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Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Galas wrote:
I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.

Too many chaos space marine players want to play . . . Renegade Chaos Space marines.
Why would you think the Chaos Space Marine codex wouldn't represent that? Since it's inception, the Chaos Codex runs the gamut from recent renegades to 10000 year veterans, and it's done that best through robust options for the units allowing you to customize them into the force that you want. The NuHavocs are a step into the current GW paradigm of bifurcating up your army based on the separate kits that they sell.

Older way was better. If you wanted Renegades, you paid for your basic CSM bodies and your four Heavy weapons. If you wanted Veterans, you bought them Veteran upgrades and gave them effective Marks for the role you want them for. The single entry could be:

1: Tough, elite fire support through Tank Hunters and Mark of Nurgle for increased toughness.
2: Storm Troopers with Special Weapons and Assault gear, plus the Mark of Khorne and Infiltrators (I think they could get Infiltrators) 15 models iirc, too.
3: Cheap Renegades who mirror their loyalist past with 10 bodies and autocannons/HBs that they've raided from Guardsmen.
4: Or you could basically build the new Havoc unit with 5 dudes and some Heavy Weapons.

The new Havocs are a boring unit entry.

Your desire appears to be "Make it more Chaos-ey" by making the unit more homogenous in it's manifestation. I guess all Chaos Marines who like firepower all organize themselves in the same way across all warbands, for some arbitrary reason. That's stupid. The more time they spend as Chaos marines the more they should be able to diverge. Revert Havocs to the older style entry and options, give them the option for "Heavy Armor" or whatever to cover Move-and-fire if you want to pay for it, and call it a day.

I like this, very 3.5, but I have one problem with it. It relies too heavily on marks. While I agree that marks should be more meaningful again, there should be some kind of bonus for legions that are aligned chaos undivided like the Night Lords. There should be some kind of bonus for playing a legion like them fluffy, without marks and daemonic units, except maybe warp talons (warp talons would be like furies in 3.5 for Night Lords). Maybe an additional part of their legion trait for going full godless?
Except that now infringes on the Night Lords that did follow gods afterwords in the 10,000 years afterwords. Not all of them stayed godless afterwords.
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Galas wrote:
I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.

Too many chaos space marine players want to play . . . Renegade Chaos Space marines.
Why would you think the Chaos Space Marine codex wouldn't represent that? Since it's inception, the Chaos Codex runs the gamut from recent renegades to 10000 year veterans, and it's done that best through robust options for the units allowing you to customize them into the force that you want. The NuHavocs are a step into the current GW paradigm of bifurcating up your army based on the separate kits that they sell.

Older way was better. If you wanted Renegades, you paid for your basic CSM bodies and your four Heavy weapons. If you wanted Veterans, you bought them Veteran upgrades and gave them effective Marks for the role you want them for. The single entry could be:

1: Tough, elite fire support through Tank Hunters and Mark of Nurgle for increased toughness.
2: Storm Troopers with Special Weapons and Assault gear, plus the Mark of Khorne and Infiltrators (I think they could get Infiltrators) 15 models iirc, too.
3: Cheap Renegades who mirror their loyalist past with 10 bodies and autocannons/HBs that they've raided from Guardsmen.
4: Or you could basically build the new Havoc unit with 5 dudes and some Heavy Weapons.

The new Havocs are a boring unit entry.

Your desire appears to be "Make it more Chaos-ey" by making the unit more homogenous in it's manifestation. I guess all Chaos Marines who like firepower all organize themselves in the same way across all warbands, for some arbitrary reason. That's stupid. The more time they spend as Chaos marines the more they should be able to diverge. Revert Havocs to the older style entry and options, give them the option for "Heavy Armor" or whatever to cover Move-and-fire if you want to pay for it, and call it a day.

I like this, very 3.5, but I have one problem with it. It relies too heavily on marks. While I agree that marks should be more meaningful again, there should be some kind of bonus for legions that are aligned chaos undivided like the Night Lords. There should be some kind of bonus for playing a legion like them fluffy, without marks and daemonic units, except maybe warp talons (warp talons would be like furies in 3.5 for Night Lords). Maybe an additional part of their legion trait for going full godless?
There was the Mark of Chaos Undivided right? I think the benefit was kinda lackluster, like re-roll Ld checks or something. I'd be very open to options that are not specifically Marks though.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Galas wrote:
I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.

Too many chaos space marine players want to play . . . Renegade Chaos Space marines.
Why would you think the Chaos Space Marine codex wouldn't represent that? Since it's inception, the Chaos Codex runs the gamut from recent renegades to 10000 year veterans, and it's done that best through robust options for the units allowing you to customize them into the force that you want. The NuHavocs are a step into the current GW paradigm of bifurcating up your army based on the separate kits that they sell.

