As we know, with Warhammer, there is no canon.

Gav Thorpe said with Warhammer and Warhammer 40k, the notion of canon is a fallacy. Warhammer and Warhammer 40k exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong.

ADB said there is no canon. There are several hundred creators all adding to the melting pot of the IP.

So what's your personal headcanon?

I have 2.

First, that the Heresy was planned. There were things that the Emperor didn't foresee, like Cegorach swapping Fulgrim and the Khan, Magnus did nothing wrong, etc. but overall it was planned.

However, it was planned as a response to the interference of the Chaos gods scattering the primarchs. Chaos influence was on the primarchs now, and something had to be done.

The primarchs had roles when the Imperium was complete. As governors, in a loose sense. But they wouldn't be there forever. At the end of the day, this was the Imperium of Man, not the Imperium of demi-gods. Eventually they would be removed, when the galaxy was at peace. When all Xenos were purged and Chaos was drowned out. Even the Emperor saw himself as a temporary tool, one that humanity eventually would no longer need.

With the Heresy, half of the traitor legions and primarchs would be culled. The Emperor's goals would take longer to come to be, but they would still eventually come. He would still have loyalist primarchs, like the Lion and Guilliman, he would have their legions, and they could still wage war against the threats in the galaxy.

The second is that the Emperor obtained god powers on Molech rivaling that of the Chaos gods. He ascended from being just The New Man to something even greater than that. But he needed that power in order to start the Great Crusade. To create the primarchs and their legions.

In 40k, the concept of Abrahamic definitions of what a god is doesn't exist. We know with the infamous quote from Lorgar what even a primarch sees to be a god. We know Gork and Mork and the Chaos gods don't fall under the Abrahamic definition, and yet they are still viewed as gods. We have that established.

However, the Emperor couldn't tell people that he had become a god. It went against his entire goal of creating an atheist society with the Imperial Truth. To starve out the Chaos gods, to quell the idea of gods completely from the Imperium. He needed the power only, not the title that came with it. But without that power, he couldn't create the primarchs, he couldn't start the Great Crusade. It was a burden that he had to bare.

He had become the very thing he sought to destroy, but it was necessary. A means to an end.

Yes, i have a belief there are a small number of humans who know the truth, the whole truth, and secretly keep the imperium running and mankind alive.

They are so secret even the inquisition knows nothing of them even to many are inquisitors.

They basically know the imperium is based on lies, the emperor is not a god and never wanted to be, that the imperial creed is base on the works of lorgar, they know the truth of the chaos gods, ad infinitum.

Think of them maybe a little like "men in black".

I imagine they have some secret world where they raise populations in full knowledge of the truth, an psykers are educated from childhood to resist chaos influence, the people are educated in technology and science, the truth about the dark age of technology and what happened to it, the mistakes the emperor made, etc.

I have lots! I guess here are my main ones.
1. The Great Crusade is still ongoing, though with the Emperor on the Golden Throne as usual. This leaves large sections of the galaxy not under Imperial control and allows for smaller human civilisations and factions with different Sci Fi aesthetics.
2. Primarchs were just a step above a normal chapter master. Space Marines are monsters, not saviours, being hyper aggressive murdermachines made from the scum of the galaxy.
3. Orks tech works because Mekboyz are smart. The gestalt psychic stuff is just an explanation the Mechanicum use because they cannot understand Ork tech.
4. Necrons are a collection of AI races that infect other AI. The necron warriors and other humanoid necrons are various human androids that have been corrupted by this, essentially the Men of Iron of myth, and this is why AI is taboo in many human cultures (though not all, some have not been exposed to the necron threat). The more insectoid necron constructs are from the ancient originator culture of the Necrons. All that stuff with the Ctaan and whatever is not part of the setting.
5. Most eldar are Drukhari. If you meet an Eldar they are massively more likely to be Drukhari than any other sort, though the others do exist. Drukhari are toned down from their OTT depictions and are a bit more like Eldar Corsairs, decadent pirates who enjoy blood sports more than existentially compelled torture addicts. Commoragh probably still exists but you will encounter Drukhari moving around the galaxy independent of Commoragh fairly often.
6. Demiurg exist, they are from high gravity planets and are a bit like deep sea fish in that they are evolved to live at high pressures. They wear fully enclosing suits of armour when not in their home tunnels. I use Forge Fathers from Mantic with enclosed helms to represent them.
7. Tau are pretty much unchanged, but the evil elements introduced after their original release are toned down or restricted to certain factions in their collective rather than being the overarching plan of the Ethereals.
8. Minor Xenos are much more prevalent and mixing between Xenos and humans is more common in non-imperial space.
9. Chaos is a bit toned down from the modern interpretation. It is less unambiguously evil and has positive aspects etc. It is also not as huge a threat as implied, it is a bit harder to cause warpspace-realspace overlaps and Chaos is mostly operating at the margins and attacking the structures of the Imperium rather than causing huge daemonic invasions all the time. Huge daemonic invasions can still happen but they are very rare and usually require some sort of additional factor to allow them such as proximity to a stable warpstorm like the Eye of Terror or the Maelstrom.

I have made these changes to make the game fit more with what I want from a setting. I want to be able to run wargames with factions I like, and introduce new factions if I am inspired to do so, and this leaves "room" for that in my view. I also want a variety of different human civilisations to explore. I want a setting you could easily play a sandbox RPG in, and the standard 40K setting is too nailed down for that, the Imperium too restrictive. I actually see the Imperium as the "big bad" of the setting, slowly conquering the free parts of the galaxy and destroying them, turning Chaos sour in the areas they control due to the tremendous unhappiness they create.

The emperor is MALAL! It’s obvious if you look closely enough.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/63141.page#:~:text=Malal%20is%20the%20renegade%205th%20Chaos%20God%20in,this%20was%20a%20self-imposed%20exile%20is%20not%20clear.

Read the first paragraph. Who has caused more destruction than the emperor and the destruction inflicted on the galaxy will lead to humanity’s destruction. He is the lost chaos god that those who fear chaos have turned to destroy chaos.

Also half whit and half black skulls everywhere!

People in the Imperium are a lot more tech-savvy than their dogmas about machines seem to suggest. Sure, the Adeptus Mechanicus peddle nonsense about "machine spirits", but even they don't really believe it, and are only trying to protect their dominance in tech production and maintenance. By and large, apart from feral-worlders, most citizens of the Imperium understand that there is nothing mystical or esoteric about technology, and are often quite adept at maintaining and repairing it themselves.

Accusations of tech-heresy are not that common. They mostly happen when the Mechanicus' power is threatened in a very conspicuous/public way and the Mechanicus want to remind everyone who's boss. Even the most hard-line members of the Adeptus Mechanicus are well aware that there are not nearly enough tech-priests to maintain all the technology required to keep the Imperium running, so if some farmers on an agri-world repair their own farming vehicles themselves, they'll let it slide (as long as those farmers aren't foolish enough to go around training dozens of repairmen or advertising their services to third parties).

.

My personal Headcanon is that someone goes back in time, buys 51% of GW stock and fires whoever thought of the idea of the Horus Heresy books and The Gathering Storm/Turning 40k into a storyline instead of a setting.

The Trustworthy One did nothing wrong and I agree with everything he says.

The Emperor is not 40K's Sigmar, but 40K's Archaon. "He is the Master of Mankind by the will of the Gods" says the 40K intro spiel, and I take that literally. He is exactly where the Chaos Gods always wanted him to be. And as long as he's stuck there on the Golden Throne, the Imperium serves as a galaxy-spanning death-cult grinding human souls into the perfect food for the Chaos Gods: a psychic stew of hatred, rage, false hope, corruption, fear, despair and desperate yearning.

Daemons call Him 'Anathema' and people think that means He is the antithesis of Chaos. But the original meaning of the term 'anathema' was 'dedicated to the gods'. It later took on the connotation of 'untouchable' (because mortals weren't allowed to touch something dedicated to the gods), and hence 'divinely cursed'. But I think daemons are using the term in its original sense. 'Anathema' = 'Everchosen' in the Warhammer sense.

That's a cool interpretation!

mrFickle wrote:
The emperor is MALAL! It’s obvious if you look closely enough.

Nah, the Emperor is the Horned Rat. 12 minions, he's the absentee 13th member of the council, ruling over a civilization of hypocritical, rapacious, exploitative, deceitful creatures. The Imperium is emblematic of all the sins of civilized humanity, just like the Skaven are.

My main piece of headcanon is that the Emperor is an explicitly villainous figure. In mythology, there's a recurring theme of kings who try to hold on past their time being something cosmically wrong. Accepting that you will have a time in power and then a time when that power is past is part of the natural order. Osiris is an example of a mythological character who works in tune with this understanding, moving to rule the underworld while his son rules the cosmos. The Greek Cronus and Russian Koshchei are examples of characters which try to fight against this cycle and end up making everyone suffer for it. The Emperor has more in common with Cronus and Koshchei than Osiris - he doesn't view his role as a father to be to raise his sons, but rather his sons as tools to be expended and used for his own benefit. He expected his sons to sacrifice their lives for him in a perversion of the paternal instinct. So I think it makes more sense to view the Emperor as a corrupt, evil figure himself, and the current state of the Imperium as a sort of consequence of his original sin.

The Old Ones, actually, in the few sources we have from earlier editions that talk about them, thought this way, despite their long lifespans. Ironically, the Necrons missed the plot on that one, and that's what got them into their situation.

Other headcanon elements - Ork technology actually has some high points, the AdMech is just crazy. Orks are amazing engineers even if they are gakky scientists. The gestalt psychic field mainly is what powers Weirdboyz and protects Orks from demonic gak.

SoB "miracles" are psychic phenomena caused by their connection to the Horned Rat-er, Emperor of Mankind.

My headcannon (probably inspired from playing Epic often in my youth) is that the whole "SM Chapters are 1000 men strong" is just imperial propaganda. All Chapters are much, much more numerous than that, and all the stories about the recruitement rates, the supposed near-invincibility of Marines... are Imperial propaganda designed to keep Marines an inspiration to lower-end Imperial troops such as IG (and also to keep would-be rebels in their place).

There are no Primaris marines in my headcanon. Belisarius Cawl has designed some new vehicles and a new mark of dreadnought armour called "Mk X Gravis Armour" but firstborn marines are wearing them to battle. Mk X Gravis is starting to replace traditional terminator armour, since the knowledge required to build new suits is becoming a lost art, and parts are getting unobtanium to find and impossible to remake. Gravis armour however utilizes components and tech which is easier to come by for current AdMech.

AdMech functions a bit like scientology; a secret society of layers within layers. Superstition and ritual is dominant on the lower levels of the organization, Hard Science and research dominates the highest levels, most AdMech have a position somewhere between those two extremes as dictated by their status in the organization. Higher level priests are not allowed to reveal their knowledge to lower level members of the AdMech, a violation of this code results in excommunicae traitoris designation.

In most other respects, my headcanon aligns pretty much with the Rogue Trader lore, exception being that all of the 9th ed factions exist. The Imperium Of Man doesn't have a total hold on the human civilization, many systems have been cut off due to warp storms and war campaings thinning out IoM rule on the systems, and rebels and independent societies exist alongside the Imps. Therefore, many "Imperials vs Imperials" battles on the tabletop actually involve non-imperial forces most of the time. An old imperial planet turned into indepence doesn't just throw all that Astra Militarum gear away once Lex Imperialis ceases to matter on their world... Easy enough to buy ammo and spare parts from Rogue Traders

CorwinB wrote:
My headcannon (probably inspired from playing Epic often in my youth) is that the whole "SM Chapters are 1000 men strong" is just imperial propaganda. All Chapters are much, much more numerous than that, and all the stories about the recruitement rates, the supposed near-invincibility of Marines... are Imperial propaganda designed to keep Marines an inspiration to lower-end Imperial troops such as IG (and also to keep would-be rebels in their place).

Oh yes, absolutely. The "less than one Space Marine per world of the Imperium" thing is utter nonsense. If there were so few of them, they would be stretched far too thin to have much of an impact on the wars of the 41st millennium, even if each and every one of them were a one-man army.


Another of my headcanons (might be canon, actually, but not spoken about much) is that levels of freedom vary widely across the Imperium, depending on the planetary governor. While the fluff often focuses on dystopian hellscapes, there are many worlds where people enjoy free speech, human rights and good material conditions. The administration on Terra is too busy to micromanage whether the governor of some far-flung planet appropriately stamps down on dissent and heresy. They only get involved when the planet is genuinely at risk of falling under the sway of Chaos worshippers, Xenos sympathizers or anti-Imperium separatists.

.

Might actually be more or less canon:

The Tau Empire is a pheronome based brainwashing cult. Normal Tau are literally biologically incapable of disobeying Ethereals in their presence. The Ethereals were created artifically by an outside-party (read: Eldar). which also explains how they suddenly appeared out of nowhere, and instructed with the task of creating an inter-stellar empire (so basically, they are also brainwashed unwitting drones) because some Farseer somewhere thought they'll make a good pawn in the distant future. Maybe the Eldar wanted to take over the Tau Empire as the heartland of their own new Empire - note how it's located as far away from the Eye of Terror as possible.
Only the Tau in the Farsight Enclaves are free of this ordeal.

In earlier editions, I also liked to think that Farsight's dark secret was originally devised as him being a secret Khorne worshipper (Chaos artifact blade, red armor, close-combat, a honor guard of "eight" etc) but this doesn't fit his newer lore at all.

The Old Ones were not entirely destroyed and they created the Tyranids as a galactic reset switch when they saw the galaxy was going to hell in a hand cart. By cleansing the galaxy of all life they would destroy the chaos gods and quieten the warp, leaving a sterile galaxy the Old Ones could then repopulate with life to their own design (and having learned the lessons of the past do a much better job of it). This also explains why Tyranids attack Necrons since the Old Ones would not want to destroy all life and leave their ancient enemies to inherit the galaxy in their place.

 Esmer wrote:
Might actually be more or less canon:

The Ethereals were created artifically by an outside-party (read: Eldar). which also explains how they suddenly appeared out of nowhere, and instructed with the task of creating an inter-stellar empire

This is actually the lore I created for my own Eldar Craftworld. They are basically trying to implement the plan the Cabal envisaged and recognise that to save the galaxy from Chaos humanity must be destroyed as it is the Chaos power's main fuel source. But to simply cause the collapse and destruction of the Imperium would create a power vacuum other hostile races would fill. Enter the Tau - a non-xenophobic race with little presence in the warp programmed to create a unified and ordered galactic empire to replace the Imperium. The Eldar may or may not have the ability to influence the Tau or "kill off" the ethereals. Most likely they just see the Tau greater good as inherently useful for their purposes. My Eldar have been moving away from this plan of late - with the coming of the great rift it is becoming increasingly apparently the galaxy is doomed and there simply isn't time to collapse the Imperium and replace it with a more suitable power. If the final battle cannot be prevented then it must be won - so my Eldar are putting some of their apples in the Ynarri basket as well.

