I'm surprised people don't seem to be angry about the Space Marine codex being on its third iteration in three years while other armies are still basically using their updated Index rules codexes. I'm especially surprised Space Marine players aren't complaining more loudly about having to buy basically yearly updates to the codex.
I have to say though I'm really not a fan of GWs opposite approach to how they handle releases now. Remember when they'd release a codex with model entries that didn't exists, then sometime make the model later? This whole release an incomplete codex then release stuff not in the codex is much worse but no one seems to mind.
With how quickly they're flying through the Codices now, I'm certainly not going to be buying any more unless and until I specifically need it for an event or something. I don't paint fast enough to keep up with the rate the new ones come back round.
Sim-Life wrote: I'm surprised people don't seem to be angry about the Space Marine codex being on its third iteration in three years while other armies are still basically using their updated Index rules codexes. I'm especially surprised Space Marine players aren't complaining more loudly about having to buy basically yearly updates to the codex.
You must not be paying attention. Some of us complain VERY LOUDLY and ALL THE TIME about that. Have you ever talked to a csm player?
I have to say though I'm really not a fan of GWs opposite approach to how they handle releases now. Remember when they'd release a codex with model entries that didn't exists, then sometime make the model later? This whole release an incomplete codex then release stuff not in the codex is much worse but no one seems to mind.
They're afraid someone will convert a model to represent whatever hasn't been released yet. I remember when they encouraged that. Like the defiler when the 3.5 csm codex was released. People created some cool models out of that one.
They do need a new one thou with all the new models out now. I;m glad its 1 large core book for every marine faction now, and the supplements has the flavors of the others. So its not like 10 new SM books are going out, its 1 large book.
They do need a new one thou with all the new models out now. I;m glad its 1 large core book for every marine faction now, and the supplements has the flavors of the others. So its not like 10 new SM books are going out, its 1 large book.
Sim-Life wrote: I'm surprised people don't seem to be angry about the Space Marine codex being on its third iteration in three years while other armies are still basically using their updated Index rules codexes. I'm especially surprised Space Marine players aren't complaining more loudly about having to buy basically yearly updates to the codex.
You must not be paying attention. Some of us complain VERY LOUDLY and ALL THE TIME about that. Have you ever talked to a csm player?
I have to say though I'm really not a fan of GWs opposite approach to how they handle releases now. Remember when they'd release a codex with model entries that didn't exists, then sometime make the model later? This whole release an incomplete codex then release stuff not in the codex is much worse but no one seems to mind.
They're afraid someone will convert a model to represent whatever hasn't been released yet. I remember when they encouraged that. Like the defiler when the 3.5 csm codex was released. People created some cool models out of that one.
Yep and now the sad defiler isn't even a thing anymore, a guy in our group scored a pristine used one still complete on the sprue in the box with the instructions. but then he is playing the 3.5 codex in our 5th ed house rules games so he loves the thing-mutated hull, parasitic possession, demonic possession, and indirect fire. it's the original ironclad!
It really isn't a surprise, space marines are their #1 selling product line. it will always get the most love in updates and minis. as long as people keep paying for it GW will keep on doing the same thing they have always done.
Sim-Life wrote: I'm surprised people don't seem to be angry about the Space Marine codex being on its third iteration in three years while other armies are still basically using their updated Index rules codexes. I'm especially surprised Space Marine players aren't complaining more loudly about having to buy basically yearly updates to the codex.
You must not be paying attention. Some of us complain VERY LOUDLY and ALL THE TIME about that. Have you ever talked to a csm player?
I have to say though I'm really not a fan of GWs opposite approach to how they handle releases now. Remember when they'd release a codex with model entries that didn't exists, then sometime make the model later? This whole release an incomplete codex then release stuff not in the codex is much worse but no one seems to mind.
They're afraid someone will convert a model to represent whatever hasn't been released yet. I remember when they encouraged that. Like the defiler when the 3.5 csm codex was released. People created some cool models out of that one.
In fairness I've not been on Dakka a great deal lately but usually people try to drag complaints like this into every topic.
On the second I'm aware of WHY GW don't publish stuff that doesn't have a model in their codexes but what really irked me was the Sister Palentine they previewed. It takes like 2 years from conception to production to produce a model so publishing both the codex and PA: Pariah they KNEW that model was going to be released but didn't see fit to include either in the codex.
Sim-Life wrote: I'm surprised people don't seem to be angry about the Space Marine codex being on its third iteration in three years while other armies are still basically using their updated Index rules codexes. I'm especially surprised Space Marine players aren't complaining more loudly about having to buy basically yearly updates to the codex.
You must not be paying attention. Some of us complain VERY LOUDLY and ALL THE TIME about that. Have you ever talked to a csm player?
I have to say though I'm really not a fan of GWs opposite approach to how they handle releases now. Remember when they'd release a codex with model entries that didn't exists, then sometime make the model later? This whole release an incomplete codex then release stuff not in the codex is much worse but no one seems to mind.
They're afraid someone will convert a model to represent whatever hasn't been released yet. I remember when they encouraged that. Like the defiler when the 3.5 csm codex was released. People created some cool models out of that one.
In fairness I've not been on Dakka a great deal lately but usually people try to drag complaints like this into every topic.
On the second I'm aware of WHY GW don't publish stuff that doesn't have a model in their codexes but what really irked me was the Sister Palentine and Ephrael model they previewed. It takes like 2 years from conception to production to produce a model so publishing both the codex and PA: Pariah they KNEW those models were going to be released but didn't see fit to include either in the codex.
But seelling a new book makes money for small investment, also don't forget printstuff is shovelware from china so their margin is even more ludicrous then say, Abadon..
People complain marines suck, gw releases a codex which is wildly out of balance. People complain. Constantly. They release a 3rd codex to include more new stuff and bring them back in line and people complain that old OP book they whinged about online for 12 months is outdated.
Dudeface wrote: People complain marines suck, gw releases a codex which is wildly out of balance. People complain. Constantly. They release a 3rd codex to include more new stuff and bring them back in line and people complain that old OP book they whinged about online for 12 months is outdated.
What do people expect them to do?
Not make Marines suck? Not have Marines be laughably OP? Decide on and stick to a rules design for more than one edition at a time so that there aren't three core Marine Codexes, four variant Marine Codexes and ten (?) supplementary Marine Codexes in just over three years..?
Nevelon wrote: There is actually a reasonable amount of bitching about it.
Some of it is being drowned out by the talk of wrapping all the marines into one book.
Some of the lack of noise might be the fact that the current book is a bit broken, and could use replacing.
It’s a new edition, so a new marine book is expected. Sucks, but a bit of resignation here.
This is pretty much what I see as well.
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Dudeface wrote: People complain marines suck, gw releases a codex which is wildly out of balance. People complain. Constantly. They release a 3rd codex to include more new stuff and bring them back in line and people complain that old OP book they whinged about online for 12 months is outdated.
Sim-Life wrote: I'm surprised people don't seem to be angry about the Space Marine codex being on its third iteration in three years while other armies are still basically using their updated Index rules codexes. I'm especially surprised Space Marine players aren't complaining more loudly about having to buy basically yearly updates to the codex.
I have to say though I'm really not a fan of GWs opposite approach to how they handle releases now. Remember when they'd release a codex with model entries that didn't exists, then sometime make the model later? This whole release an incomplete codex then release stuff not in the codex is much worse but no one seems to mind.
I must say, if they believe it's profitable, then they are right to do so. It must be infuriating for marine players (which i fortunately am not), but it shines a new positive light on the more reasonable xenos codex/miniatures release schedule, which can be frustrating compared to marines, but at least you're not feeling milked all the time.
The thing to complain aboute is actually the Marine Codex 2019
The 2020 Codex is kind of fine, something people asked for a long time and the Poster Boys are the first Codex to start the new Edition
Also finally fulfilling the wish of the community let them hope that Eldar and Orks might get the same
Having finally again an Eldar Codex with Supplements for different Sub-Factions or an Ork Codex with Kult/Clan Supplements is why people are quiet, "New 40k" looks really promising from that point of view
But the SM Codex 2019 has no reason to exist at all in this scenario
Marines could have done another year with the old book and just the PA upgrades
It is not like that GW did not know about their own future plans of a PA books coming and a new Edition with a new SM Codex on the way
This Codex was there to get people into 8th Edition so that there are enough "Veterans" for 9th, and to get those who were happy about the game into the right mood for a new Edition.
So for all those things that failed for "New 40k" this one they have done right and this one blink of hope let people forget about all the bad stuff around
Sim-Life wrote: I'm surprised people don't seem to be angry about the Space Marine codex being on its third iteration in three years while other armies are still basically using their updated Index rules codexes. I'm especially surprised Space Marine players aren't complaining more loudly about having to buy basically yearly updates to the codex.
You must not be paying attention. Some of us complain VERY LOUDLY and ALL THE TIME about that. Have you ever talked to a csm player?
I have to say though I'm really not a fan of GWs opposite approach to how they handle releases now. Remember when they'd release a codex with model entries that didn't exists, then sometime make the model later? This whole release an incomplete codex then release stuff not in the codex is much worse but no one seems to mind.
They're afraid someone will convert a model to represent whatever hasn't been released yet. I remember when they encouraged that. Like the defiler when the 3.5 csm codex was released. People created some cool models out of that one.
In fairness I've not been on Dakka a great deal lately but usually people try to drag complaints like this into every topic.
On the second I'm aware of WHY GW don't publish stuff that doesn't have a model in their codexes but what really irked me was the Sister Palentine they previewed. It takes like 2 years from conception to production to produce a model so publishing both the codex and PA: Pariah they KNEW that model was going to be released but didn't see fit to include either in the codex.