Older way was better. If you wanted Renegades, you paid for your basic CSM bodies and your four Heavy weapons. If you wanted Veterans, you bought them Veteran upgrades and gave them effective Marks for the role you want them for. The single entry could be:

1: Tough, elite fire support through Tank Hunters and Mark of Nurgle for increased toughness.
2: Storm Troopers with Special Weapons and Assault gear, plus the Mark of Khorne and Infiltrators (I think they could get Infiltrators) 15 models iirc, too.
3: Cheap Renegades who mirror their loyalist past with 10 bodies and autocannons/HBs that they've raided from Guardsmen.
4: Or you could basically build the new Havoc unit with 5 dudes and some Heavy Weapons.

The new Havocs are a boring unit entry.

Your desire appears to be "Make it more Chaos-ey" by making the unit more homogenous in it's manifestation. I guess all Chaos Marines who like firepower all organize themselves in the same way across all warbands, for some arbitrary reason. That's stupid. The more time they spend as Chaos marines the more they should be able to diverge. Revert Havocs to the older style entry and options, give them the option for "Heavy Armor" or whatever to cover Move-and-fire if you want to pay for it, and call it a day.

I like this, very 3.5, but I have one problem with it. It relies too heavily on marks. While I agree that marks should be more meaningful again, there should be some kind of bonus for legions that are aligned chaos undivided like the Night Lords. There should be some kind of bonus for playing a legion like them fluffy, without marks and daemonic units, except maybe warp talons (warp talons would be like furies in 3.5 for Night Lords). Maybe an additional part of their legion trait for going full godless?

Except that now infringes on the Night Lords that did follow gods afterwords in the 10,000 years afterwords. Not all of them stayed godless afterwords.

You could still use daemons and the like, you just wouldn't get the extra bonus. Everything shouldn't be free. It's the price you pay for straying from Curze's vision for the legion. And don't forget Sevatar's opinion on daemons either (or Talos telling all four Chaos Gods and Abaddon exactly what they could do with their offers to their faces).

Insectum7 wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Galas wrote:
I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.

Too many chaos space marine players want to play . . . Renegade Chaos Space marines.
Why would you think the Chaos Space Marine codex wouldn't represent that? Since it's inception, the Chaos Codex runs the gamut from recent renegades to 10000 year veterans, and it's done that best through robust options for the units allowing you to customize them into the force that you want. The NuHavocs are a step into the current GW paradigm of bifurcating up your army based on the separate kits that they sell.

Older way was better. If you wanted Renegades, you paid for your basic CSM bodies and your four Heavy weapons. If you wanted Veterans, you bought them Veteran upgrades and gave them effective Marks for the role you want them for. The single entry could be:

1: Tough, elite fire support through Tank Hunters and Mark of Nurgle for increased toughness.
2: Storm Troopers with Special Weapons and Assault gear, plus the Mark of Khorne and Infiltrators (I think they could get Infiltrators) 15 models iirc, too.
3: Cheap Renegades who mirror their loyalist past with 10 bodies and autocannons/HBs that they've raided from Guardsmen.
4: Or you could basically build the new Havoc unit with 5 dudes and some Heavy Weapons.

The new Havocs are a boring unit entry.

Your desire appears to be "Make it more Chaos-ey" by making the unit more homogenous in it's manifestation. I guess all Chaos Marines who like firepower all organize themselves in the same way across all warbands, for some arbitrary reason. That's stupid. The more time they spend as Chaos marines the more they should be able to diverge. Revert Havocs to the older style entry and options, give them the option for "Heavy Armor" or whatever to cover Move-and-fire if you want to pay for it, and call it a day.

I like this, very 3.5, but I have one problem with it. It relies too heavily on marks. While I agree that marks should be more meaningful again, there should be some kind of bonus for legions that are aligned chaos undivided like the Night Lords. There should be some kind of bonus for playing a legion like them fluffy, without marks and daemonic units, except maybe warp talons (warp talons would be like furies in 3.5 for Night Lords). Maybe an additional part of their legion trait for going full godless?

There was the Mark of Chaos Undivided right? I think the benefit was kinda lackluster, like re-roll Ld checks or something. I'd be very open to options that are not specifically Marks though.

Making the Mark of Chaos Undivided good could definitely be an option.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:
 Galas wrote:
I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.

Too many chaos space marine players want to play . . . Renegade Chaos Space marines.
Why would you think the Chaos Space Marine codex wouldn't represent that?

Because Renegade and Heretic Chapters wouldn't be so far removed from Loyalist organization in the first place that the CSM codex has a place to represent them. You lose options based on that arbitrary difference, like all the sudden your Techmarines can't fix your can't your Land Speeders but you can suddenly get a bunch of Daemon Engines. Speaking of which, your Dreadnoughts lost their Assault Cannons and are super fleshy really fast! Oh and they're all automatically crazed just because. OH and your Ironclads don't work anymore by the way. Those Hurricane Bolters on your Land Raider? They don't work either, better install those Lascannons fast! Oh and all your Apothecaries are dead! Even though they exist in fluff and we only have Huron as he is now thanks to one of them.

It's simply bad writing to try and encompass them when, in reality, you can do a better job of it via just using the main Marine codex and replacing keywords for alliances. Let the CSM actually focus on making a warped army of warped super soldiers instead of "same as Loyalist but with spikes".

