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 Type40 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
... stop directly calling me out and harassing me in a thread I am not even participating in.

I mean, you've made at least as many posts on this thread as 90% of the participants.

Plus, you STARTED the thread.

So I'm not sure how you can really claim to not be participating in it...

I am not going to start arbitrary arguments with you... but how about you go back and notice how I didn't participate in the thread until after people started calling me other then the OP where I said I wasn't going to participate... How about you notice people were talking crap about me an entire page later while not talking about the topic on this thread what so ever. How about you stop stroking your own confidence by posting some self-righteous gotcha because you can't take the time to check what happened previously in the thread... thank you. leave me alone.

1. Make thread of dubious hot button topic, and tell people you wont be participating in said thread.
2. Proceed to participate in said thread.
3. Continue to participate in said thread and make a point of telling people you will no longer participate in your thread and get prickly with people who dare reply to comments you made.

Dakka logic in 2020...

Well I'm leaving now. Please don't respond to my comment.
Good bye sir!

I hope its clear this is very tounge in cheek.
But seriously though, It might be a good idea to step back/take a break.
We all get passionate about our plastic spacemen, I get it. But its not worth getting in a bind about and creating aggro... The best thing to do is just ignore people that annoy you, dont rise to the bait when baited, and not be condescending/ disrpesectful.

I certainly could use my own advise more often
But expecting people not to give opinions on marines because you dont like most of those opinions in a public forum is not realistic sir.
If you want a pro GW/Pro marines echo chamber you need to go on the GW FB groups. They actively ban anyone making comments criticising marines.

 Argive wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
... stop directly calling me out and harassing me in a thread I am not even participating in.

I mean, you've made at least as many posts on this thread as 90% of the participants.

Plus, you STARTED the thread.

So I'm not sure how you can really claim to not be participating in it...

I am not going to start arbitrary arguments with you... but how about you go back and notice how I didn't participate in the thread until after people started calling me other then the OP where I said I wasn't going to participate... How about you notice people were talking crap about me an entire page later while not talking about the topic on this thread what so ever. How about you stop stroking your own confidence by posting some self-righteous gotcha because you can't take the time to check what happened previously in the thread... thank you. leave me alone.

1. Make thread of dubious hot button topic, and tell people you wont be participating in said thread.
2. Proceed to participate in said thread.
3. Continue to participate in said thread and make a point of telling people you will no longer participate in your thread and get prickly with people who dare reply to comments you made.

Dakka logic in 2020...

Well I'm leaving now. Please don't respond to my comment.
Good bye sir!

P.S. I hope its clear this is very tounge in cheek.
But seriously though, It might be a good idea to step back/take a break.
We all get passionate about our plastic spacemen, I get it. But its not worth getting in a bind about and crating agro...

Are you seriously still trying to antagonize me... ? What is your problem man ,,, is this making you feel good ?

I replied to a post that talked gak about me after 1.5 pages of me not participating what so ever ? do you really not understand why I would be insulted by people going randomly off topic and talking gak about me ?

I dont give a flying feth about what you guys say about the "plastic spacemen" anymore... you guys clearly have a fething problem with bullying people in this community. what the hell is wrong with you guys. if you go back trough this thread and don't understand the problem with peoples behaviour, including your own, then maybe you need to step back and stop deliberately trying to condescend and ridicule people for what ever self-rightous kick you seem to be getting.

Are you actually incapable of staying on topic in threads, instead opting for bullying and harassments instead ?
prior to asking people to stop talking gak about me did you see me participating in this thread ?
Do you even read the posts your commenting on ? Did you even see where in this thread these were located ? and in what context ? do you have any idea of what you are talking about right now or are you just being a jerk to me because you saw my name ?

honestly, what is your problem ?

 vipoid wrote:
This isn't necessarily a Marine issue, but with regard to faction identity, I think there are also issues with some factions basically having their identities given away for free.

For example, the ability to move at full speed and shoot without penalty has always been a Dark Eldar thing (also an Eldar thing, but usually to a lesser extent).

I get that people didn't like vehicles getting penalties to Heavy Weapons if they moved, but it seems like that could have been addressed in a different way. e.g. they could have let vehicles fire one Heavy Weapon without penalty if it moves half its speed or less. This would have at least allowed vehicles to fire their primary weapon normally, after repositioning. Eldar could have fired all heavy weapons without penalty at half-speed and 1 without penalty at full speed. Dark Eldar get to fire all their weapons even at full speed.

That's just an idea off the top of my head, but it would have helped to maintain some sort of identity for the Eldar factions (and especially for Dark Eldar, who are supposed to specialise in this sort of warfare).

But no. Instead, every faction was just given one of the longstanding benefits of Dark Eldar at no cost.


Again, this isn't specifically an issue with Space Marines, but it's just another example of other factions having their identities distributed wholesale.

the addition of a movement speed I think, in theory should be eneugh to diffrentate eldar a bit, but the problem is M7 vs M6 isn't really doing it.

Want to have the hardest-hitting melee army in the game? Play white scars. Or maybe blood angels. Or maybe space wolves.