Had they done so, we'd have been whining since November that we didn't have a model yet. As it was, people whined that many of the models weren't released until March when the dex dropped in November.
Nevelon wrote: There is actually a reasonable amount of bitching about it.
Some of it is being drowned out by the talk of wrapping all the marines into one book.
Some of the lack of noise might be the fact that the current book is a bit broken, and could use replacing.
It’s a new edition, so a new marine book is expected. Sucks, but a bit of resignation here.
This is pretty much what I see as well.
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Dudeface wrote: People complain marines suck, gw releases a codex which is wildly out of balance. People complain. Constantly. They release a 3rd codex to include more new stuff and bring them back in line and people complain that old OP book they whinged about online for 12 months is outdated.
What do people expect them to do?
Show more interest in the quality of their game.
Lord Damocles wrote:
Dudeface wrote: People complain marines suck, gw releases a codex which is wildly out of balance. People complain. Constantly. They release a 3rd codex to include more new stuff and bring them back in line and people complain that old OP book they whinged about online for 12 months is outdated.
What do people expect them to do?
Not make Marines suck? Not have Marines be laughably OP? Decide on and stick to a rules design for more than one edition at a time so that there aren't three core Marine Codexes, four variant Marine Codexes and ten (?) supplementary Marine Codexes in just over three years..?
These are lovely "what they could have done" statements. Given where they are now, another codex is actually the easiest answer to the most complained about book in their range.
Dudeface wrote: People complain marines suck, gw releases a codex which is wildly out of balance. People complain. Constantly. They release a 3rd codex to include more new stuff and bring them back in line and people complain that old OP book they whinged about online for 12 months is outdated.
What do people expect them to do?
Not make Marines suck? Not have Marines be laughably OP? Decide on and stick to a rules design for more than one edition at a time so that there aren't three core Marine Codexes, four variant Marine Codexes and ten (?) supplementary Marine Codexes in just over three years..?
These are lovely "what they could have done" statements. Given where they are now, another codex is actually the easiest answer to the most complained about book in their range.
To clarify: Yes, I do indeed expect GW to do the thing which they could have done if they'd not done it really badly.
'They broke it repeatedly; so it's actually a good thing that they might maybe possibly, but probably not given prior experience, fix it if we just buy it again' doesn't fly with me.
Sim-Life wrote: I'm surprised people don't seem to be angry about the Space Marine codex being on its third iteration in three years while other armies are still basically using their updated Index rules codexes. I'm especially surprised Space Marine players aren't complaining more loudly about having to buy basically yearly updates to the codex.
I am, but mostly because I'm worried about having less options available for my chapter. Anyway, I'm not gonna give GW money for a book of SM stuff, I'll just make some photocopies of the pages I need.
Sim-Life wrote: I'm surprised people don't seem to be angry about the Space Marine codex being on its third iteration in three years while other armies are still basically using their updated Index rules codexes. I'm especially surprised Space Marine players aren't complaining more loudly about having to buy basically yearly updates to the codex.
You must not be paying attention. Some of us complain VERY LOUDLY and ALL THE TIME about that. Have you ever talked to a csm player?
I have to say though I'm really not a fan of GWs opposite approach to how they handle releases now. Remember when they'd release a codex with model entries that didn't exists, then sometime make the model later? This whole release an incomplete codex then release stuff not in the codex is much worse but no one seems to mind.
They're afraid someone will convert a model to represent whatever hasn't been released yet. I remember when they encouraged that. Like the defiler when the 3.5 csm codex was released. People created some cool models out of that one.
In fairness I've not been on Dakka a great deal lately but usually people try to drag complaints like this into every topic.
On the second I'm aware of WHY GW don't publish stuff that doesn't have a model in their codexes but what really irked me was the Sister Palentine they previewed. It takes like 2 years from conception to production to produce a model so publishing both the codex and PA: Pariah they KNEW that model was going to be released but didn't see fit to include either in the codex.
Had they done so, we'd have been whining since November that we didn't have a model yet. As it was, people whined that many of the models weren't released until March when the dex dropped in November.
The codex dropped on January for most people. Also they could have just previewed the models in January then released them later. People complained about the Sisters second wave because it was literally half the codex. I doubt anyone would complain about a couple of character models being released later. Hell, back before the tyranid warrior sprue was updated people were pretty happy to just convert their own Tyranid Prime models. Same with the Doom Of Malantai. The same would have happened with the Palentine and Ephrael until the official release.
I'm not impressed with the new book regardless. I'm also not impressed with having another wave of marines either.
I liked the first wave and the few things we got in between. The second wave looking at it now looks super pushed to capitalize on the people that really like the appearance of Phobos Armour. And this third wave seems much more proper than the Phobos one.
What I find really funny is that as we all know, being the first codex of a new edition is a death flag for that faction.
In 12 months time the SM will suck so much that most of this board will ask for an updated SM dex and when it finally comes out, we will all be really happy for it
Spoletta wrote: What I find really funny is that as we all know, being the first codex of a new edition is a death flag for that faction.
In 12 months time the SM will suck so much that most of this board will ask for an updated SM dex and when it finally comes out, we will all be really happy for it
Yeah, but in 18 months time therell be a brand new codex for Marines coming out with another wave of new Primaris kits, and power creep to put them back on top.
I'm a bit miffed about it especially as due the plague I practically didn't use the current codex at all. But I can't really get worked up about it.
But yeah, It feels like a bizarre decision. Sure, it makes sense to want to start a new edition with a new codex especially as there are a bunch of new models, but certainly they had planned this ages ago and thus could have easily skipped the previous one?
Dudeface wrote: People complain marines suck, gw releases a codex which is wildly out of balance. People complain. Constantly. They release a 3rd codex to include more new stuff and bring them back in line and people complain that old OP book they whinged about online for 12 months is outdated.
What do people expect them to do?
Not make Marines suck? Not have Marines be laughably OP? Decide on and stick to a rules design for more than one edition at a time so that there aren't three core Marine Codexes, four variant Marine Codexes and ten (?) supplementary Marine Codexes in just over three years..?
These are lovely "what they could have done" statements. Given where they are now, another codex is actually the easiest answer to the most complained about book in their range.
To clarify: Yes, I do indeed expect GW to do the thing which they could have done if they'd not done it really badly.
'They broke it repeatedly; so it's actually a good thing that they might maybe possibly, but probably not given prior experience, fix it if we just buy it again' doesn't fly with me.
OK, so you're happy to stick with the current 8th ed codex which is right at the top of the power curve?
The last lot of Marine stuff was so utterly broken (even after the tentative 'nerf') that I'm happy that the dice are being rolled again on their rules.
Something closer to fething balanced Marines is second only to getting something for my own faction.
Sim-Life wrote: I'm surprised people don't seem to be angry about the Space Marine codex being on its third iteration in three years while other armies are still basically using their updated Index rules codexes. I'm especially surprised Space Marine players aren't complaining more loudly about having to buy basically yearly updates to the codex.
I have to say though I'm really not a fan of GWs opposite approach to how they handle releases now. Remember when they'd release a codex with model entries that didn't exists, then sometime make the model later? This whole release an incomplete codex then release stuff not in the codex is much worse but no one seems to mind.
People resent "snowflake" marines so much they are willing to buy ten book in two years just to feel like SW/DA/BA are not unique.
Spoletta wrote: What I find really funny is that as we all know, being the first codex of a new edition is a death flag for that faction.
In 12 months time the SM will suck so much that most of this board will ask for an updated SM dex and when it finally comes out, we will all be really happy for it
There's that landspeeder that will come in the meantime, so SM will have new kits even after codex release.
harlokin wrote: The last lot of Marine stuff was so utterly broken (even after the tentative 'nerf') that I'm happy that the dice are being thrown again on their rules.
Something closer to fething balanced Marines is second only to getting something for my own faction.
This is pretty much what I'm getting at, yes it shouldn't have come to this but at least there's another shot at getting it right.
As said above. A), they are in the starter box (with plenty of units) and GW can't let their store-sales people hanging, trying to add-on sale Marine dexes to starter boxes if it doesn't have the units in it.
Also, B), the Marine Codex 2.0 is probably the worst, most broken Codex published for the game in at least 20 years, if not ever. The sooner it's gone, the better.
Also, many people seem to like GW rolling Space Wolves, Blood Angels and co into the main Marine book, which is fine. But do you genuinely believe GW will then go, say, 2 years without a Marine book? If anything, not having "minor" Marine books to drip inbetween the proper Space Marine Codex to sell another power armour unit or two just means GW will have to update "the big Codex" to a 9th Ed. 2.0-version even sooner.
I expect the new Necron and Marine codizes to be ahead of the rest, even if they are more balanced in the grander scheme of things.
The new codex will be adapted to the new core rules better than other factions.
The good thing is, that early codizes tend to get weaker over time as designers are more familiar with the rules themselved and more daring to go into a different design direction for new books.
I am a Marine player. I honestly don't want more models or releases. I want a year of chaos thingies and then another or xenos thingies. I want to be left alone painting my overdue models in peace.
My gripe with all the releases of books is that they're constantly filled with spelling and grammar errors, which is extra shocking considering how few words are actually contained in the books, and how much of the fluff is simply repeated verbatim from previous sources. It makes me embarrassed to own them because they are rather poor pieces of literature.
As well the font choices and stylizing on the pages are incorrectly sized/dimensions It looks pretty amateur, most Latex users I know would be shocked to see those design flaws...
