Anyone who thought Primaris was going to " replace " regular Marines, or that regular Marines were going to phase out, well hopefully you all can see that it is simply not true. GW is a company first and foremost, and all they did was create more kits to sell to us 40k fans. The regular Marines will always be here, just like Eldar, Dark Eldar, and all of the other original races will always be here. People still purchase all the old kits, and they will continue to offer them to 40k customers. GW has no reason to phase them out or get rid of them, so they will be here to stay. Even the Space Marine codex's support the fact that Primaris and Normal Space Marines work together to fight the foes of humanity. Will we see any brand new kits for regular Marines? Now that is a good question, one that I cannot answer. Hope you guys are having a great weekend and enjoying 9th in your basement. I know me and my friends are. Here's to the best edition of 40k yet, and as an Eldar/Tau player, im not mad about Primaris Space Marines getting all these new kits and shiny stuff. Let the players and 40k fans have it all, so that the hobby can survive! The more Space Marines that are on the table the more for our Xenos armies to obliterate and destroy! haha cheers!

Because the Market Research Drones managed to convince the beancounters the backlash would cost them more money than pressing on with the original plan.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because the Market Research Drones managed to convince the beancounters the backlash would cost them more money than pressing on with the original plan.

Or because people who aren't dead on the inside fought to keep them in.

I saw a pretty good counter-theory on here, that it's part of the longer-term plan to still phase them out, and bringing oldmarines up to 2W is just the next step.
The idea being that by the time 10th rolls around, GW can say "you know what, there's really not much difference in these units, we're rolling them into similar units.

I'm not entirely sure that, if this is true, it will come to pass all that smoothly - there'd have to be some more homogenisation come to pass first. Tacs and Intercessors are fairly easily lined up - but there are still a lot of differences between Assault Marines/Inceptors, and Devastators/Eliminators.

 Super Ready wrote:
I saw a pretty good counter-theory on here, that it's part of the longer-term plan to still phase them out, and bringing oldmarines up to 2W is just the next step.
The idea being that by the time 10th rolls around, GW can say "you know what, there's really not much difference in these units, we're rolling them into similar units.

I'm not entirely sure that, if this is true, it will come to pass all that smoothly - there'd have to be some more homogenisation come to pass first. Tacs and Intercessors are fairly easily lined up - but there are still a lot of differences between Assault Marines/Inceptors, and Devastators/Eliminators.

That's sort of what I was hoping for from the beginning. I just kind of wish they'd done it faster so we didn't spend years wondering. I also kind of wish they'd fluffed it as a new line of guns and armor rather than giving us the sort of convoluted retrofitted primaris fluff. But ah well.

All I really wanted were some taller marines with a little more staying power and slightly more killy guns. We're basically there at this point. Within a few years, primaris squads will be able to include one eradicator or hellblaster per 5 models in the unit, a missile launcher primaris will have come out that my devastators can be proxied as, and all will be well.

Then why bother with Primaris at all, if you're just going to make them exactly the same as normal marines?

 Crusaderobr wrote:
Anyone who thought Primaris was going to " replace " regular Marines, or that regular Marines were going to phase out, well hopefully you all can see that it is simply not true. GW is a company first and foremost, and all they did was create more kits to sell to us 40k fans. The regular Marines will always be here, just like Eldar, Dark Eldar, and all of the other original races will always be here.

Yes. Those original races, like Dark Eldar.

Congrats to those Slann and Squats, though, lasting all nine editions.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Then why bother with Primaris at all, if you're just going to make them exactly the same as normal marines?

Numerous reasons, really.

For GW's side, they:
- can sell new Marines to existing Marines players, who are by far the largest single target market GW has but in many cases might not be tempted by a new Tacticals box
- get to upset the meta balance and drive further sales to competitive players that way (ok, this could have been done with any faction)
- can use the scale creep to creep up other factions to suit later, too.

For the players, we got two long-standing gripes dealt with:
- truescale Marines
- something approaching Movie Marines.

I'm not saying that Primaris addresses everything here perfectly, but each approach (including doing nothing) has its own merits and flaws.

Also, I think you might be missing the endgoal. If this "merge" happens, the idea will be that the old Marines will no longer be produced, and you'll only be able to buy Primaris from GW as new stock.

I'm pretty sure the original plan was to phase them out.

Then they saw that there was a very large backlash against it and didn't want another Warhammer Fantasy situation on their hands so now they've gone back and brought squat marines in line with Primaris.

They might still squat them, who knows at this point? All that I know is that I'm not buying any more squat marines. I've learned my lesson with WHF. Don't swim close to a drowning man.

Re:" Old Space Marines " were never going away

Sure they are.

The thing is, you cannot replace such an iconic range of miniatures over night, or even over one edition. It has to be a long-term plan, as there are so many players with existing armies that you cannot leave them out in the cold so quickly.

The change to 2 wounds on First Born is just the next step along this timeline. Now the lines between Primaris and First Born will blur, putting them on (roughly) equal footing. Then, next edition, or maybe even two Codices from now, when we have even more Primaris miniatures, GW can come along and say something along the lines of:

"We realise that the miniature line for the Adeptus Astartes has grown well beyond what we initially imagined, and whilst this is certainly fun for veterans of the hobby, it can be extremely confusing for new players who are just getting their first paint-brush ready. For this reason, we have made the decision to retire a portion of the Space Marine miniature range, specifically the older kits you might call 'First Born'. They will retain their rules in Legends, but we will not be making further kits of these types."

Or words to that effect.

So they're not going away right now, that's for certain, but they aren't going to stay.

 Super Ready wrote:
I saw a pretty good counter-theory on here, that it's part of the longer-term plan to still phase them out, and bringing oldmarines up to 2W is just the next step.

It's exactly my theory.

If normal marines are not being phased out then show me how many 'old' marine releases there have been since Primaris came out (that isn't some lieutenant version).

Has there been even 1?

Part of the problem is Chaos Space Marines are also considered old Marines. If they get rid of old Marines they would have to get rid of Chaos Marines too, which I do not think will happen. Why would GW shelve old Marines? They keep on refreshing kits over and over and over again, and Chaos just got a refresh on almost all of the kits last year and got a new HQ and other new options to boot.

If GW axes old Marines, they will axe the entire 40k hobby imo, and thats never going to happen. As long as people still buy the kits, Marines will keep on trucking imo.

 Crusaderobr wrote:
Part of the problem is Chaos Space Marines are also considered old Marines. If they get rid of old Marines they would have to get rid of Chaos Marines too, which I do not think will happen.

That... doesn't follow. There isn't any logic connecting one premise to the other.

If they double down on Legions, particularly, they're not changing to Primaris because they are _old_ marines. They can fiddle with whatever justification (or new 'hybrid' kits) for renegades (or spew some nonsense justifying a lack of primaris renegades), but Chaos Marines don't have to follow the same path, either in the fluff or with model sales. Paradoxically, because Chaos Marines live in the Eye or the Maelstrom, they're effectively immune to the 'primaris change.'

They're getting two wounds. They're getting the updated weapons. If, in the next chaos codex, Legion traits become two-part traits like chapter traits and they get some sort of doctrine-like rule (much like necrons are getting protocols), there will be pretty minimal backlash (well, once those books actually happen).

Why would GW shelve old Marines? They keep on refreshing kits over and over and over again,

Yeah, but they aren't any more are they? As Ordana says, there aren't new oldmarine kits coming out.
In editions past, new codexes usually came with new tacticals, assaults or devastators. Or they came with the special snowflake chapters, like the BA tacticals.
8th edition? 9th edition? Nope. Not a refresh of those kits to be seen. Not even when the 8th edition codex happened twice.

and Chaos just got a refresh on almost all of the kits last year and got a new HQ and other new options to boot..

Yep. Chaos did. And... not a thing involved primaris.
There are some fluff hints that there will be a chaos response to primaris (particularly in the Fabius Bile novel), but it doesn't have to be 'chaos primaris.' Some new monstrosities, or more things like the 'greater possessed.'

 Ordana wrote:
If normal marines are not being phased out then show me how many 'old' marine releases there have been since Primaris came out (that isn't some lieutenant version).

Has there been even 1?

Certain people will soon be hear to tell you about the release of a limited edition Terminator model (not a First Born Marine, it's a Terminator), or because of the Japanese blind-box Marines, GW are still making Marines. Some might even try to claim that FW HH releases count.

Of course none of these do. There hasn't been a regular Marine release in a very long time, and whilst I've yet to go through the 9th rulebook, I'd be surprised if there were any new art featuring First Born Marines.

I still think they'll "go away", but at some point they'll converge so much it won't matter.

No idea what that'd mean for the fluff though.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I still think they'll "go away", but at some point they'll converge so much it won't matter.

No idea what that'd mean for the fluff though.

'We used to do it this way, now we do it the new way'
Recruits are new way only, old marines have all made the transition or died.

Easy. Datasheets suddenly drop to allow for an less-unreasonably-sized codex.

The big question will be is if they integrate the special/heavy Cawl weaponry into old-style squads or stick to the hyper-specialization.
The former has the advantage of letting people adapt like nothing ever happened, while still encouraging people to buy new kits.

 Crusaderobr wrote:
Part of the problem is Chaos Space Marines are also considered old Marines. If they get rid of old Marines they would have to get rid of Chaos Marines too, which I do not think will happen. Why would GW shelve old Marines? They keep on refreshing kits over and over and over again, and Chaos just got a refresh on almost all of the kits last year and got a new HQ and other new options to boot.

If GW axes old Marines, they will axe the entire 40k hobby imo, and thats never going to happen. As long as people still buy the kits, Marines will keep on trucking imo.

The problem is that Chaos Marines have also been getting bigger.

Here's the thing: If the plan had been to keep regular, old marines all along, then the new Chaos Marine kits would have been the same size as the old ones. Because if that's still supposed to be the size of a 'normal' marine, then Chaos Marines, who have been around since long before Primaris were a thing, have no reason to be any larger.

Instead, all of the recent Chaos kits have been embiggened to be just fractionally shorter than Primaris. Which makes it quite clear that this is the size that Marines are 'supposed' to be now.

Minimarines will go, eventually. GW are just giving people time to get used to Primaris being the thing now. As more of the old kits go to mail order only, and people buy the Primaris kits instead because they're more readily available and mostly look better, more and more armies will come to be solely made up of Primaris units, and those units that are no longer making their way onto the table will be quietly shuffled off.

Normalizing all the old profiles closer to their Primaris replacements provides a potential means of providing retroactive support while still phasing out the old line- let Intercessors take special and heavy weapons and presto, you have a way to field your old Tactical models. Maybe Firstborn won't disappear into Legends; maybe they'll just get folded into their Primaris replacements.

I'll admit I expected to see absolutely nothing until they eventually get Legends, but given the evidence, the writing is still on the wall for Firstborn.

I mean, let's talk strict facts here:
-No new Firstborn models as part of any regular line or release.
-Chaos Marines got updated with a new scale that has not translated to loyalist Firstborn in any way.
-Fluff outright stating that Primaris are the way forward, with all named chapters accepting the upgrade either wholeheartedly or begrudgingly.
-Just about all named characters becoming Primaris.

To me it seems hopelessly optimistic to think that the plan is for Firstborn to stick around in perpetuity (let alone be on the cusp of a new wave of releases), as a totally separate model line with its own rules, while all the characters you've known and loved for decades have already become Primaris and no longer have any Firstborn rules. The best case for long-time Marine players is that the rules converge Firstborn and Primaris such that they can continue to use their old models with the newest rules, as is already the case with those characters.

Well they will be "phased out" like every other old kit. At some point there's a Primaris Version of every old marine and they'll stop selling the old Marines but as right now with Rogue Trader beakies or Pariahs you can still use them, just in a different composition. All your Plasma Marines will be Helblasters, all Meltas are Eradicators, Bikes are Bikes and until then there will also be Primaris with missile launchers and flamers. It's basically what we Chaos players did with our Bolter and special weapon Havocs, they're simply Chosen or normal CSM now.

I agree that, maybe, at the very start they had intended on phasing out original marines; however, I think the realization of the new release schedule quickly made them realize that would be silly.

They need to keep releasing new space marine kits every few months. Thus the only real option is to re-do all the Firstborn kits. It'll be <redacted> cheap for R&D with the new CAD support to create all the different kits. So it should keep the profits and growth flowing for years to come.

 Super Ready wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Then why bother with Primaris at all, if you're just going to make them exactly the same as normal marines?

Numerous reasons, really.

For GW's side, they:
- can sell new Marines to existing Marines players, who are by far the largest single target market GW has but in many cases might not be tempted by a new Tacticals box
- get to upset the meta balance and drive further sales to competitive players that way (ok, this could have been done with any faction)
- can use the scale creep to creep up other factions to suit later, too.

For the players, we got two long-standing gripes dealt with:
- truescale Marines
- something approaching Movie Marines.

I'm not saying that Primaris addresses everything here perfectly, but each approach (including doing nothing) has its own merits and flaws.

Also, I think you might be missing the endgoal. If this "merge" happens, the idea will be that the old Marines will no longer be produced, and you'll only be able to buy Primaris from GW as new stock.

Just $$$$$$$$$$

That's all.

Stat increases and scale increases could have happened without Primaris.

 Crusaderobr wrote:
Anyone who thought Primaris was going to " replace " regular Marines, or that regular Marines were going to phase out, well hopefully you all can see that it is simply not true. GW is a company first and foremost, and all they did was create more kits to sell to us 40k fans. The regular Marines will always be here, just like Eldar, Dark Eldar, and all of the other original races will always be here. People still purchase all the old kits, and they will continue to offer them to 40k customers. GW has no reason to phase them out or get rid of them, so they will be here to stay. Even the Space Marine codex's support the fact that Primaris and Normal Space Marines work together to fight the foes of humanity. Will we see any brand new kits for regular Marines? Now that is a good question, one that I cannot answer. Hope you guys are having a great weekend and enjoying 9th in your basement. I know me and my friends are. Here's to the best edition of 40k yet, and as an Eldar/Tau player, im not mad about Primaris Space Marines getting all these new kits and shiny stuff. Let the players and 40k fans have it all, so that the hobby can survive! The more Space Marines that are on the table the more for our Xenos armies to obliterate and destroy! haha cheers!

GW had plenty of reasons to get rid of old marines and replace with with the lore abominations that are Primaris. Mainly the release of Primaris allows them to eventually invalidate all the old marines floating around on the used models market which is money that GW can't profit off of. It forces existing marine players to eventually buy new models and makes it difficult/impossible for old models to be recirculated to new players or players looking to start marine armies. I think the inital plan was to phase them out rapidly but the initial backlash probably made them worry about causing a rapid collapse of the fan base if they just came out with the 8th SM codex without having rules for old marines. You can see it in some of their odd rules decisions such as Primaris not being able to use Drop Pods, Rhinos, Land Raiders, etc when you can put much bigger units in Pods such as Terminators (which can also go in land raiders), Centurions, and even a Dreadnought.

GW turned course because they (for whatever reason) determined that such a sweeping set of model invalidation would cause an uproar and potentially be rejected by the community. Last thing GW wants is 40k players to start playing with organized rulesets not made by GW themselves as it takes away one of their primary marketing tools.

Primaris in fact should have never existed. Simply GW should have updated old kits with newer ones adding a couple of additional kits at most.

Take new sisters of battle or new necron warriors; they're not new units that replaced old ones.

Invalidating the secondary market was probably the main reason. The other is that Tactical squads have options... which is confusing for new players, who sometimes put what looks cool rsther than what's meta-optimal on their units. So they make Primaris kits, which are one-weapon, so little Timmy can't make that mistake, *and* the rules are so good that the army kind of pilots itself.

 Ordana wrote:
If normal marines are not being phased out then show me how many 'old' marine releases there have been since Primaris came out (that isn't some lieutenant version).

Has there been even 1?

using that logic Tyranids are getting squatted.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
If normal marines are not being phased out then show me how many 'old' marine releases there have been since Primaris came out (that isn't some lieutenant version).

Has there been even 1?

using that logic Tyranids are getting squatted.

Tyranids don't occupy the same space in the game as Astartes do.

Hecaton wrote:
Invalidating the secondary market was probably the main reason. The other is that Tactical squads have options... which is confusing for new players, who sometimes put what looks cool rsther than what's meta-optimal on their units. So they make Primaris kits, which are one-weapon, so little Timmy can't make that mistake, *and* the rules are so good that the army kind of pilots itself.

Little Timmy can buy multiple boxes of the same unit if he regrets the loadout he gave to his marines though.

Enforcing WYSIWYG in a game that sells options and then consistently reshufles them is crazy anti consumer. Funny how competitive players embrace that under the pretense that it is harder to play against otherwise.

In any case, it is quite clear that for quite some time primaris options have been superior from a gameplay perspective to their first born equivalents. Upping the wounds on first born is unlikely to change that, although it might help sell a few old specialist kits. I sincerily doubt anyone will be fielding tactical marines any time soon.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Then why bother with Primaris at all, if you're just going to make them exactly the same as normal marines?

Old-school Marines represent the dark age, while Primaris the uprise to the age of renaissance.
I prefer old-school Marines for my BA, especially for the signature units such as DC.

Grey40k wrote:
Enforcing WYSIWYG in a game that sells options and then consistently reshufles them is crazy anti consumer. Funny how competitive players embrace that under the pretense that it is harder to play against otherwise.

GW has never made any particularly strong demands for WYSIWYG. It has barely even existed in the rules of most editions of the game. It is, and always has been, a player convention intended to make the game less confusing to play, and for the most part exactly how strictly it is followed has always been up to the players.

 Blackie wrote:
Primaris in fact should have never existed. Simply GW should have updated old kits with newer ones adding a couple of additional kits at most.

Take new sisters of battle or new necron warriors; they're not new units that replaced old ones.

Totally different - the vast (bloated) Marine range was already in plastic and most marine players had alrady got them all or at least the ones they wanted.

Sisters had only metal models that were expensive and not even on the shelves.

Selling a entire new range of Marines is going to get more sales than yet another Tac Marine......

Also FW makes another entire vast range of Small Marines....so they are not going away.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Primaris in fact should have never existed. Simply GW should have updated old kits with newer ones adding a couple of additional kits at most.

Take new sisters of battle or new necron warriors; they're not new units that replaced old ones.

Totally different - the vast (bloated) Marine range was already in plastic and most marine players had alrady got them all or at least the ones they wanted.

Sisters had only metal models that were expensive and not even on the shelves.

Selling a entire new range of Marines is going to get more sales than yet another Tac Marine......

Also FW makes another entire vast range of Small Marines....so they are not going away.

Well, what about necrons?

And while I agree about plastic being better than metal, take a look at prices. New plastic sisters aren't cheaper than older metal ones, at all. In fact many kits are actually more expensive. 60 and 65 euro for a razorback and a predator equivalent? Lol. Older versions used to be 40 and 45 a couple years ago.

Grey40k wrote:
Enforcing WYSIWYG in a game that sells options and then consistently reshufles them is crazy anti consumer. Funny how competitive players embrace that under the pretense that it is harder to play against otherwise.

WISIWYG has never been a strict rule. And it's also perfectly fine to play with models that are assembled with a wargear that doesn't fit the flavour of the month.

 Blackie wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Primaris in fact should have never existed. Simply GW should have updated old kits with newer ones adding a couple of additional kits at most.

Take new sisters of battle or new necron warriors; they're not new units that replaced old ones.

Totally different - the vast (bloated) Marine range was already in plastic and most marine players had alrady got them all or at least the ones they wanted.

Sisters had only metal models that were expensive and not even on the shelves.

Selling a entire new range of Marines is going to get more sales than yet another Tac Marine......

Also FW makes another entire vast range of Small Marines....so they are not going away.

Well, what about necrons?

And why I agree about plastic being better than metal, take a look at prices. New plastic sisters aren't cheaper than older metal ones, at all. In fact many kits are actually more expensive. 60 and 65 euro for a razorback and a predator equivalent? Lol. Older versions used to be 40 and 45 a couple years ago.

Its GW nothing gets cheaper! Yeah I know re Sisters - I bought ALL of them - I said I would if they re-did them and I have - even managed to get the ltd box set

Necrons are not just old models being redone - lot of new models as well?

 insaniak wrote:

Grey40k wrote:
Enforcing WYSIWYG in a game that sells options and then consistently reshufles them is crazy anti consumer. Funny how competitive players embrace that under the pretense that it is harder to play against otherwise.

GW has never made any particularly strong demands for WYSIWYG. It has barely even existed in the rules of most editions of the game. It is, and always has been, a player convention intended to make the game less confusing to play, and for the most part exactly how strictly it is followed has always been up to the players.

It is strong in tournaments, including those heavily backed by GWS. If they didn't want this, they could have easily explicitly stated it in the rules.

https://www.adepticon.org/wpfiles/2019/2019model.pdf

Messing with with wargear options constatly, putting some in legends, those are nasty for those of us who enjoy the hobby side.

GW doesn't write the tournament rules for AdeptiCon. Enforcing WYSIWYG is a choice made by tournament organizers to reduce cheating, nothing to do with GW.

 Blackie wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Primaris in fact should have never existed. Simply GW should have updated old kits with newer ones adding a couple of additional kits at most.

Take new sisters of battle or new necron warriors; they're not new units that replaced old ones.

Totally different - the vast (bloated) Marine range was already in plastic and most marine players had alrady got them all or at least the ones they wanted.

Sisters had only metal models that were expensive and not even on the shelves.

Selling a entire new range of Marines is going to get more sales than yet another Tac Marine......

Also FW makes another entire vast range of Small Marines....so they are not going away.

Well, what about necrons?

And why I agree about plastic being better than metal, take a look at prices. New plastic sisters aren't cheaper than older metal ones, at all. In fact many kits are actually more expensive. 60 and 65 euro for a razorback and a predator equivalent? Lol. Older versions used to be 40 and 45 a couple years ago.

Necrons are a bit differant from Marines in a few areas. Marines had just gotten a refreshed tactical marine kit, as well as a devestator and assault marine kit. all those kits are only about 5 years old or so now. GW can't keep just doing them, and the design space for old marines was getting pretty narrow. hence why in 6th and 7th the marine releases where centurions fliers and anti flier. all pretty niche stuff, Primaris allows them to basicly redo the entire marine line. which likely means insane levels of profits.

If GW wanted to replace "old Marines" with Primaris, they would have just made the new models "Marines".

