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GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 08:42:55


Post by: Just Tony


I know that at least a couple of modern designers have posted here, but my query is more for the old guard. You know, the ones that may have left the GW fold. I'd personally love to pick Tuomas Pirinen's brain over a recent rules question I came across from an older edition.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 08:54:27


Post by: beast_gts


A couple lurk here, but there's more on Twitter.

Looks like Tuomas is on Twitter - https://twitter.com/SonataNocturne


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 08:55:10


Post by: filbert


I'm sure some of them browse and view but if they do post here, then they are certainly wise enough not to advertise who they are and what they do.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 09:24:35


Post by: beast_gts


 filbert wrote:
I'm sure some of them browse and view but if they do post here, then they are certainly wise enough not to advertise who they are and what they do.

Yeah - it's always fun watching someone get into a rules argument with the person who wrote them.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 09:47:18


Post by: Slipspace


beast_gts wrote:
 filbert wrote:
I'm sure some of them browse and view but if they do post here, then they are certainly wise enough not to advertise who they are and what they do.

Yeah - it's always fun watching someone get into a rules argument with the person who wrote them.


The problem there is GW are often so bad at writing rules that what they mean is often different to (and sometimes the exact opposite of) what they actually write. Just look at the Heavy Cover FAQ and the rapid change to the Look Out,Sir! FAQ for examples.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 10:10:36


Post by: beast_gts


Slipspace wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
 filbert wrote:
I'm sure some of them browse and view but if they do post here, then they are certainly wise enough not to advertise who they are and what they do.

Yeah - it's always fun watching someone get into a rules argument with the person who wrote them.


The problem there is GW are often so bad at writing rules that what they mean is often different to (and sometimes the exact opposite of) what they actually write. Just look at the Heavy Cover FAQ and the rapid change to the Look Out,Sir! FAQ for examples.


And the thing we've noticed with Specialist Games is that the version printed isn't always the latest version of the rules being used in-house - the AT writers released an 'unofficial' FAQ for the game just after launch for the stuff that should have been in the book, for example.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 10:18:35


Post by: BrianDavion


 filbert wrote:
I'm sure some of them browse and view but if they do post here, then they are certainly wise enough not to advertise who they are and what they do.


given the hate and bile some people spread here could you imagine what would happen if someone came up and casually said "so when I was writing the latest space marines codex..."


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 11:00:48


Post by: insaniak


Paul Sawyer did sign up under his own name some years back. I don't think he lasted a week, thanks to people being unable to behave themselves.

There was a period where GW staff had supposedly been specifically told to stay off forums. No idea if that was actually true, or still the case, if so.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 13:09:21


Post by: pgmason


Tuomas is on facebook, and sometimes posts in the Morheim group there.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 13:12:52


Post by: Hanskrampf


Current employers are not allowed a board/social media presence I think.
Bottle posted here regularly before he made it into GW and all his posts were deleted.

Former game designers can often be found in Facebook groups, Andy Chambers is in the BFG group for example.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 13:37:15


Post by: Just Tony


Damn it, so now I have to join Twitter and Facebook??!?!


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 13:49:09


Post by: Kanluwen


 Hanskrampf wrote:
Current employers are not allowed a board/social media presence I think.
Bottle posted here regularly before he made it into GW and all his posts were deleted.

Former game designers can often be found in Facebook groups, Andy Chambers is in the BFG group for example.

Bottle's posts are still up.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 14:00:01


Post by: Hanskrampf


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Hanskrampf wrote:
Current employers are not allowed a board/social media presence I think.
Bottle posted here regularly before he made it into GW and all his posts were deleted.

Former game designers can often be found in Facebook groups, Andy Chambers is in the BFG group for example.

Bottle's posts are still up.

Hm, could've sworn all his stuff just vanished. The point that he no longer (is allowed to?) posts here remains, though.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 14:02:16


Post by: Kanluwen


Honestly, I'm sure he could post here if he wanted to...but his painting style and armies are so recognizable that anonymity is basically nonexistent for him now here.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 14:20:56


Post by: techsoldaten


Yeah, GW instituted a no social media policy a while back. It applies to all full time employees and selectively to freelancers, who are mostly involved in design projects. I think they sign NDAs on a per-project basis.

You will find some freelancers on blog sites. If you look through their historical posts, you can see how they influenced some of the current designs. Here's an example:

https://leskouzes.blogspot.com/2016/02/obliterators-emperors-children.html

UK Labor law exempts long time GW staff from this policy. A few of them are still active on Dakka:

- Martel732, GW's Global VP for Community Engagement

- Slayer-Fan123, who's on the design team, mostly focused on rules

- BaconCatBug, Senior Playtester

- Peregrine, Group Finance Director for Games Workshop Group PLC


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 14:22:58


Post by: Kanluwen


Don't say that, people will think you're serious!


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 14:41:03


Post by: techsoldaten


 Kanluwen wrote:
Don't say that, people will think you're serious!

I am being serious. Blogs are a good way to connect with freelance design artists and get some ideas about what's coming.

Look at the pictures of the Obliterators. The scale and proportions, the feet, the heavy armor panels, even the helmets used. That's very close to the design of the new Obliterators.

The picture is from 2016. I have a list of about 20 other blogs where you can see clear influences on modern kits.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 14:41:44


Post by: Kanluwen


Right, right--I meant the lower half of your post.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 14:42:55


Post by: techsoldaten


 Kanluwen wrote:
Right, right--I meant the lower half of your post.

Stop talking about my lower half.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 16:44:23


Post by: Hollow


They would have to be mad. Far too many toxic basement dwellers on this forum to be able to have an adult discussion regarding... well... anything. Every thread descends into negative nonsense. Would be a complete waste of time.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 18:18:19


Post by: Grimtuff


 Hollow wrote:
They would have to be mad. Far too many toxic basement dwellers on this forum to be able to have an adult discussion regarding... well... anything. Every thread descends into negative nonsense. Would be a complete waste of time.


Don't worry, I'm sure they'll have plenty of white knights to protect them. For just but a glance of sweet lady GW to come your way, amirite?


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 18:59:27


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Grimtuff wrote:
 Hollow wrote:
They would have to be mad. Far too many toxic basement dwellers on this forum to be able to have an adult discussion regarding... well... anything. Every thread descends into negative nonsense. Would be a complete waste of time.


Don't worry, I'm sure they'll have plenty of white knights to protect them. For just but a glance of sweet lady GW to come your way, amirite?


I do a job which, on occasion, makes me unpopular with the consumer. Hence I very rarely explain where exactly I work, because I can do without peeps knowing it, and trying to find me on social media.

Why? Because it can become a massive ball ache. Despite this career having a high potential for head hunting, and a higher salary, I avoid stuff like LinkedIn for the same reasons.

In fact, we’re asked not to actively identify ourselves. Which is an odd feeling. as I sometimes encounter situations I can apply my knowledge and expertise to, but should really keep schtum.

I get I’m probably sounding a bit Austin Powers, but my job isn’t anywhere near that sexy. I mean, my actual real life friends know what I do. And I’ve helped a fair few with various issues. Even applied my knowledge to the degree two of them got their mortgage paid off.

But I can sympathise with people who design for GW in any capacity not mentioning it, because there are sadly those out there who cannot draw the line. Criticism is one thing, but on a largely anonymised forum, people go way, way too far.

Of course, anyone who dares to have any variance of opinion from your own must, de facto, be a “White Knight”, as you scream into the uncaring void. Yeah? (Do you see what I did there?)


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 19:18:08


Post by: insaniak


 Kanluwen wrote:
Don't say that, people will think you're serious!

Also, at least one of those people hasn't been active on these forums for some time now...




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimtuff wrote:
 Hollow wrote:
They would have to be mad. Far too many toxic basement dwellers on this forum to be able to have an adult discussion regarding... well... anything. Every thread descends into negative nonsense. Would be a complete waste of time.


Don't worry, I'm sure they'll have plenty of white knights to protect them. For just but a glance of sweet lady GW to come your way, amirite?


Let's keep our civil, folks.

And no, the existence of people with a more favorable opinion wouldn't actually make going on forums without the mask of anonymity any less unpleasant for any of the GW design team, past or present.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 19:43:19


Post by: nels1031


 insaniak wrote:
Also, at least one of those people hasn't been active on these forums for some time now...


And its glorious.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 20:07:40


Post by: Tycho


Paul Sawyer did sign up under his own name some years back. I don't think he lasted a week, thanks to people being unable to behave themselves.


Who would dare blaspheme the Fat Bloke!?

Seriously though, that's a shame. His era of WD is considered by many to be the golden era.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 20:18:31


Post by: Overread


Tycho wrote:
Paul Sawyer did sign up under his own name some years back. I don't think he lasted a week, thanks to people being unable to behave themselves.


Who would dare blaspheme the Fat Bloke!?


It's less that some would blaspheme but that many would get critical in a very negative way. Even when people ask for critique there's many who cannot give constructive positive feedback and instead err closer toward insults and negativity. For company employees they aren't even asking for it from the individual. The final say on a model might not even be totally their choice; not to mention they aren't looking for the critique from one person but rather their boss(es) and the market in general.

IT can be very tiring on a person to engage with a community which has a very powerful negative way of interacting as can often happen online.

Even when there's positive reactions and interaction it can sometimes be tiring for people. Sometimes nutty fans can be the worst because they are blinkered in their viewpoint. Either insulting or fawning over a person. Many might provide good insight out of a general desire to want to interact; no malice or ulterior motives and even that can be a tiresome thing. Plus for some creatives (Esp those working for big companies) there's always the risk of someone suggesting an idea that later (either directly or through its own approach) gets used in some form and then insults of plagiarism rear their ugly heads. It's a reason some authors limit their fan contact and online interactions and will often outright avoid some places (like fan fiction websites) because whilst they might love the creativity and ideas that their work has sparked; they don't want to even entertain the risk of a plagiarism claim.




In the end white or dark knights - many people often don't want to associate in their "famed" position and would rather engage with the hobby just as another hobby person.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 20:22:25


Post by: insaniak


Tycho wrote:

Who would dare blaspheme the Fat Bloke!?.

Penguindude was the main culprit, IIRC.

The sad thing is that it wasn't even anything specific about Sawyer. People just saw 'Someone from GW!' and chose to start dumping all their dissatisfaction on him. It's a damn shame, because it was potentially an opportunity to actually have an earpiece within the company, but people threw it away in because the lure of a misplaced rant was just too strong.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 20:51:41


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Tycho wrote:
Paul Sawyer did sign up under his own name some years back. I don't think he lasted a week, thanks to people being unable to behave themselves.


Who would dare blaspheme the Fat Bloke!?

Seriously though, that's a shame. His era of WD is considered by many to be the golden era.