It really irritates me that they're releasing another marine codex so soon after the last one. Makes me want to make a Xenos army my primary just because I'll be guaranteed to have fewer codex releases and lower cost for army upkeep.
Insectum7 wrote: It really irritates me that they're releasing another marine codex so soon after the last one. Makes me want to make a Xenos army my primary just because I'll be guaranteed to have fewer codex releases and lower cost for army upkeep.
Insectum7 wrote: It really irritates me that they're releasing another marine codex so soon after the last one. Makes me want to make a Xenos army my primary just because I'll be guaranteed to have fewer codex releases and lower cost for army upkeep.
At the risk of beating a dead horse, if GW got smart and just started releasing its rules free (or very close to free in online format) this is another issue that would go away.
They don't even make much money off books. Why they insist on using such an out-of-date model that either leads people to piracy or not buying the miniatures that actually power their profits, I do not understand.
yukishiro1 wrote: At the risk of beating a dead horse, if GW got smart and just started releasing its rules free (or very close to free in online format) this is another issue that would go away.
They don't even make much money off books. Why they insist on using such an out-of-date model that either leads people to piracy or not buying the miniatures that actually power their profits, I do not understand.
It's interesting.
I find Forgeworld particularly weird and jarring. The idea that, having paid a bundle of cash for a model to supplement your army (for which you have a codex), you don't actually get it's rules. Nope, for that you then need to buy the corresponding index book as well, packed with datasheets, likely of no use or relevance to you.
It was going to be a fully playtested and well designed Cdoex i might be more excited but given the shockingly bad mess they have made of points and the App, plus the claims that playtesters were just ignored means this is going to be hugely overpowered or underpowered or likely a turgid mess of both.
Insectum7 wrote: It really irritates me that they're releasing another marine codex so soon after the last one. Makes me want to make a Xenos army my primary just because I'll be guaranteed to have fewer codex releases and lower cost for army upkeep.
Yep and now the sad defiler isn't even a thing anymore
It's gone?! F that, I have four of them. :/
Considering that its cost is in the CA, defilers are still denitely in.
I thought so, but is it gone from the Chaos v2 book?
I should have been clearer, i mean i don't see them being used much, in fact i have not seen them on the shelf or on the table in literally years at the FLGS . most players are hot on things like the maulerfiend, forgefiend and helldrake in the last couple editions.
I find Forgeworld particularly weird and jarring. The idea that, having paid a bundle of cash for a model to supplement your army (for which you have a codex), you don't actually get it's rules. Nope, for that you then need to buy the corresponding index book as well, packed with datasheets, likely of no use or relevance to you.
You think it's bad now?
You should have seen the days of having to buy a huge campaign book.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Also, B), the Marine Codex 2.0 is probably the worst, most broken Codex published for the game in at least 20 years, if not ever. The sooner it's gone, the better
Point of order - was it the core SM2 book that was the problem, or the slew of supplements? Codex-only Iron Hands, for example, would appear to be nowhere near as bust as Supplement IH.
And for personal experience, the 3.5 Chaos 'dex still takes that award, though (given I wasn't playing during those editions) Eldar or Tau from 6th or 7th ed might be up there too.
I have to say though I'm really not a fan of GWs opposite approach to how they handle releases now. Remember when they'd release a codex with model entries that didn't exists, then sometime make the model later? This whole release an incomplete codex then release stuff not in the codex is much worse but no one seems to mind.
Thank the chapter house and other alternative makers
Insectum7 wrote: It really irritates me that they're releasing another marine codex so soon after the last one. Makes me want to make a Xenos army my primary just because I'll be guaranteed to have fewer codex releases and lower cost for army upkeep.
Yep and now the sad defiler isn't even a thing anymore
It's gone?! F that, I have four of them. :/
Considering that its cost is in the CA, defilers are still denitely in.
I thought so, but is it gone from the Chaos v2 book?
I should have been clearer, i mean i don't see them being used much, in fact i have not seen them on the shelf or on the table in literally years at the FLGS . most players are hot on things like the maulerfiend, forgefiend and helldrake in the last couple editions.
False alarm then. Carry on.
I used 3 defilers in my Black Legion army at the start of 8th. With Abaddons reroll bubble they were pretty decent.
I have to say though I'm really not a fan of GWs opposite approach to how they handle releases now. Remember when they'd release a codex with model entries that didn't exists, then sometime make the model later? This whole release an incomplete codex then release stuff not in the codex is much worse but no one seems to mind.
Thank the chapter house and other alternative makers
That's not really the case though as we know GW has at least a 2 year production cycle for any given product from the Sisters release, probably more if its not a prioritised project. So if they release a codex then six month later preview a new model there's an overlap in production, which means GW knowingly held back a unit from the codex that could have been included, but they decided against it to flog another book later on.
I have to say though I'm really not a fan of GWs opposite approach to how they handle releases now. Remember when they'd release a codex with model entries that didn't exists, then sometime make the model later? This whole release an incomplete codex then release stuff not in the codex is much worse but no one seems to mind.
Thank the chapter house and other alternative makers
Feth that for a game of soldiers.
Blame GW having an incompetent Head of IP, an arguably over-zealous legal team, and wanting to grab stuff that didn't belong to them. Once they got their asses handed to them in court - which they did - they then massively over-reacted in a manner which has harmed the consumer's experience of their products. 95-99% of Chapterhouse's products required the purchase of a GW kit to use - and, in most cases, GW wasn't producing a directly comparable product.
They could easily have competed with these smaller manufacturers, providing small plastic or resin sprues of official shoulder pads or weapons at a cheaper price point, but instead they conceded defeat in the market and went the legal route instead. I imagine most buyers would've gone an official route had it been a, available; and b, priced sensibly, but rather than compete, GW pushed firms that had spotted a gap in the market out of business via legal muscle.
3rd party part production is a time-honoured system - look at most motor vehicles, for example. Heck, look at the additional detail kits you can get for plastic tank kits, etc. GW tried to push a narrative of them producing boutique pieces of art, rather than the reality of them mass-producing metal/resin/plastic components for a game.
Their profit margin on rulebooks is way, way lower than on miniatures. The problem is they insist on sticking to this stupid print model that doesn't make any economic sense, not per se that the books are unreasonably expensive for what they are. Printing glossy color books is very expensive.
sure they do, and So does GW, but Apple doesn't lisence third party apple hardware. nor does GW lisence third party minis.
whatever the validity of the CH lawsuit, the fact is, GW was publishing rules with no models, and CH produced models. it was found that CH could legally do this, and in fact would actually own the rights to the name of the unit in mini form if they made ti first, GW took the obvious step of not producing rules for something that lacked a model.
sure they do, and So does GW, but Apple doesn't lisence third party apple hardware. nor does GW lisence third party minis.
but I can buy 3rd party Apple Add-Ons like protective cases specially if Apple would not make some if their own, something that GW tries to shut down even if they don't make it
blaming the 3rd party here that GW is incompetent makes no sense
This gets complained about all the time, but so do lots of other things. For every person complaining that Marines get too many codex updates, there's people complaining that there are new models/units/rules that aren't in the codex and they don't want to carry all these books/FaQs and why doesn't GW consolidate them!
I started playing late 3rd edition, and I remember the years of people complaining about a lack of new content and updates for factions in general. Then we get 8th edition with huge amounts of new content coming out all the time for all the major factions (although more for bigger sellers, obviously), and now people start complaining about having too many books.
People complained for years about how slow FaQ and rule updates were (and good god they were slow), and now we get regular updates and people complain that they're too hard to keep track of and aren't rolled into the Codex immediately.
There are two big problems GW has:
1) They didn't switch to having rules curated in a single digital source 10 years ago. But the reasons they haven't done that are probably complicated, because everyone has always wanted it, and we know their profit off Codices isn't actually that great. Its probably still a dumb reason, but they haven't done it. What they have done is a reasonable business approach within their business model. Overall, this problem is their fault though.
2) The Fanbase are a bunch of whiners who are impossible to please and keep complaining even when they get what they asked for before. GW does a lot of things in a suboptimal manner, and they are bad rules writers. But content release schedule is not a problem. Overall, the problem of a lot of you being impossible to please isn't their fault.
Also, I think its worth noting that after years of Xenos people whining about lack of support, Necrons are suddenly getting one of the largest model wave releases ever, and I don't hear a peep about it from the usual whiners. Of course marines get the most updates and releases, because that's the biggest seller. How much money do you think Necrons were bringing in during 8th in comparison? Not much I'd bet!
Primaris were underperforming for most of 8th when they should have been the leader, so GW beefed them up and released more. That makes sense. Necrons were underperforming for most of 8th too. If you listened to all the complainers, you'd have expected them to get less support due to that. But instead, we see that GW has done a massive investment to expand their range and rules, and placed them front and center for a new edition launch. That's a big deal. They obviously want this faction to be a major part of the hobby again. And if they want it for Necrons, presumably they're going to want it for other Xenos factions with decayed rules and ranges.
Well, they needed the 1st Codex because 8th was a new edition and Primaris had been added.
And they needed the 2nd Codex because Primaris had been weak for all of 8th and marines generally uncompetitive outside early days of Gman Razorback spam.
And they now need the 3rd Codex because there's a huge amount of new units, and all the mid-8th rules to role in, and 9th ed changes.
So no, its not too many. Its the amount they need to keep patching the problems they made for themselves in early 8th. Complaining that its too many is like complaining about having too many patched leaks in your plumbing. Yes, it would have been better if the plumbing had never had leaks in the first place. But it does, so you need all those patches.
