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 catbarf wrote:
So, frankly, if there are players who feel that an important part of their faction identity is being better than everyone else at all the things they're supposedly good at- basically, Mary Sues- I wouldn't lose any sleep over violating their very skewed perception of the background.

GW would, though. Gotta make them ducats.

Vipoid and catbarf have already hit most of the points I wanted to make.

Marines getting nice things is all well and good, but like, there have been more primaris lieutenants released since primaris were introduced than there are phoenix lords in plastic. Like, correct me if I'm wrong, but if you'd given Asurmen, Karandras, Baharroth, Maugan Ra, and Fuegan a release instead of 5 of the lieutenants, you'd still have as many primaris lieutenants as there have ever been farseer models. And how many characters did we lose to legends because they didn't get a model?

Similarly, space marines being able to pull off a bunch of different playstyles well is cool. Back when they were "jacks of all trades, masters of none," the game's inclination to reward specialization often made them feel a bit lackluster. I don't want them to be "bad" at a bunch of jobs, but I also don't want them to be outright better than other factions at the things that faction is supposed to be good at.

* A marine gunline should be a viable army, but it shouldn't outshoot tau.
* A marine melee army should be good, but it shouldn't outmelee khorne.
* A sneaky Raven Guard army should be sneaky, but they shouldn't be better at it than GSC, and nerfing GSC's access to 1st turn ambushes just a few months (weeks?) before giving it to marines is a bad look.

Like, the new primaris landspeeder things are faster and killier than my drukhari (while being more durable to boot.) The eliminators are just straight up better than their equivalents in other armies.

And as others have pointed out, you can only escalate so far before the game starts to crack. I don't really want my drukhari vehicles to have a base speed of 20+ inches just so they can feel faster than mon-keigh's first anti grav vehicle. I don't really want fire dragons to out-damage eliminators because that's just power creep.

Hecaton wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
So, frankly, if there are players who feel that an important part of their faction identity is being better than everyone else at all the things they're supposedly good at- basically, Mary Sues- I wouldn't lose any sleep over violating their very skewed perception of the background.

GW would, though. Gotta make them ducats.

Thusly, complaining

 Type40 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
What really irks me about Type40 is that, at least from his posts, he doesn’t have any sympathy for other factions’ players. It’s just “me me me, my stuff my stuff my stuff,” without any regard to how others feel.

I doubt that he’s like that outside the forum, or at least I hope not, and part of it is that I and others can get a bit over the top in critiques.

But still. A simple “I’m sorry that GW focuses so much on Marines, and I agree that other factions could use nice things” would go a long way.

Why do you keep harassing me. I am literally not participating in this thread except for OP. You have literally not comprehended any of my posts in any thread if that is what you think. I have done nothing but try to justify why you shouldn't just squat my faction. So fine be irked. I an advocating for not removing my factions stuff AND that is all. I want you to have your stuff, I want to share the space. But removing my stuff for you to magically to get more stuff instead doesn't seem like a logical solution to me. I am not going to participate in a conversation about it here because I am tired of this conversation and I am tired of the remove them at all cost attitude people seem to have (no in-betweens all or nothing). Stop harassing me and stick to the topic on this thread. I am not the one with no sympothy here ; "hey just squat his unique rules, kits, and army because somehow that means the rest of the factions get more attention." For gorks sake, what is your problem with me.

By the way, look at my post history. My main factions are Craftworld/Harlequins and I post more about them then anything else. So how about you stop being a judgmental jerk, read my actual posts, get an understanding of who you are talking about and stop directly calling me out and harassing me in a thread I am not even participating in.

I apologize if I came off as too snarky or aggressive.

But reading your posts, it really does seem like you don’t care about other factions. Again, I doubt that is the case outside the forum, but that’s the impression you deliver.

Regarding "the only thing they currently don't do is horde style armies": a sarcastic/pessimistic part of me expects some kind of "auxiliary serv" unit coming along. Basically aspirants that did not qualify to become "real" space marines with a statline that basically is a Scion/Skitari/Firewarrior +1 for roughly the same cost. But just... better. Just so that Marine players that want to have 100 chaff dudes don't have to go to another Codex for that.
As others said: if they can deepstrike better than the faction whose whole lore resolves around deepstriking and infiltration, I would not be surprised if someone "sees the need" to make hordy SM chapters.