Apologies for the tangent, but can anyone remember if he went from Journal to White Dwarf, or White Dwarf to Journal?

Because all my brain is doing is recalling a specific WD’s tag line being “it’s a stoater’*, and the corresponding Journal’s tag line being “It’s a Bloater!”**


*stoater being a Scots (possibly northern England?) slang word for something large. E.G. the Titanic would be described as a “stoater” of a ship.

**bloater being a general (I think) British slang word for a fat person, and Mr Sawyer was affectionately known as ‘Fat Bloke’


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 21:04:12


Post by: Blastaar


 techsoldaten wrote:
Yeah, GW instituted a no social media policy a while back. It applies to all full time employees and selectively to freelancers, who are mostly involved in design projects. I think they sign NDAs on a per-project basis.

You will find some freelancers on blog sites. If you look through their historical posts, you can see how they influenced some of the current designs. Here's an example:

https://leskouzes.blogspot.com/2016/02/obliterators-emperors-children.html

UK Labor law exempts long time GW staff from this policy. A few of them are still active on Dakka:

- Martel732, GW's Global VP for Community Engagement

- Slayer-Fan123, who's on the design team, mostly focused on rules

- BaconCatBug, Senior Playtester

- Peregrine, Group Finance Director for Games Workshop Group PLC


I wish they'd hire BCB...............


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 21:28:10


Post by: Vermis


 Just Tony wrote:
I'd personally love to pick Tuomas Pirinen's brain over a recent rules question I came across from an older edition.


I think they pick a different part of their anatomy when they come up with 40K rules.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 21:32:26


Post by: Irkjoe


I'm surprised Dakka can be considered worse than twitter or facebook.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 21:36:55


Post by: insaniak


 Vermis wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
I'd personally love to pick Tuomas Pirinen's brain over a recent rules question I came across from an older edition.


I think they pick a different part of their anatomy when they come up with 40K rules.

"Why GW staff don't post here, exhibit A"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Irkjoe wrote:
I'm surprised Dakka can be considered worse than twitter or facebook.

It's not. There's a lingering perception that forums are toxic and social media is somehow better... But there are large segments of the gaming community on Twitter and Facebook that are just awful.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 22:06:35


Post by: Overread


 insaniak wrote:

 Irkjoe wrote:
I'm surprised Dakka can be considered worse than twitter or facebook.

It's not. There's a lingering perception that forums are toxic and social media is somehow better... But there are large segments of the gaming community on Twitter and Facebook that are just awful.


I figure one difference is that FB/Twitter the negativity can sometimes be more impersonal because of the fact that those groups and the way they work are less personal - whilst on a forum you tend to get to know people so the negativity feels worse because its a group of known people not just a vast group of faces.

That said FB/Social media negativity can be like a wildfire where hundreds of posts can turn toxic within seconds and bombard at a volume that puts forums, even at their height of popularity, to shame. It can turn toxic in a flash; of course it can also turn positive in a flash too; its a very fast moving beast and intimidating to many.

Forums can be just as up and down, but often slower and the means of membership means that its often far less of a volume and often only a handful of very active posters driving a conversation a certain way.




The other issue that all internet sites suffer from is that it costs nothing to join in. Both in terms of time and effort and in terms of money. So you can move on from GW and 40K and even wargames entirely; but you can still drop in on the forum. Indeed you might simply out of regular habit of checking your websites in the morning/evening/whenever. So you can retain people who have moved on and some of them can build quite a toxic relationship with aspects of the community/company/game/all of it. You don't tend to get this in a club or convention because it costs money to attend (even if its jsut fuel to get there); it takes more time; it takes effort and dedication to get up; go in and turn up. So a lot of those who move on just don't bother going so you don't get them forming part of the community that's active. That doesn't mean negativity doesn't happen, but its a different style.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 22:09:43


Post by: Just Tony


 Vermis wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
I'd personally love to pick Tuomas Pirinen's brain over a recent rules question I came across from an older edition.


I think they pick a different part of their anatomy when they come up with 40K rules.


6th ed. WFB question, actually.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 22:17:27


Post by: Blastaar


It's unfortunate that the designers aren't reachable. The obvious disconnect between GW's rules and product-decision process, and the people who purchase their products and play with their rules is one of the reasons so many of us are dissatisfied with the GW experience.

Of course there would be negativity, even the toxic kind, but so what? Is it really better that they hide away, protecting their feelings, instead of engaging with the players, to better understand their experience with GW? Much of the negativity is a direct result of GW's rules, sculpts, and policies.

At the very least, the rules team should be getting on Twitch every week or two to (forthrightly) answer peoples' questions and explain their thought process.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 insaniak wrote:
 Vermis wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
I'd personally love to pick Tuomas Pirinen's brain over a recent rules question I came across from an older edition.


I think they pick a different part of their anatomy when they come up with 40K rules.

"Why GW staff don't post here, exhibit A"



That's a pretty mild remark he made. If you make a product, or provide a service, the public is going to have opinions. If you can't defend your work in public, perhaps you need to find a new line of work you are better suited for- and happier with.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 22:27:55


Post by: Overread


Blastaar wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 insaniak wrote:
 Vermis wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
I'd personally love to pick Tuomas Pirinen's brain over a recent rules question I came across from an older edition.


I think they pick a different part of their anatomy when they come up with 40K rules.

"Why GW staff don't post here, exhibit A"



That's a pretty mild remark he made. If you make a product, or provide a service, the public is going to have opinions. If you can't defend your work in public, perhaps you need to find a new line of work you are better suited for- and happier with.



So if you produced a product and chose to use your free time to come join a group of people who engage with part of the product that you helped produce - that you'd be ok with that kink of tone being directed at you? Perhaps from multiple people who might use even more scornful language?


I don't know about you, but it would fast sap any enthusiasm I'd have to engage with that community. In fact I'd wager most people would simply leave and go elsewhere. Even if you're looking for feedback and critique that level of discourse isn't constructive nor productive; again it serve no purpose other than to insult. Again I'd not expect anyone to hang around in such an atmosphere.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 22:30:18


Post by: SlaveToDorkness


Lol, yes, because we all want to go home after work and argue with anonymous basement-dwellers over the quality of our day job. Seriously, it would be pretty dumb to subject yourself to the internet like that.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 22:55:05


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Blastaar wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Yeah, GW instituted a no social media policy a while back. It applies to all full time employees and selectively to freelancers, who are mostly involved in design projects. I think they sign NDAs on a per-project basis.

You will find some freelancers on blog sites. If you look through their historical posts, you can see how they influenced some of the current designs. Here's an example:

https://leskouzes.blogspot.com/2016/02/obliterators-emperors-children.html

UK Labor law exempts long time GW staff from this policy. A few of them are still active on Dakka:

- Martel732, GW's Global VP for Community Engagement

- Slayer-Fan123, who's on the design team, mostly focused on rules

- BaconCatBug, Senior Playtester

- Peregrine, Group Finance Director for Games Workshop Group PLC


I wish they'd hire BCB...............

People would actually be thankful if BCB were on the rules writing and proof reading team.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/24 23:01:29


Post by: insaniak


Blastaar wrote:
Of course there would be negativity, even the toxic kind, but so what? Is it really better that they hide away, protecting their feelings, instead of engaging with the players, to better understand their experience with GW?

Yes. Absolutely, it's better to not put themselves through that.

At best, being subjected to that sort of negativity on a constant basis is exhausting, demoralising, and bad for creativity and productivity. At worst, it's incredibly damaging to someone's mental health.

It's also pointless. When 90% of the 'feedback' that you're receiving is of the 'You suck and should die in a fire' kind, there is little value in wading through it trying to find the occasional gem of actual, practical critique. It's not going to give them an understanding of their customers' experience... it's just going to show them that a vocal section of the online community has no filter. Until the majority of people can learn to behave as if the guys in the studio are actual human beings, it's just not worth the bother of trying to sort through that.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 00:08:10


Post by: Cruentus


Blastaar wrote:
It's unfortunate that the designers aren't reachable. The obvious disconnect between GW's rules and product-decision process, and the people who purchase their products and play with their rules is one of the reasons so many of us are dissatisfied with the GW experience.


I don't think that disconnect has anything to do with the designers. The designers know how people play, they read forums, FB, tournaments, etc. Its just that the designers create the games the way they play them - casual and fairly open-ended, a reason to get together with mates and push models around and have fun. And they have been very clear about that design ethos from comments in the past on GW's very own forums, to White Dwarf articles, to interviews on various podcasts, etc. Its just that the community (and when I say "community", I'm only speaking about those who post on Dakka) don't care, or hear it and dismiss it. Just look at the way GW did Batreps in the old WDs, a grab bag of various units, playing several times to get a "close" result, and not playing it in any kind of "serious, competitive" sense.

GW has always said that they provide the structure, rules, and miniatures for players to create their own games, play it their own way, and push models around the table with their friends. If the community decides not to do that, but instead to rail against how GW's rules aren't balanced, or their balanced enough, or produced too slow, or produced too fast, or have too much bloat, or too few options, or should have more FAQs, or less FAQs, etc., then that really falls squarely on the players. Not GW or the designers.

Players: GW! Tell us how to play.
GW: Here is how you play.
Players: No! That's not how you play. Tell us how to play!

I'm fortunate enough to play/have played with 99.7% of folks in basement/home/garage gaming, where we're all like minded, take a "let's have fun with the game, let's put on a spectacle, and let's not abuse the system just cause we can" type of approach, which I think is also how 95% of 40k gamers actually do it, but they all don't post on Dakka.

Lately, the "community" has wanted a "balanced, tournament" ruleset from 40k. You got 9th edition, with its pseudo technical rules writing. Well, be careful what you wish for.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 01:20:15


Post by: Phobos


Blastaar wrote:
It's unfortunate that the designers aren't reachable. The obvious disconnect between GW's rules and product-decision process, and the people who purchase their products and play with their rules is one of the reasons so many of us are dissatisfied with the GW experience.


The problem is that the disconnect in GW is internal. See this quote from James M Hewitt:

James: Whatever the case.. We’d gone through and put these rules in which we thought were evocative and interesting. They went up to review…

Lupe: Oh dear, yeah?

James: And they came back. And I think the problem was kind of a… the telephone game. Basically, to give an example of the problem, a manager on high gets offered a banana and says “I don’t fancy eating that banana”. The next manager, one rung down from them, who wants to be seen to be doing a good job says “oh, my boss does not like eating bananas, so I’ll stop sending bananas his way.” It might have been because that particular banana wasn’t what he wanted, or he wasn’t in the mood for a banana, but it results in all bananas being embargoed. And it carries on. “Top boss doesn’t like fruit!” says the next manager down, “Well, let’s not produce anything with fruit.” Then eventually it’s “So, the manager at the top doesn’t like eating food, never send food his way.”