I also like that my Eldar's plan is just a far less ambitious (and thus tragically doomed to be insufficient) version of my headcannon Old One's plan for the Tyranids.

Or maybe the Emperor is this guy...

Duskweaver wrote:The Emperor is not 40K's Sigmar, but 40K's Archaon. "He is the Master of Mankind by the will of the Gods" says the 40K intro spiel, and I take that literally. He is exactly where the Chaos Gods always wanted him to be. And as long as he's stuck there on the Golden Throne, the Imperium serves as a galaxy-spanning death-cult grinding human souls into the perfect food for the Chaos Gods: a psychic stew of hatred, rage, false hope, corruption, fear, despair and desperate yearning.

Daemons call Him 'Anathema' and people think that means He is the antithesis of Chaos. But the original meaning of the term 'anathema' was 'dedicated to the gods'. It later took on the connotation of 'untouchable' (because mortals weren't allowed to touch something dedicated to the gods), and hence 'divinely cursed'. But I think daemons are using the term in its original sense. 'Anathema' = 'Everchosen' in the Warhammer sense.

That...makes too much sense. Wow, never thought of that.

CorwinB wrote:My headcannon (probably inspired from playing Epic often in my youth) is that the whole "SM Chapters are 1000 men strong" is just imperial propaganda. All Chapters are much, much more numerous than that, and all the stories about the recruitement rates, the supposed near-invincibility of Marines... are Imperial propaganda designed to keep Marines an inspiration to lower-end Imperial troops such as IG (and also to keep would-be rebels in their place).

Yeah, that's pretty much my head canon too. Even if the codex says 1000 Marines, my head canon is that most chapters go "well, the codex doesn't include command staff, Techmarines, or vehicle support in those numbers. And, with us sending forces out so much, we should keep more on hand, just in case some don't come back."

All of the Space Marine troop numbers above squad size are ×10. A company is 1000 marines, with 10 lieutenants. A chapter is 10,000 marines. The legions were 100,000. Makes the spread and the actions of the chapters make more sense.

Oh jeez. I have a bunch. Um. A few off the top of my head:

* Ynnead will eventually slit Slaanesh's belly, restoring the eldar pantheon and adding a tamer, eldar-based version of Slaanesh to the pantheon. Not destroying Slaanesh, but rather cutting out the eldar-based core at the center. This is a metaphor for the eldar species losing sight of everything but trickery and war to their bought with toxic excess, then becoming whole again once they learn not to rid themselves of their addictive personalities but to accept and cope with them.

* Drazhar's origin is this: Arhra went to the dark side and basically lost himself to Khorne, the natural enemy of Slaanesh. This is consistent with the brutal, "let the hate flow through you," exarch powers the incubi have exhibited in the past. When he realized what he'd become, he excised most of his own soul to become "free." All that's left is a mute intelligence completely obsessed with martial perfection. Which is why Drazhar doesn't talk.

*Ethereals are, in fact, subtle psychics rather than pheromone users. Based on the way Ethereals seem to be able to exert their calming influence over large crowds (too large from some mind control stank to have spread to everyone's sniffers) even when people aren't paying attention to them. (See: the train scene from Empire of Lies.) This psychic effect is comparable to an exarch power or red paint on an ork trukk. It's the sort of thing that is probably psychic in nature but isn't overtly psychic in a way that lets, for instance, a Culexus shut them down.

* Alpharius and Omegon conspired to "kill" Omegon so that he could further their schemes from the shadows and to brainwash Alpharius into thinking that they'd genuinely sided with Horus so that he wouldn't give away the game while in the presence of his brothers or potent psykers.Which is why one of them seemed to die in such a pathetic and out of character way at the hands of Rogal Dorn.

* Khorne isn't the god of rage and martial prowess. He's the god of toxic, closeted self-loathing. This is why he won't mark sorcerers despite having an army of daemons that are summoned into reality by blood magic defy physics with magical weapons on the regular. Just admit you're into magic, Khorne. It's okay. You don't have to throw fireballs if you don't want to, but just accept that the Biomancy discipline would have been your jam back in 7th if you'd been more open-minded.

* Lady Malys is, in fact, the bearer of Cegorach's heart and is probably basically his herald in a similar fashion to Yvraine being Ynnead's herald.

* At some point, Yvraine was supposed to be Malys, which is why they're connected in fluff and why Yvraine is modeled with a fan. The visarch was maybe meant to be Yriel at some point, but then they opted for someone "mysterious" instead. This is why the visarch's last-minute helmet looks kind of silly and why Yriel's death/ressurrection was kind of disconnected and rushed in Fall of Biel-Tan.

Orks aren't as dumb as they are made out to be. Their speech only sounds moronic when the few that know some gothic speak that language to humans. In general, an average ork is less intelligent than an average human, but with a similar bell curve so there are a good proportion of very intelligent orks too. However, they all love fighting, generally prefer simple solutions to problems and have less regard for their own lives than humans

Basically they are smarter than their fluff depicts but aren't just green humans.

I also agree with Da Boss, the gestalt psychic-tech thing is a human theory and isn't true

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
Orks aren't as dumb as they are made out to be. Their speech only sounds moronic when the few that know some gothic speak that language to humans. In general, an average ork is less intelligent than an average human, but with a similar bell curve so there are a good proportion of very intelligent orks too. However, they all love fighting, generally prefer simple solutions to problems and have less regard for their own lives than humans

Basically they are smarter than their fluff depicts but aren't just green humans.

I also agree with Da Boss, the gestalt psychic-tech thing is a human theory and isn't true

Hm, from the fluff that bit about intelligence is much what it seems like to me. Yeah the average ork is pretty dim, but they aren't stupid and a lot of the things we associate with intelligence are simply not behaviors they would engage in anyways.

Duskweaver wrote:The Emperor is not 40K's Sigmar,....

For a while it was rumoured that Sigmar was a Primarch! As there was crossover between 40k and WHFB setting (Chaos Warriors with bolt guns etc.) and Sigmar 'arriving heralded by a comet etc.

Da Boss wrote:I have lots! I guess here are my main ones.
2. Primarchs were just a step above a normal chapter master. Space Marines are monsters, not saviours, being hyper aggressive murdermachines made from the scum of the galaxy.
6. Demiurg exist, they are from high gravity planets and are a bit like deep sea fish in that they are evolved to live at high pressures. They wear fully enclosing suits of armour when not in their home tunnels. I use Forge Fathers from Mantic with enclosed helms to represent them.
7. Tau are pretty much unchanged, but the evil elements introduced after their original release are toned down or restricted to certain factions in their collective rather than being the overarching plan of the Ethereals.
8. Minor Xenos are much more prevalent and mixing between Xenos and humans is more common in non-imperial space.
9. Chaos is a bit toned down from the modern interpretation. It is less unambiguously evil and has positive aspects etc. It is also not as huge a threat as implied, it is a bit harder to cause warpspace-realspace overlaps and Chaos is mostly operating at the margins and attacking the structures of the Imperium rather than causing huge daemonic invasions all the time. Huge daemonic invasions can still happen but they are very rare and usually require some sort of additional factor to allow them such as proximity to a stable warpstorm like the Eye of Terror or the Maelstrom.

I really like this list!

Really a lot of things you talk about here are the older incarnation of the game universe. For example no. 2, Primarchs did used to be an almost 'commander' level. Marines were 'chemically hardened' before the WH40k Compilation book, representing more like the Sardakur from Dune - trained killers who were given armour and weapons and unleashed on enemies. The 'Noble Knight' and defender of mankind thing came before 2nd edition and has gradually developed from there. I personally think there should be room for both the 'Noble' and also ruthless, trained killers (which is why the Great Crusade is such a great setting! As you have room for that kind of thing, hopefully untouched by Cawl and other modern, drastic changes to the setting).
For number 9 I totally agree. The modern 40k description of demons is so limited compared it's influencing material, which was the Michael Moorcock books, with its pantheon of Gods playing and fighting between each other and mankind caught in the middle (which is really taken from Greek classical literature). It's a lot more fun and varied I think, with Chaos being this 'Pandora's Box' of infinite possibility that opens your mind to the universe vs. the straight-line 'order' of the Imperium. You really want to open that box but it will destroy your mind and change you if you do it! I can see that being something people would want to do. Who the hell would want to be given a horrible disease and turned into a rotten pile of puss, have to wear red leather and collect skulls or unwittingly suddenly turned into a haemaphrodite with claw hands?! (actually don't answer that question )

I'm sure there is a paper to be written on how a more modern Judeo-Christian viewpoint has altered the outlook of 'Daemons' within the 40k universe, away from its almost paganistic (Michael Moorcock-esque) origins to something that is more acceptable to a modern Christian sensibility. i.e. Demons are bad, they only exist to cause pain and suffering to you, as you are the reason for and centre of their existence. I find this latter conception much more limiting and pretty dull by comparison TBH.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
Orks aren't as dumb as they are made out to be. Their speech only sounds moronic when the few that know some gothic speak that language to humans. In general, an average ork is less intelligent than an average human, but with a similar bell curve so there are a good proportion of very intelligent orks too. However, they all love fighting, generally prefer simple solutions to problems and have less regard for their own lives than humans

Basically they are smarter than their fluff depicts but aren't just green humans.

I also agree with Da Boss, the gestalt psychic-tech thing is a human theory and isn't true

Hm, from the fluff that bit about intelligence is much what it seems like to me. Yeah the average ork is pretty dim, but they aren't stupid and a lot of the things we associate with intelligence are simply not behaviors they would engage in anyways.

Once again I will sound like a grognard and once again say I much preferred the older, Rogue Trader conception of Orks. Where they had towns and behaved in activities which were similar but different (and perhaps just cruder) to our own. You had several books written on the subject of Ork Kulture! And it was just so packed with character. Obviously having some intelligence was part of that; having a real, functioning society, being able to trade with humans (even allying themselves as Mercs). Orks could turn to Chaos because they could actually think about that kind of stuff, and presumably had rituals and belief structures.

That's all been changed over the years to essentially a slightly more comedic version of Tyranids. The 'born from mushrooms' thing gets rid of the concept of Ork families (which again alluded to a more complex society) and now they are really only portrayed as screaming lunatics that run at things with choppas until they or the enemy are dead. Like a lot of the setting, it's been reduced to something very basic that's easy to understand and fits around the limits imposed by the tabletop wargame.

The Emperor being a psychically souped up bio-construct, with Malcador being the true power behind the throne, and the true master of mankind.

Robute Guilliman is still in stasis on Ultramar, he's barely conscious and has just enough faculties left to dream. Many of the changes in the galaxy since his entombment are wishful thinking; Ultramar doesn't rule a large sub-Imperium vastly more competently than the rest of the place, Cawl hasn't improved on the Emperor's work and pulled a more advanced new iteration of the Astartes out of his ass, and new Chapters are made from a variety of gene-seed, not almost always his own. His rivals within the Imperium are far more competent than he thinks; the Mechanicum hasn't mothballed their entire Heresy-era arsenal to build an entirely new army of smaller and worse things, Cadia's actually just fine and still sending Guardsmen out to gain combat experience across the Imperium between Black Crusades, the Inquisition maintains their Stormtrooper regiments still rather than relying entirely on a few thousand specialized Space Marines to do their jobs, and the Space Wolves are actually sensible people that don't preface every noun with "wolf" or ride wolf-pulled sleighs or rip the sleeves off their power armour. His enemies aren't conveniently constructed so that only Space Marines can defeat them, no Space Marine has ever soloed an Avatar of Khaine, Greater Daemons tend to manifest fifteen-foot bodies rather than fifty-foot bodies so they can fit indoors, and there's no super Warp Rift splitting the galaxy and requiring Guilliman to come back and relive his glory days of the Great Crusade to address. The Tyranids are a serious threat, a Hive Fleet can't be stopped by parking a hundred Space Marines in their way and shooting 'till the Tyranids run out of biomass. Guilliman's mind may be bad at inventing new people but in the real world the cast of characters does actually rotate; Cawl may have been a senior Magos back when Guilliman was alive but he's actually long-dead now. Eldrad died destroying the Planet Killer, Vect wasn't able to maintain stable control over Commoragh for very long and it dissolved into factional infighting again after his death, and the cast of CSM named characters have all either died or ascended to Daemonhood long ago. The nine Traitor Legions have all long-since disintegrated and aside from small forces that have stuck to their Daemon Primarch the forces of Chaos haven't bothered to keep up the traditions and heraldry of their forebears.

 Pacific wrote:
Really a lot of things you talk about here are the older incarnation of the game universe. For example no. 2, Primarchs did used to be an almost 'commander' level. Marines were 'chemically hardened' before the WH40k Compilation book, representing more like the Sardakur from Dune - trained killers who were given armour and weapons and unleashed on enemies. The 'Noble Knight' and defender of mankind thing came before 2nd edition and has gradually developed from there. I personally think there should be room for both the 'Noble' and also ruthless, trained killers (which is why the Great Crusade is such a great setting! As you have room for that kind of thing, hopefully untouched by Cawl and other modern, drastic changes to the setting).
For number 9 I totally agree. The modern 40k description of demons is so limited compared it's influencing material, which was the Michael Moorcock books, with its pantheon of Gods playing and fighting between each other and mankind caught in the middle (which is really taken from Greek classical literature). It's a lot more fun and varied I think, with Chaos being this 'Pandora's Box' of infinite possibility that opens your mind to the universe vs. the straight-line 'order' of the Imperium. You really want to open that box but it will destroy your mind and change you if you do it! I can see that being something people would want to do. Who the hell would want to be given a horrible disease and turned into a rotten pile of puss, have to wear red leather and collect skulls or unwittingly suddenly turned into a haemaphrodite with claw hands?! (actually don't answer that question )

I'm sure there is a paper to be written on how a more modern Judeo-Christian viewpoint has altered the outlook of 'Daemons' within the 40k universe, away from its almost paganistic (Michael Moorcock-esque) origins to something that is more acceptable to a modern Christian sensibility. i.e. Demons are bad, they only exist to cause pain and suffering to you, as you are the reason for and centre of their existence. I find this latter conception much more limiting and pretty dull by comparison TBH.