The entire point of inventing the convoluted "Primaris" storyline only exists so you can have both "Primaris" and "old Marine".

If GW wanted to phase out old Marines (within the foreseeable future of 2017), they would've skipped it. "Primaris" as a concept exists only and for the sole purpose of "keeping" old Marines.

 insaniak wrote:
GW doesn't write the tournament rules for AdeptiCon. Enforcing WYSIWYG is a choice made by tournament organizers to reduce cheating, nothing to do with GW.

Tournaments enforce it because it is the simplest rule to write.

GW knows tournaments enforce WYSIWYG, and GW writes and reshuffles rules so that loadouts become very imbalanced frequently. They cannot wash their hands from it.

We can go from individual infantry modeling to unit modeling; e.g. centurions were the MVPs towards the end of 8th and now it is aggressors. This is not random, GW did that with their rule writing.








Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
If GW wanted to replace "old Marines" with Primaris, they would have just made the new models "Marines".

The entire point of inventing the convoluted "Primaris" storyline only exists so you can have both "Primaris" and "old Marine".

If GW wanted to phase out old Marines (within the foreseeable future of 2017), they would've skipped it. "Primaris" as a concept exists only and for the sole purpose of "keeping" old Marines.

That logic does not hold water.

Simply replacing all sculpts and making old marines unplayable would have both unwise (massive resistance of old marine players) and unfeasible (they did not have enough primaris models).
Alternatively, allowing both old and new marines to coexist with equal rules would have defeated the obvious purpose of selling new models.

Keeping old marines and expanding the marines line with new sculpts without making the newer the only supported and better IG would be a nightmare logistically (for production and retail) and a bad ROR for the investment in new sculpts (new molds, design, marketing).

The moment they rolled out the primaris line it became clear that it was planned obsolescence for old marines until they became irrelevant (and possibly legends).

Right now the only thing that I think might convince me GW didn't intend to squat old marines is a substantial release, like one that involved a serious investment: overhauling some squads or tanks that are showing their age, a flyer, specialist squad, some named characters defined by their choice or need to not be primaris, etc., that are kits that would be hard to repurpose and costly to take out of service, were the primaris line to become the only marines.

Rules support is relatively cheap.

If GW wanted to phase out old Marines (within the foreseeable future of 2017), they would've skipped it. "Primaris" as a concept exists only and for the sole purpose of "keeping" old Marines.

That doesn't make any sense ....

Sadly, old marines (imo) are going away at some point. The catch is, when people hear this, they think "No! It's already been three years and they're still here! They aren't going anywhere!" While I wish that were true, I think it's more like a 10 year (from the first 8th ed Marine codex) time scale.

At the time of release of Primaris, GW still had a few molds of old marine stuff that likely haven't made their money back yet (due to being newer than some of the others) and then there's the fact that, of all the changes you could make to the game, squating old marines is the most significant imo. GW makes changes all the time that make people mad and threaten to quit, BUT coming out in 8th and saying "As of now, old marines are no more", would probably be one of the few changes that really could push away a large quantity of players over night.

The only way for them to do this without costing them too many customers is to soft-squat them. There are people out there (myself included in this) who literally have entire chapters of old marines. This isn't Squats where all they had was a handful of armor cast units and an "unofficial" codex in Inquisitor magazine. People own thousands of them. So yeah, it's going to be a long slow decent.

As for them getting 2 wounds? Honestly, I think they should have been like that in the first place but I think that was really more about getting CSM closer to par than anything else, and it becomes very hard to justify giving CSM 2w w/out giving the loyalists 2. I also think HBMC has a good point that giving loyalists 2 wounds is another way to begin to be able to say "see, they're so similar that we don't need both".

My bet is, in a few years, we start seeing the "No longer available online" tag on old marine units in the web store, and they just slowly start fading away at that point.
I would guess that the first 10th ed Marine book becomes the first marine book to omit firstborn stuff entirely.

EDIT:

-Chaos Marines got updated with a new scale that has not translated to loyalist Firstborn in any way.

Meant to add that quote as well because it's pretty damning in terms of the old marines. When CSM 2.0 came out, they updated the actual Chaos Marines and the Havocs to be bigger and get some additional love. I can't think of another time where a CSM kit got updated, and its equivalent Loyalist kit did NOT get updated. Loyalist stuff gets updated all the tiem without translating that back to the chaos side, but it's incredibly rare that it goes the other way. The only other one I can think of is the Helbrute, but that was more to just add tentacles to the them so they were more different. CSM models actually got scaled WAY up (my 'zerkers look like children next to them lol), as did the Havocs, and yet all the old marine stuff has remained the same.

From articles with people that worked for GW, it seems like GW planed to pull an End Times a long time, before 8th ed, alongside a partial reset for factions. But then the reaction to actual End Times and AoS happened, and they had to scramble to change stuff, because it is one thing to experiment with a game that generates loses and another to try it with the thing that keeps the company afloat.

In the end it probably matters little. Why is often an excuse, what matter is how. And 8th was the way it was, they clearly had no idea what to do with some factions, books like necrons, orcs, tyranids or GK were just put out, because everyone was suppose to get one and there was no in depth lore or faction balance behind it.

Tycho wrote:

-Chaos Marines got updated with a new scale that has not translated to loyalist Firstborn in any way.

Meant to add that quote as well because it's pretty damning in terms of the old marines. When CSM 2.0 came out, they updated the actual Chaos Marines and the Havocs to be bigger and get some additional love. I can't think of another time where a CSM kit got updated, and its equivalent Loyalist kit did NOT get updated. Loyalist stuff gets updated all the tiem without translating that back to the chaos side, but it's incredibly rare that it goes the other way. The only other one I can think of is the Helbrute, but that was more to just add tentacles to the them so they were more different. CSM models actually got scaled WAY up (my 'zerkers look like children next to them lol), as did the Havocs, and yet all the old marine stuff has remained the same.

My hope is they're finally separating Chaos from Loyalist in a meaningful way. i.e., that chaos isn't just 'loyalist with spikes on'
Even the helbrute is pretty distinct (I don't care for all the fleshy bits, but gone are the days were putting a few bits on the exterior of a loyalist dread works.

As its own, truly independent faction, they can do so much more with chaos, without having to refer back to the 'standard.'

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
I saw a pretty good counter-theory on here, that it's part of the longer-term plan to still phase them out, and bringing oldmarines up to 2W is just the next step.

It's exactly my theory.

You're not the only one. One local player who got into 40k for the first time in 8th saw the writing on the wall for First Born Marines and bought nothing but Primaris units, I sort of regretted not being on the same page at first.

Now I'm looking at kitbashing Intercessor-based Tac, Devastator, and Assault Marines (and the feasibility of cannibalizing my existing marines to do it instead of buying all new stuff...) so my two-wound First Born don't look funny next to my two-wound Primaris. That other guy is in the same boat, except he doesn't have any First Born marines to be giving funny looks.

I mean honestly, what's the difference between any of the First Born veteran squads and a Primaris squad outside of the different war gear and transport options now that they have W2?

Primaris have an extra attack and better pistols *shrug*

IMO they just hit the pause button with this on their "grand plan" because even marine players are getting annoyed by all the primaris all the time. If they keep the flood of new marine up for another year, there is a chance of them impacting sales negatively because unhappy customers = less $$$.

 Jidmah wrote:
Primaris have an extra attack and better pistols *shrug*

First Born Veterans have the same A2 as basic Primaris, and better pistols would fall under "different wargear" even if most Primaris weren't carrying the same basic Bolt Pistol that all the First Born squads carry.

Voss wrote:

Yep. Chaos did. And... not a thing involved primaris.
There are some fluff hints that there will be a chaos response to primaris (particularly in the Fabius Bile novel), but it doesn't have to be 'chaos primaris.' Some new monstrosities, or more things like the 'greater possessed.'

There are fluff hints that involve Primaris too. They’ve all but told us Cawl will make/has already made Traitor Legion Primaris, plus references to capturing Primaris for Bile to experiment. They’re paving several roads, and I’m not sure even they know which one they want to drive on yet. And we haven’t even mentioned the most obvious one they’ve been using for more than 10,000 years when the Chaos gods boosted Horus enough to be an equal to the Emperor. Not that big of a jump to suggest absorbing that much energy gave them 2W.

Sisters survived when they were mail order AND metal only - I think the truely vast amounts of plastic marines means they will be around for at least a few decades.

Plus a large proportion of FW is dedicated to old school Marines

They’ve all but told us Cawl will make/has already made Traitor Legion Primaris,

Where's that?

We have numerous sources saying Bile will have some sort of answer, but I haven't seen anything suggesting Cawl has/will make traitor marines. That makes even less sense than the original fluff for the loyal Primaris. That said, I know there's Cawl stuff I haven't read so maybe it's in there? What's the source for that assumption?

Tycho wrote:

They’ve all but told us Cawl will make/has already made Traitor Legion Primaris,

Where's that?

We have numerous sources saying Bile will have some sort of answer, but I haven't seen anything suggesting Cawl has/will make traitor marines. That makes even less sense than the original fluff for the loyal Primaris. That said, I know there's Cawl stuff I haven't read so maybe it's in there? What's the source for that assumption?

I haven't seen it myself but as I understand it Cawl has access to the Emperor's original gene-seed banks for all 20 of the original Legions, including the traitors and the two that got redacted.

I haven't seen it myself but as I understand it Cawl has access to the Emperor's original gene-seed banks for all 20 of the original Legions, including the traitors and the two that got redacted.

"Has access to" is very different from "has or is going to make ..."

Voss wrote:

My hope is they're finally separating Chaos from Loyalist in a meaningful way. i.e., that chaos isn't just 'loyalist with spikes on'
Even the helbrute is pretty distinct (I don't care for all the fleshy bits, but gone are the days were putting a few bits on the exterior of a loyalist dread works.

As its own, truly independent faction, they can do so much more with chaos, without having to refer back to the 'standard.'

I mean, there are still "regular" chaos dreadnoughts in use by some legions. They don't exclusively use helbrutes. Same goes for most units that both sides get (bikes, all the rhino chassis, even land speeders/attack bikes are still used as-is by some legions).

Chaos space marines aren't all corrupted by demons.

Breton wrote:

Voss wrote:

Yep. Chaos did. And... not a thing involved primaris.
There are some fluff hints that there will be a chaos response to primaris (particularly in the Fabius Bile novel), but it doesn't have to be 'chaos primaris.' Some new monstrosities, or more things like the 'greater possessed.'

There are fluff hints that involve Primaris too. They’ve all but told us Cawl will make/has already made Traitor Legion Primaris, plus references to capturing Primaris for Bile to experiment. They’re paving several roads, and I’m not sure even they know which one they want to drive on yet.

I'm sure they've decided.

But they haven't told us anything, just hinted around the subject in novels- if anything, Cawl's Primaris from 'traitor legion' stock would be more loyalists. But its also a pure fluff thing for people doing DYI chapters, it never needs to come up 'officially.'
Biles take on Primaris (at the end of Manflayer) is riddled with a lot of contempt, for both the concept and for Abaddon looking for a counter. But like I said, what form that 'counter' takes doesn't have to be primaris.

If it happens on the table at all, which isn't a certainty- the current status quo may last for a while (and IMO should), especially with the updates to wounds and equipment. I'd like to see where chaos stands with improved gear, 2W, all the various stuff (F&F, etc) integrated into the main codex, and updated legion traits and 'chaos doctrines.' Once we've got a good idea of where Chaos stands after the 9th edition codex, then we can worry about 'chaos vs. primaris.' Personally, I don't think it will be a big deal after all the changes catch up.

And we haven’t even mentioned the most obvious one they’ve been using for more than 10,000 years when the Chaos gods boosted Horus enough to be an equal to the Emperor. Not that big of a jump to suggest absorbing that much energy gave them 2W.

Not sure what this is about. All marines going to 2W isn't a fluff or 'energy' thing. Its pure game mechanics, supposedly to better represent marines as they've always existed.


-----

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Voss wrote:

My hope is they're finally separating Chaos from Loyalist in a meaningful way. i.e., that chaos isn't just 'loyalist with spikes on'
Even the helbrute is pretty distinct (I don't care for all the fleshy bits, but gone are the days were putting a few bits on the exterior of a loyalist dread works.

As its own, truly independent faction, they can do so much more with chaos, without having to refer back to the 'standard.'

I mean, there are still "regular" chaos dreadnoughts in use by some legions. They don't exclusively use helbrutes. Same goes for most units that both sides get (bikes, all the rhino chassis, even land speeders/attack bikes are still used as-is by some legions).

Chaos space marines aren't all corrupted by demons.

Sure, in theory. In practice, a helbrute isn't the same as a dreadnought (different stats and equipment) and its all the chaos codex gives access to.
And yes, you can do non-spiky bikes and things, but getting a hold of models that match the increased height of the new chaos marines (let alone primaris, without actually being primaris) will get increasingly difficult over time.

The Newman wrote:
First Born Veterans have the same A2 as basic Primaris, and better pistols would fall under "different wargear" even if most Primaris weren't carrying the same basic Bolt Pistol that all the First Born squads carry.

The real difference is in force org slots. You can't take oldmarine veterans as Troops, and given that they're usually Elites, they're in a hotly contested slot. For that reason I still don't think veterans will be that popular in the new Codex unless their slot changes.

As for Helbrutes? From a lore perspective, they are still basically Dreadnoughts - the difference being the allegiance and mindset of the occupant, not the level of mutation. You can put spikes on an Imperial Dread and presto, you've still got a Helbrute, the fleshy bits aren't necessary.

Voss wrote:

Sure, in theory. In practice, a helbrute isn't the same as a dreadnought (different stats and equipment) and its all the chaos codex gives access to.
And yes, you can do non-spiky bikes and things, but getting a hold of models that match the increased height of the new chaos marines (let alone primaris, without actually being primaris) will get increasingly difficult over time.

You can still take a Ferrum Infernus Dreadnought at the moment and its only difference with a regular helbrute is that it looses it "Frenzied" ability. The equipment and stats stays the same.
Its gonna suck if they get rid of oldmarines without giving an equivalent option for non corrupted traitor legions.

Breton wrote:

Voss wrote:

Yep. Chaos did. And... not a thing involved primaris.
There are some fluff hints that there will be a chaos response to primaris (particularly in the Fabius Bile novel), but it doesn't have to be 'chaos primaris.' Some new monstrosities, or more things like the 'greater possessed.'

There are fluff hints that involve Primaris too. They’ve all but told us Cawl will make/has already made Traitor Legion Primaris, plus references to capturing Primaris for Bile to experiment. They’re paving several roads, and I’m not sure even they know which one they want to drive on yet. And we haven’t even mentioned the most obvious one they’ve been using for more than 10,000 years when the Chaos gods boosted Horus enough to be an equal to the Emperor. Not that big of a jump to suggest absorbing that much energy gave them 2W.

Then how did tacs gw 2W? It has nothing to do with absorbing chaos energy, it's just gw making all marines equal. 2W Chosen are csm answer to primaris: same number of wounds, attacks, cc weapons in addition to guns, and a greater selection of available weapons.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

Voss wrote:

My hope is they're finally separating Chaos from Loyalist in a meaningful way. i.e., that chaos isn't just 'loyalist with spikes on'
Even the helbrute is pretty distinct (I don't care for all the fleshy bits, but gone are the days were putting a few bits on the exterior of a loyalist dread works.

As its own, truly independent faction, they can do so much more with chaos, without having to refer back to the 'standard.'

I mean, there are still "regular" chaos dreadnoughts in use by some legions. They don't exclusively use helbrutes. Same goes for most units that both sides get (bikes, all the rhino chassis, even land speeders/attack bikes are still used as-is by some legions).

Chaos space marines aren't all corrupted by demons.

Thanks for saying this so I didn't have to. Ave Dominus Nox.

This isn't remotely proof that old marines aren't going away. The only proof - and I mean the only proof, I don't care if the shout it from the rooftops that old marines aren't going away, it doesn't matter a bit - is if they come out with a range of new old marine kits. As long as that doesn't happen, the get rid of old marines plan is very much still in action, it's just going ahead slowly and deliberately.

yukishiro1 wrote:
This isn't remotely proof that old marines aren't going away. The only proof - and I mean the only proof, I don't care if the shout it from the rooftops that old marines aren't going away, it doesn't matter a bit - is if they come out with a range of new old marine kits. As long as that doesn't happen, the get rid of old marines plan is very much still in action, it's just going ahead slowly and deliberately.

As pro-first born as I am, I must say the initial release of Primaris weren't as bad as I thought they were. Sure I only own 3 and ETB ones at that, but painting them made life a hell of a lot easier. I'm not sure that'll follow through to the newer models like the Bladeguard and the like, the clean basic lines of the initial Primaris are gone.

I never cared for the aesthetic of the Reavers aesthetically but honestly, the entire range should get Primarised. I realize this is exactly what GW want and likely happening anyway but having my Primaris next to my entire army of Marines dating back to 1990's the Primaris models are just better models. They make my other (scant and old) factions look like 1980's music and shoulder pads.

Sure Squatting your whole $5000 collection is sucky, I'm not trying to argue against that. I *do* think they should keep support around for the older models, even if just at a basic level. But honestly if they Squat my Firstborn, look a Counts-As army. I'll call them Runt Primaris or something. But as an update to the product line? They aren't bad.

Now just re-assign whoever designed the ATV and the Justicar, please.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I think the truely vast amounts of plastic marines means they will be around for at least a few decades.

My guess is classic marines will go away when GW decides to launch SM 3.0 making all primaris armies obsolete and forcing SM players to re-buy their army again

Well, I plan to play old-school Marines with 2W for my BA in the near future eagerly waiting for the release of the codex.
In a BA army, the signature units like DC and Baal Preds are a must have.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I plan to play old-school Marines with 2W for my BA in the near future eagerly waiting for the release of the codex.
In a BA army, the signature units like DC and Baal Preds are a must have.

And I think Space Wolf Grey Hunters are going to compare nicely to intercessors. loosing out on some shooting but having superior melee.

BrianDavion wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I plan to play old-school Marines with 2W for my BA in the near future eagerly waiting for the release of the codex.
In a BA army, the signature units like DC and Baal Preds are a must have.

And I think Space Wolf Grey Hunters are going to compare nicely to intercessors. loosing out on some shooting but having superior melee.

Primaris Marines will not have room in my BA to be played in the near future.
They just don't fit.

OP lacks foresight to a worrying degree

They discontinued:

Praetorians
Mordians
Valhallans
Atillans
Armageddon Steel Legion
Vostroyans
Tallarn

Catachans might be the next to go, as the Cadians can fit the whole PDF substitute quite well. No, I won't count Made-To-Order, as preventing an army from being discontinued.

If these can be discontinued, then other armies can also be discontinued. The Orks lost their Wartraks, the Necrons lost their Pariahs, Crimson Fists lost Captain Cortez (unforgivable), eventually other kits will be Webstore only, and phased out from there.

GW is doing pineapple pen with Space Marines and Primaris, albeit very slowly.

I have a Space Marine. I have a Primaris. Ugh, Adeptus Astartes.

Tycho wrote:

They’ve all but told us Cawl will make/has already made Traitor Legion Primaris,

Where's that?

We have numerous sources saying Bile will have some sort of answer, but I haven't seen anything suggesting Cawl has/will make traitor marines. That makes even less sense than the original fluff for the loyal Primaris. That said, I know there's Cawl stuff I haven't read so maybe it's in there? What's the source for that assumption?

The Guilliman books. Cawl keeps begging to be allowed to make Traitor Pimaris, Guilliman says no, and if Cawl does Guilliman will kill him for it. Then they let it drop in this awkward way that kind of implies Cawl already did followed by Grandpapa Smurt admitting he doesn't trust Cawl (Ergo its just a matter of time)....

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I plan to play old-school Marines with 2W for my BA in the near future eagerly waiting for the release of the codex.
In a BA army, the signature units like DC and Baal Preds are a must have.

Uuh. Your group only has marines who also plays old marines　same way? As no way just playing them as 2w is balanced now. Even with all marine group that would break　balance

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Then how did tacs gw 2W? It has nothing to do with absorbing chaos energy, it's just gw making all marines equal. 2W Chosen are csm answer to primaris: same number of wounds, attacks, cc weapons in addition to guns, and a greater selection of available weapons.

I was talking the CSM going to 2W not the loyalist.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

And I think Space Wolf Grey Hunters are going to compare nicely to intercessors. loosing out on some shooting but having superior melee.

They might as well have put Space Wolf markings on the Assault Intercessors. Blood Claw/ Grey Hunter is written all over them.

Breton wrote:
They might as well have put Space Wolf markings on the Assault Intercessors. Blood Claw/ Grey Hunter is written all over them.

That's not *UN*-true... but my Blood Angels have also been waiting patiently for Assault Intercessors since Primaris first appeared. I had a feeling they'd be coming.

 Super Ready wrote:

That's not *UN*-true... but my Blood Angels have also been waiting patiently for Assault Intercessors since Primaris first appeared. I had a feeling they'd be coming.

They're not Jumpy enough. I can't believe they made assault intercessors and didn't give them jump packs or the option for them.

Well, we'll see what the Codex/supplement brings, but if anything I'd bet on a new type of Inceptor. We've not had jump-pack troops for aaaaages now.

The Guilliman books. Cawl keeps begging to be allowed to make Traitor Pimaris, Guilliman says no, and if Cawl does Guilliman will kill him for it. Then they let it drop in this awkward way that kind of implies Cawl already did followed by Grandpapa Smurt admitting he doesn't trust Cawl (Ergo its just a matter of time)....

Which books? Dark Imperium and Plague War? Because as I recall there's maybe one quick section where it's mentioned Cawl would want to try one of the original Legions (who eventually went traitor) but that's really not at all the same as saying "Cawl is gonna make traitor Primaris!" It's an awfully big leap imo. Even for this setting. Especially since Chaos has Bile who is much more likely to have an answer. Or they can just be lazy and say "Chaos Magic", "Warp Exposure", something, something, dark side, and now CSM are bigger. lol

And no one trusts Cawl. That's the beauty of Cawl. His own people don't even trust him.

I too think the jury on firstborn is still out.

If space marines are GW's bestselling faction, why not just introduce both flavours of marines as equally valid? Primaris for the fans of movie marines and people new to the hobby, and firstborn to us old beards who wax nostalgic about running a 100% beakies marine army..

