocating splitting? I'm for two codices: Traitor Legions and Loyalist Scum/Renegades/Heretics (with those latter two only needing a few pages to explain how they'd work and an entry for Huron). Also why would they carry Lascannons on foot when the Havocs you advocate for don't carry them as efficiently? Or somehow the a disabled Predator wouldn't be able to denote the one it's using.
Give me a break. Multi-Meltas are NOT rare equipment.
So rare that every Imperial Guard tank can only have two of them.
Just because it's a viable option doesn't mean it's commonplace. Iirc, traditionally the Plasma Cannon and Multimeltas were reserved for Demolisher variants. They might also be harder to maintain, for whatever reason, or difficult to make man-portable. Compare that to the fact that every infantry squad in a Guard regiment or PDF can be equipped with portable HBs, ACs, MLs and LCs, and supplied ammunition for it. That's going to make for popular choices for a force that has a logistical chain based on raiding.
So rare that every Imperial Guard tank can only have two of them.
Just because it's a viable option doesn't mean it's commonplace. Iirc, traditionally the Plasma Cannon and Multimeltas were reserved for Demolisher variants. They might also be harder to maintain, for whatever reason, or difficult to make man-portable. Compare that to the fact that every infantry squad in a Guard regiment or PDF can be equipped with portable HBs, ACs, MLs and LCs, and supplied ammunition for it. That's going to make for popular choices for a force that has a logistical chain based on raiding.
So Multi-Meltas are difficult to make portable but Reaper Autocannons are just a quickly modified Autocannon ready to to rock, along with losing those Cyclone Missile Launchers that fire the same rounds as Missile Launchers anyway, with THOSE being apparently impossible to maintain.
Not Online!!! wrote: wasn't the reason for the stormcannon beeing introduced that the reaper was expensive to manufacture?
2nd edition chaos codex says the reaper was the first to be developed, later to be improved into the assault cannon. The legions kept it because it was more reliable and easier to maintain. Don't know if that was changed in later editions.
So rare that every Imperial Guard tank can only have two of them.
Just because it's a viable option doesn't mean it's commonplace. Iirc, traditionally the Plasma Cannon and Multimeltas were reserved for Demolisher variants. They might also be harder to maintain, for whatever reason, or difficult to make man-portable. Compare that to the fact that every infantry squad in a Guard regiment or PDF can be equipped with portable HBs, ACs, MLs and LCs, and supplied ammunition for it. That's going to make for popular choices for a force that has a logistical chain based on raiding.
So Multi-Meltas are difficult to make portable but Reaper Autocannons are just a quickly modified Autocannon ready to to rock, along with losing those Cyclone Missile Launchers that fire the same rounds as Missile Launchers anyway, with THOSE being apparently impossible to maintain.
Yeah no.
Yeah, yes. Cyclones use sophisticated targeting gear that hasn't lasted for CSM, in the same way that in 2nd, CSM Terminators didn't have the targeters that loyalist Terminators did. Also, Cyclones may use different ammunition than MLs even though the common name is the samr. The Frag missile actually has different stats.
Martel732 wrote: And yet, reaper AC were way better in the game too.
No they weren't. Reapers did D6 damage vs. Assault Cannon D10, making the loyalist weapon much, much better against heavy targets like monsters and tanks. I'd take the Assault Cannon over the Reaper all day.
Martel732 wrote: And yet, reaper AC were way better in the game too.
No they weren't. Reapers did D6 damage vs. Assault Cannon D10, making the loyalist weapon much, much better against heavy targets like monsters and tanks. I'd take the Assault Cannon over the Reaper all day.
Martel732 wrote: And yet, reaper AC were way better in the game too.
No they weren't. Reapers did D6 damage vs. Assault Cannon D10, making the loyalist weapon much, much better against heavy targets like monsters and tanks. I'd take the Assault Cannon over the Reaper all day.
You are free to be wrong about that.
Just as you're free to be constantly negative about the armies you play/ed
The Heavy Bolter adequately covered the ground that the Reaper did against infantry. The Reaper wasn't nearly as good against vehicles that the Assault Cannon was. The difference between an average pen roll of 15 vs, 17 was huge, the extra 2 points meant a lot since many common armor values ranged from 17 to 21ish. Likewise wounds dealt to Carnifexes and Bloodthirsters.
