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As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 19:33:12


Post by: -Guardsman-


This has likely been said before, but...

Despite being frequently touted in the fluff as the main threat (or at least the most immediate threat) facing the Imperium, you so rarely see Chaos on the tabletop, at least in my neck of the woods. I think the main problem is that right now, they're little more than edgy Marines that don't get half the GW support of their loyalist counterparts. Fluff-wise, I think another problem is that they seemingly don't have much in the way of interesting motivations.

If GW wants to see Chaos used more often as a faction, I think they need to put some focus on Chaos cults and make them a force to be reckoned with, not just CSM's cannon-fodder. In many ways, the Genestealer Cults are what Chaos cults should have been: a dark mirror of the Imperial Guard, rising up against the Imperium under the patronage of sinister forces. On the fluff side, they would at least have some amount of free will and the possibility for advancement, whereas GSC are just those poor suckers who are doomed to lose even when they "win" (in fact, especially when they "win"). They could be led by charismatic revolutionaries who genuinely believe that the Imperium, as an institution, is holding back humankind.

I see a lot of possibilities for Chaos special characters who are not CSM or daemons. E.g.: a rogue psyker who thinks humankind's psychic potential is being stymied by the Ecclesiarchy's superstition and persecution, and wants the help of the Chaos gods to nudge the human race towards the next step of its evolution.

.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 19:35:03


Post by: VladimirHerzog


-Guardsman- wrote:
This has likely been said before, but...

Despite being frequently touted in the fluff as the main threat (or at least the most immediate threat) facing the Imperium, you so rarely see Chaos on the tabletop, at least in my neck of the woods. I think the main problem is that right now, they're little more than edgy Marines that don't get half the GW support of their loyalist counterparts. Fluff-wise, I think another problem is that they seemingly don't have much in the way of interesting motivations.

If GW wants to see Chaos used more often as a faction, I think they need to put some focus on Chaos cults and make them a force to be reckoned with, not just CSM's cannon-fodder. In many ways, the Genestealer Cults are what Chaos cults should have been: a dark mirror of the Imperial Guard, rising up against the Imperium under the patronage of sinister forces. On the fluff side, they would at least have the advantage of having some amount of free will and the possibility for advancement, whereas GSC are just suckers who are doomed to lose even when they "win" (in fact, especially when they "win"). They could be led by charismatic revolutionaries who genuinely believe that the Imperium, as an institution, is holding back humankind. I see a lot of potential for Chaos special characters who are not CSM or daemons.

.


you mean like an army with renegades and heretics?


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 19:45:50


Post by: -Guardsman-


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
you mean like an army with renegades and heretics?

Pretty much, yes. Something viable on its own, without the need for CSM. On the tabletop, I imagine a Chaos cult would play a bit like the Imperial Guard: shooty horde with vehicle support. Less disciplined, but with better psychic abilities and maybe a bit more of a melee focus.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 19:47:41


Post by: harlokin


Totally disagree, for me, the only cool marines are CSM


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 19:58:09


Post by: Karol


Yeah, I get a GK codex shouldn't be about GK, but about inquisition vibe. I don't think that people that like to play csm are going to agree with such an proposition.



As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 20:02:52


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Karol wrote:
Yeah, I get a GK codex shouldn't be about GK, but about inquisition vibe. I don't think that people that like to play csm are going to agree with such an proposition.



i'm pretty sure he's not asking for CSM to go away, just for regular mortals to be playable as renegades and heretics.
Csm are like 1% of chaos's force, theyre the "elite" chaos forces.
most of Chaos fights with R&H and demons.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 20:11:21


Post by: harlokin


Cultists are right there in the CSM codex. What the factions mostly consist of in the fluff isn't necessarily what people want to play.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 20:27:55


Post by: JNAProductions


 harlokin wrote:
Cultists are right there in the CSM codex. What the factions mostly consist of in the fluff isn't necessarily what people want to play.
Cultists are not an army.

Just looking at GW's site, Imperium has...

Sisters
Custodes
Ad Mech
Guard
Knights
Marines

Not gonna count Sisters of Silence, Inquisition or Assassins, as they're lacking in a Dex. Arguably I could include Inquisition, but I won't.

Chaos has...

Daemons
Knights
Marines

They could and probably should have a Guard and Ad Mech equivalent. Renegades and Heretics, and Dark Mech.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 20:29:23


Post by: Kanluwen


Arguably, Dark Mechanicus falls under R&H more than they do their own bit.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 20:31:12


Post by: morganfreeman


I disagree with regards to the current CSM codex. It being marine-centric is fine, and I support it staying that way.

That said, we should 110% get traitor guard / renegades and heretics as their own army... And not the abandon-ware forgeworld bs.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 20:31:32


Post by: JNAProductions


 Kanluwen wrote:
Arguably, Dark Mechanicus falls under R&H more than they do their own bit.
I'd rather they be separate, but reasonable arguments can be made that they should be together.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 morganfreeman wrote:
I disagree with regards to the current CSM codex. It being marine-centric is fine, and I support it staying that way.

That said, we should 110% get traitor guard / renegades and heretics as their own army... And not the abandon-ware forgeworld bs.
I don't think the OP wants more non-Marines in the CSM Dex, they want more Chaos Codecs.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 20:32:22


Post by: harlokin


That seems to be an argument for symmetry for the sake of symmetry, rather than any genuine desire by any fether to play the 'factions'.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 20:33:54


Post by: -Guardsman-


 JNAProductions wrote:
They could and probably should have a Guard and Ad Mech equivalent. Renegades and Heretics, and Dark Mech.

I think Dark Mech should remain more of an auxiliary addition to both R&H and traitor marines.

And you could add fallen Sisters of Battle to R&H.


 harlokin wrote:
That seems to be an argument for symmetry for the sake of symmetry, rather than any genuine desire for any fether to play the 'factions'.

I wouldn't make R&H symmetrical with IG. I think they should be less of an organized fighting force and more of a ragtag gang of revolutionaries including civilian cultists, rogue IG and PDF, and some Dark Mech and CSM auxiliaries.

.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 20:36:14


Post by: JNAProductions


 harlokin wrote:
That seems to be an argument for symmetry for the sake of symmetry, rather than any genuine desire for any fether to play the 'factions'.
If other factions get more support, people will play them more.

And what's wrong with Chaos getting more toys? They certainly need it more than Loyalists do. (One could argue that the various Xenos need it the most, though.)

As for R&H, I'd think it should include everything from hordes of slavering fanatics to well-trained Chaos militia.
Options.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 20:43:52


Post by: Thadin


Even in the BL books I've read, when the Imperium is battling chaos, it is most often that they're fighting against Cultists, Chaos Militia, or traitor guardsmen, rather than fighting CSM. It's rare to even see them, and they're typically set up as being a handful of CSM as the big bads leading the Chaos Mortals.

Hell, if GW dropped Blood Pact soldiers as models tomorrow, I'd buy in to that so damn fast.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 20:53:37


Post by: Lord Damocles


A lot of Chaos marine units could be combined, which would free up more space for more non-Marines.

There is a relatively limited amount of design space for slightly different spikey humans though, which is a problem Cultists and Tzaangors already suffer from.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 20:54:13


Post by: JNAProductions


 Lord Damocles wrote:
A lot of Chaos marine units could be combined, which would free up more space for more non-Marines.

There is a relatively limited amount of design space for slightly different spikey humans though, which is a problem Cultists and Tzaangors already suffer from.
Take inspiration from GSC. They've got a lot of distinct units.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 20:56:23


Post by: Lord Damocles


 JNAProductions wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
A lot of Chaos marine units could be combined, which would free up more space for more non-Marines.

There is a relatively limited amount of design space for slightly different spikey humans though, which is a problem Cultists and Tzaangors already suffer from.

Take inspiration from GSC. They've got a lot of distinct units.

Eh. Neophtes and Brood Brothers have significant overlap, as do Acolytes and Matamorphs.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 21:04:18


Post by: Unit1126PLL


I generally agree. Chaos should be ecclectic, wild, and diverse. Not just regular SM but with 1 unit of mortals and a few badly-ported-over Daemons.

Oh, and legs instead of hoverpads on the ridiculous vehicles.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 21:10:44


Post by: Thadin


Wish granted. Invader ATVs, but with legs instead. Call them Lesser Defilers.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 21:11:29


Post by: Roknar


The amount of heresy in this thread...
CSM are in a better position to be spiky marines than ever.

GW can do their restartes thing with loyalists, and give us the long overdue heresy era tech/OG style.
They don't look anything alike anymore. Put Primaris vehicles next to more or less chaosified heresy vehicles you wouldn't even assume they are both marine gear.
And it would be closer to the lore, doubly so now that imperial armour has basically gone the way of the dodo.

R&H should be a totally separate faction like IG and there is at least a chance to see them again what with the existing renegade kits from black fortress, however small it may be.
Then again, being damn near squatted does not promise good things.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 21:18:22


Post by: greatbigtree


I mean, add some spikes and chains to any human-ish dude with a gun, call them Cant-achans and rock the Guard rules with cool models. There's your renegades and heretics.

The systems are there... you just need to use them.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 21:21:57


Post by: Not Online!!!


 harlokin wrote:
That seems to be an argument for symmetry for the sake of symmetry, rather than any genuine desire by any fether to play the 'factions'.

it would be if it hadn't allready existed, was vastly different and actually interesting.


ergo, go read IA13.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 greatbigtree wrote:
I mean, add some spikes and chains to any human-ish dude with a gun, call them Cant-achans and rock the Guard rules with cool models. There's your renegades and heretics.

The systems are there... you just need to use them.


bold words for someone within dread sock range, how about we curb Dark eldar instead and eldar and combine it into ynnari, since it's both the "same"


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 21:31:10


Post by: Stormonu


 JNAProductions wrote:

Cultists are not an army.



Perhaps they should be.

I'm not too familiar with the chaos books, but I think you could have a design space for three, maybe four chaos armies - CSM as elite warriors who have embraced the dark passions and cruelty of mankind, Renegades as the soldiering army that rejects the fodder view of its troops and embraces self-serving appeasement and corruption, the Dark Mechanicum whom imbue daemonic power into their machines and research forbidden technology, and Cultists - those religious fanatics who have rejected the callous Imperium to worship and serve power-granting daemons.

CSM - corrupted versions of space marines
Renegades - corrupted versions of imperial guard
Dark Mechanicum - corrupted versions of Admech
Cultists - chaos version of Genestealer Cults, focusing on the cult aspect. Basic units would be rabble with shoddy armor and weapons, but a faith system that could bolster aspects (bonus to hit, wound, invulnerable saves - the like). Their units could summon or temporarily transform into daemons (or assume daemonic aspects), their elite units would benefit from chaos marks and mutations. They could have bestial transports and mutated beasts and/or vehicles. They could have psychic powers or abilities that mutate themselves or the enemy, and possibly even convert or corrupt enemy units.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 21:32:39


Post by: Marshal Loss


There is definitely a lot of potential to expand the many flavours of Chaos, but I am very happy with Chaos being CSM-centric. Maybe after we've got our Cult Legions etc


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 21:33:39


Post by: Kanluwen


For every time people say "go read IA13", I can't help but wonder if they actually read the Vraks, Lost and the Damned, and Tyrant's Legion lists.

They're extremely different concepts built around the same thing. It all varies wildly thanks to the design ethos of the times though.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 21:50:36


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 greatbigtree wrote:
I mean, add some spikes and chains to any human-ish dude with a gun, call them Cant-achans and rock the Guard rules with cool models. There's your renegades and heretics.

The systems are there... you just need to use them.


except i can't play them in the same list as CSM/Demons/Knights because they wouldnt share a keyword. Yes i can ask my opponent if they'll let me but by default, the answer is no. So why exactly would i take the time to conver hordes of guardsmen if im not 100% i'll be allowed to play them.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 21:51:00


Post by: greatbigtree


Not Online!!! wrote:

bold words for someone within dread sock range, how about we curb Dark eldar instead and eldar and combine it into ynnari, since it's both the "same"


I'll have you know I *could* arm myself with 3 Dreadsocks. Not exactly sure how I'd wield them at the same time... maybe make a flail out of them?

Also, I have no vested interest in Dark Eldar since 4th edition. Eldar... never. So... I mean... ok?


I don't find them to be the same. But honestly, I didn't feel like Mechanicus needed it's own branch. Adding a couple of Characters to the Guard codex, a new infantry sprue, and a couple of new vehicles and !BAM! you can represent the Mechanicus with the Guard Codex. And if there wasn't a Chaos Marine dex, it would be simple to choose an Imperial Chapter and run them as "Counts as" whatever.

If I recall, someone took the Spacewolf Codex and Khornate models and built a CC-oriented list that outperformed a Chaos Khorne list. (Zerkers on Juggers for Wolf riders, for example. Possessed as Wolfen? There were some pretty easy counts-as. Dreads with Invulns to actually make it to CC.).

I've never understood someone feeling "neglected" in the rules department when you can so easily counts-as something, and rock your awesome models.


@Vladmir - You can ally them with Loyalist Marines... with spikes. And you can ally them with Loyalist Knights... with spikes. Daemons might be a bit of a stretch. Not sure how to handle that off-the-cuff.

If you just want to use the Daemon models, the lesser ones could probably be counts-as something Imperial. Crusader models for Blood Letters. Ogryns for medium Daemons. Sanctioned Psykers for the Tzeentch daemons. Rough Riders for Daemonettes on Steeds?


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 21:54:47


Post by: Sherrypie


 Thadin wrote:
Even in the BL books I've read, when the Imperium is battling chaos, it is most often that they're fighting against Cultists, Chaos Militia, or traitor guardsmen, rather than fighting CSM. It's rare to even see them, and they're typically set up as being a handful of CSM as the big bads leading the Chaos Mortals.

Hell, if GW dropped Blood Pact soldiers as models tomorrow, I'd buy in to that so damn fast.


Damn right. Chaos ought to be shown in all of humanity's varied forms just like the Imperium, mirroring each other with a twist. Somebody has to stand up for the little guy


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/19 22:49:15


Post by: Charistoph


On one hand, I could see the appeal of a L&D or R&H codex, but on the other hand I would rather see Chaos diversified in the way they have been going, basically by their patron.

Unfortunately, that only works for four of them. For the rest there are two different groups those that are left: those who use Chaos and those who just hate the Imperium. These would actually be generally Chaos vs Renegades. Examples of the former would be Black Legion and Word Bearers, and the latter would be Night Lords.

The more general Chaos should be able to access Chaos Daemons book or have access to lesser-aligned Daemons. The lack of Daemon discussion is something I find rather amazing for a Chaos thread, actually.

The Renegades would be something akin to IG with GSC type equipment and be able to work with Night Lords and MAYBE Alpha Legion.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 00:06:05


Post by: warmaster21


-Guardsman- wrote:


And you could add fallen Sisters of Battle to R&H.
.


there is only 1 fallen sister of battle, NO


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 00:22:32


Post by: JNAProductions


 Stormonu wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:

Cultists are not an army.



Perhaps they should be.

