So, I have noticed every thread that has any relation to power armor what so ever results in a conversation about Marines taking up too much design space. How sub-factions of marines shouldn't exist. Or how anything wearing power armor anywhere should be consolidated into a small amount of datasheets (wulfen can use Van Vet data sheets, TWC can use Biker datasheets and etc etc etc).
So I have decided to make this thread so people stop derailing other ones. Please, feel free to discuss and talk about Marines taking up too much design space here instead of making every other thread about this topic. It is frustrating to argue about why your faction or sub faction should even exist or why your new release should even exist in every thread instead of talking about the OP or thread topic itself. The arguments tend to be the same and counter arguments tend to be scoffed at.
I figure here, you can discuss and list all the reasons why marines take up too much design space, all your individual grievances with marines focus is taking away from your own faction and even how the preexistence of certain subfactions/factions alone will detract too much attention from your own faction
Enjoy this thread and discuss the problems with marines and their players here. I wont be participating much here. But with your own space for this topic we can keep it out of literally every single other thread that mentions power armor at all.
You may think this thread will throw water on it but instead it will act as an accelerant... or at least provide a distiller for more vitriol to spread.
All I will say on this topic is that I'd be far less objectionable to Marine's getting the lion's share of releases and design space if other armies weren't also half-arsed and/or completely neglected as well.
You can often see a clear gap in terms of a codex for an army that the writer plays and cares about, and an army that he has no interest in and may even dislike it.
Having an unfun army is often worse than having a weak army (though there can certainly be some overlap between them). And if an already half-arsed codex is left to stagnate while Marines continue to get supplement after supplement, it feels like adding insult to injury.
Likewise, I can accept Marines getting more releases than other factions (to be clear, I'm not saying that this *should* be the case, rather it's merely something I can tolerate).
However, when you have armies like Dark Eldar that have lost swathes of units due to the 'no model, no rules' policy, then to neglect their anaemic range for a decade whilst vomiting new (often redundant) Marine kits from every orifice certainly doesn't east any feelings of resentment one might hold towards Marines.
I think there are two factors at work. One is obviously sales. Marines sell more so they focus more on them. That can be sort of true but can turn into a self fulfilling prophecy. The other factor is harder to fix from outside even through an uptick in sales for neglected factions. It seems like there is more work given to Marines with both sculpting and writing but is that because of a company directive or is it because the sculptors and writers prefer sculpting and writing about Space Marines? I think that if people in studio were passionate about a xenos faction then that faction would get the same level of focus. How do you fix that though? Does it need to be fixed?
Brotherjanus wrote: It seems like there is more work given to Marines with both sculpting and writing but is that because of a company directive or is it because the sculptors and writers prefer sculpting and writing about Space Marines? I think that if people in studio were passionate about a xenos faction then that faction would get the same level of focus. How do you fix that though? Does it need to be fixed?
As to whether it needs to be fixed, it absolutely does. Because otherwise we end up in precisely this situation with all Marines all the time.
As to how to fix it, two possibilities come to mind:
1) Factor it into the hiring process for new sculptors and writers. I mean, if near enough your entire sculpting and writing team are only interested in modelling and writing Marines, then hiring yet more people who only want to model/write Marines seems rather redundant. It's fine for them to be interested in Marines - just so long as they also have a significant interest and enthusiasm for Xeno armies as well. Preferably for those Xeno armies that have seen nothing but neglect for years.
2) They could try making existing members of the team each take up a couple of Xeno faction. Have them read the relevant lore, assemble the models, play the armies etc. Hopefully some interest in those armies might rub off in the process.
Alternatively, if they find playing Xenos to be a dull and unexciting experience, maybe ask them how they think actual Xeno players feel?
vipoid wrote: All I will say on this topic is that I'd be far less objectionable to Marine's getting the lion's share of releases and design space if other armies weren't also half-arsed and/or completely neglected as well.
You can often see a clear gap in terms of a codex for an army that the writer plays and cares about, and an army that he has no interest in and may even dislike it.
Having an unfun army is often worse than having a weak army (though there can certainly be some overlap between them). And if an already half-arsed codex is left to stagnate while Marines continue to get supplement after supplement, it feels like adding insult to injury.
Likewise, I can accept Marines getting more releases than other factions (to be clear, I'm not saying that this *should* be the case, rather it's merely something I can tolerate).
However, when you have armies like Dark Eldar that have lost swathes of units due to the 'no model, no rules' policy, then to neglect their anaemic range for a decade whilst vomiting new (often redundant) Marine kits from every orifice certainly doesn't east any feelings of resentment one might hold towards Marines.
Yeah. Space Marines getting a lot of stuff is fine-but other armies need support too.
Hell, the current Space Wolves Index has 28 datasheets. (12 are unique characters.)
Nurgle Daemons have 15 datasheets. (3 are unique characters and 3 are generic Daemons capable of being taken as Nurgle.)
One would assume that the faction more in need of new datasheets would get them-but that's not the case, for GW.
It's frustrating. I hope you, Type40, can understand that and sympathize.
If the shootiest/sneakiest/fightiest/speediest armies in the game are marines in yellow, black, red, white armour, respectively, then they occupy too much of the rules design space.
The issue with forcing creative people to do something is you sometimes end up with a worse product. To really get a good codex or a good series of models is for the person doing them to really like the material and want to see good things happen with it. I read awhile ago that the person who did an older edition Tyranid codex really loved them and it showed in the rules. When it came time for a new codex it was given to someone that didn't like them and we ended up with a stripped down army that didn't feel like it should. Perhaps they should put out a call to sculptors and writers for specific projects and have them compete to get them.
harlokin wrote: If the shootiest/sneakiest/fightiest/speediest armies in the game are marines in yellow, black, red, white armour, respectively, then they occupy too much of the rules design space.
Honestly, the new Morkai dogs are basically what a WE Berzerk should be sans the pistol and more melee... but he
The Eradicators are just plainly better then SoB meltas or firedragons...
Why field an obliterator when aggressors or the former do it better for cheaper...
Veterans of the long war, this 10000 years and some bastards with every trick in the book bloated with corrupting power , nope intercessor.
Ranged combined arms warfare? Tau , don't be silly Marines!
Speedy transports and mobile warfare to the extreme? Dark eldar you say , Nope also marines btw the only transport to allow disembarking AFTER movement of it...
harlokin wrote: If the shootiest/sneakiest/fightiest/speediest armies in the game are marines in yellow, black, red, white armour, respectively, then they occupy too much of the rules design space.
Honestly, the new Morkai dogs are basically what a WE Berzerk should be sans the pistol and more melee... but he
The Eradicators are just plainly better then SoB meltas or firedragons...
Why field an obliterator when aggressors or the former do it better for cheaper...
Veterans of the long war, this 10000 years and some bastards with every trick in the book bloated with corrupting power , nope intercessor.
Ranged combined arms warfare? Tau , don't be silly Marines!
Speedy transports and mobile warfare to the extreme? Dark eldar you say , Nope also marines btw the only transport to allow disembarking AFTER movement of it...
Durability ? DG or Necrons? NOPE Iron hands...
Yeah, this is an associated problem in that Marines have now cannibalised so much design space from other armies - including even traits that were once the defining features of given races.
I think Catbarf talked about this in a different thread. Basically, a problem of there being no one willing to stick up for the Xeno factions and say 'hang on, this is a core part of our faction's identity - it shouldn't just be handed to Marines. Especially when they'll be able to do it even better than the Xeno faction'.
harlokin wrote: If the shootiest/sneakiest/fightiest/speediest armies in the game are marines in yellow, black, red, white armour, respectively, then they occupy too much of the rules design space.
Honestly, the new Morkai dogs are basically what a WE Berzerk should be sans the pistol and more melee... but he
The Eradicators are just plainly better then SoB meltas or firedragons...
Why field an obliterator when aggressors or the former do it better for cheaper...
Veterans of the long war, this 10000 years and some bastards with every trick in the book bloated with corrupting power , nope intercessor.
Ranged combined arms warfare? Tau , don't be silly Marines!
Speedy transports and mobile warfare to the extreme? Dark eldar you say , Nope also marines btw the only transport to allow disembarking AFTER movement of it...
Durability ? DG or Necrons? NOPE Iron hands...
Yeah, this is an associated problem in that Marines have now cannibalised so much design space from other armies - including even traits that were once the defining features of given races.
I think Catbarf talked about this in a different thread. Basically, a problem of there being no one willing to stick up for the Xeno factions and say 'hang on, this is a core part of our faction's identity - it shouldn't just be handed to Marines. Especially when they'll be able to do it even better than the Xeno faction'.
Well most of the old 40k Guard left.. what we have with it right now is Corporatisation, hence the copyrightable names, the constant testing for how much people are willing to pay...
half of 2019 and now 2020 was basically marines with some Necrons minescule necrons.. that's it. Actually no, we lost another 2 factions which are technically MORE relevant as forces then any SM supplement we had just size wise and what they represented, all we got instead is another gak ton of design space encroaching primaris.
Heck half my local marine players just stopped buying rules because it became to much.. because literally all 6 months they should shell out for ANOTHER marine book...
The story of the space marines is THE central narrative of the 40K universe, starting with the emperor, the primarchs, the Horus Heresy, all the way up to the present.
This isn't to say that the other factions don't have their own important stories too, but space marines, and by extension the imperium of man, is the lens through which the entire universe is experienced. It's always been that way. And space marines miniatures sell because they are iconic and emblematic of the entire universe. They are likely the biggest initial point of connection players new to GW have - and that drives sales.
I guess I don't have much skin in the game - as I'm playing older editions of the game, not playing in GW stores and not playing in tournaments. I have and do use cut up counters as proxies for units all of the time. I'm not caught in GW's model buying, codex chasing, rat race. If I was, I would likely be more upset about how some model lines are left in an out-of-date or impartial state.
I'm also not thrilled that over the next 2 months 3 out of 4 books coming out are for armies I have. I have considered selling, trading, or converting models to another army to avoid more books. I accept that I am part of the problem with having 7 different marine armies each having their own book...
I would like to play my Orks or Tau sometime and I will restart my Craftworld Eldar as soon as they release plastic aspect warriors. At least I have my new plastic Sisters army. Sigh, I like everything in this game.
At this point only Dark Angels represent the truest Space Marine gameplay style of combined forced assault slighly specialized in shooting based around speed and striking hard and fast in meele with surgical strikes. And they don't even have super duper crazy bonuses for doing any of that like Blood Angels have with a ton of extremely potent (at least before the new index) for meele and mobility and deepstriking.
