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It doesn't really even matter whether the Imperium is actually right that it needs to do what it does to survive. In a world that bleak, the only moral choice would be to accept eventual extinction and behave morally in the meantime.

But it is undoubtedly also not true. Humanity survived before the Emperor and the Imperium, and there's a fair amount of lore around the edges suggesting it not only survived, but thrived.

There are no primarchs, the pirmarchs are a lie of myth. The emperor isn't superhuman, just a lucky/talented psychic warrior.

The emperor had 12 talented generals. Two of them were lost to unknown reasons, then half rebelled against the emperor.

After the end of the Heresy, tales ballooned of their deeds, like the tales of Charlemange, Robin Hood and King Arthur, making them seem far more powerful and greater than they truly were.

That of course, means ignoring from the Guilliman model forward, but I'm fine with that. He's some sort of bioscientific abomination created by Cawl, at best. Not really the original primarch.

In my personal headcanon, one underlying core idea of the 40K setting is summed up in the old adage:

"Only the insane are strong enough to prosper

and only those who prosper

truly judge what is sane"

ie. its a galaxy "gone mad". Notions of humanity or christian morals have been thrown out the door millennias ago. Pretty much everyone (except T'au) have resorted to their primal instincts, its all survival mode and the rule of the strongest. This is also where the medieval throwbacks come from, it was arguably a period of time when democracy was nonexistent and the weak were always on the mercy of the strong. Stuff was plenty chaotic, and the poorest civilians suffered most during those times.

It's almost as pointless to discuss a topic such as "good/evil" in 40K as it is in trying to project these definitons to wild animals living on earth.

The IoM relies on physical strenght for power, the mechanicus relies on knowledge for theirs. Inquisition is an interesting institution as it combines both powers. The Ecclesiarchy is the glue that prevents the Imperium societies from falling apart into total barbarism. this is also what Christian religion did in Europe back in the day; It soothed the common man and kept malcontent in check, prevented the poor from eating the rich, enduring the hell on earth with a humble smile on their face, knowing they would be ultimately rewarded in the afterlife (yeah right - suckers!).

Ecclesiarchy is also ruthless af, just as it was during Crusades in Europe. If SoB are carrying out His will, they will be just as cruel and ruthless toward those decreed unclean by their religion. Some BL book writers trying to tell stories about "Saint Mariahs" will not convince me otherwise since I will never respect BL rubbish as "canon". On an individual level, sure, not everyone is as ruthless as another, there has always been exceptional individuals throughout history, but in 40K their valour and the hope they bring is but a tiny speck of light in the blanket of the night, the amount of which is never going to be enough for anyone even to read a single poem with.

Buut, since extrapolating such a setting over the whole of humanity would be severely limiting scifi-RPG-storytelling wise, in my headcanon the Imperium does not control all human inhabited worlds. Which is why the RT lore rules!

Hecaton wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Because they don’t. Like ever. The Black Library and their lore does not portray them killing civilians. There’s some 3rd ed Witchhunters lore I can recall where it’s wrapped in the whole innocence proves nothing. Etc etc. Aliens? Not really. It never comes up. What you have are books where they ally and make common cause with alien species. They depict the Sisters in pretty favourable light throughout. If the intent was to demonise the faction, especially in matter of fact lore books they would just do that. Show don’t tell and they aren’t even telling.

All of this is contradicted by the core 40k lore, which agrees with me and disagrees with you.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
In a Sisters novel you have a Sister character who is friends with two mutant characters who help her with her armour. Natural mutation is not an issue and they aren’t shown going out into the sewers to kill mutant civilians. If it’s a Genecult like in the Mason book they’re just thralls to the Hivemind who can’t be saved or reasoned with. If they’re only ever shown killing unambiguous monsters then I am not seeing this really. Take the Brotherhood of Steel in Fallout 4. They immediately start calling synth and ghoul characters who are your companions and friends abominations. Bethesda creates a clear conflict and shows them being in the wrong. If GW wanted to depict the Sisters in a similar light they could but they don’t.