I'm not too familiar with the chaos books, but I think you could have a design space for three, maybe four chaos armies - CSM as elite warriors who have embraced the dark passions and cruelty of mankind, Renegades as the soldiering army that rejects the fodder view of its troops and embraces self-serving appeasement and corruption, the Dark Mechanicum whom imbue daemonic power into their machines and research forbidden technology, and Cultists - those religious fanatics who have rejected the callous Imperium to worship and serve power-granting daemons.

CSM - corrupted versions of space marines
Renegades - corrupted versions of imperial guard
Dark Mechanicum - corrupted versions of Admech
Cultists - chaos version of Genestealer Cults, focusing on the cult aspect. Basic units would be rabble with shoddy armor and weapons, but a faith system that could bolster aspects (bonus to hit, wound, invulnerable saves - the like). Their units could summon or temporarily transform into daemons (or assume daemonic aspects), their elite units would benefit from chaos marks and mutations. They could have bestial transports and mutated beasts and/or vehicles. They could have psychic powers or abilities that mutate themselves or the enemy, and possibly even convert or corrupt enemy units.
Yes-I agree.

The point I was making is not that there SHOULDN’T be a Cults of Chaos army, it’s that there’s not right now.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 00:46:07


Post by: A.T.


 JNAProductions wrote:
They could and probably should have a Guard and Ad Mech equivalent. Renegades and Heretics, and Dark Mech.
And also a genestealer cult guard equivalent, gue'vesa codex, regiment supplements, armies for all the chaos gods, squats, a khornes stormboyz codex, the unforgiven, an arbites codex, a traitor arbites codex, primaris chaos marines, traitor grey knights, traitor sisters, angry marines, eldar corsairs, eldar crone worlds, chaos squats?, the demiurge, codex kroot, charnel necrons, tagmata mechanicus, chaos tagmata mechanicus, imperial tyranids, grot tanks, siege assault vanguards, the emperors greenist, rogue traders, tyrants legion... and perhaps some single units spun off into their own codex like sternguard were to deathwatch. Codex Marbo anyone?

40k is just too bloated to start mirroring out factions into full books and lines without adding more years onto the release cycle of GWs lower priority factions. Marines and chaos marines probably make up half the range already.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 00:53:36


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I wouldn't say no to Lost & The Damned making a return.

But I also want more CSMs. I want proper Emperor's Children and World Eater books before we get a new CSM book.



As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 01:31:23


Post by: Ancestral Hamster


 warmaster21 wrote:
-Guardsman- wrote:

And you could add fallen Sisters of Battle to R&H.
.

there is only 1 fallen sister of battle, NO

Incorrect. Miriael Sabathiel “is the only sister of battle acknowledged to have willingly fallen to Chaos.” The operative word is “acknowledged”. Others may have fallen, willing or not, and the authorities and their former sisters hush it up. an example of this occurs in the short story Heart and Soul.
Spoiler:
Oleande Though Miriya was able to kill the Heretics, the Iconoclast had wounded Oleande and had her pinned down. Rather than kill Oleande, the armored Iconolcast took off her helmet and a shocked Miriya's realized that both Oleande and the Iconoclast had the same face. The warlord then explained that the Oleande pinned to the ground, was a Sister the Valorours Heart had ordered to take her face and identity. In doing so, the Iconoclast explained, the Order had hoped to hide the fact that she had fallen to Heresy. Miriya did not believe this, as she had fought beside Oleande in the Icarus Front and knew the Valorous Heart Celestian would never embrace Khorne. It was true, though, and the false Oleande had been ordered to kill the warlord, in order to erase the heretical stain from the Order's record. <snip>

Though Oleande's mission was done, Miriya and Verity had seen the Iconoclast's face and knew the truth. With her orders clear about leaving no witnesses, Oleande prepared to activate her Krack Grenades in order to bring the chapel down on their heads. Miriya talked Oleande out of doing it, though, by explaining that they had all sacrificed much of themselves to see the Iconoclast dead. If Oleande activated the grenades, then their duty to the Imperium would end, while its enemies still lived. Miriya also explained that with the warlord dead, Oleande was truly the only one with her identity and this prevented the forces of Chaos from claiming it. Miriya and Verity then both vowed to never reveal the truth of what had occurred within the chapel and Oleande accepted their vows. The surviving Sisters then made their way out of the chapel and Oleande was left wondering what she would tell her superiors. The Celestian had never been expected to survive her mission, but Miriya told her that only the Emperor could decide when their duty ends.

A similar event occurs in the novel Cain's Last Stand. [Spoiler Warning]

Also, the Anchorite variant of the Penitent Engine exists for “those Repentia who not only fled, but betrayed their Sisters”. While the majority are probably ordinary traitors, over 10,000 years it is likely that some fell to Chaos. Again, the powers-that-be and the convent such a sister came from would want to bury the facts.

So there is canonical evidence for more than one fallen sister, so someone could field them in a R&H Chaos army, if such a beast existed either offcially or as "counts-as".*

I'd like to see Chaos expanded to encompass more than just traitor marines. However, I am only playing Kill Team now, not 40K, and so it is much easier to do at KT scale than launch a new product line of fallen sisters, traitor guard, and Hereteks for 40K.

Edit 1: Servants of the Abyss (the models that came in Blackstone Fortress and its expansions) do have Kill Team rules, found in Kill Team Annual 2019. I'd forgotten about them.

*On that note, I sort of want to build a Dark Angel I Legion kill team which would be counts-as Black Legion. And yes, I'd get the Fallen set and a box of Mark IV armor for the base.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 02:01:33


Post by: Mr Raptor


The last thing I want for the game is the multiplication of factions.

Would you really like to separate chaos into:
- Chaos undivided
- Thousand sons
- Death guard
- World Eaters
- Emperor's children
- Chaos Cult
- Chaos Knights
- Dark Mechanicus
- Undivided Daemons
- Slaneesh daemons
- Khorne Daemons
- Tzeentch Daemon
- Nurgle Daemons
...

All with their own 50$ codex just for a few units ?

The game and the playerbase would be much better if GW stopped multiplying unnecessary factions differentiation just to sell their overpriced books.

What is next ? a codex for each tyranid Hive fleet ? Kroots codex ? A Primaris-only codex ? Bjorn's codex with only Bjorn ?

Sorry to be so negative, but i'd much rather GW never do a "Cultist" faction. I'm all for giving more options to CSM by giving them some flavorful additions that are not marines, but not a new chaos codex. Especially if it is just "spiky IG".


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 02:11:31


Post by: Charistoph


 Mr Raptor wrote:
The last thing I want for the game is the multiplication of factions.

Would you really like to separate chaos into:
- Chaos undivided
- Thousand sons
- Death guard
- World Eaters
- Emperor's children
- Chaos Cult
- Chaos Knights
- Dark Mechanicus
- Undivided Daemons
- Slaneesh daemons
- Khorne Daemons
- Tzeentch Daemon
- Nurgle Daemons
...

All with their own 50$ codex just for a few units ?

The game and the playerbase would be much better if GW stopped multiplying unnecessary factions differentiation just to sell their overpriced books.

What is next ? a codex for each tyranid Hive fleet ? Kroots codex ? A Primaris-only codex ? Bjorn's codex with only Bjorn ?

Sorry to be so negative, but i'd much rather GW never do a "Cultist" faction. I'm all for giving more options to CSM by giving them some flavorful additions that are not marines, but not a new chaos codex. Especially if it is just "spiky IG".

For Kill Team? It would make sense. You're barely using more than a squad or two anyways.

For the full 40K game, though, I'd keep them to probably 6 at most myself at most.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 02:24:09


Post by: ArcaneHorror


The concept of large numbers of Chaos-worshipping normal human is, in some way more dangerous to the existence of the Imperium than CSM and daemons. No matter how fearsome they are, those two factions cannot truly undermine the legitimacy of the Imperium as they are forces outside of humanity, and above and beyond normal humans in all ways. But humans who worship Chaos and who are able to set up their own separate, functioning states like the Blood Pact did completely undermine the Imperium's claims to full domination of humans and the claims of the Emperor being the 'Master of Mankind.'

In terms of the game, I think we definitely need things like Traitor Guard and Dark Mechanicum. To distinguish it from the Imperium, I think it would be awesome to have a range of Chaos mutant models, like beastmen and various toxic/corrupted monstrosities, to show just how random Chaos is.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 02:35:30


Post by: Mr Raptor


I'm only talking about the 40k game.

Personally i would much rather have:
- Chaos Space marines (including death guard, TS, ect...)
- Cultists (including dark ad mech, chaos knights, chaos worshippers...)
- Daemons (including all daemons)

That's 3 codex for a whole facet of the universe.

The issue with the multiplication of factions is that not only are there more faction books to buy, but also faction updates take excessively more time. Especially with how utterly slow GW is at correcting itself when something stupid is released. I'm tired of waiting 1.5 year to get a codex update for my faction while they do nothing on the side to make it better.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 02:43:08


Post by: JNAProductions


I assume, Raptor, you're also against SM Supplements?


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 02:45:04


Post by: PenitentJake


Couldn't agree more with OP.

I'm a Crusade player, and I'm running a campaign where two Cults- a Chaos Cult of Slaanesh and a GSC grow from 5-10 model kill teams to full armies.
GSC is easy- the breeding cycle sets the pattern for the growth of the cult; every unit in the dex has a place in the breeding cycle. Easy.
But I've had to invent it for chaos. The issue is that Cultists have no non-CSM HQ, meaning you can't make a cultist only detachment.

BSF units helped me do what needed to be done, to an extent. Renegade Psykers, Beastmen, Firebrands, Chaos Ogryns, Corrupted Guard and the Corrupted Comissar plus the Cultist entry from BSF and the Cultist entry from CSM give you SOMETHING to work with.

Here's what I did:

The Leader- I used the exact profile, PL and point cost for the Corrupt Comissar, but I used a classic necromunda Delaque to represent him and changed the unit name to Demagogue. I kicked out the Cult of the Abyss keyword, unit limits and Cult of the Abyss special rules.

Then I bought him 5 chaos cultists from CSM as a "Gang"; finally, I added a rogue psyker. They aren't great in matched play, but in Crusade, they are characters- meaning they can have WL traits, Relics, and they can improve their Psychic mastery over time through battle honours.

That's the starting gang.

The Demagogue does have a special piece of wargear- a needle pistol. His back story is that he is a bastard- his father was a noble who married for love, wedding a commoner instead of a noble; hence he was denied noble status at birth; it drove him to despair, and drug addiction. Eventually, he found his way to drugs tainted by Slaanesh, and he learned to compound their effects by combining them with heretical, violent music. (Think Semuta from Dune- that was my inspiration).

His needle pistol allows him to inject tainted drugs into others against their will to begin the process of corruption- as his victims survive the battle, only to succumb to withdrawal and nightmares, they inevitably seek him out to quench their thirst- and thats when he exposes them to the drug music combination that twists their souls.

The Smite of his Rogue Psyker has the same effect.

In game terms, if a smite or a needle pistol wound takes an enemy out of action, an equivalent of that enemy model is added to the Cults order of Battle.
In the beginning, the Cult is only strong enough to fight against the Thresher Houses- these are the Imperial nobles, and they fight like Imperial guard- they are an NPC faction.
If the Psyker suffers perils of the Warp, he is replaced in the Order of Battle by a herald of Slaanesh. The cult will then seek out another psyker.

When the Cult gets big enough, they can loot transports. They can also explore the outlands, which is where they find beastmen, who will join without a fight as chaos aligns with chaos. Some Thresher houses keep Ogryn slaves- they can be recruited in battle just like Threshers.

There is an NPC firebrand wandering the hive- if the Cult ever captures a territory where he is lurking, he will join.
Once the Cult is large enough, the Herald will teach them to summon demons; this is a ritual that must happen in battle; the enemy must try to prevent it. If they fail, daemonettes are added to the Order of Battle.

Out in the wastelands, there is a dormant Daemonforge deep beneath the surface. If the Cultists find enough clues (I'm modifying the Investigation ruleset from the Crusade Mission Pack), they can find this forge, convince the negavolt guardian to join them, and unlock both the dormant Slaughterfiend and Helldrake and access the Noctolith Crown to summon even more Daemons- and not just daemonettes this time.

If the Cult can do all of that without attraction the notice of the Imperium, Slaanesh herself will recognize the power of the nascent cult and send them noise marines under the command of a Dark Apostle.

And there goes the neighbourhood....



As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 03:00:49


Post by: Gadzilla666


A.T. wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
They could and probably should have a Guard and Ad Mech equivalent. Renegades and Heretics, and Dark Mech.
And also a genestealer cult guard equivalent, gue'vesa codex, regiment supplements, armies for all the chaos gods, squats, a khornes stormboyz codex, the unforgiven, an arbites codex, a traitor arbites codex, primaris chaos marines, traitor grey knights, traitor sisters, angry marines, eldar corsairs, eldar crone worlds, chaos squats?, the demiurge, codex kroot, charnel necrons, tagmata mechanicus, chaos tagmata mechanicus, imperial tyranids, grot tanks, siege assault vanguards, the emperors greenist, rogue traders, tyrants legion... and perhaps some single units spun off into their own codex like sternguard were to deathwatch. Codex Marbo anyone?

40k is just too bloated to start mirroring out factions into full books and lines without adding more years onto the release cycle of GWs lower priority factions. Marines and chaos marines probably make up half the range already.

You do realize that we already had a book once that did exactly this:

-Guardsman- wrote:I wouldn't make R&H symmetrical with IG. I think they should be less of an organized fighting force and more of a ragtag gang of revolutionaries including civilian cultists, rogue IG and PDF, and some Dark Mech and CSM auxiliaries.

.

The Renegades and Heretics list in IA 13 gave us exactly what the OP is asking for. And it didn't "add years onto GW'S release cycle". A 9th edition port of that army list would be easy, and the models are already ready to go. The Blackstone Fortress Traitor Guard models could be easily adapted for the infantry, and Guard vehicles with the requisite "chaos" vehicle sprue would provide the vehicles, along with a selection of the appropriate daemon engines from the csm list.

Ia 13 also gave us this:

Roknar wrote:The amount of heresy in this thread...
CSM are in a better position to be spiky marines than ever.

GW can do their restartes thing with loyalists, and give us the long overdue heresy era tech/OG style.
They don't look anything alike anymore. Put Primaris vehicles next to more or less chaosified heresy vehicles you wouldn't even assume they are both marine gear.
And it would be closer to the lore, doubly so now that imperial armour has basically gone the way of the dodo.

IA 13 provided the Legions the appropriate vehicles to represent their status as the ancient veterans of the Horus Heresy, not just a ragtag bunch of disparate warbands with spikes on their armour and some daemons in tow. Fw then doubled down on this with the 8th edition Indexes, where they locked the ancient relics of the Heresy behind the "Relic" rule for loyalists, while allowing the Legions to bring as many as they wanted, with no strings attached. This was because they understood, that unlike loyalists, for whom these vehicles were ancient relics, kept locked away in some fortress monastery mouldering for aeons rarely to see the light of day, these were just the same tools the Legions had always used, and have continued to use to this day.