So any truth to first born getting additional wounds? Given that an intercessor is (a rather excessive) 5 points more than a tactical, I'm guessing not?
So rare that every Imperial Guard tank can only have two of them.
Just because it's a viable option doesn't mean it's commonplace. Iirc, traditionally the Plasma Cannon and Multimeltas were reserved for Demolisher variants. They might also be harder to maintain, for whatever reason, or difficult to make man-portable. Compare that to the fact that every infantry squad in a Guard regiment or PDF can be equipped with portable HBs, ACs, MLs and LCs, and supplied ammunition for it. That's going to make for popular choices for a force that has a logistical chain based on raiding.
So Multi-Meltas are difficult to make portable but Reaper Autocannons are just a quickly modified Autocannon ready to to rock, along with losing those Cyclone Missile Launchers that fire the same rounds as Missile Launchers anyway, with THOSE being apparently impossible to maintain.
Yeah no.
Yeah, yes. Cyclones use sophisticated targeting gear that hasn't lasted for CSM, in the same way that in 2nd, CSM Terminators didn't have the targeters that loyalist Terminators did. Also, Cyclones may use different ammunition than MLs even though the common name is the samr. The Frag missile actually has different stats.
Yeah it just hasn't lasted because. Also the stats aren't different outside the number of shots (with the number of shots being equal in 7th and earlier). They initially priced it in 8th as two MLs for a reason ya know. You also haven't explained how any of the handheld stuff isn't working and they can't get it from vehicles outside "it just doesn't". It's an artificial difference for Renegades that shouldn't exist.
^Though the normal Frag Missile is D6 shots, the Cyclone Frag mode is 2D3, so although Krak mode has the same stats as two Krak missiles, the Frag does not, otherwise it would be 2D6. Even if the stats were the same, that still doesn't mean the ammunition is interchangeable, for whatever reason.
"It just doesn't" is a valid reason if maintenance is poor for lacking the former locgistical advantages a chapter had when it was part of the Imperium. They're on the run, no fortress monasteries, no ties to any Forge Worlds or manufacturing bases. How long do you think fancy equipment works when you can't maintain it?
Insectum7 wrote: ^Though the normal Frag Missile is D6 shots, the Cyclone Frag mode is 2D3, so although Krak mode has the same stats as two Krak missiles, the Frag does not, otherwise it would be 2D6. Even if the stats were the same, that still doesn't mean the ammunition is interchangeable, for whatever reason.
"It just doesn't" is a valid reason if maintenance is poor for lacking the former locgistical advantages a chapter had when it was part of the Imperium. They're on the run, no fortress monasteries, no ties to any Forge Worlds or manufacturing bases. How long do you think fancy equipment works when you can't maintain it?
It's been 2 blasts until 8th so clearly they've been the same. Also you'd have a point if killing other Marines for their equipment didn't exist. However it does, so you're totally incorrect.
So basically, you have to go on the belief that Techmarines are incompetent once they turn to Chaos, without being as tied to rules they can't maintain their equipment let alone fix it, the equipment that they use is wildly different from what they're looting from Imperial Guard and they absolutely cannot modify it outside JUST Autocannons, and of course they absolutely no extra equipment or anything they looted from Loyalists. OH and Marines suck at battle plans and therefore lose equipment and Soldiers all the time.
Even in a fictional setting that's just unbelievable.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Though the normal Frag Missile is D6 shots, the Cyclone Frag mode is 2D3, so although Krak mode has the same stats as two Krak missiles, the Frag does not, otherwise it would be 2D6. Even if the stats were the same, that still doesn't mean the ammunition is interchangeable, for whatever reason.
"It just doesn't" is a valid reason if maintenance is poor for lacking the former locgistical advantages a chapter had when it was part of the Imperium. They're on the run, no fortress monasteries, no ties to any Forge Worlds or manufacturing bases. How long do you think fancy equipment works when you can't maintain it?
It's been 2 blasts until 8th so clearly they've been the same. Also you'd have a point if killing other Marines for their equipment didn't exist. However it does, so you're totally incorrect.
So basically, you have to go on the belief that Techmarines are incompetent once they turn to Chaos, without being as tied to rules they can't maintain their equipment let alone fix it, the equipment that they use is wildly different from what they're looting from Imperial Guard and they absolutely cannot modify it outside JUST Autocannons, and of course they absolutely no extra equipment or anything they looted from Loyalists. OH and Marines suck at battle plans and therefore lose equipment and Soldiers all the time.