That's why your old Havocs were gak writing. The real boring entry is the one that's a literal copycat of the good guys with the only caveat being you get Special Weapons. New ones instead don't embrace that idea and are their own warped super soldier. Now is the entry perfect? Of course not. The Champ needs to be able to carry a heavy weapon, you're stuck at 5 dudes, and the base body should really be cheaper as it has to buy the weapon. However, I'll take that over the nonsense that has kept CSM a boring codex. We need less MEQ and more diverse statlines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/23 04:57:43


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in de
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Galas wrote:
I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.

Too many chaos space marine players want to play . . . Renegade Chaos Space marines.
Why would you think the Chaos Space Marine codex wouldn't represent that?

Because Renegade and Heretic Chapters wouldn't be so far removed from Loyalist organization in the first place that the CSM codex has a place to represent them. You lose options based on that arbitrary difference, like all the sudden your Techmarines can't fix your can't your Land Speeders but you can suddenly get a bunch of Daemon Engines. Speaking of which, your Dreadnoughts lost their Assault Cannons and are super fleshy really fast! Oh and they're all automatically crazed just because. OH and your Ironclads don't work anymore by the way. Those Hurricane Bolters on your Land Raider? They don't work either, better install those Lascannons fast! Oh and all your Apothecaries are dead! Even though they exist in fluff and we only have Huron as he is now thanks to one of them.

It's simply bad writing to try and encompass them when, in reality, you can do a better job of it via just using the main Marine codex and replacing keywords for alliances. Let the CSM actually focus on making a warped army of warped super soldiers instead of "same as Loyalist but with spikes".

That's why your old Havocs were gak writing. The real boring entry is the one that's a literal copycat of the good guys with the only caveat being you get Special Weapons. New ones instead don't embrace that idea and are their own warped super soldier. Now is the entry perfect? Of course not. The Champ needs to be able to carry a heavy weapon, you're stuck at 5 dudes, and the base body should really be cheaper as it has to buy the weapon. However, I'll take that over the nonsense that has kept CSM a boring codex. We need less MEQ and more diverse statlines.


It gets pretty dump when GW even writes the fluff as if Renegades become CSM immediately, with Daemon Engines and everything. In war of the Spider the newly turned Marines suddenly use Heldrakes and only Kharybdis Droppods, because that's what you're allowed to play with CSM...

On the other hand you had the Crimson Slaughter Codex in 6th that told you several times that these specialize in Droppods assaults, even after they turned on the Imperium. Understandably CSM players were like... Well, give us the damn things then.
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Galas wrote:
I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.

Too many chaos space marine players want to play . . . Renegade Chaos Space marines.
Why would you think the Chaos Space Marine codex wouldn't represent that?

Because Renegade and Heretic Chapters wouldn't be so far removed from Loyalist organization in the first place that the CSM codex has a place to represent them. You lose options based on that arbitrary difference, like all the sudden your Techmarines can't fix your can't your Land Speeders but you can suddenly get a bunch of Daemon Engines. Speaking of which, your Dreadnoughts lost their Assault Cannons and are super fleshy really fast! Oh and they're all automatically crazed just because. OH and your Ironclads don't work anymore by the way. Those Hurricane Bolters on your Land Raider? They don't work either, better install those Lascannons fast! Oh and all your Apothecaries are dead! Even though they exist in fluff and we only have Huron as he is now thanks to one of them.

It's simply bad writing to try and encompass them when, in reality, you can do a better job of it via just using the main Marine codex and replacing keywords for alliances. Let the CSM actually focus on making a warped army of warped super soldiers instead of "same as Loyalist but with spikes".

That's why your old Havocs were gak writing. The real boring entry is the one that's a literal copycat of the good guys with the only caveat being you get Special Weapons. New ones instead don't embrace that idea and are their own warped super soldier. Now is the entry perfect? Of course not. The Champ needs to be able to carry a heavy weapon, you're stuck at 5 dudes, and the base body should really be cheaper as it has to buy the weapon. However, I'll take that over the nonsense that has kept CSM a boring codex. We need less MEQ and more diverse statlines.
Mhm hmm, so you've replaced "evil Devastators" (that could take chainswords, Marks, Veteran abilities, specials and 10+ squads) with "Obliterators-lite" that is even more strictly regimented than the loyalist version.

It's wasn't "gak writing" by GW, it's just you not feeling like you could "write" the unit yourself, even when they explicitly gave you the tools to do it. In a similar vein of "Renegades don't immediately get Daemon Engines", one would assume that range-focused CSMs don't immediately become their own type of supersoldier, and if you wanted your focused supersoldiers you could build them with the old unit entry anyways.

The current Havocs are just what, T5 and able to move and fire? That's the extent of the substance you're arguing for, aside from your strange desire to limit options for a unit in order to feel special. The old format is a superior type of unit entry, hands down. It covered generic CSMs to supersoldiers, customizeable to your choosing.


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator




The Void

There would be nothing wrong with the old "boring" units if we had options to upgrade them like we did back in 3.5.