The whole problem the whole time has been how poorly conceived 8th edition was, and how they failed to understand how their changes to the rule system would not work with the legacy unit stat lines. Almost all rules complaints from every faction and perspective boil down to this problem in some form. The frenetic release schedule has mostly been to throw bandaids on this problem. And now people complain about the bandaids, while defending the original wound!
yukishiro1 wrote: Their profit margin on rulebooks is way, way lower than on miniatures. The problem is they insist on sticking to this stupid print model that doesn't make any economic sense, not per se that the books are unreasonably expensive for what they are. Printing glossy color books is very expensive.
There's nothing stopping them from releasing soft back books instead of hardbacks though. It would be less expensive and make more sense with the current rate of releases. There's no point in paying more for a hardback if it's going to be obsolete within a year or two, requiring you to buy another one if you want to be up to date.
@Dreadnought: BS. They had Chapter Approved to make adjustments and additions as necessary. They could have also included the new units in the supplements as well. There were plenty of ways to get the additions in, but instead they went for a 70$ combination of books, codex and supplement, that they proceeded to make obsolete in a year. It's ridiculous, and there's no way that it was "necessary" as you say.
yukishiro1 wrote: Their profit margin on rulebooks is way, way lower than on miniatures. The problem is they insist on sticking to this stupid print model that doesn't make any economic sense, not per se that the books are unreasonably expensive for what they are. Printing glossy color books is very expensive.
There's nothing stopping them from releasing soft back books instead of hardbacks though. It would be less expensive and make more sense with the current rate of releases. There's no point in paying more for a hardback if it's going to be obsolete within a year or two, requiring you to buy another one if you want to be up to date.
hardback = premium product
softback = cheap gaming aid
GW wants their Codex to be premium products you buy for the fluff and artwork and not a cheap gaming aid you only buy for the rules
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Also, I think its worth noting that after years of Xenos people whining about lack of support, Necrons are suddenly getting one of the largest model wave releases ever, and I don't hear a peep about it from the usual whiners. Of course marines get the most updates and releases, because that's the biggest seller. How much money do you think Necrons were bringing in during 8th in comparison? Not much I'd bet!
What was the state of the Necron 'dex during 8th? Not good from what I gather.
How many releases did the Necrons get during 8th? I only recall the Slam Dunk Cryptek, plus Szeras alongside Pariah in the last few weeks.
How heavily were Necrons pushed during the edition? Not that much, until we started the build to Indomitus.
Here's the thing - while I can't source it, it's been stated before that the majority of sales for a kit come through in the first few months of release. After that, while you do get long-tail purchases over time, it's nothing near the initial rush. The only real way to influence the long-term purchases is to release an OP 'dex, or a 'dex where the solid units are ones that people may not have purchased in the past - imagine a DE book where Hellions are really good, for example.
If, on the other hand, you release one or two characters, and a mid-to-lower tier Codex, you can't then blame the faction for not selling.
And a big Necron release is a good thing - for Necron players, or people with a passing interesting in Egyptian Terminators. Doesn't do much for an Eldar, Dark Eldar or Tyranid player, which is why tarring all such players with the Xenos brush doesn't help the situation.
yukishiro1 wrote: Their profit margin on rulebooks is way, way lower than on miniatures. The problem is they insist on sticking to this stupid print model that doesn't make any economic sense, not per se that the books are unreasonably expensive for what they are. Printing glossy color books is very expensive.
There's nothing stopping them from releasing soft back books instead of hardbacks though. It would be less expensive and make more sense with the current rate of releases. There's no point in paying more for a hardback if it's going to be obsolete within a year or two, requiring you to buy another one if you want to be up to date.
hardback = premium product
softback = cheap gaming aid
GW wants their Codex to be premium products you buy for the fluff and artwork and not a cheap gaming aid you only buy for the rules
The many grammatical and other faults certainly don't Make it feel like premium
yukishiro1 wrote: Their profit margin on rulebooks is way, way lower than on miniatures. The problem is they insist on sticking to this stupid print model that doesn't make any economic sense, not per se that the books are unreasonably expensive for what they are. Printing glossy color books is very expensive.
There's nothing stopping them from releasing soft back books instead of hardbacks though. It would be less expensive and make more sense with the current rate of releases. There's no point in paying more for a hardback if it's going to be obsolete within a year or two, requiring you to buy another one if you want to be up to date.
hardback = premium product
softback = cheap gaming aid
GW wants their Codex to be premium products you buy for the fluff and artwork and not a cheap gaming aid you only buy for the rules
And what would prevent them from putting that artwork and fluff into a soft back? It worked in previous editions.
Edit: And as Not Online!!! points out, if they are supposed to be a premium product, they should at least be better proofread, and not require an immediate FAQ for the rules they contain.
this,
the books are mostly bad written, full of typos, old artwork and copy & paste texts
the new stuff does not justify the high price and the rules have not a very long lifetime
yet a hardback make to book to feel more worthy/expensive than it might be considering whats in it
GW wants to be like Apple, and you don't be like Apple if you sell cheap looking stuff
so all the money goes into the Cover and to keep the margin high GW saves on content and proof reading
Insectum7 wrote: @Dreadnought: BS. They had Chapter Approved to make adjustments and additions as necessary. They could have also included the new units in the supplements as well. There were plenty of ways to get the additions in, but instead they went for a 70$ combination of books, codex and supplement, that they proceeded to make obsolete in a year. It's ridiculous, and there's no way that it was "necessary" as you say.
And then instead of talking to you, I'd be responding to all the people complaining about rules bloat. And there's actually been more of that the past couple of years than complaints about too many codices. You have demonstrated my point that GW cannot win with the player base overall very well.
Also, whenever people complain about there being so many marine books, there's usually the implication that if GW wasn't releasing marine stuff, they'd be releasing more content for someone else instead. Which is a huge assumption. They expand projects that they think will make them money. If they hadn't been doing Marines, there's a good chance they would have just been doing some other game system instead. It doesn't mean Xenos would have gotten an update sooner.
yukishiro1 wrote: Their profit margin on rulebooks is way, way lower than on miniatures. The problem is they insist on sticking to this stupid print model that doesn't make any economic sense, not per se that the books are unreasonably expensive for what they are. Printing glossy color books is very expensive.
There's nothing stopping them from releasing soft back books instead of hardbacks though. It would be less expensive and make more sense with the current rate of releases. There's no point in paying more for a hardback if it's going to be obsolete within a year or two, requiring you to buy another one if you want to be up to date.
hardback = premium product
softback = cheap gaming aid
GW wants their Codex to be premium products you buy for the fluff and artwork and not a cheap gaming aid you only buy for the rules
And what would prevent them from putting that artwork and fluff into a soft back? It worked in previous editions.
Edit: And as Not Online!!! points out, if they are supposed to be a premium product, they should at least be better proofread, and not require an immediate FAQ for the rules they contain.
This. My original Disciples of Tzeentch battletome is full of colorful pictures and fluff. Even though hardback books look better, I think it's just pointless to make them uniform for the major rulebooks. Well-made softback books are just as good and less expensive.
Insectum7 wrote: @Dreadnought: BS. They had Chapter Approved to make adjustments and additions as necessary. They could have also included the new units in the supplements as well. There were plenty of ways to get the additions in, but instead they went for a 70$ combination of books, codex and supplement, that they proceeded to make obsolete in a year. It's ridiculous, and there's no way that it was "necessary" as you say.
And then instead of talking to you, I'd be responding to all the people complaining about rules bloat. And there's actually been more of that the past couple of years than complaints about too many codices. You have demonstrated my point that GW cannot win with the player base overall very well.
Also, whenever people complain about there being so many marine books, there's usually the implication that if GW wasn't releasing marine stuff, they'd be releasing more content for someone else instead. Which is a huge assumption. They expand projects that they think will make them money. If they hadn't been doing Marines, there's a good chance they would have just been doing some other game system instead. It doesn't mean Xenos would have gotten an update sooner.
Where exactly did this rules bloat come from in my scenario? The same number of rules can exist regardless of where you put them. My point stands, 3 books in 4 years remains totally unneccessary.
kodos wrote: this,
the books are mostly bad written, full of typos, old artwork and copy & paste texts
the new stuff does not justify the high price and the rules have not a very long lifetime
yet a hardback make to book to feel more worthy/expensive than it might be considering whats in it
GW wants to be like Apple, and you don't be like Apple if you sell cheap looking stuff
so all the money goes into the Cover and to keep the margin high GW saves on content and proof reading
Shame really , soon they start selling paint Holder Sets in the 1000s of $$
GW could have just not fethed up the first time. They at least could have the decency not to charge their player base money to fix their own mistakes, and routinely insert more mistakes you have to pay more money months and years down the line to fix...
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Dreadnought They also could start proof reading... there’s tons of ways to win. The problem is that all these solutions are MODERN and they barely grasped the concept of an app just now...
macluvin wrote: GW could have just not fethed up the first time. They at least could have the decency not to charge their player base money to fix their own mistakes, and routinely insert more mistakes you have to pay more money months and years down the line to fix...
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Dreadnought They also could start proof reading... there’s tons of ways to win. The problem is that all these solutions are MODERN and they barely grasped the concept of an app just now...
No, they require time and manpower, both cost money, both are investments that Seem to gw with it's core demographic ,not needed.
All they needed was a pr Department and 7th was forgotten, this will be too, except by those that left for good.
macluvin wrote: GW could have just not fethed up the first time. They at least could have the decency not to charge their player base money to fix their own mistakes, and routinely insert more mistakes you have to pay more money months and years down the line to fix...