The only way I see firstborn getting squatted is if they stop selling.. And given just much Horus Heresy has been given sporlight, we will see when that happens. Its possible that GW keeps the firstborn around just to please Horus Heresy players who might prefer a bulk of their legion to be plastic instead of resin.

Its the success of HH that will determine the fate of firstborn more than anything at this point.

This is where I'm placing my bets on.. which is why I'm going to make sure that my firstborn army is also HH compatible as much as possible.

Breton wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

That's not *UN*-true... but my Blood Angels have also been waiting patiently for Assault Intercessors since Primaris first appeared. I had a feeling they'd be coming.

They're not Jumpy enough. I can't believe they made assault intercessors and didn't give them jump packs or the option for them.

Probably be stuck as a completely new Primaris unit for that.

 Crusaderobr wrote:
Anyone who thought Primaris was going to " replace " regular Marines, or that regular Marines were going to phase out, well hopefully you all can see that it is simply not true

Well, this sounds like pandering fanboyism. Because Geedubs hasn't phased out tons of other models? GW wants to sell more kits; it's how they make money. That's understandable, but it is obnoxious if you spent hundreds of dollars and hundreds of hours on a set of models, only to be told that they're no longer valid for the hobby and that you have to spend hundreds more dollars and hundreds more hours to keep participating.

As others have pointed out, the decision to keep old marine models in the game (for now) is a response to customer backlash. You're either an apologist or engaging in magical thinking if you imagine that the company will continue making rules support for miniatures they don't sell any longer.

I'm entirely convinced First Born will be gone next edition.

Hear me out.

GW has a lot of standard SM kits. More over they have a lot of money in the molds. So they need to move kits and they also need to make their money back, and what's the fastest way to do that? Well, sell an absolute fuckload of kits.

And they do that by buffing them.

We know for a fact that GW has no problem using rules as a tool to motivate sales, via making sure that new units / specific units are strong enough that they heavily out sell everything else. So making standard marines as good or better than Primaris at a point-for-point level ensures that they'll be able to move a lot of product for the duration of the edition.

After that they can retire the molds, and the entire mini-marine line, having sold off their substantial backend and having gotten their money's worth out of the molds.

 morganfreeman wrote:
I'm entirely convinced First Born will be gone next edition.

We heard that last edition.

Nah, last edition the more common opinion was that this edition would focus on Primaris with Firstborn being shunted into the background, and then removed or pushed into Legends next go around.

It wouldn't have been particularly surprising if they had gone faster and dropped Firstborn into Legends with 9th edition, but few people thought it was likely.

 insaniak wrote:
Nah, last edition the more common opinion was that this edition would focus on Primaris with Firstborn being shunted into the background, and then removed or pushed into Legends next go around.

It wouldn't have been particularly surprising if they had gone faster and dropped Firstborn into Legends with 9th edition, but few people thought it was likely.

Oh I bet you I could find some posts to that effect.

Not going to bother atm, just sayin.

Hence my use of the word 'few' rather than 'no'...

 insaniak wrote:
Hence my use of the word 'few' rather than 'no'...

Fair, fair.

Although, I did say that I heard it, not that everyone was saying it.

My tinfoil hat theory is that this is the last edition for mini marines.

They get brought in line with primaris in terms of wounds/ increased range and very similair point cost eroding the difference between the two. People get to use their mini marines with all the OPness of the current rules paradigm, realising they are basically the same thing as intercessors... GW announces that primaris are "space marines" to cut bloat and axes old marines for the new 10th edition with the primaris being in all intents and purposes a basic space marine and the word primaris ceases to exist. And it gets sort of forgotten about in the fluff..

they're not upranging boltguns, the evidance against that is pretty strong.

Re: OP topic.

True. See: Berzerkers. Eventually we all know it will be replaced, but they dont seem to be in any big rush.

Also see: all elder aspect warrior fans.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Sisters survived when they were mail order AND metal only - I think the truely vast amounts of plastic marines means they will be around for at least a few decades.

The difference being that Sisters are a separate army, rather than a massive increase to an already bloated one.

-b-

This time around, I'm on the bet firstborn are gone next edition guess. If not entirely, at least in legends status.

-b-

In response to the lost model values when mini-marines stop being supported, you might be expecting a bit too much.
Assuming a shorter 3 year 9th edition, we'll have had 6 years of notice to read the writing on the walls.
If you bought a box right as Primaris arrived, most equate to less than $1 a month by the time we get to 10th edition, capping at $1.5 for a Stormraven.
That's if you're using 2020 retail prices for individual units (aka not 2017, discounted, or set prices).
We obviously want as much value as we can wring out of our minis, but that's a reasonable rate even if you're playing one game a month.

That cost/month value only gets better the longer you've had each kit and duration of 9th.
Heck. Even if you bought a kit today, most would still be okay but pushing it in the value department.

-CF

 Insectum7 wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
I'm entirely convinced First Born will be gone next edition.

We heard that last edition.

Legend state is certainly an option.
In the meanwhile, Legend is a legal option for GW to shift the game leaving models and units no longer produced behind.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
I'm entirely convinced First Born will be gone next edition.

We heard that last edition.

Legend state is certainly an option.
In the meanwhile, Legend is a legal option for GW to shift the game leaving models and units no longer produced behind.

We'll see. GW seems to be putting in a lot of effort to repackage them all.

The fact that primaris WAS released and are better then old marines from day1 indicated that old marines ARE going away, noone knows when and that should be the debate.

Had they instead made primaris rulesand stats in the same way they have done different versions of Stormcasts in AoS, noone would belive or think that old marines was beeing removed.

GW: Sept. 1 2020: If you’re playing Warhammer 40,000, you need a plan to kill Space Marines. With all fully fledged Adeptus Astartes going to 2 Wounds, tabletops are in for a considerable shake-up – and we’re here to ensure that you come out on top. Behold, the top 9 units for killing Space Marines!

How many of these top units can you field in your army?
Guilty conscience?

Not very much.

If you play Space Marines, heavy bolters and Bladeguard.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
The fact that primaris WAS released and are better then old marines from day1 indicated that old marines ARE going away, noone knows when and that should be the debate.

Had they instead made primaris rulesand stats in the same way they have done different versions of Stormcasts in AoS, noone would belive or think that old marines was beeing removed.

With original/classic/true marines going to 2W, Primaris lost their biggest advantage over them. Imo the equipment options put the classics squarely ahead in most circumstances. Vanguard well outperform Assault Intercessors for example, and for the moment standard Assault Squads have the advantage too, with sergeant equipment, Flamers/Plasma Pistols, Eviscerators and Jump Packs. We'll see what the codex brings though.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
The fact that primaris WAS released and are better then old marines from day1 indicated that old marines ARE going away, noone knows when and that should be the debate.

Had they instead made primaris rulesand stats in the same way they have done different versions of Stormcasts in AoS, noone would belive or think that old marines was beeing removed.

With original/classic/true marines going to 2W, Primaris lost their biggest advantage over them. Imo the equipment options put the classics squarely ahead in most circumstances. Vanguard well outperform Assault Intercessors for example, and for the moment standard Assault Squads have the advantage too, with sergeant equipment, Flamers/Plasma Pistols, Eviscerators and Jump Packs. We'll see what the codex brings though.

Indeed, old-school Marines would get the lead when compared with Primaris.
Laughable.

^By "Laughable" you mean, "The way it should be."

It’s called “having their cake and eating it”. Keep selling Firstborn while the moulds have tens of thousands of presses left in them and it avoids nerd backlashes. Keep making new Primaris models. Print money.

 Insectum7 wrote:
With original/classic/true marines going to 2W, Primaris lost their biggest advantage over them. Imo the equipment options put the classics squarely ahead in most circumstances. Vanguard well outperform Assault Intercessors for example, and for the moment standard Assault Squads have the advantage too, with sergeant equipment, Flamers/Plasma Pistols, Eviscerators and Jump Packs. We'll see what the codex brings though.

Ideas as to why have already been floated.
Another is as a test to see if buffs will result in more firstborn profits.
Yet another could be as a means of offloading product with enough time between the sale and more acceptably retiring those kits.

I'm 100% with you, before seeing all the changes in the codex, the wounds parity and options pretty much reverse some Prims to obsolescence. At the same time, options are a flimsy pedestal to stand on. Equivalent Primaris options can be added at any time.

Tycho wrote:

The Guilliman books. Cawl keeps begging to be allowed to make Traitor Pimaris, Guilliman says no, and if Cawl does Guilliman will kill him for it. Then they let it drop in this awkward way that kind of implies Cawl already did followed by Grandpapa Smurt admitting he doesn't trust Cawl (Ergo its just a matter of time)....

Which books? Dark Imperium and Plague War? Because as I recall there's maybe one quick section where it's mentioned Cawl would want to try one of the original Legions (who eventually went traitor) but that's really not at all the same as saying "Cawl is gonna make traitor Primaris!" It's an awfully big leap imo. Even for this setting. Especially since Chaos has Bile who is much more likely to have an answer. Or they can just be lazy and say "Chaos Magic", "Warp Exposure", something, something, dark side, and now CSM are bigger. lol

And no one trusts Cawl. That's the beauty of Cawl. His own people don't even trust him.

I read them back to back so it's hard to say which but that's the section. There was something about the way they described Cawl - not the dialogue but the scene setting/set direction/whatever you want to call it - that made me think "Too late! He already did it!". I just had this image in my head of a little kid walking out of a devastated flour covered kitchen into the living room asking his mom if he could make them all pancakes and then being told no - this panicked "What do I do now" look.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^By "Laughable" you mean, "The way it should be."

Indeed, in AoS the heavy armored models have 2W too.
So its a logical consequence.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^By "Laughable" you mean, "The way it should be."

Indeed, in AoS the heavy armored models have 2W too.
So its a logical consequence.

Oh I don't care about the 2W, just the fact that Primaris take their rightful place as inferior marines.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
The fact that primaris WAS released and are better then old marines from day1 indicated that old marines ARE going away, noone knows when and that should be the debate.

Had they instead made primaris rulesand stats in the same way they have done different versions of Stormcasts in AoS, noone would belive or think that old marines was beeing removed.

With original/classic/true marines going to 2W, Primaris lost their biggest advantage over them. Imo the equipment options put the classics squarely ahead in most circumstances. Vanguard well outperform Assault Intercessors for example, and for the moment standard Assault Squads have the advantage too, with sergeant equipment, Flamers/Plasma Pistols, Eviscerators and Jump Packs. We'll see what the codex brings though.

One edition too late.
Had old marines and primaris been at 2W as early as 8th index stage,(or primaris at 1W) noone would have given primaris any toughts other then: ohh GW is trying out new designs, inntresting.

 Argive wrote:
My tinfoil hat theory is that this is the last edition for mini marines.

They get brought in line with primaris in terms of wounds/ increased range and very similair point cost eroding the difference between the two. People get to use their mini marines with all the OPness of the current rules paradigm, realising they are basically the same thing as intercessors... GW announces that primaris are "space marines" to cut bloat and axes old marines for the new 10th edition with the primaris being in all intents and purposes a basic space marine and the word primaris ceases to exist. And it gets sort of forgotten about in the fluff..

Except they're not. Tacs have a Heavy/Special, "mini-marines" have assault and vaguard vets, Primaris just got Melta and a little Las after being (mostly)limited to Plas and Dakka. Old Marines probably are going away. But not until the archetypical units for all the basics and chapter-specific flavors are figured out. This means Jump Assaults for everybody, but especially for BA and SW, Bikers for WS, SW, and DA, Termies for DA and IF, Sternguard for UM, etc

Its not going to be hard to make a Redemptor with a Lightning Claw - Bjorn
Likewise Murderfang/Libby/Furiouso/DC Dreads
Indomitus Cap? Aggressor? with a Thunderhammer? - Lysander is kind of tricky yet, but a TH, Heavy Bolt Pistol, SS Indomitus Cap isn't a hard starting point for Lysander
Aggressor with Flamers is an easy base for Vulkan
A new Outrider kit for Korsarro Khan is also easy to imagine on the horizon
We already have Shrike, but nothing for him to hop around with - and he'd make a good base for Dante/Sanguinor
We need Cassius to turn Primaris as well, not for UM, but for Deathwatch.
Indomitus Cap for Belial is easy.
Sammael is completely unique.
Azrael is also pretty easy - The original Primaris Cap with a Watcher in the Dark holding the winged helmet

I don't think we've seen the base unit the "replacement" Baal Predator will be.
Most of the Rhino Chassis have been cross-referenced by the Impulsor - Bellicatus kind of replacing Whirlwind and/or Hunter/Stalker (whichever one has the missiles) the Comms Array is basically a Vindicator, the dakka stubber = HB Razorbacks.
We're missing the Predator no transport Tank.
Land Speeders - This might be Inceptors and you just have to squint to see it.
Flyers/Aircraft - Air Superiority, Ground Attack, and Assault Gunship.

The process will probalby hit GK/DW last, they may be expected to use up the last few (relatively speaking compared to GW volume) model kits.
Edit to add/refine/clarify:

There are two checklists I think have to be finished before they more than soft-squat - as the term is - Old Marines.

The bread and butter units/roles like the afore mentioned Assault Marines, and Aircraft

And the Four Elements. If you imagine Flamers/Las/Plas/Grav as Earth Wind, Fire and Water - each element kind of takes a turn being the flavor of the month in various editions. They're going to have to check those boxes as well.

Right now flame is pretty much limited to Aggressors, Melta to Eradicators, and Las to Eliminators. That's going to have to pass around a little more - Plas is covered between Inceptors/Hellblasters in two FOC slots. Melta is going to have to hit the FA or Elite, Flame is going to have to hit FA or HS, and Grav is going to have to hit both.

Breton wrote:

 Argive wrote:
My tinfoil hat theory is that this is the last edition for mini marines.

They get brought in line with primaris in terms of wounds/ increased range and very similair point cost eroding the difference between the two. People get to use their mini marines with all the OPness of the current rules paradigm, realising they are basically the same thing as intercessors... GW announces that primaris are "space marines" to cut bloat and axes old marines for the new 10th edition with the primaris being in all intents and purposes a basic space marine and the word primaris ceases to exist. And it gets sort of forgotten about in the fluff..

Except they're not. Tacs have a Heavy/Special, "mini-marines" have assault and vaguard vets, Primaris just got Melta and a little Las after being (mostly)limited to Plas and Dakka. Old Marines probably are going away. But not until the archetypical units for all the basics and chapter-specific flavors are figured out. This means Jump Assaults for everybody, but especially for BA and SW, Bikers for WS, SW, and DA, Termies for DA and IF, Sternguard for UM, etc

Its not going to be hard to make a Redemptor with a Lightning Claw - Bjorn
Likewise Murderfang/Libby/Furiouso/DC Dreads
Indomitus Cap? Aggressor? with a Thunderhammer? - Lysander is kind of tricky yet, but a TH, Heavy Bolt Pistol, SS Indomitus Cap isn't a hard starting point for Lysander
Aggressor with Flamers is an easy base for Vulkan
A new Outrider kit for Korsarro Khan is also easy to imagine on the horizon
We already have Shrike, but nothing for him to hop around with.
We need Cassius to turn Primaris as well, not for UM, but for Deathwatch.
Indomitus Cap for Belial is easy.
Sammael is completely unique.
Azrael is also pretty easy - The original Primaris Cap with a Watcher in the Dark holding the winged helmet

I don't think we've seen the base unit the "replacement" Baal Predator will be.
Most of the Rhino Chassis have been cross-referenced by the Impulsor - Bellicatus kind of replacing Whirlwind and/or Hunter/Stalker (whichever one has the missiles) the Comms Array is basically a Vindicator, the dakka stubber = HB Razorbacks.
We're missing the Predator no transport Tank.
Land Speeders - This might be Inceptors and you just have to squint to see it.
Flyers/Aircraft - Air Superiority, Ground Attack, and Assault Gunship.

The process will probalby hit GK/DW last, they may be expected to use up the last few (relatively speaking compared to GW volume) model kits.

Argive's got the name conversion off. Space Marine is an overly generic name for this type of product. Just like all their naming changes recently, they're going to use more unique names for the genre.

Options are a fragile difference between the general Primaris and Mini-marines. It certainly favors the first born right now but any of the GW's update methods can quickly add options to rules followed by a new kit/upgrade, or visa versa.

I'm struggling to understand the relevance of your conversion list. Not a dig, I just don't get what it has to do with the near-homogenization through rules of both types.

For the missing unit list, speeder and predator equivalents are already leaked. GW probably wants a new kit to entice sales, but they could go the route of just claiming the former fliers are being piloted by Primaris. The Interceptor is probably the best suited to this, but a big stretch might work for the other two. Faction specific Primaris units can be held off until their respective supplements are released. Some of the others are needed, but not every unit and option has to have a direct equivalent. So long as they have Infantry and vehicle-borne AT/AI in both ranged and melee forms, all HQ positions, and AA + Beyond LoS capable units they can fill the holes afterward.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
The fact that primaris WAS released and are better then old marines from day1 indicated that old marines ARE going away, noone knows when and that should be the debate.

actually when Primaris where first released they where widely considered to be "not so hot" as they where over pointed for what they did.

BrianDavion wrote:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
The fact that primaris WAS released and are better then old marines from day1 indicated that old marines ARE going away, noone knows when and that should be the debate.

actually when Primaris where first released they where widely considered to be "not so hot" as they where over pointed for what they did.

GW pulled a reverse Riot. Make something "bad" so people don't make a fuss. Marines, in general, were extremely weak at the start of 8th (an anomaly all on it's own), and then Primaris became better in every regard with SM 2.0. Almost like GW wanted to introduce the replacement as "bad" so people wouldn't make a fuss, and then make them an objective upgrade later on when detractors would be shouted down by White Knights, pointing out they didn't complain before.

I have a question for our AoS players who happen to play WH40K too.

Did AoS really Squat your WHFB armies?

I was in the process of starting a Bretonnian force just as AoS happened so I never even finished making my knights up (i've got a couple of squads of Men at Arms and Archers painted).

Did AoS mean your WHFB armies never saw the table again? I remember talk of people wanting to just use their <fill in blank> army as a <fill in blank> army in a "Counts as" way.

Even if the same happened to the Mini-Marines would it not still be feasible to table them in some manner in the Primaris universe?

Kayback wrote:
I have a question for our AoS players who happen to play WH40K too.

Did AoS really Squat your WHFB armies?

I was in the process of starting a Bretonnian force just as AoS happened so I never even finished making my knights up (i've got a couple of squads of Men at Arms and Archers painted).

Did AoS mean your WHFB armies never saw the table again? I remember talk of people wanting to just use their <fill in blank> army as a <fill in blank> army in a "Counts as" way.

Even if the same happened to the Mini-Marines would it not still be feasible to table them in some manner in the Primaris universe?

Depends on the army. High Elves got removed entirely as they were along with Tomb Kings. Others saw models phased out completely leaving entire old world factions without enough units to field a force. Then the rest was split up between disparate factions.

I have quite a collection of Dark Elf and High Elf models, but the high elf models are at best "counts as" in AoS, and the Dark Elf models are divided between Daughters of Khaine and the cold leftovers in Cities of Sigmar. Currently planning on using my high elves as "counts as" Cities of Sigmar army.

Basically it is kinda impossible to field an old world army as a 1 to 1 representation in AoS due to how factions were split up or eradicated.

Do SM get more love because they are the best selling faction or are they the best selling faction because they get more love (From GW)

Also can it possibly be fair in the long terms that GW give SM such a large selection of units to choose from and some armies are much more narrow.

If they aren’t careful 40K will just become SM vs SM most of the time, if it isn’t already

Cap'n Failboat wrote:


I'm struggling to understand the relevance of your conversion list. Not a dig, I just don't get what it has to do with the near-homogenization through rules of both types.

For the missing unit list, speeder and predator equivalents are already leaked. GW probably wants a new kit to entice sales, but they could go the route of just claiming the former fliers are being piloted by Primaris. The Interceptor is probably the best suited to this, but a big stretch might work for the other two. Faction specific Primaris units can be held off until their respective supplements are released. Some of the others are needed, but not every unit and option has to have a direct equivalent. So long as they have Infantry and vehicle-borne AT/AI in both ranged and melee forms, all HQ positions, and AA + Beyond LoS capable units they can fill the holes afterward.

I don't see them getting rid of old marines until the iconic things that were the reason people played their given chapter are new marine. The list is an off the top of my head list of things that could/would/should qualify as iconic for SM in general, or a chapter in specific - meaning until that list has a new marine corollary, I think they're unlikely to cancel the old marine.

I'll be the first to say GW isn't always the brightest bulb in the box, but I hope they'd not be foolish enough to tell people that after years of not being able to put a Primaris in a Razorback, that same Primaris are now turning and burning from the cramped cockpit of a Stormtalon.

Sub-faction specific units are absolutely going to be held until their supplement releases. Not a doubt in anyone's mind of that. I expect even basic but iconic units could be spread out over supplement releases (i.e. jumpy punchy Primaris released with the BA Supplement) so there's a BA specific Pimaris Assault Marine kit, and a generic all chapters Primaris Assault Marine kit The Marine ATV Attack Bike thing could be in a holding pattern for Dark Angels supplement release. Outriders + ATV + Speeder-thing works out pretty similar to the Ravenwing Attack Squadron of the past.

mrFickle wrote:
Do SM get more love because they are the best selling faction or are they the best selling faction because they get more love (From GW)

Also can it possibly be fair in the long terms that GW give SM such a large selection of units to choose from and some armies are much more narrow.

If they aren’t careful 40K will just become SM vs SM most of the time, if it isn’t already

SM are easy and more forgiving to new players. GW wants to bring in new blood for fresh money from Timmy's Mothers Boyfriend's credit card, so they can play for a few weeks then quit, freeing up space for Billy to come in.

SM are pushed to new players, so are the most popular and best selling faction, so get new releases because they know they will make money like it's going out of style.

Meanwhile, armies like Eldar or Orks are a much harder sell, so GW don't bother supporting them, leading to even fewer people playing them. Just look at the time between releases for SoB and Space Marines. One is measured in decades, the other in weeks.

Kayback wrote:
I have a question for our AoS players who happen to play WH40K too.

Did AoS really Squat your WHFB armies?

I was in the process of starting a Bretonnian force just as AoS happened so I never even finished making my knights up (i've got a couple of squads of Men at Arms and Archers painted).