Maybe is because of that that they have been the worst marines for all of 8th.
One of the difficult things about the reason given for starting this thread:
Marine bloat is such a huge issue that it IS relevant to almost any other thread you can think of; isolating it here isn't going to change the fact that this topic has relevance to many, many other topics, and so you aren't going to be able to stop it from appearing in other threads when it's relevant... Which is almost always.
Now if GW fixes this by say severely limiting marine releases in 2021 and maximizing Xenos releases, maybe you'll see this come up less. Until that happens, I can't see the complaints going away.
Brotherjanus wrote: I'm also not thrilled that over the next 2 months 3 out of 4 books coming out are for armies I have. I have considered selling, trading, or converting models to another army to avoid more books. I accept that I am part of the problem with having 7 different marine armies each having their own book...
I would like to play my Orks or Tau sometime and I will restart my Craftworld Eldar as soon as they release plastic aspect warriors. At least I have my new plastic Sisters army. Sigh, I like everything in this game.
see that is another part of the issue, GW frankly ignores swathes of their universe by not actually asking the question as to why a range doesn't sell.
GW needed an wakeup call from the community to bring sisters into plastic...
And you see this all the bloody time, take the rules updates for R&H in 6th-7th with IA 13 and how many renegades armies that spawned in variations because finally there was an ruleset worth a damn?
How many CSM players jumped over because they could actually start a customizable force again...
Orks have allways been riddled with lopsided rules.
Dark eldar and Eldar, either languish without support, or get rules support that is just ridicoulus but models are stoneage or half the HQ selection get's wiped...
There is NO bad concept for a (large aka complete) faction in 40k there0s just also a bunch of factions that should've never left supplementary stage ...
Mezmorki wrote: It's always been that way. And space marines miniatures sell because they are iconic and emblematic of the entire universe. They are likely the biggest initial point of connection players new to GW have - and that drives sales.
No, it hasn't always been that way. I'm old enough to remember that - also, them driving sales is a feedback loop that just will result in Astartes being a cancer on the rest of the setting.
Just in terms of core game mechanics, here's the space loyalist marines take up:
By my count, space marines have roughly 60% of the psychic powers in the game, with 78 currently, which will jump to 84 if Deathwatch get a power list (currently the only major subfaction not to have one that can take librarians.)
Compare to: Tzeentch, Chaos God of Magic, 6 powers.
Craftworld Eldar, the xenos faction with the most lore dedicated to being great psykers, 18 powers.
All of Chaos, including all daemons, 48 unless DG got some new ones in PA - didnt pay much attention to their PA release.
Marines have 6 of the 8 units that can deploy outside of their controlling player's deployment zone.
Marines have the only unit that can break deep strike army composition restrictions and the only unit that can deep strike turn 1 - which is a transport that enables a vast number of units to do that.
The idea of having religious leader units able to cast Prayers was first given to CSM with 11 options for prayers, then to Loyalist Marines with 37 optional prayers. This type of ability was not given to any other faction with religious leaders who pray for divine interventions, i.e. ministorum priests, sisters of battle, daemons of any god, DG or Tsons, Harlequins, Genestealer Cults, etc.
The idea of an army having a special rule that kicks in when they don't bring any allies was first added to Loyalist Space Marines with the 2.0 codex over a year ago. Since then, only 2 other factions have received a comparable rule, making it an advantage loyalist marines continue to enjoy over nearly everybody essentially for free. Of course, loyalist marines have the choice of 12 variations of this special rule.
Loyalist marines were the first faction granted access to customize their army-wide faction traits with the release of Marines 2.0. Multiple factions still have not been given that capability including all of the Chaos factions, and loyalist marines remain the only ones who can choose to powergame their subfaction traits and still retain all the other subfaction bonuses of any core codex subfaction they choose.
Marines were the first faction to receive the ability to permanently upgrade their generic characters via some stratagem or ability to perform as a higher tier of character. This ability has been upgraded, redesigned, and expanded 3 times, in 2.0dex, PA Faith and Fury, and 3.0dex. To my knowledge only Harlequins, Daemons, Orks and possibly now Necrons have had a similar ability added. To reiterate again because they're always just the best example: GW has had time to update and redesign and expand the ability from just captains to Chaplains, Librarians, Company Champions, Techmarines, and Apothecaries but still NO CHAOS SPACE MARINE character can be upgraded to an "exalted lord" or "arch-sorceror" or "Dark Prophet"
This is what people talk about when they talk about "taking up design space". Marines continuosly have followed this pattern throughout the time I've played: GW comes up with some new concept, like making Flyers and Anti-Air units a huge part of the game, or making "super formations" that give triple layers of bonuses, or giving bonuses based on your choice of subfaction, or whatever else, and by the time GW finishes slowly implementing them for loyalist marines and every loyalist marine offshoot, whoops, looks like it's time for another loyalist marine core codex and we have to come up with another idea for rules for loyalist marines to make people buy it!
The reality is that, as the Primaris and Manlet Marines become closer in profile, the consolidation of statlines will help streamline bloat issues. I legit don't think anyone is going to think Intercessor statlines getting access to Grav or Plasma Cannons will break anything, nor would the fact that people have been clamoring for A2 baseline with the basic Tactical Marine anyway. Simply put, the Intercessor getting access to outside weapons is a great starting point for this project.
As well, you wouldn't even need an Assault Marine entry if you go the route of allowing Assault Intercessors Jump Packs as well. Hell, we need a LOT of that consolidation. Does anyone need four separate entries for Terminators when we could just make one profile? Do the two Centurions really need different entries? They don't, none of them do.
Next part is how many Marines need a codex? Loyalist Scum from the Angels don't warrant it at all. Dark Angels losing access to Sternguard just because, even though you can equip their Vets almost the same exact way but strictly being inferior for the price because of Sternguard guns, or the fact literally nobody but Dark Angels and their successors somehow were the only ones EVER with Plasma Cannons on their Speeders? They're such artificial wargear differences that there's really no problem with generalized access to these things outside the whole "My chapter and just their Successors only had Thunderfire Cannons, sorry Blood Angels!" or "Sorry just my Dreads get Frag Cannons sorry Iron Hands!"
Consolidation of Space Wolves is a lot trickier but as the eventual consolidation happens it CAN be done with minimal effort. Originally I wanted them separate but once again there's a lot of silly differences for no reason but just because.
Now for unique units, I don't think each Chapter should have access to more than 4-5 outside Special Characters. In my mind it would be along the lines of whole different post I'll have to make.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Now for unique units, I don't think each Chapter should have access to more than 4-5 outside Special Characters. In my mind it would be along the lines of whole different post I'll have to make.
Lets look at the new super special Space Wolves unit
Time, money and effort was spent on yet another unit for an already hugely bloated sub-sub faction rather than a new unit for another faction
There is already a dedicated anti psyker army in the Imperium which is crying out for development but instead this is given to....Space Wolves
There is now eve less reason to bother creating stuff for Sisters of Silence liek a HQ or special characxter because the Wolves now "need" a character anti psyker.
Mr Morden wrote: Lets look at the new super special Space Wolves unit
Time, money and effort was spent on yet another unit for an already hugely bloated sub-sub faction rather than a new unit for another faction There is already a dedicated anti psyker army in the Imperium which is crying out for development but instead this is given to....Space Wolves
There is now eve less reason to bother creating stuff for Sisters of Silence liek a HQ or special characxter because the Wolves now "need" a character anti psyker.
sad sad days.
actually that is untrue, a investment into the SoS would've forced GW to MAKE a model, unlike with these reivers which they just needed to creat moronical rules for and sell with an upgrade sprue for more money..
it's corporatistic minimalist investment..
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The reality is that, as the Primaris and Manlet Marines become closer in profile, the consolidation of statlines will help streamline bloat issues. I legit don't think anyone is going to think Intercessor statlines getting access to Grav or Plasma Cannons will break anything, nor would the fact that people have been clamoring for A2 baseline with the basic Tactical Marine anyway. Simply put, the Intercessor getting access to outside weapons is a great starting point for this project.
As well, you wouldn't even need an Assault Marine entry if you go the route of allowing Assault Intercessors Jump Packs as well. Hell, we need a LOT of that consolidation. Does anyone need four separate entries for Terminators when we could just make one profile? Do the two Centurions really need different entries? They don't, none of them do.
Next part is how many Marines need a codex? Loyalist Scum from the Angels don't warrant it at all. Dark Angels losing access to Sternguard just because, even though you can equip their Vets almost the same exact way but strictly being inferior for the price because of Sternguard guns, or the fact literally nobody but Dark Angels and their successors somehow were the only ones EVER with Plasma Cannons on their Speeders? They're such artificial wargear differences that there's really no problem with generalized access to these things outside the whole "My chapter and just their Successors only had Thunderfire Cannons, sorry Blood Angels!" or "Sorry just my Dreads get Frag Cannons sorry Iron Hands!"
Consolidation of Space Wolves is a lot trickier but as the eventual consolidation happens it CAN be done with minimal effort. Originally I wanted them separate but once again there's a lot of silly differences for no reason but just because.
Now for unique units, I don't think each Chapter should have access to more than 4-5 outside Special Characters. In my mind it would be along the lines of whole different post I'll have to make.
In terms of legitimately unique special units that exist in plastic that you'd have to either account for, or give their options to the marine codex at large, you've got:
-Deathwatch Vets. Personally I'd be fine with incorporating their 4 unique options into a single "Marine Veterans" datasheet.
-The unique stealth bomber flyer
-Watch Master
-Fenrisian Wolves
-Wulfen
-TWC -2x SW flyers
-Black Knights
-2x Specialboy Land Speeders
-2x DA Flyers
-Deathwing Knights
-Sanguinary Guard
-Baal Pred
-Furioso Dread
Bosskelot wrote: Yeah I'm not really convinced the Hounds took all that much effort or money to create.
It's literally a Reiver box with the existing SW upgrade sprue.
it still did take up time for a much needed rule update for any of these factions:
GSC because ambushing experts not working in ambush is genius.
Tau: Riptide and Shield drones is for a mechanised army that should also have a combined arms theme going and auxilia really limiting..
Orks: 5ppm grots, for no apparent reason.
Guard: erm, conscripts? erm a whole slew of units that are just meh or bad? Doctrines and customizability also dead?
Ynnari: Still missing maskless banshees and all of the 3 HQ's that make that faction up could've deserved a look at.
FW:
R&H: in the same time someone could've propperly made the command vox and enforcer marauder interaction fixed up... Watch gw feth that up in legends aswell, mark my words! also check pts cost and profiles?
