Insectum7 wrote:

Instead, give Primaris 1W and toughness 5. Then change the wound chart back to what it was before 8th. Lasguns would be just as effective against Intercessors as they are now, but S4 weapons would get a boost against them. That would put most core infantry back in a better alignment with each other.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Instead, give Primaris 1W and toughness 5. Then change the wound chart back to what it was before 8th. Lasguns would be just as effective against Intercessors as they are now, but S4 weapons would get a boost against them. That would put most core infantry back in a better alignment with each other.

It isn't always about lasguns...(it almost never is)

This sort of change means an asscan goes from 66% of a Primaris to 133% of one.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Spoiler:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Though the normal Frag Missile is D6 shots, the Cyclone Frag mode is 2D3, so although Krak mode has the same stats as two Krak missiles, the Frag does not, otherwise it would be 2D6. Even if the stats were the same, that still doesn't mean the ammunition is interchangeable, for whatever reason.

"It just doesn't" is a valid reason if maintenance is poor for lacking the former locgistical advantages a chapter had when it was part of the Imperium. They're on the run, no fortress monasteries, no ties to any Forge Worlds or manufacturing bases. How long do you think fancy equipment works when you can't maintain it?

It's been 2 blasts until 8th so clearly they've been the same. Also you'd have a point if killing other Marines for their equipment didn't exist. However it does, so you're totally incorrect.

So basically, you have to go on the belief that Techmarines are incompetent once they turn to Chaos, without being as tied to rules they can't maintain their equipment let alone fix it, the equipment that they use is wildly different from what they're looting from Imperial Guard and they absolutely cannot modify it outside JUST Autocannons, and of course they absolutely no extra equipment or anything they looted from Loyalists. OH and Marines suck at battle plans and therefore lose equipment and Soldiers all the time.

Even in a fictional setting that's just unbelievable.

There's nothing unbelievable about not using guns that you can't get bullets for.

Marines do lose equipment and soldiers all the time, and at the very least, they expend their ammunition and have to replace it. It's far easier to raid PDFs and IG supply ships for Autocannon ammo than it is to raid other Space Marines, hoping to hit a jackpot supply of Cyclone ammunition.

What are the Techmarines doing? Probably spending their time repairing as much equipment as they can. Fixing armor, fixing vehicles, etc. Fixing spaceships even, since there's no Imperial dock that's going to repair and refit their ships, and if they try to go for a Chaos one, there's a half decent chance that some other Chaos warband is going to take their ship or scrap it for parts. Techmarines will know their supply chain is busted, so anything that becomes too complicated to maintain get's dropped in favor of equipment with easier logistics.

So why do they have Reaper Autocannons instead of regular ones?

Why don't they have Multimeltas, which IG has in spades?

Reaper Autocannons might use ammunition that's easy to manufacture, for whatever reason. Low tech ammo for a low tech gun. Multimeltas might not be as common for IG as you think, and iirc they're not available in non-vehicle mounted variants. It's possible that the difficult part about the Multimelta is feeding it power, and the backpack allowing it to be man-portable is the tricky part. I don't think it's a coincidence that the standard CSM Heavy Weapons (up until the Rotor Cannon) were the same weapons that IG squads carried (minus the mortar, because no CSM wants to be part of a mortar team).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
[spoiler]

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Though the normal Frag Missile is D6 shots, the Cyclone Frag mode is 2D3, so although Krak mode has the same stats as two Krak missiles, the Frag does not, otherwise it would be 2D6. Even if the stats were the same, that still doesn't mean the ammunition is interchangeable, for whatever reason.

"It just doesn't" is a valid reason if maintenance is poor for lacking the former locgistical advantages a chapter had when it was part of the Imperium. They're on the run, no fortress monasteries, no ties to any Forge Worlds or manufacturing bases. How long do you think fancy equipment works when you can't maintain it?

It's been 2 blasts until 8th so clearly they've been the same. Also you'd have a point if killing other Marines for their equipment didn't exist. However it does, so you're totally incorrect.

So basically, you have to go on the belief that Techmarines are incompetent once they turn to Chaos, without being as tied to rules they can't maintain their equipment let alone fix it, the equipment that they use is wildly different from what they're looting from Imperial Guard and they absolutely cannot modify it outside JUST Autocannons, and of course they absolutely no extra equipment or anything they looted from Loyalists. OH and Marines suck at battle plans and therefore lose equipment and Soldiers all the time.

Even in a fictional setting that's just unbelievable.

There's nothing unbelievable about not using guns that you can't get bullets for.

Marines do lose equipment and soldiers all the time, and at the very least, they expend their ammunition and have to replace it. It's far easier to raid PDFs and IG supply ships for Autocannon ammo than it is to raid other Space Marines, hoping to hit a jackpot supply of Cyclone ammunition.

