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this,
the books are mostly bad written, full of typos, old artwork and copy & paste texts
the new stuff does not justify the high price and the rules have not a very long lifetime

yet a hardback make to book to feel more worthy/expensive than it might be considering whats in it

GW wants to be like Apple, and you don't be like Apple if you sell cheap looking stuff


so all the money goes into the Cover and to keep the margin high GW saves on content and proof reading

 Insectum7 wrote:
@Dreadnought: BS. They had Chapter Approved to make adjustments and additions as necessary. They could have also included the new units in the supplements as well. There were plenty of ways to get the additions in, but instead they went for a 70$ combination of books, codex and supplement, that they proceeded to make obsolete in a year. It's ridiculous, and there's no way that it was "necessary" as you say.

And then instead of talking to you, I'd be responding to all the people complaining about rules bloat. And there's actually been more of that the past couple of years than complaints about too many codices. You have demonstrated my point that GW cannot win with the player base overall very well.

Also, whenever people complain about there being so many marine books, there's usually the implication that if GW wasn't releasing marine stuff, they'd be releasing more content for someone else instead. Which is a huge assumption. They expand projects that they think will make them money. If they hadn't been doing Marines, there's a good chance they would have just been doing some other game system instead. It doesn't mean Xenos would have gotten an update sooner.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Their profit margin on rulebooks is way, way lower than on miniatures. The problem is they insist on sticking to this stupid print model that doesn't make any economic sense, not per se that the books are unreasonably expensive for what they are. Printing glossy color books is very expensive.

There's nothing stopping them from releasing soft back books instead of hardbacks though. It would be less expensive and make more sense with the current rate of releases. There's no point in paying more for a hardback if it's going to be obsolete within a year or two, requiring you to buy another one if you want to be up to date.

hardback = premium product
softback = cheap gaming aid

GW wants their Codex to be premium products you buy for the fluff and artwork and not a cheap gaming aid you only buy for the rules

And what would prevent them from putting that artwork and fluff into a soft back? It worked in previous editions.

Edit: And as Not Online!!! points out, if they are supposed to be a premium product, they should at least be better proofread, and not require an immediate FAQ for the rules they contain.

This. My original Disciples of Tzeentch battletome is full of colorful pictures and fluff. Even though hardback books look better, I think it's just pointless to make them uniform for the major rulebooks. Well-made softback books are just as good and less expensive.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
@Dreadnought: BS. They had Chapter Approved to make adjustments and additions as necessary. They could have also included the new units in the supplements as well. There were plenty of ways to get the additions in, but instead they went for a 70$ combination of books, codex and supplement, that they proceeded to make obsolete in a year. It's ridiculous, and there's no way that it was "necessary" as you say.

And then instead of talking to you, I'd be responding to all the people complaining about rules bloat. And there's actually been more of that the past couple of years than complaints about too many codices. You have demonstrated my point that GW cannot win with the player base overall very well.

Also, whenever people complain about there being so many marine books, there's usually the implication that if GW wasn't releasing marine stuff, they'd be releasing more content for someone else instead. Which is a huge assumption. They expand projects that they think will make them money. If they hadn't been doing Marines, there's a good chance they would have just been doing some other game system instead. It doesn't mean Xenos would have gotten an update sooner.

Where exactly did this rules bloat come from in my scenario? The same number of rules can exist regardless of where you put them. My point stands, 3 books in 4 years remains totally unneccessary.

 kodos wrote:
this,
the books are mostly bad written, full of typos, old artwork and copy & paste texts
the new stuff does not justify the high price and the rules have not a very long lifetime

yet a hardback make to book to feel more worthy/expensive than it might be considering whats in it

GW wants to be like Apple, and you don't be like Apple if you sell cheap looking stuff


so all the money goes into the Cover and to keep the margin high GW saves on content and proof reading

Shame really , soon they start selling paint Holder Sets in the 1000s of $$

GW could have just not fethed up the first time. They at least could have the decency not to charge their player base money to fix their own mistakes, and routinely insert more mistakes you have to pay more money months and years down the line to fix...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Dreadnought They also could start proof reading... there’s tons of ways to win. The problem is that all these solutions are MODERN and they barely grasped the concept of an app just now...

macluvin wrote:
GW could have just not fethed up the first time. They at least could have the decency not to charge their player base money to fix their own mistakes, and routinely insert more mistakes you have to pay more money months and years down the line to fix...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Dreadnought They also could start proof reading... there’s tons of ways to win. The problem is that all these solutions are MODERN and they barely grasped the concept of an app just now...