Again, the core 40k lore portrays them as genocidal theofascists with a good fashion sense. If a Black Library book contradicts the information in the core book, and the information that goes back to Rogue Trader about them, imma go with the core book.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Okay, don’t know why are you bringing insults into this. Foregoing the aforementioned Brotherhood of Steel who I clocked within twenty seconds of meeting them again in Boston. Daughters of Khaine. Very obviously depicted as evil despite being beautiful. Read their tie in novel and they keep slaves, they murder innocents, betray their friends, human sacrifices and have no regard for normal people. That’s how GW writes a faction they want to be evil. You’re beginning with the assumption they’re being subtle if they write them as noble warrior heroes fighting clear cut monsters.

Daughters of Khaine are not coded as Christian, with Fleur de Lys iconography and so on.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Clearly I have to break down for you my previous post and it’s tongue in cheek nature. We’re discussing head canon. Meaning I am fully aware GW has an edgelord brand and for everything to be grimdark. The Codex tells us they’re a dark faction the moment you look at the front cover where these dominatrixs in black are walking over a field of skulls on fire. Even if they don’t engage with those themes at all and it may as well be power rangers. Which is why theres this huge gap between the codex depicting the faction as horrific grimdark and you read Faith and Fire where the Hospitaller character is this nice compassionate girl mourning for the death of her Sister who wants to save everyone.

I mean if you want that as your headcanon that's fine, but it breaks with the setting pretty hard. Again, genocidal child murderers who justify said brutal child murdering as good and holy in their religion.

It’s pretty much every Sister of Battle novel by Black Library unless they’re being set up as the villains. Where oh they might be mean interrogating a Stormtrooper for information, or execute a corrupt cardinal and that’s about the limit of it. They’re basically written as the Amazons from Wonder Woman where some of them have a slightly ruthless persona whilst they’re saving innocent people from the monsters. They aren’t even particularly fanatical. It’s depicted as a very stoic, inward looking personal connection they have with their deity when they’re fighting Demons. BL does not write about them shooting Tau civilians or do a Fallout 4 Brotherhood where explicit attention is drawn to repugnant features. Also we aren’t talking one book BTW here this is kind of a consistent style for the Sisters across every novel about them. Either we assume they’re just letting BL do whatever they want or that’s the level of evil under discussion vaguely inferred in the art and lore on the codex. We certainly don’t read them trampling the skulls of the innocent underfoot as shown on the front cover on the codex.

So yeah, I don’t have a problem at all making my head canon that my army could all be like Verity and Meridya from Faith and Fire or Hammer and Anvil or pretty much any Sisters of Battle novel. It actually makes the faction better because having a hopeful and goody faction in a high stakes setting where everything seems bad makes for a good story. A much better story than everyone’s evil and we’re all screwed. I dunno. Maybe one Convent has an Elder Lyons moment and decides to prioritise saving people over posing on mounds of skulls. That’s not too much of a stretch in a big galaxy like 40k.

Which is why I suspect Black Library doesn’t write them as the front cover of the Codex depicts them. It’s like why I prefer the Fallout 3 Brotherhood to the one dimensional enclave lite of what they are in Fallout 4 where the game pretends it’s being morally grey to side with them. I would not have liked the Brotherhood at all if that had been my first depiction of them; I’d just steal their armour and go Minutemen. There is a very obvious appeal to making a “good” faction and I dismiss the idea you can’t have nuanced discussions about them. Take the Mandalorian and it’s depiction of the New Republic. They are still basically the Rebel Alliance, but it’s clearly got legit, become too bureaucratic and is oblivious to the threats on its borders. All valid things to discuss. To me that’s nuanced. Fallout 4s Brotherhood is basically “yeah people are obviously going to like the only faction that demands you kill your friends like Dance” and imply theyd kill a few others as well. Same with the Sisters. You could not write a story about them if they were depicted as genocidal monsters killing people of other faiths. Whilst at the same time it’s far too appealing to write them like the Amazons from Wonder Woman. GW uses the Grindark for the aesthetic not for thematic discussions in its lore, which is why there is this huge gap in the depictions. It’s very easy to handwave and ignore those lore elements suggesting otherwise.