Ideally, there would be a CSM statline that you could upgrade, and taking it in a different slot opened up more options. Imagine if you had CSM, and then you could choose some mix of the following upgrades:

- Marks that affect stats/special rules
- Legion specific upgrades (mainly for the undivided legions, like bionics for IW, since they don't get marks)
- A veteran skill (generally an upgrade to a stat, or a special rule)

And then which Force Org slot you take it in matters too.

- Elite slot: Allows special melee weapons and a second veteran skill
- Fast slot: Allows jump packs or outflank or infiltrate
- Heavy slot: Allows more heavy weapons

The available veteran skills could also vary by what slot it was in.

A system like this would allow you to represent recent renegades, pirates, original traitors, cult marines, etc. It wouldn't be boring.

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
There would be nothing wrong with the old "boring" units if we had options to upgrade them like we did back in 3.5.

Ideally, there would be a CSM statline that you could upgrade, and taking it in a different slot opened up more options. Imagine if you had CSM, and then you could choose some mix of the following upgrades:

- Marks that affect stats/special rules
- Legion specific upgrades (mainly for the undivided legions, like bionics for IW, since they don't get marks)
- A veteran skill (generally an upgrade to a stat, or a special rule)

And then which Force Org slot you take it in matters too.

- Elite slot: Allows special melee weapons and a second veteran skill
- Fast slot: Allows jump packs or outflank or infiltrate
- Heavy slot: Allows more heavy weapons

The available veteran skills could also vary by what slot it was in.

A system like this would allow you to represent recent renegades, pirates, original traitors, cult marines, etc. It wouldn't be boring.


Seconded, and GW has shown to actually be able to do so, in the past, but it would take more time and money to actually think out such rules rather then write genereric legion renegade warband dex 10.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



NE Ohio, USA

What's all this wailing, gnashing of teeth & rancor about CSM equipment got to do with somebody fantasizing about GW giving Loyalist old marines a 2nd wound come 9th ed?

I mean, I realize that the answer to the original question doesn't rate more than about a dozen words, but sheesh, talk about going off topic....
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Galas wrote:
I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.

Too many chaos space marine players want to play Horus Heresy chaos or Renegade Chaos Space marines. And thats absolutely fine, but the more Chaos Space Marines departure from being loyalist but evil and more into being proper chaotic guys that have been trapped for 10.000 years in the galaxy equivalent of your anus after eating way too much on a Taco Bell, the better they'll be as a faction with proper identity and tactics.

"Devastators but with chainswords" doesn't fly in the second decade of the two thousands, guys.

In an ideal world you would have a Chaos Renegades codex for those kind of players but if I have to chose, I very much prefer a further departure into the chaotic realm for chaos marines, just like thousand sons and death guard codex have a much stronger identity both fluff and gameplay wise.


I Agree. heck someone mentioned predators etc, and yeah in an ideal world, I'd love to see GW create a warped and mutated varient of those units (much like the hellbrute compared to the dreadnought) chaos vehicles should all be "half way to a deamon engine"

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






BrianDavion wrote:
 Galas wrote:
I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.

Too many chaos space marine players want to play Horus Heresy chaos or Renegade Chaos Space marines. And thats absolutely fine, but the more Chaos Space Marines departure from being loyalist but evil and more into being proper chaotic guys that have been trapped for 10.000 years in the galaxy equivalent of your anus after eating way too much on a Taco Bell, the better they'll be as a faction with proper identity and tactics.

"Devastators but with chainswords" doesn't fly in the second decade of the two thousands, guys.

In an ideal world you would have a Chaos Renegades codex for those kind of players but if I have to chose, I very much prefer a further departure into the chaotic realm for chaos marines, just like thousand sons and death guard codex have a much stronger identity both fluff and gameplay wise.


I Agree. heck someone mentioned predators etc, and yeah in an ideal world, I'd love to see GW create a warped and mutated varient of those units (much like the hellbrute compared to the dreadnought) chaos vehicles should all be "half way to a deamon engine"
And those who want to run their models as less corrupted veterans? This is why some of the older codexes were so great, you had the options for both because of the arrangement of upgrades. If you wanted a spiky Predator you could do that, and if you wanted a corrupted and mutated Predator you could do that too. The more options you get to modify your units, the better. I don't recall what the vehicle options for Chaos are today, but I'm guessing they're pretty slim.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/23 15:13:14


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





Imo chaos marines should look very different.

Actual veterans of the long war should look like bladeguard. Marines that fought in the heresy, plenty of experience, hard to kill, with complete wargear freedom. As in 'can take anything from bolt pistol and chainsword to missile launcher and power fist'.

Then there should be 1 wound initiates that represent their attempts at replacing losses.

The army should have the best marines in the game and the worst marines in the game.

While normal marines sit between those two extremes.
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Spoiler:
 Galas wrote:
I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.

Too many chaos space marine players want to play Horus Heresy chaos or Renegade Chaos Space marines. And thats absolutely fine, but the more Chaos Space Marines departure from being loyalist but evil and more into being proper chaotic guys that have been trapped for 10.000 years in the galaxy equivalent of your anus after eating way too much on a Taco Bell, the better they'll be as a faction with proper identity and tactics.