Elysians: Same as above, could've used proofreading and some look at pts cost, as above.
Corsairs: Erm could've wrote an HQ entry with some of the former dedications?
Bosskelot wrote: Yeah I'm not really convinced the Hounds took all that much effort or money to create.
It's literally a Reiver box with the existing SW upgrade sprue.
More thought was put into their datasheet than any anti-psyker unit currently existing in the game, possibly barring the culexus assassin, so there is that.
Every other anti-psyker unit: "I dunno maybe a DTW? Maybe -1 or -2 to psychic powers within x"?"
Fangs: +1 to hit, +1 to damage, ignore Look Out Sir, -1 to cast within 12", -2 to cast within 6", can't be targeted for psychic powers unless the closest, 4++ vs mortal wounds in the psychic phase.
Damn!
Good thing we didn't need any of those new anti-psyker rules for
-Sisters of Silence
-Necron Gloom Prisons
-Khorne
-The entire ordo hereticus
-Some thing the Drukhari could have that helps them hunt down and kill every psyker born in the black city
-Tyranids, the army that makes every psyker on the planet start to go crazy by showing up
Enjoy this thread and discuss the problems with marines and their players here. I wont be participating much here. But with your own space for this topic we can keep it out of literally every single other thread that mentions power armor at all.
For those that don't understand the subtext here:
"I like marines, and enjoy all the attention they get, but I dislike being reminded about how favoured and overpowered they've become. So if all of you little people could keep your complaints nicely isolated to this thread so I never have to listen to them again, that would be great. Kthxbai."
I mean my paraphrasing of it is only about 10% more patronising than the original, I'm not sure I could do a better job at passive aggressiveness. Bravo sir.
Also to people who are replying to this thread - don't bother. The person who started it has said he's ignoring it, and so the only people who post here will be people who already agree with you anyway. There's no discussion, just an echo chamber. Things wont improve with the game in any way because of this thread.
The best thing to do is spam every thread that Type40 comments on, so that no no, don't do that. Best thing for balance is to just chat to your game group and try and convince people not to take tfg lists. Game is more fun with balanced armies. As far as model releases go... don't buy any marines. The less GW sell, the more they might actually try something crazy (like plastic aspect warriors).
Mezmorki wrote: It's always been that way. And space marines miniatures sell because they are iconic and emblematic of the entire universe. They are likely the biggest initial point of connection players new to GW have - and that drives sales.
No, it hasn't always been that way. I'm old enough to remember that - also, them driving sales is a feedback loop that just will result in Astartes being a cancer on the rest of the setting.
I started playing with Rogue Trader - so I don't know at what point in the past you are thinking of where the imperium wasn't the focal point of the lore. Care to elaborate?
EDIT: For the record, I do wish more "design space" was given or prioritized to non-marine armies. I do feel like, even acknowledging the importance of SM in lore/sales/etc. that it's out of whack big time. Seems like 75% of everything is Marines, when even 50% would be a lot given there are nearly a dozen other main factions to share the other 50% of the love.
I first learned the game and read about the lore in 1991. It was clear then that Space Marines were the story focus around which everything else was centered. That is still true.
vipoid wrote: I think Catbarf talked about this in a different thread. Basically, a problem of there being no one willing to stick up for the Xeno factions and say 'hang on, this is a core part of our faction's identity - it shouldn't just be handed to Marines. Especially when they'll be able to do it even better than the Xeno faction'.
Yep. Let's consider some examples of the results.
Which faction can sneakily forward deploy, or deep strike in the midst of the enemy on the first turn, executing a sudden ambush without warning? GSC, right? Nope. Marines get to break the no-DS-turn-1 rule with Drop Pods. GSC are based on ambush and deep strike, but they have to wait until T2.
Which faction gets transports that can drop troops after moving, allowing them to cover lots of ground in one turn and shoot from close range? Probably Drukhari, famed for their lightning-assault style, right? Nope, it's Marines again with the Impulsor.
Who's got a sniper unit that can also do decent anti-heavy-infantry/anti-vehicle, making them a good source of long-ranged firepower? Hey, that sounds like the old Tau rail rifle! Nah it's Eliminators, so Marines again.
Do you want a fast lightning assault army that uses lots of bikes to get in close and press the attack? Well you could go Craftworlds, but White Scars do it better. Do you want footslogging lunatics who chop the enemy into little bits? Orks or Berserkers are fun, but Blood Angels and Space Wolves do it too, require a lot less finesse, and also have great shooting to cover. Do you want to form a gunline and out-shoot the enemy? That once was Tau's thing, but Imperial Fists and Iron Hands do it better. With the most stratagems, most psychic powers, most subfactions, best subfaction traits, and significant mono-faction bonus, there's nothing they can't do well.
Basically, rather than being jacks of all trades, they're masters of all of them too. Worse, they don't give up secondary capabilities to specialize, like how Khorne trades off shooting to be good at melee and Tau trades off melee to be good at shooting. If you're a new player and you ask the local guru 'what's the best army at [X]?', I give it 80% odds that the answer is some flavor of Marine.
And note that none of this has to do with points costs. It's not about whether Marine units are costed appropriately, it's about capability and specialization. Impulsors and Drop Pods could double in cost but they'd still represent the kind of role-defining specialties that Drukhari and GSC respectively ought to have. Making Drukhari and GSC cheaper makes them more cost-effective and more competitive, but 'I'm not the best at [thing], I just do it cheaper' isn't really characterful.
This isn't how wargames are designed; it's more like designing an RPG, where you hyper-specialize the NPCs to make interesting but counterable threats, while keeping the player characters both more flexible and able to out-specialize their enemies so they can feel powerful. Given how much the design team focuses on Marines, I don't think this is any coincidence. If you don't put boundaries on what a faction can do, or have people on the design team advocating for other factions to be the best at their respective strengths, this kind of capability creep is inevitable.
And I mean, if GW really wants to just bite the bullet and make Marines explicitly the protagonists against an array of NPC enemies, I'd be fine with that. Seriously. Just so long as the focus changes from an adversarial competition to a collaborative RPG experience, and as the GM I'm given the tools to make an appropriately challenging experience for the players. Make it overtly a game where Marines are the good guys and the best at everything and they're expected to win, level up, and go on to greater triumph, rather than this charade where all factions are equal but some are more equal than others.
I would like the other armies brought up to the same level as marines are right now. Every army should be as fun and feel as correct as the current marine rules make marines. I'd much rather see Craftworlds, Regiments, Warbands, Klans, Septs, Hive Fleets, and whatever else I may be forgetting get the treatment that the marine chapters are getting. I think that it would require simultaneous rules writing and a faster release schedule to limit how long an army languishes with bad rules.
Brotherjanus wrote: I would like the other armies brought up to the same level as marines are right now. Every army should be as fun and feel as correct as the current marine rules make marines. I'd much rather see Craftworlds, Regiments, Warbands, Klans, Septs, Hive Fleets, and whatever else I may be forgetting get the treatment that the marine chapters are getting. I think that it would require simultaneous rules writing and a faster release schedule to limit how long an army languishes with bad rules.
The problem is how do you do this?
Do you really want a unit better than the Hounds at countering psykers? I feel bad for psykers in that case. Of course you could just buff psykers to ignore half the Hounds rules, but then why waste everyone's time with them?
Do you really want an army to be faster and killier than White Scars are right now? The board has a limited size!
Do you really want an army shootier than Marines? That's a terrifying thought!
Asking everyone to be moved up because one faction is overrepresented has major negative effects on gameplay. After all, Slaanesh are faster than eldar, Eldar are faster than Marines, so I look forwards to the 24" + advance + charge moves when the Slaanesh daemons book is out... :/
Brotherjanus wrote: I would like the other armies brought up to the same level as marines are right now. Every army should be as fun and feel as correct as the current marine rules make marines. I'd much rather see Craftworlds, Regiments, Warbands, Klans, Septs, Hive Fleets, and whatever else I may be forgetting get the treatment that the marine chapters are getting. I think that it would require simultaneous rules writing and a faster release schedule to limit how long an army languishes with bad rules.
The problem is how do you do this?
Do you really want a unit better than the Hounds at countering psykers? I feel bad for psykers in that case. Of course you could just buff psykers to ignore half the Hounds rules, but then why waste everyone's time with them?:/
You mean Sisters of Silence or Culuxes - well maybe they don't make up new BS for one super favoured sub sub faction......
Brotherjanus wrote: I would like the other armies brought up to the same level as marines are right now. Every army should be as fun and feel as correct as the current marine rules make marines. I'd much rather see Craftworlds, Regiments, Warbands, Klans, Septs, Hive Fleets, and whatever else I may be forgetting get the treatment that the marine chapters are getting. I think that it would require simultaneous rules writing and a faster release schedule to limit how long an army languishes with bad rules.
The problem is how do you do this?
Do you really want a unit better than the Hounds at countering psykers? I feel bad for psykers in that case. Of course you could just buff psykers to ignore half the Hounds rules, but then why waste everyone's time with them?
Do you really want an army to be faster and killier than White Scars are right now? The board has a limited size!
Do you really want an army shootier than Marines? That's a terrifying thought!
Asking everyone to be moved up because one faction is overrepresented has major negative effects on gameplay. After all, Slaanesh are faster than eldar, Eldar are faster than Marines, so I look forwards to the 24" + advance + charge moves when the Slaanesh daemons book is out... :/
Yup. Other armies do need to be bought up. Not to where SM are now but to where SM should be. Which is knocked back down a few pegs. The geniuses at GW that are writing this new edition are out of their fething minds. The rules bloat and imbalance that is coming over the next 12 months is going to put the last 2 editions to shame.
What really irks me about Type40 is that, at least from his posts, he doesn’t have any sympathy for other factions’ players. It’s just “me me me, my stuff my stuff my stuff,” without any regard to how others feel.
I doubt that he’s like that outside the forum, or at least I hope not, and part of it is that I and others can get a bit over the top in critiques.
But still. A simple “I’m sorry that GW focuses so much on Marines, and I agree that other factions could use nice things” would go a long way.
Brotherjanus wrote: I would like the other armies brought up to the same level as marines are right now. Every army should be as fun and feel as correct as the current marine rules make marines. I'd much rather see Craftworlds, Regiments, Warbands, Klans, Septs, Hive Fleets, and whatever else I may be forgetting get the treatment that the marine chapters are getting. I think that it would require simultaneous rules writing and a faster release schedule to limit how long an army languishes with bad rules.
The problem is how do you do this?