The existence of repentias alone disproves any form of empathy or sanity within the sisters of battle. They are a completely bonkers religiously fanatical army. Can they be heroic in battle? Sure? Do they often sacrifice themselves in hope of martyrdom for the emperor and maybe save innocents in the process? You bet! They are still completely awful and that's why we love them, they are peak grimdark.
There are however shades of awfulness in 40k since this topic has been scratched...its never good faction versus evil faction...its evil faction versus maybe lesser evil faction.
The sisters are completely bonkers zaelots, but they are nowhere near as bad as dark eldar or an emperors children warband for example. This is, and I cannot stress this enough, what makes the setting interesting. Every 40k faction is awful by today's real life moral standards, BUT within the confines of the 40k universe there are lesser evils, which is the base of the whole conundrum.
Edits: readability and grammar

Tiberias wrote:
The existence of repentias alone disproves any form of empathy or sanity within the sisters of battle. They are a completely bonkers religiously fanatical army. Can they be heroic in battle? Sure? Do they often sacrifice themselves in hope of martyrdom for the emperor and maybe save innocents in the process? You bet! They are still completely awful and that's why we love them, they are peak grimdark.
There are however shades of awfulness in 40k since this topic has been scratched...its never good faction versus evil faction...its evil faction versus maybe lesser evil faction.
The sisters are completely bonkers zaelots, but they are nowhere near as bad as dark eldar or an emperors children warband for example. This is, and I cannot stress this enough, what makes the setting interesting. Every 40k faction is awful by today's real life moral standards, BUT within the confines of the 40k universe there are lesser evils, which is the base of the whole conundrum.
Edits: readability and grammar

It’s never been what makes 40k interesting. If it was then all the lore would focus on the High Lords of Terra, Planetary Governors, the Adminsitratum and the focus would be on plucky anti hero’s sticking the finger up to the system. Instead you have Space Wolves and Salamanders be some of the more popular factions. People like 40k for the ascetics and the high stakes of the conflict. If the BL wrote 40k grimdark then it would be impossible to sympathise with any character. It’s not actually very interesting to make a satire of the Soviet Union since it amounts to making patronising points that were covered in your GCSE history class. Ohh, dragons are bad because you might go crazy and burn a city down. That’s the level that sort of edgelord nihilist nonsense goes.

You aren’t forced to become a Repentia. They chose to do that. If your God is legit real that’s not irrational.

I think with them writing lore where Guilliman basically overthrows the High Lords, wants to change the Imperium for the better and making the Emperor the legit God of humanity the lore is being pushed more towards a High Fantasy take like in Age of Sigmar. This is being consciously done to make the setting more palatable especially if they’re going to be doing TV shows and stuff. I don’t have an issue with that.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
The existence of repentias alone disproves any form of empathy or sanity within the sisters of battle. They are a completely bonkers religiously fanatical army. Can they be heroic in battle? Sure? Do they often sacrifice themselves in hope of martyrdom for the emperor and maybe save innocents in the process? You bet! They are still completely awful and that's why we love them, they are peak grimdark.
There are however shades of awfulness in 40k since this topic has been scratched...its never good faction versus evil faction...its evil faction versus maybe lesser evil faction.
The sisters are completely bonkers zaelots, but they are nowhere near as bad as dark eldar or an emperors children warband for example. This is, and I cannot stress this enough, what makes the setting interesting. Every 40k faction is awful by today's real life moral standards, BUT within the confines of the 40k universe there are lesser evils, which is the base of the whole conundrum.
Edits: readability and grammar

It’s never been what makes 40k interesting. If it was then all the lore would focus on the High Lords of Terra, Planetary Governors, the Adminsitratum and the focus would be on plucky anti hero’s sticking the finger up to the system. Instead you have Space Wolves and Salamanders be some of the more popular factions. People like 40k for the ascetics and the high stakes of the conflict. If the BL wrote 40k grimdark then it would be impossible to sympathise with any character. It’s not actually very interesting to make a satire of the Soviet Union since it amounts to making patronising points that were covered in your GCSE history class. Ohh, dragons are bad because you might go crazy and burn a city down. That’s the level that sort of edgelord nihilist nonsense goes.

