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^Imo Chosen are too limited in their options. I don't see why they have a cap of four(five?) models who can take special equipment, while loyalist Sternguard and Vanguard (and Chaos Terminators) can load up everybody. Then give them access to veteran abilities a la 3.5.

GK players would literally die from the sheer volume of orgasm.

I mean, of course the traitor legions in 40k are the underdogs. Chaos lost. 10k years ago. They have been running and trying to make a dent with mostly guerrilla warfare but they aren't even that relevant.


That doesnt mean Chaos is not the biggest problem for the imperium. But the ambiental space problems of chaos storms and the insidious chaos corruption of cults and demons are much more dangerous for the Imperium than the traitor legions.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Imo Chosen are too limited in their options. I don't see why they have a cap of four(five?) models who can take special equipment, while loyalist Sternguard and Vanguard (and Chaos Terminators) can load up everybody. Then give them access to veteran abilities a la 3.5.

Ah, yes, I thought we'd agree. Now make them troops and csm have a troops choice that can compete with intercessors and be different from them instead of a copy with spikes. Better weapons options, everyone can have a melee weapon, and the option for a heavy weapon, but inherently less durable and slightly more numerous. The addition of veteran abilities would highlight their experience. So troops with better experience and the ability to take non-standardized equipment (maybe give them back dispersed formation and/or infiltrate) vs inherently superior but less tactically flexible and standardized troops.

I like it. Gw probably wouldn't though.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Imo Chosen are too limited in their options. I don't see why they have a cap of four(five?) models who can take special equipment, while loyalist Sternguard and Vanguard (and Chaos Terminators) can load up everybody. Then give them access to veteran abilities a la 3.5.

Exalted for truth. Such a dumb discrepancy.

I've always thought that Chosen should be something to be feared. Chaos Marines are scary, but the presence of Chosen should be terrifying. A bit like when the Chaos Warriors show up in the Mark of Chaos trailer.

But they're basically just "Veteran Chaos Marines".

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Imo Chosen are too limited in their options. I don't see why they have a cap of four(five?) models who can take special equipment, while loyalist Sternguard and Vanguard (and Chaos Terminators) can load up everybody. Then give them access to veteran abilities a la 3.5.

Ah, yes, I thought we'd agree. Now make them troops and csm have a troops choice that can compete with intercessors and be different from them instead of a copy with spikes. Better weapons options, everyone can have a melee weapon, and the option for a heavy weapon, but inherently less durable and slightly more numerous. The addition of veteran abilities would highlight their experience. So troops with better experience and the ability to take non-standardized equipment (maybe give them back dispersed formation and/or infiltrate) vs inherently superior but less tactically flexible and standardized troops.

I like it. Gw probably wouldn't though.

I wouldn't make them troops by default, but as an unlockable. I'd give CSMs the option for veteran upgrades again, though. I forget, can they take Marks now? I got the sense that Marks got watered down for 8th. I played Black Legion late 7th early 8th, but I forget details.

I do remember killing a bunch of Custodes and Primaris with Chaos Spawn though. That was fun!

 Insectum7 wrote:
I forget, can they take Marks now? I got the sense that Marks got watered down for 8th. I played Black Legion late 7th early 8th, but I forget details.

Watered down doesn't quite cover it. We've fallen a long way since 3.5 when Marks actually had rules.

Now they are just something that lets you use specific stratagems (ie. a unit has to have the Mark of Slaanesh to use the 'Fire Twice' strat, but the Mark itself does nothing).

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Never ceases to amaze me how quickly people forgot that the initial primaris release sucked...

I wouldn't hold my breath for tacs getting two wounds, though.

Read through every single one of the above posts. Not a single statement there to indicate otherwise.


Was this preemptive jocking? Never ceases to amaze me how blindly people will white knight for this company.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Imo Chosen are too limited in their options. I don't see why they have a cap of four(five?) models who can take special equipment, while loyalist Sternguard and Vanguard (and Chaos Terminators) can load up everybody. Then give them access to veteran abilities a la 3.5.