I think a good example of why Chaos might feel appealing to an average schlub in the Imperium is that if your kid is born with, say, a cleft palette or something like that, in the Imperium, your kid is just killed unless you hide it, and you'll be killed if you're found doing so. In Chaos-controlled territory, the reaction might vary, but it would be considered a gift from the gods on some level. Perhaps not the healthiest reaction, but far better than genocide.

 Pacific wrote:


Once again I will sound like a grognard and once again say I much preferred the older, Rogue Trader conception of Orks. Where they had towns and behaved in activities which were similar but different (and perhaps just cruder) to our own. You had several books written on the subject of Ork Kulture! And it was just so packed with character. Obviously having some intelligence was part of that; having a real, functioning society, being able to trade with humans (even allying themselves as Mercs). Orks could turn to Chaos because they could actually think about that kind of stuff, and presumably had rituals and belief structures.

That's all been changed over the years to essentially a slightly more comedic version of Tyranids. The 'born from mushrooms' thing gets rid of the concept of Ork families (which again alluded to a more complex society) and now they are really only portrayed as screaming lunatics that run at things with choppas until they or the enemy are dead. Like a lot of the setting, it's been reduced to something very basic that's easy to understand and fits around the limits imposed by the tabletop wargame.

As a big ork fan I like the fact that they reproduce asexually - it makes them *alien* (while still being the kind of entity you could walk up and have a conversation with, unlike Tyranids). I think, by implication, a lot of that culture (rokkerz and so on) still exists, it's just that they have this method of reproduction which implies their outlook is completely different from many of the other races, since sexual reproduction drives so much of their behavior. For orks, the way they reproduce is when fungal strands grow together - so if they want to reproduce with a partner, they need to go out and fight them, and shed spores and possibly corpses will mix and create offspring with mixed qualities of both.

I am the same, I like the mushroom background for Orks and I like them having their very singular approach to life. But I agree, they should not be comedy Tyranids and I think they should be capable of negotiating with others and working as Mercs and so on as well.
I would just tone it back a bit, so they still love to fight and are focused on that, but make it so it is not the only thing they ever think about.

My list is pretty "rogue trader" inspired for sure, because I want to get the game back to what attracted me to it in the beginning without losing any of the cool stuff. That is part of why I want the Imperium to have less control, because then I can still use the over the top stuff from the Imperium which is quite fun or interesting while having freedom to do other things outside it.

As faction identities got stronger over the years stuff got concentrated down into very particular brands, and I think that drove some of the Flanderization of the setting. So I just want to tone all that stuff back and allow for a bit more nuance and complexity.

I want to run a Stars Without Number campaign in this setting, so it needs to allow for a fairly loose sandbox approach to gaming, and I think the 40K setting as it is presented is a bit too particular for that. The extreme Xenophobia, hatred of new technologies, extreme prejudice toward Psykers and mutants and all that makes them a good antagonist faction, but really limits what you can do aside from that and kinda locks you in a very specific genre. I want to be able to have access to that but also to mess around with other Sci Fi tropes and ideas.

The alpha legion is actually trying to save humanity from both chaos and the imperium. They were shown that chaos would destroy humanity quickly, the emperor would destroy it slowly thru stagnation and decay.

They are trying to save humanity from both fates and work towards the defeat of both chaos and the imperium, they are playing the very long game and must keep both sides unaware of their true intent.



I also believe most ork vehicles, flame weapons and jump packs use squigfarts for fuel. I think there are huge gas squigs that eat ork excrement and constantly produce massive highly flammable farts which are collected via hoses inserted in the gas squigs and used as fuel for vehicles and flame weapons.

You can run vehicles off gas, australia did it in ww2 when their oil was cut off.

I'm guessing the Australians Gestalt Consciousness played a part too?

OP

The Sisters of Battle are a good girl faction. You can throw as much grimdark symbolism as you want but effectively it’s an army of holy warrior women fighting against evil creatures that want to exterminate humanity. Plus the Emperor is legit the God of Humanity to all intents and purposes. Whether they worship the man or the spirit born of all the people worshipping him is semantics. They embody hope.

Some writers do roll with this notion in Black Library, others don’t and there’s kind of this odd moral equivalence between the violence used by Chaos and them being mildly disdainful towards Demons and those who side with Chaos.

For example they say in the trailer that their mission to purge the alien, the mutant and the heretic. Sounds very grimdark. Aliens who want to exterminate and conquer humanity except for those we can reason with like the Eldar. Mutants, meaning only those warped by Chaos and not the likes of Ogyre, navigators, ratlings (in faith and fury book one of the Sisters keeps a voidborn mutant as a servant), and heretics meaning entirely the forces of Chaos whereas any human creed or theology is considered per the Codex to be worshipping the Emperor. They aren’t actually intolerant when you consider what Chaos is and what the alien empires do to humanity on a daily basis.

But yeah same codex and art style depicts them in a super sinister manner. Sure, Repentia are a bit extreme, but they take that on themselves.

I like fungal Orks as well, and I like that their whole mentality is focused on fighting. It is really difficult as a human to truly put yourself in the mindset of something inherently inhuman, but GW has done so with Orks and done it well. They also have background for which their state makes perfect sense. Orks are perhaps the only race I don't have any problems with fluff wise.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

For example they say in the trailer that their mission to purge the alien, the mutant and the heretic. Sounds very grimdark. Aliens who want to exterminate and conquer humanity except for those we can reason with like the Eldar.

Sororitas want to kill peaceful aliens too. They want to kill their civilians. They want to kill their children, and don't give a gak about their horrified cries of pain, and won't relent until they are dead. They (in particular, since they're so fanatical), and all other members of the Imperium, are ignorant monsters who have turned their backs on all that is worthwhile in humanity.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Mutants, meaning only those warped by Chaos and not the likes of Ogyre, navigators, ratlings (in faith and fury book one of the Sisters keeps a voidborn mutant as a servant), and heretics meaning entirely the forces of Chaos whereas any human creed or theology is considered per the Codex to be worshipping the Emperor. They aren’t actually intolerant when you consider what Chaos is and what the alien empires do to humanity on a daily basis.

No, they're incredibly intolerant. By "mutation" they mean "physical deformity" and the most recent fluff on the matter says that 1 in 1000 mutants is kept alive, the rest are killed. The ones who are kept alive are mostly Beastmen and other mutants that are useful for the Imperium's murder machine. So if you were in the Imperium and had a kid who was born with a cleft palette or intersex or whatever, a Sororitas would kill your infant child, and if you tried to stop them they'd kill you, too, probably torturing you slowly to make a point.

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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I like fungal Orks as well, and I like that their whole mentality is focused on fighting. It is really difficult as a human to truly put yourself in the mindset of something inherently inhuman, but GW has done so with Orks and done it well. They also have background for which their state makes perfect sense. Orks are perhaps the only race I don't have any problems with fluff wise.

What's your issue with Eldar?

Hecaton wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

For example they say in the trailer that their mission to purge the alien, the mutant and the heretic. Sounds very grimdark. Aliens who want to exterminate and conquer humanity except for those we can reason with like the Eldar.

Sororitas want to kill peaceful aliens too. They want to kill their civilians. They want to kill their children, and don't give a gak about their horrified cries of pain, and won't relent until they are dead. They (in particular, since they're so fanatical), and all other members of the Imperium, are ignorant monsters who have turned their backs on all that is worthwhile in humanity.

You can make anything monstrous if you put that much spin on it.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You can make anything monstrous if you put that much spin on it.

Nah. The Imperium is pretty damn evil in 40k.

Hecaton wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I like fungal Orks as well, and I like that their whole mentality is focused on fighting. It is really difficult as a human to truly put yourself in the mindset of something inherently inhuman, but GW has done so with Orks and done it well. They also have background for which their state makes perfect sense. Orks are perhaps the only race I don't have any problems with fluff wise.

What's your issue with Eldar?

Slaanesh is the god of excess, taking anything to an extreme. It doesn't matter what it is. But the path system of Asuryani is basically 'focus on this one thing to the exclusion of everything else to avoid Slaanesh'. I know that is a vast simplification and I think GW has done a good job bending that bit of fluff in a way that it works, but the mismatch between the core idea and its purpose still bugs me.

Hecaton wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You can make anything monstrous if you put that much spin on it.

Nah. The Imperium is pretty damn evil in 40k.

The Imperium is "evil" based on the current moral standards imposed by the current western world's relative thinking on the issues of morals.

In universe, everything the Imperium does is, by their logic, justifiable because the alternative is the annihilation of the human species by Xenos, both material and immaterial.

If wiping out 2 quadrillion innocents would prevent the planet from possibly turning into a Chaos infested hell-hole later down the line, thus weakening the Imperium further and contributing to it's already slow decline, why wouldn't they? 2 quadrillion lives is a water molecule, in a drop, in a bucket, in an ocean, compared to the Imperium at large.

Killing them is also FAR kinder than what would happen if Chaos took over.

Wow, didn't take this thread long to reach ignition point.

Anyway, a headcannon i had was that the old ones looked at the eldar and orks and realized they'd fethed the barking toad twice by creating races in a complete state with culture, language, belif systems, etc.

So they decided to see if the thnird time was the charm and created a third race, but in this case they just initiated an ecosystem and coded it to possibly produce a sentient species and let it evolve on it's own.

So they smacked a rather unimpressive planet with an asteroid to reset it's ecosystem, dropped bio bombs on it to seed it with their planed ecosystem and decided to come back someday to see what it produced.

Of course the planet was later named terra, and the species they let 'grow wild' was humanity, the wildflowers as opposed to the hothouse plant eldar and orks who were totally designed.

Hecaton wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

For example they say in the trailer that their mission to purge the alien, the mutant and the heretic. Sounds very grimdark. Aliens who want to exterminate and conquer humanity except for those we can reason with like the Eldar.

Sororitas want to kill peaceful aliens too. They want to kill their civilians. They want to kill their children, and don't give a gak about their horrified cries of pain, and won't relent until they are dead. They (in particular, since they're so fanatical), and all other members of the Imperium, are ignorant monsters who have turned their backs on all that is worthwhile in humanity.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Mutants, meaning only those warped by Chaos and not the likes of Ogyre, navigators, ratlings (in faith and fury book one of the Sisters keeps a voidborn mutant as a servant), and heretics meaning entirely the forces of Chaos whereas any human creed or theology is considered per the Codex to be worshipping the Emperor. They aren’t actually intolerant when you consider what Chaos is and what the alien empires do to humanity on a daily basis.

No, they're incredibly intolerant. By "mutation" they mean "physical deformity" and the most recent fluff on the matter says that 1 in 1000 mutants is kept alive, the rest are killed. The ones who are kept alive are mostly Beastmen and other mutants that are useful for the Imperium's murder machine. So if you were in the Imperium and had a kid who was born with a cleft palette or intersex or whatever, a Sororitas would kill your infant child, and if you tried to stop them they'd kill you, too, probably torturing you slowly to make a point.


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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I like fungal Orks as well, and I like that their whole mentality is focused on fighting. It is really difficult as a human to truly put yourself in the mindset of something inherently inhuman, but GW has done so with Orks and done it well. They also have background for which their state makes perfect sense. Orks are perhaps the only race I don't have any problems with fluff wise.

What's your issue with Eldar?

Because they don’t. Like ever. The Black Library and their lore does not portray them killing civilians. There’s some 3rd ed Witchhunters lore I can recall where it’s wrapped in the whole innocence proves nothing. Etc etc. Aliens? Not really. It never comes up. What you have are books where they ally and make common cause with alien species. They depict the Sisters in pretty favourable light throughout. If the intent was to demonise the faction, especially in matter of fact lore books they would just do that. Show don’t tell and they aren’t even telling.

In a Sisters novel you have a Sister character who is friends with two mutant characters who help her with her armour. Natural mutation is not an issue and they aren’t shown going out into the sewers to kill mutant civilians. If it’s a Genecult like in the Mason book they’re just thralls to the Hivemind who can’t be saved or reasoned with. If they’re only ever shown killing unambiguous monsters then I am not seeing this really. Take the Brotherhood of Steel in Fallout 4. They immediately start calling synth and ghoul characters who are your companions and friends abominations. Bethesda creates a clear conflict and shows them being in the wrong. If GW wanted to depict the Sisters in a similar light they could but they don’t.

Okay, don’t know why are you bringing insults into this. Foregoing the aforementioned Brotherhood of Steel who I clocked within twenty seconds of meeting them again in Boston. Daughters of Khaine. Very obviously depicted as evil despite being beautiful. Read their tie in novel and they keep slaves, they murder innocents, betray their friends, human sacrifices and have no regard for normal people. That’s how GW writes a faction they want to be evil. You’re beginning with the assumption they’re being subtle if they write them as noble warrior heroes fighting clear cut monsters.

Clearly I have to break down for you my previous post and it’s tongue in cheek nature. We’re discussing head canon. Meaning I am fully aware GW has an edgelord brand and for everything to be grimdark. The Codex tells us they’re a dark faction the moment you look at the front cover where these dominatrixs in black are walking over a field of skulls on fire. Even if they don’t engage with those themes at all and it may as well be power rangers. Which is why theres this huge gap between the codex depicting the faction as horrific grimdark and you read Faith and Fire where the Hospitaller character is this nice compassionate girl mourning for the death of her Sister who wants to save everyone.

How does that work out for her?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Slaanesh is the god of excess, taking anything to an extreme. It doesn't matter what it is. But the path system of Asuryani is basically 'focus on this one thing to the exclusion of everything else to avoid Slaanesh'. I know that is a vast simplification and I think GW has done a good job bending that bit of fluff in a way that it works, but the mismatch between the core idea and its purpose still bugs me.

So, to rebut this point a little. The Paths don't exist to allow an Eldar to obsess over one role/job/aspect. It's intended to STOP them from doing that. They focus on a single topic for a while, then are supposed to switch paths to avoid the obsession.

The ones who succumb to the obsession are the Exarchs, and both the Exarchs and the rest of the Craftworld know they have chosen a path of damnation in doing so.

Bobby G was one of the traitor Primarchs. Rather than reveal his hand and sully his Legion he simply utilized positioning to "delay" his forces for the main battle of Terra. This had the benefit of being able to augment Horus' forces had he succeeded, or to quietly seize power had he not. The assassination by Fulgrim was a simple act if revenge for that betrayal. Knowing nothing of the treason, the Ultramarines have carried on with his perceived memory and spread their geneseed to 2/3 of the standing Marine forces. Upon his return, he has enlisted Cawl to utilize the Primaris program to slip his geneseed into other chapters. Soon, he will have all Marines linked to his will. Soon, he will strike...