Did AoS mean your WHFB armies never saw the table again? I remember talk of people wanting to just use their <fill in blank> army as a <fill in blank> army in a "Counts as" way.

Even if the same happened to the Mini-Marines would it not still be feasible to table them in some manner in the Primaris universe?

I haven't played a game of WHFB since they squatted BOTH my armies.

I had a Bretonnian force. I had a Tomb Kings Army. I never wanted to use my Bretonians as something else. I've seen people who wanted to use Brets as Vampire Counts in a Red Duke kind of way but they wanted to play VC because of the VC rules, and I played Brets for their rules. The problem wasn't they squatted the models the problem was they squatted the rules.

Breton wrote:
. The problem wasn't they squatted the models the problem was they squatted the rules.

Would that still apply to Firstborn? Nah, they're just Primaris standing far away.

I'd forgotten they completely eliminated the Tomb Kings (and High Elves) that annoyed me too. Years ago I had a great idea for an Undead Cadian army and when I went in to buy some Tomb Kings to kitbash the store owner looked at me like I lived under a rock having missed the news.

I'm of the opinion that so long as the SM exist you can always use Firstborn in a friendly or FLGS game setting. Sure it sucks for competitive play having to buy a new SM army just because, but even if Firstborn are moved to Legends/Squatted I don't see people not still fielding the actual models.

 Super Ready wrote:
I saw a pretty good counter-theory on here, that it's part of the longer-term plan to still phase them out, and bringing oldmarines up to 2W is just the next step.
The idea being that by the time 10th rolls around, GW can say "you know what, there's really not much difference in these units, we're rolling them into similar units.

I'm not entirely sure that, if this is true, it will come to pass all that smoothly - there'd have to be some more homogenisation come to pass first. Tacs and Intercessors are fairly easily lined up - but there are still a lot of differences between Assault Marines/Inceptors, and Devastators/Eliminators.

Think about it like this. GW has a stock of mini marine stuff to sell that isn't selling but they don't ever want to make it again. So they are just selling out their stocks. Their rules will likely be good for this edition but they will never make a non primaris kit again.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Think about it like this. GW has a stock of mini marine stuff to sell that isn't selling but they don't ever want to make it again. So they are just selling out their stocks. Their rules will likely be good for this edition but they will never make a non primaris kit again.

What advantage exactly are they getting from this over just moving all firstborn to direct order only?

Breton wrote:

I don't see them getting rid of old marines until the iconic things that were the reason people played their given chapter are new marine. The list is an off the top of my head list of things that could/would/should qualify as iconic for SM in general, or a chapter in specific - meaning until that list has a new marine corollary, I think they're unlikely to cancel the old marine.

I'll be the first to say GW isn't always the brightest bulb in the box, but I hope they'd not be foolish enough to tell people that after years of not being able to put a Primaris in a Razorback, that same Primaris are now turning and burning from the cramped cockpit of a Stormtalon.

Sub-faction specific units are absolutely going to be held until their supplement releases. Not a doubt in anyone's mind of that. I expect even basic but iconic units could be spread out over supplement releases (i.e. jumpy punchy Primaris released with the BA Supplement) so there's a BA specific Pimaris Assault Marine kit, and a generic all chapters Primaris Assault Marine kit The Marine ATV Attack Bike thing could be in a holding pattern for Dark Angels supplement release. Outriders + ATV + Speeder-thing works out pretty similar to the Ravenwing Attack Squadron of the past.

I see what you were saying now. Thank you for clearing it up for me. Yea, many of the chapter unique units won't take much work to Primarisize, but 3-5 years should be enough to get them done. For the more outlandish ones, I'm a lot less confident that they will replace all of them, mostly because they're relegating the separate codex chapters to supplements again.

LOL. I did qualify the flier statement with it being a big stretch. Know no Fear did have Primaris riding in a Stormraven, but I concede to your point. I wouldn't have been too bothered, but I can imagine a majority having issue with it. Either way, a pair of fliers isn't a tough ask.

I'm with you on the BA and Assault equivalents, and the non-Indomitus outriders. You know they're adding stuff in October and I'd guess that at least the ATV or Speeder, if not both show up with the codex. I would just say the ATV (to supplement outriders) but the Speeder's been pseudo leaked (ready) for longer. Then the predator equivalent out before BA, so that the Baal can come with them.

Cap'n Failboat wrote:


I see what you were saying now. Thank you for clearing it up for me. Yea, many of the chapter unique units won't take much work to Primarisize, but 3-5 years should be enough to get them done. For the more outlandish ones, I'm a lot less confident that they will replace all of them, mostly because they're relegating the separate codex chapters to supplements again.

LOL. I did qualify the flier statement with it being a big stretch. Know no Fear did have Primaris riding in a Stormraven, but I concede to your point. I wouldn't have been too bothered, but I can imagine a majority having issue with it. Either way, a pair of fliers isn't a tough ask.

I'm with you on the BA and Assault equivalents, and the non-Indomitus outriders. You know they're adding stuff in October and I'd guess that at least the ATV or Speeder, if not both show up with the codex. I would just say the ATV (to supplement outriders) but the Speeder's been pseudo leaked (ready) for longer. Then the predator equivalent out before BA, so that the Baal can come with them.

Some of them might never "Cross the Rubicon Primaris" as GW likes to call it. In the first place, if a couple minor characters die, it helps "Grimdark" how dangerous the surgery is. Likewise it gives them a fluffy reason to replace IP they want to swap out. Dante is something like 1100 years old. Not that he's who I'm thinking of. Vulkan and Lysander both stayed old school while their chapter got a new Primaris hotness. Vulkan was screaming Flamer Aggressor holding a spear. When they didn't cross his Rubicon I started hoping his insurance was paid up. Lysander is the trickiest one with Termie Armor, zero shooting and a Thunderhammer. The easiest one to dump is probably Cassius. He's 800 years old, his face is falling off of his steel skull, and even though they keep making a new Primaris chaplain whose face is falling off his steel skull, it's not been Cassius. UM Already have a ton of Specials, Deathwatch will need more. Exit Cassius the unplanned dinner entre for a lucky Hive Tyrant, enter Castor and Pollux the two DW characters - one captain, one chaplain/librarian/lietuenant who will rise from his ashes more determined than ever to uphold his legacy. Or something.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Think about it like this. GW has a stock of mini marine stuff to sell that isn't selling but they don't ever want to make it again. So they are just selling out their stocks. Their rules will likely be good for this edition but they will never make a non primaris kit again.

What advantage exactly are they getting from this over just moving all firstborn to direct order only?

Just a thought but this is a perfect opportunity to create buzz with a new codex coming out. After that they will just go to a direct order only or something similar.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Think about it like this. GW has a stock of mini marine stuff to sell that isn't selling but they don't ever want to make it again. So they are just selling out their stocks. Their rules will likely be good for this edition but they will never make a non primaris kit again.

Which is irrelevant if GW keeps non primaris units in the codexes. Dark eldar and sisters didn't get a release for ages and still have been viable armies. In fact I wouldn't even want to buy new stuff, SM roster is already wide and has tons of options for any possibile kind of lists. Even without primaris.

Breton wrote:

Some of them might never "Cross the Rubicon Primaris" as GW likes to call it. In the first place, if a couple minor characters die, it helps "Grimdark" how dangerous the surgery is. Likewise it gives them a fluffy reason to replace IP they want to swap out. Dante is something like 1100 years old. Not that he's who I'm thinking of. Vulkan and Lysander both stayed old school while their chapter got a new Primaris hotness. Vulkan was screaming Flamer Aggressor holding a spear. When they didn't cross his Rubicon I started hoping his insurance was paid up. Lysander is the trickiest one with Termie Armor, zero shooting and a Thunderhammer. The easiest one to dump is probably Cassius. He's 800 years old, his face is falling off of his steel skull, and even though they keep making a new Primaris chaplain whose face is falling off his steel skull, it's not been Cassius. UM Already have a ton of Specials, Deathwatch will need more. Exit Cassius the unplanned dinner entre for a lucky Hive Tyrant, enter Castor and Pollux the two DW characters - one captain, one chaplain/librarian/lietuenant who will rise from his ashes more determined than ever to uphold his legacy. Or something.

It's kind of boring to keep agreeing with you but when someone makes sense, they make sense. What you're saying coincides with much of my thinking. As I've stated elsewhere, and what you've alluded to, there's enough going on in the fluff and time before 10th edition to write the demise of many named characters. The same thing for not every single first born unit having an exact 1-to-1 replacement, both unique ones and generic. So long as they fulfill all the standard roles and have a means for chapter definition, first born can be discontinued. I'd even argue that a few gaps can exist when that occurs, so long as they're filled in decent time.

It will be unfortunate when my firstborn collection becomes obsolete but the oldest stuff I have (about 1/4 of my marines/vehicles) is from ~2003 and they've had a good run.

Honestly Cassius still being alive is one of the worst instances of plot armour in the game. Ultramarines barely make it past 400. The reason Dante and Logan are still kicking is that BA and SW geneseed makes them exceptionally long lived (Being Vampire IN SPAAAAAAAAACE and Werewolves IN SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE!!!!), even for Space Marines.

 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Think about it like this. GW has a stock of mini marine stuff to sell that isn't selling but they don't ever want to make it again. So they are just selling out their stocks. Their rules will likely be good for this edition but they will never make a non primaris kit again.

Which is irrelevant if GW keeps non primaris units in the codexes. Dark eldar and sisters didn't get a release for ages and still have been viable armies. In fact I wouldn't even want to buy new stuff, SM roster is already wide and has tons of options for any possibile kind of lists. Even without primaris.

I'm not going to say it's impossible, but there's a difference with DE/SoB being different factions and having redundant units within the same army. To then have to continuously manage their profiles without the benefit of kit sales lacks justification, much less incentive, for GW to do so. Assuming they dump them in 10th, 3-8 years isn't an entirely unreasonable timeframe to use a kit, and many collections were started well before 8th/Primaris.

If they don't halt mini-marine production & sales within 1 or 2 years, that would make the cost-to-use ratio too bad even for my most generous calculations (which would take a longer, 5-year edition). That's going to be our (or at least my) trigger to retract a 10th ed prediction of non-primaris' end.

Cap'n Failboat wrote:

Assuming they dump them in 10th, 3-8 years isn't an entirely unreasonable timeframe to use a kit, and many collections were started well before 8th/Primaris.

A kit certainly not, but an entire army? I was ok with GW putting to legend old big gunz and buggies/wartrakks since they were just a few units in an entire roster. Mek gunz and the new buggies vs big gunz and old buggies are basically like primaris vs classic marines, except in the second case we're talking about dozens of kits and entire collections of models that worth thousand of points.

So yeah, 3-8 years before squatting an entire army seems very unreasonable to me. GW could easily stop producing older kits but keeping the rules in the codexes, orks got their Big mek with KFF in the latest supplement despite the model has been OOP since a decade. It's not a huge effort to keep 30ish datasheets updated. GW guys don't put much effort in making the game rules anyway And they'd only be 15ish pages to print.

GW maybe thinks it's ok to re-buy the same army over and over again, but if they squat my SW I'd just keep the orks or eventually I'd start a new faction. I honestly don't see any appeal in re-buying the same dudes I already own just with bigger and updated kits.

GW seems to be making a lot of armies in AoS that are made out of 3 units and 4-5 characters.

They could do it with some marines.

 Blackie wrote:
So yeah, 3-8 years before squatting an entire army seems very unreasonable to me.

It's not exactly the same thing, but some factions have certainly had a "soft squat", going this long with nothing more than an index or a White Dwarf "codex" (ugh). Some of them before later being squatted or else shifted elsewhere.
Imperial Agents/Witch Hunters/Inquisitors strike me as the prime example of one that didn't ever really come back - Sisters were definitely another until last year.

So yeah, 3-8 years before squatting an entire army seems very unreasonable to me.

It's not squatting an army though. Not really. You will still have marines. You just won't have old marines. It's removing a model line, not an army. That's partly why it's been called a "soft squat".

Also - to those who say we still need too many equivalents on the Primaris side - I don't think we do. Your old marines get a heavy and a special weapon? Well to quote GW "Guilliman remembers well the effectiveness of mono-tasked units during the Great Crusade". That's the fluff for Hell Blasters. I don't think GW is going to make 1-1 equivalents. I think they're going to make sure the army can essentially do the same things it's always done, but maybe in different ways. So if you're hanging your hat on "I still don't see rules that allow Intercessor squads to take heavy weapons", prepare to be disappointed.

Tycho wrote:
Also - to those who say we still need too many equivalents on the Primaris side - I don't think we do. Your old marines get a heavy and a special weapon? Well to quote GW "Guilliman remembers well the effectiveness of mono-tasked units during the Great Crusade". That's the fluff for Hell Blasters. I don't think GW is going to make 1-1 equivalents. I think they're going to make sure the army can essentially do the same things it's always done, but maybe in different ways. So if you're hanging your hat on "I still don't see rules that allow Intercessor squads to take heavy weapons", prepare to be disappointed.

Yep, 100% agreed. My Blood Angels still miss being able to take a proper Honour Guard with jump packs and variable weapon loadouts, and that was before Primaris even showed up.

 Blackie wrote:

A kit certainly not, but an entire army? I was ok with GW putting to legend old big gunz and buggies/wartrakks since they were just a few units in an entire roster. Mek gunz and the new buggies vs big gunz and old buggies are basically like primaris vs classic marines, except in the second case we're talking about dozens of kits and entire collections of models that worth thousand of points.

So yeah, 3-8 years before squatting an entire army seems very unreasonable to me. GW could easily stop producing older kits but keeping the rules in the codexes, orks got their Big mek with KFF in the latest supplement despite the model has been OOP since a decade. It's not a huge effort to keep 30ish datasheets updated. GW guys don't put much effort in making the game rules anyway And they'd only be 15ish pages to print.

GW maybe thinks it's ok to re-buy the same army over and over again, but if they squat my SW I'd just keep the orks or eventually I'd start a new faction. I honestly don't see any appeal in re-buying the same dudes I already own just with bigger and updated kits.

It's completely fair that you disagree, and the distinction between a handful of kits and an army is an apt one. Each person has their own perspective of value. The connection to having an army being used for as long as possible is completely agreed upon as well. My 3-8 years is if you bought your firstborn between 8th ed start and today. Did you buy the majority/entirety of your army in that timeframe?

-b-

I respect that the whole thing is subjective but what's a fair cost per year/month in your mind? As an example, I'll toss the calcs below.

I spent some time to find a legit pure firstborn list but failed. There was a crazy double spearhead firstborn that totaled $887 but it lacked the infantry to make razorbacks an option (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/791545.page)

Instead, I made a ridiculous list that used no wargear options and the worst point-to-dollar ratio I can find. It was over by 32 pts but came to $919.
Two ridiculous lists get to around $900.
X years of use = cost per month

3 = $25
4 = $18.75
5 = $15
6 = $12.5
7 = $10.71
8 = $9.38

If you bought today and 9e was 3 or 4-years, that's rough. If you bought it all on the day 8e started, the 6 years is a reasonably expected minimum. Obviously, as 9e takes longer and/or you purchase earlier, it becomes less than a Netflix subscription or a couple of meals at a restaurant. The more you play the more value you get too.

Swapping Centurians for Terminators saves $24 and takes 15 more points, multiple times and for other units too. Start adding wargear and you're cutting needed kits quickly. This is also using the 2020 retail price. Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't most $50 kits today $42.5 back in 2017? A while before that they were $35. On top of it all, this isn't taking advantage of Start Collecting type of sets or the widespread 15% off (20% if you got it from Neal, when he was around).

To be clear, I do believe the costs of models are higher than necessary, but I hope this explains where I find the reasonableness in value for time used Blackie.


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Tycho wrote:

So yeah, 3-8 years before squatting an entire army seems very unreasonable to me.

It's not squatting an army though. Not really. You will still have marines. You just won't have old marines. It's removing a model line, not an army. That's partly why it's been called a "soft squat".

Also - to those who say we still need too many equivalents on the Primaris side - I don't think we do. Your old marines get a heavy and a special weapon? Well to quote GW "Guilliman remembers well the effectiveness of mono-tasked units during the Great Crusade". That's the fluff for Hell Blasters. I don't think GW is going to make 1-1 equivalents. I think they're going to make sure the army can essentially do the same things it's always done, but maybe in different ways. So if you're hanging your hat on "I still don't see rules that allow Intercessor squads to take heavy weapons", prepare to be disappointed.

That's not really what we're arguing though. It doesn't matter if the Space Wolves faction still exists, we were discussing what a reasonable value/time would be if most/all his Wolves models were bricked.

I'm not a fan of the Aspect Warrior Marines, but the second point makes sense and I wouldn't be surprised if that was the end result.

Tycho wrote:

So yeah, 3-8 years before squatting an entire army seems very unreasonable to me.

It's not squatting an army though. Not really. You will still have marines. You just won't have old marines. It's removing a model line, not an army. That's partly why it's been called a "soft squat".

It's squatting any full collection of pre 8th models. All of them, not just some units. So yeah, it is squatting an army. Primaris were released only 3 years ago, it's not like squatting armies that haven't been updated since Rogue Trader.

If you think it's ok to re-buy the same army over and over again good for you, I simply disagree with that logic.


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Cap'n Failboat wrote:

I respect that the whole thing is subjective but what's a fair cost per year/month in your mind?

There isn't any. When someone manages to get a collection of thousand of points of models there's no need to spend a single penny per month in order to stay in the hobby. In that case the fair cost per year/month is the amount invested in the rules, nothing else.

If GW releases models that I like I buy them, otherwise pass and keep going with what I already have. Being forced to buy because my army becomes obsolete is something I can't accept, an official model should stay legal forever.

Blackie wrote:

Tycho wrote:

So yeah, 3-8 years before squatting an entire army seems very unreasonable to me.

It's not squatting an army though. Not really. You will still have marines. You just won't have old marines. It's removing a model line, not an army. That's partly why it's been called a "soft squat".

It's squatting any full collection of pre 8th models. All of them, not just some units. So yeah, it is squatting an army. Primaris were released only 3 years ago, it's not like squatting armies that haven't been updated since Rogue Trader.

If you think it's ok to re-buy the same army over and over again good for you, I simply disagree with that logic.

who's re-buying their army? sounds pretty stupid to me
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cap'n Failboat wrote:

I respect that the whole thing is subjective but what's a fair cost per year/month in your mind?

There isn't any. When someone manages to get a collection of thousand of points of models there's no need to spend a single penny per month in order to stay in the hobby. In that case the fair cost per year/month is the amount invested in the rules, nothing else.

If GW releases models that I like I buy them, otherwise pass and keep going with what I already have. Being forced to buy because my army becomes obsolete is something I can't accept, an official model should stay legal forever.

legends are legal forever, so how is this an issue?

Tycho wrote:

So yeah, 3-8 years before squatting an entire army seems very unreasonable to me.

It's not squatting an army though. Not really. You will still have marines. You just won't have old marines. It's removing a model line, not an army. That's partly why it's been called a "soft squat".

Also - to those who say we still need too many equivalents on the Primaris side - I don't think we do. Your old marines get a heavy and a special weapon? Well to quote GW "Guilliman remembers well the effectiveness of mono-tasked units during the Great Crusade". That's the fluff for Hell Blasters. I don't think GW is going to make 1-1 equivalents. I think they're going to make sure the army can essentially do the same things it's always done, but maybe in different ways. So if you're hanging your hat on "I still don't see rules that allow Intercessor squads to take heavy weapons", prepare to be disappointed.

. I say we have too many holes still, but not because Tacs had a special and a heavy.

The special named has to be the face of the franchise so to speak. And he has to be Primaris if they’re going to Legend old marines
I can’t even remember the new guy’s name for IF or Salamanders. Tor something. And I only remember that because it reminded me of the Horus Heresy novel character. He is not yet the face of the franchise.

They need a medium tank. An Impulsor ain’t it.
They need aircraft.
Jump assault infantry. Outriders are here, but jump assault infantry yelling Death From Above is SM iconic.
The attack bike and the speeder are supposedly already in the pipe
Indirect fire artillery/ordnance aren’t needed yet because it’s not a thing yet, but it will be sooner or later.

Breton wrote:
The special named has to be the face of the franchise so to speak. And he has to be Primaris if they’re going to Legend old marines
I can’t even remember the new guy’s name for IF or Salamanders. Tor something. And I only remember that because it reminded me of the Horus Heresy novel character. He is not yet the face of the franchise.

Y'know what, Tor Garadon is the one new Primaris character I don't take issue with. For one, Lysander is a Terminator and there aren't signs of Terminators being squatted just yet - I accept they might be, but there's been not even a whiff of a replacement for them.
Meanwhile, Tor works ever so slightly better in the iconic image of a defensive Fists army. Lysander has no ranged weaponry, so while his Captain aura is useful, it's no more so than any other Captain - and his close combat loadout plus the potential transport cost makes him expensive in comparison. Unless you Deep Strike him, in which case you lose out on a turn or two of that aura.

I'll heartily agree that Dark Angels need a new Azrael, Ezekiel and/or Asmodai way more than they needed Master Lazarus-pit.

 Super Ready wrote:

Y'know what, Tor Garadon is the one new Primaris character I don't take issue with.

It's not about their rules/etc - he's not the "Face Of The Franchise". If you go ask a hundred players to name an Imperial Fist - How many name Lysander how many name Tor Garadon? Garadon hasn't gotten a Black Library book yet, Lysander has a half dozen books, short stories or novellas. Most of that is age in the hobby, but even Garadon's backstory in the codex revolves around a rivalry with Lysander.

They've got to make the guy everyone thinks of when they think of that Chapter into a Primaris, or they have to make a new Primaris guy into the guy everyone thinks of when they think of that chapter before they can squat the old marine.

Aggressors and Bladeguard are maybe the replacement for Terminators. Aggressors are the shooty ones. Move and Fire, Power Fists. Bladeguard are close combat, storm shielded. If normal marines get gone, so do Terminators. They are normal marines.

I think Lysander in gravis armor would have been as much as a disappointment as Khan on foot was.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Think about it like this. GW has a stock of mini marine stuff to sell that isn't selling but they don't ever want to make it again. So they are just selling out their stocks. Their rules will likely be good for this edition but they will never make a non primaris kit again.

What advantage exactly are they getting from this over just moving all firstborn to direct order only?

I suppose if they had difficulty producing extra minis due to limits at a factory...

you know the factory that they just massivly increased in size?