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Dreadnought They also could start proof reading... there’s tons of ways to win. The problem is that all these solutions are MODERN and they barely grasped the concept of an app just now...
No, they require time and manpower, both cost money, both are investments that Seem to gw with it's core demographic ,not needed.
All they needed was a pr Department and 7th was forgotten, this will be too, except by those that left for good.
You'd think with that manpower they wouldn't screw up as bad as they do, but here we are.
Even worse is the lack of such an authority in my experience, and really Bad it get's when you get an arrogant incompetent Person in that slot, a "can do no wronger"
Disappointment fatigue? I re-entered the hobby with my hype turned up to 11 just before the start of 8e only to:
- Play with no relics
- Play with base stratgems
- Play with no power creep
Until finally, the codex was released in NovORKtember with the biggest fart of a fanfare I've ever seen, followed by a year of marine circle tossing and more.
I don't know, it just seems pointless to complain about mehreens now.
Even the marines are complaining about only playing marine players and over saturation in models and rules... anyways slayer and not online where are you guys going after 40k? What tabletop game have you seen played that isn’t GW?
macluvin wrote: Even the marines are complaining about only playing marine players and over saturation in models and rules... anyways slayer and not online where are you guys going after 40k? What tabletop game have you seen played that isn’t GW?
I've tried Warmachine before and it was a pretty decent rule set. I'd say the best one I did was Bolt Action and Battletech or whatever the one with the mini mechs was. However it's impossible to get a group going for those so that pickup games are a breeze. It's like how the two party system works in American politics except the third party isn't a bunch of sleezebags unlike Libertarians.
There are only 2 other loyalists @ my flgs so facing power armour really isnt a problem. If anything, I'm sick of facing TS & DG(especially) all.the.fething.time! Hell, I've never even played vs SW, DW and UM,
But, I am all for combining the legions into one book and then supplementing them. as for making all terminators one dataslate feth that noise.
Well, it seems they're doing it for Cataphractii and Tartaros, they're now "Relic Terminators". Still wondering which stat line they're going with. Or if they'll actually make them available to the astartes that actually used them before they were "relics".....
The new Space Marine book will turn out to basically be an Index 2.0.1...
I would not be surprised if we see an even larger number of Supplementary Codices and Special Characters in this edition - selling rules seems to make up the lion's share of GW's profits...
I definitely wouldn't mind seeing the Crimson Fists have their own book - add Chapter Master Pedro Kantor and Captain Cortez...
I mean the Black Templars got a couple of specific rules in the Vigilus Defiant book, they have their Special Characters and are unique enough to get their own Codex.
Carcharodons might differ slightly in organization but not enough in combat Doctrine to warrant their own codex. As long as their rules don't suck is all I care about. Oh and Marines Errant too.
Don't forget the Marines Malevolent. Those guys and the Carcharadons are the only loyalists I give a about. Unless you consider the Ashen Claws loyalists (which I don't), those guys are pretty cool.
Insectum7 wrote: @Dreadnought: BS. They had Chapter Approved to make adjustments and additions as necessary. They could have also included the new units in the supplements as well. There were plenty of ways to get the additions in, but instead they went for a 70$ combination of books, codex and supplement, that they proceeded to make obsolete in a year. It's ridiculous, and there's no way that it was "necessary" as you say.
And then instead of talking to you, I'd be responding to all the people complaining about rules bloat. And there's actually been more of that the past couple of years than complaints about too many codices. You have demonstrated my point that GW cannot win with the player base overall very well.
Also, whenever people complain about there being so many marine books, there's usually the implication that if GW wasn't releasing marine stuff, they'd be releasing more content for someone else instead. Which is a huge assumption. They expand projects that they think will make them money. If they hadn't been doing Marines, there's a good chance they would have just been doing some other game system instead. It doesn't mean Xenos would have gotten an update sooner.
Where exactly did this rules bloat come from in my scenario? The same number of rules can exist regardless of where you put them. My point stands, 3 books in 4 years remains totally unneccessary.
Timmy: "I'd like to start space marines"
Gw staff: "as they were an early codex, at minimum you'll need the 2017(?) Codex, chapter approved 2019, chapter approved 2020, vigilus defiant, faith and fury and a supplement of your choice"
Yes, that seems a lot less necessary than "buy this new codex". Rules bloat isn't referring to number of actual rules, but the sheer volume of publications there spread across.
Whilst I wouldn't want to encourage such a rapid turnaround in codexes under normal circumstances, I'm of the general opinion that this is the right move. I'd rather they do the right thing, rather than the popular thing. I wish they'd also dump the supplements tbh, but there you go.
1. The 2019 codex was a blight upon the game. Obscenely powerful. It needed toning down (which it will receive).
2. Eliminating multiple book requirements.
3. They are now providing digital copies with physical purchases, which will allow for easier ongoing fixes.
macluvin wrote: Even the marines are complaining about only playing marine players and over saturation in models and rules... anyways slayer and not online where are you guys going after 40k? What tabletop game have you seen played that isn’t GW?
Hello! As a long time 40k player I have collapsed with GW fatigue. Already sarted my journet into other games. The one highest in my list is pendraken warband, excellent game with zero player base.
In the future i think i'll have to try bolt action, heard good stuff about it. Also star wars armada looks promising.
Don't forget the Marines Malevolent. Those guys and the Carcharadons are the only loyalists I give a about. Unless you consider the Ashen Claws loyalists (which I don't), those guys are pretty cool.
But your avatar is a Night Lords Chaos Marine - SURELY, if you're interested in Chaos, you would like the Dark Angels as well? No?
As for the new marine book? I said back in May of this year that they would not only release a new marine 'dex right out of the gate, but that it might even be the first codex of 9th. A surprisingly large amount of people kindly explained how I was mistaken because the 2.0 dex wasn't that old and there's "no way" GW would release a new one so soon.
I'm a marine player myself and I shelved them this edition and have focused on my various Chaos projects, as well as my Mechanicus. I think we've reached the point where even the most ardent Marine supporters are looking at the near weekly release schedule of Marines and just shaking their heads. "This week on Warhammer Preview - The super awesome Primaris Tower of His Invincible Light Drop Fortress complete with End Times Boltstorm array and Feth You quantum shielding! Stay tuned for next week's preview of the Dominus class Primaris Battle tank! If you thought the Executioner had a big gun, we've got a surprise for you!"
It's getting so hard to take but at the same time is just so over the top that I can't even be mad at it. I just shake my head and pat my Dark Eldar friend on the back and go back to figuring out the optimal combination of Plague Marines and Demon Engines. "It's ok buddy. They'll start adding the missing units back into your book any day now. Chin up!"
Gadzilla666 wrote: Don't forget the Marines Malevolent. Those guys and the Carcharadons are the only loyalists I give a about. Unless you consider the Ashen Claws loyalists (which I don't), those guys are pretty cool.
They're a good one too. They're a great representation of what happens when Marines become too pragmatic. Shame they don't have more fluff though.
With the speed this book came out and the fact we just got the field manual, I’m willing to guess this is going to be the Marine book from 2019 with Crusade rules bolted on and a few minor tweaks to make units more ‘every chapter’.
If we are lucky a few of the exclusives will become former exclusives, like Lib Dreads and TDA sergeant like characters.
Sim-Life wrote: I'm surprised people don't seem to be angry about the Space Marine codex being on its third iteration in three years while other armies are still basically using their updated Index rules codexes. I'm especially surprised Space Marine players aren't complaining more loudly about having to buy basically yearly updates to the codex.
I am, but mostly because I'm worried about having less options available for my chapter. Anyway, I'm not gonna give GW money for a book of SM stuff, I'll just make some photocopies of the pages I need.
As a Space Wolves player I'm quite ok with it. It gives GW the opportunity to divide their attention equally between the different main marine chapters instead of heavily favoring UM (let's be honest here, Codex: SM was basically Codex: UM with a minimum of flavor for all the other chapters)/BA/DA/SW/DW. Now Imperial/ Crimson Fists, White Scars, Salamanders, Raven Guard, Iron Hands and Black Templars can also get some well deserved attention and I think eventually we'll see a specialized unit for each of them. Sucks a bit if you're BA/DA/SW/DW but with the arrival of the new assault-focused Primaris, bikers and the Gladiator tank I think every chapter will be able to play in a way that befits their fluff (well ok, BA is a bit iffy without Jump Packs... hint hint GW?). And there's another good thing: we'll never have to wait on our chapter-specific codices and rules while vanilla SM is having fun with their new stuff.
But yeah, I agree that it sucks to have to buy a new SM codex again... I feel this could also have been done through a FAQ-like document. Then of course do release the full supplements for SW/DA/BA/DW.
Insectum7 wrote: @Dreadnought: BS. They had Chapter Approved to make adjustments and additions as necessary. They could have also included the new units in the supplements as well. There were plenty of ways to get the additions in, but instead they went for a 70$ combination of books, codex and supplement, that they proceeded to make obsolete in a year. It's ridiculous, and there's no way that it was "necessary" as you say.
And then instead of talking to you, I'd be responding to all the people complaining about rules bloat. And there's actually been more of that the past couple of years than complaints about too many codices. You have demonstrated my point that GW cannot win with the player base overall very well.
Also, whenever people complain about there being so many marine books, there's usually the implication that if GW wasn't releasing marine stuff, they'd be releasing more content for someone else instead. Which is a huge assumption. They expand projects that they think will make them money. If they hadn't been doing Marines, there's a good chance they would have just been doing some other game system instead. It doesn't mean Xenos would have gotten an update sooner.
Where exactly did this rules bloat come from in my scenario? The same number of rules can exist regardless of where you put them. My point stands, 3 books in 4 years remains totally unneccessary.