Even in a fictional setting that's just unbelievable.
There's nothing unbelievable about not using guns that you can't get bullets for.
Marines do lose equipment and soldiers all the time, and at the very least, they expend their ammunition and have to replace it. It's far easier to raid PDFs and IG supply ships for Autocannon ammo than it is to raid other Space Marines hoping to hit a jackpot supply of Cyclone ammunition.
What are the Techmarines doing? Probably spending their time repairing as much equipment as they can. Fixing armor, fixing vehicles, etc. Fixing spaceships even, since there's no Imperial dock that's going to repair and refit their ships, and if they try to go for a Chaos one, there's a half decent chance that some other Chaos warband is going to take their ship or scrap it for parts. Techmarines will know their supply chain is busted, so anything that becomes too complicated to maintain get's dropped in favor of equipment with easier logistics.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Though the normal Frag Missile is D6 shots, the Cyclone Frag mode is 2D3, so although Krak mode has the same stats as two Krak missiles, the Frag does not, otherwise it would be 2D6. Even if the stats were the same, that still doesn't mean the ammunition is interchangeable, for whatever reason.
"It just doesn't" is a valid reason if maintenance is poor for lacking the former locgistical advantages a chapter had when it was part of the Imperium. They're on the run, no fortress monasteries, no ties to any Forge Worlds or manufacturing bases. How long do you think fancy equipment works when you can't maintain it?
It's been 2 blasts until 8th so clearly they've been the same. Also you'd have a point if killing other Marines for their equipment didn't exist. However it does, so you're totally incorrect.
So basically, you have to go on the belief that Techmarines are incompetent once they turn to Chaos, without being as tied to rules they can't maintain their equipment let alone fix it, the equipment that they use is wildly different from what they're looting from Imperial Guard and they absolutely cannot modify it outside JUST Autocannons, and of course they absolutely no extra equipment or anything they looted from Loyalists. OH and Marines suck at battle plans and therefore lose equipment and Soldiers all the time.
Even in a fictional setting that's just unbelievable.
There's nothing unbelievable about not using guns that you can't get bullets for.
Marines do lose equipment and soldiers all the time, and at the very least, they expend their ammunition and have to replace it. It's far easier to raid PDFs and IG supply ships for Autocannon ammo than it is to raid other Space Marines, hoping to hit a jackpot supply of Cyclone ammunition.
What are the Techmarines doing? Probably spending their time repairing as much equipment as they can. Fixing armor, fixing vehicles, etc. Fixing spaceships even, since there's no Imperial dock that's going to repair and refit their ships, and if they try to go for a Chaos one, there's a half decent chance that some other Chaos warband is going to take their ship or scrap it for parts. Techmarines will know their supply chain is busted, so anything that becomes too complicated to maintain get's dropped in favor of equipment with easier logistics.
So why do they have Reaper Autocannons instead of regular ones?
Why don't they have Multimeltas, which IG has in spades?
Insectum7 wrote: ^Though the normal Frag Missile is D6 shots, the Cyclone Frag mode is 2D3, so although Krak mode has the same stats as two Krak missiles, the Frag does not, otherwise it would be 2D6. Even if the stats were the same, that still doesn't mean the ammunition is interchangeable, for whatever reason.
"It just doesn't" is a valid reason if maintenance is poor for lacking the former locgistical advantages a chapter had when it was part of the Imperium. They're on the run, no fortress monasteries, no ties to any Forge Worlds or manufacturing bases. How long do you think fancy equipment works when you can't maintain it?
It's been 2 blasts until 8th so clearly they've been the same. Also you'd have a point if killing other Marines for their equipment didn't exist. However it does, so you're totally incorrect.
So basically, you have to go on the belief that Techmarines are incompetent once they turn to Chaos, without being as tied to rules they can't maintain their equipment let alone fix it, the equipment that they use is wildly different from what they're looting from Imperial Guard and they absolutely cannot modify it outside JUST Autocannons, and of course they absolutely no extra equipment or anything they looted from Loyalists. OH and Marines suck at battle plans and therefore lose equipment and Soldiers all the time.
Even in a fictional setting that's just unbelievable.
There's nothing unbelievable about not using guns that you can't get bullets for.