You aren’t forced to become a Repentia. They chose to do that. If your God is legit real that’s not irrational.

I think with them writing lore where Guilliman basically overthrows the High Lords, wants to change the Imperium for the better and making the Emperor the legit God of humanity the lore is being pushed more towards a High Fantasy take like in Age of Sigmar. This is being consciously done to make the setting more palatable especially if they’re going to be doing TV shows and stuff. I don’t have an issue with that.

If they do that, and go overboard, they lose what initially made 40k interesting.

Also your point about repentias is actually worrysome to me, if you are stuck within a cult or religion that incentivises you to mutilate yourself and go die horribly in combat for not upholding some vow purity or some BS, that is not rational, that's evil. Also if you don't accept the point regarding repentias, there are still penitent engines....so yeah, sisters of battle are flying rodent gak insane.

It would also suck if they made the emperor the de facto god of humanity. They absolutely have to leave some sort of ambiguity about his character. They should have done the same with primarchs. They work better as distant figures of legend and myth. But it is even more crucial with the emperor in my opinion. You cannot properly flesh out such a character without running into plotholes, especially when you have multiple authors tackling his persona without an overarching vision of what he should be.

Edit: on topic, my headcanon is that the emperor was not able to keep the web way gate beath the golden throne closed all the way all the time for the last ten thousand years. So the adeptus custodes had to fight small to medium demon incursions within the heart of the imperium itself on different occasions, which is an additional reason why the custodes have been absent during crucial times in imperial history like the age of apostasy.

My personal headcanon.

There is no Planet 'Omnicide'

'Murderfang' is just a manifestation of the wulfen instability in the Space Wolf gene seed. This appears most often, but still rarely, with those brothers interred in Dreadnoughts. Those dreadnoughts that succumb are equipped with CC weapons and then sent with/to packs who are in the most dire situations.

The 'Omnicide' saga regarding the finding of Murderfang was created to hide this instability from outsiders/ the inquisition.

yukishiro1 wrote:It doesn't really even matter whether the Imperium is actually right that it needs to do what it does to survive. In a world that bleak, the only moral choice would be to accept eventual extinction and behave morally in the meantime.

But it is undoubtedly also not true. Humanity survived before the Emperor and the Imperium, and there's a fair amount of lore around the edges suggesting it not only survived, but thrived.

Agreed - the Imperium *does not have to do what they do*, full stop.

Tiberias wrote:
The existence of repentias alone disproves any form of empathy or sanity within the sisters of battle. They are a completely bonkers religiously fanatical army. Can they be heroic in battle? Sure? Do they often sacrifice themselves in hope of martyrdom for the emperor and maybe save innocents in the process? You bet! They are still completely awful and that's why we love them, they are peak grimdark.
There are however shades of awfulness in 40k since this topic has been scratched...its never good faction versus evil faction...its evil faction versus maybe lesser evil faction.
The sisters are completely bonkers zaelots, but they are nowhere near as bad as dark eldar or an emperors children warband for example. This is, and I cannot stress this enough, what makes the setting interesting. Every 40k faction is awful by today's real life moral standards, BUT within the confines of the 40k universe there are lesser evils, which is the base of the whole conundrum.
Edits: readability and grammar