It was a tense time, lots of pressure, and everyone was trying to please the person above them a little bit too much. From what I can tell it’s not quite as much of an issue these days. But what it meant was that if Top Manager at the top said “That rule is really colourful, and makes people play the game in a different way that’s not just rolling dice, that’s really cool”, that then trickles down to the rules team being told to add more silly rules, and it ends up with someone in the team going through all the compendiums replacing some rules that were more like “+1 to hit” with “+1 to hit… if it’s raining outside!”.


I think that the problem is that the people at the top don't actually engage in this hobby or really understand it or its playerbase. They may as well be working for a company making oven mitts. I was talking to my local GW guy and he said they were surprised at how fast Kill Team sold out. I mean, how on earth were they surprised? Or the Sisters box. They only ran a year long campaign and promoted the hell out of something that people were demanding for nearly 2 decades. Or the most recent with Indominus. Remember when they said they made boatloads of them and everyone was going to get a copy and then the webstore sold out worldwide in what, a whole 15 minutes? These examples show a HUGE level of disconnect between the people at the top and the customer base.




GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 01:31:08


Post by: Hollow


If this thread isn't a perfect example of why designers would stay away.... lol. A completely warped, over-inflated sense of entitlement. The dross of dakka account for an infinitesimally small percentage of GW's customer base. They would be mad to listen to anyone on here.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 01:59:18


Post by: Laughing Man


Would you ever know if we did?


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 03:35:16


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Just Tony wrote:
GW designers, do they post here?
If you were them, would you?


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 04:34:31


Post by: Just Tony


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
GW designers, do they post here?
If you were them, would you?


Me, personally? Yes. I have this condition where I fear no living being, and am quite cocky enough to give them the 10 digit grid coordinate to my front door if they became stupid threatening. If I craft something I interact with the fanbase. Period. When I was in the local music scene I was on local message boards to answer questions or simply listen to feed back. Even being told one of my songs sounded like repetitious drivel didn't stop me from returning.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 04:48:45


Post by: techsoldaten


 Hollow wrote:
If this thread isn't a perfect example of why designers would stay away.... lol. A completely warped, over-inflated sense of entitlement. The dross of dakka account for an infinitesimally small percentage of GW's customer base. They would be mad to listen to anyone on here.

Dakka gets more traffic than any other dedicated 40k site. Posts from here are quoted constantly on Facebook, Reddit and other sites.

That makes us influencers. One would think they'd be trying to accommodate us in some way.

I got about half of what I've been asking for with Grey Knights with Tides, and the 2W on CSM is something I've been bitching about for years. Feels like someone is listening, either directly or through messages that are reposted elsewhere.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 06:18:56


Post by: insaniak


Oh, it's quite likely that someone's reading the forums, certainly. It's just not surprising that they're not making their presence known.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 06:36:30


Post by: Duskweaver


 Just Tony wrote:
Yes. I have this condition where I fear no living being, and am quite cocky enough to give them the 10 digit grid coordinate to my front door if they became stupid threatening.

That's very noble, but you might want to ask Thomas Parrott how that's likely to go.

(Spoiler: You'd get fired.)


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 06:38:45


Post by: tneva82


Blastaar wrote:
It's unfortunate that the designers aren't reachable. The obvious disconnect between GW's rules and product-decision process, and the people who purchase their products and play with their rules is one of the reasons so many of us are dissatisfied with the GW experience.

Of course there would be negativity, even the toxic kind, but so what? Is it really better that they hide away, protecting their feelings, instead of engaging with the players, to better understand their experience with GW? Much of the negativity is a direct result of GW's rules, sculpts, and policies.

At the very least, the rules team should be getting on Twitch every week or two to (forthrightly) answer peoples' questions and explain their thought process.


What would them here accomplish though? They wouldn't drop their marketing strategy just because people here could talk to them. You think they would suddenly balance game? It's not unbalanced because GW doesn't know it's unbalanced. Or that GW couldnt' get it balanced if they wanted it. It's unbalanced because it's marketing strategy from GW to have shifting imbalance to drive sales from what has sold so much there's no room for large gains anymore to units that have room.

GW guys couldn't really offer any truthful comments or reasons. It would be just marketing speech same as you get on warhammer community. They say stompa is " incredibly difficult to put down" in apocalypse when it's one shotted easily in 2k game. But you think GW would actually say how bad it is in marketing speech? They wouldn't put up any more honest text in forum. They wouldn't even be allowed. It would be just more half-truths and omissions and marketing speech.

Wouldn't give players anything useful, would just be headache for them. Nothing gained, plenty to lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Phobos wrote:
I think that the problem is that the people at the top don't actually engage in this hobby or really understand it or its playerbase. They may as well be working for a company making oven mitts. I was talking to my local GW guy and he said they were surprised at how fast Kill Team sold out. I mean, how on earth were they surprised? Or the Sisters box. They only ran a year long campaign and promoted the hell out of something that people were demanding for nearly 2 decades. Or the most recent with Indominus. Remember when they said they made boatloads of them and everyone was going to get a copy and then the webstore sold out worldwide in what, a whole 15 minutes? These examples show a HUGE level of disconnect between the people at the top and the customer base.




Or that they don't want to offer discount boxes too much least it hinders sales of full priced kits.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 12:43:47


Post by: Kanluwen


 Duskweaver wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
Yes. I have this condition where I fear no living being, and am quite cocky enough to give them the 10 digit grid coordinate to my front door if they became stupid threatening.

That's very noble, but you might want to ask Thomas Parrott how that's likely to go.

(Spoiler: You'd get fired.)

Really? You want to make that joke?

Dude told off twits harassing someone in the 40k community and got fired for it thanks to a coordinated reporting campaign by those twits.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 17:29:35


Post by: Irkjoe


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Duskweaver wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
Yes. I have this condition where I fear no living being, and am quite cocky enough to give them the 10 digit grid coordinate to my front door if they became stupid threatening.

That's very noble, but you might want to ask Thomas Parrott how that's likely to go.

(Spoiler: You'd get fired.)

Really? You want to make that joke?

Dude told off twits harassing someone in the 40k community and got fired for it thanks to a coordinated reporting campaign by those twits.


Didn't he threaten them with death or something to that effect? A cursory glance at his posts tells me everything I need to know about this guy. Yeah, dakka is infinitely better than twitter.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 18:08:45


Post by: MaxT


tneva82 wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
It's unfortunate that the designers aren't reachable. The obvious disconnect between GW's rules and product-decision process, and the people who purchase their products and play with their rules is one of the reasons so many of us are dissatisfied with the GW experience.

Of course there would be negativity, even the toxic kind, but so what? Is it really better that they hide away, protecting their feelings, instead of engaging with the players, to better understand their experience with GW? Much of the negativity is a direct result of GW's rules, sculpts, and policies.

At the very least, the rules team should be getting on Twitch every week or two to (forthrightly) answer peoples' questions and explain their thought process.


What would them here accomplish though? They wouldn't drop their marketing strategy just because people here could talk to them. You think they would suddenly balance game? It's not unbalanced because GW doesn't know it's unbalanced. Or that GW couldnt' get it balanced if they wanted it. It's unbalanced because it's marketing strategy from GW to have shifting imbalance to drive sales from what has sold so much there's no room for large gains anymore to units that have room.

GW guys couldn't really offer any truthful comments or reasons. It would be just marketing speech same as you get on warhammer community. They say stompa is " incredibly difficult to put down" in apocalypse when it's one shotted easily in 2k game. But you think GW would actually say how bad it is in marketing speech? They wouldn't put up any more honest text in forum. They wouldn't even be allowed. It would be just more half-truths and omissions and marketing speech.

Wouldn't give players anything useful, would just be headache for them. Nothing gained, plenty to lose.


There's also the investment/payoff angle. Ultimately games designers are investment costs. Those investments (i.e. producing rules and such) have a payoff. There's nothing to prevent GW from tripling the budget of the 40k games dev team, get in extra and more experienced peeps, maybe a high end data analyst. That may in time produce a better "balanced" game. But would it lead to more sales? Would it generate enough extra sales to make the multi year investment worth it? What's the risk of if not working, or even worse reduce sales?

And going back to the original point - the individual games designer doesn't make these kind of calls. They get a new model dumped on their desk on a Monday and told "we need the rules and points for this by Friday". They do what they do, and they do their best, but what a forum like this would be asking for they wouldn't be able to answer anyway...



GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 18:15:13


Post by: Kanluwen


 Irkjoe wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Duskweaver wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
Yes. I have this condition where I fear no living being, and am quite cocky enough to give them the 10 digit grid coordinate to my front door if they became stupid threatening.

That's very noble, but you might want to ask Thomas Parrott how that's likely to go.

(Spoiler: You'd get fired.)

Really? You want to make that joke?

Dude told off twits harassing someone in the 40k community and got fired for it thanks to a coordinated reporting campaign by those twits.


Didn't he threaten them with death or something to that effect? A cursory glance at his posts tells me everything I need to know about this guy. Yeah, dakka is infinitely better than twitter.

Ehhh...no. He didn't "threaten them with death". He made a comment about an ongoing issue that GW themselves posted about, and likened it to 'mold in a pool' in that you have to stop a party before cleaning it up and referred to someone as 'fashy as <expletive>".

He's been pretty upfront about what he said. And it's pretty clear that it tied in to something that has been heading towards a reckoning for a long time in the GW community.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 18:17:27


Post by: Tycho


Of course there would be negativity, even the toxic kind, but so what? Is it really better that they hide away, protecting their feelings, instead of engaging with the players, to better understand their experience with GW? Much of the negativity is a direct result of GW's rules, sculpts, and policies.


Honestly, yeah. For them it probably IS better to hide away, and I can't blame them one bit. Less mental stress. Since the game is still making money hand over fist, not engaging with the community on a forum, etc isn't really hurting them. They're making money and don't have to deal with the near constant personal attacks that will no doubt come their way no matter what they do. Reasoned discussion is a hard thing to find these days. There's too much "I have an opinion so I obviously need to be heard" for that to happen. Look no further than any thread discussion miniature quality if you need proof. "I dislike it, therefor it's trash" is like 90% of the posts because the posters can't tell the difference between a genuinely poorly done model and something that's actually well done but simply doesn't appeal to them from a style standpoint ...

I don't think that disconnect has anything to do with the designers. The designers know how people play, they read forums, FB, tournaments, etc. Its just that the designers create the games the way they play them - casual and fairly open-ended, a reason to get together with mates and push models around and have fun. And they have been very clear about that design ethos from comments in the past on GW's very own forums, to White Dwarf articles, to interviews on various podcasts, etc. Its just that the community (and when I say "community", I'm only speaking about those who post on Dakka) don't care, or hear it and dismiss it. Just look at the way GW did Batreps in the old WDs, a grab bag of various units, playing several times to get a "close" result, and not playing it in any kind of "serious, competitive" sense.