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Breton wrote:

Cap'n Failboat wrote:


I see what you were saying now. Thank you for clearing it up for me. Yea, many of the chapter unique units won't take much work to Primarisize, but 3-5 years should be enough to get them done. For the more outlandish ones, I'm a lot less confident that they will replace all of them, mostly because they're relegating the separate codex chapters to supplements again.

LOL. I did qualify the flier statement with it being a big stretch. Know no Fear did have Primaris riding in a Stormraven, but I concede to your point. I wouldn't have been too bothered, but I can imagine a majority having issue with it. Either way, a pair of fliers isn't a tough ask.

I'm with you on the BA and Assault equivalents, and the non-Indomitus outriders. You know they're adding stuff in October and I'd guess that at least the ATV or Speeder, if not both show up with the codex. I would just say the ATV (to supplement outriders) but the Speeder's been pseudo leaked (ready) for longer. Then the predator equivalent out before BA, so that the Baal can come with them.

Some of them might never "Cross the Rubicon Primaris" as GW likes to call it. In the first place, if a couple minor characters die, it helps "Grimdark" how dangerous the surgery is. Likewise it gives them a fluffy reason to replace IP they want to swap out. Dante is something like 1100 years old. Not that he's who I'm thinking of. Vulkan and Lysander both stayed old school while their chapter got a new Primaris hotness. Vulkan was screaming Flamer Aggressor holding a spear. When they didn't cross his Rubicon I started hoping his insurance was paid up. Lysander is the trickiest one with Termie Armor, zero shooting and a Thunderhammer. The easiest one to dump is probably Cassius. He's 800 years old, his face is falling off of his steel skull, and even though they keep making a new Primaris chaplain whose face is falling off his steel skull, it's not been Cassius. UM Already have a ton of Specials, Deathwatch will need more. Exit Cassius the unplanned dinner entre for a lucky Hive Tyrant, enter Castor and Pollux the two DW characters - one captain, one chaplain/librarian/lietuenant who will rise from his ashes more determined than ever to uphold his legacy. Or something.

this was a boxed set made specificly for every faction hence their making that a generic. it's like how ABR called the captain in the box captain, even though he was basicly "plastic Cato Sicarius"

 Jidmah wrote:
I think Lysander in gravis armor would have been as much as a disappointment as Khan on foot was.

I probably would have too, I did say I think he was the trickiest one to do. Also said I'm hoping Khan on Outrider comes out soon. Flamestorm Vulkan was the one I thought would have been a fairly simple slam dunk.

One key fact many of you are missing is:

GW is a Business first, and foremost.

They retire kits based on their popularity over a period of time. How many Aquila Strongpoints do you think sold during their time? Conversely, the Tactical Squad kits must be selling still otherwise they would have gone the way of the IG regiments - I don't think many people bought Mordian Lascannon teams, outside of M2O... This in turn means that the currently least selling models will probably be retired. I suspect the Taurox could be on that list, as its been a Webstore Exclusive for quite some time, whilst the Chimera has been around for decades...

Another one to note is when you look at the IG stuff on sale you have the following:

Cadian Shock Troops
Catachan Jungle Fighters (Webstore Exclusive)
Cadian Heavy Weapons Squad
Catachan Heavy Weapons Squad (Webstore Exclusive)
Cadian Command Squad
Catachan Command Squad (Webstore Exclusive)
Cadian Defence Force (Webstore Exclusive)
Catachan Defence Force (Webstore Exclusive)

I suspect that the Catachan sales are significantly less than the Cadian sales, so they are at the greatest risk of being retired. There is an additional thing to note: none of the Militarum Tempestus kits are Webstore Exclusive, barring the Taurox (which has parts to upgrade into a Taurox Prime).

I don't think that the Firstborn are at risk of anything happening to them as of yet... I can't say the same for the Kroot or Eldar Rangers...

 Blackie wrote:

There isn't any. When someone manages to get a collection of thousand of points of models there's no need to spend a single penny per month in order to stay in the hobby. In that case the fair cost per year/month is the amount invested in the rules, nothing else.

If GW releases models that I like I buy them, otherwise pass and keep going with what I already have. Being forced to buy because my army becomes obsolete is something I can't accept, an official model should stay legal forever.

Someone mentioned legends being forever, that doesn't compare and I disagree with him/her. Just like my PS3, it's no longer supported (legends), I can play games (find an opponent okay with legends), and may or may not be able to play a PvP match (event restrictions). Just like legends, the further we get from the date support ended, the use of the system (models) becomes less and less reliable. Supported systems and models can be used without question.

-b-

Points aren't the factor to consider here, especially with the more elite space marine armies. They are usually very point-to-cost efficient, SW even more so. X points also vary significantly to cost.

It's not a calculation of continued cost, you've already paid for the army. It's breaking down what you paid to how long/much you've been able to use them, as a measure of value. Alternatively, you can go by how many games you've played or how many hours of actual game time played. Time available for use after purchase is just the most easily and universally calculable, as most people don't track their games/time played. If not one of my suggestions, some kind of value analysis on any hobby expense should be taken by anyone on a budget.

The Primaris transition doesn't equate to being forced into rebuying an army "over and over" either. Base replacement was frustrating but that's far from the same. The closest would have been the old Rhino and Raider chassis conversion but they were still legit last time I saw one (~04) and affected five kits. Are they even prohibited now? Prior to Primaris, if someone got rid of their army and repurchased the same one later, that was of their own volition.

If your determined value for a unit's model/kit as being fully supported in perpetuity, that's what you think is the appropriate value. To me, that not realistic and far from reasonable. I'm not saying my acceptable value is ubiquitous either. Again, this is all subjective. I do compare our 10-25/mo to other hobbies or unnecessary expenses of people with similar interests, and it's not too bad. Board gaming/RPGs beats it out certainly. Certain sports range from zero to laughing at our complaining. Card/Vidya games also vary significantly. Movies are on par. I realize it's bad but I'm a smoker and a destroyer of Red Bull, those choices make Warhammer look cheap over time (expense example, others have different vices). (Knitting can be far cheaper but that's not something most of us are into, as an example of what I wouldn't use for comparison).

-CF





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:


The special named has to be the face of the franchise so to speak. And he has to be Primaris if they’re going to Legend old marines
I can’t even remember the new guy’s name for IF or Salamanders. Tor something. And I only remember that because it reminded me of the Horus Heresy novel character. He is not yet the face of the franchise.

They need a medium tank. An Impulsor ain’t it.
They need aircraft.
Jump assault infantry. Outriders are here, but jump assault infantry yelling Death From Above is SM iconic.
The attack bike and the speeder are supposedly already in the pipe
Indirect fire artillery/ordnance aren’t needed yet because it’s not a thing yet, but it will be sooner or later.

Some characters have already transitioned. They will have to do more or generate completely new ones. However, it's much more difficult to change a chapter's brand image to a new one when the old one's still front and center.

Medium tank, assuming you mean the predator, has already been leaked.
JP *Melee* and Aircraft, no argument from me.
Buggy (aka attack bike) model is clearly shown. Speeder, yep supposedly, but if the leak is not a speeder perhaps a flier.
BLOS, something to replace the WW is needed. Does that servo-turret count for the Thundy...not much fight from me here but it's at least a consideration.


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 Jidmah wrote:

What advantage exactly are they getting from this over just moving all firstborn to direct order only?

They incentivize updating to Primaris.
They unify the image of SM to just one version.
They no longer have to consider those units for balancing purposes.
--as crap as they are with doing it, not having to deal with them is easier & faster than both versions--
They don't have to dedicate x pages in each codex for them
--x pages multiplied by y printed books add up, and they still sell the book at the same price--
They don't have to spend the time, money, and effort producing models that don't sell well, and focus on ones needed for variety (non-marines) & less prevalent and/or have higher sales potential.

-b-

You want to copy a winning tourney list or see GW buffing mini-marine units. Nice, those units probably see even more use. Now...which/how many of those first born kits do you buy? What do you not already have from 5-10-15 years ago?

Okay, you found something you need. Do you go through GW or a retailer? Does another local gamer not have a few of those kits still in a box/sprue/unpainted from 10 years ago? Some rando on ebay?

Yes, this will apply to Primaris too. The difference is that Primaris have been out for 3 years. Some modern marine kits have been out for nearly 20, around when most of the Rhino chassis converted to boxy from sloped ones (2001?). GW got their maximum return on investment for most kits years before Primaris. The Marine popularity compounds with the timespan units have been available resulting in a second-hand market flooded with them, limiting growth/profit.

I still think 10e is their expiration date but wouldn't be surprised they delay it to 11th to placate first born fans.

Codex:SM has been more expensive than other codices for a while now...

GW is a business, we must be ok with them destroying entire ranges with planned obsolescence to make more money.

Are you even a consumer? Is this consumer masochism, otherwise?

GW existed for many years without relying on such anti consumer approaches (at least to the current extent). Just because they want to make more money it doesn’t mean we must roll over and let them step all over us. At least complain and call it what it is. Personally, I am not buying a single marine miniature in response to their commercial strategy.

Cap'n Failboat wrote:

The Primaris transition doesn't equate to being forced into rebuying an army "over and over" either.

If you are a SM player pre 2017 you actually have to re-buy your entire army in order to play if classic marines become squatted or legends. Legends are not always allowed.

A couple editions from now GW could say: oh those primaris are not tough enough for the current state of 40k and people love superheroes and bigger models anyway, so why don't we launch SM 3.0?

Cap'n Failboat wrote:

If your determined value for a unit's model/kit as being fully supported in perpetuity, that's what you think is the appropriate value. To me, that not realistic and far from reasonable.

To me it's very reasonable. GW charges a lot of money on rules alone. Even without spending a single cent in miniatures for an entire edition a player that wants to play with all the rules available has to pay a lot of money anyway. I could agree with you if ALL the books were released for free. The rules you find in them at least. But even without buying miniatures I can easily pay 300ish dollars per edition in rule-books. If I owned more than 2 armies the amount of money invested in books could be even higher than starting a full new 2000+ points army.

 Blackie wrote:

A couple editions from now GW could say: oh those primaris are not tough enough for the current state of 40k and people love superheroes and bigger models anyway, so why don't we launch SM 3.0?

We're on at least Space Marines 3.0 now already, if you treat all RT metals and RTB01 as one, all 2nd-7th same scale as one and Primaris as third.

Grey40k wrote:
GW is a business, we must be ok with them destroying entire ranges with planned obsolescence to make more money.

Are you even a consumer? Is this consumer masochism, otherwise?

GW existed for many years without relying on such anti consumer approaches (at least to the current extent). Just because they want to make more money it doesn’t mean we must roll over and let them step all over us. At least complain and call it what it is. Personally, I am not buying a single marine miniature in response to their commercial strategy.

What took you 9 editions to realise GW sell 'new! improved!' versions of the same things to you? Like, apart from a new moniker and some new unit roles that weirdly rile people, they're just new Space Marines. This is not a new strategy for GW.

Grey40k wrote:
GW is a business, we must be ok with them destroying entire ranges with planned obsolescence to make more money.

Are you even a consumer? Is this consumer masochism, otherwise?

GW existed for many years without relying on such anti consumer approaches (at least to the current extent). Just because they want to make more money it doesn’t mean we must roll over and let them step all over us. At least complain and call it what it is. Personally, I am not buying a single marine miniature in response to their commercial strategy.

Did you also ignore Battlefield IV when it was released because you own Battlefield 1942?

I get that having to buy new ranges is annoying AF and I'm also going to rile against my favourites getting Squatted but honestly? I'm not buying any GW releases because I literally have all I need. Sure I *WANT* a bunch more but there is no incentive for me to give GW any money without Primaris. *Personally* I'd have liked an updated release for any faction besides Space Marines. I'd loved to see a 2017 update to Orks and Eldar, shortly followed by Tau and then maybe Tyranids could have some love thrown their way rather than Marines 2.0. I'm hoping we'll get Xenos 2.0 soon and before SM 3.0

IMHO a less confrontational way would have been to just replace current models 1:1 with updates but then larger scale does need some sort of in-universe reason but they could have replaced the models.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

What took you 9 editions to realise GW sell 'new! improved!' versions of the same things to you? Like, apart from a new moniker and some new unit roles that weirdly rile people, they're just new Space Marines. This is not a new strategy for GW.

It is, in fact, new; everyone can fact check it so why claim otherwise? Before they started their current waves of planned obsolescence, you could have run tactical marines from RT alongside your 7th edition new sculpts.

They are NOT just new SM, some of us may want to play the game outside of our yards and garages, were using first born as primaris is not allowed.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kayback wrote:

Did you also ignore Battlefield IV when it was released because you own Battlefield 1942?

Not the same, at all. Before, if you preferred the new marine sculpts (and there were a bunch since RT) you could just buy them. A tactical marine was a tactical marine regardless of the edition. Now, they arbitrarily made them obsolete so that they could sell more.

Battlefield Xs are video games which have a natural rate of obsolescence which is much higher than miniatures. They do not need to forcefully retire BF games, people buy new improved versions.

They needed to hurt old marines with relatively worse rules so that they could sell primaris, and have the looming threat of squatting them as a deterrance for fielding them. It is planned obsolescence, not natural obsolescence.

Cap'n Failboat wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:


The special named has to be the face of the franchise so to speak. And he has to be Primaris if they’re going to Legend old marines
I can’t even remember the new guy’s name for IF or Salamanders. Tor something. And I only remember that because it reminded me of the Horus Heresy novel character. He is not yet the face of the franchise.

They need a medium tank. An Impulsor ain’t it.
They need aircraft.
Jump assault infantry. Outriders are here, but jump assault infantry yelling Death From Above is SM iconic.
The attack bike and the speeder are supposedly already in the pipe
Indirect fire artillery/ordnance aren’t needed yet because it’s not a thing yet, but it will be sooner or later.

Some characters have already transitioned. They will have to do more or generate completely new ones. However, it's much more difficult to change a chapter's brand image to a new one when the old one's still front and center.

Medium tank, assuming you mean the predator, has already been leaked.
JP *Melee* and Aircraft, no argument from me.
Buggy (aka attack bike) model is clearly shown. Speeder, yep supposedly, but if the leak is not a speeder perhaps a flier.
BLOS, something to replace the WW is needed. Does that servo-turret count for the Thundy...not much fight from me here but it's at least a consideration.

Leaked but not out yet. They have to be out to actually squat what they "replace".

"Face of the Franchise" doesn't necessarily mean prototypical of it. Way back when they were initially handing out flavor to the Big Four - each chapter got a basic squad

BA - Assault Squads
DA - Terminator Squads
UM - Tactical Squads
SW - Devastator Squads (not that it really worked)

Calgar and Sicarius both aren't really Tactical nor are their special abilities Tactical friendly. They're beat sticks in an army that isn't particularly known for them. Dante is easily a Veteran Assault Marine, Azrael is not a Veteran Terminator nor do his abilities point hard at them. Wolves and Dev Squads didn't last long, Ragnar IS very Grey Hunter and Grey Hunter friendly. Tor Garadon is on his way to replacing Lysander as the guy you think of. His rules are "better". He needs some black library love to cement it. They could easily just make a Primaris Thundercannon. When they make primaris tech marines. One thing we keep forgetting is... they don't.

Grey40k wrote:
GW is a business, we must be ok with them destroying entire ranges with planned obsolescence to make more money.

Are you even a consumer? Is this consumer masochism, otherwise?

GW existed for many years without relying on such anti-consumer approaches (at least to the current extent). Just because they want to make more money it doesn’t mean we must roll over and let them step all over us. At least complain and call it what it is. Personally, I am not buying a single marine miniature in response to their commercial strategy.

I get where you're coming from, but don't make it out to be like they've been bricking an army line every couple years. The last one was 6 editions ago (1997?).

Which specific anti-consumer approach are you speaking of? I just want to make sure you're still talking about the removing/legends-ing of firstborn. That's not current, it's a possibility or even an eventuality. I really think it's going to happen but it's not a guarantee, nor is when I believe it'll happen (10th). If not that, they've periodically raised prices on us, incentivized sales through rules (remember 0pt dedicated transports?), invalidated units/lists through the same...forever.

Assuming you mean their deletion, I'd be more upset if the transition had been out of nowhere. We're looking at 6 years since Primaris' introduction (editions tend to average 3), or 9 years if we're off by an edition before they're removed. Transitioning in that time isn't insurmountable, getting value for your army in that timeframe is possible, maybe even easy if you've had most of your army prior to Primaris release.

We're also talking marines here. 2000pts is easily less than $1K investment to enjoy for the number of years we're talking about. It's slightly less in the EU & UK from my understanding as well. This isn't as big of a fleecing as you make it out to be. Of course, I'd prefer for my marines to last forever, but expecting them to is irrational.

 Jidmah wrote:
Codex:SM has been more expensive than other codices for a while now...

Moreover, one got two codices in one edition plus several codices and supplements for very prominent chapters.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Codex:SM has been more expensive than other codices for a while now...

Moreover, one got two codices in one edition plus several codices and supplements for very prominent chapters.

The page count point wasn't overly significant to begin with but neither argument works against it.

Each book costs X to make. Sells for $100
Each book costs (X - minuscule page savings) to make. Still sells for $100
Multiply by volume.

Codex double release in an edition just multiplies any savings from getting to print fewer pages, however small that it is.
It's a micro-saving from the printing process, another from the design process, another for the rules writing, etc. etc.
Probably not going to fill the coffers but is part of increased efficiency. I'm not going to fight hard for that point.

Cap'n Failboat wrote:

Which specific anti-consumer approach are you speaking of? I just want to make sure you're still talking about the removing/legends-ing of firstborn. That's not current, it's a possibility or even an eventuality. I really think it's going to happen but it's not a guarantee, nor is when I believe it'll happen (10th). If not that, they've periodically raised prices on us, incentivized sales through rules (remember 0pt dedicated transports?), invalidated units/lists through the same...forever.

We're also talking marines here. 2000pts is easily less than $1K investment to enjoy for the number of years we're talking about. It's slightly less in the EU & UK from my understanding as well. This isn't as big of a fleecing as you make it out to be. Of course, I'd prefer for my marines to last forever, but expecting them to is irrational.

I am not exaggerating, and this is not business as usual.

GW supported mainstay miniatures over editions (e.g. tactical marines), despite releasing new models. The "new" approach started with the squatting of WHFB and was followed by the primaris approach.

Those are two examples of planned obsolescence and hence inherently anti consumer. They are also an order of magnitude bigger than the previous little tricks they pulled.

Whether warhammer is relatively cheap entertainment or not is besides the point. No one is asking for them to construct diamond miniatures that will last forever. But them using their market dominance to impose planned obsolescence is unequivocally bad for us consumers, let's just openly say it. My response is to avoid buying marines, and to systematically purchase from ebay / 2nd hand sources miniatures. I am not going to go as far as hurting my enjoyment to "punish" them, but I am certainly going to be very guarded in spending my money on anything GW related.

Grey40k wrote:

planned obsolescence and hence inherently anti consumer.

Is it though? Some models are over 10 years old. Do you still use a pre-2010 cell phone?

I know you dislike comparisons but expecting a company to stay in business by selling the same thing forever isn't viable.

I'd have like a revamp of the Xeno forces to make them more attractive but you're really making a mountain out of this re-scaled mole hill.

You can always use your Firstborn as a "counts as" army.

Breton wrote:


Leaked but not out yet. They have to be out to actually squat what they "replace".

"Face of the Franchise" doesn't necessarily mean prototypical of it. Way back when they were initially handing out flavor to the Big Four - each chapter got a basic squad

BA - Assault Squads
DA - Terminator Squads
UM - Tactical Squads
SW - Devastator Squads (not that it really worked)

Calgar and Sicarius both aren't really Tactical nor are their special abilities Tactical friendly. They're beat sticks in an army that isn't particularly known for them. Dante is easily a Veteran Assault Marine, Azrael is not a Veteran Terminator nor do his abilities point hard at them. Wolves and Dev Squads didn't last long, Ragnar IS very Grey Hunter and Grey Hunter friendly. Tor Garadon is on his way to replacing Lysander as the guy you think of. His rules are "better". He needs some black library love to cement it. They could easily just make a Primaris Thundercannon. When they make primaris tech marines. One thing we keep forgetting is... they don't.

I'll concede to jumping the gun a little with leaked stuff, but you can't pretend that it's all that far from being able to produce them when they're willing to officially display some of them. Doing a quick count through Battle Scribe, there are 40 unique units released between 8e and now. 13 of these are 3+ man squads, the remainder being individual characters or vehicles. If they continue the focus on Primaris as they did the last edition, it's not hard to get the units we've talked about into production and released in 3 years. Even then, a few gaps aren't going to be overwhelming. Lore is on the same boat.

Kayback wrote:

Grey40k wrote:

planned obsolescence and hence inherently anti consumer.

Is it though? Some models are over 10 years old. Do you still use a pre-2010 cell phone?

I know you dislike comparisons but expecting a company to stay in business by selling the same thing forever isn't viable.

I'd have like a revamp of the Xeno forces to make them more attractive but you're really making a mountain out of this re-scaled mole hill.

You can always use your Firstborn as a "counts as" army.

Do you know what planned obsolescence is? Because you answer suggests you don't.

Counts as was actually completely fine when they released new models but kept the IG rules (e.g. tactical marines); try going to any tourney with tactical marines that "count as" primaris, or with centurions that "count as" aggressors.

It is quite obviously a move to obsolete the old minis via rules. Not because I choose to buy a new tactical marine since I like the sculpt better, but because GW purposely decided to retire it. This is a textbook example of planned obsolescence. The fact that planned obsolescence hurts consumers is in general considered obvious, so I have trouble identifying what you do not understand.

Cap'n Failboat wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Codex:SM has been more expensive than other codices for a while now...

Moreover, one got two codices in one edition plus several codices and supplements for very prominent chapters.

The page count point wasn't overly significant to begin with but neither argument works against it.

Each book costs X to make. Sells for $100
Each book costs (X - minuscule page savings) to make. Still sells for $100
Multiply by volume.

Codex double release in an edition just multiplies any savings from getting to print fewer pages, however small that it is.
It's a micro-saving from the printing process, another from the design process, another for the rules writing, etc. etc.
Probably not going to fill the coffers but is part of increased efficiency. I'm not going to fight hard for that point.