What to have the shootiest army in the game? Play imperial fists.

Want to have one of the most resilient armies in the game? Play...well, basically any space marines army, now that they all have the absurd chief apothecary and 1CP transhuman.

And no matter which one of those you choose, you have no major weakness either. The melee chapters still shoot well if they want to. The shooty chapters still fight well if they want to. They're all quite durable.

Want to be super mobile? White scars will do that for you too. Don't even need drop pods because your rhino can move like 30" and then the squad inside can disembark in the same turn. Silly space elves, millions of years and they still haven't even figured that trick out, except for that one harlequin troupe master who apparently doesn't want to teach anyone else to do it.

It's just really bad game design to have one faction that receives far more attention than every other AND at the same time is constantly given new tools that make it as good at just about anything as any of the other armies. The topic has been talked to death for over a year now and GW has not once - not once - actually come out and acknowledged there is a basic problem with the way the game is weighted. Instead, they've doubled down even harder, devoting even more time to the faction and even more energy to giving space marines every tool every other army has.

It's not even about space marines being overpowered. 9th edition has been pretty fluid competitively, with many other lists putting up wins. It's more about the omnipresence of marines. Even if they're only good rather than oppressive, it drains peoples' enthusiasm for the game to see resources so misallocated.

Until GW does front up and admit that people are right and lay out a plan for rebalancing the focus of the game, the frustration is going nowhere, nor should it.

Okey, you clearly misconstrued what I was saying as hostility. It wasn't.
I skimmed the thread and read the OP and was responding to the last couple of posts, you made which was quite frankly ridiculous and I was making a joke about that, and pointing out just how ridiculous that soudned... hoping you can see the funny side

No need to get angry sir.

 Argive wrote:
Okey, you clearly misconstrued what I was saying as hostility. It wasn't.
I skimmed the thread and read the OP and was responding to the last couple of posts, you made which was quite frankly ridiculous and I was making a joke about that, and pointing out just how ridiculous that soudned... hoping you can see the funny side

No need to get angry sir.

You quoted a post harassing me that was also off topic and accusing me of something that was factually untrue.
You harassed me further,
what you said I was doing was inaccurate.
You are delibrately, off topic, antagonizing people by accusing them and supporting others who accused them of doing something they did not do... something easily verifiable by just looking through the posts on the thread...
This was bullying, harassment and unrelated to the thread,
HA HA good joke.

yukishiro1 wrote:
It's just really bad game design to have one faction that receives far more attention than every other AND at the same time is constantly given new tools that make it as good at just about anything as any of the other armies. The topic has been talked to death for over a year now and GW has not once - not once - actually come out and acknowledged there is a basic problem with the way the game is weighted. Instead, they've doubled down even harder, devoting even more time to the faction and even more energy to giving space marines every tool every other army has.

The ironic thing is that I bet if people stopped buying Astartes their reaction would be "gak! We need to give them more releases and more powerful rules!" and not "Hey maybe we should focus on something else."

 Type40 wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Okey, you clearly misconstrued what I was saying as hostility. It wasn't.
I skimmed the thread and read the OP and was responding to the last couple of posts, you made which was quite frankly ridiculous and I was making a joke about that, and pointing out just how ridiculous that soudned... hoping you can see the funny side

No need to get angry sir.

You quoted a post harassing me that was also off topic and accusing me of something that was factually untrue.
You harassed me further,
what you said I was doing was inaccurate.
You are delibrately, off topic, antagonizing people by accusing them and supporting others who accused them of doing something they did not do... something easily verifiable by just looking through the posts on the thread...
This was bullying, harassment and unrelated to the thread,
HA HA good joke.

Im glad it made you laugh and see the funny side.

On topic however Yakushiro1 Has put it better in words than I could.
The fact you have a techmarine that can heal flat 3 and have all dreads reduce damage by one is far more resiliant than what eldar could do with wraith and Bonesingers.

I have a 2CP strat in my book that lets me heal D3 damage on wraith construct.. Marines just get a special techmarine taht can heal like flat 3 twice ? I assume thats still a thing.. Its hard to keep up with allt he possible combos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
It's just really bad game design to have one faction that receives far more attention than every other AND at the same time is constantly given new tools that make it as good at just about anything as any of the other armies. The topic has been talked to death for over a year now and GW has not once - not once - actually come out and acknowledged there is a basic problem with the way the game is weighted. Instead, they've doubled down even harder, devoting even more time to the faction and even more energy to giving space marines every tool every other army has.

The ironic thing is that I bet if people stopped buying Astartes their reaction would be "gak! We need to give them more releases and more powerful rules!" and not "Hey maybe we should focus on something else."

That ol chestnut eh ?
The snake eating its tail self fulfilling prophecy.. Not sure.

I really wish I had acess to GW global slaes data. Surely there are more players playing any given 40k factions then there are specialist games players right ?

Like theres soo many blood bowl, warcry and necromunda etc. things being released that are far more nieche than say a new IG regiment sculpt... By same token those could be 40k infantry squads IMO. I just dotn get GWs priority thing. Is their foothold in the market for those small indy skirmish style things really so important its worth loosing 40k players over ? Like your average 40k player will spend a lot more on their army than some random skirmisher warband thing..