Marines do lose equipment and soldiers all the time, and at the very least, they expend their ammunition and have to replace it. It's far easier to raid PDFs and IG supply ships for Autocannon ammo than it is to raid other Space Marines, hoping to hit a jackpot supply of Cyclone ammunition.
What are the Techmarines doing? Probably spending their time repairing as much equipment as they can. Fixing armor, fixing vehicles, etc. Fixing spaceships even, since there's no Imperial dock that's going to repair and refit their ships, and if they try to go for a Chaos one, there's a half decent chance that some other Chaos warband is going to take their ship or scrap it for parts. Techmarines will know their supply chain is busted, so anything that becomes too complicated to maintain get's dropped in favor of equipment with easier logistics.
So why do they have Reaper Autocannons instead of regular ones?
Why don't they have Multimeltas, which IG has in spades?
Reaper Autocannons might use ammunition that's easy to manufacture, for whatever reason. Low tech ammo for a low tech gun. Multimeltas might not be as common for IG as you think, and iirc they're not available in non-vehicle mounted variants. It's possible that the difficult part about the Multimelta is feeding it power, and the backpack allowing it to be man-portable is the tricky part. I don't think it's a coincidence that the standard CSM Heavy Weapons (up until the Rotor Cannon) were the same weapons that IG squads carried (minus the mortar, because no CSM wants to be part of a mortar team).
So how has this thread gone from : Tacticals might (should) have two wounds to : CSM have a hard time replenishing their resources so they stop using weapons/units even though the fluff says they still use them?
Personally i think normal marines (and csm) should stay at 1wounds and keep their flexibility vs the primaris (gear options).
If anything deserves 2w its cult marines and chosen to mirror the primaris.
How about this: CSM and Loyalists have different weapon options because the designers wanted the factions to play differently, and to reduce the spiky marines effect. Loyalists have more tech, chaos has warp stuff.
There. Done. Now let's not rehash this fluff argument for the thousandth time.
You can argue for any position on chaos marines and they can all sound feasible. Should the game cater to literally every conceivable option, or provide a good range and leave it at that? I would argue the former in which case they should stop creating every conceivable marine chapter, but that's just me....
Back to the original point.
I would actually really like them to mea culpa and align the old marines with the new, making their stats more similar, even if not identical.
They shouldn't be SOOOO much better, but iteratively. This means when they update tac squads etc, they can align them in size without people feeling they HAVE to be primaris to be any good.
The primaris profile is the profile that many (including myself) have argued marines should have for 20 years. It's not a better marine profile, it's what I would consider a 'normal' marine profile.
I expect that GW will eventually redo all the normal marine units as primaris until tac squads and dev squads are primaris and you wouldn't need non primaris versions of those units.
Let's be honest: fluff supports CSM having a lot more than they do. The reason CSM don't have those lore options and only have negatives is that GW hates the faction and shows blatant favoritism towards the pet LSM faction.
Balancing for CSM is built around the philosophy that any of the pros of the faction don't exist outside of fluff while anything that can remotely be considered a drawback has to be represented in mechanics.
hungryugolino wrote: Let's be honest: fluff supports CSM having a lot more than they do. The reason CSM don't have those lore options and only have negatives is that GW hates the faction and shows blatant favoritism towards the pet LSM faction.
Balancing for CSM is built around the philosophy that any of the pros of the faction don't exist outside of fluff while anything that can remotely be considered a drawback has to be represented in mechanics.
you're not going to get much sympathy - at least CSM get mini options through kitbash with whatever loyal stuff is released.
The xenos armies can't even do that, so they're stuck with nothing at all until GW deigns to release something.
hungryugolino wrote: Let's be honest: fluff supports CSM having a lot more than they do. The reason CSM don't have those lore options and only have negatives is that GW hates the faction and shows blatant favoritism towards the pet LSM faction.
Balancing for CSM is built around the philosophy that any of the pros of the faction don't exist outside of fluff while anything that can remotely be considered a drawback has to be represented in mechanics.
you're not going to get much sympathy - at least CSM get mini options through kitbash with whatever loyal stuff is released.
The xenos armies can't even do that, so they're stuck with nothing at all until GW deigns to release something.
Xenos get shafted too. It's unfortunate for pretty much everyone-Loyalists included, since I'd hazard to think that most people don't actually want to curbstomp foes effortlessly, and would enjoy seeing more variety in their opponents.
hungryugolino wrote: Let's be honest: fluff supports CSM having a lot more than they do. The reason CSM don't have those lore options and only have negatives is that GW hates the faction and shows blatant favoritism towards the pet LSM faction.