What are the Techmarines doing? Probably spending their time repairing as much equipment as they can. Fixing armor, fixing vehicles, etc. Fixing spaceships even, since there's no Imperial dock that's going to repair and refit their ships, and if they try to go for a Chaos one, there's a half decent chance that some other Chaos warband is going to take their ship or scrap it for parts. Techmarines will know their supply chain is busted, so anything that becomes too complicated to maintain get's dropped in favor of equipment with easier logistics.

So why do they have Reaper Autocannons instead of regular ones?

Why don't they have Multimeltas, which IG has in spades?

Reaper Autocannons might use ammunition that's easy to manufacture, for whatever reason. Low tech ammo for a low tech gun. Multimeltas might not be as common for IG as you think, and iirc they're not available in non-vehicle mounted variants. It's possible that the difficult part about the Multimelta is feeding it power, and the backpack allowing it to be man-portable is the tricky part. I don't think it's a coincidence that the standard CSM Heavy Weapons (up until the Rotor Cannon) were the same weapons that IG squads carried (minus the mortar, because no CSM wants to be part of a mortar team).

The hand waving by you is simply amazing.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
[spoiler]

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Though the normal Frag Missile is D6 shots, the Cyclone Frag mode is 2D3, so although Krak mode has the same stats as two Krak missiles, the Frag does not, otherwise it would be 2D6. Even if the stats were the same, that still doesn't mean the ammunition is interchangeable, for whatever reason.

"It just doesn't" is a valid reason if maintenance is poor for lacking the former locgistical advantages a chapter had when it was part of the Imperium. They're on the run, no fortress monasteries, no ties to any Forge Worlds or manufacturing bases. How long do you think fancy equipment works when you can't maintain it?

It's been 2 blasts until 8th so clearly they've been the same. Also you'd have a point if killing other Marines for their equipment didn't exist. However it does, so you're totally incorrect.

So basically, you have to go on the belief that Techmarines are incompetent once they turn to Chaos, without being as tied to rules they can't maintain their equipment let alone fix it, the equipment that they use is wildly different from what they're looting from Imperial Guard and they absolutely cannot modify it outside JUST Autocannons, and of course they absolutely no extra equipment or anything they looted from Loyalists. OH and Marines suck at battle plans and therefore lose equipment and Soldiers all the time.

Even in a fictional setting that's just unbelievable.

There's nothing unbelievable about not using guns that you can't get bullets for.

Marines do lose equipment and soldiers all the time, and at the very least, they expend their ammunition and have to replace it. It's far easier to raid PDFs and IG supply ships for Autocannon ammo than it is to raid other Space Marines, hoping to hit a jackpot supply of Cyclone ammunition.

What are the Techmarines doing? Probably spending their time repairing as much equipment as they can. Fixing armor, fixing vehicles, etc. Fixing spaceships even, since there's no Imperial dock that's going to repair and refit their ships, and if they try to go for a Chaos one, there's a half decent chance that some other Chaos warband is going to take their ship or scrap it for parts. Techmarines will know their supply chain is busted, so anything that becomes too complicated to maintain get's dropped in favor of equipment with easier logistics.

So why do they have Reaper Autocannons instead of regular ones?

Why don't they have Multimeltas, which IG has in spades?

Reaper Autocannons might use ammunition that's easy to manufacture, for whatever reason. Low tech ammo for a low tech gun. Multimeltas might not be as common for IG as you think, and iirc they're not available in non-vehicle mounted variants. It's possible that the difficult part about the Multimelta is feeding it power, and the backpack allowing it to be man-portable is the tricky part. I don't think it's a coincidence that the standard CSM Heavy Weapons (up until the Rotor Cannon) were the same weapons that IG squads carried (minus the mortar, because no CSM wants to be part of a mortar team).

The hand waving by you is simply amazing.

And your lack of imagination and counterargument is predictable.

The supply chain for renegades is completely different to that of loyalists. They have to resort to piracy, self manufacture, and risky trading with other chaos forces. It should be totally understandable that, after a brief time of turning traitor, some of their equipment falls out of favor.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
. . . it's that you lack logic even for a fictional setting.

 Strg Alt wrote:
@ OP:

Highly unlikely. Tacs would then outshine Restartes. Can't have that happening.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
So how has this thread gone from : Tacticals might (should) have two wounds to : CSM have a hard time replenishing their resources so they stop using weapons/units even though the fluff says they still use them?

Personally i think normal marines (and csm) should stay at 1wounds and keep their flexibility vs the primaris (gear options).

If anything deserves 2w its cult marines and chosen to mirror the primaris.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
. . . it's that you lack logic even for a fictional setting.

Perhaps you can draft up and propose a plan to the US military for the wide scale adoption of weapons that have no guaranteed supply chain. Perhaps the top fighter jets should use missiles manufactured out of Russia, does that sound good?