Do you really want a unit better than the Hounds at countering psykers? I feel bad for psykers in that case. Of course you could just buff psykers to ignore half the Hounds rules, but then why waste everyone's time with them?
Do you really want an army to be faster and killier than White Scars are right now? The board has a limited size!
Do you really want an army shootier than Marines? That's a terrifying thought!
Asking everyone to be moved up because one faction is overrepresented has major negative effects on gameplay. After all, Slaanesh are faster than eldar, Eldar are faster than Marines, so I look forwards to the 24" + advance + charge moves when the Slaanesh daemons book is out... :/
The problem is that, for all intents and purposes, fast marines are already very fast, more than fast enough for current board sizes.
There are a few edge cases where Eldar and Slaanesh are faster, but in a lot of situations it's just points being spent on something that isn't necessary. For the same points, marines get fast movement AND melee ability AND shooting ability AND a T4/2W/3+ defence profile that Eldar would give their left soulstone for.
Right, Niiru, that is my point. The design space isn't infinite, so you can't continue making BIGGERER NUMBERS and BETTERER ABILITIES. There are practical limits (e.g. board size, number of dice rolled, time it takes to play a game, etc). that 40k is already dramatically closing in on (or smashed into a pulp against after impacting at escape velocity, really) that should not - indeed cannot be further expanded.
That finite universe is almost wholly consumed by Marines at the moment, which by default relegates other factions to "as good, but no better" in the one thing they specialize in, and "worse" in every other way - not to mention the loss of army identity and capability that stings fluffbunnies like me.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Right, Niiru, that is my point. The design space isn't infinite, so you can't continue making BIGGERER NUMBERS and BETTERER ABILITIES. There are practical limits (e.g. board size, number of dice rolled, time it takes to play a game, etc). that 40k is already dramatically closing in on (or smashed into a pulp against after impacting at escape velocity, really) that should not - indeed cannot be further expanded.
That finite universe is almost wholly consumed by Marines at the moment, which by default relegates other factions to "as good, but no better" in the one thing they specialize in, and "worse" in every other way - not to mention the loss of army identity and capability that stings fluffbunnies like me.
Oh I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you, so much as confirming the parts that I thought needed to be focused on.
This is certainly an issue with the limited D6 design space. Changing the dice would loosen things up a bit, but I don't think it'll ever happen.
Marines need to be nerfed, hard. But it won't happen, cos historically speaking the marine playerbase is the one that cries the loudest, and generally speaking spends the most money. So 40k has become even more pay-to-win than ever before, unfortunately.
vipoid wrote: I think Catbarf talked about this in a different thread. Basically, a problem of there being no one willing to stick up for the Xeno factions and say 'hang on, this is a core part of our faction's identity - it shouldn't just be handed to Marines. Especially when they'll be able to do it even better than the Xeno faction'.
Yep. Let's consider some examples of the results.
I've long felt that part of GW's agenda here is to have it such that for any given playstyle (other than horde/blobs), there is a marine army/chapter that delivers that style as well as a non-marine / xeno force that also delivers it.
Lance845 wrote: The geniuses at GW that are writing this new edition are out of their fething minds. The rules bloat and imbalance that is coming over the next 12 months is going to put the last 2 editions to shame.
I'm a 5th edition legacy player - but I try to keep up to speed on the newer stuff. I was skimming through the new SM codex and was just stunned by how much stuff there is. Maybe they intend to bring this much stuff to the other factions too (yeah right?), but when you look at how much rules and details are in there, the amount of sheer content to process to understand the codex and the myriad of operations is orders of magnitude more complex than 5th edition (or even 7th).
It's not just the volume of different units. It's also remembering 10 different types of bolters. And its the staggering complexity that results from the intersection of detachment abilities, chapter tactics, successor tactics, relics, warlord traits, command traits, PAGES of straegems, psyker disciplines, litanies of battles, chapter rules, global abilities. We haven't even got to the unit entries yet. There 101 unit data sheets in the list. WTF?
Now, maybe 8th edition managed to cram the core rules of the game onto 12 pages. And 9th seemed to expand that about 24 pages. Not bad. But when you such a staggering amount of bloat in the codex, what really is even the point of trying to streamline the core game when you just made a codex with 101 unit profiles ad 25 different flavors of bolt guns. Crazy. I'm glad I got off the train earlier.
Changing the dice doesn't change anything. You can arrive at almost any probability you want by adjusting the permutations the dice go through in the rules.
GW is fundamentally against the wall in design space for 40k after firing themselves against it like a bullet, and they'll still scrape and ooze along it instead of actually fixing the problem.
The basic problem isn't just that space marines get all the releases. It's that every new release gives space marines something that used to be an iconic element of another faction...and usually, better than that faction did it in the first place. Because <reasons>.
What can't space marines do now? Pick the right color and they can do virtually anything other army can do, usually better.
This didn't used to be the case. Historically space marines were strong but in a vanilla sort of way. They lacked the tricks and hard specializations of Xenos factions. This was a trade-off that made sense both in terms of gameplay and in terms of the lore.
Now, they just do everything, usually better. It's boring and terrible game design. The ONLY thing marines can't do now as well or better than any other faction is hordes.
yukishiro1 wrote: The basic problem isn't just that space marines get all the releases. It's that every new release gives space marines something that used to be an iconic element of another faction...and usually, better than that faction did it in the first place. Because <reasons>.
What can't space marines do now? Pick the right color and they can do virtually anything other army can do, usually better.
This didn't used to be the case. Historically space marines were strong but in a vanilla sort of way. They lacked the tricks and hard specializations of Xenos factions. This was a trade-off that made sense both in terms of gameplay and in terms of the lore.
Now, they just do everything, usually better. It's boring and terrible game design. The ONLY thing marines can't do now as well or better than any other faction is hordes.
actually i'd argue a IF or IH intercessor "horde" would still significantly outperform any true horde faction in , "hording"
Mezmorki wrote: I've long felt that part of GW's agenda here is to have it such that for any given playstyle (other than horde/blobs), there is a marine army/chapter that delivers that style as well as a non-marine / xeno force that also delivers it.
I think that's completely fine.
But the Marine equivalent that delivers that style through the vehicle of jack-of-all-trades Marines cannot be as good as the ultra-specialized non-Marine/xeno force. If glass cannon Eldar are going to get the biker style archetype, White Scars can't be as fast or as killy as them, otherwise combined with their durability they're just better. Tau give up almost all melee ability to lean into gunlines, so while it's okay for Fists to be gunline Marines, they still have melee ability and so shouldn't be as good at shooting. For them to have those capabilities and be better than the specialists at their specialization is just too much.
From a raw balance perspective, Marines are priced as if they were specialists despite not having the drawbacks of specialists. When they do get appropriately priced for their abilities, historically Marine players then tend to complain that they're useless. See: Aggressors.
From a theming/faction design perspective, Marines being 'everything you can do, I can do better' undermines the identities of all those other factions.
IMO while Marines should be able to lean into those disparate playstyles, they shouldn't be able to embody them as well as the factions for whom those archetypes are the core of their theme. Raven Guard should be sneaky for Marines but not as sneaky as GSC, Blood Angels should be fighty for Marines but not as fighty as Khorne Berserkers, Imperial Fists should be shooty for Marines but not as shooty as Tau, Iron Hands should be tough for Marines but not as tough as Death Guard, and so on. Let those factions have their identities and let the different flavors of Marine lean in those directions without usurping them.
Bosskelot wrote: Yeah I'm not really convinced the Hounds took all that much effort or money to create.
It's literally a Reiver box with the existing SW upgrade sprue.
More resources than the Sisters of Silence got - or anyone else. Yet again.
An d of course there will be more - waits for the anti psyker Super wolf character or group of units.
Similar low cost options for SoS would have gone MILES further. For example: We have Valerian and Aleya models and Rules. By merely allowing Aleya to be fielded solo, they would have done SO MUCH for us- that's not even inventing another data sheet!
They could also have printed a generic Knight Commander data sheet and offered a head swap. But even that low bar was too hard to get over, Funny thing: while Hounds of Morkai will be widely panned for the poor choice of recycling models, offering an alternate head with a Knight Commander data card would have been celebrated as a major breakthrough victory for SoS.
catbarf wrote: From a theming/faction design perspective, Marines being 'everything you can do, I can do better' undermines the identities of all those other factions.
Many marine players, however, would argue that 'everything you can do, I can do better' is an important part of their faction identity.
Bosskelot wrote: Yeah I'm not really convinced the Hounds took all that much effort or money to create.
It's literally a Reiver box with the existing SW upgrade sprue.
More resources than the Sisters of Silence got - or anyone else. Yet again.
An d of course there will be more - waits for the anti psyker Super wolf character or group of units.
Similar low cost options for SoS would have gone MILES further. For example: We have Valerian and Aleya models and Rules. By merely allowing Aleya to be fielded solo, they would have done SO MUCH for us- that's not even inventing another data sheet!
They could also have printed a generic Knight Commander data sheet and offered a head swap. But even that low bar was too hard to get over, Funny thing: while Hounds of Morkai will be widely panned for the poor choice of recycling models, offering an alternate head with a Knight Commander data card would have been celebrated as a major breakthrough victory for SoS.
Heck even just generic rules for Knight Commander from 30k in 40k as an HQ choice to allow them use detachments.
What really annoys me right now is the insane amount of Intercessor, Insessor agresstisessors maris this maris that... Its BLAND! Mario Carts and moveable gun platforms... I mean COMEON!!! If space marines get fluff units, like Sanguinor guards for BA, Wulfen for Space Wolves, Blightlord Terminators for DG etc, thats COOL, flavorful... Primaris spam sucks. And it gets dumber and dumber (okay i admit the bikes were cool). Next unit is gonna be Pogocessors, with jumping pogostickmaris marines with fly keyword, immune to overwatch and can triple tap.
catbarf wrote: From a theming/faction design perspective, Marines being 'everything you can do, I can do better' undermines the identities of all those other factions.
Many marine players, however, would argue that 'everything you can do, I can do better' is an important part of their faction identity.
Except its not. SM are the best humanity has to offer in numbers that can act as a small army. Custodes are better but they dont have the numbers. Being the best humanity has to offer doesnt make you the best. The whole point of the setting is that despite these super soldiers humanity is loosing. The nids far outnumber everyone. Carnifexes tear through dreads like paper bags. Genestealers slice through terminator armor as though it wasnt there.
Eldar are fast in a way humanity could never dream of and despite their civilization falling apart their tech is as good as it has ever been.
The necrons tech is so far beyond humanities understanding it is literal magic and they caged gods and use them as pokemon. A basic gauss weapon turns sm armor and the person i side into atoms.