Balancing for CSM is built around the philosophy that any of the pros of the faction don't exist outside of fluff while anything that can remotely be considered a drawback has to be represented in mechanics.
you're not going to get much sympathy - at least CSM get mini options through kitbash with whatever loyal stuff is released.
The xenos armies can't even do that, so they're stuck with nothing at all until GW deigns to release something.
Xenos get shafted too. It's unfortunate for pretty much everyone-Loyalists included, since I'd hazard to think that most people don't actually want to curbstomp foes effortlessly, and would enjoy seeing more variety in their opponents.
Absolutely. The game requires community and diversity, but if you created tiers of favourtism then people will gravitate towards those fun things that are less work to be fun. Given this is a hobby and fun is the main currency. GW are literally making it harder for non marine players to enjoy the game.
It's an interesting thing as it mirrors structurally (but obviously not ACTUALLY and I'm not claiming any actual victimisation here) racial inequality. You have clear advantages if you are a marine player in terms of support and you are working within an evironment with entrenched favoritism from the authorities that normalise making fun of Xenos, and bigging up marines. You've got a hobby culture of the imperium at the top and everyone else under them. So it's really hard for people to get their voices heard because there's an expectation that they don't matter, that of COURSE marines are the most important and of COURSE the imperium is the focus.
I saw this in a FB post on the GW40k page, when someone commented on a release that it would be nice to see non marine stuff - the staff actually made fun of that request, like it was fine to tease your customers because if they aren't marines they don't matter.
GW really needs to decide what its product is doing - are they making the imperium the protagonist and everyone else mooks to kill? In which case they need to shift their marketing to a more Space hulk style, where you and your friends take turns playing your chosen marines against the mook aliens. Where everyone starts with their favourite imperial army and that's THEM and anything else is a mook force you pick up cheap to slaughter gloriously in the name of the imperium.
If, however, they are selling a wargame with equally meaningful factions where you the player choose your faction and they are YOU, then GW needs to COMMIT to that by actually treating all their factions equally so players actually feel they've got real choice, rather than 'you can pick a colour of marine that does anything, or make life hard and choose a xenos army that does the same thing worse, with no support and older models'.
GW are currently treating their product like space hulk, but marketing it like its a wargame with real faction choice. It's dishonest and perpetuates a continual cycle of non marine players getting tired of being taken for granted and ignored and either stop playing or switch to marines.
Very few people are masochist enough to stick with an army that is treated like crap and literally made fun of by GW staff...
VladimirHerzog wrote: So how has this thread gone from : Tacticals might (should) have two wounds to : CSM have a hard time replenishing their resources so they stop using weapons/units even though the fluff says they still use them?
Personally i think normal marines (and csm) should stay at 1wounds and keep their flexibility vs the primaris (gear options).
If anything deserves 2w its cult marines and chosen to mirror the primaris.
I disagree. I think basic marines should have an extra wound. Infantry have a single wound. Isn't the whole point of the organ implants to make them super-human? Sure, that is partly reflected in the higher toughness of the classic marine vs imperial guardsman, but is that the whole story? the saving throw reflects the armour they wear. I still think a good case could be made for classic marines to have 2 wounds (other than scouts). I'd be happy with Primaris either having an extra pip of toughness compared to classic marines, or maybe even an extra wound (i.e. 3), but if that were to happen then INMHO GW should embark of a massive re-balancing exercise.
I just think classic marines having the same wounds are normal humans, eldar etc. is bonkers. Gronker bonkers even. But hey, won't stop me playing the game and having fun anyways!
hungryugolino wrote: Let's be honest: fluff supports CSM having a lot more than they do. The reason CSM don't have those lore options and only have negatives is that GW hates the faction and shows blatant favoritism towards the pet LSM faction.
Balancing for CSM is built around the philosophy that any of the pros of the faction don't exist outside of fluff while anything that can remotely be considered a drawback has to be represented in mechanics.
you're not going to get much sympathy - at least CSM get mini options through kitbash with whatever loyal stuff is released.
The xenos armies can't even do that, so they're stuck with nothing at all until GW deigns to release something.
Xenos can at least hope for being viable at some point- just look at Necrons. Also, Primaris kits are completely incompatible design-wise with a proper chaos aesthetic.