"Devastators but with chainswords" doesn't fly in the second decade of the two thousands, guys.

In an ideal world you would have a Chaos Renegades codex for those kind of players but if I have to chose, I very much prefer a further departure into the chaotic realm for chaos marines, just like thousand sons and death guard codex have a much stronger identity both fluff and gameplay wise.


I Agree. heck someone mentioned predators etc, and yeah in an ideal world, I'd love to see GW create a warped and mutated varient of those units (much like the hellbrute compared to the dreadnought) chaos vehicles should all be "half way to a deamon engine"
And those who want to run their models as less corrupted veterans? This is why some of the older codexes were so great, you had the options for both because of the arrangement of upgrades. If you wanted a spiky Predator you could do that, and if you wanted a corrupted and mutated Predator you could do that too. The more options you get to modify your units, the better. I don't recall what the vehicle options for Chaos are today, but I'm guessing they're pretty slim.

^^^^This. As I'm constantly having to point out all csm aren't chaos worshipping mutants. Iron Warriors are known to chop off entire limbs because they show signs of mutation, and Night Lords have been described in their fluff to avoid chaos worship and view it as a sign of weakness in others since the 2nd edition Chaos codex. There should be options to represent legions that don't swear fealty to the Chaos Gods as well as for those that do.

Hellebore wrote:Imo chaos marines should look very different.

Actual veterans of the long war should look like bladeguard. Marines that fought in the heresy, plenty of experience, hard to kill, with complete wargear freedom. As in 'can take anything from bolt pistol and chainsword to missile launcher and power fist'.

Then there should be 1 wound initiates that represent their attempts at replacing losses.

The army should have the best marines in the game and the worst marines in the game.

While normal marines sit between those two extremes.

Well, gw has certainly gotten the "worst marines in the game" half down pat for csm.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I love how since the 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codes, CSMs have very strictly followed the Codex Astartes. Can't have 2 weapons unless the full Codex-approved 10 men are there.

Shame we can't use Combat Squads.

   
Made in us
Unbalanced Fanatic






 Arachnofiend wrote:
Never ceases to amaze me how quickly people forgot that the initial primaris release sucked...

I wouldn't hold my breath for tacs getting two wounds, though.
That's becuase the 2/3rds of 8th was about getting as many bodies as possible on the board to take advantage of stratagem and reroll aura scale. I mean, It's not like tacs were much better except as 3+ save scouts. Marine players only wanted to get out as many weak shots as possible out to buff them with gulliman.

9th will be all about msu and elite armies, so tacs will go from 3+ save scouts to 1W 1A primaris.
   
Made in gb
Lesser Daemon of Chaos





West Yorkshire

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Well, gw has certainly gotten the "worst marines in the game" half down pat for csm.


This wouldn't feel so egregious if Space marines didn't get so many intrinsic special rules that can be applied no matter the opponent. Combat Squads, ATSKNF, the new angels of death rules and even doctrines.

What do CSM get to measure up? A rule that only applies in close combat with imperial units and an equivalent to Angels of death, and even that one only because I'm sure only applying it to regular space marines would have been seen as blatant favouritism. And for those that would say that CSM are OK because they are 1pt cheaper, they're not... they're really not...
Even just getting an equivalent to the combat squad rule would make CSM more versatile.

5000pts W4/ D0/ L5
5000pts W10/ D2/ L7
 
   
Made in gb
Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine





Has this turned into a 'Chaos marines want to have everything Space Marines have, and be better, but also be different and have everything that defines being Chaos because reasons' wishlist?

 
   
Made in gb
Lesser Daemon of Chaos





West Yorkshire

 BroodSpawn wrote:
Has this turned into a 'Chaos marines want to have everything Space Marines have, and be better, but also be different and have everything that defines being Chaos because reasons' wishlist?


No, not everything has to perfectly mirror, but considering that they effectively carry out combat in the same manner, it shouldn't be unthinkable that they should at least have some equivalence with regards to rules.
If you want a suggestion on how they can be similar but functionally different, consider the following:

CSM with Combat squads:

Take a full 20 man squad, split into 4 x 5 man squads. because chaos can swap boltguns for chainswords, you can have 2 x 5 man squads with chainswords to move agressively up field, 1 x 5 man bolter squad to move for an objective and have you final squad with either 2 heavy weapons to sit back and chip away at priority targets or take special weapons and make an agressive advance towards a particular objective.

Same rule, but can be utilized differently.

Change Death to the false emperor to Despoilers of the galaxy and just straight up grant an additional hit on a 6+ in shooting and melee.

Now chaos space marines present a unique threat to fight as they can put out a potentially unprecedented heavy number of hits and severely diminish a unit..

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 BroodSpawn wrote:
Has this turned into a 'Chaos marines want to have everything Space Marines have, and be better, but also be different and have everything that defines being Chaos because reasons' wishlist?
You just described Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Deathwatch and Dark Angels. . .