The orks sheer ferocity is unmatched. Nobody, NOBODY fights like the orks fight. So severe is their ferocity that a jagged piece of steel is enough to turn an ork into a warrior that can win battles.
Being the best of humanity doesnt mean being the best. And players who think otherwise need to start reading about the actual setting.
They removed double shotting and advance+shoot from Aggressors, literally their two defining special habilities, leaving them as just a statline with weapons (And they are very good and offer a different enough unit like that!) so is not like GW can't take some steps back with space marines and remove many stuff that other armies should do like T1 deepstrike or disembarking from a vehicle after moving.
Sadly with the SM codex allready out we won't see that in the near to medium future.
Just today I talked in whatssap with my group about how many of the SM weapons could be merged to reduce redundancy (Like the Reivers, Incursors and the other you make from the same kit's bolters, that should all just be the same, a normal bolter or a bolter that ignores cover save bonuses) and they basically started claiming that if we are gonna do that why don't just remove all datasheets and play with 5 units for army
I'll say it again. Dark Angels is how all marines should be, changing their chapter tactic when appropriate, but making most stratagems, powers, etc... tactical options and less "lololo 3d6 charge from deepstrike and 3000 attacks in meele". But maybe is because Dark Angels (Ultramarines probably also fit the same niche) aren't really mono thematic space marines. They aren't shooty, meele, speedy, or something like that. They are a healthy mix of everything and you need to use all your tools to win, but you never feel like you are better than specialized armies (Outside the opness of 2.0 and beyond space marines pure stats+stacked general rules)
catbarf wrote: From a theming/faction design perspective, Marines being 'everything you can do, I can do better' undermines the identities of all those other factions.
Many marine players, however, would argue that 'everything you can do, I can do better' is an important part of their faction identity.
Except its not. SM are the best humanity has to offer in numbers that can act as a small army. Custodes are better but they dont have the numbers. Being the best humanity has to offer doesnt make you the best. The whole point of the setting is that despite these super soldiers humanity is loosing. The nids far outnumber everyone. Carnifexes tear through dreads like paper bags. Genestealers slice through terminator armor as though it wasnt there.
Eldar are fast in a way humanity could never dream of and despite their civilization falling apart their tech is as good as it has ever been.
The necrons tech is so far beyond humanities understanding it is literal magic and they caged gods and use them as pokemon. A basic gauss weapon turns sm armor and the person i side into atoms.
The orks sheer ferocity is unmatched. Nobody, NOBODY fights like the orks fight. So severe is their ferocity that a jagged piece of steel is enough to turn an ork into a warrior that can win battles.
Being the best of humanity doesnt mean being the best. And players who think otherwise need to start reading about the actual setting.
I agree with everything you say with two exceptions.
Eldars and technology. I have never seen eldars depicted actually as a technological race. Their technology was given for them by their creators, and they were stagnant from the beginning. Yeah, of course it IS very powerfull technology, but even their armors and "robots" (DoW3 Cinematic show this excellently with the banshee armors) are literally "grow" with magic from Bonesingers). Necrons are THE technological race. Full technology, 0 magic, where Eldar are full magic.
And orks. I mean, yeah orks are very big and brutal, and in many cases kunning, but they are the imperial guard of the xenos. They are not the best at anything and they don't need to be. Meganobz are terryfing and can cut space marines in half but in the great scheme of the galaxy theres a ton of more threatening "meele" enemies. Khorne Demons, Eldar aspect warriors both craftworld and dark like Incubi, Custodes, etc... are the true masters of meele combat. But orks also are NOT A MEELE RACE please. Stop this. This forum is literally called in honour of the shotty nature of 40k orks. Orks are a very balanced army and race both by fluff and thematically.
JNAProductions wrote: What really irks me about Type40 is that, at least from his posts, he doesn’t have any sympathy for other factions’ players. It’s just “me me me, my stuff my stuff my stuff,” without any regard to how others feel.
I doubt that he’s like that outside the forum, or at least I hope not, and part of it is that I and others can get a bit over the top in critiques.
But still. A simple “I’m sorry that GW focuses so much on Marines, and I agree that other factions could use nice things” would go a long way.
Why do you keep harassing me. I am literally not participating in this thread except for OP. You have literally not comprehended any of my posts in any thread if that is what you think. I have done nothing but try to justify why you shouldn't just squat my faction. So fine be irked. I an advocating for not removing my factions stuff AND that is all. I want you to have your stuff, I want to share the space. But removing my stuff for you to magically to get more stuff instead doesn't seem like a logical solution to me. I am not going to participate in a conversation about it here because I am tired of this conversation and I am tired of the remove them at all cost attitude people seem to have (no in-betweens all or nothing). Stop harassing me and stick to the topic on this thread. I am not the one with no sympothy here ; "hey just squat his unique rules, kits, and army because somehow that means the rest of the factions get more attention." For gorks sake, what is your problem with me.
I honestly DO agree "The Marinening" needs to end. I have repeatedly expressed to you that I don't think there has been a healthy release schedule and that other factions SHOULD be focused on... but for what ever reason you think that me telling people I don't want my SWs unique rules, models and identity to go away means I think every other faction doesn't deserve anything ... I don't want to keep arguing with people about why SWs should exist with unique rules, I don't want to keep arguing with people about how I am not advocating for less stuff for others and I don't want to keep arguing with people that the position of "less for SWs means more for me."
I want to be able to have a conversation about fluff, new releases, ranges and potential rules without a horde of people showing up to say what we already know ... "marines get too much attention" YES we know, and we all agree. But can we please just get to the next topic.
This is a thread for people to talk about the problems... so talk about them, I don't want to participate, I have talked about it enough. So please just leave me out of it and stop harassing me. I am sorry I even bothered arguing that SWs should get to be unique and exist. I am sorry I was excited for I perceived to be fluffy rules for the new unit,,, my bad for getting excited about it. Instead of getting to have fun conversations about a new unit, talks about how to potentially better format rules and talks about fluff, I was mate with more hostility then I can even imagine because I dared to speak somewhat positively about a marine unit. next time I guess I'll just keep my mouth shut.
By the way, look at my post history. My main factions are Craftworld/Harlequins and I post more about them then anything else. So how about you stop being a judgmental jerk, read my actual posts, get an understanding of who you are talking about and stop directly calling me out and harassing me in a thread I am not even participating in.
catbarf wrote: From a theming/faction design perspective, Marines being 'everything you can do, I can do better' undermines the identities of all those other factions.
Many marine players, however, would argue that 'everything you can do, I can do better' is an important part of their faction identity.
Marine identity was historically based on being jacks of all trades and individually potent, but not able to rival the dedicated specialists in their areas of expertise. They didn't move as fast as Eldar jetbikes, shoot as hard as Tau, or fight as well as Genestealers, but they were tougher than any of those three, had capabilities where those factions had weaknesses, and were individually still elites.
There is a very fine line between being able to beat any other faction's rank-and-file trooper one-on-one, versus being able to beat any other faction's specialists in their area of expertise. The former is a key part of their theme, but the latter has never been part of their background, and has only become the reality on the tabletop in the last couple of years.
They should be able to beat any rank-and-file grunt in both shooting and melee on a one-on-one basis.
They should be able to beat equal points of specialists by exploiting their weaknesses; eg punching Fire Warriors or shooting Genestealers.
That does not mean they should be able to ambush better than GSC, do mechanized assault better than Drukhari, or do gunlines better than Tau. Not having the crippling weaknesses of those factions means not being able to rival their faction strengths, either.
So, frankly, if there are players who feel that an important part of their faction identity is being better than everyone else at all the things they're supposedly good at- basically, Mary Sues- I wouldn't lose any sleep over violating their very skewed perception of the background.
catbarf wrote: So, frankly, if there are players who feel that an important part of their faction identity is being better than everyone else at all the things they're supposedly good at- basically, Mary Sues- I wouldn't lose any sleep over violating their very skewed perception of the background.
Vipoid and catbarf have already hit most of the points I wanted to make.
Marines getting nice things is all well and good, but like, there have been more primaris lieutenants released since primaris were introduced than there are phoenix lords in plastic. Like, correct me if I'm wrong, but if you'd given Asurmen, Karandras, Baharroth, Maugan Ra, and Fuegan a release instead of 5 of the lieutenants, you'd still have as many primaris lieutenants as there have ever been farseer models. And how many characters did we lose to legends because they didn't get a model?
Similarly, space marines being able to pull off a bunch of different playstyles well is cool. Back when they were "jacks of all trades, masters of none," the game's inclination to reward specialization often made them feel a bit lackluster. I don't want them to be "bad" at a bunch of jobs, but I also don't want them to be outright better than other factions at the things that faction is supposed to be good at.
* A marine gunline should be a viable army, but it shouldn't outshoot tau.
* A marine melee army should be good, but it shouldn't outmelee khorne.
* A sneaky Raven Guard army should be sneaky, but they shouldn't be better at it than GSC, and nerfing GSC's access to 1st turn ambushes just a few months (weeks?) before giving it to marines is a bad look.
Like, the new primaris landspeeder things are faster and killier than my drukhari (while being more durable to boot.) The eliminators are just straight up better than their equivalents in other armies.
And as others have pointed out, you can only escalate so far before the game starts to crack. I don't really want my drukhari vehicles to have a base speed of 20+ inches just so they can feel faster than mon-keigh's first anti grav vehicle. I don't really want fire dragons to out-damage eliminators because that's just power creep.
catbarf wrote: So, frankly, if there are players who feel that an important part of their faction identity is being better than everyone else at all the things they're supposedly good at- basically, Mary Sues- I wouldn't lose any sleep over violating their very skewed perception of the background.
JNAProductions wrote: What really irks me about Type40 is that, at least from his posts, he doesn’t have any sympathy for other factions’ players. It’s just “me me me, my stuff my stuff my stuff,” without any regard to how others feel.
I doubt that he’s like that outside the forum, or at least I hope not, and part of it is that I and others can get a bit over the top in critiques.
But still. A simple “I’m sorry that GW focuses so much on Marines, and I agree that other factions could use nice things” would go a long way.
Why do you keep harassing me. I am literally not participating in this thread except for OP. You have literally not comprehended any of my posts in any thread if that is what you think. I have done nothing but try to justify why you shouldn't just squat my faction. So fine be irked. I an advocating for not removing my factions stuff AND that is all. I want you to have your stuff, I want to share the space. But removing my stuff for you to magically to get more stuff instead doesn't seem like a logical solution to me. I am not going to participate in a conversation about it here because I am tired of this conversation and I am tired of the remove them at all cost attitude people seem to have (no in-betweens all or nothing). Stop harassing me and stick to the topic on this thread. I am not the one with no sympothy here ; "hey just squat his unique rules, kits, and army because somehow that means the rest of the factions get more attention." For gorks sake, what is your problem with me.