And then came the gw rules team, taking over the rules for fw ,and ruining that dichotomy with their lazy copy paste job.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 04:02:16


Post by: A.T.


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The Renegades and Heretics list in IA 13 gave us exactly what the OP is asking for. And it didn't "add years onto GW'S release cycle".
Forgeworld are not eactly the poster boy for a company whose endless variants of loyalist marines and chaos aren't eating up all of the release schedule and pushing everything else out.

The existing traitor guard plastics are not nearly enough for GW to release a codex, but even discounting time to make the models GW spreads its models out so they don't clash - traitor guard - a couple of months - primaris - a couple of months - dark mechanicus - a couple of months - primaris, emperors children, primaris, world eaters, primaris - look back at the gaps between the new crons, admech and sisters model releases.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 04:23:14


Post by: Gadzilla666


A.T. wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The Renegades and Heretics list in IA 13 gave us exactly what the OP is asking for. And it didn't "add years onto GW'S release cycle".
Forgeworld are not eactly the poster boy for a company whose endless variants of loyalist marines and chaos aren't eating up all of the release schedule and pushing everything else out.

The existing traitor guard plastics are not nearly enough for GW to release a codex, but even discounting time to make the models GW spreads its models out so they don't clash - traitor guard - a couple of months - primaris - a couple of months - dark mechanicus - a couple of months - primaris, emperors children, primaris, world eaters, primaris - look back at the gaps between the new crons, admech and sisters model releases.

You're turning a wish for a single book that encompasses both Renegades and Heretics and Dark Mechanicus into four. OP said nothing about Emperor's Children or World Eaters. IA 13 did exactly what he wants, while also greatly expanding the options for csm. A single codex wouldn't push back your precious release schedule that much. At most you'd have to wait one more month for whatever codex you're waiting for.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 04:24:51


Post by: BrianDavion


As a CSM player I don't want codex chaos space marines to be turned into "codex random chaos stuff" by all means new codcies is a great idea, but don't dilute CSMs further


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 04:40:33


Post by: Castozor


I´d like a traitor guard/cult book but I do understand the concerns of some people. I also believe there are already too many factions as is, and while I understand some people want all kind of armies to be represented by their own book at some point there will be just too much.
But again, I would personally love to field a Blood Pact style chaos force so what gives.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 05:10:25


Post by: Hellebore


 Mr Raptor wrote:
The last thing I want for the game is the multiplication of factions.

Would you really like to separate chaos into:
- Chaos undivided
- Thousand sons
- Death guard
- World Eaters
- Emperor's children
- Chaos Cult
- Chaos Knights
- Dark Mechanicus
- Undivided Daemons
- Slaneesh daemons
- Khorne Daemons
- Tzeentch Daemon
- Nurgle Daemons
...

All with their own 50$ codex just for a few units ?

The game and the playerbase would be much better if GW stopped multiplying unnecessary factions differentiation just to sell their overpriced books.

What is next ? a codex for each tyranid Hive fleet ? Kroots codex ? A Primaris-only codex ? Bjorn's codex with only Bjorn ?

Sorry to be so negative, but i'd much rather GW never do a "Cultist" faction. I'm all for giving more options to CSM by giving them some flavorful additions that are not marines, but not a new chaos codex. Especially if it is just "spiky IG".



Whenever this question shows up, I always have the same answer - so long as GW is consistent with its treatment of factions, I don't care how it's divided up.

But while they spend their time and energy giving marines new units and books, they should be applying that non marine factions as well.

Either all divided into subfactions, or none are.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 05:15:22


Post by: H.B.M.C.


BrianDavion wrote:
As a CSM player I don't want codex chaos space marines to be turned into "codex random chaos stuff" by all means new codcies is a great idea, but don't dilute CSMs further
Yeah, Codex: Bits & Pieces doesn't have a great deal of appeal. That should be possible by mixing Codices, but not the single Codex itself.

I'd have a Lost & The Damned style Codex that covers Traitor Guard, Beastmen, and things that aren't CSMs. A CSM Codex would cover the non-dedicated Legions and Renegade Marines. Then Chaos Daemons (if they have to remain separate ), and the four dedicated Legions.

And then Chaos Knights I guess.



As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 05:30:06


Post by: hellpato


A big lol for my part. Is like you want to play Daemons with less daemons but more fallen angels.

Yes you can rework the Chaos concept into CSM, Daemons and Evil Human Army in one big book with a lot of option (that one i will sell my soul) but, as a CSM/Daemons player, I don't need less "marine centric", just a better synergy.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 08:37:44


Post by: Hecaton


 warmaster21 wrote:
there is only 1 fallen sister of battle, NO


That I don't believe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, OP, GW disagrees; they consciously nerfed Cultists in the 9e changeover. Enjoy your "Spiky marines who are inferior in every way to their loyalist counterparts." You're there to provide an edgy punching bag for little Timmy with his Primaris.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 08:47:53


Post by: Karol


But before that wasn't it the case that csm armies were running practicaly no csm, because cultists were cheaper and point for point better then csm?


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 09:35:07


Post by: BrianDavion


Hecaton wrote:
 warmaster21 wrote:
there is only 1 fallen sister of battle, NO


That I don't believe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, OP, GW disagrees; they consciously nerfed Cultists in the 9e changeover. Enjoy your "Spiky marines who are inferior in every way to their loyalist counterparts." You're there to provide an edgy punching bag for little Timmy with his Primaris.


I had no idea you knew what the next CSM codex would be like? care to tell us the new CSM Legion tactics?


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 09:42:53


Post by: Not Online!!!


BrianDavion wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
 warmaster21 wrote:
there is only 1 fallen sister of battle, NO


That I don't believe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, OP, GW disagrees; they consciously nerfed Cultists in the 9e changeover. Enjoy your "Spiky marines who are inferior in every way to their loyalist counterparts." You're there to provide an edgy punching bag for little Timmy with his Primaris.


I had no idea you knew what the next CSM codex would be like? care to tell us the new CSM Legion tactics?


No reason to be snarky about the obvious fact that GW doesn't want cultists to make up the troop choices of a CSM list.

Also the fact that only SM have been brought in line with the 2 w Marine bodies, even though a simple FAQ could've allready established that for ALL chaos side dexes.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
As a CSM player I don't want codex chaos space marines to be turned into "codex random chaos stuff" by all means new codcies is a great idea, but don't dilute CSMs further


What is there even left to dilute?

The legions? yea those even with a separate dex are frankly lackluster, the core CSM, well if you aren't BL then the core dex does jack all for you.

So what, the warband theme? yeah about that, CSM didn't even get a DIYS chapter trait builder so not even that theme is accurate.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kanluwen wrote:
For every time people say "go read IA13", I can't help but wonder if they actually read the Vraks, Lost and the Damned, and Tyrant's Legion lists.

They're extremely different concepts built around the same thing. It all varies wildly thanks to the design ethos of the times though.


Thank you i own all.

the issue with: Lost and the damned is:
Too marine centric, and allready represented theme within the csm dex.

The issue with vraks is, that it is solely the vraksian force, so 2 gods are out of the equation as option allready, as are other forces and organisations.

The issue with the tyrants legion is the same issue as with the Lost and the damned. Even more so because it is strongly tied to the Badab war and the Red corsairs.

That leaves us with IA 13. which gives out a general list including the most prominent types of armies that such a broad faction needed, allbeit in some cases a bit lacking in depth, but still was the best approximation for it.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 10:01:43


Post by: Cybtroll


Unfortunately GW seem to aim to the opposite, since cultist-heavy armies are not considered "good" for the game.

The irony is that the ALREADY have a solution ready to go; keywords.
Instead of using them to nerf/balance the Stratagems, they should better use keywords in army composition (I mean, we ALREADY have two level of keywords on the form of faction keywords).

How should it work? Simple: many armies (maybe not all, but let's say Guard Cults and Sisters for example) should be mirrored using keyword. Traitor Guard is a Guard armies with switch to the Faction keywords and special rules attached (maybe one or two special unit or weapons options).
GSC can became a Choas Cult changing faction keywords and using different level of hybrids to represent Possessed, half demon of full Demons... And so on so forth.

That should be material for Supplements, and those should not be reserved only to Marine variations (and I'm saying that as also a DA player).

If GW can't support creativity in modeling, conversions and experiments on fluffy stuff in a big big big galaxy they are already cutting the branchy hey sit on...

I haven't purchased a 40k mini for my main army in years (and usually I'm a big spender) because there are no interesting conversion opportunities... Lady that I made was based on 3rd parties model because those were much more interesting


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 10:06:27


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Cybtroll wrote:
Unfortunately GW seem to aim to the opposite, since cultist-heavy armies are not considered "good" for the game.

The irony is that the ALREADY have a solution ready to go; keywords.
Instead of using them to nerf/balance the Stratagems, they should better use keywords in army composition (I mean, we ALREADY have two level of keywords on the form of faction keywords).

How should it work? Simple: many armies (maybe not all, but let's say Guard Cults and Sisters for example) should be mirrored using keyword. Traitor Guard is a Guard armies with switch to the Faction keywords and special rules attached (maybe one or two special unit or weapons options).
GSC can became a Choas Cult changing faction keywords and using different level of hybrids to represent Possessed, half demon of full Demons... And so on so forth.

That should be material for Supplements, and those should not be reserved only to Marine variations (and I'm saying that as also a DA player).

If GW can't support creativity in modeling, conversions and experiments on fluffy stuff in a big big big galaxy they are already cutting the branchy hey sit on...

I haven't purchased a 40k mini for my main army in years (and usually I'm a big spender) because there are no interesting conversion opportunities... Lady that I made was based on 3rd parties model because those were much more interesting


the issue is not that GW can't, especially early GW actually encouraged conversion, no the issue is , as of right now, that after Chapterhouse GW doesn't want to, which is also a reason for monopose and Models --> rules , mostly out of concern a 3rd party could make an earning or weaken their IP rights.



As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 10:15:06


Post by: Esmer


One argument I've always seen against R&H getting their own Codex is that they would feel too "samey" to just playing Guard with spikier models.

Of course, that argument falls appart when you consider that we several independent Marine codizes.

Personally, I'd rather they went the AoS route with Chaos and put the god-specific legions, cultists and daemons in 4 separate books, and the undivided stuff in another. Codex Death Guard being around the corner suggest that won't happen though - unless it unexpectedly contains all Nurgle Daemon units.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 10:30:03


Post by: harlokin


 Cybtroll wrote:
Unfortunately GW seem to aim to the opposite, since cultist-heavy armies are not considered "good" for the game.


That's not unfortunate at all, quite the opposite.

What was unfortunate was, for much of 8th, having supposedly CSM armies without fething CSM in them.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 10:32:27


Post by: A.T.


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
You're turning a wish for a single book that encompasses both Renegades and Heretics and Dark Mechanicus into four.
I turned it into several dozen in my original reply, what makes this one wish special amongst the many calls for new factions. Chaos already have three, surely everyone else should get two more books first.
But it's not a criticism of chaos guard specifically, rather the fact that GW has massively bloated the game and adding <insert faction here> with spikes is pouring fuel on the dumpster fire.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 10:35:21


Post by: Not Online!!!


A.T. wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
You're turning a wish for a single book that encompasses both Renegades and Heretics and Dark Mechanicus into four.
I turned it into several dozen in my original reply, what makes this one wish special amongst the many calls for new factions. Chaos already have three, surely everyone else should get two more books first.
But it's not a criticism of chaos guard specifically, rather the fact that GW has massively bloated the game and adding <insert faction here> with spikes is pouring fuel on the dumpster fire.


Yeah that is why the faction that was allready there, representing it, and existed allready, has been soft squatted.

If you want to talk about Bloat and fuel on fire, talk about marines and supplements, not a non-PA army that allready existed and worked.
Or the vast majority of minidex booklet cut out factions, like Harlequins or ynnari.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 harlokin wrote:
 Cybtroll wrote:
Unfortunately GW seem to aim to the opposite, since cultist-heavy armies are not considered "good" for the game.


That's not unfortunate at all, quite the opposite.

What was unfortunate was, for much of 8th, having supposedly CSM armies without fething CSM in them.


If gw could be bothered to understand that AP-1 on boltguns means any PA without multiple wounds becomes essentially useless, for it's price and then proceed to add free AP on top of that via doctrines no wonder players are not going to invest into their updated CSM kits. It's just half the playing population getting to freely curb your most important defense stat for no price at all to them.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 12:23:38


Post by: Cybtroll


What kind of evaluation would you give on the workplace to someone that, when you have a problem with A (CSM), propose to solve the issue by changing B (Cultist)?

Don't know you, but in my book that's not an acceptable fix.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 12:58:11


Post by: A.T.


Not Online!!! wrote:
Yeah that is why the faction that was allready there, representing it, and existed allready, has been soft squatted.
If you want to talk about Bloat and fuel on fire, talk about marines and supplements, not a non-PA army that allready existed and worked.
Grot tanks were also soft squatted, and dozens of other factions. Codex D-99s anyone? GW had a whole seperate company dedicated to keeping these up to date and still couldn't manage it.

And yes, codex <insert chapter/legion/other> here is bloat. Credit I think to GW moving a little away from distinct codex releases to supplements, hamstrung of course by their insistence on models=rules over kitbashes.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 13:15:21


Post by: addnid


 Lord Damocles wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
A lot of Chaos marine units could be combined, which would free up more space for more non-Marines.

There is a relatively limited amount of design space for slightly different spikey humans though, which is a problem Cultists and Tzaangors already suffer from.

Take inspiration from GSC. They've got a lot of distinct units.

Eh. Neophtes and Brood Brothers have significant overlap, as do Acolytes and Matamorphs.


I have a large gen cult army, and i pray you don't get the 9th ed treatment we did. While not as inefficient as some claim it to be, gen cult is huge pain in the b... to play ATM, more than it ever was since ceration in 7th (which was when i strated my gen cult army). Actually, writing this, I think I am just going to ebay all of my gen cult and be done with em


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 13:56:24


Post by: Tycho


What I find funny here is, when was the last time you actually saw a marine in a Chaos Marine army?

But yeah, at the very least, I'd love to be able to have some cultisits loaded up in a few Chimeras or something like that. There's a world of flavor to be had by being able to do traitor guard or "Chaos Militia" etc.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 13:59:39


Post by: Dudeface


Casting my memory back to vraks, weren't the chaos marines elite choices for what was in essence renegades and heretics? You had all the chaff and mutants etc with a lord for a hq and a unit of marines as elites to support.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 14:13:34


Post by: Kanluwen


Dudeface wrote:
Casting my memory back to vraks, weren't the chaos marines elite choices for what was in essence renegades and heretics? You had all the chaff and mutants etc with a lord for a hq and a unit of marines as elites to support.

Which iteration of the list?


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 14:15:17


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Karol wrote:
But before that wasn't it the case that csm armies were running practicaly no csm, because cultists were cheaper and point for point better then csm?