No, they require time and manpower, both cost money, both are investments that Seem to gw with it's core demographic ,not needed.

All they needed was a pr Department and 7th was forgotten, this will be too, except by those that left for good.

Not Online!!! wrote:

macluvin wrote:
GW could have just not fethed up the first time. They at least could have the decency not to charge their player base money to fix their own mistakes, and routinely insert more mistakes you have to pay more money months and years down the line to fix...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Dreadnought They also could start proof reading... there’s tons of ways to win. The problem is that all these solutions are MODERN and they barely grasped the concept of an app just now...

No, they require time and manpower, both cost money, both are investments that Seem to gw with it's core demographic ,not needed.

All they needed was a pr Department and 7th was forgotten, this will be too, except by those that left for good.

You'd think with that manpower they wouldn't screw up as bad as they do, but here we are.

When you hire 100 Designers , producers etc, but have not one Editor do you expect the rules and writing to be quality tho?

It's not just manpower alone but for the Position qualifierd Manpower.

Not Online!!! wrote:
When you hire 100 Designers , producers etc, but have not one Editor do you expect the rules and writing to be quality tho?

It's not just manpower alone but for the Position qualifierd Manpower.

Can verify. All it takes is one less-than-competent person remaining in a position of authority to mess up the whole thing.

Even worse is the lack of such an authority in my experience, and really Bad it get's when you get an arrogant incompetent Person in that slot, a "can do no wronger"


Can Lead to international incIdents that...

Disappointment fatigue? I re-entered the hobby with my hype turned up to 11 just before the start of 8e only to:
- Play with no relics
- Play with base stratgems
- Play with no power creep

Until finally, the codex was released in NovORKtember with the biggest fart of a fanfare I've ever seen, followed by a year of marine circle tossing and more.

I don't know, it just seems pointless to complain about mehreens now.

Even the marines are complaining about only playing marine players and over saturation in models and rules... anyways slayer and not online where are you guys going after 40k? What tabletop game have you seen played that isn’t GW?

macluvin wrote:
Even the marines are complaining about only playing marine players and over saturation in models and rules... anyways slayer and not online where are you guys going after 40k? What tabletop game have you seen played that isn’t GW?

I've tried Warmachine before and it was a pretty decent rule set. I'd say the best one I did was Bolt Action and Battletech or whatever the one with the mini mechs was. However it's impossible to get a group going for those so that pickup games are a breeze. It's like how the two party system works in American politics except the third party isn't a bunch of sleezebags unlike Libertarians.

There are only 2 other loyalists @ my flgs so facing power armour really isnt a problem. If anything, I'm sick of facing TS & DG(especially) all.the.fething.time! Hell, I've never even played vs SW, DW and UM,

But, I am all for combining the legions into one book and then supplementing them. as for making all terminators one dataslate feth that noise.

Well, it seems they're doing it for Cataphractii and Tartaros, they're now "Relic Terminators". Still wondering which stat line they're going with. Or if they'll actually make them available to the astartes that actually used them before they were "relics".....

The new Space Marine book will turn out to basically be an Index 2.0.1...

I would not be surprised if we see an even larger number of Supplementary Codices and Special Characters in this edition - selling rules seems to make up the lion's share of GW's profits...

I definitely wouldn't mind seeing the Crimson Fists have their own book - add Chapter Master Pedro Kantor and Captain Cortez...



I mean the Black Templars got a couple of specific rules in the Vigilus Defiant book, they have their Special Characters and are unique enough to get their own Codex.

Hell, add Codex Carcharodons too!