By the way, look at my post history. My main factions are Craftworld/Harlequins and I post more about them then anything else. So how about you stop being a judgmental jerk, read my actual posts, get an understanding of who you are talking about and stop directly calling me out and harassing me in a thread I am not even participating in.
I apologize if I came off as too snarky or aggressive.
But reading your posts, it really does seem like you don’t care about other factions. Again, I doubt that is the case outside the forum, but that’s the impression you deliver.
Regarding "the only thing they currently don't do is horde style armies": a sarcastic/pessimistic part of me expects some kind of "auxiliary serv" unit coming along. Basically aspirants that did not qualify to become "real" space marines with a statline that basically is a Scion/Skitari/Firewarrior +1 for roughly the same cost. But just... better. Just so that Marine players that want to have 100 chaff dudes don't have to go to another Codex for that.
As others said: if they can deepstrike better than the faction whose whole lore resolves around deepstriking and infiltration, I would not be surprised if someone "sees the need" to make hordy SM chapters.
On another note: should I ever hear the argument "But Marines should be that much better, just look at the lore" I might imply to bring 2000 points of IG reinforcements every round and recycle every infantry unit for free upon dying, as even the smallest IG regiment has more men than a chapter of Marines and Regiments seldom come alone.
But reading your posts, it really does seem like you don’t care about other factions. Again, I doubt that is the case outside the forum, but that’s the impression you deliver.
JNAProductions wrote: What really irks me about Type40 is that, at least from his posts, he doesn’t have any sympathy for other factions’ players. It’s just “me me me, my stuff my stuff my stuff,” without any regard to how others feel.
I doubt that he’s like that outside the forum, or at least I hope not, and part of it is that I and others can get a bit over the top in critiques.
But still. A simple “I’m sorry that GW focuses so much on Marines, and I agree that other factions could use nice things” would go a long way.
Why do you keep harassing me. I am literally not participating in this thread except for OP. You have literally not comprehended any of my posts in any thread if that is what you think. I have done nothing but try to justify why you shouldn't just squat my faction. So fine be irked. I an advocating for not removing my factions stuff AND that is all. I want you to have your stuff, I want to share the space. But removing my stuff for you to magically to get more stuff instead doesn't seem like a logical solution to me. I am not going to participate in a conversation about it here because I am tired of this conversation and I am tired of the remove them at all cost attitude people seem to have (no in-betweens all or nothing). Stop harassing me and stick to the topic on this thread. I am not the one with no sympothy here ; "hey just squat his unique rules, kits, and army because somehow that means the rest of the factions get more attention." For gorks sake, what is your problem with me.
By the way, look at my post history. My main factions are Craftworld/Harlequins and I post more about them then anything else. So how about you stop being a judgmental jerk, read my actual posts, get an understanding of who you are talking about and stop directly calling me out and harassing me in a thread I am not even participating in.
I apologize if I came off as too snarky or aggressive.
But reading your posts, it really does seem like you don’t care about other factions. Again, I doubt that is the case outside the forum, but that’s the impression you deliver.
Hey man, its fine.
But honestly, every time you posted "do you not think other factions deserve things too" and stuff like that ... I did honestrly reply by saying "No, that's not what I mean at all" and tried restate my position of not wanting to lose the unique feeling of the SWs... most people were arguing against SWs existing with unique rules at all and that was pretty frustrating.
I really did try and repeat over and over again that I wasn't advocating for SWs to take over the space. I just want them to keep being the unique sub faction I signed up for... and please to everyone here, I do not want to argue about whether or not SWs are unique... Their unique, maybe minor, difference in units and their unique models (alongside those models unique rules) and their unique aesthetic twist are why I picked them as my second army and I want them to keep their uniqueness ... this in no way means I think GW needs to put any more time or attention into "The Marinening." I just odn't think squating one of the the most diverse (in terms of alternative datasheets and model range) power armor factions is the way to magically gain more stuff for the other factions... Anyhow, I am really not here to argue any of these points. I am just upset that even in a thread i wasnt participating in i was getting called out and ganged up on for standing up for this faction... (you know I literally do not play a primaris kit because I am sick and tired of all this marine bloat and I find the vanillaness of primaris anything totally boring... but i have collected and do play EVERY FB unique SW unit,,, this is what I personally enjoy in the game)
p.s. I what I am really wanting and waiting for is a Harlie named character that doesnt work for SOB and maybe a conclusion to the Ynari stuff they started but went no where with... so when/if things start rolling away from marines at some point, thats where my excitement will be.
I'd like to add that attempting to 'concentrate the complaints' as the OP intended to do is an exercise in utter futility. This underlying massive factional imbalance problem is going to be in nearly every discussion that brushes against Marines, their rules, and their releases, for as long as Marines stay like this compared to everyone else: Overpowered, without downsides, and continuously receiving releases that they do not need.
The state of these conversations is reflective of the state of the game itself, and the game itself is not in a good place with Marines as they are.
I like my tabletop rules to feel fluffy as well XD... and "The Marinening" feels like its dulling that down in every faction... (to be honest its because the marines DO take up all the design space) that is really depressing.
Tyel wrote: I think the game's in a reasonable spot if you don't play Tau or Guard.
People just don't like 18 months of near constant Marine releases.
And leave out marines, their power level is still way and above of what anyone else can pull off at the moment barring maybe Necrons. Not because the latter are as broken good as marines overall but because it seems they have a good match up against marines.
My biggest issue with Marines specifically primaris is they keep just inventing stuff that flys in the face of lore that's been around for multiple editions and ride over it roughshot like GW DGAF about the IP of the setting and the other exsisting factions because they need some way to make yet another unit in a bloated codex.
The latest ones just a complete unholy oh look we found if we give reivers gemstones they arn't effected by psychis powers and you can just mine/pic these up from fenris but dont ask in anyway how these things apparently being scattered around enough had absolutely no impact on the TS you know the most psychic legion attacking the fang.
It's beyond dumb it's breaking the setting breaking the imerssion and frankly if they keep it up they won't evem have an IP worth reading about let alone playing a dang table top game around.
I think that at this time GW is trying to pad their final quarter sales by releasing so much SM content in the next few months. I'm perfectly fine with SM releases. What I'm not fine with is that some of these models just don't seem necessary, where as other factions are still stuck in finecast. This wave of SM releases at the start of a new edition, to me, looks like it's choking the meta. For the first time since picking up the game in 5th, I've been heavily debating stepping away from 40k or at least until more non marine armies get new books with tools to deal with them. This could've been avoided by during the flamer/melta errata to update the CSM wound profiles as well as buff weapons to xeno factions.
Ice_can wrote: My biggest issue with Marines specifically primaris is they keep just inventing stuff that flys in the face of lore that's been around for multiple editions and ride over it roughshot like GW DGAF about the IP of the setting and the other exsisting factions because they need some way to make yet another unit in a bloated codex.
The latest ones just a complete unholy oh look we found if we give reivers gemstones they arn't effected by psychis powers and you can just mine/pic these up from fenris but dont ask in anyway how these things apparently being scattered around enough had absolutely no impact on the TS you know the most psychic legion attacking the fang.
It's beyond dumb it's breaking the setting breaking the imerssion and frankly if they keep it up they won't evem have an IP worth reading about let alone playing a dang table top game around.
Frankly marines aren't even the biggest issue with the lore imo. Since returning to the hobby I found that between me stopping with following the lore 10-ish years ago and now, almost everything they added in between is absolute junk. HH novels sell like hotcakes it seems, but that era should have remained a mystery instead of being explained to death, then we get Orkz the size of skyscapers apparently and I'm just mentally trying to flush my system and pretend we never moved forward like the good old days.
Bosskelot wrote: Yeah I'm not really convinced the Hounds took all that much effort or money to create.
It's literally a Reiver box with the existing SW upgrade sprue.
More thought was put into their datasheet than any anti-psyker unit currently existing in the game, possibly barring the culexus assassin, so there is that.
Every other anti-psyker unit: "I dunno maybe a DTW? Maybe -1 or -2 to psychic powers within x"?"
Fangs: +1 to hit, +1 to damage, ignore Look Out Sir, -1 to cast within 12", -2 to cast within 6", can't be targeted for psychic powers unless the closest, 4++ vs mortal wounds in the psychic phase.
Damn!
Good thing we didn't need any of those new anti-psyker rules for
-Sisters of Silence
-Necron Gloom Prisons
-Khorne
-The entire ordo hereticus
-Some thing the Drukhari could have that helps them hunt down and kill every psyker born in the black city
-Tyranids, the army that makes every psyker on the planet start to go crazy by showing up
SOS have pretty much all those psyker rules dude. they just lack the ignore lookout sir and re-roll wound rolls instead of the +1 hit and +1 dmg, and are completely untargetable. So it's likely that GW based these rules on SOS, which, suggests to me that's going to be their anti psyker rules going forward.
CEO Kasen wrote: I'd like to add that attempting to 'concentrate the complaints' as the OP intended to do is an exercise in utter futility. This underlying massive factional imbalance problem is going to be in nearly every discussion that brushes against Marines, their rules, and their releases, for as long as Marines stay like this compared to everyone else: Overpowered, without downsides, and continuously receiving releases that they do not need.
The state of these conversations is reflective of the state of the game itself, and the game itself is not in a good place with Marines as they are.
That doesn't mean that every discussion about any subject needs to degenerate into complaining about marines. Despite what you're saying, people can exercise some self control and stick to a topic at hand without going into 'marines, blargh' mode.
CEO Kasen wrote: I'd like to add that attempting to 'concentrate the complaints' as the OP intended to do is an exercise in utter futility. This underlying massive factional imbalance problem is going to be in nearly every discussion that brushes against Marines, their rules, and their releases, for as long as Marines stay like this compared to everyone else: Overpowered, without downsides, and continuously receiving releases that they do not need.
The state of these conversations is reflective of the state of the game itself, and the game itself is not in a good place with Marines as they are.
That doesn't mean that every discussion about any subject needs to degenerate into complaining about marines. Despite what you're saying, people can exercise some self control and stick to a topic at hand without going into 'marines, blargh' mode.
If the topic at hand is 40k and marines are dominant in the lore and on the TT, why shouldn't they talk about Marines?