Which is the problem.
CSM should be feared, cultists shouldn't even be in their codex.

This is how i feel chaos should be subdivided :

Renegades & Heretics
Chaos Knights
Dark Mechanicum
CSM
Deathguard + Nurgle demons
Thousand sons + Tzeentch demons
Emperors children + Slaanesh demons
World eaters + Khorne demons





As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 14:23:40


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Kanluwen wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Casting my memory back to vraks, weren't the chaos marines elite choices for what was in essence renegades and heretics? You had all the chaff and mutants etc with a lord for a hq and a unit of marines as elites to support.

Which iteration of the list?


The free vraks one had Alpha legionaires (aka squad of CSM with infiltrate) as an elite option.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 14:58:04


Post by: A.T.


Dudeface wrote:
Casting my memory back to vraks, weren't the chaos marines elite choices for what was in essence renegades and heretics? You had all the chaff and mutants etc with a lord for a hq and a unit of marines as elites to support.
Vraks 5 - 0-1 alpha legion elite
Vraks 6 - khorne champion and zerkers
Vraks 7 - nurgle champion and plague marines
After 3 years of renegades the releases stratched out a bit-
IA 9 - tyrant legion - guard with variant tactical and assault squads, character units, and heavy units taken from the loyalist marine books. Literally spikey marines.
IA 13 - allied battlebrothers for the entire chaos marine line, noise marines/dreads with the right HQ.
Vraks 5 v2 - no marines, battlebrothers with chaos, included 'the purge' which folded almost the entire chaos marine book in as unit options.
Imperial Armour Index Forces of the Astra Militarum - extra units and a list of imperial guard units that could be re-tagged to <chaos> and thrown into a chaos list/ally.

I fielded the IA13/5v2 renegades in a mixed tournament years ago - they made the krieg look like dads army. 144 points got you an obsec troops choice with toughness 7, 28 wounds, and 12 long range strength 5 small blast pinning(at -1) barrage attacks that created lingering dangerous terrain and could be fired into ongoing close combat.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 15:08:44


Post by: Not Online!!!


Technically IA13 allowed for sonic brutes and singular unit of noise marines.


Also, the Vraks v2 book in combination with the purge formation and the arty tyrant is the parade exemple why formations were fething nuts and needed the dodo.

Shame that gw reimplemented them partially with stratagems again...


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 15:15:09


Post by: A.T.


Not Online!!! wrote:
Technically IA13 allowed for sonic brutes and singular unit of noise marines.
Covenant of Slaanesh. I hadn't considered it given that the battlebrother rules were in by that point.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 15:19:47


Post by: Not Online!!!


A.T. wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Technically IA13 allowed for sonic brutes and singular unit of noise marines.
Covenant of Slaanesh. I hadn't considered it given that the battlebrother rules were in by that point.


Tbf, 6-7 th allies were a parade exemple shitshow.
the Purge formation shenanigans were on the "lighter" side compared to some of the other nonsense that one could pull. Taudar....

I do have half a feeling though, that if the allies rules , especially for BB wouldn't have been that synergistic, both editions wouldn't have turned out half as bad.

But then again GW didn't learn that allies were an issue until 9th...

Considering the initial wave of CHAOS tournament lists from 8th consiting of brimstones, Malefics , and later on the glorious CP farms + castlan + random blood angel with jumppack and a hammer produced in the 40k equivalent of china seemingly...

Atleast now those excesses were curbed, otoh we now have a ruleset with missions designed in a way that the first turn winrate is frankly even more nuts.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 16:19:02


Post by: dan2026


I said before that Chaos should be divided by god like AoS.

Khorne Marines should be a faction with Khorne Daemons

Nurgle Marines with Nurgle Daemons

Etc.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 16:38:04


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 dan2026 wrote:
I said before that Chaos should be divided by god like AoS.

Khorne Marines should be a faction with Khorne Daemons

Nurgle Marines with Nurgle Daemons

Etc.


yeah, and put unaligned demons (basically belakor) in the base CSM codex.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 17:54:04


Post by: The Salt Mine


 dan2026 wrote:
I said before that Chaos should be divided by god like AoS.

Khorne Marines should be a faction with Khorne Daemons

Nurgle Marines with Nurgle Daemons

Etc.


This right here. I don't understand how GW can write strong powerful thematic god specific codexes for AOS but fail so miserably to do the same thing in 40k.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 18:11:33


Post by: Dudeface


The Salt Mine wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
I said before that Chaos should be divided by god like AoS.

Khorne Marines should be a faction with Khorne Daemons

Nurgle Marines with Nurgle Daemons

Etc.


This right here. I don't understand how GW can write strong powerful thematic god specific codexes for AOS but fail so miserably to do the same thing in 40k.


I'd hazard the main problem is change. They'd wiped the slate clean for sigmar so there wasn't any awkward handovers or overlaps, they simply made the books how they wanted.

In 40k with DG or what would be nurgle next month, how would you manage having the most up to date rules for 1/4 of a codex daemons army in codex death guard, or given there are only 2 god specific books so far, what happens to the remaining daemons. If you propose WE/EC books, then the first half of 2021 would be chaos releases clustered together probably and you trigger the "oh no, more marines" fun again.

Then there is the chunk of people who own multi-god daemon forces currently who would; rightly in my eyes, simply quit rather than have to buy 4 codex to play their existing force.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 18:23:47


Post by: Grey Templar


A separate codex could be done. But I fear a "mortal followers of chaos" army would either look like an IG clone, or just a mishmash of Imperial Guard, CSM, and Daemons. Which you can do with allies anyway.

Thats not to say it couldn't be a passable codex. Its not like we don't have a ton of same'y codices already.

What the ideal Chaos Worshipper's codex would look like would probably be,

HQ Choices: Cult leader with some special abilities based around different marks and buffing the cult units. Generic Chaos Space Marine lords. Daemon Prince.

Troop Choices: Basic cultist unit, cheap with only moderate weapon variety. Traitor Imperial Guard, a more elite troop choice with higher end weapon choices.

Elite Choices: Generic Chaos Space Marines, count as troops for objectives and provide an elite unit. Daemons. Heavy weapon crews.

Fast Attack: Bike cultists could be cool. Sentinals, hijacked Imperial Guard vehicles, etc... Daemons. CSM with jetpacks.

Heavy Support: Hijacked Imperial Guard and CSM vehicles. Some sort of ramshackle artillery piece. An Armored Bulldozer with guns!


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 18:24:51


Post by: Snake Tortoise


I'd love to see renegades, but with dark mechanicum mixed in. Too many different factions isn't good.

In fact, I'd probably throw chaos knights in too. Make sure there are options in every FO slot so you can field pure dark mech/renegade/chaos knights lists


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 18:25:09


Post by: Saturmorn Carvilli


Tycho wrote:What I find funny here is, when was the last time you actually saw a marine in a Chaos Marine army?

But yeah, at the very least, I'd love to be able to have some cultisits loaded up in a few Chimeras or something like that. There's a world of flavor to be had by being able to do traitor guard or "Chaos Militia" etc.


About June-July when I was playing my Black Legion (spoiler is a photo of last time they were on the table) plus someone else in my gaming groupe when they brought their Night Lords. This is assuming you don't mean Death Guard or Thousand Sons as my group also has one of each of them too. I am nearly as insane as the Chaos Space Marines I field so I also run them in 10 man squads with Icon of Vengeance for that not-so-sweet Leadership 10, and I like the look of 10 man squads more than MSU. It just feels more Black Legion-y to me.

Spoiler:


I do agree with the idea that I don't want cultists completely removed from C: CSM. I technically don't even mind them being kinda point inefficient in terms of what you get when. I think their main draw being cheaper warm bodies and that's about it. That said, C:CSM needs more than two Troop options for a game. Since it is called C:CSM, maybe CSM should a good unit to take. Barring that, make regular CSM weak version of loyalist Firstborn but fewer points (basically V:tM's Shovelheads) and either move Chosen to Troops and/or create Veterans of the Long War CSM unit being more points but more than a match for Firstborn and/or Primaris.

VladimirHerzog wrote:
Karol wrote:
But before that wasn't it the case that csm armies were running practicaly no csm, because cultists were cheaper and point for point better then csm?


Which is the problem.
CSM should be feared, cultists shouldn't even be in their codex.

This is how i feel chaos should be subdivided :

Renegades & Heretics
Chaos Knights
Dark Mechanicum
CSM
Deathguard + Nurgle demons
Thousand sons + Tzeentch demons
Emperors children + Slaanesh demons
World eaters + Khorne demons


Again, I don't have an issue with CSM keeping Cultists. I am even okay with them being a bit more points than a R&H version as they serve more as a warm body slot filler saving a few points than as the core of an army. I also think that maybe in the case of something like Alpha Legion, make Tide of Traitors a legion specific stratagem or something.

I don't have much of an issue breaking of the codices like you listed. I think is works very well in Age of Sigmar. As a Slaves to Darkness player it really doesn't bother that most of my own army (mostly Chaos Warriors and Knights) is composed units that can also be in the Choas god specific factions without allying. S2D get enough to feel like their own even if they are a little more generic bad guys feeling because of it. That is kinda the draw for me anyways.

Again, I think CSM in particular would need their Troop options looked at. Actually, I think they need their Troop slot options looked at now only having the two. I feel that all 40k factions should have at least three as a rule of thumb since they should dictate the direction the army is going overall and everyone should have their version of Chaff, Normal, Elite to pick from.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 18:52:28


Post by: The Salt Mine


Dudeface wrote:
The Salt Mine wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
I said before that Chaos should be divided by god like AoS.

Khorne Marines should be a faction with Khorne Daemons

Nurgle Marines with Nurgle Daemons

Etc.


This right here. I don't understand how GW can write strong powerful thematic god specific codexes for AOS but fail so miserably to do the same thing in 40k.


I'd hazard the main problem is change. They'd wiped the slate clean for sigmar so there wasn't any awkward handovers or overlaps, they simply made the books how they wanted.

In 40k with DG or what would be nurgle next month, how would you manage having the most up to date rules for 1/4 of a codex daemons army in codex death guard, or given there are only 2 god specific books so far, what happens to the remaining daemons. If you propose WE/EC books, then the first half of 2021 would be chaos releases clustered together probably and you trigger the "oh no, more marines" fun again.

Then there is the chunk of people who own multi-god daemon forces currently who would; rightly in my eyes, simply quit rather than have to buy 4 codex to play their existing force.


AOS still has ways to run multi god armies as well. See the slaves to darkness and beastman books for example. Also the individual god books didn't come out all at once either. AOS really handless the mono god books well. Even if the warscroll isnt in the book if it can get a god specific mark it can be taken in those armies.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 19:03:58


Post by: Hecaton


Karol wrote:
But before that wasn't it the case that csm armies were running practicaly no csm, because cultists were cheaper and point for point better then csm?


Sure, but that's because CSM were crap rules-wise. Cultists were, too, but they were cheaper. GW's reaction isn't to make those units worth playing, though, like they would for loyalist Astartes - it was to instead nerf cultists by raising their points.

Personally, I'm in favor of keeping "Lost & the Damned/Renegades & Heretics", CSM, and Chaos Demons separate, but I can see the argument for aligning them by god. Regardless, in order to challenge the Imperium thematically, Chaos needs to be fleshed out as more than just "spiky marines."


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 19:17:34


Post by: Dudeface


The Salt Mine wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
The Salt Mine wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
I said before that Chaos should be divided by god like AoS.

Khorne Marines should be a faction with Khorne Daemons

Nurgle Marines with Nurgle Daemons

Etc.


This right here. I don't understand how GW can write strong powerful thematic god specific codexes for AOS but fail so miserably to do the same thing in 40k.


I'd hazard the main problem is change. They'd wiped the slate clean for sigmar so there wasn't any awkward handovers or overlaps, they simply made the books how they wanted.

In 40k with DG or what would be nurgle next month, how would you manage having the most up to date rules for 1/4 of a codex daemons army in codex death guard, or given there are only 2 god specific books so far, what happens to the remaining daemons. If you propose WE/EC books, then the first half of 2021 would be chaos releases clustered together probably and you trigger the "oh no, more marines" fun again.

Then there is the chunk of people who own multi-god daemon forces currently who would; rightly in my eyes, simply quit rather than have to buy 4 codex to play their existing force.


AOS still has ways to run multi god armies as well. See the slaves to darkness and beastman books for example. Also the individual god books didn't come out all at once either. AOS really handless the mono god books well. Even if the warscroll isnt in the book if it can get a god specific mark it can be taken in those armies.


The big difference there is the 40k profiles aren't free to access online, the slaves to darkness book doesn't give you the profiles for every daemon model as far as I'm aware, or points for that matter.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 19:35:08


Post by: Tycho


About June-July when I was playing my Black Legion (spoiler is a photo of last time they were on the table) plus someone else in my gaming groupe when they brought their Night Lords. This is assuming you don't mean Death Guard or Thousand Sons as my group also has one of each of them too. I am nearly as insane as the Chaos Space Marines I field so I also run them in 10 man squads with Icon of Vengeance for that not-so-sweet Leadership 10, and I like the look of 10 man squads more than MSU. It just feels more Black Legion-y to me.


Nice! No - I meant standard CSM. I actually have CSM, DG, AND Tsons and I'm also one of the rare CSM players who uses actual marines. My Iron Warriors list has 20 of them along with the cultists. I was more poking fun at the fact that the Cultists currently are, and have been, the better option.




As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 19:35:21


Post by: catbarf


I have to wonder if it'd really be so bad to have a set of rules that just says:

-Use the Astra Militarum codex.
-Replace the IMPERIUM keyword with Chaos.
-Use these regiments/covenants, relics, and warlord traits instead of the codex ones.
-Lose these unit options, gain these options (eg allow Conscripts to take melee weapons to represent mutant rabble).
-Lose these stratagems, gain these stratagems.

I mean, if chaos Guard aren't that different from loyalist Guard, no need to try to radically differentiate them.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 19:37:14


Post by: Tycho


I have to wonder if it'd really be so bad to have a set of rules that just says:

-Use the Astra Militarum codex.
-Replace the IMPERIUM keyword with Chaos.
-Use these regiments/covenants, relics, and warlord traits instead of the codex ones.
-Lose these unit options, gain these options (eg allow Conscripts to take melee weapons to represent mutant rabble).
-Lose these stratagems, gain these stratagems.

I mean, if chaos Guard aren't that different from loyalist Guard, no need to try to radically differentiate them.


This is where I'm at as well. I would love for something simple like this. Opens up so many doors.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 19:43:03


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Dudeface wrote:
The Salt Mine wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
I said before that Chaos should be divided by god like AoS.

Khorne Marines should be a faction with Khorne Daemons

Nurgle Marines with Nurgle Daemons

Etc.


This right here. I don't understand how GW can write strong powerful thematic god specific codexes for AOS but fail so miserably to do the same thing in 40k.


I'd hazard the main problem is change. They'd wiped the slate clean for sigmar so there wasn't any awkward handovers or overlaps, they simply made the books how they wanted.