Ah, yes, I thought we'd agree. Now make them troops and csm have a troops choice that can compete with intercessors and be different from them instead of a copy with spikes. Better weapons options, everyone can have a melee weapon, and the option for a heavy weapon, but inherently less durable and slightly more numerous. The addition of veteran abilities would highlight their experience. So troops with better experience and the ability to take non-standardized equipment (maybe give them back dispersed formation and/or infiltrate) vs inherently superior but less tactically flexible and standardized troops.

I like it. Gw probably wouldn't though.

I wouldn't make them troops by default, but as an unlockable. I'd give CSMs the option for veteran upgrades again, though. I forget, can they take Marks now? I got the sense that Marks got watered down for 8th. I played Black Legion late 7th early 8th, but I forget details.

I do remember killing a bunch of Custodes and Primaris with Chaos Spawn though. That was fun!

Unlockable how? For the legions only and not for renegades? Or only for certain legions?

And as H.B.M.C. points out, marks don't do a lot anymore other than enabling certain strategems. Doesn't bother me much though, because I play Night Lords, and Night Lords shouldn't have marks.

I've been advocating for the return of veteran abilities for some time as well.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I forget, can they take Marks now? I got the sense that Marks got watered down for 8th. I played Black Legion late 7th early 8th, but I forget details.

Watered down doesn't quite cover it. We've fallen a long way since 3.5 when Marks actually had rules.

Now they are just something that lets you use specific stratagems (ie. a unit has to have the Mark of Slaanesh to use the 'Fire Twice' strat, but the Mark itself does nothing).

Oh man, that sucks. Yeah I'd pump those way back up. Imo Marks should be huge boost to CSM over the loyalist counterparts.

Also Mark-boosted Terminators, I'd bring them back in force.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Imo Chosen are too limited in their options. I don't see why they have a cap of four(five?) models who can take special equipment, while loyalist Sternguard and Vanguard (and Chaos Terminators) can load up everybody. Then give them access to veteran abilities a la 3.5.

Ah, yes, I thought we'd agree. Now make them troops and csm have a troops choice that can compete with intercessors and be different from them instead of a copy with spikes. Better weapons options, everyone can have a melee weapon, and the option for a heavy weapon, but inherently less durable and slightly more numerous. The addition of veteran abilities would highlight their experience. So troops with better experience and the ability to take non-standardized equipment (maybe give them back dispersed formation and/or infiltrate) vs inherently superior but less tactically flexible and standardized troops.

I like it. Gw probably wouldn't though.

I wouldn't make them troops by default, but as an unlockable. I'd give CSMs the option for veteran upgrades again, though. I forget, can they take Marks now? I got the sense that Marks got watered down for 8th. I played Black Legion late 7th early 8th, but I forget details.

I do remember killing a bunch of Custodes and Primaris with Chaos Spawn though. That was fun!

Unlockable how? For the legions only and not for renegades? Or only for certain legions?

I default back to that being a Black Legion thing, but I'm open to other avenues. I think it was Black Legion in ye olde 3.5.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Oh man, that sucks. Yeah I'd pump those way back up. Imo Marks should be huge boost to CSM over the loyalist counterparts.

Also Mark-boosted Terminators, I'd bring them back in force.

Of course we have the times during the 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codex where Marine squads would forget which Chaos God they served if the Icon Bearer died.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Imo Chosen are too limited in their options. I don't see why they have a cap of four(five?) models who can take special equipment, while loyalist Sternguard and Vanguard (and Chaos Terminators) can load up everybody. Then give them access to veteran abilities a la 3.5.

Ah, yes, I thought we'd agree. Now make them troops and csm have a troops choice that can compete with intercessors and be different from them instead of a copy with spikes. Better weapons options, everyone can have a melee weapon, and the option for a heavy weapon, but inherently less durable and slightly more numerous. The addition of veteran abilities would highlight their experience. So troops with better experience and the ability to take non-standardized equipment (maybe give them back dispersed formation and/or infiltrate) vs inherently superior but less tactically flexible and standardized troops.