Honestly, I think there is a genuine disconnect. The amount of times a GW designer has said "We were genuinely surprised to see that's how people played that" is a sign that the disconnect does actually come directly from the design team and that they may be too insulated. Was it Adepticon at the start of 8th where Cavatore (or Cruddace? I don't remember who ...) saw how Storm Ravens and Smash Captains were used and basically had a tiny melt down. FAQ'd instantly while subtly shaming people for using the models that way in the first place? They have been in isolation too long IMO. To their credit, I think this is absolutely getting WAY better as we see the community being involved in things more than at any other time in recent memory, but yeah there has been a legitimate disconnect and it starts with the design team.

To be fair, this is also the same poor team who have to answer things like "When a model is killed, does it die" and "Can I still win if I;ve conceded?" so I really can't blame them for isolating a bit.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 18:41:24


Post by: Voss


 techsoldaten wrote:
 Hollow wrote:
If this thread isn't a perfect example of why designers would stay away.... lol. A completely warped, over-inflated sense of entitlement. The dross of dakka account for an infinitesimally small percentage of GW's customer base. They would be mad to listen to anyone on here.

Dakka gets more traffic than any other dedicated 40k site. Posts from here are quoted constantly on Facebook, Reddit and other sites.

That makes us influencers. One would think they'd be trying to accommodate us in some way.


It does not. It makes Dakka a convenient warehouse for opinions, rather than going to multiple sites.
That's it. It isn't even a good one-stop, because truly casual players aren't particularly well-represented on any online presence, they're simply not that engaged.

Here, most folks posting are a small number really caught up in some aspect of the games or settings, and many strongly committed to be 'right' about their personal bugbears. That doesn't make anyone's stance particularly useful or valid, just strongly held.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 19:05:37


Post by: Blastaar


tneva82 wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
It's unfortunate that the designers aren't reachable. The obvious disconnect between GW's rules and product-decision process, and the people who purchase their products and play with their rules is one of the reasons so many of us are dissatisfied with the GW experience.

Of course there would be negativity, even the toxic kind, but so what? Is it really better that they hide away, protecting their feelings, instead of engaging with the players, to better understand their experience with GW? Much of the negativity is a direct result of GW's rules, sculpts, and policies.

At the very least, the rules team should be getting on Twitch every week or two to (forthrightly) answer peoples' questions and explain their thought process.


What would them here accomplish though? They wouldn't drop their marketing strategy just because people here could talk to them. You think they would suddenly balance game? It's not unbalanced because GW doesn't know it's unbalanced. Or that GW couldnt' get it balanced if they wanted it. It's unbalanced because it's marketing strategy from GW to have shifting imbalance to drive sales from what has sold so much there's no room for large gains anymore to units that have room.


You're projecting. I said that the rules folks have an obligation to communicate with the players. Yes, to gain feedback, as well as explain their intentions with the rules.

As much as some Dakka posters believe it to be true, as much as some want it to be true, GW does not intentionally unbalance the game to sell models. This is disproven every time GW releases a new kit that sucks in the game. GW's design approach is "this is something to do for a laugh while drinking alcohol." There are repeated instances of the rules team being surprised by the things players do with their rules, because the rules team believes that people just won't do certain things, even if the rules allow it. It's a massive blindspot they have.

What I find puzzling is that, on the one hand, GW has LOTR SBG, which is pretty well-done. On the other, 40k and AOS.

GW's marketing strategy is their ecosystem of games, minis, and paints, and a basic social media presence where everything is AMAZING!!! and THE BEST EVARRRR!!!!! Aren't you EXICTED!!!!! New stuff to BUY!!! RAAAAAAWRRRRR!!!!!!!

GW guys couldn't really offer any truthful comments or reasons. It would be just marketing speech same as you get on warhammer community. They say stompa is " incredibly difficult to put down" in apocalypse when it's one shotted easily in 2k game. But you think GW would actually say how bad it is in marketing speech? They wouldn't put up any more honest text in forum. They wouldn't even be allowed. It would be just more half-truths and omissions and marketing speech.

Wouldn't give players anything useful, would just be headache for them. Nothing gained, plenty to lose.


That is another serious problem. GW's policy of lying to their customers, or concealing information. It creates mistrust between players and GW. They absolutely damn well should be forthright with us.

And note that I suggested they utilize Twitch for periodic discussions, and Q&As.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 19:08:13


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Irkjoe wrote:
I'm surprised Dakka can be considered worse than twitter or facebook.


It’s not worse in terms of content, but on FB I can fully block people who get on my pip, and remove their negativity from my online life.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 19:18:20


Post by: auticus


And here we are a day removed from the latest Conquest designer Q&A. Where the company holds regular Q&A sessions on their discord for the fans and players to directly message and communicate with the lore writers, the artists, and the rules devs.

And have been doing that the past year. Without much of any hostility.

You can read all of the q&a sessions, to include the one yesterday, on the underspire (in my sig) as an example.

Yeah for my $$$, goes a billion miles in the right direction when you can ask questions and get answers from the source.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 19:39:43


Post by: Irkjoe


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Irkjoe wrote:
I'm surprised Dakka can be considered worse than twitter or facebook.


It’s not worse in terms of content, but on FB I can fully block people who get on my pip, and remove their negativity from my online life.


Fair enough, why stress yourself. That said opposing opinions and mean comments don't bother me that much, others seem to wildly overreact.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 20:05:57


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Depends on the frequency, and insistence of the complainant.

As touched on earlier, my job can be stressful. Mostly it’s easily handled, as I get some outcomes will be upsetting.

Yet. What sets off my anxiety, and from there my depression, are overly insistent complainants. Those that will phone regularly, demanding updates, despite me giving clear, immutable timescales. If I’ve given the other party two weeks to respond, I won’t be chasing them until that period is up.

Those are the sorts where I wish I could FB Ban. And if we’re honest, there’s a few here on Dakka that don’t seem to be willing to let stuff go.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 20:54:36


Post by: Vermis


 insaniak wrote:
 Vermis wrote:
I think they pick a different part of their anatomy when they come up with 40K rules.

"Why GW staff don't post here, exhibit A"


"Doing my bit to keep the average IQ of Dakka just a little bit higher. You're welcome."

"Confucius says, If you don't want to be laughed at for having gak smeared over your face, don't smear gak over your face."

"It's like having people lay the entire blame at your feet, for the fact they were denied the chance to congratulate the winners of the Darwin Award."

"The drones may regain some semblance of humanity once disconnected from the collective, but until then, set phasers to randomised frequencies."

"Let me make amends by providing a handy catch-all answer to every GW rules design question for the last thirty years: 'the accounts department wanted to keep selling a ton of models to the same people so I changed things just enough to nerf one unit/army/meta and/or buff another unit/army/meta so that you would have to buy the books to keep up with the rules and buy the best units/armies after a certain period of mathammering and netlisting until a few years later when the next unit/army/edition is released and we do it all over again'."

" "

... are just some of the possible responses that went through my head.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 20:55:34


Post by: Voss


Blastaar wrote:I said that the rules folks have an obligation to communicate with the players. Yes, to gain feedback, as well as explain their intentions with the rules.


I'm not sure what makes communication with customers an 'obligation.'

I'm not even clear how it would benefit them. They get feedback regardless, whether they want it or not, and whether its useful or not. In my experience, constructive criticism that's actually actionable doesn't come from anonymous online sources. Even in person, its vanishingly rare. If it isn't constructive and actionable, its a complete waste of time at best. So what would be the point?

'Explaining intent' is worse than useless. It gives people license and encouragement to quibble. Not discuss or debate, but bog down in what are essentially trivia fights that aren't worth wasting time on.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 21:15:04


Post by: Vermis


Overread wrote:So if you produced a product and chose to use your free time to come join a group of people who engage with part of the product that you helped produce - that you'd be ok with that kink of tone being directed at you? Perhaps from multiple people who might use even more scornful language?


I don't know about you, but it would fast sap any enthusiasm I'd have to engage with that community. In fact I'd wager most people would simply leave and go elsewhere. Even if you're looking for feedback and critique that level of discourse isn't constructive nor productive; again it serve no purpose other than to insult. Again I'd not expect anyone to hang around in such an atmosphere.


insaniak wrote:Yes. Absolutely, it's better to not put themselves through that.

At best, being subjected to that sort of negativity on a constant basis is exhausting, demoralising, and bad for creativity and productivity. At worst, it's incredibly damaging to someone's mental health.

It's also pointless. When 90% of the 'feedback' that you're receiving is of the 'You suck and should die in a fire' kind, there is little value in wading through it trying to find the occasional gem of actual, practical critique. It's not going to give them an understanding of their customers' experience... it's just going to show them that a vocal section of the online community has no filter. Until the majority of people can learn to behave as if the guys in the studio are actual human beings, it's just not worth the bother of trying to sort through that.


Good God you people get wound up over a bad throwaway joke. Are we sure this isn't Twitter?


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 21:25:39


Post by: Overread


The problem with having a dry sarcastic style of humour online is that it is very hard to tell from an insult.


It also kind of was well timed to highlight the reason why GW designers don't appear on forums. Even if you meant it as a joke there are those who would not mean it as a joke. Or who would run with it and before long all you've got is an endless series of insults. Either from those spewing hate or those trying to just join in. Either way is not that welcoming nor engaging for a person to interact with.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 21:27:20


Post by: Voss


 Vermis wrote:

Good God you people get wound up over a bad throwaway joke. Are we sure this isn't Twitter?


See, the problem is, its only a 'throwaway joke' if people don't actually behave that way. We all know that some actually do (and go further), so as 'jokes' go, it falls pretty flat.

Sarcasm doesn't work when its actually an opinion people express with complete sincerity.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 21:31:48


Post by: MaxT


 Vermis wrote:

Good God you people get wound up over a bad throwaway joke. Are we sure this isn't Twitter?


The “just joking” defense uses the joke as a form of deflection.

This is a way for children to test boundaries: when they’ve crossed one, they can back away and not take ownership over what they said. This process allows children to learn. They realize where the social boundaries are, and (hopefully) won’t cross them again. By the time someone grows to become an adult, they should have a clear understanding of where these boundaries are. An adult who uses the just joking defense no longer is testing boundaries but is attempting to escape punishment for crossing them.