In 40k with DG or what would be nurgle next month, how would you manage having the most up to date rules for 1/4 of a codex daemons army in codex death guard, or given there are only 2 god specific books so far, what happens to the remaining daemons. If you propose WE/EC books, then the first half of 2021 would be chaos releases clustered together probably and you trigger the "oh no, more marines" fun again.

Then there is the chunk of people who own multi-god daemon forces currently who would; rightly in my eyes, simply quit rather than have to buy 4 codex to play their existing force.


i mean, each god aligned demon is basically its own codex.... nurgle demons having a codex before the other ones isnt a problem


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 19:55:19


Post by: Saturmorn Carvilli


Tycho wrote:


Nice! No - I meant standard CSM. I actually have CSM, DG, AND Tsons and I'm also one of the rare CSM players who uses actual marines. My Iron Warriors list has 20 of them along with the cultists. I was more poking fun at the fact that the Cultists currently are, and have been, the better option.


I figured as much. I don't really like fielding cultists in my CSM army. Never have. So if I am bringing my Black Legion to a game my opponent can very much expect I will have at least 15 regular CSM though usually 30 with a heavy and special weapon. I do sometimes bring cultists, but they are usually the last unit added. Often because I have something like an extra 60-80 points that I can't do much with since I also tend to already run my units toy (read: war gear) heavy.

Admittedly, it isn't the most optimized. My group doesn't really like winning via army list and aren't hardcore competitive. I think most have nuclear competitive options available but don't find those game particularly enjoyable as they aren't the kind of stress we find fun. And no one in my group has to win to have fun. So we all kinda build armies we like to play. Sometimes there are blow outs, but for the most part as long as I am not bringing my GSC (bad codex + worst player) the winner isn't completely known before first dice roll.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 19:57:52


Post by: Voss


 Thadin wrote:
Wish granted. Invader ATVs, but with legs instead. Call them Lesser Defilers.


Or, really, 'in scale' defilers. A problem that haunts pretty much all the general CSM daemon engines except the Vencomcrawler


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 20:35:47


Post by: Charistoph


Mr Raptor wrote:I'm only talking about the 40k game.

It came right after someone after was talking about Kill Team, so, I went with that context.

Mr Raptor wrote:Personally i would much rather have:
- Chaos Space marines (including death guard, TS, ect...)
- Cultists (including dark ad mech, chaos knights, chaos worshippers...)
- Daemons (including all daemons)

That's 3 codex for a whole facet of the universe.

The issue with the multiplication of factions is that not only are there more faction books to buy, but also faction updates take excessively more time. Especially with how utterly slow GW is at correcting itself when something stupid is released. I'm tired of waiting 1.5 year to get a codex update for my faction while they do nothing on the side to make it better.

There are two ways to approach Chaos codices. What you posted above, and divesting them between their loyalties, such as the Thousand Sons and Death Guard codicies that currently exist, which is why I stated up to 6 is possible.

A lot is based on what you want to be working together without problem. Death Guard and Plaguebearers or Plaguebearers and Horrors. By the listing your presenting, it is Plaguebearers with Horrors.

Of course it is easier to have certain consistencies with the set up you provided, but there needs to be built in methods to make it as easy, if not easier, for Death Guard, Plaguebearers, and Nurgle-marked IG, as it is for Marines with IG and Grey Knights.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 21:29:11


Post by: Ancestral Hamster


That's how the Codex: Armageddon handled the introduction of Black Templars, Salamanders, Speed Freaks, Steel Legion, and PDF. Now some lists were better developed than others, but this would be a workable compromise over a $50 hardcover for every new chaos variant proposed. Thus players who want the variants can have them and GW only adds 1 new product (with associated production and handling costs). However, if GW's current policy is "no model, no rules", then there is no point since they are protecting themselves from 3rd party designs, and will not support any model they are not currently producing or planning to produce.

 catbarf wrote:
I have to wonder if it'd really be so bad to have a set of rules that just says:

-Use the Astra Militarum codex.
-Replace the IMPERIUM keyword with Chaos.
-Use these regiments/covenants, relics, and warlord traits instead of the codex ones.
-Lose these unit options, gain these options (eg allow Conscripts to take melee weapons to represent mutant rabble).
-Lose these stratagems, gain these stratagems.

I mean, if chaos Guard aren't that different from loyalist Guard, no need to try to radically differentiate them.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 22:43:35


Post by: Rosebuddy


Hecaton wrote:
Karol wrote:
But before that wasn't it the case that csm armies were running practicaly no csm, because cultists were cheaper and point for point better then csm?


Sure, but that's because CSM were crap rules-wise. Cultists were, too, but they were cheaper. GW's reaction isn't to make those units worth playing, though, like they would for loyalist Astartes - it was to instead nerf cultists by raising their points.

Personally, I'm in favor of keeping "Lost & the Damned/Renegades & Heretics", CSM, and Chaos Demons separate, but I can see the argument for aligning them by god. Regardless, in order to challenge the Imperium thematically, Chaos needs to be fleshed out as more than just "spiky marines."


The simple way of differentiating the strictly separated commande structures of the Imperium and the loosey-goosey rival warband nature of the Chaos Legions is to mix cultists, mutants, daemons and marines in one army. Only marines and daemons need to be different depending on which god they belong to, anyway. Cultists and mutants don't absolutely need to be separate units, either. So instead of just being meaner-looking marines they're marines with access to chaff infantry as well as weird shock troopers. This would come at the cost of razorbacks, land speeders and other specialised and new equipment that needs the superior logistical capabilities of the Imperium. Maybe CSM don't have much access to drop pods because they generally lack the ability to pick them back up again or produce a lot more after a botched raid? Maybe only the lord of the warband would have the clout to spend that sort of thing on his personal battlefield entrance?

Another way to further differentiate the two is in which weapons they use and how they approach handing guns out. Imperial marines have doctrines and defined vehicle variants that are designed from the ground up to perform specific roles according to specific standards. Whereas Chaos marines just grab guns with the range they prefer fighting in and solder whatever available weaponry they have onto whatever vehicle chassis they have. They won't bother naming a new land raider variant, they'll just bolt some flamethrowers to the sides and a plasma cannon ripped from a dreadnought that pissed them off for the last time up front. Did your predator's turret take a hit on the last raid and now the reloading mechanism is scrap? Tough luck, you got no proper replacements and have to wire a missile launcher into there if you don't want to catch hell from your masters. Same goes for infantry weapons, if you've stolen a crate of grenade launchers, heavy stubbers, mortars or similar low-tech things that even the Imperial Guard uses then you're gonna give them to your shooty-obsessed dudes.


Thinking about it, if CSM were more ferocious but bordering on over-armed that'd be a neat drawback. Like, a squad would pack bolters, bolt pistols, knives and worse, grenades, hand flamers and whatever else submachinegun or chainsword each individual could get their hands on in addition to specialist troopers with grenade launchers and assault specialists with power axes and plasma pistols. Positively bristling with firepower when a more sensible approach would be sufficient. To say nothing of what the champion would demand! CSM don't become squad leaders by being tactically minded, they do it by being awful murderers. Of course they wouldn't want a feebler gun than the people they boss around. Of course they'd nab that shiny new meltagun or autocannon. They're here to cause havoc, not be orderly. They follow the legion ethos of overwhelming might, not the chapter ethos of precise assault. Chaos marines aren't about restraint, even when it would benefit them.


Additionally I would like rules for possession that aren't just one, single unit type with no upgrades or weapons of their own. Preferably as an upgrade to existing CSM units so you can have possessed bikers or whatever, or possessed HQ dudes. It'd be fun.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 23:13:52


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Rosebuddy wrote:

The simple way of differentiating the strictly separated commande structures of the Imperium and the loosey-goosey rival warband nature of the Chaos Legions is to mix cultists, mutants, daemons and marines in one army. Only marines and daemons need to be different depending on which god they belong to, anyway. Cultists and mutants don't absolutely need to be separate units, either. So instead of just being meaner-looking marines they're marines with access to chaff infantry as well as weird shock troopers. This would come at the cost of razorbacks, land speeders and other specialised and new equipment that needs the superior logistical capabilities of the Imperium. Maybe CSM don't have much access to drop pods because they generally lack the ability to pick them back up again or produce a lot more after a botched raid? Maybe only the lord of the warband would have the clout to spend that sort of thing on his personal battlefield entrance?

Another way to further differentiate the two is in which weapons they use and how they approach handing guns out. Imperial marines have doctrines and defined vehicle variants that are designed from the ground up to perform specific roles according to specific standards. Whereas Chaos marines just grab guns with the range they prefer fighting in and solder whatever available weaponry they have onto whatever vehicle chassis they have. They won't bother naming a new land raider variant, they'll just bolt some flamethrowers to the sides and a plasma cannon ripped from a dreadnought that pissed them off for the last time up front. Did your predator's turret take a hit on the last raid and now the reloading mechanism is scrap? Tough luck, you got no proper replacements and have to wire a missile launcher into there if you don't want to catch hell from your masters. Same goes for infantry weapons, if you've stolen a crate of grenade launchers, heavy stubbers, mortars or similar low-tech things that even the Imperial Guard uses then you're gonna give them to your shooty-obsessed dudes.


Thinking about it, if CSM were more ferocious but bordering on over-armed that'd be a neat drawback. Like, a squad would pack bolters, bolt pistols, knives and worse, grenades, hand flamers and whatever else submachinegun or chainsword each individual could get their hands on in addition to specialist troopers with grenade launchers and assault specialists with power axes and plasma pistols. Positively bristling with firepower when a more sensible approach would be sufficient. To say nothing of what the champion would demand! CSM don't become squad leaders by being tactically minded, they do it by being awful murderers. Of course they wouldn't want a feebler gun than the people they boss around. Of course they'd nab that shiny new meltagun or autocannon. They're here to cause havoc, not be orderly. They follow the legion ethos of overwhelming might, not the chapter ethos of precise assault. Chaos marines aren't about restraint, even when it would benefit them.


Additionally I would like rules for possession that aren't just one, single unit type with no upgrades or weapons of their own. Preferably as an upgrade to existing CSM units so you can have possessed bikers or whatever, or possessed HQ dudes. It'd be fun.


CSM have access to regular drop pods in the fluff. They still have their old infrastructure from before the heresy. They also use land speeders in the fluff. Its not like CSM don't have access to the Dark mechanicum.
They also have warpsmiths to maintain their vehicles so no, a fethed autoloader doesnt mean they can't fix it.

Your perception of what CSM are seems to be really off the mark. The only thing i can agree with is that they should have less restrictions on weapons overall. Oh, and basic CSMs should be allowed to take bolters AND chainswords.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/20 23:59:21


Post by: Rosebuddy


A Black Crusade absolutely should pull all the stops but CSM definitely don't have pre-heresy infrastructure. They can't openly recruit from Imperial space, they can't access Imperial materials, shipyards, factory worlds or the whole collected knowledge and training of Imperial institutions. Everything the traitors have is more selfish and more splintered than their Imperial counterparts. Quite the feat! The natural unit of the CSM isn't the legion, it's the warband.

"Realistically" a warband could have access to absolutely any single vehicle or gun that they could've stolen from anywhere or even built themselves in workshops set up by engineers unfettered by Imperial doctrine, whether through worship of the Chaos gods or by virtue of being aliens. Why wouldn't you be able to have a champion blessed by Khorne to understand any weapon who drives around in a tau tank? Why wouldn't you be able to have a possessed apothecary using daemonic inspiration to spawn countless genespliced bioweapons copying everything from orcs to tyranids? You can legit write a story about anything.

But the list should represent what the CSM warbands can more reliably access and in a way that is flavourfully distinct from Imperial marines. That's why I'm suggesting a broader range of weapons and a lack of codified variants, born out of necessity from their degraded material conditions. I mean, it kind of was a big point that the traitor legions used outdated technology and thus didn't have land speeders, attack bikes, marine-portable plasma cannons or storm bolters etc etc because those were all post-heresy inventions.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/21 02:20:40


Post by: Gadzilla666


Rosebuddy wrote:
A Black Crusade absolutely should pull all the stops but CSM definitely don't have pre-heresy infrastructure. They can't openly recruit from Imperial space, they can't access Imperial materials, shipyards, factory worlds or the whole collected knowledge and training of Imperial institutions. Everything the traitors have is more selfish and more splintered than their Imperial counterparts. Quite the feat! The natural unit of the CSM isn't the legion, it's the warband.

"Realistically" a warband could have access to absolutely any single vehicle or gun that they could've stolen from anywhere or even built themselves in workshops set up by engineers unfettered by Imperial doctrine, whether through worship of the Chaos gods or by virtue of being aliens. Why wouldn't you be able to have a champion blessed by Khorne to understand any weapon who drives around in a tau tank? Why wouldn't you be able to have a possessed apothecary using daemonic inspiration to spawn countless genespliced bioweapons copying everything from orcs to tyranids? You can legit write a story about anything.

But the list should represent what the CSM warbands can more reliably access and in a way that is flavourfully distinct from Imperial marines. That's why I'm suggesting a broader range of weapons and a lack of codified variants, born out of necessity from their degraded material conditions. I mean, it kind of was a big point that the traitor legions used outdated technology and thus didn't have land speeders, attack bikes, marine-portable plasma cannons or storm bolters etc etc because those were all post-heresy inventions.

Your personal headcannon is quite well developed, do you have all of this fan fiction written down somewhere?

The natural unit of a Legionnaire is the Legion. The Legions absolutely have infrastructure. They have their own planets and systems within the Eye. And now with the opening of the Great Rift they have them outside of it as well.

And they work with the Dark Mechanicus, who have their own Forge Worlds, called Hellforges. You know, like all those "Hellforged" weapons and vehicles they have. Those are referred to as "Hellforged" because they're built, repaired, and maintained at Hellforges. And that includes all those lovely Heresy pattern weapons and vehicles referred to as "Hellforged" as well, because on their way to the Eye the Legions stole a lot of stcs from the broken Imperium, and they still have them. And even then, the Dark Mechanicus has no problems reverse engineering things like the Mechanicus does.

The Legions are just as organized and well equipped as they ever were, otherwise a bunch of "warbands" would never have broken the back of the Imperium's defenses and split the galaxy in two.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/21 02:49:00


Post by: Hecaton


Except that only the Black Legion and Death Guard have been operating as coherent legions. Plus whatever it is the 1k sons are doing.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/21 02:50:32


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Hecaton wrote:
Except that only the Black Legion and Death Guard have been operating as coherent legions. Plus whatever it is the 1k sons are doing.


They still have the infrastructure to maintain heresy-era gear


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/21 03:06:39


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Hecaton wrote:
Except that only the Black Legion and Death Guard have been operating as coherent legions. Plus whatever it is the 1k sons are doing.
Iron Warriors are cohesive as well, along with Alpha Legion... Word Bearers too.. People tend to forget, but these do have massive legions still within the fluff, along with various warbands in their name. The only ones that are truly scattered about are EC, WE, and NL.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/21 04:07:22


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I have no argument to post in regards to what you said. I just wanted to say that I like it when you post pics of your stuff, as it always looks awesome.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/21 04:44:42


Post by: vecuu


 Mr Raptor wrote:

What is next ? a codex for each tyranid Hive fleet ? Kroots codex ? A Primaris-only codex ? Bjorn's codex with only Bjorn ?.