I still don't think all the advantages you listed will gain GW more than the money they would make by simply keeping a very small stock of oldmarines around and having another run of them whenever they find that stock to be running out. It's literally printing money at this point.

Grey40k wrote:


GW supported mainstay miniatures over editions (e.g. tactical marines), despite releasing new models. The "new" approach started with the squatting of WHFB and was followed by the primaris approach.

My response is to avoid buying marines, and to systematically purchase from ebay / 2nd hand sources miniatures. I am not going to go as far as hurting my enjoyment to "punish" them, but I am certainly going to be very guarded in spending my money on anything GW related.

I'm not sure you understand that concept. Some models, as you point out, were legitimately out for over 20 years. I guess GW has a funny definition of rapid. That they sucked up extremely poor sales of WHFB's system for years as part of their nefarious planned obsolescence from the 90s. And you've equated a single line's termination now with planned obsolescence for every army. The clearly declining gross income for the company didn't spur them on either.

As an aside, I was legitimately surprised because when the Old World was exploded because it had been years since anyone in my area was playing it.

That's your response? That's standard operating procedure even before Primaris was a thing. As discussed, models/equivalent units in the line have been out for so long that needing to spend one more cent on a model was unnecessary for many of us.

Kayback wrote:


Is it though? Some models are over 10 years old. Do you still use a pre-2010 cell phone?

A lot of peope do. And those who don't are using the modern phones mostly to do things that older phones couldn't do. Like watching videos or making photos. No one forces them to use modern phones if they need to call or text someone.

Classic marines and primaris are and do the exact same thing, except one line could be squatted for no other reason than forcing players to re-buy their army. Not just a few units, but anything released before 3 years ago.

The comparison between phones and miniatures could be fair (maybe) if primaris marines were able to do something different than their older counterpart. Like moving by themselves, or replicating sounds when the player rolls to resolve their firepower (Bang!) maybe or when he fails some of their armor saves (Aaaarrgh!!). Or maybe they could just read your email or making coffee. At that point they'd be like post 2010 phones compared to older ones.

 Jidmah wrote:

I still don't think all the advantages you listed will gain GW more than the money they would make by simply keeping a very small stock of oldmarines around and having another run of them whenever they find that stock to be running out. It's literally printing money at this point.

Small stock for a line with dozens of units is not cost-free. Demand was tanked or close to it. Prior to 2017, GW's gross income was steadily reducing.
Production, storage, rules development, etc have their own costs. After those, is opportunity cost. That of the effort to develop & balance rules instead of modern units or other armies and production of models required for the health of the game (non-marines) or which will sell well instead of minimarines.

That should be enough. The other stuff was window dressing.

Cap'n Failboat wrote:

I'm not sure you understand that concept. Some models, as you point out, were legitimately out for over 20 years. I guess GW has a funny definition of rapid. That they sucked up extremely poor sales of WHFB's system for years as part of their nefarious planned obsolescence from the 90s. And you've equated a single line's termination now with planned obsolescence for every army. The clearly declining gross income for the company didn't spur them on either.

As an aside, I was legitimately surprised because when the Old World was exploded because it had been years since anyone in my area was playing it.

That's your response? That's standard operating procedure even before Primaris was a thing. As discussed, models/equivalent units in the line have been out for so long that needing to spend one more cent on a model was unnecessary for many of us.

I understand perfectly well, but clearly you don't.

Tactical marines could have lasted another 20 years but GW chose to phase them out to sell new models. That is precisely a move to make something obsolete and it is a very nasty anti consumer practice.

Truth is, GW grew while supporting old sculpts for decades, so it is not an unfeasible business model. They just choose to change it to make more money.

You cannot change facts or definitions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:

Kayback wrote:


Is it though? Some models are over 10 years old. Do you still use a pre-2010 cell phone?

A lot of peope do. And those who don't are using the modern phones mostly to do things that older phones couldn't do. Like watching videos or making photos. No one forces them to use modern phones if they need to call or text someone.

Classic marines and primaris are and do the exact same thing, except one line could be squatted for no other reason than forcing players to re-buy their army. Not just a few units, but anything released before 3 years ago.

The comparison between phones and miniatures could be fair (maybe) if primaris marines were able to do something different than their older counterpart. Like moving by themselves, or replicating sounds when the player rolls to resolve their firepower (Bang!) maybe or when he fails some of their armor saves (Aaaarrgh!!). Or maybe they could just read your email or making coffee. At that point they'd be like post 2010 phones compared to older ones.

At this point I think we are hitting the "bad faith" wall. Primaris marines is a textbook example of planned obsolescence and there is no denying it.

The fact that some people do not care, or accept it because "that is what modern companies do" does not change it one bit. Just say that, don't attempt to hide it behind poor discussion tactics.

Grey40k wrote:

Tactical marines could have lasted another 20 years but GW chose to phase them out to sell new models. That is precisely a move to make something obsolete and it is a very nasty anti consumer practice.

Truth is, GW grew while supporting old sculpts for decades, so it is not an unfeasible business model. They just choose to change it to make more money.

You cannot change facts or definitions.

Planned obsolescence is designing a product to have a limited lifespan and it's usually a quick timeframe not 20+ years. Apple's selection of components designed to last for so many years is an example of this. GW didn't plan firstborn's obsolescence when they started pumping them out over two decades ago. They are replacing them with Primaris. If they plan for Primaris to be obsolete in 5 years you'd have an argument for them. Between 2012 and 2017, GW's gross profit reduced by 16 million GBP. Their overall financials are accessible.

Cap'n Failboat wrote:

Grey40k wrote:

Tactical marines could have lasted another 20 years but GW chose to phase them out to sell new models. That is precisely a move to make something obsolete and it is a very nasty anti consumer practice.

Truth is, GW grew while supporting old sculpts for decades, so it is not an unfeasible business model. They just choose to change it to make more money.

You cannot change facts or definitions.

Planned obsolescence is designing a product to have a limited lifespan and it's usually a quick timeframe not 20+ years. Apple's selection of components designed to last for so many years is an example of this. GW didn't plan firstborn's obsolescence when they started pumping them out over two decades ago. They are replacing them with Primaris. If they plan for Primaris to be obsolete in 5 years you'd have an argument for them. Between 2012 and 2017, GW's gross profit reduced by 16 million GBP. Their overall financials are accessible.

Planned / designed obsolescence is not limited to the manufacturing of the product, as GW very clearly has done. It simply means that a product is "made obsolete" in its intended function for the purpose of selling a newer one. GW phased out oldmarines in favor of primaris via rules with the purpose of selling new marines. You agree with this, but somehow refuse to call it planned obsolescence because it has a bad rep. Instead, you tell me I am getting good value per hour of entertainment, let me know how long I enjoyed my old marines, and so on. In other words, you are being GW salesman. But all those comments do not change the fact that GW phased out oldmarines to sell new marines, and that they chose to do that even though it is bad for us consumers.

The time span is irrelevant for the definition, although of course shorter artificial durations are worse for the consumer. The 20+ years is the result of the company changing their approach some years ago. Whether they then squad primaris or not will not change that the moved they pulled with primaris is planned obsolescence.

I disagree that the phasing of oldmarines over to Primaris is planned obsolescence. As mentioned previously, there's no way this line of events was predicted and planned when Marines were in their infancy 20 years ago. This is obsolescence, sure, and it's one that GW is introducing themselves, but in response to market factors in order to boost profits. If you consider the results to be anti-consumer - that's fair enough, but don't call it what it isn't.

If you want a REAL example of GW practicing planned obsolescence - Psychic Awakening.

 Super Ready wrote:
I disagree that the phasing of oldmarines over to Primaris is planned obsolescence. As mentioned previously, there's no way this line of events was predicted and planned when Marines were in their infancy 20 years ago. This is obsolescence, sure, and it's one that GW is introducing themselves, but in response to market factors in order to boost profits. If you consider the results to be anti-consumer - that's fair enough, but don't call it what it isn't.

If you want a REAL example of GW practicing planned obsolescence - Psychic Awakening.

Again getting caught in the words. The key component of "planned" obsolescence is that it is by design, not when that happens. The term planned is often substituted by others such as programmed. They chose to implement it now, due to a change in the commercial strategy, but it remains the same strategy: you "break" a product to sell a new one (DEFINITION: It is the deliberate shortening of a lifespan of a product to force consumers to purchase replacements). This strategy does not hinge on WHEN the decision to make the product obsolete was made.

It is not me saying it is anti-consumer, it is widely understood to be so.

 Blackie wrote:

If you are a SM player pre 2017 you actually have to re-buy your entire army in order to play if classic marines become squatted or legends. Legends are not always allowed.

Yea...once. Once is not over and over. Even if you didn't buy Primaris, their arrival should've been alarm bells prompting a cessation of firstborn purchases or pressing forward only in the understanding that their use was limited.

 Blackie wrote:

A couple editions from now GW could say: oh those primaris are not tough enough for the current state of 40k and people love superheroes and bigger models anyway, so why don't we launch SM 3.0?

If they did that for in this edition, I'd be with you, seeing as my first Primaris was Indomitus. In 10e, I'd be sore about it. 11e, I'd suck it up because I probably got adequate value for it.

 Blackie wrote:

To me it's very reasonable. GW charges a lot of money on rules alone. Even without spending a single cent in miniatures for an entire edition a player that wants to play with all the rules available has to pay a lot of money anyway. I could agree with you if ALL the books were released for free. The rules you find in them at least. But even without buying miniatures I can easily pay 300ish dollars per edition in rule-books. If I owned more than 2 armies the amount of money invested in books could be even higher than starting a full new 2000+ points army.

Easily? No. If you bought every possible supplement related to an army, yes. I get most and I wouldn't blame you for doing it but if you want all the rules, it's the cost of getting them legitimately, or you can learn to share. The pile of books is an unfortunate development for 40K, but again, do a value calculation. Even a higher one makes sense. Indefinite is simply absurd and leaves no room for GW to survive as a business.

Planned obsolescence is introducing something with a deliberately short lifespan.

Releasing NEW IMPROVED is not planned obsolescence.

No amount of bad faith arguing can make the definitions the same.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Planned obsolescence is introducing something with a deliberately short lifespan.

Releasing NEW IMPROVED is not planned obsolescence.

No amount of bad faith arguing can make the definitions the same.

Seriously? Absolutely no one, so far, denied that they shortened the lifespan of oldmarines on purpose to sell new marines. I guess there is always room for more bad faith arguments and mudying the waters.

They could have perfectly well released the primaris models and called them tactical marines in a new but otherwise equivalent armor. They chose to make them better rule wise, and eventually legend old marines, because otherwise they wouldn't have sold as many new marines otherwise.

Are your OLD marines naturally obsolete because there is a new sculpt? No, they are not, at least for enough people. That's why GW decided to pull the primaris move. Because new sculpts do not make old sculpts ''obsolete'' at the rate that they desire. In fact, many people are totally find with the old sculpts otherwise (e.g. vintage beaky marine armies are hot).

Grey40k wrote:

Seriously? Absolutely no one, so far, denied that they shortened the lifespan of oldmarines on purpose to sell new marines. I guess there is always room for more bad faith arguments and mudying the waters.

They could have perfectly well released the primaris models and called them tactical marines in a new but otherwise equivalent armor. They chose to make them better rule wise, and eventually legend old marines, because otherwise they wouldn't have sold as many new marines otherwise.

Are your OLD marines naturally obsolete because there is a new sculpt? No, they are not, at least for enough people. That's why GW decided to pull the primaris move. Because new sculpts do not make old sculpts ''obsolete'' at the rate that they desire. In fact, many people are totally find with the old sculpts otherwise (e.g. vintage beaky marine armies are hot).

I'm done. Call it what you will.

What would it be if they changed tac and go from worse, but usable, to as good or better because of options? Say sometime soon...like October maybe.

 JohnnyHell wrote:


Releasing NEW IMPROVED is not planned obsolescence.

But they're not improved, the're just newer. They're still plastic models for the same game.

In fact for people that own independent marines armies, they're the opposite of IMPROVED. Take SW, the SM chapter I play. They have lots of signature units:

- Logan
- Bjorn/wulfen dread/ven dread/Murderfang
- Ulrik
- Njal (2 actually)
- Arjac
- Lukas
- Rune priest
- Iron priest
- Grey hunters/blood claws (with bitz to convert scouts as well)
- Stormfang/stormwolf
- TWC
- Wulfen
- Fenrisian wolves
- Wolfguard terminators

Just off top of my head. Plus all the kits that are shared with other SM chapters. Signature SW Primaris are:

- Ragnar
- Primaris Battle Leader

And there's a sprue with upgrades for infantry models with a gran total of... 3 SW heads, lol. Grey hunters, termy, TWC alone have 30+ SW dedicated heads to choose from.
Tons of bitz to customize the models as well. Classic SW also have their sprue of upgrades as well.

So yeah, in practise unless GW is going to release 10+ SW signature kits my army will be squatted for real if classic marines are moved to legend. I don't play SM and I don't like the aesthetics of primaris, if SW are going to be just generic SM painted in light grey/blue with just a couple of dedicated characters and a specific chapter trait like current vanilla marines I'd have to play something else because the army I love wouldn't exist anymore. Same for DA and BA.

When GW released the ork buggies and the new ghaz their older counterparts were actually squatted (the latter in the same exact day SotB was released) but the ork player can choose to buy them or not. If he doesn't like them or doesn't want to buy them, fine, he still has plenty of options to play. That's something I accept and I actually consider it positive.

Cap'n Failboat wrote:


I'm done. Call it what you will.

What would it be if they changed tac and go from worse, but usable, to as good or better because of options? Say sometime soon...like October maybe.

Oldmarines are dead, the question is how long they'll keep them on life support.

 Blackie wrote:

Kayback wrote:


Is it though? Some models are over 10 years old. Do you still use a pre-2010 cell phone?

A lot of peope do. And those who don't are using the modern phones mostly to do things that older phones couldn't do. Like watching videos or making photos. No one forces them to use modern phones if they need to call or text someone.

Classic marines and primaris are and do the exact same thing, except one line could be squatted for no other reason than forcing players to re-buy their army. Not just a few units, but anything released before 3 years ago.

The comparison between phones and miniatures could be fair (maybe) if primaris marines were able to do something different than their older counterpart. Like moving by themselves, or replicating sounds when the player rolls to resolve their firepower (Bang!) maybe or when he fails some of their armor saves (Aaaarrgh!!). Or maybe they could just read your email or making coffee. At that point they'd be like post 2010 phones compared to older ones.

Well two things they can do is 1) be a better scale and 2) have Primaris stat lines.

True they've pretty much rendered point 2 null with the +1W buff across the board but it is still there.

A pre 2010 phone is likely running GSM, something Verizon and TMobile is turning off by the end of 2020 squatting all those feature phone. Soooooo...

They aren't preventing anyone using a Firstborn Marine as a Primaris Marine. You may lose your ruleset for your old style squads but you aren't prevented from using your models, like they did with LOTR/WHFB. Your Firstborn Marines can be used as Primaris without costing you anything.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey40k wrote:


Do you know what planned obsolescence is? Because you answer suggests you don't.

It's clear you don't, because that phrase doesn't mean what you're trying to make it mean.

Replacing old items with new and updated ones is not planned obsolescence. They didn't design the Firstborn, or even the RT with the plan of replacing them. Like I said some of the designs have been around for a decade or longer. There isn't any difference between an RT era Tactical Marine and one you purchased last week. They play the same on the tabletop. The current Land Speeder design is 22 years old! That isn't planned obsolescence. Being made obsolete by updates and changes isn't planned obsolescence. Now they have introduced V2.0, which'll do stuff differently and you have an issue with it? You still haven't explained why.

Especially as no one is actually forcing you to buy new models. You can use them as Primaris. There isn't any rule preventing that.

Just seems to be a drum to beat. Always helps your point if you don’t attach a completely incorrect label to try and demonise something.

LOL You can use oldmarines as primaris? No more than you can use a beer bottle, a rubber duck, or a lego.

I'll make it simple:

Selling a new tactical marine sculpt is different from selling a "primaris" sculpt that is better than the tactical marine.

One thing is offering me a choice (do I like it better?), the other is breaking the "old" product to sell the "new" product.

If you cannot tell the difference, I cannot help you.

Cap'n Failboat wrote:


I'll concede to jumping the gun a little with leaked stuff, but you can't pretend that it's all that far from being able to produce them when they're willing to officially display some of them. Doing a quick count through Battle Scribe, there are 40 unique units released between 8e and now. 13 of these are 3+ man squads, the remainder being individual characters or vehicles. If they continue the focus on Primaris as they did the last edition, it's not hard to get the units we've talked about into production and released in 3 years. Even then, a few gaps aren't going to be overwhelming. Lore is on the same boat.

Oh its not even as hard as GW has made it. They're slower doing this than they need to be, I assume they're going at the speed they want to. This way they don't flood us with models, overwhelming our paint tables and wallets. There's probably some stuff they dont/didn't know what they wanted to do about yet too
- i.e. DW/RW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey40k wrote:


Oldmarines are dead, the question is how long they'll keep them on life support.

Old Marines were dead. They may still be. I'm not as convinced as I was. Still pretty convinced, but I think GW had to change their undershorts when they saw the pushback.

Going with the description provided by Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence#Types), you could make a point for "Systemic obsolescence".

However, GW won't send anybody to your house to dissolve all of your old Marines in acid so you have to get a replacement. They will always be valid to use for games from 1st to 9th edition (and maybe beyond).

The definition of "Planned obsolescence" does not cover such fine details like a board game transitioning to it's next rules iteration.

For what we know so far, Firstborn are not being kept underperforming on purpose. They even get buffs to their wounds and weapons. In 8th some of the strongest units were Firstborn.

On the other side you have a big list of Primaris units that are okay, but not "I have to rebuy everything to stay competitive" good.

It's squatting any full collection of pre 8th models. All of them, not just some units. So yeah, it is squatting an army. Primaris were released only 3 years ago, it's not like squatting armies that haven't been updated since Rogue Trader.

If you think it's ok to re-buy the same army over and over again good for you, I simply disagree with that logic.

No. Squatting an army means that army literally no longer exists. Period. Ending a model line is just that. Ending a model line. Can Bretonnian players play AoS? No. What about Tomb Kings? No. What about .... Squats in 40k? No. Ending Oldmarines means a model line will no longer have active support and said models will move to Legends where they will be legal for most games. At that point, will you still be able to play Imperial Marines? Yep. With your old models OR with the new ones. So I really can't go with the line of thought that says this is a full-on squatting.

Do I like it? Actually no. As I said, I have a full chapter (minus Thunderhawks lol) of Marines. Not an exaggeration either. I have an actual, literal, full chapter of old marines. But the reality is, giving us 5-10 years IS a pretty long time. GW is still a business and they need to make money. Traditionally, Old Marines were big sellers, but that market has reached saturation. Many of the models have also not aged well (much as I love them - the old marine line looks really silly next to a lot of modern models) and were in bad need of an update. Look no further than the fact that most of the stuff in the mystery boxes GW sent out (to clear out stock that wasn't selling) was old marine stuff.

Like it or not, things change and you can't expect a company to support a thing indefinitely. The good news is, this really isn't that big a deal IMO. While I wish they could support old marines indefinitely (who knows, maybe they will, but I doubt it), if they are moved to legends, it really doesn't affect most players all that much. I'll still use my old marines in garage hammer games, and, when the mood strikes me, as stand ins for certain Primaris units. This really only effects tournament players, and a good portion of them will likely have gone full Primaris by the time the actual move to legends occurs anyway. I'm sad to see the old marines go, but honestly, their time had been up for quite a while imo.

 Ordana wrote:
If normal marines are not being phased out then show me how many 'old' marine releases there have been since Primaris came out (that isn't some lieutenant version).

Has there been even 1?

If Eldar/Dark Eldar/Harlequins/IG are not being phased out, then show me how many Eldar/Dark Eldar/Harlequins/IG release there have been since Primaris came out.

Has there been even 1?


Subtelty aside:
Most of the old marines kits are rather fresh for GW standards. If you count out the "newly created factions", old marines may even have the most up-to-date model line in the whole 40k universe.
These models are sculptured, the molds a formed, the glossy images for box and advertisment have been designed/painted/printed and this is what makes roughly >90% of the total costs.
The last <10% is using some plastic to print the stuff and then sell it... GW would be utterly stupid to not sell those kits for like another decade.

If Eldar/Dark Eldar/Harlequins/IG are not being phased out, then show me how many Eldar/Dark Eldar/Harlequins/IG release there have been since Primaris came out.

Has there been even 1?

The difference is, there are no alternative models coming out for any of those lines. It's really not the same thing.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Going with the description provided by Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence#Types), you could make a point for "Systemic obsolescence".

However, GW won't send anybody to your house to dissolve all of your old Marines in acid so you have to get a replacement. They will always be valid to use for games from 1st to 9th edition (and maybe beyond).

The definition of "Planned obsolescence" does not cover such fine details like a board game transitioning to it's next rules iteration.

For what we know so far, Firstborn are not being kept underperforming on purpose. They even get buffs to their wounds and weapons. In 8th some of the strongest units were Firstborn.

On the other side you have a big list of Primaris units that are okay, but not "I have to rebuy everything to stay competitive" good.

No, they won't destroy the models. But for many people who play outside of a close group of friends, they may as well.

Firstborn are being phased out, as evidenced by the fact that outside few units they have been kicked out of all the competitive lists. And the few units that remained had more to do with the primaris line not being yet fully developed than anything else; exceptions to the rule, if you wish.

As for primaris not being overwhelmingly good or even OP, I point to aggressors, eradicators, BGV, impulsors, intercessors, etc.

It is obvious to absolutely everyone that primaris are the future of marines, the discussion is more about how fast and whether this happening in the first place is anti-consumer or not.

PS - As for the lawyring over "planned obsolescence" we have seen over the last few pages: there is no need for a specific term to be coined after "board games phasing out models...."; the essence of the definition fits it quite well and I doubt that in any professional / academic setting anyone would debate it. Now, the anonymous public internet forums are a different beast...

The Old Space Marine range is complete (has been for years)- if you want something its there - unlike any other Faction, never mind a subfaction. How many different tactical squads are needed?

If we longer get gak like Centurions and Wolf Sleds crowbarred into the game to try and make something new for Marine players to buy - how can that be a bad thing

Worst case scenario it that the truly vast and now increasingly bloated Firstborn range will go to direct order and anyone wanting them will have to rely on "just" them and the equally vast FW marine range.