Timmy: "I'd like to start space marines"
Gw staff: "as they were an early codex, at minimum you'll need the 2017(?) Codex, chapter approved 2019, chapter approved 2020, vigilus defiant, faith and fury and a supplement of your choice"
Yes, that seems a lot less necessary than "buy this new codex". Rules bloat isn't referring to number of actual rules, but the sheer volume of publications there spread across.
Ooorr. . .
1: It's all in the app they just released. Woooooow.
Or
2: One codex, plus a downloadable document with the new units.
Or
3: One codex, plus the rules for new units actually come with the units.
Timmy is probably playing with power level, so no CA. Also "minimum" isn't going to include vigilus defiant, etc. But that should be beside the point anyways because of the app.
Insectum7 wrote: @Dreadnought: BS. They had Chapter Approved to make adjustments and additions as necessary. They could have also included the new units in the supplements as well. There were plenty of ways to get the additions in, but instead they went for a 70$ combination of books, codex and supplement, that they proceeded to make obsolete in a year. It's ridiculous, and there's no way that it was "necessary" as you say.
And then instead of talking to you, I'd be responding to all the people complaining about rules bloat. And there's actually been more of that the past couple of years than complaints about too many codices. You have demonstrated my point that GW cannot win with the player base overall very well.
Also, whenever people complain about there being so many marine books, there's usually the implication that if GW wasn't releasing marine stuff, they'd be releasing more content for someone else instead. Which is a huge assumption. They expand projects that they think will make them money. If they hadn't been doing Marines, there's a good chance they would have just been doing some other game system instead. It doesn't mean Xenos would have gotten an update sooner.
Where exactly did this rules bloat come from in my scenario? The same number of rules can exist regardless of where you put them. My point stands, 3 books in 4 years remains totally unneccessary.
Timmy: "I'd like to start space marines"
Gw staff: "as they were an early codex, at minimum you'll need the 2017(?) Codex, chapter approved 2019, chapter approved 2020, vigilus defiant, faith and fury and a supplement of your choice"
Yes, that seems a lot less necessary than "buy this new codex". Rules bloat isn't referring to number of actual rules, but the sheer volume of publications there spread across.
Ooorr. . .
1: It's all in the app they just released. Woooooow.
Or
2: One codex, plus a downloadable document with the new units.
Or
3: One codex, plus the rules for new units actually come with the units.
Timmy is probably playing with power level, so no CA. Also "minimum" isn't going to include vigilus defiant, etc. But that should be beside the point anyways because of the app.
To toe that back into reality, why would the new player still prefer all that crap to just having a new book with it all in one place?
It's not currently 1 codex with a pdf, that would take... a new codex.
Whilst I wouldn't want to encourage such a rapid turnaround in codexes under normal circumstances, I'm of the general opinion that this is the right move. I'd rather they do the right thing, rather than the popular thing. I wish they'd also dump the supplements tbh, but there you go.
1. The 2019 codex was a blight upon the game. Obscenely powerful. It needed toning down (which it will receive).
2. Eliminating multiple book requirements.
3. They are now providing digital copies with physical purchases, which will allow for easier ongoing fixes.
I don't know why you are assuming Space marines will be toned down.
Insectum7 wrote: @Dreadnought: BS. They had Chapter Approved to make adjustments and additions as necessary. They could have also included the new units in the supplements as well. There were plenty of ways to get the additions in, but instead they went for a 70$ combination of books, codex and supplement, that they proceeded to make obsolete in a year. It's ridiculous, and there's no way that it was "necessary" as you say.
And then instead of talking to you, I'd be responding to all the people complaining about rules bloat. And there's actually been more of that the past couple of years than complaints about too many codices. You have demonstrated my point that GW cannot win with the player base overall very well.
Also, whenever people complain about there being so many marine books, there's usually the implication that if GW wasn't releasing marine stuff, they'd be releasing more content for someone else instead. Which is a huge assumption. They expand projects that they think will make them money. If they hadn't been doing Marines, there's a good chance they would have just been doing some other game system instead. It doesn't mean Xenos would have gotten an update sooner.
Where exactly did this rules bloat come from in my scenario? The same number of rules can exist regardless of where you put them. My point stands, 3 books in 4 years remains totally unneccessary.
Timmy: "I'd like to start space marines"
Gw staff: "as they were an early codex, at minimum you'll need the 2017(?) Codex, chapter approved 2019, chapter approved 2020, vigilus defiant, faith and fury and a supplement of your choice"
Yes, that seems a lot less necessary than "buy this new codex". Rules bloat isn't referring to number of actual rules, but the sheer volume of publications there spread across.
Ooorr. . .
1: It's all in the app they just released. Woooooow.
Or
2: One codex, plus a downloadable document with the new units.
Or
3: One codex, plus the rules for new units actually come with the units.
Timmy is probably playing with power level, so no CA. Also "minimum" isn't going to include vigilus defiant, etc. But that should be beside the point anyways because of the app.
To toe that back into reality, why would the new player still prefer all that crap to just having a new book with it all in one place?
Why would a player investing in the hobby prefer that their investment will last a while, as opposed to being faced with the apparent current situation of spending 40$ (plus a 30$ supplement?) a year for the sake of a couple unit additions amounting to a 3% change in content from book to book? Is that your question? I think the answer is pretty obvious.
It's not currently 1 codex with a pdf, that would take... a new codex.
No sure what you're saying. Are you claiming it's impossible to release a PDF that provides the various additions and adjustments to a book that's a few years old?
Insectum7 wrote: @Dreadnought: BS. They had Chapter Approved to make adjustments and additions as necessary. They could have also included the new units in the supplements as well. There were plenty of ways to get the additions in, but instead they went for a 70$ combination of books, codex and supplement, that they proceeded to make obsolete in a year. It's ridiculous, and there's no way that it was "necessary" as you say.
And then instead of talking to you, I'd be responding to all the people complaining about rules bloat. And there's actually been more of that the past couple of years than complaints about too many codices. You have demonstrated my point that GW cannot win with the player base overall very well.
Also, whenever people complain about there being so many marine books, there's usually the implication that if GW wasn't releasing marine stuff, they'd be releasing more content for someone else instead. Which is a huge assumption. They expand projects that they think will make them money. If they hadn't been doing Marines, there's a good chance they would have just been doing some other game system instead. It doesn't mean Xenos would have gotten an update sooner.
Where exactly did this rules bloat come from in my scenario? The same number of rules can exist regardless of where you put them. My point stands, 3 books in 4 years remains totally unneccessary.
Timmy: "I'd like to start space marines"
Gw staff: "as they were an early codex, at minimum you'll need the 2017(?) Codex, chapter approved 2019, chapter approved 2020, vigilus defiant, faith and fury and a supplement of your choice"
Yes, that seems a lot less necessary than "buy this new codex". Rules bloat isn't referring to number of actual rules, but the sheer volume of publications there spread across.
Ooorr. . .
1: It's all in the app they just released. Woooooow.
Or
2: One codex, plus a downloadable document with the new units.
Or
3: One codex, plus the rules for new units actually come with the units.
Timmy is probably playing with power level, so no CA. Also "minimum" isn't going to include vigilus defiant, etc. But that should be beside the point anyways because of the app.
To toe that back into reality, why would the new player still prefer all that crap to just having a new book with it all in one place?
Why would a player investing in the hobby prefer that their investment will last a while, as opposed to being faced with the apparent current situation of spending 40$ (plus a 30$ supplement?) a year for the sake of a couple unit additions amounting to a 3% change in content from book to book? Is that your question? I think the answer is pretty obvious.
It's not currently 1 codex with a pdf, that would take... a new codex.
No sure what you're saying. Are you claiming it's impossible to release a PDF that provides the various additions and adjustments to a book that's a few years old?
As a new marines player (I am as of this week), I'd rather buy a new codex than hunt down 4-5 books for all the rules I want. If I have to buy expansion book A in 12 months that happens to cost the same as a codex for 3% changes (current business practice), I'd rather not have to do that just to maintain longevity.
Regards 1 book and a pdf, well you're currently proposing their PA and vigilus content be re-release for free in pdf format which is unrealistic.
Edit to clarify, I'm not saying they do the right thing now, just that a new codex actually makes sense right now for a couple of reasons.
Don't forget the Marines Malevolent. Those guys and the Carcharadons are the only loyalists I give a about. Unless you consider the Ashen Claws loyalists (which I don't), those guys are pretty cool.
But your avatar is a Night Lords Chaos Marine - SURELY, if you're interested in Chaos, you would like the Dark Angels as well? No?
Not sure if you're making a joke about the whole "Dark Angels are really traitors" thing or the history between the Night Lords and the Dark Angels. If it's the former then: . If it's the latter then: .
Not sure if you're making a joke about the whole "Dark Angels are really traitors" thing or the history between the Night Lords and the Dark Angels. If it's the former then: . If it's the latter then: .
I wish I was that clever, but no - I meant the former. I completely forgot about the other stuff! lol
Insectum7 wrote: @Dreadnought: BS. They had Chapter Approved to make adjustments and additions as necessary. They could have also included the new units in the supplements as well. There were plenty of ways to get the additions in, but instead they went for a 70$ combination of books, codex and supplement, that they proceeded to make obsolete in a year. It's ridiculous, and there's no way that it was "necessary" as you say.
And then instead of talking to you, I'd be responding to all the people complaining about rules bloat. And there's actually been more of that the past couple of years than complaints about too many codices. You have demonstrated my point that GW cannot win with the player base overall very well.