If only you knew how much I would love that.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/21 07:03:08


Post by: Gadzilla666


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Except that only the Black Legion and Death Guard have been operating as coherent legions. Plus whatever it is the 1k sons are doing.
Iron Warriors are cohesive as well, along with Alpha Legion... Word Bearers too.. People tend to forget, but these do have massive legions still within the fluff, along with various warbands in their name. The only ones that are truly scattered about are EC, WE, and NL.

The Night Lords can still band together when they need to. See the gathering of the Legion to attack Craftworld Ulthwe at the end of Void Stalker. The 8th edition codex also mentions that after the opening of the Great Rift they are: "Long scattered, they are uniting, warband by warband, in the name of some dire cause ". So even the more scattered Legions can gather their forces when they want.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/21 07:21:31


Post by: Esmer


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Except that only the Black Legion and Death Guard have been operating as coherent legions. Plus whatever it is the 1k sons are doing.
Iron Warriors are cohesive as well, along with Alpha Legion... Word Bearers too.. People tend to forget, but these do have massive legions still within the fluff, along with various warbands in their name. The only ones that are truly scattered about are EC, WE, and NL.


Are Iron Warriors cohesive though? They are fighting massive civil wars between themselves in the BL novels.

Alpha Legion I always saw as operating in independent cells scattered throughout the galaxy. It would also fit their stealthy/spec-ops theme and the self-contradicting lore bits on their true allegiance.



As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/21 08:12:49


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Esmer wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Except that only the Black Legion and Death Guard have been operating as coherent legions. Plus whatever it is the 1k sons are doing.
Iron Warriors are cohesive as well, along with Alpha Legion... Word Bearers too.. People tend to forget, but these do have massive legions still within the fluff, along with various warbands in their name. The only ones that are truly scattered about are EC, WE, and NL.


Are Iron Warriors cohesive though? They are fighting massive civil wars between themselves in the BL novels.

Alpha Legion I always saw as operating in independent cells scattered throughout the galaxy. It would also fit their stealthy/spec-ops theme and the self-contradicting lore bits on their true allegiance.


They fight those civil wars and end them, to cull the weak in their ranks, on order of perturabo. And considering they make their own marines liberally...

As for AL, considering that they seamlessy fold into one another with no visible infighting when they amass in force they do infact have organisational structures. Probably even better ones then the ones in the eye, else you'd not be able to pull the shenanigans they do.



As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/21 09:37:59


Post by: Iracundus


All the Legions are to some degree less coherent than they were in the Heresy days because they have had to adapt to the warband model, centered around Champions.

They might retain some of their old organizational titles but that is really more remnant trappings of the past. What you have are warbands of varying sizes, and these banding together under a leader and you have all the attendant infighting. Once in awhile, a warlord holds together enough of a temporary alliance of warbands to constitute a Black Crusade, but these eventually splinter when the warlord dies or as warbands break off to pursue their own goals.

Even the Daemon Primarchs, while retaining perhaps what might be called a core of their old Legion, are really just gigantic warband leaders. By warband leaders, I mean they lead through their own individual personality, power and charisma, rather than through their followers having loyalty in a structure and chain of command.

I think some of the old Realms of Chaos books talked about how the Legion structure began to break down. Who becomes a Champion is not necessarily the highest rank in a formation. So what happens when a Sergeant gets a Chaos Mark and becomes a Champion, while the Captain doesn't? How does the Captain continue to maintain authority when one of his subordinates starts to show unmistakable signs of divine favor? You get a schism of command eventually.

Anyway, the focus on CSM dates from 2nd edition, as explained by Andy Chambers in the designer notes of that edition's Chaos Codex which I am looking at right now as I type this out. Basically the goal was to achieve a more unified feel for Chaos because back in the Realms of Chaos days it was a varied mix of mutants, cultists, daemons and CSM. However it was felt this created an unfocused "bitty" look on the table.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/21 12:31:28


Post by: A.T.


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Your personal headcannon is quite well developed, do you have all of this fan fiction written down somewhere?
Apparently so -

Little remains of the organised Legions that waged war upon ancient Terra. Millennia of jealousies and infighting have broken down the Legions into companies and warbands of varying sizes. Each is led by a captain or champion of Chaos who pursues his own destiny. Themost fervent worshippers of the Dark Powers band together to form squads blessed by a patron god and bear their mark upon their bodies and armour. Most have simply sworn themselves to all of the Chaos Gods.
Chaos Codex, 8th edition, Page 12.

The Black Legion is made up of many warbands whose appearance and motivations vary wildly, but all are guided by the implacable will of Abaddon the Despoiler and so broadly employ the same tactics in battle.
Chaos Codex, 8th edition, Page 17.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/21 13:09:41


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


In response to the OP, I do and don’t agree.

I absolutely agree Chaos needs to be expanded. Not necessarily to just have naughty equivalents to the Imperium’s armies though. But a solid Lost and the Damned force would do much of the legwork - and could even provide a springboard for forces within to be spun off into full Codexes of their own.

But, CSM absolutely need to remain a cohesive force unto themselves.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/21 13:59:10


Post by: Eldarsif


To OP.

I agree to a point. I think AoS has done this well by making each book Daemon specific with a wealth of choices within the books themselves(although Hedonites could do with more mortals).


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/21 19:53:10


Post by: Hecaton


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
They still have the infrastructure to maintain heresy-era gear


In some cases yes, in some cases no.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Except that only the Black Legion and Death Guard have been operating as coherent legions. Plus whatever it is the 1k sons are doing.
Iron Warriors are cohesive as well, along with Alpha Legion... Word Bearers too.. People tend to forget, but these do have massive legions still within the fluff, along with various warbands in their name. The only ones that are truly scattered about are EC, WE, and NL.


Nah. Black Legion is the only one that still works as a legion, at least until Mortarion started being more active.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/21 23:07:25


Post by: macluvin


I think it would be cool to see renegades and heretics get a legit reboot, but the whole chaos tearing the galaxy a new butthole was brought on by chaos legions, and what remains of them as well as fresh heretic marines falling to chaos does still make up the arch enemy of man kind right now. I think it is centric because chaos space marines are the ones that messed everything up and consistently cause more and more problems for humanity. I do think that the writers have conveniently neglected the hordes of traitor guard, cultist uprisings, and heretic world defense forces and throne knows what other mere mortals that would champion chaos, and their significant role in chaos space marines being able to destroy Cadia for example, and I agree that they should be accredited for doing most of the work.. Chaos space marines are generally the most interesting dynamic to me though.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 00:30:40


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Hecaton wrote:
Black Legion is the only one that still works as a legion, at least until Mortarion started being more active.
That is not even slightly true.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 03:21:55


Post by: Gadzilla666


A.T. wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Your personal headcannon is quite well developed, do you have all of this fan fiction written down somewhere?
Apparently so -

Little remains of the organised Legions that waged war upon ancient Terra. Millennia of jealousies and infighting have broken down the Legions into companies and warbands of varying sizes. Each is led by a captain or champion of Chaos who pursues his own destiny. Themost fervent worshippers of the Dark Powers band together to form squads blessed by a patron god and bear their mark upon their bodies and armour. Most have simply sworn themselves to all of the Chaos Gods.
Chaos Codex, 8th edition, Page 12.

The Black Legion is made up of many warbands whose appearance and motivations vary wildly, but all are guided by the implacable will of Abaddon the Despoiler and so broadly employ the same tactics in battle.
Chaos Codex, 8th edition, Page 17.

The Eye of Terror is known to be home to the darkest evils of the galaxy. At the height of the Horus Heresy the Traitor Legions were driven from Holy Terra and naturally sought shelter within the Realm of Chaos. Each Legion claimed for itself a new homeworld, moulding it to its own perverse designs.
Codex: Chaos Space Marines, 3rd edition, Page 7.

Sounds like all those "companies and warbands of varying sizes" like to have a place they can hang out together. Almost like they still feel some kind of bond of brotherhood. Like some kind of Legion.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hecaton wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
They still have the infrastructure to maintain heresy-era gear


In some cases yes, in some cases no.

Hellforges listed and described in IA 13:

Xana II
Rethlaxi
The Silent Forge
Abhielung
Cyclotrathe
Samech
Uraniborg 1572
Temporia
Sarum
Crucible-Omega

Exactly who do you think all these Hellforges are producing arms and equipment for? The Tau?


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 03:52:54


Post by: Canadian 5th


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
A.T. wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Your personal headcannon is quite well developed, do you have all of this fan fiction written down somewhere?
Apparently so -

Little remains of the organised Legions that waged war upon ancient Terra. Millennia of jealousies and infighting have broken down the Legions into companies and warbands of varying sizes. Each is led by a captain or champion of Chaos who pursues his own destiny. Themost fervent worshippers of the Dark Powers band together to form squads blessed by a patron god and bear their mark upon their bodies and armour. Most have simply sworn themselves to all of the Chaos Gods.
Chaos Codex, 8th edition, Page 12.

The Black Legion is made up of many warbands whose appearance and motivations vary wildly, but all are guided by the implacable will of Abaddon the Despoiler and so broadly employ the same tactics in battle.
Chaos Codex, 8th edition, Page 17.

The Eye of Terror is known to be home to the darkest evils of the galaxy. At the height of the Horus Heresy the Traitor Legions were driven from Holy Terra and naturally sought shelter within the Realm of Chaos. Each Legion claimed for itself a new homeworld, moulding it to its own perverse designs.
Codex: Chaos Space Marines, 3rd edition, Page 7.

Sounds like all those "companies and warbands of varying sizes" like to have a place they can hang out together. Almost like they still feel some kind of bond of brotherhood. Like some kind of Legion.

Except that a legion isn't just a bunch of warriors that are all sworn in under the same ancient banner. A legion IS its command structure, systems of promotions, and regimented training. If any of those break down you no longer have a legion as it was before the heresy.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 04:54:34


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Canadian 5th wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
A.T. wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Your personal headcannon is quite well developed, do you have all of this fan fiction written down somewhere?
Apparently so -

Little remains of the organised Legions that waged war upon ancient Terra. Millennia of jealousies and infighting have broken down the Legions into companies and warbands of varying sizes. Each is led by a captain or champion of Chaos who pursues his own destiny. Themost fervent worshippers of the Dark Powers band together to form squads blessed by a patron god and bear their mark upon their bodies and armour. Most have simply sworn themselves to all of the Chaos Gods.
Chaos Codex, 8th edition, Page 12.

The Black Legion is made up of many warbands whose appearance and motivations vary wildly, but all are guided by the implacable will of Abaddon the Despoiler and so broadly employ the same tactics in battle.
Chaos Codex, 8th edition, Page 17.

The Eye of Terror is known to be home to the darkest evils of the galaxy. At the height of the Horus Heresy the Traitor Legions were driven from Holy Terra and naturally sought shelter within the Realm of Chaos. Each Legion claimed for itself a new homeworld, moulding it to its own perverse designs.
Codex: Chaos Space Marines, 3rd edition, Page 7.

Sounds like all those "companies and warbands of varying sizes" like to have a place they can hang out together. Almost like they still feel some kind of bond of brotherhood. Like some kind of Legion.

Except that a legion isn't just a bunch of warriors that are all sworn in under the same ancient banner. A legion IS its command structure, systems of promotions, and regimented training. If any of those break down you no longer have a legion as it was before the heresy.

And how do you know none of them have those things now? All the Legions, or "warbands", have a command structure. They obviously have a leader, and they then have subordinates who have command over their own squads. There's a reason every squad of csm has an Aspiring Champion who fulfills the same function as the Sergeant in a squad of loyalists.

And they have systems of promotion, they're just not the same as loyalists. Some Legions never were. Internecine violence was always a way for upward mobility among the ranks of the Night Lords, even during the Crusade. Much of their command structure was based on the gang culture of Nostromo. And where does it say that they don't train? If anything, what's better training than millennia of constant warfare?


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 05:40:40


Post by: Castozor


Yeh the Legions being functionally dead is an odd take for me. I can only speak for my own, the Death Guard, but what I've read so far seems to indicate that the DG have a very strict hierarchy pre- and post Heresy. Sure they are often scattered as war bands nowadays, but there is still a clear line of command when needed. Whoever is lower obeys whoever is higher with the obvious exception of Typhus and Mortarion, who don't get along well.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 06:36:53


Post by: Charistoph


Hecaton wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Except that only the Black Legion and Death Guard have been operating as coherent legions. Plus whatever it is the 1k sons are doing.
Iron Warriors are cohesive as well, along with Alpha Legion... Word Bearers too.. People tend to forget, but these do have massive legions still within the fluff, along with various warbands in their name. The only ones that are truly scattered about are EC, WE, and NL.

Nah. Black Legion is the only one that still works as a legion, at least until Mortarion started being more active.

Not necessarily. Alpha Legion's operations haven't really changed THAT much since before the Heresy. They've always been set up more as scattered warbands than a cohesive Legion like the Black Legion. But that's more of a case of their style than anything else.

And just because the Imperium has only seen most of the rest operate as Warbands, doesn't mean their old command structure doesn't have some sway over them.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 07:00:06


Post by: Esmer


Not Online!!! wrote:
 Esmer wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Except that only the Black Legion and Death Guard have been operating as coherent legions. Plus whatever it is the 1k sons are doing.
Iron Warriors are cohesive as well, along with Alpha Legion... Word Bearers too.. People tend to forget, but these do have massive legions still within the fluff, along with various warbands in their name. The only ones that are truly scattered about are EC, WE, and NL.


Are Iron Warriors cohesive though? They are fighting massive civil wars between themselves in the BL novels.

Alpha Legion I always saw as operating in independent cells scattered throughout the galaxy. It would also fit their stealthy/spec-ops theme and the self-contradicting lore bits on their true allegiance.


They fight those civil wars and end them, to cull the weak in their ranks, on order of perturabo.



Not sure about that. The one depicted in "Dead Sky, Black Sun" was about the personal vendettas between Honsou and some other Warsmiths. No mention of Perturabo anywhere in the book from what I recall, though he may have been linked to the events in later novels.
Likewise, the Iron Warriors Company in the "Beast Arises" series seems to have acted pretty independently from Perturabo as well.

Of course, this was the pre-8th edition fluff were pretty much all of the Daemon Primarchs minus Angron were doing nothing but sitting around on their fat demonic asses in their respective demonic lairs for the past 10,000 years. He may have been re-written to take a more pro-active role in more recent lore.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 11:27:48


Post by: A.T.


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Sounds like all those "companies and warbands of varying sizes" like to have a place they can hang out together. Almost like they still feel some kind of bond of brotherhood. Like some kind of Legion.
Sounds like all those "companies and warbands" are broken down by millenia of infighting bands and by individuals purusing their own jealous interests.