Carcharodons might differ slightly in organization but not enough in combat Doctrine to warrant their own codex. As long as their rules don't suck is all I care about. Oh and Marines Errant too.

Don't forget the Marines Malevolent. Those guys and the Carcharadons are the only loyalists I give a about. Unless you consider the Ashen Claws loyalists (which I don't), those guys are pretty cool.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
@Dreadnought: BS. They had Chapter Approved to make adjustments and additions as necessary. They could have also included the new units in the supplements as well. There were plenty of ways to get the additions in, but instead they went for a 70$ combination of books, codex and supplement, that they proceeded to make obsolete in a year. It's ridiculous, and there's no way that it was "necessary" as you say.

And then instead of talking to you, I'd be responding to all the people complaining about rules bloat. And there's actually been more of that the past couple of years than complaints about too many codices. You have demonstrated my point that GW cannot win with the player base overall very well.

Also, whenever people complain about there being so many marine books, there's usually the implication that if GW wasn't releasing marine stuff, they'd be releasing more content for someone else instead. Which is a huge assumption. They expand projects that they think will make them money. If they hadn't been doing Marines, there's a good chance they would have just been doing some other game system instead. It doesn't mean Xenos would have gotten an update sooner.

Where exactly did this rules bloat come from in my scenario? The same number of rules can exist regardless of where you put them. My point stands, 3 books in 4 years remains totally unneccessary.

Timmy: "I'd like to start space marines"
Gw staff: "as they were an early codex, at minimum you'll need the 2017(?) Codex, chapter approved 2019, chapter approved 2020, vigilus defiant, faith and fury and a supplement of your choice"

Yes, that seems a lot less necessary than "buy this new codex". Rules bloat isn't referring to number of actual rules, but the sheer volume of publications there spread across.

Whilst I wouldn't want to encourage such a rapid turnaround in codexes under normal circumstances, I'm of the general opinion that this is the right move. I'd rather they do the right thing, rather than the popular thing. I wish they'd also dump the supplements tbh, but there you go.

1. The 2019 codex was a blight upon the game. Obscenely powerful. It needed toning down (which it will receive).

2. Eliminating multiple book requirements.

3. They are now providing digital copies with physical purchases, which will allow for easier ongoing fixes.

they need to proof the last point first
at the moment it does not look like there will be any easy fixes with the App

macluvin wrote:
Even the marines are complaining about only playing marine players and over saturation in models and rules... anyways slayer and not online where are you guys going after 40k? What tabletop game have you seen played that isn’t GW?

Hello! As a long time 40k player I have collapsed with GW fatigue. Already sarted my journet into other games. The one highest in my list is pendraken warband, excellent game with zero player base.

In the future i think i'll have to try bolt action, heard good stuff about it. Also star wars armada looks promising.

Don't forget the Marines Malevolent. Those guys and the Carcharadons are the only loyalists I give a about. Unless you consider the Ashen Claws loyalists (which I don't), those guys are pretty cool.

But your avatar is a Night Lords Chaos Marine - SURELY, if you're interested in Chaos, you would like the Dark Angels as well? No?


As for the new marine book? I said back in May of this year that they would not only release a new marine 'dex right out of the gate, but that it might even be the first codex of 9th. A surprisingly large amount of people kindly explained how I was mistaken because the 2.0 dex wasn't that old and there's "no way" GW would release a new one so soon.

I'm a marine player myself and I shelved them this edition and have focused on my various Chaos projects, as well as my Mechanicus. I think we've reached the point where even the most ardent Marine supporters are looking at the near weekly release schedule of Marines and just shaking their heads. "This week on Warhammer Preview - The super awesome Primaris Tower of His Invincible Light Drop Fortress complete with End Times Boltstorm array and Feth You quantum shielding! Stay tuned for next week's preview of the Dominus class Primaris Battle tank! If you thought the Executioner had a big gun, we've got a surprise for you!"