On another note: should I ever hear the argument "But Marines should be that much better, just look at the lore" I might imply to bring 2000 points of IG reinforcements every round and recycle every infantry unit for free upon dying, as even the smallest IG regiment has more men than a chapter of Marines and Regiments seldom come alone.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I apologize if I came off as too snarky or aggressive.

But reading your posts, it really does seem like you don’t care about other factions. Again, I doubt that is the case outside the forum, but that’s the impression you deliver.

You're not alone, I get that impression too.

Me too.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
What really irks me about Type40 is that, at least from his posts, he doesn’t have any sympathy for other factions’ players. It’s just “me me me, my stuff my stuff my stuff,” without any regard to how others feel.

I doubt that he’s like that outside the forum, or at least I hope not, and part of it is that I and others can get a bit over the top in critiques.

But still. A simple “I’m sorry that GW focuses so much on Marines, and I agree that other factions could use nice things” would go a long way.

Why do you keep harassing me. I am literally not participating in this thread except for OP. You have literally not comprehended any of my posts in any thread if that is what you think. I have done nothing but try to justify why you shouldn't just squat my faction. So fine be irked. I an advocating for not removing my factions stuff AND that is all. I want you to have your stuff, I want to share the space. But removing my stuff for you to magically to get more stuff instead doesn't seem like a logical solution to me. I am not going to participate in a conversation about it here because I am tired of this conversation and I am tired of the remove them at all cost attitude people seem to have (no in-betweens all or nothing). Stop harassing me and stick to the topic on this thread. I am not the one with no sympothy here ; "hey just squat his unique rules, kits, and army because somehow that means the rest of the factions get more attention." For gorks sake, what is your problem with me.

By the way, look at my post history. My main factions are Craftworld/Harlequins and I post more about them then anything else. So how about you stop being a judgmental jerk, read my actual posts, get an understanding of who you are talking about and stop directly calling me out and harassing me in a thread I am not even participating in.

I apologize if I came off as too snarky or aggressive.

But reading your posts, it really does seem like you don’t care about other factions. Again, I doubt that is the case outside the forum, but that’s the impression you deliver.

Hey man, its fine.

But honestly, every time you posted "do you not think other factions deserve things too" and stuff like that ... I did honestrly reply by saying "No, that's not what I mean at all" and tried restate my position of not wanting to lose the unique feeling of the SWs... most people were arguing against SWs existing with unique rules at all and that was pretty frustrating.

I really did try and repeat over and over again that I wasn't advocating for SWs to take over the space. I just want them to keep being the unique sub faction I signed up for... and please to everyone here, I do not want to argue about whether or not SWs are unique... Their unique, maybe minor, difference in units and their unique models (alongside those models unique rules) and their unique aesthetic twist are why I picked them as my second army and I want them to keep their uniqueness ... this in no way means I think GW needs to put any more time or attention into "The Marinening." I just odn't think squating one of the the most diverse (in terms of alternative datasheets and model range) power armor factions is the way to magically gain more stuff for the other factions... Anyhow, I am really not here to argue any of these points. I am just upset that even in a thread i wasnt participating in i was getting called out and ganged up on for standing up for this faction... (you know I literally do not play a primaris kit because I am sick and tired of all this marine bloat and I find the vanillaness of primaris anything totally boring... but i have collected and do play EVERY FB unique SW unit,,, this is what I personally enjoy in the game)

p.s. I what I am really wanting and waiting for is a Harlie named character that doesnt work for SOB and maybe a conclusion to the Ynari stuff they started but went no where with... so when/if things start rolling away from marines at some point, thats where my excitement will be.

I'd like to add that attempting to 'concentrate the complaints' as the OP intended to do is an exercise in utter futility. This underlying massive factional imbalance problem is going to be in nearly every discussion that brushes against Marines, their rules, and their releases, for as long as Marines stay like this compared to everyone else: Overpowered, without downsides, and continuously receiving releases that they do not need.

The state of these conversations is reflective of the state of the game itself, and the game itself is not in a good place with Marines as they are.

I like my tabletop rules to feel fluffy as well XD... and "The Marinening" feels like its dulling that down in every faction... (to be honest its because the marines DO take up all the design space) that is really depressing.

I think the game's in a reasonable spot if you don't play Tau or Guard.