There is limited space on the shelves - having two vast marine ranges with all the sub sub faction models is not practical.

Firstborn have just received a huge boost with the 2W so much so that some Primaris players are now complaining "whats special about Primaris" and will likely be demanding further boosts to them....

Grey40k wrote:
As for primaris not being overwhelmingly good or even OP, I point to aggressors, eradicators, BGV, impulsors, intercessors, etc.

- Hellblasters
- Redemptor Dreadnought
- Reivers
- Lieutenant in Phobos armour
- Librarian in Phobos armour
- Captain in Phobos armour
- Primaris captain
- Tor Garadon
- Adrax Agatone
- Mephiston
- Kor'sarro Khan
- Kayvaan Shrike
- Tigurius
- Inceptors
- Infiltrator
- Incursor
- Master Lazarus
- Assault Intercessor
- Calgar
- Repulsor


My point was - word for word - "On the other side you have a big list of Primaris units that are okay, but not "I have to rebuy everything to stay competitive" good."
I agree that Firstborn will be phased out at some point in the future. Not as long as they make enough money to keep them on life support with rules updates, though. And from what we know so far they won't get weaker rules to incentivise buying Primaris.

a_typical_hero wrote:

My point was - word for word - "On the other side you have a big list of Primaris units that are okay, but not "I have to rebuy everything to stay competitive" good."
I agree that Firstborn will be phased out at some point in the future. Not as long as they make enough money to keep them on life support with rules updates, though. And from what we know so far they won't get weaker rules to incentivise buying Primaris.

Infiltrators are top notch. In any case, my point is not that all primaris are OP, rather that they are writen to be superior to first born. This is commenly accepted as very few first born make it to competitive lists. Some units of first born that are still used (e.g. sanguinary guard) oftentimes are there because we haven't seen the primaris equivalent released yet. Grav drop pods are one nerf away from uselesness.

At the end of the day, there are far more "not worth it" first born than primaris units and that is by design. Whatever is not frequently used among primaris is due to bad internal balance across updates, something very common for GW.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Worst case scenario it that the truly vast and now increasingly bloated Firstborn range will go to direct order and anyone wanting them will have to rely on "just" them and the equally vast FW marine range.

The only part I disagree with. For many, that's possibly the best-case scenario. If they're selling them, they're probably supporting them, allowing me to use my marines even longer. Firstborn will phase out (a way better term than I've been using. thx Grey40K), it is a matter of time. Even if they do go that route initially, it may only be a step towards it.

Cap'n Failboat wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Worst case scenario it that the truly vast and now increasingly bloated Firstborn range will go to direct order and anyone wanting them will have to rely on "just" them and the equally vast FW marine range.

The only part I disagree with. For many, that's possibly the best-case scenario. If they're selling them, they're probably supporting them, allowing me to use my marines even longer. Firstborn will phase out (a way better term than I've been using. thx Grey40K), it is a matter of time. Even if they do go that route initially, it may only be a step towards it.

Yeah, I am a forward looking person. Investing in a sinking ship does not appeal to me

My hope is that this is the last of Kirby's BS we see, and that the new management abandons the whole "phasing out" approach

Cap'n Failboat wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Worst case scenario it that the truly vast and now increasingly bloated Firstborn range will go to direct order and anyone wanting them will have to rely on "just" them and the equally vast FW marine range.

The only part I disagree with. For many, that's possibly the best-case scenario. If they're selling them, they're probably supporting them, allowing me to use my marines even longer. Firstborn will phase out (a way better term than I've been using. thx Grey40K), it is a matter of time. Even if they do go that route initially, it may only be a step towards it.

As long as they have stock they will keep them on sale - Sisters were metal and direct order only for what twenty years?

Plus Forgeworld pretty much is Marines and other bits and pieces.

I still don't get how Primaris make old Marines obsolete. Every sane person will use a Bolter Marine as an Intercessor, an Assault Marine as an Assault Intercessor, a Plasma Marine as Helblaster, a sniper scout as Eliminator, a lascannon Marine as lascannon Eliminator, a Biker as a Biker... You get the picture. People did that with beakie Marines for the last 20 years. It's only now while the two lines have rules next to each other that it's hard to use one as the other, but if oldmarines should lose their bespoke rules at some point you use them as other Marines. Only die hard Marine players will be able to tell the difference anyway. It's like Tyranid players can still use their very strange old Nids Warriors as Warriors or people can use their first Edition Orks with spiked helmets as Orks just fine (just take a look at the Ork thread on this page - every one is cool with it and only in tournament settings you might have problems with Bases) or like people use their Pariahs as Lychguard or like I use my second Edition Plague Marines as Plague Marines next to the 8th Edition models despite them being a head shorter than the new ones.

Well, if the game proceeds historically, then oldschool Marines become obsolete as they present the Marines of the dark age,
while Primaris Marines stand for the renaissance.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I still don't get how Primaris make old Marines obsolete. Every sane person will use a Bolter Marine as an Intercessor, an Assault Marine as an Assault Intercessor, a Plasma Marine as Helblaster, a sniper scout as Eliminator, a lascannon Marine as lascannon Eliminator, a Biker as a Biker... You get the picture. People did that with beakie Marines for the last 20 years. It's only now while the two lines have rules next to each other that it's hard to use one as the other, but if oldmarines should lose their bespoke rules at some point you use them as other Marines. Only die hard Marine players will be able to tell the difference anyway. It's like Tyranid players can still use their very strange old Nids Warriors as Warriors or people can use their first Edition Orks with spiked helmets as Orks just fine (just take a look at the Ork thread on this page - every one is cool with it and only in tournament settings you might have problems with Bases) or like people use their Pariahs as Lychguard or like I use my second Edition Plague Marines as Plague Marines next to the 8th Edition models despite them being a head shorter than the new ones.

yep I use my RT era Marines alongside my Primaris - same as I did with newer Marines - I don't mind some size discrepencies - they are not all the same size on the lore. Same as my original battlewagon and Space Orcs.

highwind01 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
If normal marines are not being phased out then show me how many 'old' marine releases there have been since Primaris came out (that isn't some lieutenant version).

Has there been even 1?

If Eldar/Dark Eldar/Harlequins/IG are not being phased out, then show me how many Eldar/Dark Eldar/Harlequins/IG release there have been since Primaris came out.

Has there been even 1?


Subtelty aside:
Most of the old marines kits are rather fresh for GW standards. If you count out the "newly created factions", old marines may even have the most up-to-date model line in the whole 40k universe.
These models are sculptured, the molds a formed, the glossy images for box and advertisment have been designed/painted/printed and this is what makes roughly >90% of the total costs.
The last <10% is using some plastic to print the stuff and then sell it... GW would be utterly stupid to not sell those kits for like another decade.

Eldar :
Howling banshees
Jain zar

Dark eldar:
Drazhar
Incubi

IG:
The various exclusive catachan models and Severina Raine? (i dont follow that army tbh)

So effectively no NEW models, only rescults that even came with nerfs in the case of Jain Zar

10/10

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I still don't get how Primaris make old Marines obsolete. Every sane person will use a Bolter Marine as an Intercessor, an Assault Marine as an Assault Intercessor, a Plasma Marine as Helblaster, a sniper scout as Eliminator, a lascannon Marine as lascannon Eliminator, a Biker as a Biker... You get the picture. People did that with beakie Marines for the last 20 years. It's only now while the two lines have rules next to each other that it's hard to use one as the other, but if oldmarines should lose their bespoke rules at some point you use them as other Marines. Only die hard Marine players will be able to tell the difference anyway. It's like Tyranid players can still use their very strange old Nids Warriors as Warriors or people can use their first Edition Orks with spiked helmets as Orks just fine (just take a look at the Ork thread on this page - every one is cool with it and only in tournament settings you might have problems with Bases) or like people use their Pariahs as Lychguard or like I use my second Edition Plague Marines as Plague Marines next to the 8th Edition models despite them being a head shorter than the new ones.

Well, you can't do that in tournies. And it is not a base issue exclusively.

The reason being that a beakie was still a tactical marine, but now primaris are not just biggie marines.

I would have been totally fine with them releasing modern versions of marines without calling them something different, like they had been doing for decades.

Grey40k wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I still don't get how Primaris make old Marines obsolete. Every sane person will use a Bolter Marine as an Intercessor, an Assault Marine as an Assault Intercessor, a Plasma Marine as Helblaster, a sniper scout as Eliminator, a lascannon Marine as lascannon Eliminator, a Biker as a Biker... You get the picture. People did that with beakie Marines for the last 20 years. It's only now while the two lines have rules next to each other that it's hard to use one as the other, but if oldmarines should lose their bespoke rules at some point you use them as other Marines. Only die hard Marine players will be able to tell the difference anyway. It's like Tyranid players can still use their very strange old Nids Warriors as Warriors or people can use their first Edition Orks with spiked helmets as Orks just fine (just take a look at the Ork thread on this page - every one is cool with it and only in tournament settings you might have problems with Bases) or like people use their Pariahs as Lychguard or like I use my second Edition Plague Marines as Plague Marines next to the 8th Edition models despite them being a head shorter than the new ones.

Well, you can't do that in tournies. And it is not a base issue exclusively.

The reason being that a beakie was still a tactical marine, but now primaris are not just biggie marines.

I would have been totally fine with them releasing modern versions of marines without calling them something different, like they had been doing for decades.

But then you won't sell more of them - they need Marine players to buy a new army not the occassional slightly differerent model.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Grey40k wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I still don't get how Primaris make old Marines obsolete. Every sane person will use a Bolter Marine as an Intercessor, an Assault Marine as an Assault Intercessor, a Plasma Marine as Helblaster, a sniper scout as Eliminator, a lascannon Marine as lascannon Eliminator, a Biker as a Biker... You get the picture. People did that with beakie Marines for the last 20 years. It's only now while the two lines have rules next to each other that it's hard to use one as the other, but if oldmarines should lose their bespoke rules at some point you use them as other Marines. Only die hard Marine players will be able to tell the difference anyway. It's like Tyranid players can still use their very strange old Nids Warriors as Warriors or people can use their first Edition Orks with spiked helmets as Orks just fine (just take a look at the Ork thread on this page - every one is cool with it and only in tournament settings you might have problems with Bases) or like people use their Pariahs as Lychguard or like I use my second Edition Plague Marines as Plague Marines next to the 8th Edition models despite them being a head shorter than the new ones.

Well, you can't do that in tournies. And it is not a base issue exclusively.

The reason being that a beakie was still a tactical marine, but now primaris are not just biggie marines.

I would have been totally fine with them releasing modern versions of marines without calling them something different, like they had been doing for decades.

But then you won't sell more of them - they need Marine players to buy a new army not the occassional slightly differerent model.

But of course, this is exclusively the only purpose of the primaris adventure. No disagreement.

 Mr Morden wrote:

As long as they have stock they will keep them on sale - Sisters were metal and direct order only for what twenty years?
Plus Forgeworld pretty much is Marines and other bits and pieces.

As long as they have stock could be tomorrow or by the end of the year...I'm exaggerating but unless they continue to produce them, they will eventually run out of them.

We're speculating. So yes, maybe they do. There is a difference though. Metal SoB didn't have Sisters of Primaris to fulfill most of their roles in their faction. I don't have hard evidence but it's pretty clear that the various SM chapters are the dominant faction(s), and have been for most of WH40K's history. Eliminating SoB, then or now, would have an effect in an already SM heavy environment. Basically, it'd be a harder ask to remove an entire faction from the game (again) than replacing a pseudo-duplicated line of models.

Maybe FW becomes relegated to HH or they eventually shift focus to Primaris. It's kind of foolish to do the latter when the home office is pumping out highly hyped Primaris models as frequently as they are. Either their own or their parent company's sales would be impacted. I'm guessing that transition will occur as more of the Primaris line comes close to completion. (My personal definition of completion being when Primaris have enough equivalents to fill nearly all firstborn roles)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey40k wrote:
But of course, this is exclusively the only purpose of the primaris adventure. No disagreement.

Consensus? Can't have that. I do agree.

They're a business. Over the five years preceding Primaris they took a 15% cut in gross profit. They're also publically traded with a fiduciary duty to stockholders, that 3% average reduction per year is not a trend those dudes will take sitting down.

You've seen the explosion of Primaris practically everywhere Instead of leaning on 20-year old models saturating personal collections and the second-hand markets, we had to get new stuff. It makes sense. Their numbers show it. They've gone up nearly double the gross income since Primaris. Those numbers at least somewhat prove that much of the community was willing to shell out for them too.

The drastic reduction of my firstborn's use will be lamentable, but I'm fortunate enough to have had a mostly complete pair of chapters for nearly a decade.
We have yet to see how they handle the firstborn's elimination, but I'm sure they'll find a way to avoid a "good" one.
If they do make entire model line replacements a regular occurrence, I will cross over and stand with your disapproval. This first instance after 20+ years of production, despite affecting me more than the usual player, just isn't worth being so vehemently against it.

Kayback wrote:

A pre 2010 phone is likely running GSM, something Verizon and TMobile is turning off by the end of 2020 squatting all those feature phone. Soooooo...

Comparison still wrong. In 2020 phones that are exactly like pre 2010 ones (no cameras, no internet, etc) are still produced because there's a significant market for them, just think of old people that can't possibly learn how to use a phone with touch screen.

Tycho wrote:


No. Squatting an army means that army literally no longer exists. Period. Ending a model line is just that. Ending a model line. Can Bretonnian players play AoS? No. What about Tomb Kings? No. What about .... Squats in 40k? No. Ending Oldmarines means a model line will no longer have active support and said models will move to Legends where they will be legal for most games. At that point, will you still be able to play Imperial Marines? Yep. With your old models OR with the new ones. So I really can't go with the line of thought that says this is a full-on squatting.

At the moment I don't have an alternative if old marines get squatted. There's is no SW primaris line, only primaris that can be played as SW but they have nothing of SW. Just marines in light blue/grey. As I said my army isn't SM and forcing me to play SM actually means that my army doesn't exist anymore.

I don't care if they are still called SW, current primaris have nothing to do with SW. Or BA or DA. It's just like bretonnian and tomb kings dudes that can play their models as free people or some undead faction, models still legal but their army actually squatted.

Its fair enough if you choose to or not to use the models for a Marine range or even a Marine sub faction such as Space Wolves.

I refuse to use the current Wolfen, Santa Logan, Wolves on Wolves, all the mini-flyers and centurions - i also won;t be getting a numebr of the Primaris as I donlt iek the models.

Thats my choice - same as yours.

Primaris painted/modeled as Space Wolf Models are Space Wolf models - they even indulge us SW players with a super special Primaris upgrade pack to make them more Wolfy. Something that no other non Marine sub faction gets.

if you play in tournaments - yes you have to obey the rules and use the actual models.
Most other places if you have clear proxies for the current range you will often be ok - especially if you are playign with friends - same as people use for other armies and have done for decades - even some tournaments use proxies.

No sign of Forgeworld becoming less Marine focussed and where again Space Wolves have another huge range for us.

Cap'n Failboat wrote:

Consensus? Can't have that. I do agree.

They're a business. Over the five years preceding Primaris they took a 15% cut in gross profit. They're also publically traded with a fiduciary duty to stockholders, that 3% average reduction per year is not a trend those dudes will take sitting down.

You've seen the explosion of Primaris practically everywhere Instead of leaning on 20-year old models saturating personal collections and the second-hand markets, we had to get new stuff. It makes sense. Their numbers show it. They've gone up nearly double the gross income since Primaris. Those numbers at least somewhat prove that much of the community was willing to shell out for them too.

The drastic reduction of my firstborn's use will be lamentable, but I'm fortunate enough to have had a mostly complete pair of chapters for nearly a decade.
We have yet to see how they handle the firstborn's elimination, but I'm sure they'll find a way to avoid a "good" one.
If they do make entire model line replacements a regular occurrence, I will cross over and stand with your disapproval. This first instance after 20+ years of production, despite affecting me more than the usual player, just isn't worth being so vehemently against it.

I think it is an extremely bad idea to try to put us, consumers, in the shoes of a giant company like GW. Let them do the business, we do the playing and collecting.

If they cannot manage their business in a profitable manner without "phasing out" miniatures, which is a move, then for all I care they can go under; then they would make room for someone who knows how to do business better.

Grey40k wrote:
I think it is an extremely bad idea to try to put us, consumers, in the shoes of a giant company like GW. Let them do the business, we do the playing and collecting.

I think this is a horrible notion wherever I encounter it - just because you don't do something professionally, doesn't mean you shouldn't have the ability to provide constructive criticism.

1 - you might well have the requisite knowledge, some GW customers own and/or run businesses too.
2 - professional knowledge isn't always needed to discern quality. Or to use a popular quote - "don't p*@$ in my cup and tell me it's coffee".
3 - if this applies both ways, and GW aren't expected to know what it's like to play and collect, how can they know what we want?!
4 - "you don't know what you're talking about, let us handle this" is often an excuse to hide things that people really should know about.

 Super Ready wrote:

Grey40k wrote:
I think it is an extremely bad idea to try to put us, consumers, in the shoes of a giant company like GW. Let them do the business, we do the playing and collecting.

I think this is a horrible notion wherever I encounter it - just because you don't do something professionally, doesn't mean you shouldn't have the ability to provide constructive criticism.

1 - you might well have the requisite knowledge, some GW customers own and/or run businesses too.
2 - professional knowledge isn't always needed to discern quality. Or to use a popular quote - "don't p*@$ in my cup and tell me it's coffee".
3 - if this applies both ways, and GW aren't expected to know what it's like to play and collect, how can they know what we want?!
4 - "you don't know what you're talking about, let us handle this" is often an excuse to hide things that people really should know about.

In a public forum obviously you can post whatever you want within reason. My point was that trying to justify their actions (specially when they hurt us, consumers) by saying they need to do whatever because otherwise they might not make a profit is bad business for us and likely misinformed.

The rest you say is, I am sorry, besides the point.

 Mr Morden wrote:


Thats my choice - same as yours.

Absolutely, I'll definitely manage to play anyway. I get that GW is interested in making money, I'm just disappointed that my collection of models is going to be phased out. I'm not gonna make a riot out of it, I'll simply stop buying SW/SM models.

It's just that an entire list of legends could be hard to enjoy since legends don't get any attention, it may be difficult to have a fairly balanced game with a full legend list. And those who say the army is not going, well any entire pre-2017 collection is going and at the moment is going to be replaced with something that completely lacks the theme/vibe of the army and doesn't have the same amount of details of classic kits. Getting 30+ different dedicated SW heads vs the just 3 primaris SW heads is a perfect example of that. For an Imperial Fist, Salamander, Iron Hands... dude those primaris may actually be "improved" models, for SW, DA, BA (at least) they definitely aren't.

Grey, I'm... still not sure I entirely understand your point then. Are you saying it would be a bad idea for GW to come right out and say, "we did this because we need to make money"? Or are you saying that's what they SHOULD do?
I have no argument either way, it'd be refreshing in some ways if they did but no doubt damaging in other ways.

 Super Ready wrote:
Grey, I'm... still not sure I entirely understand your point then. Are you saying it would be a bad idea for GW to come right out and say, "we did this because we need to make money"? Or are you saying that's what they SHOULD do?
I have no argument either way, it'd be refreshing in some ways if they did but no doubt damaging in other ways.

I often see people defend companies policies on the basis that it is the lesser evil to keep the product out. Examples I have seen include defending P2W and microtrans monetization, DLCs, and here "phasing out" (since you guys hate obsolescence) of miniature ranges.

I do not think it is a good idea for consumers to engage in company white knighting; most of those commercial strategies are markedly anti consumer and its necessity is debatable. True, microtrans and primaris + WHFB may have contributed to amazing profits for those companies, but they most likely weren't "necessary" to keep those business viable. Defending them is throwing stones into our own roof, some weird (IMO) consumer masochism.

Ahh! NOW I understand, thank you. And to an extent, I do agree (depending a lot on the business and the outcomes, of course, context is always important).
I will say though that sometimes I say things as an example of why a company might have done something, but that doesn't automatically mean I'm supporting it, even if I don't decry it while doing so. I suspect the same is true of others here.

I don't understand how saying it isn't anti-consumer for a company to produce new items to sell is white knighting.

No one is forcing you to buy Primaris. No one is forcing you to buy GW at all. You are electing to engage in a hobby. A hobby run by a company thats in business to make money. Stating this fact is not "white knighting" a company it's telling you to not be ridiculous in your expectations.

The old line of Marines may be nearing termination. Sucks but it's true. This isn't the first army its happened to, won't be the last. Trying to start a Crusade to, what? Get them to say sorry? Get them to stop doing it? What exactly is the end goal here of people complaining?

The new line of Primaris allowed a couple of things. Better scale, more modern sculpts, new stat lines, and new units that are shaking up decades old tactics that were only changing because of the revised rules. Yet people are carrying on like GW just insulted their mothers, then demanded people pay for that privilege.

And here's the kicker, so far NOTHING has been proven to show Old Marines are going away. They might be. They really really might be, but people are arguing like it's a fait acompli and not something that *might* happen in the future.

Kayback wrote:


The new line of Primaris allowed a couple of things.

Kayback wrote:

Better scale

Debatable, IMHO they look awful and too big. Little to no details to customize them to specific chapters, especially standalone ones.

Kayback wrote:

more modern sculpts

True, but also sisters, necron warriors or incubi new releases are more modern sculpts, and they didn't replace/invalidate anything. If the purpose of primaris was having more modern sculpts GW could have just released updated classic marines kits.

Kayback wrote:

new stat lines

Not related to primaris. In fact I see classic marines getting 2W, HB getting 2D, etc... GW could have just updated the rules/datasheets without releasing a new line of models.

Kayback wrote:

and new units that are shaking up decades old tactics that were only changing because of the revised rules

Most of those "new" units are exactly the same ones with slightly different rules/datasheets. Tactics involving primaris aren't that different to classic old marines.

Complaining on the internet have no purpose of course, so is getting excited about new stuff. What's the point of discussing stuff that isn't strictly related to tactics or the hobby part anyway? That's what forums are there for, discussing things, aren't they?

Grey40k wrote:
I think it is an extremely bad idea to try to put us, consumers, in the shoes of a giant company like GW. Let them do the business, we do the playing and collecting.