It's getting so hard to take but at the same time is just so over the top that I can't even be mad at it. I just shake my head and pat my Dark Eldar friend on the back and go back to figuring out the optimal combination of Plague Marines and Demon Engines. "It's ok buddy. They'll start adding the missing units back into your book any day now. Chin up!"

do you mutter after that statement " no they don't!`" ?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Don't forget the Marines Malevolent. Those guys and the Carcharadons are the only loyalists I give a about. Unless you consider the Ashen Claws loyalists (which I don't), those guys are pretty cool.

They're a good one too. They're a great representation of what happens when Marines become too pragmatic. Shame they don't have more fluff though.

do you mutter after that statement " no they don't!`" ?

In my head. Always in my head.

With the speed this book came out and the fact we just got the field manual, I’m willing to guess this is going to be the Marine book from 2019 with Crusade rules bolted on and a few minor tweaks to make units more ‘every chapter’.

If we are lucky a few of the exclusives will become former exclusives, like Lib Dreads and TDA sergeant like characters.

 Blackie wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I'm surprised people don't seem to be angry about the Space Marine codex being on its third iteration in three years while other armies are still basically using their updated Index rules codexes. I'm especially surprised Space Marine players aren't complaining more loudly about having to buy basically yearly updates to the codex.

I am, but mostly because I'm worried about having less options available for my chapter. Anyway, I'm not gonna give GW money for a book of SM stuff, I'll just make some photocopies of the pages I need.

As a Space Wolves player I'm quite ok with it. It gives GW the opportunity to divide their attention equally between the different main marine chapters instead of heavily favoring UM (let's be honest here, Codex: SM was basically Codex: UM with a minimum of flavor for all the other chapters)/BA/DA/SW/DW. Now Imperial/ Crimson Fists, White Scars, Salamanders, Raven Guard, Iron Hands and Black Templars can also get some well deserved attention and I think eventually we'll see a specialized unit for each of them. Sucks a bit if you're BA/DA/SW/DW but with the arrival of the new assault-focused Primaris, bikers and the Gladiator tank I think every chapter will be able to play in a way that befits their fluff (well ok, BA is a bit iffy without Jump Packs... hint hint GW?). And there's another good thing: we'll never have to wait on our chapter-specific codices and rules while vanilla SM is having fun with their new stuff.

But yeah, I agree that it sucks to have to buy a new SM codex again... I feel this could also have been done through a FAQ-like document. Then of course do release the full supplements for SW/DA/BA/DW.

Dudeface wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
@Dreadnought: BS. They had Chapter Approved to make adjustments and additions as necessary. They could have also included the new units in the supplements as well. There were plenty of ways to get the additions in, but instead they went for a 70$ combination of books, codex and supplement, that they proceeded to make obsolete in a year. It's ridiculous, and there's no way that it was "necessary" as you say.

And then instead of talking to you, I'd be responding to all the people complaining about rules bloat. And there's actually been more of that the past couple of years than complaints about too many codices. You have demonstrated my point that GW cannot win with the player base overall very well.

Also, whenever people complain about there being so many marine books, there's usually the implication that if GW wasn't releasing marine stuff, they'd be releasing more content for someone else instead. Which is a huge assumption. They expand projects that they think will make them money. If they hadn't been doing Marines, there's a good chance they would have just been doing some other game system instead. It doesn't mean Xenos would have gotten an update sooner.

Where exactly did this rules bloat come from in my scenario? The same number of rules can exist regardless of where you put them. My point stands, 3 books in 4 years remains totally unneccessary.

Timmy: "I'd like to start space marines"
Gw staff: "as they were an early codex, at minimum you'll need the 2017(?) Codex, chapter approved 2019, chapter approved 2020, vigilus defiant, faith and fury and a supplement of your choice"

Yes, that seems a lot less necessary than "buy this new codex". Rules bloat isn't referring to number of actual rules, but the sheer volume of publications there spread across.

Ooorr. . .

1: It's all in the app they just released. Woooooow.
Or
2: One codex, plus a downloadable document with the new units.
Or
3: One codex, plus the rules for new units actually come with the units.

Timmy is probably playing with power level, so no CA. Also "minimum" isn't going to include vigilus defiant, etc. But that should be beside the point anyways because of the app.