People just don't like 18 months of near constant Marine releases.

Tyel wrote:
I think the game's in a reasonable spot if you don't play Tau or Guard.

People just don't like 18 months of near constant Marine releases.

And leave out marines, their power level is still way and above of what anyone else can pull off at the moment barring maybe Necrons. Not because the latter are as broken good as marines overall but because it seems they have a good match up against marines.

My biggest issue with Marines specifically primaris is they keep just inventing stuff that flys in the face of lore that's been around for multiple editions and ride over it roughshot like GW DGAF about the IP of the setting and the other exsisting factions because they need some way to make yet another unit in a bloated codex.
The latest ones just a complete unholy oh look we found if we give reivers gemstones they arn't effected by psychis powers and you can just mine/pic these up from fenris but dont ask in anyway how these things apparently being scattered around enough had absolutely no impact on the TS you know the most psychic legion attacking the fang.

It's beyond dumb it's breaking the setting breaking the imerssion and frankly if they keep it up they won't evem have an IP worth reading about let alone playing a dang table top game around.

I think that at this time GW is trying to pad their final quarter sales by releasing so much SM content in the next few months. I'm perfectly fine with SM releases. What I'm not fine with is that some of these models just don't seem necessary, where as other factions are still stuck in finecast. This wave of SM releases at the start of a new edition, to me, looks like it's choking the meta. For the first time since picking up the game in 5th, I've been heavily debating stepping away from 40k or at least until more non marine armies get new books with tools to deal with them. This could've been avoided by during the flamer/melta errata to update the CSM wound profiles as well as buff weapons to xeno factions.

Ice_can wrote:
My biggest issue with Marines specifically primaris is they keep just inventing stuff that flys in the face of lore that's been around for multiple editions and ride over it roughshot like GW DGAF about the IP of the setting and the other exsisting factions because they need some way to make yet another unit in a bloated codex.
The latest ones just a complete unholy oh look we found if we give reivers gemstones they arn't effected by psychis powers and you can just mine/pic these up from fenris but dont ask in anyway how these things apparently being scattered around enough had absolutely no impact on the TS you know the most psychic legion attacking the fang.

It's beyond dumb it's breaking the setting breaking the imerssion and frankly if they keep it up they won't evem have an IP worth reading about let alone playing a dang table top game around.

Frankly marines aren't even the biggest issue with the lore imo. Since returning to the hobby I found that between me stopping with following the lore 10-ish years ago and now, almost everything they added in between is absolute junk. HH novels sell like hotcakes it seems, but that era should have remained a mystery instead of being explained to death, then we get Orkz the size of skyscapers apparently and I'm just mentally trying to flush my system and pretend we never moved forward like the good old days.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:
Yeah I'm not really convinced the Hounds took all that much effort or money to create.

It's literally a Reiver box with the existing SW upgrade sprue.

More thought was put into their datasheet than any anti-psyker unit currently existing in the game, possibly barring the culexus assassin, so there is that.

Every other anti-psyker unit: "I dunno maybe a DTW? Maybe -1 or -2 to psychic powers within x"?"

Fangs: +1 to hit, +1 to damage, ignore Look Out Sir, -1 to cast within 12", -2 to cast within 6", can't be targeted for psychic powers unless the closest, 4++ vs mortal wounds in the psychic phase.

Damn!

Good thing we didn't need any of those new anti-psyker rules for

-Sisters of Silence
-Necron Gloom Prisons
-Khorne
-The entire ordo hereticus
-Some thing the Drukhari could have that helps them hunt down and kill every psyker born in the black city
-Tyranids, the army that makes every psyker on the planet start to go crazy by showing up

SOS have pretty much all those psyker rules dude. they just lack the ignore lookout sir and re-roll wound rolls instead of the +1 hit and +1 dmg, and are completely untargetable. So it's likely that GW based these rules on SOS, which, suggests to me that's going to be their anti psyker rules going forward.

 CEO Kasen wrote:
I'd like to add that attempting to 'concentrate the complaints' as the OP intended to do is an exercise in utter futility. This underlying massive factional imbalance problem is going to be in nearly every discussion that brushes against Marines, their rules, and their releases, for as long as Marines stay like this compared to everyone else: Overpowered, without downsides, and continuously receiving releases that they do not need.