What bothers me most about adults using the just joking defense, however, is that someone is trying to not only escape blame, but reassign it. Instead of listeners reprimanding a speaker who says something cruel, insensitive, or wrong, they are told they are being overly sensitive for taking offensive. The just joking defense also ignores the power construct within it. Oftentimes, the punch line of an offensive statement attacks a group with less power within society.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 22:02:42


Post by: Irkjoe


MaxT wrote:
 Vermis wrote:

Good God you people get wound up over a bad throwaway joke. Are we sure this isn't Twitter?


The “just joking” defense uses the joke as a form of deflection.

This is a way for children to test boundaries: when they’ve crossed one, they can back away and not take ownership over what they said. This process allows children to learn. They realize where the social boundaries are, and (hopefully) won’t cross them again. By the time someone grows to become an adult, they should have a clear understanding of where these boundaries are. An adult who uses the just joking defense no longer is testing boundaries but is attempting to escape punishment for crossing them.

What bothers me most about adults using the just joking defense, however, is that someone is trying to not only escape blame, but reassign it. Instead of listeners reprimanding a speaker who says something cruel, insensitive, or wrong, they are told they are being overly sensitive for taking offensive. The just joking defense also ignores the power construct within it. Oftentimes, the punch line of an offensive statement attacks a group with less power within society.


Conversely, what you just described is a way to make joking impossible and force everybody to walk on eggshells at all times because someone might get upset. How can you even have a discussion with this mindset? And even if it wasn't a joke who cares.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 22:10:24


Post by: insaniak


 Vermis wrote:

Good God you people get wound up over a bad throwaway joke. Are we sure this isn't Twitter?

I'm not sure who you think is 'wound up'... I''m not feeling particularly agitated. A question was asked, and answered.

If you're not interested in actually participating in the discussion, feel free to move on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Irkjoe wrote:

Conversely, what you just described is a way to make joking impossible and force everybody to walk on eggshells at all times because someone might get upset. How can you even have a discussion with this mindset? And even if it wasn't a joke who cares.

It does nothing of the sort. What he was referring to is a comment that doesn't read as a joke at all, that is then walked back in an effort to paint those who respond to it as being unreasonable. There is plenty of space for levity, when it is presented in good faith.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 22:41:42


Post by: Irkjoe


We're talking about "I think they pick a different part of their anatomy when they come up with 40K rules." right? This is transparently a joke, if you want to make a case that it adds nothing to the discussion then I understand but the idea that this was cruel or insensitive is just silly. If I'm missing the comment forgive me, if that's all it takes to get under your skin I'm genuinely sorry for you. Either way, I'll leave it at that.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 22:48:16


Post by: Blastaar


Voss wrote:
Blastaar wrote:I said that the rules folks have an obligation to communicate with the players. Yes, to gain feedback, as well as explain their intentions with the rules.


I'm not sure what makes communication with customers an 'obligation.'

I'm not even clear how it would benefit them. They get feedback regardless, whether they want it or not, and whether its useful or not. In my experience, constructive criticism that's actually actionable doesn't come from anonymous online sources. Even in person, its vanishingly rare. If it isn't constructive and actionable, its a complete waste of time at best. So what would be the point?

'Explaining intent' is worse than useless. It gives people license and encouragement to quibble. Not discuss or debate, but bog down in what are essentially trivia fights that aren't worth wasting time on.


Perhaps the word "obligation" was too strong. It would be a mutual benefit if the rues team were to bother to come out of their hole periodically. Players may acquire some understanding of what actually happens when they sit down to write, what leads to the issues we see, etc., and for the rues team to be more in touch with what the players experience. It is painfully obvious that the rules writers have no clue what they actually produce. So what if feedback it isn't always constructive? Even general knowledge that the players are upset is something. You're making an awful lot of excuses, and I don't understand why. You sound bitter.


How does communication encourage arguing any more than bits of PR BS? We're already complaining that GW doesn't tell us enough, and arguing about whether it would be helpful if GW did explain things more!


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 22:49:09


Post by: insaniak


 Irkjoe wrote:
We're talking about "I think they pick a different part of their anatomy when they come up with 40K rules." right? This is transparently a joke, if you want to make a case that it adds nothing to the discussion then I understand but the idea that this was cruel or insensitive is just silly. If I'm missing the comment forgive me, if that's all it takes to get under your skin I'm genuinely sorry for you. Either way, I'll leave it at that.

It's only a joke when you're not the subject of it. Picture yourself as the creator of something, who has just had a comment like that directed specifically at you. For most people, it becomes considerably less funny at that point... hence my comment that it was a reason for said creators to stay away.

In isolation, a comment like that isn't a big deal. The problem is, for creators trying to have an inline presence these days, those sorts of comments don't remain in isolation for long.

Some people can take those waves of negative comments and just let them slide off. And that's a useful skill. But not everyone can do that, nor should they have to. And if they can't, or don't particularly want to, then until people start behaving themselves online, it's only sensible to not put themselves in that position in the first place.



GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 22:56:43


Post by: Overread


 insaniak wrote:

Some people can take those waves of negative comments and just let them slide off. And that's a useful skill. But not everyone can do that, nor should they have to. And if they can't, or don't particularly want to, then until people start behaving themselves online, it's only sensible to not put themselves in that position in the first place.




There's also the aspect of volume to consider. 1 Joker in the pack is fine, they can mostly be ignored or just overlooked or their comments don't hurt all that much.

But when you've got hundreds of "jokers" all at once building off each other, then its much harder to ignore. If you get to insults and such it gets even worse. The issue is volume and once it starts going toxic it can self perpetuate. I think we've all seen an online community go "toxic". Where any good comments get ignored or overlooked or piled on and where the general attitude of the active membership is very sour to insulting. Such environments are rarely a welcoming nor nice place to be.

You see this on steam a good few times where developers will often just outright ignore it by having their own forums and not using the steam ones.



I've also noticed that people who can let insults slide off their back (or retaliate) often can only keep it up for so long. A continual bombardment will cause them to engage less and less; or shift to more positive environments. Worse is if they stick it out they can end up changing in their personality and how they relate to the site; sometimes becoming as sour and jaded as the community they are interacting with. A very destructive cycle. Or if they lash out and "fight back" it becomes their normal attitude and something they can't turn off even in the face of more positive engagements.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/25 23:21:23


Post by: Vermis


Well if you can't pick up on the wordplay on 'picking' then I don't know what to say. Maybe I should've peppered the thing with smilies?

There are some more serious points I want to make, then. Starting with this one made by Techsoldaten already, that makes most of the topic moot:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Yeah, GW instituted a no social media policy a while back. It applies to all full time employees and selectively to freelancers, who are mostly involved in design projects. I think they sign NDAs on a per-project basis.


As for old GW employees: Beast GTS posted Tuomas Pirinen's twitter link too. Looking at his profile and a quick scan of his feed, I'd guess GW occupies very few of his waking moments these days. Why would an ex-GW studio member who's working with - what? EA? Ubisoft? His own RPG projects? - continue to hang around on a GW forum? Would that not be usual for staff who leave and are, presumably, not so hungry after they learn how the sausage is made and have ground up thousands of snouts and tails in their time? Does Paul Sawyer hang around here when his main focus is Warlord Games? Does Alessio Cavatore pop in to keep up with with the constant stream of KoW chat? They might attract a bit of interest because of their past history, but using someone like Easy E as an example of a non-GW rules writer who openly posts here, he's soundly (and unfortunately) ignored, squirreled away in the historicals board. No time to think of other games when there's a multi-page argument to be had about some obscure, awfully-written and inconsequential point of 40K rules.
Face it gentlemen, they may still be involved in the same general hobby sphere, but unlike us other manchildren, they've moved on.

(I wouldn't mind seeing Easy E's input on this. Whether he gets more feedback on social media or somewhere like TMP, compared to here; whether or not more of it is negative elsewhere; and whether it's worth it.)

Then there's the process of making GW rules. Now this may be a GW fan forum and anyone who displays negativity about their games is an icky troll and everything that's wrong with the world or somesuch, but I hope you can still grasp the highly corporate, cynical nature of GW's main rulesets for at least the past twenty years. They're not designed to be good games, they're designed to sell miniatures. I could say more but it's been said.
If we can take that point as given, I'd be extraordinarily surprised if anyone in the last few years went for a job in Nottingham HQ, all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, certain that they were going to write the best edition or codex or battletome for the best set of rules in the wargaming universe. If they did, I imagine they'd be disabused of that notion, pretty quickly. They're not there to innovate, they're there to churn. Less pan-seared prime steak, more McDonalds 99p menu.
They know full well what they're doing, who they're doing it for, and why. In that case, what would you think they'd expect? Do you think they'd still be so naive as to think no-one on the other side of the till would say 'hey waitaminnit'? Could it even be that, even with their corporate face on (and assuming they were permitted by GW to speak anyway), they'd think there's some legitimacy to the negativity?

And that negativity. To be honest, this thread is giving me flashbacks to Warseer. Biggest difference is no mass bannings of those who question Glorious Leader GW, yet. Anyway, contrary to what's being said, there's still an awful lot of hand-wringing and concern for the feelings of grown men who are paid to knowingly write bad rules, in here, and a lot of certainty that it's the mean kids chasing them out of the playground. As far as I can see in this thread, I'm the only one to propose that GW rules fall out of the machine with a grunt and a splat, rather than springing fully-formed from someone's immaculate brow. Maybe it's much worse in news and discussions about GW rules that I stopped looking at, the type of thing that apparently chased the likes of JohnnyHell away. Which doesn't exactly add doubt to my notion that the rules are trash. But I digress. I'll not say ranting about rules is not a factor in depriving Dakka of their, hum, insights, but I wonder how it stacks up against those things like:

A) they can't post here. Is verboten by GW.
B) they're just not that into you.
C) what possible reply they might have to the complaints. "Yes, we know"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Irkjoe wrote:
We're talking about "I think they pick a different part of their anatomy when they come up with 40K rules." right? This is transparently a joke, if you want to make a case that it adds nothing to the discussion then I understand but the idea that this was cruel or insensitive is just silly. If I'm missing the comment forgive me, if that's all it takes to get under your skin I'm genuinely sorry for you. Either way, I'll leave it at that.


Oh look, someone with a functioning sense of humour. I should have him stuffed.

(Note to the rest of you: I don't actually want to have Irkjoe taxiderrmied. You don't have to get all morally indignant on his behalf.)


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/26 00:10:51


Post by: greatbigtree


This is such a weird place for a pissing contest.

Like, how did a yes / no question turn into a pissing contest? The answer seems to be that GW employees, *if* they want to, can’t openly post in connection with being a GW employee.

After that, everyone’s just getting wet and smelly. So to join in, I ate a bunch of asparagus for supper. I’ve probably got the smelliest per here. I’m cocked and loaded, so to speak.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/26 02:56:35


Post by: Laughing Man


 greatbigtree wrote:
This is such a weird place for a pissing contest.