A little wishlisting, yes. I already have some Chaos Marines painted in Ultramarines colors with Ultramarines insignias.


Now my serious headcanon is that Cortez isn't dead or captured by Dark Eldar currently.

I wake up from a weird dream where I am an oil magnate in Texas and find Carmen Electra taking a shower in my bathroom.

My real headcannon is that the four chaos gods are not all that their cracked up to be and that there are more than a few rogue chapters out there, that have sworn off the emperor for a totally different god from afore mentioned five deities or became atheist's. One being my home made chapter. I may add others as I think on them.

The Emperor was an incompetent bastard who screwed everything up by rewarding unquestioning loyalty over initiative. He's also been dead for ages now and the whole Cult of the Emperor is just a big con - but one that is actually preserving the Imperium from the Chaos Gods, because it's humanity's faith in the Emperor, not the actual Emperor himself, that has power. Basically, humans are similar to orks in that their collective belief creates a God called The Emperor that protects them, even though he doesn't really exist any more, and was actually a dick back when he did exist.

Also, Orks are the sole utopian faction in 40k. They're the only ones without angst, and they are only kept primitive by all the angst of the other factions keeping them down. If the Orks ever became dominant, they would naturally advance into the ideal utopian society, with freedom and happiness for all.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The Imperium is "evil" based on the current moral standards imposed by the current western world's relative thinking on the issues of morals.

In universe, everything the Imperium does is, by their logic, justifiable because the alternative is the annihilation of the human species by Xenos, both material and immaterial.

We, the reader, aren't part of the Imperium and if you think what the Imperium does is justifiable from an outside perspective please never vote or reproduce.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If wiping out 2 quadrillion innocents would prevent the planet from possibly turning into a Chaos infested hell-hole later down the line, thus weakening the Imperium further and contributing to it's already slow decline, why wouldn't they? 2 quadrillion lives is a water molecule, in a drop, in a bucket, in an ocean, compared to the Imperium at large.

Yes, the Imperium is both stupid and evil, we've established this.


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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Killing them is also FAR kinder than what would happen if Chaos took over.

Chaos is not omnicidal. Total crapshoot, but Chaos is *at worst* as bad as the Imperium, and *at best* better.

Emps being a complete dick isn't headcannon


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Hecaton wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Killing them is also FAR kinder than what would happen if Chaos took over.

Chaos is not omnicidal. Total crapshoot, but Chaos is *at worst* as bad as the Imperium, and *at best* better.

You really don't know Chaos fluff very well if that's your conclusion.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Because they don’t. Like ever. The Black Library and their lore does not portray them killing civilians. There’s some 3rd ed Witchhunters lore I can recall where it’s wrapped in the whole innocence proves nothing. Etc etc. Aliens? Not really. It never comes up. What you have are books where they ally and make common cause with alien species. They depict the Sisters in pretty favourable light throughout. If the intent was to demonise the faction, especially in matter of fact lore books they would just do that. Show don’t tell and they aren’t even telling.

All of this is contradicted by the core 40k lore, which agrees with me and disagrees with you.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
In a Sisters novel you have a Sister character who is friends with two mutant characters who help her with her armour. Natural mutation is not an issue and they aren’t shown going out into the sewers to kill mutant civilians. If it’s a Genecult like in the Mason book they’re just thralls to the Hivemind who can’t be saved or reasoned with. If they’re only ever shown killing unambiguous monsters then I am not seeing this really. Take the Brotherhood of Steel in Fallout 4. They immediately start calling synth and ghoul characters who are your companions and friends abominations. Bethesda creates a clear conflict and shows them being in the wrong. If GW wanted to depict the Sisters in a similar light they could but they don’t.

Again, the core 40k lore portrays them as genocidal theofascists with a good fashion sense. If a Black Library book contradicts the information in the core book, and the information that goes back to Rogue Trader about them, imma go with the core book.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Okay, don’t know why are you bringing insults into this. Foregoing the aforementioned Brotherhood of Steel who I clocked within twenty seconds of meeting them again in Boston. Daughters of Khaine. Very obviously depicted as evil despite being beautiful. Read their tie in novel and they keep slaves, they murder innocents, betray their friends, human sacrifices and have no regard for normal people. That’s how GW writes a faction they want to be evil. You’re beginning with the assumption they’re being subtle if they write them as noble warrior heroes fighting clear cut monsters.

Daughters of Khaine are not coded as Christian, with Fleur de Lys iconography and so on.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Clearly I have to break down for you my previous post and it’s tongue in cheek nature. We’re discussing head canon. Meaning I am fully aware GW has an edgelord brand and for everything to be grimdark. The Codex tells us they’re a dark faction the moment you look at the front cover where these dominatrixs in black are walking over a field of skulls on fire. Even if they don’t engage with those themes at all and it may as well be power rangers. Which is why theres this huge gap between the codex depicting the faction as horrific grimdark and you read Faith and Fire where the Hospitaller character is this nice compassionate girl mourning for the death of her Sister who wants to save everyone.

I mean if you want that as your headcanon that's fine, but it breaks with the setting pretty hard. Again, genocidal child murderers who justify said brutal child murdering as good and holy in their religion.

Hecaton wrote:
We, the reader, aren't part of the Imperium and if you think what the Imperium does is justifiable from an outside perspective please never vote or reproduce.

Do you need me to get you some Tylenol? I'm just worried you might have thrown out your back, what with all those bales of straw you're stacking.

Unless you've somehow proven that "morals" are somehow an objective, fundamental property of the fabric of the universe?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Chaos is not omnicidal. Total crapshoot, but Chaos is *at worst* as bad as the Imperium, and *at best* better.

You really don't know Chaos fluff very well if that's your conclusion.

Hecaton wrote:
Daughters of Khaine are not coded as Christian, with Fleur de Lys iconography and so on.

Even Plastic Man would be suitably impressed by the amount of stretching in this statement.


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Hecaton wrote:
I don't think you understand your own argument. Either what the Imperium does is justifiable from a decent person's point of view or it isn't. Sure it's justified *from their perspective* but so are Chaos, Eldar, etc. So were Nazis.

Ooh, the reverse-Thermian fallacy. Haven't heard that one in a while!

Yeah, it's obvious that by modern, western standards, the Imperium is bad. So is literally every other faction in 40k. That doesn't mean the Imperium isn't 100% justified in what it does in-universe, because last I checked, we haven't spent 10,000 years with the risk of the entire species of humanity being on the brink of being wiped out by malevolent alien races.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Even Plastic Man would be suitably impressed by the amount of stretching in this statement.

Sororitas being coded as Euro-Christian was an important part of my argument. No stretch needed.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Ooh, the reverse-Thermian fallacy. Haven't heard that one in a while!

Not really a fallacy in this case. Argument stands.

Hecaton wrote:
Not really a fallacy in this case. Argument stands.

Your argument literally boils down to "This fictional universe shouldn't have bad things happening in it because the writers can choose to not have the bad things happen." That is a fallacy.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yeah, it's obvious that by modern, western standards, the Imperium is bad. So is literally every other faction in 40k. That doesn't mean the Imperium isn't 100% justified in what it does in-universe, because last I checked, we haven't spent 10,000 years with the risk of the entire species of humanity being on the brink of being wiped out by malevolent alien races.

You kill someone's child. Now they're trying to kill you. Are you justified in using lethal force to defend yourself? Is it a morally right thing to do? The Imperium is basically in that situation. Chaos is a problem of their own making, orks are attacking them because they're already so warlike, and the Eldar don't trust them because the Imperium is made up of corrupt, backstabbing degenerates. The Imperium deserves what it gets.

When I say "justified from their own perspective" I'm saying that the Imperium thinks that they're good guys, not that their actions are morally justified in context (they aren't).


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 BaconCatBug wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
Not really a fallacy in this case. Argument stands.

Your argument literally boils down to "This fictional universe shouldn't have bad things happening in it because the writers can choose to not have the bad things happen." That is a fallacy.

Nope! You've misunderstood me. The Imperium is not "times are hard we're making hard choices to survive, some of which are morally questionable." That's the Tau. The Imperium is "Times are hard and we're going to make them worse because fixing the problem would involve admitting we were wrong." It's the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable, full of corrupt, self-interested people.

Hecaton wrote:
You kill someone's child. Now they're trying to kill you. Are you justified in using lethal force to defend yourself? Is it a morally right thing to do?

That all depends on your own subjective morals. There is no objective morality. To claim so is beyond ludicrous. There are also hundreds of factors that haven't been defined.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
That all depends on your own subjective morals. There is no objective morality. To claim so is beyond ludicrous.

That's a matter of some debate, but it's obvious that you don't even believe that yourself - since you were talking about the Imperium being justified on the basis of various things. If you really believed that you'd say "the Imperium is neither justified nor unjustified, as justification doesn't matter because there's no objective morals."

So anyway, come back to me when you're not arguing in bad faith.

Hecaton wrote:
When I say "justified from their own perspective" I'm saying that the Imperium thinks that they're good guys, not that their actions are morally justified in context (they aren't).

Nope! You've misunderstood me. The Imperium is not "times are hard we're making hard choices to survive, some of which are morally questionable." That's the Tau. The Imperium is "Times are hard and we're going to make them worse because fixing the problem would involve admitting we were wrong." It's the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable, full of corrupt, self-interested people.

You're once again ascribing objective judgments on something that is inherently subjective.

The Imperium's task is task "Ensure humanity survives". Anything beyond that is, to the Imperium's perspective, irrelevant. Just because you, personally, feel it's a bad way of doing things means diddly squat. If you don't like the setting, don't engage in it. Not every IP has to be My Little Pony and Carebears.


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Hecaton wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
That all depends on your own subjective morals. There is no objective morality. To claim so is beyond ludicrous.

That's a matter of some debate, but it's obvious that you don't even believe that yourself - since you were talking about the Imperium being justified on the basis of various things. If you really believed that you'd say "the Imperium is neither justified nor unjustified, as justification doesn't matter because there's no objective morals."

So anyway, come back to me when you're not arguing in bad faith.

I am saying from the Imperium's subjective view, they are justified. In the end, it's literally a work of fiction, and even if it were real, in the end it's all meaningless anyway. Have you considered that if you don't like the setting, you could just, ya know, ignore it? TBH you're coming across as the sort of person who says "You can't do X here, make your own Y to do X" then screech bloody murder when people make their own Y and try to get it deplatformed.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I am saying from the Imperium's subjective view, they are justified. In the end, it's literally a work of fiction, and even if it were real, in the end it's all meaningless anyway. Have you considered that if you don't like the setting, you could just, ya know, ignore it? TBH you're coming across as the sort of person who says "You can't do X here, make your own Y to do X" then screech bloody murder when people make their own Y and try to get it deplatformed.

Sure, but from the Dark Eldar's subjective view, they are justified, etc. The Imperium's subjective viewpoint is morally bankrupt. Merely portraying a behavior in fiction isn't endorsing it, however, so the setting existing doesn't stress me out; it's the people who think that the Imperium is unironically laudable who worry me.

Hecaton wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I am saying from the Imperium's subjective view, they are justified. In the end, it's literally a work of fiction, and even if it were real, in the end it's all meaningless anyway. Have you considered that if you don't like the setting, you could just, ya know, ignore it? TBH you're coming across as the sort of person who says "You can't do X here, make your own Y to do X" then screech bloody murder when people make their own Y and try to get it deplatformed.

Sure, but from the Dark Eldar's subjective view, they are justified, etc. The Imperium's subjective viewpoint is morally bankrupt. Merely portraying a behavior in fiction isn't endorsing it, however, so the setting existing doesn't stress me out; it's the people who think that the Imperium is unironically laudable who worry me.

Morally bankrupt... to your personal subjective morality.

Moral relativism is a boring argument because it goes nowhere. A serial killer's actions are (probably, I guess in theory they might not be) justified according to his or her subjective views, too.

It's also boring because nobody - and I mean nobody - actually believes it. Nobody sees the person throwing babies off cliffs and says "oh well, who am I to judge? Morality is all subjective!"

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Morally bankrupt... to your personal subjective morality.

But not to yours?

I'm pretty confident in stating my own "personal subjective morality" is in fact, objectively superior to the Imperium's. The Imperium sees the infliction of suffering on the supposedly deserving (nonhumans, those born with physical deformities, religious enemies) as a good in and of itself. *That's* morally bankrupt on a fundamental level.

The thing I've noticed about 40K fans is that they're often unable to distinguish between "They're doing what they need to do to survive" and "They're doing what they think they need to do to survive, but are also ignorant fools and therefore are probably wrong a lot of the time".

The other thing I've noticed is that y'all are really bad at staying on topic. More personal headcannon, less discussion of the objective/subjective nature of morality in the real world, which is both off-topic and probably also violates the no politics or religion rule!

 Duskweaver wrote:
The thing I've noticed about 40K fans is that they're often unable to distinguish between "They're doing what they need to do to survive" and "They're doing what they think they need to do to survive, but are also ignorant fools and therefore are probably wrong a lot of the time".

Yup. Though I would put the Imperium into "willfully ignorant." Far more convenient for AdMech Magi to promote superstition and ignorance in a way that lets them hold on to power rather than democratizing scientific knowledge, for example.

It doesn't really even matter whether the Imperium is actually right that it needs to do what it does to survive. In a world that bleak, the only moral choice would be to accept eventual extinction and behave morally in the meantime.

But it is undoubtedly also not true. Humanity survived before the Emperor and the Imperium, and there's a fair amount of lore around the edges suggesting it not only survived, but thrived.

There are no primarchs, the pirmarchs are a lie of myth. The emperor isn't superhuman, just a lucky/talented psychic warrior.

The emperor had 12 talented generals. Two of them were lost to unknown reasons, then half rebelled against the emperor.

After the end of the Heresy, tales ballooned of their deeds, like the tales of Charlemange, Robin Hood and King Arthur, making them seem far more powerful and greater than they truly were.

That of course, means ignoring from the Guilliman model forward, but I'm fine with that. He's some sort of bioscientific abomination created by Cawl, at best. Not really the original primarch.

In my personal headcanon, one underlying core idea of the 40K setting is summed up in the old adage:

"Only the insane are strong enough to prosper

and only those who prosper

truly judge what is sane"

ie. its a galaxy "gone mad". Notions of humanity or christian morals have been thrown out the door millennias ago. Pretty much everyone (except T'au) have resorted to their primal instincts, its all survival mode and the rule of the strongest. This is also where the medieval throwbacks come from, it was arguably a period of time when democracy was nonexistent and the weak were always on the mercy of the strong. Stuff was plenty chaotic, and the poorest civilians suffered most during those times.