Also, whenever people complain about there being so many marine books, there's usually the implication that if GW wasn't releasing marine stuff, they'd be releasing more content for someone else instead. Which is a huge assumption. They expand projects that they think will make them money. If they hadn't been doing Marines, there's a good chance they would have just been doing some other game system instead. It doesn't mean Xenos would have gotten an update sooner.
Where exactly did this rules bloat come from in my scenario? The same number of rules can exist regardless of where you put them. My point stands, 3 books in 4 years remains totally unneccessary.
Timmy: "I'd like to start space marines"
Gw staff: "as they were an early codex, at minimum you'll need the 2017(?) Codex, chapter approved 2019, chapter approved 2020, vigilus defiant, faith and fury and a supplement of your choice"
Yes, that seems a lot less necessary than "buy this new codex". Rules bloat isn't referring to number of actual rules, but the sheer volume of publications there spread across.
Ooorr. . .
1: It's all in the app they just released. Woooooow.
Or
2: One codex, plus a downloadable document with the new units.
Or
3: One codex, plus the rules for new units actually come with the units.
Timmy is probably playing with power level, so no CA. Also "minimum" isn't going to include vigilus defiant, etc. But that should be beside the point anyways because of the app.
To toe that back into reality, why would the new player still prefer all that crap to just having a new book with it all in one place?
Why would a player investing in the hobby prefer that their investment will last a while, as opposed to being faced with the apparent current situation of spending 40$ (plus a 30$ supplement?) a year for the sake of a couple unit additions amounting to a 3% change in content from book to book? Is that your question? I think the answer is pretty obvious.
It's not currently 1 codex with a pdf, that would take... a new codex.
No sure what you're saying. Are you claiming it's impossible to release a PDF that provides the various additions and adjustments to a book that's a few years old?
As a new marines player (I am as of this week), I'd rather buy a new codex than hunt down 4-5 books for all the rules I want. If I have to buy expansion book A in 12 months that happens to cost the same as a codex for 3% changes (current business practice), I'd rather not have to do that just to maintain longevity.
Right, if you were an existing player you wouldn't like it either. If you were a new, non-marine player you'd also still be buying a codex and trying to figure our where any other rules were too.
Regards 1 book and a pdf, well you're currently proposing their PA and vigilus content be re-release for free in pdf format which is unrealistic.
Is it though? The rules for new units come in the boxes the units come in already. I could totally see a paradigm where the first release of rules comes at a cost and after some time limit they just put them online for free. As it stands, you can get the app and apparently get ALL the rules for ALL the factions and ALL the expansions for 4.99 a month. They're essentially obsoleting the rules portion of the expansion books with a digital format anyways. You don't even have to release them for free, just charge a couple bucks for an "advanced errata" or something and be done with it. The pattern would be: Buy codex, download/purchase digital companion.
Edit to clarify, I'm not saying they do the right thing now, just that a new codex actually makes sense right now for a couple of reasons.
The "sense" is they know they can do it and it will sell, even if its eggregious.
Insectum7 wrote: @Dreadnought: BS. They had Chapter Approved to make adjustments and additions as necessary. They could have also included the new units in the supplements as well. There were plenty of ways to get the additions in, but instead they went for a 70$ combination of books, codex and supplement, that they proceeded to make obsolete in a year. It's ridiculous, and there's no way that it was "necessary" as you say.
And then instead of talking to you, I'd be responding to all the people complaining about rules bloat. And there's actually been more of that the past couple of years than complaints about too many codices. You have demonstrated my point that GW cannot win with the player base overall very well.
Also, whenever people complain about there being so many marine books, there's usually the implication that if GW wasn't releasing marine stuff, they'd be releasing more content for someone else instead. Which is a huge assumption. They expand projects that they think will make them money. If they hadn't been doing Marines, there's a good chance they would have just been doing some other game system instead. It doesn't mean Xenos would have gotten an update sooner.
Where exactly did this rules bloat come from in my scenario? The same number of rules can exist regardless of where you put them. My point stands, 3 books in 4 years remains totally unneccessary.
Timmy: "I'd like to start space marines"
Gw staff: "as they were an early codex, at minimum you'll need the 2017(?) Codex, chapter approved 2019, chapter approved 2020, vigilus defiant, faith and fury and a supplement of your choice"
Yes, that seems a lot less necessary than "buy this new codex". Rules bloat isn't referring to number of actual rules, but the sheer volume of publications there spread across.
Ooorr. . .
1: It's all in the app they just released. Woooooow.
Or
2: One codex, plus a downloadable document with the new units.
Or
3: One codex, plus the rules for new units actually come with the units.
Timmy is probably playing with power level, so no CA. Also "minimum" isn't going to include vigilus defiant, etc. But that should be beside the point anyways because of the app.
Ah yes the app that fell apart day 1 and dropped the ball on every occasion... from the rules, to major proof reading errors of army entries, no army builder... and for a lot of people they don’t even get to explore that because the app just crashes all the time! Plus Timmy has to pay monthly subscription fees... also once his 9e codex launches he’ll have to buy the codex anyways.
^Hehe, the app doesn't even startup on my phone. But a bad execution doesn't make it a bad idea.
" once his 9e codex launches he’ll have to buy the codex anyways."
True, but a working app means far less of a reason to immediately release a new codex only a single year after the last one. Timmy wouldn't need a new book for a while.
... you mean like they are literally about to (release codex within a year of last codex)? The app will have no effect on the amount of poorly written rule books you’ll have to buy. All it is is a convenient way to charge 5 bucks for a list building app that probably won’t be anywhere on par with BattleScribe, and a convenient centralized place in which to browse all the 50/60 usd rulebooks you bought. Yo dawg I heard you liked paying for rules... so I got you an app that lets you pay for rules after you paid for those rules!
macluvin wrote: ... you mean like they are literally about to (release codex within a year of last codex)?
Ya. I'm saying that instead of releasing another SM book so soon, spend the effort on something else and do any SM updates with errata or other method. That's my whole point.
I would rather pay for a new book every 6 months then go back to 5+ year stretch of no updates. CSM did not even get a book in 5th edition (nor did some other armies).
And yes Marines are getting more and more, but there have been some pretty significant releases for other armies including Death guard, Admech, GSC, CSM, Orks, Necrons, and the final creation of plastic sisters just off the top of my head. And all that was all within like a 2 to 2 1/2 year span.
Overall things are much much better now than they were and I would rather have the more books, having to pay yearly to get Chapter Approved or even a codex, then have factions not touched for years on end.
I would rather pay for a new book every 6 months then go back to 5+ year stretch of no updates. CSM did not even get a book in 5th edition (nor did some other armies).
Overall things are much much better now than they were and I would rather have the more books, having to pay yearly to get Chapter Approved or even a codex, then have factions not touched for years on end.
Agree with these two paragraphs completely. Especially because my favorite armies tend to be the ones that get stuck for multiple editions with the BAD codexes. I do wish we didn't have to pay for the CA points adjustments, but after years of complaining that GW's release cycle was too slow, I'm not about to complain that it's fast now.
And yes Marines are getting more and more, but there have been some pretty significant releases for other armies including Death guard, Admech, GSC, CSM, Orks, Necrons, and the final creation of plastic sisters just off the top of my head. And all that was all within like a 2 to 2 1/2 year span.
This is where we disagree a little. In that same two and a half year span, look at how much marines got, and continue to get. It's becoming utterly ridiculous. Like I said above, I'm happy at how often they're releasing things now, but armies like my DG have now gone a little over 3 years with essentially nothing. Dark Eldar are even worse. The irony here is that even thought the release schedule has hit unprecedented speed, a lot of armies are in the same boat as they were before because all of that new capacity is being put towards an all marines all the time schedule.
Now, that being said, once October hits, if we then go on like a 10 month stretch where marines get nothing but the standard FAQ updates and everyone else finally gets proper attention, I'll happily come back to this thread an apologize. lol But yeah, enough already w/the marine releases ...
macluvin wrote: Who needs to buy rules when battlescribe got your back anyways? XD yeah the constant rules updates has its benefits and it’s pains.
Anyone with a conscience and without a parrot and/or a peg leg?
If no-one buys the books because they're all using your precious Battlescribe, there is no financial incentive for GW to produce any rules material.
When GW produces rules material that isn't invalidated within 2 weeks by a FAQ/Errata to fix all their feth ups I will be happy to pay them for a product that is worth the cover price. Until then why should I give them money for a bunch of paper that has no value?
macluvin wrote: Who needs to buy rules when battlescribe got your back anyways? XD yeah the constant rules updates has its benefits and it’s pains.
Anyone with a conscience and without a parrot and/or a peg leg?
If no-one buys the books because they're all using your precious Battlescribe, there is no financial incentive for GW to produce any rules material.
How many minis game companies in the world use GW's rulebook model? Has FFG stopped writing rules because people can play their games without buying hardback rulebooks or paying subscription fees? Corvus Belli? Privateer Press? Warlord? Mantic?
...Come to think of it there's no financial incentive for me to produce any rules material, but I seem to keep doing it.
macluvin wrote: Who needs to buy rules when battlescribe got your back anyways? XD yeah the constant rules updates has its benefits and it’s pains.
Anyone with a conscience and without a parrot and/or a peg leg?
If no-one buys the books because they're all using your precious Battlescribe, there is no financial incentive for GW to produce any rules material.
How many minis game companies in the world use GW's rulebook model? Has FFG stopped writing rules because people can play their games without buying hardback rulebooks or paying subscription fees? Corvus Belli? Privateer Press? Warlord? Mantic?