 Argive wrote:

Im glad it made you laugh and see the funny side.

Are you actually incapable of attempting to be civil with the people around you ? I actually can not understand what your motivation is ? are you getting joy from harassing me ?
just stop please.
Being a jerk to a random person on the internet doesn't make you cool.

BrianDavion wrote:
the addition of a movement speed I think, in theory should be eneugh to diffrentate eldar a bit, but the problem is M7 vs M6 isn't really doing it.

This is also very true. In fact, I think there are a few factors at work:

1) The difference in movement speed between Eldar and Marines is inconsequential compared to the difference in movement speed between infantry and jump infantry, between infantry and bikers, between infantry and vehicles etc. For example, a DE Wych might move 8" compared to a Marine's 6", but a Marine biker moves 14" and a Land Speeder moves 16", so immediately any hope of Dark Eldar being faster is completely lost. Hell, the DE HQs can't even match the SM HQs for speed, because the "fast" army has no access to bikes or jump packs, whilst the bulkier Marine army has both in spades.

2) Even if we stick purely to the infantry level, the difference in speed is negligible compared with additional movement. Let's go back to the DE Wych comparison. A Wych moves 8" compared to 6" for a Marine. In most games with movement values, running and charging (or their equivalents) are either based on multiples of a model's movement value, or else at least ensure that a model's movement is the main contributor. Not so in 40k. If a model runs, it moves M+d6. If a model charges, it moves M+2d6. Thus, a DE Wych runs 9-16" and charges 10-20", whilst a Marine runs and charges 7-14" and 8-18", respectively. There just isn't enough difference between these values for it to have a significant impact on a game. Even less so when you factor in the random values (which can easily lead to Marines running/charging further then the "fast" Eldar units anyway).

3) The differences in movement values do not adequately reflect weapon ranges. When you look at games like Warmahordes, which also tend to have just 1-2" differences in average movement between factions, you'll notice that the weapon ranges are very shot. As a rough estimate, they're around twice the M speed of units (i.e. most are around 10 or 12"). Barring extra range from spells/abilities, 14" is about the most you're likely to find. The upshot of this is that movement can keep models out of range of enemy weapons, and that extra 1-2" of movement for faster models can be key in either staying out of range or getting into range.

However, in 40k you have weapons that shoot from one corner of the board to the other. And even most basic weapons have a range of 24" (which is four times the average movement speed of infantry). And many other common weapons have a range of 36" or even 48" (three times the speed of a Venom). This means that the 1-2" of movement that Eldar infantry get over non-Eldar will rarely ever make a difference because it's so negligible relative to the range of the weapons involved. And this on boards that have just shrunk considerably.

 catbarf wrote:

 Mezmorki wrote:
I've long felt that part of GW's agenda here is to have it such that for any given playstyle (other than horde/blobs), there is a marine army/chapter that delivers that style as well as a non-marine / xeno force that also delivers it.

I think that's completely fine.

But the Marine equivalent that delivers that style through the vehicle of jack-of-all-trades Marines cannot be as good as the ultra-specialized non-Marine/xeno force. If glass cannon Eldar are going to get the biker style archetype, White Scars can't be as fast or as killy as them, otherwise combined with their durability they're just better. Tau give up almost all melee ability to lean into gunlines, so while it's okay for Fists to be gunline Marines, they still have melee ability and so shouldn't be as good at shooting. For them to have those capabilities and be better than the specialists at their specialization is just too much.

From a raw balance perspective, Marines are priced as if they were specialists despite not having the drawbacks of specialists. When they do get appropriately priced for their abilities, historically Marine players then tend to complain that they're useless. See: Aggressors.

From a theming/faction design perspective, Marines being 'everything you can do, I can do better' undermines the identities of all those other factions.

IMO while Marines should be able to lean into those disparate playstyles, they shouldn't be able to embody them as well as the factions for whom those archetypes are the core of their theme. Raven Guard should be sneaky for Marines but not as sneaky as GSC, Blood Angels should be fighty for Marines but not as fighty as Khorne Berserkers, Imperial Fists should be shooty for Marines but not as shooty as Tau, Iron Hands should be tough for Marines but not as tough as Death Guard, and so on. Let those factions have their identities and let the different flavors of Marine lean in those directions without usurping them.

The issue then is that Marines are strictly worse than optimized versions of those factions. If, for example, you're a fast shooty unit that relies on a +4 jink save, and a weapon good against a specific threat you don't want to be paying for good melee stats, 3+ armor, and seventeen different weapons options. Marines have always had to pay for those extra stats and have spent decades off of top tables because of this terrible design.

The idea that you 'fight what you can't outshoot, and shoot what you can't outfight' has never worked well on the tabletop outside of casual play.

Remember rule #1, folks.

The idea behind this thread wasn't a bad one, but it appears to have been somewhat derailed from the start by the confrontational tone of the OP.

If anyone's interested in continuing the discussion of Marines and the design resources that they may or may not steal from other factions, feel free to start a new thread with a more focused opening post.