It's almost as pointless to discuss a topic such as "good/evil" in 40K as it is in trying to project these definitons to wild animals living on earth.

The IoM relies on physical strenght for power, the mechanicus relies on knowledge for theirs. Inquisition is an interesting institution as it combines both powers. The Ecclesiarchy is the glue that prevents the Imperium societies from falling apart into total barbarism. this is also what Christian religion did in Europe back in the day; It soothed the common man and kept malcontent in check, prevented the poor from eating the rich, enduring the hell on earth with a humble smile on their face, knowing they would be ultimately rewarded in the afterlife (yeah right - suckers!).

Ecclesiarchy is also ruthless af, just as it was during Crusades in Europe. If SoB are carrying out His will, they will be just as cruel and ruthless toward those decreed unclean by their religion. Some BL book writers trying to tell stories about "Saint Mariahs" will not convince me otherwise since I will never respect BL rubbish as "canon". On an individual level, sure, not everyone is as ruthless as another, there has always been exceptional individuals throughout history, but in 40K their valour and the hope they bring is but a tiny speck of light in the blanket of the night, the amount of which is never going to be enough for anyone even to read a single poem with.

Buut, since extrapolating such a setting over the whole of humanity would be severely limiting scifi-RPG-storytelling wise, in my headcanon the Imperium does not control all human inhabited worlds. Which is why the RT lore rules!

Hecaton wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Because they don’t. Like ever. The Black Library and their lore does not portray them killing civilians. There’s some 3rd ed Witchhunters lore I can recall where it’s wrapped in the whole innocence proves nothing. Etc etc. Aliens? Not really. It never comes up. What you have are books where they ally and make common cause with alien species. They depict the Sisters in pretty favourable light throughout. If the intent was to demonise the faction, especially in matter of fact lore books they would just do that. Show don’t tell and they aren’t even telling.

All of this is contradicted by the core 40k lore, which agrees with me and disagrees with you.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
In a Sisters novel you have a Sister character who is friends with two mutant characters who help her with her armour. Natural mutation is not an issue and they aren’t shown going out into the sewers to kill mutant civilians. If it’s a Genecult like in the Mason book they’re just thralls to the Hivemind who can’t be saved or reasoned with. If they’re only ever shown killing unambiguous monsters then I am not seeing this really. Take the Brotherhood of Steel in Fallout 4. They immediately start calling synth and ghoul characters who are your companions and friends abominations. Bethesda creates a clear conflict and shows them being in the wrong. If GW wanted to depict the Sisters in a similar light they could but they don’t.

Again, the core 40k lore portrays them as genocidal theofascists with a good fashion sense. If a Black Library book contradicts the information in the core book, and the information that goes back to Rogue Trader about them, imma go with the core book.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Okay, don’t know why are you bringing insults into this. Foregoing the aforementioned Brotherhood of Steel who I clocked within twenty seconds of meeting them again in Boston. Daughters of Khaine. Very obviously depicted as evil despite being beautiful. Read their tie in novel and they keep slaves, they murder innocents, betray their friends, human sacrifices and have no regard for normal people. That’s how GW writes a faction they want to be evil. You’re beginning with the assumption they’re being subtle if they write them as noble warrior heroes fighting clear cut monsters.

Daughters of Khaine are not coded as Christian, with Fleur de Lys iconography and so on.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Clearly I have to break down for you my previous post and it’s tongue in cheek nature. We’re discussing head canon. Meaning I am fully aware GW has an edgelord brand and for everything to be grimdark. The Codex tells us they’re a dark faction the moment you look at the front cover where these dominatrixs in black are walking over a field of skulls on fire. Even if they don’t engage with those themes at all and it may as well be power rangers. Which is why theres this huge gap between the codex depicting the faction as horrific grimdark and you read Faith and Fire where the Hospitaller character is this nice compassionate girl mourning for the death of her Sister who wants to save everyone.

I mean if you want that as your headcanon that's fine, but it breaks with the setting pretty hard. Again, genocidal child murderers who justify said brutal child murdering as good and holy in their religion.

It’s pretty much every Sister of Battle novel by Black Library unless they’re being set up as the villains. Where oh they might be mean interrogating a Stormtrooper for information, or execute a corrupt cardinal and that’s about the limit of it. They’re basically written as the Amazons from Wonder Woman where some of them have a slightly ruthless persona whilst they’re saving innocent people from the monsters. They aren’t even particularly fanatical. It’s depicted as a very stoic, inward looking personal connection they have with their deity when they’re fighting Demons. BL does not write about them shooting Tau civilians or do a Fallout 4 Brotherhood where explicit attention is drawn to repugnant features. Also we aren’t talking one book BTW here this is kind of a consistent style for the Sisters across every novel about them. Either we assume they’re just letting BL do whatever they want or that’s the level of evil under discussion vaguely inferred in the art and lore on the codex. We certainly don’t read them trampling the skulls of the innocent underfoot as shown on the front cover on the codex.

So yeah, I don’t have a problem at all making my head canon that my army could all be like Verity and Meridya from Faith and Fire or Hammer and Anvil or pretty much any Sisters of Battle novel. It actually makes the faction better because having a hopeful and goody faction in a high stakes setting where everything seems bad makes for a good story. A much better story than everyone’s evil and we’re all screwed. I dunno. Maybe one Convent has an Elder Lyons moment and decides to prioritise saving people over posing on mounds of skulls. That’s not too much of a stretch in a big galaxy like 40k.

Which is why I suspect Black Library doesn’t write them as the front cover of the Codex depicts them. It’s like why I prefer the Fallout 3 Brotherhood to the one dimensional enclave lite of what they are in Fallout 4 where the game pretends it’s being morally grey to side with them. I would not have liked the Brotherhood at all if that had been my first depiction of them; I’d just steal their armour and go Minutemen. There is a very obvious appeal to making a “good” faction and I dismiss the idea you can’t have nuanced discussions about them. Take the Mandalorian and it’s depiction of the New Republic. They are still basically the Rebel Alliance, but it’s clearly got legit, become too bureaucratic and is oblivious to the threats on its borders. All valid things to discuss. To me that’s nuanced. Fallout 4s Brotherhood is basically “yeah people are obviously going to like the only faction that demands you kill your friends like Dance” and imply theyd kill a few others as well. Same with the Sisters. You could not write a story about them if they were depicted as genocidal monsters killing people of other faiths. Whilst at the same time it’s far too appealing to write them like the Amazons from Wonder Woman. GW uses the Grindark for the aesthetic not for thematic discussions in its lore, which is why there is this huge gap in the depictions. It’s very easy to handwave and ignore those lore elements suggesting otherwise.

The existence of repentias alone disproves any form of empathy or sanity within the sisters of battle. They are a completely bonkers religiously fanatical army. Can they be heroic in battle? Sure? Do they often sacrifice themselves in hope of martyrdom for the emperor and maybe save innocents in the process? You bet! They are still completely awful and that's why we love them, they are peak grimdark.
There are however shades of awfulness in 40k since this topic has been scratched...its never good faction versus evil faction...its evil faction versus maybe lesser evil faction.
The sisters are completely bonkers zaelots, but they are nowhere near as bad as dark eldar or an emperors children warband for example. This is, and I cannot stress this enough, what makes the setting interesting. Every 40k faction is awful by today's real life moral standards, BUT within the confines of the 40k universe there are lesser evils, which is the base of the whole conundrum.
Edits: readability and grammar

Tiberias wrote:
The existence of repentias alone disproves any form of empathy or sanity within the sisters of battle. They are a completely bonkers religiously fanatical army. Can they be heroic in battle? Sure? Do they often sacrifice themselves in hope of martyrdom for the emperor and maybe save innocents in the process? You bet! They are still completely awful and that's why we love them, they are peak grimdark.
There are however shades of awfulness in 40k since this topic has been scratched...its never good faction versus evil faction...its evil faction versus maybe lesser evil faction.
The sisters are completely bonkers zaelots, but they are nowhere near as bad as dark eldar or an emperors children warband for example. This is, and I cannot stress this enough, what makes the setting interesting. Every 40k faction is awful by today's real life moral standards, BUT within the confines of the 40k universe there are lesser evils, which is the base of the whole conundrum.
Edits: readability and grammar

It’s never been what makes 40k interesting. If it was then all the lore would focus on the High Lords of Terra, Planetary Governors, the Adminsitratum and the focus would be on plucky anti hero’s sticking the finger up to the system. Instead you have Space Wolves and Salamanders be some of the more popular factions. People like 40k for the ascetics and the high stakes of the conflict. If the BL wrote 40k grimdark then it would be impossible to sympathise with any character. It’s not actually very interesting to make a satire of the Soviet Union since it amounts to making patronising points that were covered in your GCSE history class. Ohh, dragons are bad because you might go crazy and burn a city down. That’s the level that sort of edgelord nihilist nonsense goes.

You aren’t forced to become a Repentia. They chose to do that. If your God is legit real that’s not irrational.

I think with them writing lore where Guilliman basically overthrows the High Lords, wants to change the Imperium for the better and making the Emperor the legit God of humanity the lore is being pushed more towards a High Fantasy take like in Age of Sigmar. This is being consciously done to make the setting more palatable especially if they’re going to be doing TV shows and stuff. I don’t have an issue with that.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
The existence of repentias alone disproves any form of empathy or sanity within the sisters of battle. They are a completely bonkers religiously fanatical army. Can they be heroic in battle? Sure? Do they often sacrifice themselves in hope of martyrdom for the emperor and maybe save innocents in the process? You bet! They are still completely awful and that's why we love them, they are peak grimdark.
There are however shades of awfulness in 40k since this topic has been scratched...its never good faction versus evil faction...its evil faction versus maybe lesser evil faction.
The sisters are completely bonkers zaelots, but they are nowhere near as bad as dark eldar or an emperors children warband for example. This is, and I cannot stress this enough, what makes the setting interesting. Every 40k faction is awful by today's real life moral standards, BUT within the confines of the 40k universe there are lesser evils, which is the base of the whole conundrum.
Edits: readability and grammar

It’s never been what makes 40k interesting. If it was then all the lore would focus on the High Lords of Terra, Planetary Governors, the Adminsitratum and the focus would be on plucky anti hero’s sticking the finger up to the system. Instead you have Space Wolves and Salamanders be some of the more popular factions. People like 40k for the ascetics and the high stakes of the conflict. If the BL wrote 40k grimdark then it would be impossible to sympathise with any character. It’s not actually very interesting to make a satire of the Soviet Union since it amounts to making patronising points that were covered in your GCSE history class. Ohh, dragons are bad because you might go crazy and burn a city down. That’s the level that sort of edgelord nihilist nonsense goes.

You aren’t forced to become a Repentia. They chose to do that. If your God is legit real that’s not irrational.

I think with them writing lore where Guilliman basically overthrows the High Lords, wants to change the Imperium for the better and making the Emperor the legit God of humanity the lore is being pushed more towards a High Fantasy take like in Age of Sigmar. This is being consciously done to make the setting more palatable especially if they’re going to be doing TV shows and stuff. I don’t have an issue with that.

If they do that, and go overboard, they lose what initially made 40k interesting.

Also your point about repentias is actually worrysome to me, if you are stuck within a cult or religion that incentivises you to mutilate yourself and go die horribly in combat for not upholding some vow purity or some BS, that is not rational, that's evil. Also if you don't accept the point regarding repentias, there are still penitent engines....so yeah, sisters of battle are flying rodent gak insane.

It would also suck if they made the emperor the de facto god of humanity. They absolutely have to leave some sort of ambiguity about his character. They should have done the same with primarchs. They work better as distant figures of legend and myth. But it is even more crucial with the emperor in my opinion. You cannot properly flesh out such a character without running into plotholes, especially when you have multiple authors tackling his persona without an overarching vision of what he should be.

Edit: on topic, my headcanon is that the emperor was not able to keep the web way gate beath the golden throne closed all the way all the time for the last ten thousand years. So the adeptus custodes had to fight small to medium demon incursions within the heart of the imperium itself on different occasions, which is an additional reason why the custodes have been absent during crucial times in imperial history like the age of apostasy.

My personal headcanon.

There is no Planet 'Omnicide'

'Murderfang' is just a manifestation of the wulfen instability in the Space Wolf gene seed. This appears most often, but still rarely, with those brothers interred in Dreadnoughts. Those dreadnoughts that succumb are equipped with CC weapons and then sent with/to packs who are in the most dire situations.

The 'Omnicide' saga regarding the finding of Murderfang was created to hide this instability from outsiders/ the inquisition.

yukishiro1 wrote:It doesn't really even matter whether the Imperium is actually right that it needs to do what it does to survive. In a world that bleak, the only moral choice would be to accept eventual extinction and behave morally in the meantime.

But it is undoubtedly also not true. Humanity survived before the Emperor and the Imperium, and there's a fair amount of lore around the edges suggesting it not only survived, but thrived.

Agreed - the Imperium *does not have to do what they do*, full stop.

Tiberias wrote:
The existence of repentias alone disproves any form of empathy or sanity within the sisters of battle. They are a completely bonkers religiously fanatical army. Can they be heroic in battle? Sure? Do they often sacrifice themselves in hope of martyrdom for the emperor and maybe save innocents in the process? You bet! They are still completely awful and that's why we love them, they are peak grimdark.
There are however shades of awfulness in 40k since this topic has been scratched...its never good faction versus evil faction...its evil faction versus maybe lesser evil faction.
The sisters are completely bonkers zaelots, but they are nowhere near as bad as dark eldar or an emperors children warband for example. This is, and I cannot stress this enough, what makes the setting interesting. Every 40k faction is awful by today's real life moral standards, BUT within the confines of the 40k universe there are lesser evils, which is the base of the whole conundrum.
Edits: readability and grammar

I mean, I see what you're saying, but I'd argue that the Imperium is worse than Dark Eldar, who actually gain utility from their sadism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
It’s pretty much every Sister of Battle novel by Black Library unless they’re being set up as the villains. Where oh they might be mean interrogating a Stormtrooper for information, or execute a corrupt cardinal and that’s about the limit of it. They’re basically written as the Amazons from Wonder Woman where some of them have a slightly ruthless persona whilst they’re saving innocent people from the monsters. They aren’t even particularly fanatical. It’s depicted as a very stoic, inward looking personal connection they have with their deity when they’re fighting Demons. BL does not write about them shooting Tau civilians or do a Fallout 4 Brotherhood where explicit attention is drawn to repugnant features. Also we aren’t talking one book BTW here this is kind of a consistent style for the Sisters across every novel about them. Either we assume they’re just letting BL do whatever they want or that’s the level of evil under discussion vaguely inferred in the art and lore on the codex. We certainly don’t read them trampling the skulls of the innocent underfoot as shown on the front cover on the codex.