Like, how did a yes / no question turn into a pissing contest? The answer seems to be that GW employees, *if* they want to, can’t openly post in connection with being a GW employee.

After that, everyone’s just getting wet and smelly. So to join in, I ate a bunch of asparagus for supper. I’ve probably got the smelliest per here. I’m cocked and loaded, so to speak.

I fed my cats asparagus and they just drank their entire water bowl. Your move.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/26 05:17:47


Post by: tneva82


Blastaar wrote:
Voss wrote:
Blastaar wrote:I said that the rules folks have an obligation to communicate with the players. Yes, to gain feedback, as well as explain their intentions with the rules.


I'm not sure what makes communication with customers an 'obligation.'

I'm not even clear how it would benefit them. They get feedback regardless, whether they want it or not, and whether its useful or not. In my experience, constructive criticism that's actually actionable doesn't come from anonymous online sources. Even in person, its vanishingly rare. If it isn't constructive and actionable, its a complete waste of time at best. So what would be the point?

'Explaining intent' is worse than useless. It gives people license and encouragement to quibble. Not discuss or debate, but bog down in what are essentially trivia fights that aren't worth wasting time on.


Perhaps the word "obligation" was too strong. It would be a mutual benefit if the rues team were to bother to come out of their hole periodically. Players may acquire some understanding of what actually happens when they sit down to write, what leads to the issues we see, etc., and for the rues team to be more in touch with what the players experience. It is painfully obvious that the rules writers have no clue what they actually produce. So what if feedback it isn't always constructive? Even general knowledge that the players are upset is something. You're making an awful lot of excuses, and I don't understand why. You sound bitter.


How does communication encourage arguing any more than bits of PR BS? We're already complaining that GW doesn't tell us enough, and arguing about whether it would be helpful if GW did explain things more!


They get feedback anyway. Of course it doesn't really help with balance etc as that's wonky because changing imbalance makes more money. They don't take less profits just because they would be on forums.



GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/26 12:14:44


Post by: greatbigtree


 Laughing Man wrote:
 greatbigtree wrote:
This is such a weird place for a pissing contest.

Like, how did a yes / no question turn into a pissing contest? The answer seems to be that GW employees, *if* they want to, can’t openly post in connection with being a GW employee.

After that, everyone’s just getting wet and smelly. So to join in, I ate a bunch of asparagus for supper. I’ve probably got the smelliest per here. I’m cocked and loaded, so to speak.

I fed my cats asparagus and they just drank their entire water bowl. Your move.


Whoa! Hold on! Can’t we negotiate before we go to the nuclear option!?!


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/26 13:44:32


Post by: Unit1126PLL


As much as I wish I could sit down and have a game design discussion with the designers in person, I'm glad they don't post here.

I'm a wargame designer in a real life (though in a WAAAAAAAAAAAAY different field, not recreational games) and would love to talk shop (and the philosophy of game design, especially!) with the designers of frankly the most popular commercial miniatures wargame in the world.

But this forum isn't the place to do that, and I do think it is too hostile.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/26 13:58:42


Post by: catbarf


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'm a wargame designer in a real life (though in a WAAAAAAAAAAAAY different field, not recreational games) and would love to talk shop (and the philosophy of game design, especially!) with the designers of frankly the most popular commercial miniatures wargame in the world.

But this forum isn't the place to do that, and I do think it is too hostile.


Yeah, the videogame industry is exactly the same. Developers love to talk shop with other developers. What they don't like to do is go on a public forum and defend themselves against Internet vitriol.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/26 14:13:32


Post by: Voss


Blastaar wrote:
Voss wrote:
Blastaar wrote:I said that the rules folks have an obligation to communicate with the players. Yes, to gain feedback, as well as explain their intentions with the rules.


I'm not sure what makes communication with customers an 'obligation.'

I'm not even clear how it would benefit them. They get feedback regardless, whether they want it or not, and whether its useful or not. In my experience, constructive criticism that's actually actionable doesn't come from anonymous online sources. Even in person, its vanishingly rare. If it isn't constructive and actionable, its a complete waste of time at best. So what would be the point?

'Explaining intent' is worse than useless. It gives people license and encouragement to quibble. Not discuss or debate, but bog down in what are essentially trivia fights that aren't worth wasting time on.


Perhaps the word "obligation" was too strong. It would be a mutual benefit if the rues team were to bother to come out of their hole periodically. Players may acquire some understanding of what actually happens when they sit down to write, what leads to the issues we see, etc., and for the rues team to be more in touch with what the players experience. It is painfully obvious that the rules writers have no clue what they actually produce. So what if feedback it isn't always constructive? Even general knowledge that the players are upset is something. You're making an awful lot of excuses, and I don't understand why. You sound bitter.

They don't need to be involved to find out if players are upset. Or even to divine if it's meaningful upset.

Non constructive is feedback is useless to them. Why would they engage with it?

I have no idea why you think I 'sound bitter' or why that would even matter.


How does communication encourage arguing any more than bits of PR BS? We're already complaining that GW doesn't tell us enough, and arguing about whether it would be helpful if GW did explain things more!


Because for us, arguing is pointless entertainment. For them, it would be about and affect their jobs, the difference isn't subtle. Players wasting their free time doesn't matter, Writers wasting their work time does, especially if there isn't any benefit to it.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/26 14:24:33


Post by: Duskweaver


 Kanluwen wrote:
Really? You want to make that joke?

What 'joke' did you think I was making? We may have gotten our wires crossed.

My point was this: if Thomas Parrott got fired for what he did, Just Tony would definitely get fired for what he implied he would do. If he were hypothetically on GW's design team and got crap from random muppets on the internet about his work, responding with "Here's where I live; come and have a go if you think you're hard enough!" is not something GW would tolerate.

We now know that GW will fire you for the way you respond to donkey-caves on the internet, even if your response is an entirely understandable human reaction, or even if it's absolutely righteous. So why would any GW employee feel safe posting somewhere like Dakkadakka under their real name?

(FWIW, I do not agree with what happened to Thomas Parrott. The only thing I find at all humorous in the whole situation is GW's shameless hypocrisy... but that's very far away from the topic of this thread.)


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/26 14:41:37


Post by: Overread


 catbarf wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'm a wargame designer in a real life (though in a WAAAAAAAAAAAAY different field, not recreational games) and would love to talk shop (and the philosophy of game design, especially!) with the designers of frankly the most popular commercial miniatures wargame in the world.

But this forum isn't the place to do that, and I do think it is too hostile.


Yeah, the videogame industry is exactly the same. Developers love to talk shop with other developers. What they don't like to do is go on a public forum and defend themselves against Internet vitriol.


I've been a fan of the Factorio Developer Diaries because they put into reasonably simple terms a lot of the complex code that goes into quite basic things that a mundane person can at least appreciate, if not understand. In my view one of the reasons a lot of people get hostile at game developers is because they have no idea how to code at even the most basic level. They've just no idea. So its very easy to be hostile and critical because on the surface the changes/fixes can seem really simple. Yet under the hood of the engine they can be quite a complicated situation and the error might not be the result of a mistake, but instead a complex collection of elements working together that individually work well; but which when combined end up creating an unforeseen side effect.

I've always been of the opinion that one of the best ways to manage a community is to involve them a bit in the development process. To show then what really goes on behind the scenes. I think it does more to build trust and faith in the firm and also to start to make more of the consumer base aware of the work that goes into what they enjoy.


When you look at big firms that are top names in their industry they often harp on about the quality, processes and such that they use all the time. Because they know that the more they make the customer aware of how much work went into the creation of the product; the more respect the customer is potentially going to have and thus the more chance that they'll accept the premium price for a product. And I don't just mean when a company goes on about "X process" or "Y material" but actually goes into the showing of how its put together; the worker skill and man hours and such.

Take this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKqfC0E82gU

After watching I'm sure more people would have a greater appreciation and awareness of why those brushes cost more than a mass produced synthetic brush. It's all part of making your customer aware.

You can see it in forums too, those who are a bit more aware of the processes involved can be more appreciative of costs and such. I think GW misses a trick in not doing factory video tours and talking about how they make models from design to model more often. Even with Corona a sight of the working factory (not just the neat art they've done) can be a neat way to communicate how things have changed and what they are working with.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/26 16:48:42


Post by: catbarf


 Overread wrote:
I've been a fan of the Factorio Developer Diaries because they put into reasonably simple terms a lot of the complex code that goes into quite basic things that a mundane person can at least appreciate, if not understand. In my view one of the reasons a lot of people get hostile at game developers is because they have no idea how to code at even the most basic level. They've just no idea. So its very easy to be hostile and critical because on the surface the changes/fixes can seem really simple. Yet under the hood of the engine they can be quite a complicated situation and the error might not be the result of a mistake, but instead a complex collection of elements working together that individually work well; but which when combined end up creating an unforeseen side effect.

I've always been of the opinion that one of the best ways to manage a community is to involve them a bit in the development process. To show then what really goes on behind the scenes. I think it does more to build trust and faith in the firm and also to start to make more of the consumer base aware of the work that goes into what they enjoy.


When you look at big firms that are top names in their industry they often harp on about the quality, processes and such that they use all the time. Because they know that the more they make the customer aware of how much work went into the creation of the product; the more respect the customer is potentially going to have and thus the more chance that they'll accept the premium price for a product. And I don't just mean when a company goes on about "X process" or "Y material" but actually goes into the showing of how its put together; the worker skill and man hours and such.

Take this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKqfC0E82gU

After watching I'm sure more people would have a greater appreciation and awareness of why those brushes cost more than a mass produced synthetic brush. It's all part of making your customer aware.

You can see it in forums too, those who are a bit more aware of the processes involved can be more appreciative of costs and such. I think GW misses a trick in not doing factory video tours and talking about how they make models from design to model more often. Even with Corona a sight of the working factory (not just the neat art they've done) can be a neat way to communicate how things have changed and what they are working with.


Oh hey, also a fan of Factorio. I completely agree with everything you're saying; transparency is a good way to alleviate a lot of the frustrations that arise between fans and companies.

But there are, IMO, a couple of key factors to it.

One is that not every designer/developer is suited to that kind of engagement. You need a lot of patience and a cool head to have that kind of community engagement without it getting ugly when there are issues that seems confrontational or otherwise impassioned. Some people are good at that, some aren't. So, even the companies that do engage in this manner have one or a couple of 'community outreach' people, who are essentially doing PR. Total direct access to all the designers/developers is quite uncommon.