Chaos doesn't have everything Space Marines have. Like, not even close. But the basic Chaos Space Marine should vary between a bad Space Marine, and a really good Space Marine, plus potential dedication to a Chaos power.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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 Insectum7 wrote:
 Galas wrote:
I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.

Too many chaos space marine players want to play . . . Renegade Chaos Space marines.
Why would you think the Chaos Space Marine codex wouldn't represent that? Since it's inception, the Chaos Codex runs the gamut from recent renegades to 10000 year veterans, and it's done that best through robust options for the units allowing you to customize them into the force that you want. The NuHavocs are a step into the current GW paradigm of bifurcating up your army based on the separate kits that they sell.

Older way was better. If you wanted Renegades, you paid for your basic CSM bodies and your four Heavy weapons. If you wanted Veterans, you bought them Veteran upgrades and gave them effective Marks for the role you want them for. The single entry could be:

1: Tough, elite fire support through Tank Hunters and Mark of Nurgle for increased toughness.
2: Storm Troopers with Special Weapons and Assault gear, plus the Mark of Khorne and Infiltrators (I think they could get Infiltrators) 15 models iirc, too.
3: Cheap Renegades who mirror their loyalist past with 10 bodies and autocannons/HBs that they've raided from Guardsmen.
4: Or you could basically build the new Havoc unit with 5 dudes and some Heavy Weapons.

The new Havocs are a boring unit entry.

Your desire appears to be "Make it more Chaos-ey" by making the unit more homogenous in it's manifestation. I guess all Chaos Marines who like firepower all organize themselves in the same way across all warbands, for some arbitrary reason. That's stupid. The more time they spend as Chaos marines the more they should be able to diverge. Revert Havocs to the older style entry and options, give them the option for "Heavy Armor" or whatever to cover Move-and-fire if you want to pay for it, and call it a day.


Y'know, I get why people don't want 40K to be Horus Heresy 2.0... but I gotta say, going through the HH rules, they do an excellent job of letting you customize units in this way. I expected a game that's basically All Marines All The Time to be really homogenous and boring, but the different special abilities among the Legions combined with the freedom to stack unit-wide upgrades makes for a lot of variety.

Chaos uniquely has the scope to do that in 40K, with different Marks and upgrades. It wouldn't take that much to make a unit of renegades feel very different from a unit of Nurgle-worshipping ten-thousand-year-old legionaries.

Heck, I wouldn't be opposed to having the basic W1 Marine be the default option, and then let any CSM unit in the army upgrade to W2 to represent a veteran of the Long War, and on top of that let them buy a Mark to represent specific dedication. You can have cheap fodder CSM, hardcore veterans, and favorites of the gods in the same army without a ton of work or additional datasheets.
   
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West Yorkshire

 catbarf wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Galas wrote:
I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.

Too many chaos space marine players want to play . . . Renegade Chaos Space marines.
Why would you think the Chaos Space Marine codex wouldn't represent that? Since it's inception, the Chaos Codex runs the gamut from recent renegades to 10000 year veterans, and it's done that best through robust options for the units allowing you to customize them into the force that you want. The NuHavocs are a step into the current GW paradigm of bifurcating up your army based on the separate kits that they sell.

Older way was better. If you wanted Renegades, you paid for your basic CSM bodies and your four Heavy weapons. If you wanted Veterans, you bought them Veteran upgrades and gave them effective Marks for the role you want them for. The single entry could be:

1: Tough, elite fire support through Tank Hunters and Mark of Nurgle for increased toughness.
2: Storm Troopers with Special Weapons and Assault gear, plus the Mark of Khorne and Infiltrators (I think they could get Infiltrators) 15 models iirc, too.
3: Cheap Renegades who mirror their loyalist past with 10 bodies and autocannons/HBs that they've raided from Guardsmen.
4: Or you could basically build the new Havoc unit with 5 dudes and some Heavy Weapons.

The new Havocs are a boring unit entry.

Your desire appears to be "Make it more Chaos-ey" by making the unit more homogenous in it's manifestation. I guess all Chaos Marines who like firepower all organize themselves in the same way across all warbands, for some arbitrary reason. That's stupid. The more time they spend as Chaos marines the more they should be able to diverge. Revert Havocs to the older style entry and options, give them the option for "Heavy Armor" or whatever to cover Move-and-fire if you want to pay for it, and call it a day.


Y'know, I get why people don't want 40K to be Horus Heresy 2.0... but I gotta say, going through the HH rules, they do an excellent job of letting you customize units in this way. I expected a game that's basically All Marines All The Time to be really homogenous and boring, but the different special abilities among the Legions combined with the freedom to stack unit-wide upgrades makes for a lot of variety.

Chaos uniquely has the scope to do that in 40K, with different Marks and upgrades. It wouldn't take that much to make a unit of renegades feel very different from a unit of Nurgle-worshipping ten-thousand-year-old legionaries.

Heck, I wouldn't be opposed to having the basic W1 Marine be the default option, and then let any CSM unit in the army upgrade to W2 to represent a veteran of the Long War, and on top of that let them buy a Mark to represent specific dedication. You can have cheap fodder CSM, hardcore veterans, and favorites of the gods in the same army without a ton of work or additional datasheets.