This style you describe is inconsistent with the core ideas of the setting. If you want to play a good-guy faction (or as close as 40k can get), play Tau. Again, the rulebooks and codices are more core to the setting than BL works, which have inconsistent canon.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
So yeah, I don’t have a problem at all making my head canon that my army could all be like Verity and Meridya from Faith and Fire or Hammer and Anvil or pretty much any Sisters of Battle novel. It actually makes the faction better because having a hopeful and goody faction in a high stakes setting where everything seems bad makes for a good story. A much better story than everyone’s evil and we’re all screwed. I dunno. Maybe one Convent has an Elder Lyons moment and decides to prioritise saving people over posing on mounds of skulls. That’s not too much of a stretch in a big galaxy like 40k.

I mean, make it your headcanon all you want, great. The issue is if you're looking for a glimmer of hope and goodness in the setting... the Imperium is not where to look for it. Try the Eldar or Tau.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Which is why I suspect Black Library doesn’t write them as the front cover of the Codex depicts them. It’s like why I prefer the Fallout 3 Brotherhood to the one dimensional enclave lite of what they are in Fallout 4 where the game pretends it’s being morally grey to side with them. I would not have liked the Brotherhood at all if that had been my first depiction of them; I’d just steal their armour and go Minutemen. There is a very obvious appeal to making a “good” faction and I dismiss the idea you can’t have nuanced discussions about them. Take the Mandalorian and it’s depiction of the New Republic. They are still basically the Rebel Alliance, but it’s clearly got legit, become too bureaucratic and is oblivious to the threats on its borders. All valid things to discuss. To me that’s nuanced. Fallout 4s Brotherhood is basically “yeah people are obviously going to like the only faction that demands you kill your friends like Dance” and imply theyd kill a few others as well. Same with the Sisters. You could not write a story about them if they were depicted as genocidal monsters killing people of other faiths. Whilst at the same time it’s far too appealing to write them like the Amazons from Wonder Woman. GW uses the Grindark for the aesthetic not for thematic discussions in its lore, which is why there is this huge gap in the depictions. It’s very easy to handwave and ignore those lore elements suggesting otherwise.

There is an appeal to having a "good" faction, sure. The issue is that people glom on to SoB as the "good" faction because they're coded as white, female, and Christian, instead of the factions which mostly aren't as diabolical as the Imperium like the Eldar or Tau.

Also, as a fan of Fallout 1 & 2 I just think that you're missing the point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
It’s never been what makes 40k interesting. If it was then all the lore would focus on the High Lords of Terra, Planetary Governors, the Adminsitratum and the focus would be on plucky anti hero’s sticking the finger up to the system. Instead you have Space Wolves and Salamanders be some of the more popular factions. People like 40k for the ascetics and the high stakes of the conflict. If the BL wrote 40k grimdark then it would be impossible to sympathise with any character. It’s not actually very interesting to make a satire of the Soviet Union since it amounts to making patronising points that were covered in your GCSE history class. Ohh, dragons are bad because you might go crazy and burn a city down. That’s the level that sort of edgelord nihilist nonsense goes.

Salamanders and Space Wolves are some of the most rebellious entities within the framework of the Imperium. Let's not forget, though, that the Grey Knights genocided the population of Fenris, presumably in retaliation for what the Space Wolves did after the 1st Armageddon war. Any sort of honor or morality is *punished* in the Imperium.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
You aren’t forced to become a Repentia. They chose to do that. If your God is legit real that’s not irrational.

How rational are the followers of Chaos with all their weird crap, then?

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I think with them writing lore where Guilliman basically overthrows the High Lords, wants to change the Imperium for the better and making the Emperor the legit God of humanity the lore is being pushed more towards a High Fantasy take like in Age of Sigmar. This is being consciously done to make the setting more palatable especially if they’re going to be doing TV shows and stuff. I don’t have an issue with that.

I have a massive issue with that, and I think it would make the setting *less* palatable. It would, in a sense, be a fascist apologia.

Hecaton wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
The existence of repentias alone disproves any form of empathy or sanity within the sisters of battle. They are a completely bonkers religiously fanatical army. Can they be heroic in battle? Sure? Do they often sacrifice themselves in hope of martyrdom for the emperor and maybe save innocents in the process? You bet! They are still completely awful and that's why we love them, they are peak grimdark.
There are however shades of awfulness in 40k since this topic has been scratched...its never good faction versus evil faction...its evil faction versus maybe lesser evil faction.
The sisters are completely bonkers zaelots, but they are nowhere near as bad as dark eldar or an emperors children warband for example. This is, and I cannot stress this enough, what makes the setting interesting. Every 40k faction is awful by today's real life moral standards, BUT within the confines of the 40k universe there are lesser evils, which is the base of the whole conundrum.
Edits: readability and grammar

I mean, I see what you're saying, but I'd argue that the Imperium is worse than Dark Eldar, who actually gain utility from their sadism.

I have read most of your points about the imperium and I understand where you are coming from, but I think saying that the imperium is worse because the dark eldar gain utility from their sadism is not really intellectually consistent simply because the dark eldar specifically chose their sadism as their way to escape slaanesh, they had the option to chose the path similar or identical to the craftworld eldar to limit themselves and their desires through discipline. They chose their arrogance and hedonism.
Many of your points revolve around the imperium being needlessly stupid and cruel and therefore being evil. By that logic the dark eldar have to be way worse by definition, because for all it's stupidity and cruelty, there are glimpses of genuine heroism and selflessness in the imperium. You don't get that with the dark eldar, they chose their sadism out of sheer arrogance and malice. I get why you don't like the imperium, but they don't even play in the same league as the dark eldar.

As I said there are shades of evil in 40k and the dark eldar have to occupy one of the, if not the very top spot.

I think a lot of the stuff since 5e does stray into fascism apologia. It is disappointing. It is also disappointing to see it parroted by a big chunk of the fanbase.

 Da Boss wrote:
I think a lot of the stuff since 5e does stray into fascism apologia. It is disappointing. It is also disappointing to see it parroted by a big chunk of the fanbase.

How so? I mean it's a fictional universe where humanity has literal space wizards and a being so powerful that he could conquer a big part of the galaxy. There are literal demons that feast on your emotions and existential alien threats that actively try to wipe out humanity.

Ive made this point before, but one of the defining traits of fascism is that it is build upon a charismatic "tough-guy" leader figure that will empower and save a country from whatever ethnic group can best be demonized and dehumanized at the current time. Said ethnic group or foreign countries will then be branded as threats even though those claims are grossly exaggerate through propaganda and voila...you have laid the bedrock for unspeakable atrocities.

Now, the imperium obviously fits most of these traits to the letter, BUT the threats are in fact real. Now you can say that the imperium is needlessly cruel and stupid and I'd have to agree, but their paranoia and prejudice is not unfounded.

My main point is this, I do not understand how anyone could take the fiction of 40k and come to the conclusion that based on this fiction, fascism and fascist regimes throughout our history were a good idea and brought anything but misery and ruin.

I'm not saying you don't have, but have you actually met people who think that based on 40k, real life fascism is a good idea? I'm genuinely curious.

I think a point you could make is that at some point in about 5th edition the narrative switched from presenting the fascistic characteristics of the setting from a massive part of the problem to a possible solution. Matt Ward's Grey Knight Übermenschen won the whole time at everything they tried so it must work, right? Parts that were used beforehand to alleviate that notion, for example the loss of humanity or the cruelness, were downplayed at best.

Basically what Shadox says. I have not IRL met those people as far as I know, but warhammer is pretty popular with real life fascists unfortunately.

I think also that a lot of the existential threat stuff used to be presented as Imperial Propaganda, whereas later on it began to be more of an accepted fact.

The fact that the Imperium was actually wrongheaded and causing a lot of it's own problems is downplayed, and the "ends justify the means" stuff is played straight.

Having that as a fantasy is a form of apologia, imagining a world where only fascist solutions to problems would work is a kind of apologia.

I don't consider this a huge deal in the grand scheme of things and am not calling for Warhammer to be "cancelled" or whatever. I love Warhammer. But I think it mostly comes from clumsy writing and people who are fans of the material getting to write it, and wanting their faction to be the good guys. And yeah, if I was gonna put a name on the guy who epitomised that I would say it was Matt Ward, though by all accounts he gets way more than his fair share of hate online so I don't want to add to that and I don't think it was intentional on his part (or anyone's part).

As to your main point, I don't think I ever said any of that in my post. It is a mild form of fascism apologia which is unintentional in my view, but I find it disappointing.

 Da Boss wrote:
Basically what Shadox says. I have not IRL met those people as far as I know, but warhammer is pretty popular with real life fascists unfortunately.

I think also that a lot of the existential threat stuff used to be presented as Imperial Propaganda, whereas later on it began to be more of an accepted fact.

The fact that the Imperium was actually wrongheaded and causing a lot of it's own problems is downplayed, and the "ends justify the means" stuff is played straight.

Having that as a fantasy is a form of apologia, imagining a world where only fascist solutions to problems would work is a kind of apologia.

I don't consider this a huge deal in the grand scheme of things and am not calling for Warhammer to be "cancelled" or whatever. I love Warhammer. But I think it mostly comes from clumsy writing and people who are fans of the material getting to write it, and wanting their faction to be the good guys. And yeah, if I was gonna put a name on the guy who epitomised that I would say it was Matt Ward, though by all accounts he gets way more than his fair share of hate online so I don't want to add to that and I don't think it was intentional on his part (or anyone's part).

As to your main point, I don't think I ever said any of that in my post. It is a mild form of fascism apologia which is unintentional in my view, but I find it disappointing.

No no I didn't mean to say that you personally hold any of those views, sorry when I didn't manage to make that clear in my post.

Regarding the imperium causing its own problems...it is true that in earlier editions there was more focus on that, but the existential threats were also presented as fact. Its not just one or the other, but a combination of both. I still think that the 3rd edition rulebook did the best job of setting the tone of the grimdarkness of the imperium through story and artwork.

Also I have to double down on the point that fantasy where a form of fascism is presented as a solution is a form of apologia. I can only speak for myself now, but for me the imperium of man always posed an uncomfortable question: if those existential threats were real, would we also look for a strong leader immediately and devolve into fascism? Would we also not be able to do it better and survive? To me it always served as a warning. Now that is of course just my very personal opinion.

Edit: I also have to agree that some work of Matt ward in 5th ed was really suboptimal and really didn't help the overarching feel and tone of the setting...

I also think it is meant as a warning, or at least, that it started as something darkly satirical like Judge Dredd. It all comes from that 80s UK melting pot of sci fi where these themes were pretty common.

Tiberias wrote:Now you can say that the imperium is needlessly cruel and stupid and I'd have to agree, but their paranoia and prejudice is not unfounded.

Except we can clearly see how other human collectives outside the Imperium survive. Look at any human faction other than the Imperium during the Great Crusade - such as the Interex, or even things like pre-Imperial Ultramar. The Imperium isn't necessary for survival.
(I used to believe like you, that the Imperium *was* needed for survival, but I've seen enough to know that it simply isn't true.)

My main point is this, I do not understand how anyone could take the fiction of 40k and come to the conclusion that based on this fiction, fascism and fascist regimes throughout our history were a good idea and brought anything but misery and ruin.

You'd be surprised.
Young people, thrown into a setting where the humans have an excuse to blam anything that's not them and it's good because that's justified for survival? Genetic defects? Blam, mutant. Inter-species co-operation and vaguely Eastern inspiration from the T'au? Blam, commies. Eldar and Dark Eldar? Blam, pansie """women""" (of course, most models in these factions aren't actually female, but they're seen as feminine by people with these views, irrational I'm sure that seems to us). Daemonettes? Blam, sexual deviants (and oftentimes, transfolk as well).

For someone who might already be influenced to see marginalised groups in a negative way, they don't exactly struggle to map that onto 40k factions. And when the "humans" (aka, hardwired to be 'good') are out there fighting those easily-mappable groups and shouting easily memed phrases in a heroic manner? It's all too easy.

I'm not saying you don't have, but have you actually met people who think that based on 40k, real life fascism is a good idea? I'm genuinely curious.

Yes, I have, and I think we'd be naïve to say there weren't.
The kind of people who make various "purge the unclean" or "death to heretics" rhetoric, rather clearly aimed at certain demographics.

I have 2...
1) The Emperor is going to pull a "Dogma". The Golden Throne is a trap to keep him 'under control'.

BUT... It won't be a Primarch or Marine that frees him.

Because

2) A Squat warband hiding on Mars will release him as they announce the return of their race.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Tiberias wrote:Now you can say that the imperium is needlessly cruel and stupid and I'd have to agree, but their paranoia and prejudice is not unfounded.

Except we can clearly see how other human collectives outside the Imperium survive. Look at any human faction other than the Imperium during the Great Crusade - such as the Interex, or even things like pre-Imperial Ultramar. The Imperium isn't necessary for survival.
(I used to believe like you, that the Imperium *was* needed for survival, but I've seen enough to know that it simply isn't true.)

I get your point. I just have to point out a small detail, I didn't say I believed the imperium was strictly necessary to survival, just that their paranoia and prejudice is not unfounded and as I explained in my following post, it therefore poses an interesting question about fascism and actually serves as a warning to the reader. Just my take though.

As to your other points I can just say I have been lucky I guess to not have met such people, but I also only enjoy and share this hobby with some of my closest friends, so that is not as surprising.
But if a larger portion of the fanbase truly hold these views as you describe them its of course worrying. I don't know though how you go about fixing that except engaging such people and explaining to them what real life fascism and its consequences are and that 40k serves as a parody and a warning and no real life lesson are to be drawn from it.

Galaxy at the time of the great crusade was a hell of a lot safer, and that is BEFORE it was split in half by a warp rift.

As for the IRL facist movements. Without getting into politics, the modern versions we have are delusional. They have graduated beyond bias to simply seeing a different reality than a normal, healthy human. Debating what they see in 40k is pointless--they already have a demonstrated inability to determine what is real in real life, let alone something that is fictional from the start.

Hmmm. A bit handwavy there. I think it can be interesting to discuss that stuff and find it odd that people want to dismiss that so quickly.

We must remember that 40k is a british creation and the britts seem to have a bit of a fascination with fascism.

Britt writer george orwell wrote the infamous "1984", one of the most famous visions of a fascist state, it's modus operandi, mentality and goals.
"Now I will tell you the answer to my question. It is this. The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from the oligarchies of the past in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just around the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know what no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now you begin to understand me."