Another factor is that, tying back to it being a PR thing, how corporate a company is can have a big influence on how much community engagement there is. Wube Software is a handful of people working on games without a lot of baggage; something like EA games absolutely does not want their developers talking about roadmaps, reception to previous releases, current frustrations, and the like. GW seems a lot closer to the latter than to the former nowadays- and they certainly wouldn't want a designer going on the Internet and saying 'Yeah, we wrote all that fluff about AdMech walking everywhere because the model team hadn't made any transports, but now they have so we don't know what to do about it' (not a made-up example, I remember this from an interview with a former staffer).

And lastly, if you have to pick someone who can handle community outreach and toe the corporate line well enough, they're probably going to be putting a non-negligible number of hours into it and that adds to the expense. A lot of companies just don't feel it's worth the money. In some cases that's probably true, in others it definitely isn't.

So I'm honestly not sure whether GW appointing a spokesman to engage with the community would really be all that game-changing, since they'd probably be just as in the dark as the rest of the team is about what's going on behind the scenes, and beholden to maintaining the image of their corporate masters. It'd be cool to get one of the actual designers on here to talk about the game, but all it would take is one heated exchange, one comment taken out of context, giving away something corporate didn't want leaked, or corporate telling them to get back to work, and it'd be over.

I'd love to pick Robin Cruddace's brain. I just don't think it's likely to ever happen.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/26 17:01:29


Post by: Voss


Its also important to remember that the current GW is actually more open and responsive in many ways than it has been in the past. They actually do address rules and errata in a fairly timely matter, and they do have dedicated PR staff (regardless of whether people like their articles or responses) and still drag in studio folks for things like preview streams.

That's a big change from years past, whether people acknowledge it or not. Directly posting on forums and facebook doesn't come across as a necessary or important step on top of that. Certainly not with all the additional headaches that would come with it.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/27 07:10:51


Post by: Elemental


 Overread wrote:
There's also the aspect of volume to consider. 1 Joker in the pack is fine, they can mostly be ignored or just overlooked or their comments don't hurt all that much.

But when you've got hundreds of "jokers" all at once building off each other, then its much harder to ignore. If you get to insults and such it gets even worse. The issue is volume and once it starts going toxic it can self perpetuate. I think we've all seen an online community go "toxic". Where any good comments get ignored or overlooked or piled on and where the general attitude of the active membership is very sour to insulting. Such environments are rarely a welcoming nor nice place to be.


Let's not mince words--we can see it right here. On average, this community is horribly toxic, bitter and hate-filled when it comes to discussing the thing the site is nominally about. It's a terrible place to discuss actual 40K if you're not either on the hate-train or prepared to get shouted down by them if you express an opinion that's either positive, or negative but not knee-jerking, hyperbolic hatred.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/27 20:41:29


Post by: Voss


 Elemental wrote:
 Overread wrote:
There's also the aspect of volume to consider. 1 Joker in the pack is fine, they can mostly be ignored or just overlooked or their comments don't hurt all that much.

But when you've got hundreds of "jokers" all at once building off each other, then its much harder to ignore. If you get to insults and such it gets even worse. The issue is volume and once it starts going toxic it can self perpetuate. I think we've all seen an online community go "toxic". Where any good comments get ignored or overlooked or piled on and where the general attitude of the active membership is very sour to insulting. Such environments are rarely a welcoming nor nice place to be.


Let's not mince words--we can see it right here. On average, this community is horribly toxic, bitter and hate-filled when it comes to discussing the thing the site is nominally about. It's a terrible place to discuss actual 40K if you're not either on the hate-train or prepared to get shouted down by them if you express an opinion that's either positive, or negative but not knee-jerking, hyperbolic hatred.


That's more than a little one-sided. Hive mind theories like that are woe-fully inaccurate. Its mostly individuals on, frankly, any side of an issue.
I know I've had people flip out at me for not being positive enough.

Its a perfectly fine place to discuss 40k if you've got about a dozen or so specific individuals on ignore. (And media and off topic are fine with a dozen more ignored).


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/27 20:52:21


Post by: Tycho


Let's not mince words--we can see it right here. On average, this community is horribly toxic, bitter and hate-filled when it comes to discussing the thing the site is nominally about. It's a terrible place to discuss actual 40K if you're not either on the hate-train or prepared to get shouted down by them if you express an opinion that's either positive, or negative but not knee-jerking, hyperbolic hatred.


That happens occasionally, but really, posts like that contribute to that perceived negativity more than they help it. There's a lot of threads on a regular basis that aren't one sided hate-fests or pure white-knighting. There's a thread right now in 40k GD about strategems for example that has a lot of good stuff in it.

Like Voss said - you have to ignore a few folks, but that's no different than anywhere else. If it's that bad here ... why even stay or bother responding? I think it's actually a pretty big tribute to the site, the keepers/mods etc, and the community at large that it even still exists in this day and age. I've been on many forums for many different subjects ever since forums became a thing and this is one of only 3 of the ones I view that have survived the onset of Social Media, Reddit etc to stay active and relevant. In fact, of those 3, really only 2 are still truly active. One is "up" but mostly over run by bots and spam. So surely Dakka must be doing something right?

Still though - much as it might be cool to see a carefully curated Q/A w/someone form the GW design team, I can't blame 'em for not publicly wading in as an open member of said team. lol


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/27 20:55:21


Post by: beast_gts


Tycho wrote:
Still though - much as it might be cool to see a carefully curated Q/A w/someone form the GW design team, I can't blame 'em for not publicly wading in as an open member of said team. lol


James Hewitt did a Reddit AMA (admittedly after he left GW).


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/27 21:10:48


Post by: Tycho


James Hewitt did a Reddit AMA (admittedly after he left GW).


Hey thanks! I missed that one!


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/27 21:44:11


Post by: insaniak


Yeah, he's quite active on Twitter, and occasionally shares little gems from his time at GW as well.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/28 01:21:06


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Like the gem of how the AdMech stuff was't originally meant to be two separate Codices in 7th...


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/29 02:03:40


Post by: Blastaar


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Like the gem of how the AdMech stuff was't originally meant to be two separate Codices in 7th...


I just remember that AMA where he blamed everyone and everything but himself for his mistakes.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/08/29 15:18:47


Post by: Phenatix


lol. I highly doubt it.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/09/01 18:48:49


Post by: judgedoug


 Hanskrampf wrote:
Current employers are not allowed a board/social media presence I think.


Nah, that's wrong. Tons of the GW staff are publicly on Facebook and you can interact with them. Twitter, too. They tend to be members of the larger FB groups that are relevant to them.

I think they avoid posting on forums for the very reason that everyone on forums uses aliases. It's much more personal when people are using their real names and pictures on Facebook, so there's significantly less vitriol from anonymous sources. They may lurk, but definitely don't interact at the same quantity and quality as they do on social media.

The GW staff that I personally interact with on Facebook are all pretty good natured, too. Someone posts a pic in a group saying how much a sculpt from Keith Robertson sucks, the designer Likes it and moves on. Someone posts a pic in a group asking about model design choices, and then Keith chimes in and has a great conversation about it (this happened just a week and a half ago, and Rob Alderman joined in the same conversation).

Plus ex-staffers are very active as well. Rick Priestley, Alessio Cavatore, Tuomas Puirinen, Andy Chambers, and so on.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/09/01 19:10:34


Post by: JamesY


When I was at gw retail in Nottingham, I used to chat a lot with a senior sculptor who had not long returned to the company, and had been running a fairly popular blog whilst freelancing. He was asked to close it, and told that if he wanted to keep doing it, that he was welcome to do something similar from within the company. He didn't, he just stopped blogging altogether. That was in the tail end of the bad days though.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/09/02 00:01:20


Post by: solkan


Some of the big reasons why developers don't try to explain intent are:

* "Which version of the rules are we using/did we agree on to publish again?" There can be a lot of different versions of rules during development, and then after it's published you move on to writing the next thing. So it's easier than you might think to have the wrong version of a rule in mind. Especially if you're working on a FAQ/errata to that rule or something related to it.

* "What was that rule, and the six rules that relate to how it works again..." The same way that a judge can make a bad call during a tournament because they remembered a rule wrong, or forgot a relevant citation, even the developers can make mistakes.

* "I'm trying to explain what we meant. Don't take it quite so literally." 'nough said.

For most companies, a FAQ/errata document has the benefit that it gets written, then passed around so that other people can look for mistakes and problems, and then it gets published. That reduces, but doesn't eliminate, the risk of mistakes.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/09/02 01:54:05


Post by: chaos0xomega


 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I'm a wargame designer in a real life (though in a WAAAAAAAAAAAAY different field, not recreational games) and would love to talk shop (and the philosophy of game design, especially!) with the designers of frankly the most popular commercial miniatures wargame in the world.


I think you'd find the juice not worth the squeeze/don't meet your heroes and all that. Your type of wargame has little to nothing in common with "miniature tabletop games" like warhammer 40k (which is often called a "wargame", but falls a bit short in a number of key metrics. Having read a couple of former GW design teams books/blogs I think you'd find that their "philosophy of games design" is essentially "move dudes, roll dice, have fun" with little else there in terms of considerations for simulationist/abstractionist approaches, historical/simulated accuracy, modeling parameters, etc. James Hewitts interview with Goonhammer and Reddit AMAs give some insight as to what its like in the design studio, and you can get a palpable sense of his frustration with the lack of process or integrity taken in GWs approach to things.

If nothing else, theres always this: https://www.amazon.com/Tabletop-Wargames-Designers-Writers-Handbook/dp/1783831480

though I can't really say I recommend it if you're looking for a deep study on the topic.



GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/09/02 16:25:17


Post by: Unit1126PLL


I don't disagree. But I want to talk to them about why they think "move dudes, roll dice, have fun" requires any written rules at all.

I mean surely, someone somewhere must have a sense of the abstractions they want and whatnot. Otherwise, they wouldn't've built a wargame; any old person can "move dudes, roll dice, have fun" without needing a rulebook/app/codex/faq/whatever. It's not even a heartless moneygrab, because they could make a lot more money in ways other than wargaming (e.g. technology). The people clearly have some investment into making a wargame and not just making money - so I want to ask them why they do what they do, basically, and how they truly feel about the "move dudes, roll dice, have fun" philosophy (since that doesn't require a wargame or even structured rules).


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/09/02 16:47:47


Post by: Overread


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I don't disagree. But I want to talk to them about why they think "move dudes, roll dice, have fun" requires any written rules at all.


We tried that - it was called AoS at launch

It wasn't really very popular en-mass. IT also had no potential as a game to be played between clubs or at the national/regional or even international level because everyone was running around making their own rules. It was messy, lacked unity and a united game system might have taken years to arise and establish itself.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/09/02 16:51:18


Post by: Unit1126PLL


Right, but the philosophy of:
'wanting people to move dudes, roll dice, and have fun'
is inherently incompatible with the philosophy of:
'wanting a game that can be played between clubs, at the national/regional or even international level that isn't messy or lacking unity'.