Keep marines at 1w. They're already resilient against small arms and anti infantry fire. Consider how many marines it takes to drop another marine with their bolters. Right now it takes 5 marines rapid firing to drop a marine on average using boltguns..666×.5×.333×10=1.1 It takes 3 marines if they're in Doctrine and benefitting with a -1 AP. It takes just over 18 Lasgun shots, using an entire Guard Infantry squad to take down a single marine. This is fine.
Instead, give Primaris 1W and toughness 5. Then change the wound chart back to what it was before 8th. Lasguns would be just as effective against Intercessors as they are now, but S4 weapons would get a boost against them. That would put most core infantry back in a better alignment with each other.
Insectum7 wrote: Keep marines at 1w. They're already resilient against small arms and anti infantry fire. Consider how many marines it takes to drop another marine with their bolters. Right now it takes 5 marines rapid firing to drop a marine on average using boltguns..666×.5×.333×10=1.1 It takes 3 marines if they're in Doctrine and benefitting with a -1 AP. It takes just over 18 Lasgun shots, using an entire Guard Infantry squad to take down a single marine. This is fine.
Instead, give Primaris 1W and toughness 5. Then change the wound chart back to what it was before 8th. Lasguns would be just as effective against Intercessors as they are now, but S4 weapons would get a boost against them. That would put most core infantry back in a better alignment with each other.
Now that is a really interesting idea. I could live with that!
Instead, give Primaris 1W and toughness 5. Then change the wound chart back to what it was before 8th. Lasguns would be just as effective against Intercessors as they are now, but S4 weapons would get a boost against them. That would put most core infantry back in a better alignment with each other.
It isn't always about lasguns...(it almost never is)
This sort of change means an asscan goes from 66% of a Primaris to 133% of one.
Instead, give Primaris 1W and toughness 5. Then change the wound chart back to what it was before 8th. Lasguns would be just as effective against Intercessors as they are now, but S4 weapons would get a boost against them. That would put most core infantry back in a better alignment with each other.
It isn't always about lasguns...(it almost never is)
This sort of change means an asscan goes from 66% of a Primaris to 133% of one.
Good. I'm all for it. I come from the days when each hit from an Assault Cannon did D10 wounds anyways.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Though the normal Frag Missile is D6 shots, the Cyclone Frag mode is 2D3, so although Krak mode has the same stats as two Krak missiles, the Frag does not, otherwise it would be 2D6. Even if the stats were the same, that still doesn't mean the ammunition is interchangeable, for whatever reason.
"It just doesn't" is a valid reason if maintenance is poor for lacking the former locgistical advantages a chapter had when it was part of the Imperium. They're on the run, no fortress monasteries, no ties to any Forge Worlds or manufacturing bases. How long do you think fancy equipment works when you can't maintain it?
It's been 2 blasts until 8th so clearly they've been the same. Also you'd have a point if killing other Marines for their equipment didn't exist. However it does, so you're totally incorrect.
So basically, you have to go on the belief that Techmarines are incompetent once they turn to Chaos, without being as tied to rules they can't maintain their equipment let alone fix it, the equipment that they use is wildly different from what they're looting from Imperial Guard and they absolutely cannot modify it outside JUST Autocannons, and of course they absolutely no extra equipment or anything they looted from Loyalists. OH and Marines suck at battle plans and therefore lose equipment and Soldiers all the time.
Even in a fictional setting that's just unbelievable.
There's nothing unbelievable about not using guns that you can't get bullets for.
Marines do lose equipment and soldiers all the time, and at the very least, they expend their ammunition and have to replace it. It's far easier to raid PDFs and IG supply ships for Autocannon ammo than it is to raid other Space Marines, hoping to hit a jackpot supply of Cyclone ammunition.
What are the Techmarines doing? Probably spending their time repairing as much equipment as they can. Fixing armor, fixing vehicles, etc. Fixing spaceships even, since there's no Imperial dock that's going to repair and refit their ships, and if they try to go for a Chaos one, there's a half decent chance that some other Chaos warband is going to take their ship or scrap it for parts. Techmarines will know their supply chain is busted, so anything that becomes too complicated to maintain get's dropped in favor of equipment with easier logistics.
So why do they have Reaper Autocannons instead of regular ones?
Why don't they have Multimeltas, which IG has in spades?