As your quote indicates they were coherent legions at the end of the heresy, but that was over ten thousand years ago. Beyond that you'd have to take any disagreement on headcannon to GW themselves - i'm just copy/pasting from the latest codex.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 11:39:29


Post by: Ordana


Word Bearer novels have consistently painted them as a mostly coherent legion after the Heresy.

Read any of Dark Apostle, Dark Creed or Dark Disciple and you will see mentions of the structure and chain of command that still exists beyond warbands.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 12:26:16


Post by: Sunny Side Up


Hecaton wrote:
Except that only the Black Legion and Death Guard have been operating as coherent legions. Plus whatever it is the 1k sons are doing.


In the lore? Usually trying to find and kill Ahriman at all costs


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 12:58:40


Post by: Rosebuddy


Obviously many of the warbands can form under the common banner of their legion. If Perturabo sends out his mightiest to gather as many Iron Warriors as they can, that's going to happen. They'll pool together all their siege engines and build even meaner ones. But up until that point they're often rivals if not outright enemies and each band gathers its own materiel. That's what I think that a CSM army list should reflect. Not every single thing that a primarch can command when they launch an all-out offensive but the more common reality for the warbands.

The point is to make a CSM list that isn't just spiky space marines and giving them capital-e Evil counterparts to everything that Imperial marines has is counterproductive to that.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 16:40:14


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Rosebuddy wrote:
Obviously many of the warbands can form under the common banner of their legion. If Perturabo sends out his mightiest to gather as many Iron Warriors as they can, that's going to happen. They'll pool together all their siege engines and build even meaner ones. But up until that point they're often rivals if not outright enemies and each band gathers its own materiel. That's what I think that a CSM army list should reflect. Not every single thing that a primarch can command when they launch an all-out offensive but the more common reality for the warbands.

The point is to make a CSM list that isn't just spiky space marines and giving them capital-e Evil counterparts to everything that Imperial marines has is counterproductive to that.


loyalists get cawl tech. Traitors get heresy-era tech.

Thats how you differentiate between the two. The problem is that now CSM are penalized for taking HH stuff because for some reason they also have to pay for martial legacy. And now primaris are getting volkite again so thats even more stuff that should be for CSM only that primaris are taking.

CSM should be marine-centric. If you want to add cultists/militia then just make an actual Renegades and Heretics codex instead of legending it.

Chaos as a whole is fethed right now because GW doesnt seem to want to give support to anything else than primaris. Make R&H, make Dark mechanicus (heck, you just need to give the FW stuff 40k rules and you'd already have a big part of the army done), and make God-centric codexes that include the corresponding legion (DG+nurgle demons, etc)


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 16:58:32


Post by: xerxeskingofking


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Rosebuddy wrote:
Obviously many of the warbands can form under the common banner of their legion. If Perturabo sends out his mightiest to gather as many Iron Warriors as they can, that's going to happen. They'll pool together all their siege engines and build even meaner ones. But up until that point they're often rivals if not outright enemies and each band gathers its own materiel. That's what I think that a CSM army list should reflect. Not every single thing that a primarch can command when they launch an all-out offensive but the more common reality for the warbands.

The point is to make a CSM list that isn't just spiky space marines and giving them capital-e Evil counterparts to everything that Imperial marines has is counterproductive to that.


loyalists get cawl tech. Traitors get heresy-era tech.

Thats how you differentiate between the two. The problem is that now CSM are penalized for taking HH stuff because for some reason they also have to pay for martial legacy. And now primaris are getting volkite again so thats even more stuff that should be for CSM only that primaris are taking.

CSM should be marine-centric. If you want to add cultists/militia then just make an actual Renegades and Heretics codex instead of legending it.

Chaos as a whole is fethed right now because GW doesnt seem to want to give support to anything else than primaris. Make R&H, make Dark mechanicus (heck, you just need to give the FW stuff 40k rules and you'd already have a big part of the army done), and make God-centric codexes that include the corresponding legion (DG+nurgle demons, etc)


yes, CSM should be marine centric, but the question is should Chaos, the faction AS A WHOLE, be marine centric, or should more effort be placed on building up the deamons the R&H, etc?


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 17:03:44


Post by: A.T.


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
loyalists get cawl tech. Traitors get heresy-era tech.
Traitors get daemon tech.

The trouble with 'heresy tech' is that most of it ties in with forgeworlds run of 'poorly written one-upsmanship tech' (and to a lesser extent their 'put all of the 40k stuff into the 30k game tech')


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 17:28:17


Post by: Hecaton


A.T. wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
loyalists get cawl tech. Traitors get heresy-era tech.
Traitors get daemon tech.


Also reaper autocannons etc. So heresy tech.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 17:33:04


Post by: Tyran


 Ordana wrote:
Word Bearer novels have consistently painted them as a mostly coherent legion after the Heresy.

Read any of Dark Apostle, Dark Creed or Dark Disciple and you will see mentions of the structure and chain of command that still exists beyond warbands.

Dark Creed end with the Word Bearers loosing because infighting, with Marduk leading the Word Bearer fleet into being destroyed by the Imperials.

They may be a mostly coherent Legion, but they are still rife with self-defeating infighting.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 17:44:50


Post by: VladimirHerzog


A.T. wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
loyalists get cawl tech. Traitors get heresy-era tech.
Traitors get daemon tech.

The trouble with 'heresy tech' is that most of it ties in with forgeworlds run of 'poorly written one-upsmanship tech' (and to a lesser extent their 'put all of the 40k stuff into the 30k game tech')


demon tech and heresy tech. The dark mechanicus has stolen STCs for many heresy era tech and can still produce them.



As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 17:44:57


Post by: A.T.


Hecaton wrote:
Also reaper autocannons etc. So heresy tech.
Pretty much the only example of unique heresy tech in a core chaos book that springs to mind, and not even unique anymore as Marines get them too (which I think is stupid, but marines get everything so...). All the other heresy stuff comes from forgeworld as a spin-off of their 30k project and has never been unique to the chaos factions.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 17:46:15


Post by: VladimirHerzog


xerxeskingofking wrote:


yes, CSM should be marine centric, but the question is should Chaos, the faction AS A WHOLE, be marine centric, or should more effort be placed on building up the deamons the R&H, etc?


Except chaos as a whole isnt marine centric? But yes, give us a real renegades and heretics codex so that we can better represent what the main forces of chaos look like,.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A.T. wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Also reaper autocannons etc. So heresy tech.
Pretty much the only example of unique heresy tech in a core chaos book that springs to mind, and not even unique anymore as Marines get them too (which I think is stupid, but marines get everything so...). All the other heresy stuff comes from forgeworld as a spin-off of their 30k project and has never been unique to the chaos factions.


were talking about the fluff here, not the models.

30k rules/models are what best represent the legions. just for my nightlords, adding terror troops and night raptors in the game would do wonders to better represent my legion but, sadly, i cant use them.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 17:53:09


Post by: Dysartes


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
loyalists get cawl tech. Traitors get heresy-era tech.

Thats how you differentiate between the two. The problem is that now CSM are penalized for taking HH stuff because for some reason they also have to pay for martial legacy. And now primaris are getting volkite again so thats even more stuff that should be for CSM only that primaris are taking.


Given we know Cawl was around during the Heresy, is it unreasonable to think that one of the bits he has squirreled away in a databank somewhere was the method to produce a weapon system from the Heresy?

And it's not like it is (currently) seeing widespread use - I count three datasheets with access to some form of Volkite weapon in the latest SM 'dex - Primaris Lieutenant (Bladeguard configuration), Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant and Relic Terminator Squad. NMNR stupidity means it is a weapon you can carry as a Sergeant and Lieutenant, but not as a Captain...


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 17:56:29


Post by: A.T.


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
were talking about the fluff here, not the models.
The written fluff is that chaos doesn't have much of the post heresy equipment (landspeeders, razorbacks, landraider crusaders, etc), not that they have some kind of exclusivity on the tech that both sides were using at the time.

Of course GW/forgeworld could have gone down that route but they opted not to. Whether that will change as they look to put out more marine releases to counterpoint the primaris marine releases who knows.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 17:57:11


Post by: Sunny Side Up


Chaos hinging on that dumb Horus Heresy background is dumb.

99.9999999999999999999999999999999% of all Chaos Space Marines don't have any background or lore linking them to the Heresy.

That stuff should just remain in the 30K game.





As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 18:09:58


Post by: Not Online!!!


Sunny Side Up wrote:
Chaos hinging on that dumb Horus Heresy background is dumb.

99.9999999999999999999999999999999% of all Chaos Space Marines don't have any background or lore linking them to the Heresy.

That stuff should just remain in the 30K game.





oh look it's sunny side "never picked up a csm dex or FW" up.


Tell me, how then do you think the baseline for all these chaos marines exist.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 19:19:57


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Sunny Side Up wrote:
Chaos hinging on that dumb Horus Heresy background is dumb.

99.9999999999999999999999999999999% of all Chaos Space Marines don't have any background or lore linking them to the Heresy.

That stuff should just remain in the 30K game.






thats a terrible take. and also wrong.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 20:30:49


Post by: Iracundus


The tech differentiation between CSM and Imperial Marines dates back to 2nd edition, which is when things like the Reaper autocannon and Havoc missile launchers made their first appearance. This was when GW started to differentiate the different factions more in terms of their weaponry, and the idea for the CSM was to make them look old and archaic compared to the Imperium.

The fluff background given was that some of the Imperium's later tech developments (derived from the Tech-Priests digesting STC fragments gained from the Great Crusade) like Assault Cannons and Cyclone Missile Launchers never got a chance to filter into widespread usage among the furthest flung Legions (which were mostly the ones that turned to Horus). Subsequent to the Heresy and retreating to the Eye, the Traitor Legions stopped using Land Speeders and the like over time due to lack of logistics capability, with the Imperium retaining access to vital parts and STC blueprints.

Back then, the CSM were also the only ones to use the Mk.1 Plasma weapons which had a chance of overheating and hurting the wielder. Back in 2nd edition, the Imperium used later versions that instead had to recharge a turn between shots but had no chance of overheating. This fluff-wise was explained as the CSM preferring raw power of the old weapons even if it entailed risk (and I think also because the newer weapons again had no chance to filter out to them), while the Imperium eventually decided that the loss rates among Marines from their own weapons was too high and went for a slower fire rate.

So in a nutshell, the background said the CSM used older tech that they had the parts and means to maintain and older tech that they still were using because newer tech never had a chance to get to them.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 22:49:52


Post by: Charistoph


Sunny Side Up wrote:
Chaos hinging on that dumb Horus Heresy background is dumb.

99.9999999999999999999999999999999% of all Chaos Space Marines don't have any background or lore linking them to the Heresy.

That stuff should just remain in the 30K game.

While some of the Legions do a certain amount of recruiting to maintain their numbers, your number is not necessarily true.

Of course, not all the Chaos Marines started out in a Legion (like Blackheart's Red Corsairs, the only non-Legion Chaos character produced by Citadel), so that may be where you are getting the idea, but that number doesn't quite match the Legions', except the Thousand Sons.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/22 22:58:32


Post by: Kroem


There has always been this tension in CSM fanbase between those who want the legions of the heresy and those who want an eclectic warband held together by a charasmatic Chaos Lord.
Whichever you prefer, thankful the CSM lore provides enough space for both interpretations.
However, I can definetely see the OPs point that the rules at the moment don't really do either justice!





As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/23 02:02:54


Post by: Gadzilla666


VladimirHerzog wrote:
Spoiler:
Rosebuddy wrote:
Obviously many of the warbands can form under the common banner of their legion. If Perturabo sends out his mightiest to gather as many Iron Warriors as they can, that's going to happen. They'll pool together all their siege engines and build even meaner ones. But up until that point they're often rivals if not outright enemies and each band gathers its own materiel. That's what I think that a CSM army list should reflect. Not every single thing that a primarch can command when they launch an all-out offensive but the more common reality for the warbands.

The point is to make a CSM list that isn't just spiky space marines and giving them capital-e Evil counterparts to everything that Imperial marines has is counterproductive to that.


loyalists get cawl tech. Traitors get heresy-era tech.

Thats how you differentiate between the two. The problem is that now CSM are penalized for taking HH stuff because for some reason they also have to pay for martial legacy. And now primaris are getting volkite again so thats even more stuff that should be for CSM only that primaris are taking.

CSM should be marine-centric. If you want to add cultists/militia then just make an actual Renegades and Heretics codex instead of legending it.

Chaos as a whole is fethed right now because GW doesnt seem to want to give support to anything else than primaris. Make R&H, make Dark mechanicus (heck, you just need to give the FW stuff 40k rules and you'd already have a big part of the army done), and make God-centric codexes that include the corresponding legion (DG+nurgle demons, etc)

The reason is simple: Gw slapped Martial Legacy on anything that had the "Relic" rule in the loyalist fw index, then they copy pasted the loyalist rules for those units for all of the "chaos" versions, right down to the weapons, which is why csm lost things like Soulburner Bombards and havoc launchers, instead gw just wrote "Hellforged" in front of the loyalist weapons options and called it a day. That's why the Land Raider Achilles doesn't have Martial Legacy, even though it was an Infernal Relic for csm in IA 13, and why Dreadclaws and the Karybdis don't have it, even though they're hh models. It was a lazy copy paste job that didn't take into account the lore or Forge World's previous rules.

A.T. wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
were talking about the fluff here, not the models.
The written fluff is that chaos doesn't have much of the post heresy equipment (landspeeders, razorbacks, landraider crusaders, etc), not that they have some kind of exclusivity on the tech that both sides were using at the time.

Of course GW/forgeworld could have gone down that route but they opted not to. Whether that will change as they look to put out more marine releases to counterpoint the primaris marine releases who knows.

Forge World did go down that route. That's why in 8th almost all Heresy era vehicles and weapons were locked behind the "Relic" rule for loyalists but the Legions could have all the Hellforged units they could pay for without restrictions. You can say fw rules were "poorly written" all you want, but they knew what they were doing when they wrote rules that forced loyalists to jump through hoops in order to use Heresy tech, but allowed csm to use it freely.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Apparently fw has read some Chaos codexes older than the 4th edition debacle and understood this:

Iracundus wrote:
The tech differentiation between CSM and Imperial Marines dates back to 2nd edition, which is when things like the Reaper autocannon and Havoc missile launchers made their first appearance. This was when GW started to differentiate the different factions more in terms of their weaponry, and the idea for the CSM was to make them look old and archaic compared to the Imperium.

The fluff background given was that some of the Imperium's later tech developments (derived from the Tech-Priests digesting STC fragments gained from the Great Crusade) like Assault Cannons and Cyclone Missile Launchers never got a chance to filter into widespread usage among the furthest flung Legions (which were mostly the ones that turned to Horus). Subsequent to the Heresy and retreating to the Eye, the Traitor Legions stopped using Land Speeders and the like over time due to lack of logistics capability, with the Imperium retaining access to vital parts and STC blueprints.