CEO Kasen wrote: I'd like to add that attempting to 'concentrate the complaints' as the OP intended to do is an exercise in utter futility. This underlying massive factional imbalance problem is going to be in nearly every discussion that brushes against Marines, their rules, and their releases, for as long as Marines stay like this compared to everyone else: Overpowered, without downsides, and continuously receiving releases that they do not need.
The state of these conversations is reflective of the state of the game itself, and the game itself is not in a good place with Marines as they are.
That doesn't mean that every discussion about any subject needs to degenerate into complaining about marines. Despite what you're saying, people can exercise some self control and stick to a topic at hand without going into 'marines, blargh' mode.
If the topic at hand is 40k and marines are dominant in the lore and on the TT, why shouldn't they talk about Marines?
Maybe because there's more to 40k then Marines and there's more to Marines then complaining about them?
Ice_can wrote: My biggest issue with Marines specifically primaris is they keep just inventing stuff that flys in the face of lore that's been around for multiple editions and ride over it roughshot like GW DGAF about the IP of the setting and the other exsisting factions because they need some way to make yet another unit in a bloated codex.
The latest ones just a complete unholy oh look we found if we give reivers gemstones they arn't effected by psychis powers and you can just mine/pic these up from fenris but dont ask in anyway how these things apparently being scattered around enough had absolutely no impact on the TS you know the most psychic legion attacking the fang.
It's beyond dumb it's breaking the setting breaking the imerssion and frankly if they keep it up they won't evem have an IP worth reading about let alone playing a dang table top game around.
This isn't a problem at all. Not only has 40k drastically changed the lore in the past they will change the lore again in the future.
What matters is that in terms of the game they do something that makes for a good game. We are talking about a setting that has psychic powers, demon portals the size of hundreds of solar systems, robot skeletons from billions of years ago, and so on. Some magic rocks is fine. The state of the SM army isn't.
I'm just done waiting and seeing. I got caught up in the excitement of 9th and playing over TTS, but that excitement was slowly sanded down by months under the grinding wheels of the hype train. I weathered the one-two that was Indomitus and SM 3.0, I despaired at the state of the FAQs, but the boot to the face that finally crushed hope was this - this tiny, possibly meta-insignificant Hounds of Morkai release with enough anti-psyker rules to make the Culexus Temple sue for copyright infringement. It was supposed to be done. It is not. It may never be.
Spitting out another unit after Marines have had their year and a half in the sun makes it all feel like it's just gonna be Marine releases from here on out, and they couldn't even be arsed to quickie-FAQCSM/TS/DG wounds numbers or analogous Xenos weapons while SM got massive upgrades. I know logically that it must be an exaggeration to say that GW literally doesn't care about non-Marine factions - Necrons got thrown a halfway decent bone - but how else are we supposed to view it when they couldn't lift a godsdamned finger to type out "CSM: 2W; +3 ppm," "Fusion: D6+2 in half range" or "Warpflamer: 12" range?"
I agree GW could have put of 5 less Primaris Lieutenants and instead updated 5 Phoenix Lords.
Which haven't had a new model since freaking 1994!
The Necron release was great, but for god sake GW, stop the Marine releases until the factions that have been waiting for an update for decades are sorted!
Galas wrote: As a Custodes player with 30 Sisters of Silence I feel offended by this Space Wolf unit.
As much as I do think it is fluff accurate and pretty neat to have a psyker hunting unit in SWs (not even saying they needed it or should have had time dedicated to it, just that I like fluffy things on the table) , the fact that they do what the SOS do but objectively better is definitely too much. I feel that man. Its like the fact that power weapons are the same as or better then harlequin weapons now but cost less points XD .
Type40 wrote: ... stop directly calling me out and harassing me in a thread I am not even participating in.
I mean, you've made at least as many posts on this thread as 90% of the participants.
Plus, you STARTED the thread.
So I'm not sure how you can really claim to not be participating in it...
I am not going to start arbitrary arguments with you... but how about you go back and notice how I didn't participate in the thread until after people started calling me out and talking crap about me, other then the OP ,where I said I wasn't going to participate... How about you notice people were talking crap about me an entire page and a half after the OP in-between which I literally posted nothing. Also these harassing posts were not related to the topic on this thread what so ever. or even related to a post I made on this thread (as I hadn't posted anything but the OP and topic description). How about you stop stroking your own confidence by posting some self-righteous gotcha because you can't take the time to check what happened previously in the thread... thank you. leave me alone.
Do you not understand what harassment is ? stop trying to start arbitrary confrontation with me... thank you.
Ice_can wrote: My biggest issue with Marines specifically primaris is they keep just inventing stuff that flys in the face of lore that's been around for multiple editions and ride over it roughshot like GW DGAF about the IP of the setting and the other exsisting factions because they need some way to make yet another unit in a bloated codex.
The latest ones just a complete unholy oh look we found if we give reivers gemstones they arn't effected by psychis powers and you can just mine/pic these up from fenris but dont ask in anyway how these things apparently being scattered around enough had absolutely no impact on the TS you know the most psychic legion attacking the fang.
It's beyond dumb it's breaking the setting breaking the imerssion and frankly if they keep it up they won't evem have an IP worth reading about let alone playing a dang table top game around.
The Space Wolves having talisman's that protect against psykic powers is literally something that has existed as long as the space wolves have.
This isn't necessarily a Marine issue, but with regard to faction identity, I think there are also issues with some factions basically having their identities given away for free.
For example, the ability to move at full speed and shoot without penalty has always been a Dark Eldar thing (also an Eldar thing, but usually to a lesser extent).
I get that people didn't like vehicles getting penalties to Heavy Weapons if they moved, but it seems like that could have been addressed in a different way. e.g. they could have let vehicles fire one Heavy Weapon without penalty if it moves half its speed or less. This would have at least allowed vehicles to fire their primary weapon normally, after repositioning. Eldar could have fired all heavy weapons without penalty at half-speed and 1 without penalty at full speed. Dark Eldar get to fire all their weapons even at full speed.
That's just an idea off the top of my head, but it would have helped to maintain some sort of identity for the Eldar factions (and especially for Dark Eldar, who are supposed to specialise in this sort of warfare).
But no. Instead, every faction was just given one of the longstanding benefits of Dark Eldar at no cost.
Again, this isn't specifically an issue with Space Marines, but it's just another example of other factions having their identities distributed wholesale.
Type40 wrote: ... stop directly calling me out and harassing me in a thread I am not even participating in.
I mean, you've made at least as many posts on this thread as 90% of the participants.
Plus, you STARTED the thread.
So I'm not sure how you can really claim to not be participating in it...
I am not going to start arbitrary arguments with you... but how about you go back and notice how I didn't participate in the thread until after people started calling me other then the OP where I said I wasn't going to participate... How about you notice people were talking crap about me an entire page later while not talking about the topic on this thread what so ever. How about you stop stroking your own confidence by posting some self-righteous gotcha because you can't take the time to check what happened previously in the thread... thank you. leave me alone.
1. Make thread of dubious hot button topic, and tell people you wont be participating in said thread. 2. Proceed to participate in said thread. 3. Continue to participate in said thread and make a point of telling people you will no longer participate in your thread and get prickly with people who dare reply to comments you made.
Dakka logic in 2020...
Well I'm leaving now. Please don't respond to my comment. Good bye sir!
I hope its clear this is very tounge in cheek. But seriously though, It might be a good idea to step back/take a break. We all get passionate about our plastic spacemen, I get it. But its not worth getting in a bind about and creating aggro... The best thing to do is just ignore people that annoy you, dont rise to the bait when baited, and not be condescending/ disrpesectful.
I certainly could use my own advise more often But expecting people not to give opinions on marines because you dont like most of those opinions in a public forum is not realistic sir. If you want a pro GW/Pro marines echo chamber you need to go on the GWFB groups. They actively ban anyone making comments criticising marines.
Type40 wrote: ... stop directly calling me out and harassing me in a thread I am not even participating in.
I mean, you've made at least as many posts on this thread as 90% of the participants.
Plus, you STARTED the thread.
So I'm not sure how you can really claim to not be participating in it...
I am not going to start arbitrary arguments with you... but how about you go back and notice how I didn't participate in the thread until after people started calling me other then the OP where I said I wasn't going to participate... How about you notice people were talking crap about me an entire page later while not talking about the topic on this thread what so ever. How about you stop stroking your own confidence by posting some self-righteous gotcha because you can't take the time to check what happened previously in the thread... thank you. leave me alone.
1. Make thread of dubious hot button topic, and tell people you wont be participating in said thread.
2. Proceed to participate in said thread.
3. Continue to participate in said thread and make a point of telling people you will no longer participate in your thread and get prickly with people who dare reply to comments you made.
Dakka logic in 2020...
Well I'm leaving now. Please don't respond to my comment.
Good bye sir!
P.S. I hope its clear this is very tounge in cheek.
But seriously though, It might be a good idea to step back/take a break.
We all get passionate about our plastic spacemen, I get it. But its not worth getting in a bind about and crating agro...
Are you seriously still trying to antagonize me... ? What is your problem man ,,, is this making you feel good ?
I replied to a post that talked gak about me after 1.5 pages of me not participating what so ever ? do you really not understand why I would be insulted by people going randomly off topic and talking gak about me ?
I dont give a flying feth about what you guys say about the "plastic spacemen" anymore... you guys clearly have a fething problem with bullying people in this community. what the hell is wrong with you guys. if you go back trough this thread and don't understand the problem with peoples behaviour, including your own, then maybe you need to step back and stop deliberately trying to condescend and ridicule people for what ever self-rightous kick you seem to be getting.
Are you actually incapable of staying on topic in threads, instead opting for bullying and harassments instead ?
prior to asking people to stop talking gak about me did you see me participating in this thread ?
Do you even read the posts your commenting on ? Did you even see where in this thread these were located ? and in what context ? do you have any idea of what you are talking about right now or are you just being a jerk to me because you saw my name ?
vipoid wrote: This isn't necessarily a Marine issue, but with regard to faction identity, I think there are also issues with some factions basically having their identities given away for free.
For example, the ability to move at full speed and shoot without penalty has always been a Dark Eldar thing (also an Eldar thing, but usually to a lesser extent).
I get that people didn't like vehicles getting penalties to Heavy Weapons if they moved, but it seems like that could have been addressed in a different way. e.g. they could have let vehicles fire one Heavy Weapon without penalty if it moves half its speed or less. This would have at least allowed vehicles to fire their primary weapon normally, after repositioning. Eldar could have fired all heavy weapons without penalty at half-speed and 1 without penalty at full speed. Dark Eldar get to fire all their weapons even at full speed.