Reaper Autocannons might use ammunition that's easy to manufacture, for whatever reason. Low tech ammo for a low tech gun. Multimeltas might not be as common for IG as you think, and iirc they're not available in non-vehicle mounted variants. It's possible that the difficult part about the Multimelta is feeding it power, and the backpack allowing it to be man-portable is the tricky part. I don't think it's a coincidence that the standard CSM Heavy Weapons (up until the Rotor Cannon) were the same weapons that IG squads carried (minus the mortar, because no CSM wants to be part of a mortar team).
Insectum7 wrote: ^Though the normal Frag Missile is D6 shots, the Cyclone Frag mode is 2D3, so although Krak mode has the same stats as two Krak missiles, the Frag does not, otherwise it would be 2D6. Even if the stats were the same, that still doesn't mean the ammunition is interchangeable, for whatever reason.
"It just doesn't" is a valid reason if maintenance is poor for lacking the former locgistical advantages a chapter had when it was part of the Imperium. They're on the run, no fortress monasteries, no ties to any Forge Worlds or manufacturing bases. How long do you think fancy equipment works when you can't maintain it?
It's been 2 blasts until 8th so clearly they've been the same. Also you'd have a point if killing other Marines for their equipment didn't exist. However it does, so you're totally incorrect.
So basically, you have to go on the belief that Techmarines are incompetent once they turn to Chaos, without being as tied to rules they can't maintain their equipment let alone fix it, the equipment that they use is wildly different from what they're looting from Imperial Guard and they absolutely cannot modify it outside JUST Autocannons, and of course they absolutely no extra equipment or anything they looted from Loyalists. OH and Marines suck at battle plans and therefore lose equipment and Soldiers all the time.
Even in a fictional setting that's just unbelievable.
There's nothing unbelievable about not using guns that you can't get bullets for.
Marines do lose equipment and soldiers all the time, and at the very least, they expend their ammunition and have to replace it. It's far easier to raid PDFs and IG supply ships for Autocannon ammo than it is to raid other Space Marines, hoping to hit a jackpot supply of Cyclone ammunition.
What are the Techmarines doing? Probably spending their time repairing as much equipment as they can. Fixing armor, fixing vehicles, etc. Fixing spaceships even, since there's no Imperial dock that's going to repair and refit their ships, and if they try to go for a Chaos one, there's a half decent chance that some other Chaos warband is going to take their ship or scrap it for parts. Techmarines will know their supply chain is busted, so anything that becomes too complicated to maintain get's dropped in favor of equipment with easier logistics.
So why do they have Reaper Autocannons instead of regular ones?
Why don't they have Multimeltas, which IG has in spades?
Reaper Autocannons might use ammunition that's easy to manufacture, for whatever reason. Low tech ammo for a low tech gun. Multimeltas might not be as common for IG as you think, and iirc they're not available in non-vehicle mounted variants. It's possible that the difficult part about the Multimelta is feeding it power, and the backpack allowing it to be man-portable is the tricky part. I don't think it's a coincidence that the standard CSM Heavy Weapons (up until the Rotor Cannon) were the same weapons that IG squads carried (minus the mortar, because no CSM wants to be part of a mortar team).
The hand waving by you is simply amazing.
And your lack of imagination and counterargument is predictable.
The supply chain for renegades is completely different to that of loyalists. They have to resort to piracy, self manufacture, and risky trading with other chaos forces. It should be totally understandable that, after a brief time of turning traitor, some of their equipment falls out of favor.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Though the normal Frag Missile is D6 shots, the Cyclone Frag mode is 2D3, so although Krak mode has the same stats as two Krak missiles, the Frag does not, otherwise it would be 2D6. Even if the stats were the same, that still doesn't mean the ammunition is interchangeable, for whatever reason.
"It just doesn't" is a valid reason if maintenance is poor for lacking the former locgistical advantages a chapter had when it was part of the Imperium. They're on the run, no fortress monasteries, no ties to any Forge Worlds or manufacturing bases. How long do you think fancy equipment works when you can't maintain it?
It's been 2 blasts until 8th so clearly they've been the same. Also you'd have a point if killing other Marines for their equipment didn't exist. However it does, so you're totally incorrect.