Honestly i don't think anyone ever summed up the truth about fascists and other control freaks quite so clearly and succinctly before or after this.

Judge dredd was meant to be a parody and a warning about fascism. One of the creators said he didn't want dredd to ever be seen as a hero and often deliberately portrayed him as what could politely be described as an hole to keep people from seeing him as a 'good guy."

Blake's 7 had the premise of rebels fighting fascism, and in the end the fascists won. (Damn will they never remake that series?)

The popular daleks are the embodiment of nazi (fascist) ideology taken to the ultimate extreme.

Semi fascists political parties keep forming in england, and after failing or being banned reorganize under different names.

So yes, it's reasonable to see 40k's imperium as a fascist state given that the fascism theme seems to be a big deal in english fiction and to a thankfully smaller extant in british society and politics.

(Yes yes i know america has some fascist groups too.)

Considering how the UK was in the 1980's when 40k and Judge Dredd were made, can you really blame us?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Considering how the UK was in the 1980's when 40k and Judge Dredd were made, can you really blame us?

No, no, not blaming you, not criticizing you, not attacking you. Just stating facts and how the relate to the issue of fascism in 40k. I confess that the 80's were before i became a bit more awakened to the world outside america so can't claim expertise on the matter of how your country was in the 80's. ( I do recall some terrorist incidents with the IRA) We had our own problems then.

But I do believe orwell's explanation of the fascist mentality does apply to a lot of the upper echelons of the imperium.

Space Marine Chapters are 100,000 strong as this is the only way to come close to representing the insane amounts of battles they fight in, often in situations that supposedly they never would be fighting. When some of the average foot soldiers that the Imperium contends with are equal to or superior to an Astartes (like a Necron Immortal for instance) I don't see how Chapters are meant to be engaging in system-wide wars and fighting numerous pitched battles that go on for hours. Surgical strikes at critical locations that last all of an hour before they are reinforced by other forces? Absolutely fine. Single companies fighting across entire systems and fighting massive meatgrinder battles? That makes no sense and yet it happens constantly. When lowly Necron Warriors are carrying a weapon that can vapourize a Marine in an instant, or a Doomsday Cannon can obliterate entire columns of Astartes armour from miles away with complete impunity how are 100 measly soldiers meant to fight the kind of battles they're often portrayed as fighting? Ultramar is strong and rich, and Ultramarines can call on their second founding chapters for help, but not even the entire chapter, less than a 1000 soldiers, somehow managed to hold off an entire Tyranid Hive Fleet. That stretches the bounds of believability, even for this setting. Worse yet, they supposedly suffered horrendous casualties but within a century are able to undertake major military operations, including sending half of the chapter off to Vigilus on the other side of the galaxy.

When you balloon the numbers up into the hundreds of thousands it at least makes a little more sense.

That the Primarchs of 2 & 11 were engineered with the Pariah gene as their Legions were meant to be for fighting Chaos, they didn't get scattered with the others as Chaos didn't "see" them, and grew up on Terra and slowly figured out Daddy E's insanity as he wasn't able to psyker them, being the petty git he was he manipulated the others into murdering them with the few remaining being donated to the Assasins and Sister of Silence ( because they was lady marines obviously )

In regards to 40k and facism/authoritarian/generally brutal government; it is important to note the Imperium is a failing state. The authoritarian rule is barely holding things together--at best.

1984 (the book) has a great premise, insightful commentary, and a huge amount of relevance to developed human society. And yet butchers the delivery with a fictional state so ridiculous it makes the Imperium seem plausible by comparison.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
That the Primarchs of 2 & 11 were engineered with the Pariah gene as their Legions were meant to be for fighting Chaos, they didn't get scattered with the others as Chaos didn't "see" them, and grew up on Terra and slowly figured out Daddy E's insanity as he wasn't able to psyker them, being the petty git he was he manipulated the others into murdering them with the few remaining being donated to the Assasins and Sister of Silence ( because they was lady marines obviously )

Holy crap that is a super cool theory.

Da emprah screwed guilleman over and stole his body, leaving G in his body in the throne. That's why G hasn't tried to reverse the ignorance and darkness of the imperium and has only made himself supreme lord of the imperium, making the HLoT his butt boys.

Each chapter has 1000 marines, not counting scouts.
Most battles involving marines are minor conflicts and arenot recorded in the background we read, that's why they can be veterans of so many battles without injury or death. Only the really big events get reported, those are the events where marine losses actually occur.

At any given time there are 1,000,000 planets in the imperium but they're constantly gaining new planets and losing old ones. The number of human inhabited planets far exceeds 1,000,000.

Chaos/warp is fuelled by emotion . The galaxy is so full of hated and killing that Khorne is the most powerful chaos God.

All the recent events, guilliman, the rift, primaris, cawl, are part of a separate setting. Very similar but not the same. Lots of overlap between the two.

Old marine models ARE anatomically correct, for genetically enhanced super soldiers. Hand/head/weapon upsizing notwithstanding. The cuirass part of power armour comes most of the way down the torso.

Certain Crusade era uplifts aside, space marines are asexual because geneseed is implanted before puberty and overrides the normal puberty process.

Some guard regiments understand camouflage, but getting it from the munitorum is really hard.

I'm not actually much into the respective fluff but I'd really like it if the Dark Angels were actually the traitors of the HH and Cypher and the Fallen the loyalists. Not saying DA still ARE traitors but that their big secret is that the chapter actually turned - and then turned back later on. I know HH made it pretty clear that it's not the case but I'd like that. And it would actually be a big secret to keep, not what they're actually trying to hide right now in official fluff. (Wow, there are Fallen Dark Angels, just like every other legion had, what a secret!)

Speaking of the "1000 Marine Myth", here is a blast from the past that is still relevant today.

https://maws40k.blogspot.com/2011/08/1000-marines.html

TL;DR A full strength chapter theoretically has anywhere from 1500-2000 fully functional Astartes when you factor in support roles, vehicle crews, dreadnoughts and command structure, along with an undetermined number of Scouts and menial staff.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Speaking of the "1000 Marine Myth", here is a blast from the past that is still relevant today.

https://maws40k.blogspot.com/2011/08/1000-marines.html

TL;DR A full strength chapter theoretically has anywhere from 1500-2000 fully functional Astartes when you factor in support roles, vehicle crews, dreadnoughts and command structure, along with an undetermined number of Scouts and menial staff.

My interpretation has always been +/- 1000 Marine "grunts" actively deployed. So not support staff, not trainers, not even tankers/aviators, not guys on leave, not guys in convalescence, not even guys who are stationed on a planet that isn't a combat zone currently. I'd even say Chapter Masters and the other command structures don't count, So probably closer to 15-20k. Not as many as the Imperium will need, sure, but it is fantasy.

The new codexes make it clear that pilots and drivers are already counted, usually from the 6th and 7th companies or as Techmarines. They are not additional marines strictly for that purpose.

jareddm wrote:
The new codexes make it clear that pilots and drivers are already counted, usually from the 6th and 7th companies or as Techmarines. They are not additional marines strictly for that purpose.

Which is insane and why I have my head cannon.

Even doubling chapter size is woefully insufficient to address the issue. Hell even my personal x10 is insufficient but I think a more appropriate 50k or 100k marines per chapter is too optimistic, whereas I can convince myself to hope marines will one day be ret-conned to 10k per chapter.

I think the 1k narrative worked ok when there were only, really, infantry Marines with a handful of of transport vehicles, or the occasional transport-with-heavy-weapons. With the explosion of different roles they now have models for there is no way a Marine chapter can be 1000 people if you include pilots, tankers, Medics, Librarians, Tech-Marines, Chaplains, various Blade Guard/other elites, Dreadnoughts, Centurions, heck the Scouts would need to be much bigger than the other companies.

In just a fully mechanized company you're down from 100 fighting Marines to just 90 with 10 taxi drivers. That's 10% of your company.

Throw in a Thunder hawk drop ship each has a crew of 2, but can carry 2 Rhino, so another 10 Marines to transport them, from 90 to 80. Soon you'll end up with zero fighting Marines

Khorne was not awakened during the Middle Ages. It is ludicrous that the actions of the denizens of one primitive planet could have brought to life such a powerful cosmic force. Instead, I believe that during the Middle Ages, all of the warfare and destruction caused Khorne to 'level up' and then to turn his gaze towards humanity like he hadn't before.

The daemons in the warp and the chaos gods aren’t actually sentient beings with motivation and desires, they are forces of nature caused by the emotions of the materium. There is no more bargaining with chaos gods than there is with a hurricane.

Whatever consciousness is perceived is a reflection of the person interacting with it, our only fears are the ones we bring with us. The warp and its daemons are poorly understood, but they can be harnessed but almost always with terrifying consequences, not through a diabolical sentience, rather than just be because the warp creatures will follow their nature.

This doesn’t make the warp less dangerous, if anything it is even more dangerous, and the false belief that it can be bargained with makes it even more so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The daemons in the warp and the chaos gods aren’t actually sentient beings with motivation and desires, they are forces of nature caused by the emotions of the materium. There is no more bargaining with chaos gods than there is with a hurricane.

Whatever consciousness is perceived is a reflection of the person interacting with it, our only fears are the ones we bring with us. The warp and its daemons are poorly understood, but they can be harnessed but almost always with terrifying consequences, not through a diabolical sentience, rather than just be because the warp creatures will follow their nature.

This doesn’t make the warp less dangerous, if anything it is even more dangerous, and the false belief that it can be bargained with makes it even more so.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Khorne was not awakened during the Middle Ages. It is ludicrous that the actions of the denizens of one primitive planet could have brought to life such a powerful cosmic force. Instead, I believe that during the Middle Ages, all of the warfare and destruction caused Khorne to 'level up' and then to turn his gaze towards humanity like he hadn't before.

The way I see it, whenever one of the Big Four gets disproportionally more powerful, his presence is felt more strongly in real space throughout the galaxy. Whever there has been an age of plagues and disease on Earth, there is also one on many other planets becaue it's the consequence of Nurgle's increased influence. Whenever there is massive conflict, it shows that Khorne is currently the strongest etc. These time periods can either last millenia or less then a heartbeat, because time means nothing in the Warp.

I like to lean into “well meaning, but utterly insane” aspects of the Chaos Gods as sort of presented in Realm of Chaos.

The powers themselves aren’t actually malevolent as we understand it. Khorne craves bloodshed because he comprehends nothing else. Nurgle wants to see life flourish, but whether that life is sentient matters not - just that it thrives, and so on.

The powers simply cannot perceive anyone being opposed to their actions, or being ungrateful in any way.

The gifts they bestow? They’re also all equal. Because whilst Bob might get something beneficial (Iron hard skin, Daemon weapon etc), Poor Davey might wind up with a Duck’s Bum instead of eyes. Because the bestowing God is so utterly insane, it can’t differentiate between beneficial and detrimental. All that matters is that though that were pleasing are rewarded.

Not to be crass, not least because it’s on both sides of my family, but consider someone in the grips of later stage dementia doling out gifts. You might get an out of date jar of jam. You might get a jumper from the 60’s. Or you might get a bar of solid gold. All gifts are equal in their eyes, as they’ve lost the ability to reason in that way.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Khorne was not awakened during the Middle Ages. It is ludicrous that the actions of the denizens of one primitive planet could have brought to life such a powerful cosmic force. Instead, I believe that during the Middle Ages, all of the warfare and destruction caused Khorne to 'level up' and then to turn his gaze towards humanity like he hadn't before.

The Middle Ages thing is a bit of a misreading of RoC tbh. Nurgle was apparently awakened during the Black Death, but Tzeentch was when the first civilisations started (so even Earth centric that’s thousands of years BC) and Khorne even earlier.

As Esmer said, I am pretty sure its the god awakening causing the historical events not the historical events causing the god to awaken.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
As Esmer said, I am pretty sure its the god awakening causing the historical events not the historical events causing the god to awaken.

Probably yeah, but the Middle Ages thing is a personal bugbear...

It's a misreading of RoC, which I have.

Khorne awoke during the first organized warfare between people. Tzeentch with the rise of more complex civilization and societies, circa Bronze Age I think, which saw the rise of a whole new scale of intrigue and plotting. Nurgle was said to have fully awoken by the time of the Black Death in the Middle Ages, so strictly speaking it doesn't say the Black Death was the trigger for waking.

Nowhere is it said that these 3 Chaos gods had to have been vast and powerful from the moment they woke. They were the parochial gods of a small planet-bound species. They would have only grown fat and powerful with the spread of humanity across the stars and the growth in population.

We see that it is a function of both population and individual soul strength that seems to determine the power of the gods. That is why Gork and Mork are so powerful, because the Orks are so widespread across the galaxy, and virtually indestructible as a species.

Slaanesh rocketed to the big tier in one go, through consumption of its parent species in one go like a person winning the jackpot in a lottery, whereas Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle grew over time. That explains somewhat Slaanesh's parvenu status among the Chaos gods. Slaanesh is the outsider to the club because Slaanesh arose from the Eldar, and essentially "pantheon jumped" from the Eldar to humanity as its main source of power now since the Eldar are too few now to be a stable power base for Slaanesh. Sort of like how an Egyptian goddess like Isis gained popularity among Romans

I think the growth in power came first, then the awakening. Slaanesh didn't wake up weak then gain strength, Slaanesh was full god by the time of awakening. It was the sheer immensity of accumulated emotional baggage that allowed for the Chaos Gods to awaken as distinct entities, and it was the War in Heaven that really kickstarted the whole thing.

That is in terms of causality. Chronologically they could intersect with the material galaxy in any which way, even at different times in different places. For humanity Nurgle may have awoken during the black death, another millennia entirely for some alien species, and yet both simultaneous in the warp. At least as we would comprehend it.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think the growth in power came first, then the awakening. Slaanesh didn't wake up weak then gain strength, Slaanesh was full god by the time of awakening. It was the sheer immensity of accumulated emotional baggage that allowed for the Chaos Gods to awaken as distinct entities, and it was the War in Heaven that really kickstarted the whole thing.

That is in terms of causality. Chronologically they could intersect with the material galaxy in any which way, even at different times in different places. For humanity Nurgle may have awoken during the black death, another millennia entirely for some alien species, and yet both simultaneous in the warp. At least as we would comprehend it.

The existence of minor Chaos gods shows that power is not a pre-condition for awakening. Slaanesh was a giant slumbering nascent entity, through accumulating Eldar souls that would have otherwise reincarnated. Its awakening was simultaneously its consumption of the vast majority of the remaining Eldar. That's how it arose and was among the top tier of gods already, as the pre-Fall Eldar were both numerous and each soul was individually powerful.