...Come to think of it there's no financial incentive for me to produce any rules material, but I seem to keep doing it.
I was about to say, GW is one of very few wargaming companies that charges money for rules. Charging me money to fix mistakes in their last set of rules they charged me money for, I feel like is even more piratical.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also while continuing to make more mistakes so they can rip me off again... no thank you.
And yes Marines are getting more and more, but there have been some pretty significant releases for other armies including Death guard, Admech, GSC, CSM, Orks, Necrons, and the final creation of plastic sisters just off the top of my head. And all that was all within like a 2 to 2 1/2 year span.
Don't forget Aeldari with Incubi and Banshees.
But these releases bar Primaris are not significant enough. This is where GW makes money.
It appears that we will see more Primaris releases in the near future, like Landspeeder and Gladiator.
The effect of the concentration on Primaris eventually makes 40k a one-dimensional game.
Imagine if you go with your IH army to a two-day tourney and you play twice vs. IH, once vs. RG, once vs. Sallies and once vs. BT.
Then there will be a threshold when players may turn away from the game.
And yes Marines are getting more and more, but there have been some pretty significant releases for other armies including Death guard, Admech, GSC, CSM, Orks, Necrons, and the final creation of plastic sisters just off the top of my head. And all that was all within like a 2 to 2 1/2 year span.
Don't forget Aeldari with Incubi and Banshees.
But these releases bar Primaris are not significant enough. This is where GW makes money.
It appears that we will see more Primaris releases in the near future, like Landspeeder and Gladiator.
The effect of the concentration on Primaris eventually makes 40k a one-dimensional game.
Imagine if you go with your IH army to a two-day tourney and you play twice vs. IH, once vs. RG, once vs. Sallies and once vs. BT.
Then there will be a threshold when players may turn away from the game.
Heck at that stage you might aswell play 30k, except that even there non marines have more support
I buy the codexes, and the core rules. I used to use battle-scribe to fit a need. still supported GW by buying their products though... now GW wants to fit the need but are , currently, doing a poor job. Honestly, I dont feel a need to support GW further for rules I have already bought physically. The designers should be getting a cut from my purchase already. I paid for the print. and I know there servers arn't worth that monthly fee they want me to pay for their app.
Also, when it comes to the amount of work, care to detail, and just sheer effectiveness of it all, I would much rather financially support the battle-scribe community... unfortunately if there was an easy way to do that the GW lawyers would decend like the emperors angels.
macluvin wrote: Who needs to buy rules when battlescribe got your back anyways? XD yeah the constant rules updates has its benefits and it’s pains.
Anyone with a conscience and without a parrot and/or a peg leg?
If no-one buys the books because they're all using your precious Battlescribe, there is no financial incentive for GW to produce any rules material.
Good. They overcharge for tons of mistakes and then have the audacity to try and charge us for documents fixing said mistakes.
feth them. You really wanna go with the "conscience" argument? Look at whom you're deciding to defend with it.
That the company stops making rules and goes bust because they assume people don't want to play?
Nope, they're a MODEL company remember? Hell if they stopped producing rules we night get more incentive from other people to make a better rule set (which is a pretty low bar to begin with).
Either they start to care about their product or we ain't paying to play. Simple as that.
macluvin wrote: Who needs to buy rules when battlescribe got your back anyways? XD yeah the constant rules updates has its benefits and it’s pains.
Anyone with a conscience and without a parrot and/or a peg leg?
If no-one buys the books because they're all using your precious Battlescribe, there is no financial incentive for GW to produce any rules material.
Good. They overcharge for tons of mistakes and then have the audacity to try and charge us for documents fixing said mistakes.
feth them. You really wanna go with the "conscience" argument? Look at whom you're deciding to defend with it.
That the company stops making rules and goes bust because they assume people don't want to play?
Nope, they're a MODEL company remember? Hell if they stopped producing rules we night get more incentive from other people to make a better rule set (which is a pretty low bar to begin with).
Either they start to care about their product or we ain't paying to play. Simple as that.
If they don't make rules you aren't playing 40k. So either you pay for some rules or find another game which you seem to be allergic to doing.
macluvin wrote: Who needs to buy rules when battlescribe got your back anyways? XD yeah the constant rules updates has its benefits and it’s pains.
Anyone with a conscience and without a parrot and/or a peg leg?
If no-one buys the books because they're all using your precious Battlescribe, there is no financial incentive for GW to produce any rules material.
Good. They overcharge for tons of mistakes and then have the audacity to try and charge us for documents fixing said mistakes.
feth them. You really wanna go with the "conscience" argument? Look at whom you're deciding to defend with it.
That the company stops making rules and goes bust because they assume people don't want to play?
Nope, they're a MODEL company remember? Hell if they stopped producing rules we night get more incentive from other people to make a better rule set (which is a pretty low bar to begin with).
Either they start to care about their product or we ain't paying to play. Simple as that.
If they don't make rules you aren't playing 40k. So either you pay for some rules or find another game which you seem to be allergic to doing.
You do realize how hard it is to get another group started. I already tried. However the moment GW stops producing rules we can use the models for better purposes. If anything that would be healthier for them instead of charging for what is almost literal garbage, and quite frankly the fact that the community is more starting to agree with this point of view means they need to actually care.
You basically admit you're okay with a bad product. You don't get change the way you're doing things.
macluvin wrote: Who needs to buy rules when battlescribe got your back anyways? XD yeah the constant rules updates has its benefits and it’s pains.
Anyone with a conscience and without a parrot and/or a peg leg?
If no-one buys the books because they're all using your precious Battlescribe, there is no financial incentive for GW to produce any rules material.
Good. They overcharge for tons of mistakes and then have the audacity to try and charge us for documents fixing said mistakes.
feth them. You really wanna go with the "conscience" argument? Look at whom you're deciding to defend with it.
That the company stops making rules and goes bust because they assume people don't want to play?
Nope, they're a MODEL company remember? Hell if they stopped producing rules we night get more incentive from other people to make a better rule set (which is a pretty low bar to begin with).
Either they start to care about their product or we ain't paying to play. Simple as that.
If they don't make rules you aren't playing 40k. So either you pay for some rules or find another game which you seem to be allergic to doing.
I like how you suggest that like getting people to drop hundreds of currency on a new game then maintain it is as simple as just bringing it up. The reason 40k is the monolith that it is is that everyone generally starts the hobby with it, so they're already heavily invested and they pretty much know the game. We had a relatively small group (like 4 people) and we played a bunch of other games for a while, but as soon as the group got bigger (10+) when 8th brought people back in suddenly it was all 40k because it was just easier to organise games of it.
macluvin wrote: Who needs to buy rules when battlescribe got your back anyways? XD yeah the constant rules updates has its benefits and it’s pains.
Anyone with a conscience and without a parrot and/or a peg leg?
If no-one buys the books because they're all using your precious Battlescribe, there is no financial incentive for GW to produce any rules material.
Good. They overcharge for tons of mistakes and then have the audacity to try and charge us for documents fixing said mistakes.
feth them. You really wanna go with the "conscience" argument? Look at whom you're deciding to defend with it.
That the company stops making rules and goes bust because they assume people don't want to play?
Nope, they're a MODEL company remember? Hell if they stopped producing rules we night get more incentive from other people to make a better rule set (which is a pretty low bar to begin with).
Either they start to care about their product or we ain't paying to play. Simple as that.
If they don't make rules you aren't playing 40k. So either you pay for some rules or find another game which you seem to be allergic to doing.
I like how you suggest that like getting people to drop hundreds of currency on a new game then maintain it is as simple as just bringing it up. The reason 40k is the monolith that it is is that everyone generally starts the hobby with it, so they're already heavily invested and they pretty much know the game. We had a relatively small group (like 4 people) and we played a bunch of other games for a while, but as soon as the group got bigger (10+) when 8th brought people back in suddenly it was all 40k because it was just easier to organise games of it.
It isn't, that's my point. If everyone stopped buying GW rules and just stole them online for free like Slay advocates, GW will simply stop making them. Then you need to find another game to play.
macluvin wrote: Who needs to buy rules when battlescribe got your back anyways? XD yeah the constant rules updates has its benefits and it’s pains.
Anyone with a conscience and without a parrot and/or a peg leg?
If no-one buys the books because they're all using your precious Battlescribe, there is no financial incentive for GW to produce any rules material.
Good. They overcharge for tons of mistakes and then have the audacity to try and charge us for documents fixing said mistakes.
feth them. You really wanna go with the "conscience" argument? Look at whom you're deciding to defend with it.
That the company stops making rules and goes bust because they assume people don't want to play?
Nope, they're a MODEL company remember? Hell if they stopped producing rules we night get more incentive from other people to make a better rule set (which is a pretty low bar to begin with).
Either they start to care about their product or we ain't paying to play. Simple as that.
If they don't make rules you aren't playing 40k. So either you pay for some rules or find another game which you seem to be allergic to doing.
I like how you suggest that like getting people to drop hundreds of currency on a new game then maintain it is as simple as just bringing it up. The reason 40k is the monolith that it is is that everyone generally starts the hobby with it, so they're already heavily invested and they pretty much know the game. We had a relatively small group (like 4 people) and we played a bunch of other games for a while, but as soon as the group got bigger (10+) when 8th brought people back in suddenly it was all 40k because it was just easier to organise games of it.
It isn't, that's my point. If everyone stopped buying GW rules and just stole them online for free like Slay advocates, GW will simply stop making them. Then you need to find another game to play.
The rules drive model sales. If GW stops making rules they stop making anything.
about. Unless you consider the Ashen Claws loyalists (which I don't), those guys are pretty cool.