So basically, you have to go on the belief that Techmarines are incompetent once they turn to Chaos, without being as tied to rules they can't maintain their equipment let alone fix it, the equipment that they use is wildly different from what they're looting from Imperial Guard and they absolutely cannot modify it outside JUST Autocannons, and of course they absolutely no extra equipment or anything they looted from Loyalists. OH and Marines suck at battle plans and therefore lose equipment and Soldiers all the time.
Even in a fictional setting that's just unbelievable.
There's nothing unbelievable about not using guns that you can't get bullets for.
Marines do lose equipment and soldiers all the time, and at the very least, they expend their ammunition and have to replace it. It's far easier to raid PDFs and IG supply ships for Autocannon ammo than it is to raid other Space Marines, hoping to hit a jackpot supply of Cyclone ammunition.
What are the Techmarines doing? Probably spending their time repairing as much equipment as they can. Fixing armor, fixing vehicles, etc. Fixing spaceships even, since there's no Imperial dock that's going to repair and refit their ships, and if they try to go for a Chaos one, there's a half decent chance that some other Chaos warband is going to take their ship or scrap it for parts. Techmarines will know their supply chain is busted, so anything that becomes too complicated to maintain get's dropped in favor of equipment with easier logistics.
So why do they have Reaper Autocannons instead of regular ones?
Why don't they have Multimeltas, which IG has in spades?
Reaper Autocannons might use ammunition that's easy to manufacture, for whatever reason. Low tech ammo for a low tech gun. Multimeltas might not be as common for IG as you think, and iirc they're not available in non-vehicle mounted variants. It's possible that the difficult part about the Multimelta is feeding it power, and the backpack allowing it to be man-portable is the tricky part. I don't think it's a coincidence that the standard CSM Heavy Weapons (up until the Rotor Cannon) were the same weapons that IG squads carried (minus the mortar, because no CSM wants to be part of a mortar team).
The hand waving by you is simply amazing.
And your lack of imagination and counterargument is predictable.
The supply chain for renegades is completely different to that of loyalists. They have to resort to piracy, self manufacture, and risky trading with other chaos forces. It should be totally understandable that, after a brief time of turning traitor, some of their equipment falls out of favor.
It isn't I lack imagination, it's that you lack logic even for a fictional setting. You'd have to believe all Techmarines are bad at their jobs the minute they go to Chaos, nothing can be customized outside just Autocannons, all Forge Worlds know the Chapter turned rogue, all the equipment from Marines they kill blow up, and of course that's just equipment we are talking about! Let's not forget Apothecaries all die when a Chapter goes off the rails. Oh and Rogue Chapter Masters just aren't as inspirational and Chaps forgot they had Jump Packs.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: . . . it's that you lack logic even for a fictional setting.
Perhaps you can draft up and propose a plan to the US military for the wide scale adoption of weapons that have no guaranteed supply chain. Perhaps the top fighter jets should use missiles manufactured out of Russia, does that sound good?
My initial reaction without reading all five pages is "Don't be silly. Tacs aren't going to 2 wounds, they're going to Legends."
And now back to the context at hand: doesn't the lore for Chaos include them having entire forge-worlds in the Eye of Terror? They can justify any weapon system GW can dream up.
^Sure, but there's no reason those weapons would be 1 for 1 matches with loyalist stuff, and recent renegades might not be deemed important enough to have access to the good stuff. It's totally possible that the Black Legion gets first dibs or whatever.
Highly unlikely. Tacs would then outshine Restartes. Can't have that happening.
You are probably right. Still, the Play on Table Top 9th ed battle report classic vs primaris marines that just came out on Pateron (I think they put it up on youtube a day or so later) shows how close matches between the two CAN BE
VladimirHerzog wrote: So how has this thread gone from : Tacticals might (should) have two wounds to : CSM have a hard time replenishing their resources so they stop using weapons/units even though the fluff says they still use them?
Personally i think normal marines (and csm) should stay at 1wounds and keep their flexibility vs the primaris (gear options).
If anything deserves 2w its cult marines and chosen to mirror the primaris.
Then make chosen a troops choice so that the non cult legions can have a 2W troops option. Even the playing field with loyalists. Sounds like a plan. Doubt gw would do it though.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: . . . it's that you lack logic even for a fictional setting.
Perhaps you can draft up and propose a plan to the US military for the wide scale adoption of weapons that have no guaranteed supply chain. Perhaps the top fighter jets should use missiles manufactured out of Russia, does that sound good?