The state of these conversations is reflective of the state of the game itself, and the game itself is not in a good place with Marines as they are.

That doesn't mean that every discussion about any subject needs to degenerate into complaining about marines. Despite what you're saying, people can exercise some self control and stick to a topic at hand without going into 'marines, blargh' mode.

"sos have all those rules except the ones they don't have"

Nice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

 CEO Kasen wrote:
I'd like to add that attempting to 'concentrate the complaints' as the OP intended to do is an exercise in utter futility. This underlying massive factional imbalance problem is going to be in nearly every discussion that brushes against Marines, their rules, and their releases, for as long as Marines stay like this compared to everyone else: Overpowered, without downsides, and continuously receiving releases that they do not need.

The state of these conversations is reflective of the state of the game itself, and the game itself is not in a good place with Marines as they are.

That doesn't mean that every discussion about any subject needs to degenerate into complaining about marines. Despite what you're saying, people can exercise some self control and stick to a topic at hand without going into 'marines, blargh' mode.

If the topic at hand is 40k and marines are dominant in the lore and on the TT, why shouldn't they talk about Marines?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"sos have all those rules except the ones they don't have"

Nice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

 CEO Kasen wrote:
I'd like to add that attempting to 'concentrate the complaints' as the OP intended to do is an exercise in utter futility. This underlying massive factional imbalance problem is going to be in nearly every discussion that brushes against Marines, their rules, and their releases, for as long as Marines stay like this compared to everyone else: Overpowered, without downsides, and continuously receiving releases that they do not need.

The state of these conversations is reflective of the state of the game itself, and the game itself is not in a good place with Marines as they are.

That doesn't mean that every discussion about any subject needs to degenerate into complaining about marines. Despite what you're saying, people can exercise some self control and stick to a topic at hand without going into 'marines, blargh' mode.

If the topic at hand is 40k and marines are dominant in the lore and on the TT, why shouldn't they talk about Marines?

Maybe because there's more to 40k then Marines and there's more to Marines then complaining about them?

SOS do have a unit that ignores look out sir.

Ice_can wrote:
My biggest issue with Marines specifically primaris is they keep just inventing stuff that flys in the face of lore that's been around for multiple editions and ride over it roughshot like GW DGAF about the IP of the setting and the other exsisting factions because they need some way to make yet another unit in a bloated codex.
The latest ones just a complete unholy oh look we found if we give reivers gemstones they arn't effected by psychis powers and you can just mine/pic these up from fenris but dont ask in anyway how these things apparently being scattered around enough had absolutely no impact on the TS you know the most psychic legion attacking the fang.

It's beyond dumb it's breaking the setting breaking the imerssion and frankly if they keep it up they won't evem have an IP worth reading about let alone playing a dang table top game around.

This isn't a problem at all. Not only has 40k drastically changed the lore in the past they will change the lore again in the future.

What matters is that in terms of the game they do something that makes for a good game. We are talking about a setting that has psychic powers, demon portals the size of hundreds of solar systems, robot skeletons from billions of years ago, and so on. Some magic rocks is fine. The state of the SM army isn't.

As a Custodes player with 30 Sisters of Silence I feel offended by this Space Wolf unit.

Tyel wrote:People just don't like 18 months of near constant Marine releases.

This is the worst part, as they slowly sprawl over everyone else's space to be the best assault, shooting, countercharge, infiltration, anti-vehicle, anti-badger and soufflé-making army in the game. They're on top and they keep getting stuff they don't need. Even if they weren't stupidly efficient I'd be getting sick of it, but the double bill is just too much to take. I find I'm reacting to Marine news with an - albeit somewhat muted - form of the unproductively obsessive disgust that I used feel viewing political and world news, and I don't want to feel like that about a hobby.

I'm just done waiting and seeing. I got caught up in the excitement of 9th and playing over TTS, but that excitement was slowly sanded down by months under the grinding wheels of the hype train. I weathered the one-two that was Indomitus and SM 3.0, I despaired at the state of the FAQs, but the boot to the face that finally crushed hope was this - this tiny, possibly meta-insignificant Hounds of Morkai release with enough anti-psyker rules to make the Culexus Temple sue for copyright infringement. It was supposed to be done. It is not. It may never be.