I like it. Gw probably wouldn't though.

I wouldn't make them troops by default, but as an unlockable. I'd give CSMs the option for veteran upgrades again, though. I forget, can they take Marks now? I got the sense that Marks got watered down for 8th. I played Black Legion late 7th early 8th, but I forget details.

I do remember killing a bunch of Custodes and Primaris with Chaos Spawn though. That was fun!

Unlockable how? For the legions only and not for renegades? Or only for certain legions?

I default back to that being a Black Legion thing, but I'm open to other avenues. I think it was Black Legion in ye olde 3.5.

No, that wasn't 3.5, that was the Traitor Legions supplement at the end of 7th. Black Legion got Chosen and terminators as troops, everyone else got something else (Raptors for Night Lords, obliterators for iw, etc). That could work. I wouldn't mind having a troops choice for Night Lords with fly, 12 of movement, deep strike, and obsec. I hear mobility is pretty good in the new 9th edition missions.

Making Chosen troops doesn't really solve the problem. They're not very good, and are glass cannons with special weapons. The problem with CSM isn't that we can't dump enough points of special weapons into them, and an extra base attack doesn't address their real problems. The real problem is that they die too easily, mainly because of AP changes in 8th, and they do too little damage with basic marine weapons, also due to rule changes in 8th.

We need the classic MeQ statline to get fixed, not to shuffle units around. That should also fix it for all our other units, like Raptors.

(But I do like the idea of Legions being able to take signature units as Troops overall, but that's another issue.)

I don't think anyone would begrudge Chosen going up to W2.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

We need the classic MeQ statline to get fixed, not to shuffle units around.

Their statline is fine, we're just fighting tank battles with tons of anti-tank weaponry. It takes an entire Infantry Squad rapid firing at MEQ to take one down, before orders, twice that if the MEQ is in cover. It takes five Marines (pre Doctrine) to drop a marine before cover. Imo that's fine.

It's important to me that the relationships between core units are set up.well, as that's often the meat of the stories in 40k. Marines fighting waves of cultists, etc. The range advantage of marines with their bolter rules has done very well in that regard, giving MEQs a nice edge at range. It takes 8 squads if Infantry to kill a single Terminator beyond 12" range with lasguns. 10 Terminators kill 14 GEQ before any reroll bonuses, and at least loyalists can push it past 20. (Chaos gets close to 30 with Shoot Twice) The scenario where 10 Terminators chew through 100 cultists in the open is totally feasible. Or 10 marines vs. A hundred cultists if they can't bring numbers to bear and come in waves. That's the heart of the lore and the tabletop can achieve that with 1W MEQs. Imo CSM should get access to the -1 Bolter AP at least though.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

We need the classic MeQ statline to get fixed, not to shuffle units around.

Their statline is fine, we're just fighting tank battles with tons of anti-tank weaponry. It takes an entire Infantry Squad rapid firing at MEQ to take one down, before orders, twice that if the MEQ is in cover. It takes five Marines (pre Doctrine) to drop a marine before cover. Imo that's fine.

Right, that's because those are all ap0 weapons, which didn't change from previous editions. Those things aren't the problem. The problem is that MeQs have become too inefficient vs ap-1 and ap-2, and their offense is too low. Bolters used to ignore 5+ and 6+ armor entirely, now they don't even have ap-1 (well, except loyalists got that back via doctrines.) Assault also totally changed, and much more.

^I started this game when Heavy Bolters had about 2D3 shots and AP -2. I also played epic. I'm ok with marines dying.

I support the answer being terrain, cover, hit modifiers and use of transports or vehicles to protect your dudes and strike on your terms. 9th is going that direction so I'm all for it.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Making Chosen troops doesn't really solve the problem. They're not very good, and are glass cannons with special weapons. The problem with CSM isn't that we can't dump enough points of special weapons into them, and an extra base attack doesn't address their real problems. The real problem is that they die too easily, mainly because of AP changes in 8th, and they do too little damage with basic marine weapons, also due to rule changes in 8th.