Back then, the CSM were also the only ones to use the Mk.1 Plasma weapons which had a chance of overheating and hurting the wielder. Back in 2nd edition, the Imperium used later versions that instead had to recharge a turn between shots but had no chance of overheating. This fluff-wise was explained as the CSM preferring raw power of the old weapons even if it entailed risk (and I think also because the newer weapons again had no chance to filter out to them), while the Imperium eventually decided that the loss rates among Marines from their own weapons was too high and went for a slower fire rate.

So in a nutshell, the background said the CSM used older tech that they had the parts and means to maintain and older tech that they still were using because newer tech never had a chance to get to them.

Good to see someone actually understands some of the history of how the Legions were set apart from loyalists. Exalted, good sir.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/23 03:17:32


Post by: Hecaton


 Kroem wrote:
There has always been this tension in CSM fanbase between those who want the legions of the heresy and those who want an eclectic warband held together by a charasmatic Chaos Lord.
Whichever you prefer, thankful the CSM lore provides enough space for both interpretations.
However, I can definetely see the OPs point that the rules at the moment don't really do either justice!





Very much not the case. People who play CSM generally want them to be legion-specific forces with a decent amount of 10k year veterans, whether they're a small warband or part of a larger legion, organizationally. It's GW (presumably codex writers who have a take on CSM like Cruddace on Nids) and players who don't play CSM who just want the faction to be less fun to play who push the "renegade warband" idea.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/23 07:35:53


Post by: Dudeface


Hecaton wrote:
 Kroem wrote:
There has always been this tension in CSM fanbase between those who want the legions of the heresy and those who want an eclectic warband held together by a charasmatic Chaos Lord.
Whichever you prefer, thankful the CSM lore provides enough space for both interpretations.
However, I can definetely see the OPs point that the rules at the moment don't really do either justice!





Very much not the case. People who play CSM generally want them to be legion-specific forces with a decent amount of 10k year veterans, whether they're a small warband or part of a larger legion, organizationally. It's GW (presumably codex writers who have a take on CSM like Cruddace on Nids) and players who don't play CSM who just want the faction to be less fun to play who push the "renegade warband" idea.


There are plenty of people who play a renegade war band of one form or another, anyone playing a custom force or any of the renegade forces in vigilus etc.

The fact that fluff wise the second largest cohesive force of chaos marines are made up of renegade marines primarily should give them fair representation.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/23 09:04:28


Post by: Not Online!!!


Dudeface wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
 Kroem wrote:
There has always been this tension in CSM fanbase between those who want the legions of the heresy and those who want an eclectic warband held together by a charasmatic Chaos Lord.
Whichever you prefer, thankful the CSM lore provides enough space for both interpretations.
However, I can definetely see the OPs point that the rules at the moment don't really do either justice!





Very much not the case. People who play CSM generally want them to be legion-specific forces with a decent amount of 10k year veterans, whether they're a small warband or part of a larger legion, organizationally. It's GW (presumably codex writers who have a take on CSM like Cruddace on Nids) and players who don't play CSM who just want the faction to be less fun to play who push the "renegade warband" idea.


There are plenty of people who play a renegade war band of one form or another, anyone playing a custom force or any of the renegade forces in vigilus etc.

The fact that fluff wise the second largest cohesive force of chaos marines are made up of renegade marines primarily should give them fair representation.


IT doesn't matter frankly, because as it is right now the system supports neither satisfiyingly nor competently.Not to mention that when the chaos posterboy faction isn't even propperly able to represent itself an expansion into R&H from gw would be an unmigitated desaster, as allready proven.

the best case imo for CSM would be:

You get the core legions, with unique units unlimeted access to heresy tech. Basically premade and specific in nature, expanded roster and abilites.

You get build a trait, which get a mult tiered deciscion system for warbands, f.e.

- Chose if legionaires or Renegades make up the warband. (stratagem fighting style heresy or stolen equipment) etc. (options for a part of a trait, picking specific legions as core or renegade sources should give various parts.)

- mono god alignement or multi god (unlocking cult marines or not) Focussing on a god should give advantages and disadvantages.

- Bunch of traits for specialisation.


Would also fit GW's recent tendency to actually make multitiered traits and abilities.



As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/23 09:22:42


Post by: Hecaton


Dudeface wrote:

There are plenty of people who play a renegade war band of one form or another, anyone playing a custom force or any of the renegade forces in vigilus etc.

The fact that fluff wise the second largest cohesive force of chaos marines are made up of renegade marines primarily should give them fair representation.


I wouldn't really describe them as "plenty" compared to the people who play legions.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/23 09:35:46


Post by: Dudeface


Hecaton wrote:
Dudeface wrote:

There are plenty of people who play a renegade war band of one form or another, anyone playing a custom force or any of the renegade forces in vigilus etc.

The fact that fluff wise the second largest cohesive force of chaos marines are made up of renegade marines primarily should give them fair representation.


I wouldn't really describe them as "plenty" compared to the people who play legions.


Well since plenty isn't a finite term it's irrelevant, they exist. The other side of the coin being people go make up a custom force with personalised colour scheme and their options are stacked in favour of picking a legions rules to represent them. There is no diy chaos faction nor successors etc. to properly allow the creativity

So yes, when 9/10 of the rules are for legions, it's no shock most of the forces deployed use legion rules, regardless of the players personal force fluff.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/23 15:02:29


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Not Online!!! wrote:


IT doesn't matter frankly, because as it is right now the system supports neither satisfiyingly nor competently.Not to mention that when the chaos posterboy faction isn't even propperly able to represent itself an expansion into R&H from gw would be an unmigitated desaster, as allready proven.

the best case imo for CSM would be:

You get the core legions, with unique units unlimeted access to heresy tech. Basically premade and specific in nature, expanded roster and abilites.

You get build a trait, which get a mult tiered deciscion system for warbands, f.e.

- Chose if legionaires or Renegades make up the warband. (stratagem fighting style heresy or stolen equipment) etc. (options for a part of a trait, picking specific legions as core or renegade sources should give various parts.)

- mono god alignement or multi god (unlocking cult marines or not) Focussing on a god should give advantages and disadvantages.

- Bunch of traits for specialisation.


Would also fit GW's recent tendency to actually make multitiered traits and abilities.



100% on board with this. If anything, i feel like custom traits wouldve been more appropriate to CSM than loyalists honestly. And yes, the main "problem" with the codex is that people keep pulling for legionnaires on one side and renegades on the other while in reality, this codex encompasses both.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/23 17:37:52


Post by: Canadian 5th


I'd personally love to see a system that supports all of what Chaos should be, perhaps something like:

Codex: Daemons Undivided
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Nurgle
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Khorne
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Tzneetch
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Slaanesh

Codex: Chaos Space Marines
-Codex CSM Supplement: Legions
-Codex CSM Supplement: Renegades

Codex: Dark Mechanicus

Codex: Heretics and Rabble

Freshly corrupted Imperial Guard units would come out of the loyalist codex with an appropriate set of traits and keywords. Select forces could possibly ally without penalty but given that even loyalists can't do that I'm not sure Chaos needs that buff.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/23 17:41:02


Post by: Dudeface


 Canadian 5th wrote:
I'd personally love to see a system that supports all of what Chaos should be, perhaps something like:

Codex: Daemons Undivided
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Nurgle
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Khorne
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Tzneetch
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Slaanesh

Codex: Chaos Space Marines
-Codex CSM Supplement: Legions
-Codex CSM Supplement: Renegades

Codex: Dark Mechanicus

Codex: Heretics and Rabble

Freshly corrupted Imperial Guard units would come out of the loyalist codex with an appropriate set of traits and keywords. Select forces could possibly ally without penalty but given that even loyalists can't do that I'm not sure Chaos needs that buff.


I like this although the undivided daemons is a whopping 3 entries + belakor. I would like to see some more undivided daemons ala the ruinstorm ones.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/23 18:05:22


Post by: Canadian 5th


Dudeface wrote:
 Canadian 5th wrote:
I'd personally love to see a system that supports all of what Chaos should be, perhaps something like:

Codex: Daemons Undivided
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Nurgle
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Khorne
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Tzneetch
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Slaanesh

Codex: Chaos Space Marines
-Codex CSM Supplement: Legions
-Codex CSM Supplement: Renegades

Codex: Dark Mechanicus

Codex: Heretics and Rabble

Freshly corrupted Imperial Guard units would come out of the loyalist codex with an appropriate set of traits and keywords. Select forces could possibly ally without penalty but given that even loyalists can't do that I'm not sure Chaos needs that buff.


I like this although the undivided daemons is a whopping 3 entries + belakor. I would like to see some more undivided daemons ala the ruinstorm ones.

Yeah, you'd need to make a lot of new rules and models to make some of these work. Others could use a lot of existing product with an appropriate upgrade sprue or two.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/23 19:39:24


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 Canadian 5th wrote:
I'd personally love to see a system that supports all of what Chaos should be, perhaps something like:

Codex: Daemons Undivided
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Nurgle
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Khorne
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Tzneetch
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Slaanesh

Codex: Chaos Space Marines
-Codex CSM Supplement: Legions
-Codex CSM Supplement: Renegades

Codex: Dark Mechanicus

Codex: Heretics and Rabble

Freshly corrupted Imperial Guard units would come out of the loyalist codex with an appropriate set of traits and keywords. Select forces could possibly ally without penalty but given that even loyalists can't do that I'm not sure Chaos needs that buff.


yeah, that would work and i'd love for legions and gods to get as much love as the chapters got with their supplements
Khorne and Tzeentch are more different than Ultramarines and Blood Angels.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/24 04:37:06


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Or just do Daemons as two books:

The Lost and the Damned
Slaves to Darkness




As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/24 05:07:32


Post by: BrianDavion


regarding CSMs, I think part of the problem is adopting an eaither or mentality to warbands and legions. yes the Legions exist, but most CSM forces, even among the legions are shattered warbands. they MAY have a core identity and even come together in rare cases, but they also have their own identity apart from it.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/793076.page

I proposed what is IMHO the best way to reflect this, by making the legion tactic essentially HALF the equation, thus leading to legion war bands with some customization.

and IMHO thats what GW needs to do, reflect that the legions are there and respect this, but also note that the legions are indeed splintered and have rules to reflect this.

beyond that, CSMs also need some new units, as right now they're basicly 3rd or 4th edition space marine stuff... and some deamon engines. I think that GW needs to really SHOW how the CSMs have developed since the heresy. I'm not saying "just give them old HH stuff" but rather, take some of the heresy era designs, and extrapolate what 10,000 years in the eye of terror, being tinkered on by the dark mechanium has done to it. in short CSM should have reckongizable elements, but it shouldn't just be a buncha of plastic horus heresy kits with spikes.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/24 06:01:25


Post by: techsoldaten


 Canadian 5th wrote:
I'd personally love to see a system that supports all of what Chaos should be, perhaps something like:

Codex: Daemons Undivided
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Nurgle
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Khorne
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Tzneetch
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Slaanesh

Codex: Chaos Space Marines
-Codex CSM Supplement: Legions
-Codex CSM Supplement: Renegades

Codex: Dark Mechanicus

Codex: Heretics and Rabble

Freshly corrupted Imperial Guard units would come out of the loyalist codex with an appropriate set of traits and keywords. Select forces could possibly ally without penalty but given that even loyalists can't do that I'm not sure Chaos needs that buff.

Instead what we have is:

Codex: Chaos Space Marines
Codex: Thousand Sons
Codex: Death Guard
Codex: Chaos Daemons
Codex: Renegade Knights

... and a fond memory of what was R&H in IA 13.

I agree with other posters that the main constraint is the need for more models to support an expanded set of Codexes.

But there's this other question that comes to mind: when has GW ever gotten Khorne right? Last thing I want is another army sitting on a shelf.

Aside from the original World Eaters Codex from White Dwarf, the original CDaemons where half the army deep struck, and 5th edition Berzerkers (who could get a lot of work done jumping out of Rhinos,) I'm having a hard time remembering when there was a good reason to run a Khorne Army. Same goes for Slaanesh, Noise Marines have been overcosted and impotent in most editions (salvo rules ruined them in 6th.)

The real reason we don't get coherent Codex options has been the Chaos tax. Paying more for units that die just as easily as their loyalist counterparts cripples mid-range assault armies, and I think GW knows not many players will choose to invest in them. When you consider a single Berzerker model has typically cost about 20% more than a Space Marine (or 30% for Noise Marines,) the joint disincentives for manufacturer and consumer become more obvious.

I'm optimistic the 9th edition Codex will bring more parity between the factions and maybe open up some doors for expanding the line. But rumors about Fulgrim and Angron have been circulating since 2017 and it doesn't feel like we're quite there. Something else needs to change before they can expand the line for Chaos.

Going back to the original topic, I played a Daemon Primarch army last edition that had 5 Marines total and one of them was Ahriman. Power builds consisting of elite HQs are not as much of an option in 9th, but I could see some successful lists that have no CSMs, Havocs, Raptors, etc becoming a thing.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/24 06:11:39


Post by: warmaster21


I would definately like to see more Unaligned warp entities not neccesarily demons but ill take more unaligned demons.

+1 to pushing out the rest of the legion books
+1 to R&H, traitor guard and all that.

-100 to me having to buy 7+ books if everything turns into suppliments


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/24 11:36:52


Post by: A.T.


 techsoldaten wrote:
Same goes for Slaanesh, Noise Marines have been overcosted and impotent in most editions (salvo rules ruined them in 6th.)
Slaanesh have had some of the best toys in multiple editions - 3e had sirens throwing deepstrike assault daemonettes, 4e had the lash prince, AP3 flamers and some reasonable milage out of I5 though into 5th and their daemons could do good work. I think most of 6-7th got lost in the hunt for invisible deathstars and other cheese - S8 AP3 ignores cover blasts are good but a bit thin for a faction identity.
8e though everyone was playing slaanesh for a while - I had oblits, havoks, and a juiced up daemon prince in my default list. No noise marines but I think that was just early 8th and its emphasis on CP farming.

Thinking back it was always piecemeal, they'd always have something good but you'd not often take a whole army of them if you were playing for power rather than for fluff.


As a faction, Chaos needs to be less Marine-centric. @ 2020/11/24 14:29:41


Post by: Not Online!!!


A.T. wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Same goes for Slaanesh, Noise Marines have been overcosted and impotent in most editions (salvo rules ruined them in 6th.)
Slaanesh have had some of the best toys in multiple editions - 3e had sirens throwing deepstrike assault daemonettes, 4e had the lash prince, AP3 flamers and some reasonable milage out of I5 though into 5th and their daemons could do good work. I think most of 6-7th got lost in the hunt for invisible deathstars and other cheese - S8 AP3 ignores cover blasts are good but a bit thin for a faction identity.
8e though everyone was playing slaanesh for a while - I had oblits, havoks, and a juiced up daemon prince in my default list. No noise marines but I think that was just early 8th and its emphasis on CP farming.

Thinking back it was always piecemeal, they'd always have something good but you'd not often take a whole army of them if you were playing for power rather than for fluff.


hence why internal soup was basically how CSM were played permanently on a competitivish level.