I think it's an extremely bad idea to demonize a company without at least exploring the circumstances which motivate their actions, even if you still disagree with them. It's also very disingenuous to equate a single model range's replacement, over several years, to their standard operating procedure. I often see people attack an entity or individual trying to make them out to be some kind of evil villain twirling their mustache while thinking of how they can gak their base (mostly in political arenas). As I said, if they did make it common, I'd be completely against them on this matter. I'm already not a fan of how high they raise prices on kits when they do, how they balance the factions (power creep), and the relative neglect other factions tend to receive. The app debacle is another one, but I'm told they're changing it and don't have those particulars.

Grey40k wrote:

If they cannot manage their business in a profitable manner without "phasing out" miniatures, which is a move, then for all I care they can go under; then they would make room for someone who knows how to do business better.

[I assume gak is a catchall four-letter replacement. ??]
You're okay with them going under, gak I wouldn't be too concerned if they went under, but few businesses are going to lay there and die. SM 2.0 was the response to their circumstance. Obviously, removing firstborn will alienate several players, this thread is clear evidence of it. We'll have to see how the eventual removal plays out, but the numbers prove the release was a popular one and by 6-years (or 9 if they don't do it until 11th...maybe longer) of adding Primaris to collections, most players won't be losing their entire army, limiting the backlash. That's on top of how long we've had our minis prior to Primaris' introduction.

As for other companies, that's partly on us, the collectors/players. WarmaHordes and Malifaux are fun and even has an interesting backstory. There are others, I have no experience with, that have good models and maybe have decent rulesets, as well as probably having a more affordable entry cost. On the whole, most of us just seem to be unwilling to transition.

Grey40k wrote:
I often see people defend a company's policies on the basis that it is the lesser evil to keep the product out. Examples I have seen include defending P2W and micro trans monetization, DLCs, and here "phasing out" (since you guys hate obsolescence) of miniature ranges.

I'm actually with you on what you introduced in this statement. The thing is, those are these company's predominant strategies. They are specifically designing their entire game around them, from start to finish. They are expressly locking out sections of games that are part of the code and should've been part of the original release. Once again, if GW proves that to be their new SOP, I'd be against it.

Grey40k wrote:
I do not think it is a good idea for consumers to engage in company white knighting; most of those commercial strategies are markedly anti-consumer and its necessity is debatable. True, microtrans and primaris + WHFB may have contributed to amazing profits for those companies, but they most likely weren't "necessary" to keep those business viable. Defending them is throwing stones into our own roof, some weird (IMO) consumer masochism.

The white knighting...yea. If that's what you want to call it, so be it. I'm not blindly throwing my lot in with GW though. I'm considering the value for my money that I (and many, many others) have had, their situation, their responsibilities, and the various factors that affect them. With the reducing sales, 13M in net profit sounds good for one of us but that is absolutely pitiful for an international company with significant market share. If GW immediately Primarises and phases out more factions in the middle of or after the Space Marines, especially with the current numbers they have, it would be another story.

I'd prefer to rarely ever have to spend money on models and I have other criticisms of GW. I just don't blindly rail against everything that is less consumer-friendly*. They're not a charity or passion project. Merely surviving is not a business goal, and expecting it to be just doesn't make sense.

*I used that just to counter your term. It's weaker than this situation but anti-consumer covers everything from just selling at a pence profit to conflated with stuff like quintupling the cost of life-sustaining medication. If you don't want to spend any more money on models, I'm not going to hate. You don't even need to justify it with anti-consumer practices. Related to my value statements...if it's worth it to us, we buy. Otherwise, we look elsewhere.




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 Blackie wrote:
Debatable, IMHO they look awful and too big. Little to no details to customize them to specific chapters, especially standalone ones.

I can't ever truly argue the aesthetics due to subjectivity. Personally, I do like Mk10 except for the extra plates above the knee and shoulder and would prefer beakies. I really don't like most of the other infantry though. As notes on the scale, the IRL size is definitely easier for me to paint. For in-game comparative scale, firstborn were definitely small vs standard IG, but we know that there were inconsistencies all over the place.

GW already toyed with soft versions of "phasing out" in the past with various WHFB and WH40K armies, along with the long list of unsupported specialist games (epic, gorkamorka, space hulk, now apocalypse).
It just stepped it up a lot with the End Times of WHFB, selling expensive supplements for WHFB and then straight out nuking it. From then on, we saw common trends in both Fantasy (AoS now) and 40k.

Primaris and WHFB are a straight up anti-consumer moves; they made customers worse off.

They could have integrated WHFB armies into AoS rules, and the same for primaris being a very obvious upgrade rules wise to old marines. Why not call primaris simply a new type of tactical armor and be done with it, like they had done for 2 decades? The obvious reason is that they took away support for the purpose of selling new models better. Of the many options they had to introduce new models, this one hurts consumers (anti-consumer).

Stating that they are for profit does not diminish any of this. There are many moves that for profit companies do that hurt consumers, and that's why there is extensive regulation of markets (from anti trust to quality controls). One of the practices that received a lot attention is precisely "planned obsolescence", with countries starting to regulate this much more strictly (e.g. France). Quite obviously GW is "retiring" miniatures that could have had a longer useful lifespan by using their hold on the IP and the "official" rules; in technological products this is known as "planned obsolescence", I guess here we can call it "rules obsolescence". The name is irrelevant, it is the act of manipulating (shortening) the lifespan of a product to get consumers to purchase more. GW has been using its market dominance to do many things that are anti-consumer (e.g. higher than competitive prices).

As for whether they "needed" to do this, and the advise to GTFO if this is not something I like, both are completely irrelevant to the matter at hand. I do not need you to remind me that I can take most of my business elsewhere, and I do not think you have any particular inside on "how needed" this was from a business viability perspective.

I swear I am not salty at you

To be frank, if you want less anti-consumer practices, don't play GW games.

At the moment I don't have an alternative if old marines get squatted. There's is no SW primaris line, only primaris that can be played as SW but they have nothing of SW. Just marines in light blue/grey. As I said my army isn't SM and forcing me to play SM actually means that my army doesn't exist anymore.

I don't care if they are still called SW, current primaris have nothing to do with SW. Or BA or DA. It's just like bretonnian and tomb kings dudes that can play their models as free people or some undead faction, models still legal but their army actually squatted.

And notice how, at the moment, nothing has been removed.

Like I said, best guess is, 5-10 years from the date of the introduction of the original Primaris. That still gives a ton of time. By then, I'm sure they will have actual Wolfenwulf McMurderwulf the Space viking available in Primaris form, or, at the very least, upgrade kits for existing Primaris. You are upset about something that isn't happening (actual removal of Space Wolves), and probably won't happen. If they came out today and said Old Marines are no more and we're done with the Primaris line, you would have a point. But you have jumped the gun by 5 or 6 years IMO. Once this wave is complete, they will likely do a Primaris release for the snowflake units as well. That, OR they will just say certain units aren't getting the Primaris treatment. But yeah, by the time the final call is made, I'm sure they will have set up proper alternatives for the snowflakes as well.

I don't understand how saying it isn't anti-consumer for a company to produce new items to sell is white knighting.

To put it as gently I can, of all the negative stereotypes that exist about gamers, the one that has wrung true for me over the years is that they tend to be a rather entitled bunch. I've collected marines since RTB01. I have thousands of them. I have gotten years and years out of them. I've been expecting this day for some time. Eventually, I knew they'd update them and probably make what I have obsolete. Even if you got into marines recently, if you get another 5-10 years out of that purchase, you will have gotten your money's worth, but that's not how a lot of gamers see it. I mean I get it, people love their old models and they want them to be relevant forever, but literally nothing works like that. I mean heck, look at Orks. My 2nd ed Ork army is largely "on the shelf" as the entire model line has basically been drastically updated since then. It happens. But gamers often feel they're "owed" something. Every other business in the world updates things and has products go offline or become obsolete. But some gamers seem to feel that spending say, $500 on something and getting 5-10 years of use out of it is somehow anti-consumer. Just watch. Someone will be along to do math for my example and complain that it somehow isn't a good value and that, compared to "xyz" thing, GW is anti-consumer and pure evil. GW does engage in practices that could be labeled anti-consumer, but this isn't one. There are a million other examples of this attitude as well - local LGS struggling and starts charging a nominal fee for table use? "RAAAAAR! I AM DA CUSTOOMER! I SHUD PLAY 4 FREE! I'M TAKING BIZNESS ELSWARE!" and then, when that store goes under - "Why can't game stores remain open in my area?" Oh, and heaven forbid you should point out that playing for free at a LGS and buying all your stuff elsewhere isn't cool ... that almost always creates a level 10 rage storm. lol

IDK. I get being bummed out about it, but I know I wasn't buying any new marines any time soon, and I'm not the only one. I feel the same way about the Old World in WF. I was crushed when I learned they were axing it, and I'm not really keen on the new fluff at all. BUT, at the same time, was I going to buy a WFB army? No. Was I spending a ton of money on books and fluff, etc? No. So I can see why they made the call. Similar thing here. The marine models (mostly the older ones) look kind of silly next to a lot of things in the game. I have Guardsmen that are bigger than some marines. My collection of Old Marines is pretty much complete and has been for years. This is true of many marine players and also likely explains why, when GW did the supply boxes to clear out inventory that was no longer selling - the bulk of it was Old Marines. Even if they had just released the new stuff as "True Scale Marines" and not gone the Primaris route, this day was coming. There's no way around it. Now, if/when the actual end of old marines happens, and it goes down like you can still by them on a Monday, and then on Friday of that week it's announced they're dead, THEN we can all yell about anti-consumer practices, but nothing like that has even come close to happening yet for marines.

 Blackie wrote:


At the moment I don't have an alternative if old marines get squatted. There's is no SW primaris line, only primaris that can be played as SW but they have nothing of SW. Just marines in light blue/grey. As I said my army isn't SM and forcing me to play SM actually means that my army doesn't exist anymore.

I don't care if they are still called SW, current primaris have nothing to do with SW. Or BA or DA. It's just like bretonnian and tomb kings dudes that can play their models as free people or some undead faction, models still legal but their army actually squatted.

You mean the fur bits, wolf skulls, and what not?

They already started on it, more will come.

https://bloodybeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/PrimarisSpaceWolvesArmy.jpg


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If you mean characters like Ragnar, Logan and such, I do admit I'm shocked none of them have been primaris-ified less so you haven't gotten even more named HQ's who started Primaris.


It's going to be a hoot to see them figure out how to fluff Bjorn and Murderfang into Redemptors.

You see, Bjorn, Murderfang, we think if we do this surgery you'll be a real live boy again.

Oops, we were wrong, now you're in a new Redemptor Dreadnaught sarcophagus because you're primaris, but you're still almost dead. Oh yeah, no more hitching a ride on Stormravens.

Oh yeah, we have Stormravens you could have ridden around on now.

Why is Murderfang looking at me like that?

Breton wrote:


They already started on it, more will come.

https://bloodybeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/PrimarisSpaceWolvesArmy.jpg

Do you think those dudes look like proper SW? They're SM painted in light blue

At the moment the SW upgrade for primaris is a joke, basically 10ish shoulder pads and 3 heads. No dedicated backpacks and little details. Weapons are the same one than any other primaris. Lol. The grey hunters box alone has 20ish heads, 20ish shoulder pads, 5 (IIRC) backpacks, customized weapons with built-in wolfy details, torsos and legs also with built-in wolfy details, plus several little wolfy bitz to add. And that's only the troop kits, many other boxes have tons of bitz that are perfectly interchangeable with those that I listed.

Maybe more will come, I hope it since right now I really struggle to see the SW theme in primaris models. Give me 20ish bare viking looking heads, a dedicated SW dread, a dedicated SW intercessor box, wulfen and TWC primaris equivalents, an extra couple of SW primaris HQs and we could talk.

 Blackie wrote:

Breton wrote:


They already started on it, more will come.

https://bloodybeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/PrimarisSpaceWolvesArmy.jpg

Do you think those dudes look like proper SW? They're SM painted in light blue

At the moment the SW upgrade for primaris is a joke, basically 10ish shoulder pads and 3 heads. No dedicated backpacks and little details. Weapons are the same one than any other primaris. Lol. The grey hunters box alone has 20ish heads, 20ish shoulder pads, 5 (IIRC) backpacks, customized weapons with built-in wolfy details, torsos and legs also with built-in wolfy details, plus several little wolfy bitz to add. And that's only the troop kits, many other boxes have tons of bitz that are perfectly interchangeable with those that I listed.

Maybe more will come, I hope it since right now I really struggle to see the SW theme in primaris models. Give me 20ish bare viking looking heads, a dedicated SW dread, a dedicated SW intercessor box, wulfen and TWC primaris equivalents, an extra couple of SW primaris HQs and we could talk.

Personally I was hoping most of the Wolfy Wolf stuff faded away - like the nightmare it was. Space wolves started as a little more than colour and IMO has devolved more and more over the decades.

They look like 2nd ed Space Wolves to me.

The end is coming for Firstborn marines, they've almost filled the Primaris line out with the primary units they'll need. Characters can always come later, as can customization for the various Chapters.

I think a lot of the introduction of Primaris was about simplifying the SKU range, rules and options for the entire marine line - there's too many options and boxed sets to be good for the line, and "too much" for the rule designers to work on every time they update a rule (or ruleset).

I give Oldmarines about three to five years of life left at this point - on the outside. Pretty sure by the time 10E drops the old marine model line will be gone - at best people will be using them as proxies for the Primaris line.

While Grey40K appears to, and I strongly, believe that the phase-out is inevitable, some have made a fair point that it hasn't happened yet and it might not ever. However, the aspects of parts of this back 'n forth assume the removal as a given. Perhaps we should start a new thread.
-b-

Grey40k wrote:
Just to pop on your notifications @Grey40k

WHFB was a dead game 10-years prior to the system's discontinuance. I don't know if you've tried them, but AoS is not WHFB. It is a modified 40K ruleset in a more medieval setting. WHFB support was dropped as a game entirely. The reason many people associate the two is that the lore of the new is built upon the ashes of the old, and a number of models were ported over.

I didn't add WHFB's death as consideration precisely because AoS is such a clearly different game. With that in mind, does allowing the use of any models make GW a benevolent company? No. Could they have added more models to the ported equivalents? Sure, but not every unit fits AoS's design. Is WHFB-to-AoS anything like the phase-out of firstborn. To me, not even remotely. Any community that still has WHFB players can play the "current" version of WHFB with the legitimacy of all its models for those rules.

-b-

To be clear; I'll explicitly state that this, and other things they do, is anti-consumer. The definition is horrendously broad and I can't think of a company that doesn't have something that falls under the anti-consumer label. Where I'm disagreeing with you is the degree. The way you've been arguing the matter is as if GW is a nefarious actor constantly ing the consumer or that its anti-consumer actions equate to other companies that affect a consumer's ability to live in modern societies. Maybe that's just how I'm reading it though. I've already stated my disagreements with GW and game devs, but the expectation to use models forever is just not reasonable, not given the pre and post-Primaris timeframes.

That they are a publically traded for-profit company that was facing steady sales decline, with oversaturated product lines within the community, is not the end-all-be-all but it's not something that someone expressing their resentment should ignore. At the very least, it shapes how/why they make decisions.

I concede that I can't prove, without a shadow of a doubt, that this course of action was "needed". I can look at the publically available data, compare it to their actions, and consider related factors to curb or amplify my own outrage. Data for a specific faction's kits of a specific GW game isn't available (or is too difficult for me to locate). Without that data to contradict the conclusions that can be drawn by what is available, I am left unhappy but recognize where they're coming from.

-b-

As to GTFO, that's not what I'm saying. Until Indomitus I haven't purchased GW models since ~2011 nor have I ever paid retail price (online or the LGS I choose to go to has a discount for those of us in a certain public category). Playing the game spending only what you want/need to is prudent. Aside from throwing some support to the LGS if you frequent it, I see nothing wrong with limiting your spending. I merely meant that if GW doesn't offer an individual enough value for money, they go to another game/hobby or halt further spending. People come and go, but it is evident that the value hasn't become so unbalanced that a vast majority of players have moved on. We'll see if that changes when firstborn become paperweights, though I'm somewhat confident that it won't.

 Blackie wrote:
/Do you think those dudes look like proper SW? They're SM painted in light blue

At the moment the SW upgrade for primaris is a joke, basically 10ish shoulder pads and 3 heads. No dedicated backpacks and little details. Weapons are the same one than any other primaris. Lol. The grey hunters box alone has 20ish heads, 20ish shoulder pads, 5 (IIRC) backpacks, customized weapons with built-in wolfy details, torsos and legs also with built-in wolfy details, plus several little wolfy bitz to add. And that's only the troop kits, many other boxes have tons of bitz that are perfectly interchangeable with those that I listed.

Maybe more will come, I hope it since right now I really struggle to see the SW theme in primaris models. Give me 20ish bare viking looking heads, a dedicated SW dread, a dedicated SW intercessor box, wulfen and TWC primaris equivalents, an extra couple of SW primaris HQs and we could talk.

There are so, so many armies that could see some real releases before a well-supported Marine line gets like a half-dozen kits tooled. The SW line has so many parts to work with (as you mentioned), it's ridiculous. Just kitbash some extra pelts etc.

SW have like a dozen substantial kits that in many cases just exist to be cosmetic differences from their regular counterparts, almost all of which are relatively new kits, and have like dozen special characters too. CSM currently have 2/4 iconic cult units and most of their subfactions without models that have seen updates in the past ~20 years, and probably collectively around as many special characters as SW. IG have lost all but about 1.5 of their lines. Eldar haven't had a real kit (just an awkward conversion pack) to represent one of their core troops since literally 2nd edition, and their entire model subfaction differentiation consists of special characters, many of which are ancient.

I get you want new toys now, but SW are far from poorly supported.

 Blackie wrote:
Do you think those dudes look like proper SW? They're SM painted in light blue

TBF, they look like 90% of pre-Primaris SW units available and models were generally just SM with a paint job, wolfey bits, and rules differences. Yes, the "upgrade" sprue needs waaaay better expansion. Yes, lack of SW specific units would reduce the army's character. No, I don't want the abnormal three FF chapters to become represented as all the codex compliant ones are.

Named characters, unique looking HQs, and the Wulfen are fair necessities. Fen/Cyber wolves can continue as is but aren't commonly used (maybe upgrade to unmounted T-Wolves?). At the same time, TWC and Logan Claus are simply ridiculous (as much as I love using TWC). Units like the fliers and shield-wielding dreadnoughts weren't necessary for their character, and feel more like just being different for the sake of it.

Reiterating; there's time to get these things done. Speculating again; they're probably not going to press forward with a phase-out prior to releasing/close to releasing the necessary missing kits. It's worth considering that many of the SW unique units weren't available to us for years, but I'll counter myself with giving us new units drastically readjusts our expectations of a SW army.

I don't know this sounds a lot, like GW just makes people buy the 9th ed sm book, even if they don't want to play sm, then sells them supplements that add the supposably missing stuff, followed by a codex, all sprinkled by CAs and other paid FAQs. If GW was EA I would fully expect them to do something like put some SW rule in to the sm codex, and then make the SW supplement/codex digital only. This way anyone who wants to play SW would not only have to buy the codex, but also pay for the sub, because there would be no other legal way to get the rules.

I believe that GW is phasing out the old Space Marines but not for the same reason as most people on this thread.(If someone already mentioned this, sorry) My opinion as to why GW is phasing out the old line of Space Marines, has more to do with the lack of IP protection that they lost, and less because not enough "Timmy's" and "Bobby's" were buying miniatures.(GW's competition for Timmy's money comes in the form of other products like video games, smart phones, etc., and most new customers rarely care about models that preceded the year of their birth, let alone before they entered the hobby)

Ten years ago, GW acted more or less like a monopoly in my opinion, and certainly did price things like they were.(and still do) Now that their IP is at risk of "copy cats" and "IP Pirates," my guess is that they are changing their products to combat that. Look at the timeline In 2013 Chapterhouse won their case, and as far as I know it took them until November of 2014 to get everything fully settled, including appeals, legal maneuvering, etc. In May of 2017, GW puts out a brand new Space Marine, but it is not a Space Marine. It is a completely new model and a completely new name that I am sure is trademarked by GW, in the span of 18 months(Edit: 30 months, sorry for not using math) which may be about how long it takes from the C-Suite to say "Make it so" to full production. Now GW can go on with their almost monopoly and can sue anyone that they think is a threat with more legal muscle as this is their complete creation.

This is also my theory as to why WFB is now gone along with most of the old models. WFB was very easy for upstarts to either make similar models. A defendant could simply point to any number of fantasy novels and say that their inspiration was that, and be laughed out of court by GW. This is not including the historical armies that can be human armies in WFB. Thus GW destroyed WFB and changed it to the monstrosity of aos* that we see now. They can protect aos better than the old WFB.

Maybe I am a little too cynical of GW these days, however I doubt it. So like all of my old WFB armies, as GW drops more and more of their old line for the above or whatever reason, I will buy less and less of their models. I'm down to two armies that I can find in the aos line that I can still find for my old armies. Either way I don't care what they do with their new line of Primaris models, I wont be buying them. Just be lucky that GW does not blow up the whole universe and make it into the Age of Guillemon, or whatever you call him.

* - age of sigmar does not deserve capital lettering.

Grey40k wrote:

I think it is an extremely bad idea to try to put us, consumers, in the shoes of a giant company like GW. Let them do the business, we do the playing and collecting.

You rant an awful lot for someone who holds that opinion. But it's really easy....
*Play the game as long as you find it fun. If you're not having fun? Quit.
*Buy/build/paint the minis if you like them.
*Hope for rules to support the minis you've got (assuming your playing).
**And, VERY important, develop actual friendships with some people who like the same games etc as you do. That way? When your favorite company eventually does screw things up to the point you no longer buy from them? (or they fade out - of business, popularity, or both - as so many companies/games do) You can keep right on gaming & not be beholden to the tourney scene, the current edition, or people showing up at the local shop/club.

On the phasing out of classic marines. Maybe someday. But that day isn't here in 9e.

Grey40k wrote:
If they cannot manage their business in a profitable manner without "phasing out" miniatures, which is a move, then for all I care they can go under; then they would make room for someone who knows how to do business better.

LOL. Say whatever you like about GW, even considering that dark WHFB 8e & 40k 6th/7th period (and that odd moment when AoS lacked pts....), but they do know their business. Certainly better than you do. It's why they're still here while & why they're so big.