Hell, that pretty much nails it on the head.
Literally implement these changes on Chosen (which are a pointless unit 90% of the time to begin with as they have no rules to really justify the price increase) and move them to troops.

5000pts W4/ D0/ L5
5000pts W10/ D2/ L7
 
   
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The Void

 Tristanleo wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Galas wrote:
I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.

Too many chaos space marine players want to play . . . Renegade Chaos Space marines.
Why would you think the Chaos Space Marine codex wouldn't represent that? Since it's inception, the Chaos Codex runs the gamut from recent renegades to 10000 year veterans, and it's done that best through robust options for the units allowing you to customize them into the force that you want. The NuHavocs are a step into the current GW paradigm of bifurcating up your army based on the separate kits that they sell.

Older way was better. If you wanted Renegades, you paid for your basic CSM bodies and your four Heavy weapons. If you wanted Veterans, you bought them Veteran upgrades and gave them effective Marks for the role you want them for. The single entry could be:

1: Tough, elite fire support through Tank Hunters and Mark of Nurgle for increased toughness.
2: Storm Troopers with Special Weapons and Assault gear, plus the Mark of Khorne and Infiltrators (I think they could get Infiltrators) 15 models iirc, too.
3: Cheap Renegades who mirror their loyalist past with 10 bodies and autocannons/HBs that they've raided from Guardsmen.
4: Or you could basically build the new Havoc unit with 5 dudes and some Heavy Weapons.

The new Havocs are a boring unit entry.

Your desire appears to be "Make it more Chaos-ey" by making the unit more homogenous in it's manifestation. I guess all Chaos Marines who like firepower all organize themselves in the same way across all warbands, for some arbitrary reason. That's stupid. The more time they spend as Chaos marines the more they should be able to diverge. Revert Havocs to the older style entry and options, give them the option for "Heavy Armor" or whatever to cover Move-and-fire if you want to pay for it, and call it a day.


Y'know, I get why people don't want 40K to be Horus Heresy 2.0... but I gotta say, going through the HH rules, they do an excellent job of letting you customize units in this way. I expected a game that's basically All Marines All The Time to be really homogenous and boring, but the different special abilities among the Legions combined with the freedom to stack unit-wide upgrades makes for a lot of variety.

Chaos uniquely has the scope to do that in 40K, with different Marks and upgrades. It wouldn't take that much to make a unit of renegades feel very different from a unit of Nurgle-worshipping ten-thousand-year-old legionaries.

Heck, I wouldn't be opposed to having the basic W1 Marine be the default option, and then let any CSM unit in the army upgrade to W2 to represent a veteran of the Long War, and on top of that let them buy a Mark to represent specific dedication. You can have cheap fodder CSM, hardcore veterans, and favorites of the gods in the same army without a ton of work or additional datasheets.


Hell, that pretty much nails it on the head.
Literally implement these changes on Chosen (which are a pointless unit 90% of the time to begin with as they have no rules to really justify the price increase) and move them to troops.


Or just implement it on all class MeQ infantry, so that Chosen can stay elites. Why would you only fix this for a single unit type?

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
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 Hellebore wrote:
Imo chaos marines should look very different.

Actual veterans of the long war should look like bladeguard. Marines that fought in the heresy, plenty of experience, hard to kill, with complete wargear freedom. As in 'can take anything from bolt pistol and chainsword to missile launcher and power fist'.

Then there should be 1 wound initiates that represent their attempts at replacing losses.

The army should have the best marines in the game and the worst marines in the game.

While normal marines sit between those two extremes.




I'm only posting to say I agree with this totally. If loyal marines have a relatively even set of skills across all their units, chaos marines would be the opposite and have marines all stratified and siloed to by their skills, their age, their power generally. Even in recent renegades lots of units would find that the strong and ambitious marines in a basic tac squad strike off to seek the most glory, by forming their own elite units or trying to forcibly take leadership of other squads, and other marines would decide to indulge their esoteric interests and join cults, or other marines just lounge around bullying cultists and letting their skills degrade.

possibly, in an army disciplined enough to have separate fire support units, Havocs might be the only units that have the traditional loyalist stat line. everyone else would be vastly better VotLW, or goon squads who get merc'd by heroic loyalists shouting slogans.

It's very relevant to firstborn marines getting a second wound. On one hand, mook initiates could have one wound while chosen have three, so they're respectively worse and better than properly formed loyalist units. On the other hand, if loyalist firstborn and chaos mook squads both had two wounds, then the mook squads could take a hit in other areas, like having bs4+, while still having 2w and all the other advantages over guardsmen.
   
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Sgt. Cortez 790148 10874607 wrote:

It gets pretty dump when GW even writes the fluff as if Renegades become CSM immediately, with Daemon Engines and everything. In war of the Spider the newly turned Marines suddenly use Heldrakes and only Kharybdis Droppods, because that's what you're allowed to play with CSM...