That's just an idea off the top of my head, but it would have helped to maintain some sort of identity for the Eldar factions (and especially for Dark Eldar, who are supposed to specialise in this sort of warfare).
But no. Instead, every faction was just given one of the longstanding benefits of Dark Eldar at no cost.
Again, this isn't specifically an issue with Space Marines, but it's just another example of other factions having their identities distributed wholesale.
the addition of a movement speed I think, in theory should be eneugh to diffrentate eldar a bit, but the problem is M7 vs M6 isn't really doing it.
Want to have the hardest-hitting melee army in the game? Play white scars. Or maybe blood angels. Or maybe space wolves.
What to have the shootiest army in the game? Play imperial fists.
Want to have one of the most resilient armies in the game? Play...well, basically any space marines army, now that they all have the absurd chief apothecary and 1CP transhuman.
And no matter which one of those you choose, you have no major weakness either. The melee chapters still shoot well if they want to. The shooty chapters still fight well if they want to. They're all quite durable.
Want to be super mobile? White scars will do that for you too. Don't even need drop pods because your rhino can move like 30" and then the squad inside can disembark in the same turn. Silly space elves, millions of years and they still haven't even figured that trick out, except for that one harlequin troupe master who apparently doesn't want to teach anyone else to do it.
It's just really bad game design to have one faction that receives far more attention than every other AND at the same time is constantly given new tools that make it as good at just about anything as any of the other armies. The topic has been talked to death for over a year now and GW has not once - not once - actually come out and acknowledged there is a basic problem with the way the game is weighted. Instead, they've doubled down even harder, devoting even more time to the faction and even more energy to giving space marines every tool every other army has.
It's not even about space marines being overpowered. 9th edition has been pretty fluid competitively, with many other lists putting up wins. It's more about the omnipresence of marines. Even if they're only good rather than oppressive, it drains peoples' enthusiasm for the game to see resources so misallocated.
Until GW does front up and admit that people are right and lay out a plan for rebalancing the focus of the game, the frustration is going nowhere, nor should it.
Okey, you clearly misconstrued what I was saying as hostility. It wasn't. I skimmed the thread and read the OP and was responding to the last couple of posts, you made which was quite frankly ridiculous and I was making a joke about that, and pointing out just how ridiculous that soudned... hoping you can see the funny side
Argive wrote: Okey, you clearly misconstrued what I was saying as hostility. It wasn't.
I skimmed the thread and read the OP and was responding to the last couple of posts, you made which was quite frankly ridiculous and I was making a joke about that, and pointing out just how ridiculous that soudned... hoping you can see the funny side
No need to get angry sir.
You quoted a post harassing me that was also off topic and accusing me of something that was factually untrue.
You harassed me further,
what you said I was doing was inaccurate.
You are delibrately, off topic, antagonizing people by accusing them and supporting others who accused them of doing something they did not do... something easily verifiable by just looking through the posts on the thread...
This was bullying, harassment and unrelated to the thread,
HA HA good joke.
yukishiro1 wrote: It's just really bad game design to have one faction that receives far more attention than every other AND at the same time is constantly given new tools that make it as good at just about anything as any of the other armies. The topic has been talked to death for over a year now and GW has not once - not once - actually come out and acknowledged there is a basic problem with the way the game is weighted. Instead, they've doubled down even harder, devoting even more time to the faction and even more energy to giving space marines every tool every other army has.
The ironic thing is that I bet if people stopped buying Astartes their reaction would be "gak! We need to give them more releases and more powerful rules!" and not "Hey maybe we should focus on something else."
Argive wrote: Okey, you clearly misconstrued what I was saying as hostility. It wasn't.
I skimmed the thread and read the OP and was responding to the last couple of posts, you made which was quite frankly ridiculous and I was making a joke about that, and pointing out just how ridiculous that soudned... hoping you can see the funny side
No need to get angry sir.
You quoted a post harassing me that was also off topic and accusing me of something that was factually untrue.
You harassed me further,
what you said I was doing was inaccurate.
You are delibrately, off topic, antagonizing people by accusing them and supporting others who accused them of doing something they did not do... something easily verifiable by just looking through the posts on the thread...
This was bullying, harassment and unrelated to the thread,
HA HA good joke.
Im glad it made you laugh and see the funny side.
On topic however Yakushiro1 Has put it better in words than I could.
The fact you have a techmarine that can heal flat 3 and have all dreads reduce damage by one is far more resiliant than what eldar could do with wraith and Bonesingers.
I have a 2CP strat in my book that lets me heal D3 damage on wraith construct.. Marines just get a special techmarine taht can heal like flat 3 twice ? I assume thats still a thing.. Its hard to keep up with allt he possible combos.
yukishiro1 wrote: It's just really bad game design to have one faction that receives far more attention than every other AND at the same time is constantly given new tools that make it as good at just about anything as any of the other armies. The topic has been talked to death for over a year now and GW has not once - not once - actually come out and acknowledged there is a basic problem with the way the game is weighted. Instead, they've doubled down even harder, devoting even more time to the faction and even more energy to giving space marines every tool every other army has.
The ironic thing is that I bet if people stopped buying Astartes their reaction would be "gak! We need to give them more releases and more powerful rules!" and not "Hey maybe we should focus on something else."
That ol chestnut eh ?
The snake eating its tail self fulfilling prophecy.. Not sure.
I really wish I had acess to GW global slaes data. Surely there are more players playing any given 40k factions then there are specialist games players right ?
Like theres soo many blood bowl, warcry and necromunda etc. things being released that are far more nieche than say a new IG regiment sculpt... By same token those could be 40k infantry squads IMO. I just dotn get GWs priority thing. Is their foothold in the market for those small indy skirmish style things really so important its worth loosing 40k players over ? Like your average 40k player will spend a lot more on their army than some random skirmisher warband thing..
Are you actually incapable of attempting to be civil with the people around you ? I actually can not understand what your motivation is ? are you getting joy from harassing me ?
just stop please.
Being a jerk to a random person on the internet doesn't make you cool.
BrianDavion wrote: the addition of a movement speed I think, in theory should be eneugh to diffrentate eldar a bit, but the problem is M7 vs M6 isn't really doing it.
This is also very true. In fact, I think there are a few factors at work:
1) The difference in movement speed between Eldar and Marines is inconsequential compared to the difference in movement speed between infantry and jump infantry, between infantry and bikers, between infantry and vehicles etc. For example, a DE Wych might move 8" compared to a Marine's 6", but a Marine biker moves 14" and a Land Speeder moves 16", so immediately any hope of Dark Eldar being faster is completely lost. Hell, the DEHQs can't even match the SMHQs for speed, because the "fast" army has no access to bikes or jump packs, whilst the bulkier Marine army has both in spades.
2) Even if we stick purely to the infantry level, the difference in speed is negligible compared with additional movement. Let's go back to the DE Wych comparison. A Wych moves 8" compared to 6" for a Marine. In most games with movement values, running and charging (or their equivalents) are either based on multiples of a model's movement value, or else at least ensure that a model's movement is the main contributor. Not so in 40k. If a model runs, it moves M+d6. If a model charges, it moves M+2d6. Thus, a DE Wych runs 9-16" and charges 10-20", whilst a Marine runs and charges 7-14" and 8-18", respectively. There just isn't enough difference between these values for it to have a significant impact on a game. Even less so when you factor in the random values (which can easily lead to Marines running/charging further then the "fast" Eldar units anyway).
3) The differences in movement values do not adequately reflect weapon ranges. When you look at games like Warmahordes, which also tend to have just 1-2" differences in average movement between factions, you'll notice that the weapon ranges are very shot. As a rough estimate, they're around twice the M speed of units (i.e. most are around 10 or 12"). Barring extra range from spells/abilities, 14" is about the most you're likely to find. The upshot of this is that movement can keep models out of range of enemy weapons, and that extra 1-2" of movement for faster models can be key in either staying out of range or getting into range.
However, in 40k you have weapons that shoot from one corner of the board to the other. And even most basic weapons have a range of 24" (which is four times the average movement speed of infantry). And many other common weapons have a range of 36" or even 48" (three times the speed of a Venom). This means that the 1-2" of movement that Eldar infantry get over non-Eldar will rarely ever make a difference because it's so negligible relative to the range of the weapons involved. And this on boards that have just shrunk considerably.
Mezmorki wrote: I've long felt that part of GW's agenda here is to have it such that for any given playstyle (other than horde/blobs), there is a marine army/chapter that delivers that style as well as a non-marine / xeno force that also delivers it.
I think that's completely fine.
But the Marine equivalent that delivers that style through the vehicle of jack-of-all-trades Marines cannot be as good as the ultra-specialized non-Marine/xeno force. If glass cannon Eldar are going to get the biker style archetype, White Scars can't be as fast or as killy as them, otherwise combined with their durability they're just better. Tau give up almost all melee ability to lean into gunlines, so while it's okay for Fists to be gunline Marines, they still have melee ability and so shouldn't be as good at shooting. For them to have those capabilities and be better than the specialists at their specialization is just too much.
From a raw balance perspective, Marines are priced as if they were specialists despite not having the drawbacks of specialists. When they do get appropriately priced for their abilities, historically Marine players then tend to complain that they're useless. See: Aggressors.
From a theming/faction design perspective, Marines being 'everything you can do, I can do better' undermines the identities of all those other factions.
IMO while Marines should be able to lean into those disparate playstyles, they shouldn't be able to embody them as well as the factions for whom those archetypes are the core of their theme. Raven Guard should be sneaky for Marines but not as sneaky as GSC, Blood Angels should be fighty for Marines but not as fighty as Khorne Berserkers, Imperial Fists should be shooty for Marines but not as shooty as Tau, Iron Hands should be tough for Marines but not as tough as Death Guard, and so on. Let those factions have their identities and let the different flavors of Marine lean in those directions without usurping them.
The issue then is that Marines are strictly worse than optimized versions of those factions. If, for example, you're a fast shooty unit that relies on a +4 jink save, and a weapon good against a specific threat you don't want to be paying for good melee stats, 3+ armor, and seventeen different weapons options. Marines have always had to pay for those extra stats and have spent decades off of top tables because of this terrible design.
The idea that you 'fight what you can't outshoot, and shoot what you can't outfight' has never worked well on the tabletop outside of casual play.
The idea behind this thread wasn't a bad one, but it appears to have been somewhat derailed from the start by the confrontational tone of the OP.
If anyone's interested in continuing the discussion of Marines and the design resources that they may or may not steal from other factions, feel free to start a new thread with a more focused opening post.