We need the classic MeQ statline to get fixed, not to shuffle units around. That should also fix it for all our other units, like Raptors.

(But I do like the idea of Legions being able to take signature units as Troops overall, but that's another issue.)

Point for point Chosen with combi-bolters and chainswords could stand up against intercessors within 24 or in cc before the points changes. They just need the ability to take combi-bolters on the entire squad.

I'd make all the crazy chaos guys 3W to reflect chaos power. Of course, they'd cost appropriately and fewer models would sell.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^2W basic marines at 15 points per would absolutely be OP.

Were Intercessors OP when they were 17 pts? They were 2W and an extra attack, extra ap, and extra range.

And they couldn't get the weapon or delivery options of normal marines, heavily curttailing their damage potential. 2w Marines drop podding with Grav Cannons would have been fantastically good.

Honestly I'm still annoyed the new Havocs didn't get W2

Havocs should have kept the old model with T4 with the capacity for Specials, Heavies and extra bodies they way they used to be. Their legacy is that they're just CSMs with a higher saturation of ranged firepower.

Which was basically Chosen with more Heavy Weapons instead of one. It's incredibly fething boring design wise, crunch wise, and quite frankly fluff wise as well. Oooooh they're Devastators but EEEEVIIIIIL so they get to have four Special Weapons if they want instead!

Yeah no. Screw that.

They're literally just CSM with more guns. The problem you're having lies with Chosen, and that's a problem that I agree should be addressed.

A brief history of Havocs:
2nd Ed. They didn't exist, but CSMs could have up to three specials or Heavies in a squad, because Chaos is less regimented than loyalists. No FOC exists at this time, Troops are just any infantry unit, basically.

3rd Ed Havocs are created, and are just CSMs with three ranged weapon upgrades moved to the Heavy Support slot, which was new at the time.

3.5 Ed. They get four weapons to make them even with loyalist Devastators.

And so on until the middle of 8th Ed.

Havocs are literally just CSMs with a higher proportion of heavy/special weaponry, created because of the FOC brought about by 3rd edition. Fluff-wise they were pitch perfect, because CSMs don't follow the loyalist structure. CSM blob with two or fewer specials = Troops, CSM squad with 3 or more? Heavy Support. Otherwise identical because they're the same friggin guys.

I know the history, and my point stands. Eeeeevvvviiiiiillllll Devastators is fething lazy design. You're really just proving my point. Just because you like something being a legacy doesn't mean it shouldn't change for the greater good of the army's identity. We have the "spike tax" as a meme for a reason, and that's because of holding back the CSM army as mirroring loyalists as much as possible in terms of core design.

I feel like slayer-fan has heard this description of “evil devastators” delivered far more articulately by someone else, bought right into it, and is now doing a poor job of trying to emulate something that likely wasn’t that intelligent in the first place. None of your complaints are making any sense or are at all compelling, your point doesn’t “still stand” when someone counters it, nor is it “proven for you”, you just look like you don’t really have anything else to fall back on and aren’t really aware why it is you’re so sure about what you’re saying in the first place.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
I feel like slayer-fan has heard this description of “evil devastators” delivered far more articulately by someone else, bought right into it, and is now doing a poor job of trying to emulate something that likely wasn’t that intelligent in the first place. None of your complaints are making any sense or are at all compelling, your point doesn’t “still stand” when someone counters it, nor is it “proven for you”, you just look like you don’t really have anything else to fall back on and aren’t really aware why it is you’re so sure about what you’re saying in the first place.

Where am I incorrect that they're just the EEEEVIIIIIL mirror of Devastators and that it's lazy design?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
I feel like slayer-fan has heard this description of “evil devastators” delivered far more articulately by someone else, bought right into it, and is now doing a poor job of trying to emulate something that likely wasn’t that intelligent in the first place. None of your complaints are making any sense or are at all compelling, your point doesn’t “still stand” when someone counters it, nor is it “proven for you”, you just look like you don’t really have anything else to fall back on and aren’t really aware why it is you’re so sure about what you’re saying in the first place.