On the other hand you had the Crimson Slaughter Codex in 6th that told you several times that these specialize in Droppods assaults, even after they turned on the Imperium. Understandably CSM players were like... Well, give us the damn things then.


Maybe every space marine ship has a blast door with a sign on it saying, open this in case of going renegade. And the room behind it is full of autocannons, combi bolters etc and at the same time the opening of the door activiates a kill switch that blows up storm bolters, apothecaries, thunder cannons, razorback turrets etc.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Lesser Daemon of Chaos





West Yorkshire

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:


Or just implement it on all class MeQ infantry, so that Chosen can stay elites. Why would you only fix this for a single unit type?


Except that would defeat the point. If you're going to say implement that and leave them as elites, shouldn't the case also be made for intercessors to be moved to elites, since then they have something with a comparable statline and a better base setup?

Everybody goes on about CSM wanting to be everything marines are but chaos but refuse to acknowledge that space marines get a whole heap of stuff out of nowhere that is just put in for the sake of it whereas chaos has so much variation hinted at that GW just turns a blind eye to.
So many space marine factions have their own unique troops whereas hardly any chaos legions have units that are specifically unique to them.

5000pts W4/ D0/ L5
5000pts W10/ D2/ L7
 
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Galas wrote:
I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.

Too many chaos space marine players want to play Horus Heresy chaos or Renegade Chaos Space marines. And thats absolutely fine, but the more Chaos Space Marines departure from being loyalist but evil and more into being proper chaotic guys that have been trapped for 10.000 years in the galaxy equivalent of your anus after eating way too much on a Taco Bell, the better they'll be as a faction with proper identity and tactics.

"Devastators but with chainswords" doesn't fly in the second decade of the two thousands, guys.

In an ideal world you would have a Chaos Renegades codex for those kind of players but if I have to chose, I very much prefer a further departure into the chaotic realm for chaos marines, just like thousand sons and death guard codex have a much stronger identity both fluff and gameplay wise.


I Agree. heck someone mentioned predators etc, and yeah in an ideal world, I'd love to see GW create a warped and mutated varient of those units (much like the hellbrute compared to the dreadnought) chaos vehicles should all be "half way to a deamon engine"
And those who want to run their models as less corrupted veterans?

Not everything in terms of crunch HAS to be represented in fluff, and not all parts of fluff need to be in crunch. Enhanced troops are easily explained via tons of experience, bionic enhancements, OR Chaos gifts.

Also Renegades can still be relegated to the main Marine codex and simply swap out keywords for allies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/25 17:13:15


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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^The reasoning is this: The vast majority of a Renegade chapters existence is spent after they've been severed from Imperial logistical support. The complicated stuff breaks down and rare replacement parts are hard to get. I'm sure they have Land Speeders and MultiMeltas etc for a bit, maybe a couple years. But the other 99% of their existence, they're unable to count on the support necessary for that equipment, and so it isn't seen anymore.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
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 Insectum7 wrote:
^The reasoning is this: The vast majority of a Renegade chapters existence is spent after they've been severed from Imperial logistical support. The complicated stuff breaks down and rare replacement parts are hard to get. I'm sure they have Land Speeders and MultiMeltas etc for a bit, maybe a couple years. But the other 99% of their existence, they're unable to count on the support necessary for that equipment, and so it isn't seen anymore.

So what you're saying is all their Hurricane Bolters ran out of Ammo but somehow the basic Bolter will have enough ammo for them to keep going. Oh and their Razorbacks don't have functional Lascannons anymore, even though those are the same ones kept on the regular Land Raider all this time.

At some point, you can defend Renegades needing to be represented by the CSM codex. If you don't WANT Grav Cannons or Centurions or Sternguard or Apothecaries or Chapter Masters don't take them. However Renegade and Heretic Chapters absolutely need 100% access to them. The best way to do that? Just use the main codex (with consolidated Chapters now so we can account for the Angels successors that go rogue) with keyword switching for alliances.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
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^Rarer equipment can get broken, lost, traded away, broken down for parts, etc. Not necessarily gone, but rare enough to not get a listing in the book. Or those Lascannons that CSMs carry are the ones from their Razorbacks.

I find it amusing that you've been on this campaign to unify the loyalist codexes, but you're actively trying to split the Chaos one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/26 01:33:38


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
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 Insectum7 wrote:
^Rarer equipment can get broken, lost, traded away, broken down for parts, etc. Not necessarily gone, but rare enough to not get a listing in the book. Or those Lascannons that CSMs carry are the ones from their Razorbacks.

I find it amusing that you've been on this campaign to unify the loyalist codexes, but you're actively trying to split the Chaos one.

How am I advocating splitting? I'm for two codices: Traitor Legions and Loyalist Scum/Renegades/Heretics (with those latter two only needing a few pages to explain how they'd work and an entry for Huron). Also why would they carry Lascannons on foot when the Havocs you advocate for don't carry them as efficiently? Or somehow the a disabled Predator wouldn't be able to denote the one it's using.

Give me a break. Multi-Meltas are NOT rare equipment.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
 
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