So clearly their design philosophy is more evolved than "move dudes, roll dice, have fun." The questions are: what actually is the design philosophy? Why is it that way? Do you consider your philosophy when designing games? Do you, Mr. Designer, have a different design philosophy? Does the design philosophy ever clash with Corporate, or is it corporately imposed? Etc.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/09/02 17:05:25


Post by: judgedoug


 solkan wrote:
Some of the big reasons why developers don't try to explain intent are:


I don't think this is true. Even GW talks about design philosophy and intent openly. The AOS and 40k rules design columns (Rules of Engagement and Echoes From the Warp) in White Dwarf for the last year or two are phenomenal in this aspect.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/09/02 17:07:45


Post by: Unit1126PLL


Echoes from the Warp only addresses Apocalypse but I actually have a copy of that WD so I'll take a look.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/09/02 23:08:57


Post by: chaos0xomega


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I don't disagree. But I want to talk to them about why they think "move dudes, roll dice, have fun" requires any written rules at all.

I mean surely, someone somewhere must have a sense of the abstractions they want and whatnot. Otherwise, they wouldn't've built a wargame; any old person can "move dudes, roll dice, have fun" without needing a rulebook/app/codex/faq/whatever. It's not even a heartless moneygrab, because they could make a lot more money in ways other than wargaming (e.g. technology). The people clearly have some investment into making a wargame and not just making money - so I want to ask them why they do what they do, basically, and how they truly feel about the "move dudes, roll dice, have fun" philosophy (since that doesn't require a wargame or even structured rules).


You have to remember that the genesis of 40k wasn't as a wargame though, it was an RPG that morphed into a narrative skirmish RPG that scope creeped itself into a wargame. The game hasn't changed much since then, its still fundamentally using most of the same mechanical concepts and systems from that era (and in many cases suffering for it), and if anything most of the "process" and rules development to this day seems oriented along the mindset of "forging the narrative" rather than developing a proper wargaming ruleset and mechanical systems. Put in a more straightforward way, their process isn't about rules or mechanics at all, its about interactive storytelling on the tabletop.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/09/02 23:11:05


Post by: Unit1126PLL


I don't disagree with you, but that's part of why I want to talk about it.

Were rules considered based on how good they were at interactive storytelling? Is that their design philosophy? That's a fantastic design philosophy, and triggers so many follow-on questions...


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/09/03 12:14:29


Post by: Lord Damocles


 judgedoug wrote:
 solkan wrote:
Some of the big reasons why developers don't try to explain intent are:


I don't think this is true. Even GW talks about design philosophy and intent openly. The AOS and 40k rules design columns (Rules of Engagement and Echoes From the Warp) in White Dwarf for the last year or two are phenomenal in this aspect.

'phenomenal' is certainly a word...

The rules design articles in White Dwarf are largely gibberish ghoulishly masquerading as something intelligent.

From Jervis explaining that they wanted AoS at launch to have a points system... which is obviously why they didn't include one! to his claim that if you think that a unit is too overcoated to be able to justify taking it in a list that means that it is actually correctly priced.

Or the explanation of how a magical super computer balances Underworlds...

Or how the design of 40K 8th edition flipped completely after the disastrous launch of AoS for completely unrelated reasons...


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/09/03 13:21:40


Post by: beast_gts


I don't think Jervis has been involved with the actual rules writing for a while - he's more of an ideas person now.

There's an interview with Andy Chambers where he says that the iconic units for each faction should be under-costed to encourage you take them (trying to find it again - the YouTube link I had doesn't work anymore).


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/09/03 14:56:43


Post by: auticus


So clearly their design philosophy is more evolved than "move dudes, roll dice, have fun." The questions are: what actually is the design philosophy? Why is it that way? Do you consider your philosophy when designing games? Do you, Mr. Designer, have a different design philosophy? Does the design philosophy ever clash with Corporate, or is it corporately imposed? Etc.


I would love conversations like this as I too write wargames (for both entertainment and simulations).

to his claim that if you think that a unit is too overcoated to be able to justify taking it in a list that means that it is actually correctly priced.


I agree with him because people tend to focus on the things UNDER costed (optimal). Though of course some things can be overpriced as well legit, but a lot of correctly priced things will also seem overpriced since they are not optimal.

where he says that the iconic units for each faction should be under-costed to encourage you take them


From games I've been involved in, this was also a thing. If they wanted to see more of a unit (either on a video game being reprsented, or models moving) the marketing team wanted you to underpoint them to move them / see them more.

And it works. 100%.

And GW games are full of that and always have been.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/09/03 15:03:33


Post by: nels1031


 Lord Damocles wrote:

From Jervis explaining that they wanted AoS at launch to have a points system... which is obviously why they didn't include one!


Well, that does track with an interview with James Hewitt that explains that their hands were tied by an imposing upper management office who interfered in alot of ways that lead to AoS's launch.



GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/09/03 20:20:58


Post by: Easy E


Guys, if you want to talk Game Design, there is a sub-board on Dakka just for that topic.

I would love to talk game design!


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/09/03 20:40:44


Post by: thegreatchimp


Tycho wrote:
Paul Sawyer did sign up under his own name some years back. I don't think he lasted a week, thanks to people being unable to behave themselves.


Who would dare blaspheme the Fat Bloke!?

Seriously though, that's a shame. His era of WD is considered by many to be the golden era.
That is indeed shameful, and a pity as I'm sure he would be a great contributor to some discussions. His White Dwarf articles were some of the best and he had a good sense of humour.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/09/08 11:54:03


Post by: Not Online!!!


 greatbigtree wrote:
 Laughing Man wrote:
 greatbigtree wrote:
This is such a weird place for a pissing contest.

Like, how did a yes / no question turn into a pissing contest? The answer seems to be that GW employees, *if* they want to, can’t openly post in connection with being a GW employee.

After that, everyone’s just getting wet and smelly. So to join in, I ate a bunch of asparagus for supper. I’ve probably got the smelliest per here. I’m cocked and loaded, so to speak.

I fed my cats asparagus and they just drank their entire water bowl. Your move.


Whoa! Hold on! Can’t we negotiate before we go to the nuclear option!?!


Dakkacon2 announced.
Mobilise the firebrigades, warn the civilians, It's time to run and hide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blastaar wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Like the gem of how the AdMech stuff was't originally meant to be two separate Codices in 7th...


I just remember that AMA where he blamed everyone and everything but himself for his mistakes.


Not everyone can take criticism well.
Not everyone get's dark humor . ( i dare you to finish that joke...)



GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/09/10 20:11:03


Post by: Pariah Press


I'm a game designer (I work on Magic the Gathering) and I sometimes participate in small Magic forums. Forums like Dakka are big enough and insufficiently-moderated enough that threads devolve into toxicity too often. The signal-to-noise ratio is simply too low, and the tiresome unpleasantness is too high, to be worth it for someone like me to participate. There are plenty of ways to gather feedback, and there are plenty of ways I can spend my free time. Not wanting to spend hours of my time wading through a cesspool looking for nuggets of gold doesn't make me some sort of coward. Also, I've found that the opinions expressed in toxic online communities don't correspond with sales numbers, so I'd be better served gathering feedback elsewhere.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/09/10 21:34:08


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


You raise some salient points, but

Uh.

Edit: perhaps not the best place for a joke about your mother.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/09/11 02:36:22


Post by: Genoside07


I honestly don't think GW designers would post here, maybe lurk once in a while, but why deal with the toxic posters or possible stalkers if they find out who you are.
Recently I posted about what is going on with kill team and how my group feels about it. And one of the responce was "your friends are morons."
In a world of saying anything with no consequences; people can say and post whatever they want online; in a game store, they would not act like that very long.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/09/11 09:58:04


Post by: DalekCheese


This thread is a perfect example of why no designer would post here.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/09/11 10:13:05


Post by: Pacific


I was having a look at the Modiphius/Fallout forum recently and that, even being an official forum, you can see why some companies would choose not to expose their writers and development staff.
There was a lot of good discussion, but also you could see that a couple of posters in particular had turned up with sleeves rolled up looking for a fight. And unfortunately you only need one or two to sour the discourse.

I do think that the vast majority of posters are reasonable and would love the opportunity to ask genuine questions and have their feedback listened to. Similarly, if you've created/developed something then I'm sure you would like feedback on it. Not just "I hate it it sucks" but constructive criticism of why something doesn't work or recommendations. After all (and I think this is the same for any creative pastime) if we stop taking that feedback then how do we ever improve?

The flip-side of this, from the forum users perspective, is that I have seen forums that have tried to cater to developers (or in this case were hoping to get some 'official presence') and they became absolutely awful. I don't know what a North Korean-produced forum about wargaming would like, but this made a pretty good go of it. Posts and threads deleted, warnings issued, for even the slightest criticism (constructive or otherwise) of GW. And this was at a time not long after Finecast was released, so you can imagine what kind of atmosphere was created! I don't think it will be much of a surprise to say that it wasn't very much fun, I left at that time and I don't think the forum itself lasted too much longer.

The forums are what they are. I think Dakka is better than most, pretty lightly moderated and people can generally have some fun talking about their pastime and showing their stuff. There is always going to be some conflict about that and not everyone will like everything that is made, but I'm sure there is some useful feedback in amongst it (not to forget that the designers and creators are themselves fans) so I wouldn't be surprised at all if a number lurk in the background or post under aliases.


GW designers, do they post here? @ 2020/09/11 10:22:03


Post by: Not Online!!!


Spoiler:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Yeah, GW instituted a no social media policy a while back. It applies to all full time employees and selectively to freelancers, who are mostly involved in design projects. I think they sign NDAs on a per-project basis.

You will find some freelancers on blog sites. If you look through their historical posts, you can see how they influenced some of the current designs. Here's an example:

https://leskouzes.blogspot.com/2016/02/obliterators-emperors-children.html

UK Labor law exempts long time GW staff from this policy. A few of them are still active on Dakka:

- Martel732, GW's Global VP for Community Engagement

- Slayer-Fan123, who's on the design team, mostly focused on rules

- BaconCatBug, Senior Playtester

- Peregrine, Group Finance Director for Games Workshop Group PLC


I wish they'd hire BCB...............

People would actually be thankful if BCB were on the rules writing and proof reading team.


I mean for as much Gak we throw BCB's pedantic way of pedantry, He'd make a damn good editor and technical writer.
infact i dare say that putting him in there would atleast improve the technical writing of the rules by about 50%? atleast.
As a playtester? ehh maybee, i do think massed tests as free as possible would overall do a better job for the balancing but technical writing i'd say BCB would be a one man goldmine.