Spitting out another unit after Marines have had their year and a half in the sun makes it all feel like it's just gonna be Marine releases from here on out, and they couldn't even be arsed to quickie-FAQ CSM/TS/DG wounds numbers or analogous Xenos weapons while SM got massive upgrades. I know logically that it must be an exaggeration to say that GW literally doesn't care about non-Marine factions - Necrons got thrown a halfway decent bone - but how else are we supposed to view it when they couldn't lift a godsdamned finger to type out "CSM: 2W; +3 ppm," "Fusion: D6+2 in half range" or "Warpflamer: 12" range?"

I agree GW could have put of 5 less Primaris Lieutenants and instead updated 5 Phoenix Lords.
Which haven't had a new model since freaking 1994!

The Necron release was great, but for god sake GW, stop the Marine releases until the factions that have been waiting for an update for decades are sorted!

 Galas wrote:
As a Custodes player with 30 Sisters of Silence I feel offended by this Space Wolf unit.

As much as I do think it is fluff accurate and pretty neat to have a psyker hunting unit in SWs (not even saying they needed it or should have had time dedicated to it, just that I like fluffy things on the table) , the fact that they do what the SOS do but objectively better is definitely too much. I feel that man. Its like the fact that power weapons are the same as or better then harlequin weapons now but cost less points XD .

 Type40 wrote:
... stop directly calling me out and harassing me in a thread I am not even participating in.

I mean, you've made at least as many posts on this thread as 90% of the participants.

Plus, you STARTED the thread.

So I'm not sure how you can really claim to not be participating in it...

I wonder if this thread has worked as intended..

Niiru wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
... stop directly calling me out and harassing me in a thread I am not even participating in.

I mean, you've made at least as many posts on this thread as 90% of the participants.

Plus, you STARTED the thread.

So I'm not sure how you can really claim to not be participating in it...

I am not going to start arbitrary arguments with you... but how about you go back and notice how I didn't participate in the thread until after people started calling me out and talking crap about me, other then the OP ,where I said I wasn't going to participate... How about you notice people were talking crap about me an entire page and a half after the OP in-between which I literally posted nothing. Also these harassing posts were not related to the topic on this thread what so ever. or even related to a post I made on this thread (as I hadn't posted anything but the OP and topic description). How about you stop stroking your own confidence by posting some self-righteous gotcha because you can't take the time to check what happened previously in the thread... thank you. leave me alone.

Do you not understand what harassment is ? stop trying to start arbitrary confrontation with me... thank you.

Ice_can wrote:
My biggest issue with Marines specifically primaris is they keep just inventing stuff that flys in the face of lore that's been around for multiple editions and ride over it roughshot like GW DGAF about the IP of the setting and the other exsisting factions because they need some way to make yet another unit in a bloated codex.
The latest ones just a complete unholy oh look we found if we give reivers gemstones they arn't effected by psychis powers and you can just mine/pic these up from fenris but dont ask in anyway how these things apparently being scattered around enough had absolutely no impact on the TS you know the most psychic legion attacking the fang.

It's beyond dumb it's breaking the setting breaking the imerssion and frankly if they keep it up they won't evem have an IP worth reading about let alone playing a dang table top game around.

The Space Wolves having talisman's that protect against psykic powers is literally something that has existed as long as the space wolves have.

This isn't necessarily a Marine issue, but with regard to faction identity, I think there are also issues with some factions basically having their identities given away for free.

For example, the ability to move at full speed and shoot without penalty has always been a Dark Eldar thing (also an Eldar thing, but usually to a lesser extent).

I get that people didn't like vehicles getting penalties to Heavy Weapons if they moved, but it seems like that could have been addressed in a different way. e.g. they could have let vehicles fire one Heavy Weapon without penalty if it moves half its speed or less. This would have at least allowed vehicles to fire their primary weapon normally, after repositioning. Eldar could have fired all heavy weapons without penalty at half-speed and 1 without penalty at full speed. Dark Eldar get to fire all their weapons even at full speed.

That's just an idea off the top of my head, but it would have helped to maintain some sort of identity for the Eldar factions (and especially for Dark Eldar, who are supposed to specialise in this sort of warfare).

But no. Instead, every faction was just given one of the longstanding benefits of Dark Eldar at no cost.


Again, this isn't specifically an issue with Space Marines, but it's just another example of other factions having their identities distributed wholesale.