Where am I incorrect that they're just the EEEEVIIIIIL mirror of Devastators and that it's lazy design?

I mean, yeah, thats what they are. But why is it lazy design? Both version of space marines have the same origin and there is bound to be some common points between the two.

Do you expect CSM to not have predators/rhinos/power armor just because the loyalists have them?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
I feel like slayer-fan has heard this description of “evil devastators” delivered far more articulately by someone else, bought right into it, and is now doing a poor job of trying to emulate something that likely wasn’t that intelligent in the first place. None of your complaints are making any sense or are at all compelling, your point doesn’t “still stand” when someone counters it, nor is it “proven for you”, you just look like you don’t really have anything else to fall back on and aren’t really aware why it is you’re so sure about what you’re saying in the first place.

Where am I incorrect that they're just the EEEEVIIIIIL mirror of Devastators and that it's lazy design?

I mean, yeah, thats what they are. But why is it lazy design? Both version of space marines have the same origin and there is bound to be some common points between the two.

Do you expect CSM to not have predators/rhinos/power armor just because the loyalists have them?

Because, at some point, there has to be a line drawn for the identity of the two armies, and treating them as simply EEEEVIIIIL Space Marines has basically hindered their design ever since 4th. A couple of common vehicles? That's fine, whatever. Hell, I'm actually happy CSM don't have access to regular Drop Pods because that's an identity of Loyalist Scum.

More the issue is there's too many common points. Chaos Marines have been relegated to just evil Tactical Marines, Raptors are really just evil Assault Marines, and Havocs were just evil Devastators. While the execution isn't perfect, the newer identity for Havocs is a great thing for the CSM army to make them look like their own thing instead of "Marines but EEEEVIIIIL AND SPIKEY".

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
I feel like slayer-fan has heard this description of “evil devastators” delivered far more articulately by someone else, bought right into it, and is now doing a poor job of trying to emulate something that likely wasn’t that intelligent in the first place. None of your complaints are making any sense or are at all compelling, your point doesn’t “still stand” when someone counters it, nor is it “proven for you”, you just look like you don’t really have anything else to fall back on and aren’t really aware why it is you’re so sure about what you’re saying in the first place.

Where am I incorrect that they're just the EEEEVIIIIIL mirror of Devastators and that it's lazy design?

The part where Havocs could take special weapons and Chainswords, and the part where they reflected legacy and lore.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Because, at some point, there has to be a line drawn for the identity of the two armies, and treating them as simply EEEEVIIIIL Space Marines has basically hindered their design ever since 4th. A couple of common vehicles? That's fine, whatever. Hell, I'm actually happy CSM don't have access to regular Drop Pods because that's an identity of Loyalist Scum.

More the issue is there's too many common points. Chaos Marines have been relegated to just evil Tactical Marines, Raptors are really just evil Assault Marines, and Havocs were just evil Devastators. While the execution isn't perfect, the newer identity for Havocs is a great thing for the CSM army to make them look like their own thing instead of "Marines but EEEEVIIIIL AND SPIKEY".

I mean, CSM make extensive use of dreadclaws, which circumvent the "gotta get those droppods back after we use them". The newer identity of havocs still make them basically devastators, except they get no ablative wounds and they can move with no penalty. Theyre still power armored guys with heavy weapons.

And again, its normal that they have many points in common with loyalists, they're the same army originally.

csm DO have their own flavor but it comes with their demon engines and marks of chaos (which should do more than they currently do). Take the night lords, which mostly ignore all demonic stuff. Theyre basically just that, less organised spiky marines.

I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.

Too many chaos space marine players want to play Horus Heresy chaos or Renegade Chaos Space marines. And thats absolutely fine, but the more Chaos Space Marines departure from being loyalist but evil and more into being proper chaotic guys that have been trapped for 10.000 years in the galaxy equivalent of your anus after eating way too much on a Taco Bell, the better they'll be as a faction with proper identity and tactics.