One of the Tau stories, shows the Tau on board a ship of the 4th expansion stuck in the warp discovering their auxiliary subjects may be creating inadvertently creating a new warp god, that of the Greater Good, and this warp god however weak seems to at least be aware enough to help the Tau out by safely guiding them out of the warp. Though a seemingly benign god (at least to the Tau), they still regard it as an abomination.

Hmm, I think we would need to have a better definition of exactly what "awakening" means to really get into specifics.

Which is to say I don't totally agree, but don't so much disagree either.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Hmm, I think we would need to have a better definition of exactly what "awakening" means to really get into specifics.

Which is to say I don't totally agree, but don't so much disagree either.

The 2nd edition Eldar Codex descibes how increasingly decadent Eldar souls didn't reincarnate and instead started sticking together and over time forming a giant gestalt (i.e. implying there was nothing there before). This entity's dreams further served to promote decadence among the Eldar and creating a sort of feedback loop, as this would increase the flow of decadent souls to the slumbering Slaanesh. Eventually a critical point was reached and Slaanesh awoke, and it is described that its first divine breath was also the instantaneous draining of nearly the entire Eldar race.

In the same way, Ynnead is described as sleeping, only stirring just enough to empower Yvraine.

A slumbering warp god seems to be thus incapable of conscious action, though their unconscious dreams or power may induce others to act in ways that align with the god's ideals/stance.

That doesn't illuminate the specifics of what 'awakening' is supposed to mean for Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle though.

The Chaos gods were always there, mankind isn't important enough to influence the cosmos that much.

I take that comment about the births of the other 3 gods as the human reflections of the universal emotions of rage, hope and despair.

Every sapient species generates these basic emotions, but they're all different colours.

Khorne is the human flavour of rage, khaine the Eldar flavour of rage.

So when it says khorne awoke, it means the human reflection of rage arose amidst the vortex of rage in the warp. Over the next 40000 years it rose to become the predominant face of rage.

When the Eldar controlled the galaxy, their emotions were dominant and weren't as destructive as humanity until the formation of slannesh.

At that point and the death of Eldar gods, what little grasp they had left on the power of the warp was broken and the 3 human reflections became the main powers of rage, despair and hope.

Slannesh has begun taking on more human traits over the last 10k years as the Same thing is happening, except it had an entire population of eldar at it's core sustaining it.

Esmer wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Khorne was not awakened during the Middle Ages. It is ludicrous that the actions of the denizens of one primitive planet could have brought to life such a powerful cosmic force. Instead, I believe that during the Middle Ages, all of the warfare and destruction caused Khorne to 'level up' and then to turn his gaze towards humanity like he hadn't before.

The way I see it, whenever one of the Big Four gets disproportionally more powerful, his presence is felt more strongly in real space throughout the galaxy. Whever there has been an age of plagues and disease on Earth, there is also one on many other planets becaue it's the consequence of Nurgle's increased influence. Whenever there is massive conflict, it shows that Khorne is currently the strongest etc. These time periods can either last millenia or less then a heartbeat, because time means nothing in the Warp.

That's an interesting way of seeing it. I have actually thought about it like that, that when a particular god is in the ascendancy, their aspects are reflected in the real world.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Khorne was not awakened during the Middle Ages. It is ludicrous that the actions of the denizens of one primitive planet could have brought to life such a powerful cosmic force. Instead, I believe that during the Middle Ages, all of the warfare and destruction caused Khorne to 'level up' and then to turn his gaze towards humanity like he hadn't before.

The Middle Ages thing is a bit of a misreading of RoC tbh. Nurgle was apparently awakened during the Black Death, but Tzeentch was when the first civilisations started (so even Earth centric that’s thousands of years BC) and Khorne even earlier.

I hadn't known that, but that makes sense. The daemon sword Drachnyen was created by the first murder, and could in fact be something of a proto Chaos god.

As to Khorne, I personally love to see a CSM warband that only fights armed combatants in seemingly honorable combat, hardly ever killing civilians, and have them be juxtaposed against groups like the World Eaters and the Hounds of Abaddon.

Korgin and the World Reavers (from the RPGs) are a good example:


When the warlord arrives over a world, he offers one chance to surrender unconditionally. Should the cowering populace accept, Korgin honours their surrender. Though a devotee to the Blood God, he believes only the skulls of worthy adversaries should be sent to the throne of his master. Those who surrender are certainly not that, and he and his band merely plunder valuables, supplies, and slaves to fill their hold and leave. However, Korgin makes it a point to take something of great value from the world he plunders, whether an ancient artefact, a beloved leader as a slave, or even a famous document held in high regard. He does this in hopes of goading that world to fight the next time he arrives.

CorwinB wrote:
My headcannon (probably inspired from playing Epic often in my youth) is that the whole "SM Chapters are 1000 men strong" is just imperial propaganda. All Chapters are much, much more numerous than that, and all the stories about the recruitement rates, the supposed near-invincibility of Marines... are Imperial propaganda designed to keep Marines an inspiration to lower-end Imperial troops such as IG (and also to keep would-be rebels in their place).

I like it!

Most of the "Marines are so OP a handful could take over a planet" is just Imperial propaganda to overhype them. Yes they're incredibly powerful but not at the level they're made out to be.

Similar to the guy above, there are far more than 1000 Chapters of 1000 Marines.

Lasguns are actually more powerful than the memes make them out to be. I've always pictured them to be as powerful as today's standard equipment such as the M16, SA80 and AK47. The lack of power in the memes comes from what they have to go up against.

"Impossibly rare relics" such as Terminator Armour are actually much, much more common than let on, and their reverence comes more from what the armour represents than it's actual quantity.

The II and XI Primarchs never existed. The numbers were deliberately left vacant and the Emperor created a psychic imprint on the remaining Primarchs' minds to keep them in line (albeit unsuccessfully).

One I heard from a GW staff member which I don't particularly believe, but I thought was pretty good: Sanguinius never helped the Emperor defeat Horus. He turned heretic on the bridge of the Vengeful Spirit and the Emperor had to slay them both. The Black Rage are visions of this betrayal that drives the BA to seek redemption.

Oh dam THAT would be a twist!

 Valkyrie wrote:

One I heard from a GW staff member which I don't particularly believe, but I thought was pretty good: Sanguinius never helped the Emperor defeat Horus. He turned heretic on the bridge of the Vengeful Spirit and the Emperor had to slay them both. The Black Rage are visions of this betrayal that drives the BA to seek redemption.

So GW teased that the final duel in the Siege of Terra series would "not quite happen as currently understood", implying some kind of a twist.

My suspicion of this twist was that Horus would kill the Emperor, Oll would kill Horus using some new found powers, and then take the Emperor's place, deliberately using his powers to setup a cult of the Emperor to eventually resurrect him in the warp.

But now I'm torn between my idea and this one as being the "twist".

Arcanis161 wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:

One I heard from a GW staff member which I don't particularly believe, but I thought was pretty good: Sanguinius never helped the Emperor defeat Horus. He turned heretic on the bridge of the Vengeful Spirit and the Emperor had to slay them both. The Black Rage are visions of this betrayal that drives the BA to seek redemption.

So GW teased that the final duel in the Siege of Terra series would "not quite happen as currently understood", implying some kind of a twist.

My suspicion of this twist was that Horus would kill the Emperor, Oll would kill Horus using some new found powers, and then take the Emperor's place, deliberately using his powers to setup a cult of the Emperor to eventually resurrect him in the warp.

But now I'm torn between my idea and this one as being the "twist".

I have a feeling we may get some kind of 'just as planned' trope for the Emperor at the end. I'd like to be wrong though.

Ugh that would be awful.

My personal headcanon is that the Imperial Guard acts more or less like a modern military.
Even regiments that have a reputation for "human waves" aren't charging forwards like it's the Napoleonic era or Enemy at the Gates, they're still using actual fieldcraft. Rather like how the Red Army actually fought.

1000 marines represents the approximate number of marines in the main companies of a chapter. Vehicle crews are included in the 1000, but command and initiates are not.
Marines ARE incredibly rare in the fluff and will almost never be committed to front line combat, they're used for decisive, small scale, raids behind enemy lines.
Like modern day special forces, but even special-er.
Most humans would never even encounter an Astartes.
I believe in the Dark Heresy RPG, a discarded astartes bolt shell casing was a rare and prized trinket.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
My personal headcanon is that the Imperial Guard acts more or less like a modern military.
Even regiments that have a reputation for "human waves" aren't charging forwards like it's the Napoleonic era or Enemy at the Gates, they're still using actual fieldcraft. Rather like how the Red Army actually fought.

Eh, with the plethora of different Guard regiments and planets they've drawn from I wouldn't put it past some Regiments to have poor tactics. I do think it'll be more along the lines of a Vietnam, possibly Korea or even WWII style of warfare as opposed to WWI Western Front static lines and over-the-top-into-machinegun-fire assaults.

I've always thought the IG is 99% competent and decently led, with sufficient fieldcraft and expertise to be effective, but they're fighting super Xeno or even Chaos warriors many many times. About the only time they're on par is fighting Chaos cultists or sepratists/uncontacted. Most other cases they do have to stop the gaps in the disparity of forces with numbers. Even super agile, lightning fast reflex Eldar can't kill all the guardsmen before one eventually puts a lasbolt through their chest. Even Orks who can soak up lasbolts by the dozen can't withstand another dozen. Tyranids? Well unfortunately they use the same tactic and any losses you or they incur come back again tomorrow as respawned troops.

I agree, but I view "poor tactics" to be realistically poor tactics, rather than some hollywood caricature that they're often portrayed as.

I remember reading once that a Mordian general once had his men dressed in full parade uniforms just march up to an enemy fortress in full parade lines to take it "damned be the casualties".
It's just so ridiculous I mentally replace it.

Maybe that general is a political appointee that has never left his desk the next solar system over, and may well have *ordered* that. But actual commanders in the field would interpret that as "pack your parade uniform chaps, and we'll get changed and ready to greet the general after we've stormed the fortress properly".
Maybe the fortress itself had already been reduced to rubble and scouting forces had already confirmed it was clear. They then marched into the rubble in full parade style and the chroniclers just left out the part that no one brick was on top of another in order to make a more heroic story.

Because when you have men standing shoulder to shoulder one machine gun or artillery shell absolutely can kill them all!

 kirotheavenger wrote:

I remember reading once that a Mordian general once had his men dressed in full parade uniforms just march up to an enemy fortress in full parade lines to take it "damned be the casualties".
It's just so ridiculous I mentally replace it.
l!

I agree. While we can (mostly) agree that the Napoleonic era style of blocks of infantry marching into place and presenting arms and firing is unlikely I do tend to imagine such stories along the lines of Bernard Cornwall's Sharpe's Fortress where they attacked Gawilghur.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_Gawilghur

While it wasn't quite "full dress uniform and march into their guns" I do see how a rather bad commander could have written something like that in his memoirs.

I think it is possible that there are horrendously incompetent commanders from certain worlds or cultures in the Imperium, after all it is absolutely huge and pretty much prizes ignorance and closed mindedness as great virtues.

But like others here I think those people are in the vast minority, and when the crap really hits the windmill I think they would quickly find themselves removed from command by a Commissar. That said, the Guard are already hamstrung by the conservatism of the Imperium with regard to new ideas, so in a sense all of them are using worse tactics than they might be if the Imperium was a better place.

I think natural selection would do wonders for making guard commanders competent.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think natural selection would do wonders for making guard commanders competent.

Only works up to a point for the field commanders, not so much for the commanders far from the front lines and with powerful connections.

Take the FW Imperial Armour Vraks campaign for example. The guy in charge kept his HQ on an entirely different planet in a different star system, and spent his time at social functions or in administrative/bureaucratic meetings. He failed when the original timetable could not longer be met, but the only punishment we hear about is him being transferred elsewhere, protected by his family connections. Even though it was I think said it was to fight against the Tyranids, chances are his posting would have been another cushy office job.

Such commanders could have failure after failure and still survive. That can be how a certain level of incompetence survives in the Guard.

That's a very good point, I imagine that sort of situation would play out roughly the same way it did in the age of aristocracy.
That officer may be drummed out of the military or sent to some cushy but relatively unimportant posting, such as overseeing recruitment or something.

Iracundus wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think natural selection would do wonders for making guard commanders competent.

Only works up to a point for the field commanders, not so much for the commanders far from the front lines and with powerful connections.

Take the FW Imperial Armour Vraks campaign for example. The guy in charge kept his HQ on an entirely different planet in a different star system, and spent his time at social functions or in administrative/bureaucratic meetings. He failed when the original timetable could not longer be met, but the only punishment we hear about is him being transferred elsewhere, protected by his family connections. Even though it was I think said it was to fight against the Tyranids, chances are his posting would have been another cushy office job.

Such commanders could have failure after failure and still survive. That can be how a certain level of incompetence survives in the Guard.

Aw c'mon, that's an unreasonable assumption! It would never happen in real life, especially not with modern day levels of communication...

 Valkyrie wrote:
One I heard from a GW staff member which I don't particularly believe, but I thought was pretty good: Sanguinius never helped the Emperor defeat Horus. He turned heretic on the bridge of the Vengeful Spirit and the Emperor had to slay them both. The Black Rage are visions of this betrayal that drives the BA to seek redemption.

Mine is more that the Emperor saw a future coming out of the Vengeful Spirit where he died, and Sanguinius took his place on the throne, and the Imperium was much better off than it was today... but he chose the future where he himself got to cling to life, and Sanguinius was dead, and the Imperium is horrible, because he viewed his sons as expendable tools whose only purpose was to serve him.

There is a secret department in the administratum called the departmento minotaurum that exists to continually supply tjr Minotaurs chapter.

They supply a never ending stream of almost pre-made astartes (recruited, kidnapped or stolen from elsewhere), mind wiped marines from other chapters that can then be reprogrammed as minotaurs (for the lulz). All the minotsurs need to do is some hypno indoctrination and theure good.

The departmento minotaurum is also responsible for maintaining the excellent logistics chain for the Minotaurs and keeping them.fully stocked with all arms, armour, fuel, ammo, latest tech (heres the primaris stuff!) Etc.

A third function is to sanitise and often, quietly erase and cover any and all references to the actions and activities of the minotaurs in the official and unofficial records.

I also like to think asterion moloc is an AI or an app, co training a reinforced personality and collective memories that is downloaded and activated via the 'extensive cybernetics' that are put into whoever dons the mantle of the warrior in question, to the extent ita almost a bastard version of a phoenix warrior.