"Devastators but with chainswords" doesn't fly in the second decade of the two thousands, guys.

In an ideal world you would have a Chaos Renegades codex for those kind of players but if I have to chose, I very much prefer a further departure into the chaotic realm for chaos marines, just like thousand sons and death guard codex have a much stronger identity both fluff and gameplay wise.

 Galas wrote:
I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.

Too many chaos space marine players want to play . . . Renegade Chaos Space marines.

Why would you think the Chaos Space Marine codex wouldn't represent that? Since it's inception, the Chaos Codex runs the gamut from recent renegades to 10000 year veterans, and it's done that best through robust options for the units allowing you to customize them into the force that you want. The NuHavocs are a step into the current GW paradigm of bifurcating up your army based on the separate kits that they sell.

Older way was better. If you wanted Renegades, you paid for your basic CSM bodies and your four Heavy weapons. If you wanted Veterans, you bought them Veteran upgrades and gave them effective Marks for the role you want them for. The single entry could be:

1: Tough, elite fire support through Tank Hunters and Mark of Nurgle for increased toughness.
2: Storm Troopers with Special Weapons and Assault gear, plus the Mark of Khorne and Infiltrators (I think they could get Infiltrators) 15 models iirc, too.
3: Cheap Renegades who mirror their loyalist past with 10 bodies and autocannons/HBs that they've raided from Guardsmen.
4: Or you could basically build the new Havoc unit with 5 dudes and some Heavy Weapons.

The new Havocs are a boring unit entry.

Your desire appears to be "Make it more Chaos-ey" by making the unit more homogenous in it's manifestation. I guess all Chaos Marines who like firepower all organize themselves in the same way across all warbands, for some arbitrary reason. That's stupid. The more time they spend as Chaos marines the more they should be able to diverge. Revert Havocs to the older style entry and options, give them the option for "Heavy Armor" or whatever to cover Move-and-fire if you want to pay for it, and call it a day.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I'm not normally in Slayer-Fan123's side but I'm with him on this.

Too many chaos space marine players want to play . . . Renegade Chaos Space marines.

Why would you think the Chaos Space Marine codex wouldn't represent that? Since it's inception, the Chaos Codex runs the gamut from recent renegades to 10000 year veterans, and it's done that best through robust options for the units allowing you to customize them into the force that you want. The NuHavocs are a step into the current GW paradigm of bifurcating up your army based on the separate kits that they sell.

Older way was better. If you wanted Renegades, you paid for your basic CSM bodies and your four Heavy weapons. If you wanted Veterans, you bought them Veteran upgrades and gave them effective Marks for the role you want them for. The single entry could be:

1: Tough, elite fire support through Tank Hunters and Mark of Nurgle for increased toughness.
2: Storm Troopers with Special Weapons and Assault gear, plus the Mark of Khorne and Infiltrators (I think they could get Infiltrators) 15 models iirc, too.
3: Cheap Renegades who mirror their loyalist past with 10 bodies and autocannons/HBs that they've raided from Guardsmen.
4: Or you could basically build the new Havoc unit with 5 dudes and some Heavy Weapons.

The new Havocs are a boring unit entry.

Your desire appears to be "Make it more Chaos-ey" by making the unit more homogenous in it's manifestation. I guess all Chaos Marines who like firepower all organize themselves in the same way across all warbands, for some arbitrary reason. That's stupid. The more time they spend as Chaos marines the more they should be able to diverge. Revert Havocs to the older style entry and options, give them the option for "Heavy Armor" or whatever to cover Move-and-fire if you want to pay for it, and call it a day.

I like this, very 3.5, but I have one problem with it. It relies too heavily on marks. While I agree that marks should be more meaningful again, there should be some kind of bonus for legions that are aligned chaos undivided like the Night Lords. There should be some kind of bonus for playing a legion like them fluffy, without marks and daemonic units, except maybe warp talons (warp talons would be like furies in 3.5 for Night Lords). Maybe an additional part of their legion trait for going full godless?