I mean, I see what you're saying, but I'd argue that the Imperium is worse than Dark Eldar, who actually gain utility from their sadism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
It’s pretty much every Sister of Battle novel by Black Library unless they’re being set up as the villains. Where oh they might be mean interrogating a Stormtrooper for information, or execute a corrupt cardinal and that’s about the limit of it. They’re basically written as the Amazons from Wonder Woman where some of them have a slightly ruthless persona whilst they’re saving innocent people from the monsters. They aren’t even particularly fanatical. It’s depicted as a very stoic, inward looking personal connection they have with their deity when they’re fighting Demons. BL does not write about them shooting Tau civilians or do a Fallout 4 Brotherhood where explicit attention is drawn to repugnant features. Also we aren’t talking one book BTW here this is kind of a consistent style for the Sisters across every novel about them. Either we assume they’re just letting BL do whatever they want or that’s the level of evil under discussion vaguely inferred in the art and lore on the codex. We certainly don’t read them trampling the skulls of the innocent underfoot as shown on the front cover on the codex.

This style you describe is inconsistent with the core ideas of the setting. If you want to play a good-guy faction (or as close as 40k can get), play Tau. Again, the rulebooks and codices are more core to the setting than BL works, which have inconsistent canon.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
So yeah, I don’t have a problem at all making my head canon that my army could all be like Verity and Meridya from Faith and Fire or Hammer and Anvil or pretty much any Sisters of Battle novel. It actually makes the faction better because having a hopeful and goody faction in a high stakes setting where everything seems bad makes for a good story. A much better story than everyone’s evil and we’re all screwed. I dunno. Maybe one Convent has an Elder Lyons moment and decides to prioritise saving people over posing on mounds of skulls. That’s not too much of a stretch in a big galaxy like 40k.

I mean, make it your headcanon all you want, great. The issue is if you're looking for a glimmer of hope and goodness in the setting... the Imperium is not where to look for it. Try the Eldar or Tau.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Which is why I suspect Black Library doesn’t write them as the front cover of the Codex depicts them. It’s like why I prefer the Fallout 3 Brotherhood to the one dimensional enclave lite of what they are in Fallout 4 where the game pretends it’s being morally grey to side with them. I would not have liked the Brotherhood at all if that had been my first depiction of them; I’d just steal their armour and go Minutemen. There is a very obvious appeal to making a “good” faction and I dismiss the idea you can’t have nuanced discussions about them. Take the Mandalorian and it’s depiction of the New Republic. They are still basically the Rebel Alliance, but it’s clearly got legit, become too bureaucratic and is oblivious to the threats on its borders. All valid things to discuss. To me that’s nuanced. Fallout 4s Brotherhood is basically “yeah people are obviously going to like the only faction that demands you kill your friends like Dance” and imply theyd kill a few others as well. Same with the Sisters. You could not write a story about them if they were depicted as genocidal monsters killing people of other faiths. Whilst at the same time it’s far too appealing to write them like the Amazons from Wonder Woman. GW uses the Grindark for the aesthetic not for thematic discussions in its lore, which is why there is this huge gap in the depictions. It’s very easy to handwave and ignore those lore elements suggesting otherwise.

There is an appeal to having a "good" faction, sure. The issue is that people glom on to SoB as the "good" faction because they're coded as white, female, and Christian, instead of the factions which mostly aren't as diabolical as the Imperium like the Eldar or Tau.

Also, as a fan of Fallout 1 & 2 I just think that you're missing the point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
It’s never been what makes 40k interesting. If it was then all the lore would focus on the High Lords of Terra, Planetary Governors, the Adminsitratum and the focus would be on plucky anti hero’s sticking the finger up to the system. Instead you have Space Wolves and Salamanders be some of the more popular factions. People like 40k for the ascetics and the high stakes of the conflict. If the BL wrote 40k grimdark then it would be impossible to sympathise with any character. It’s not actually very interesting to make a satire of the Soviet Union since it amounts to making patronising points that were covered in your GCSE history class. Ohh, dragons are bad because you might go crazy and burn a city down. That’s the level that sort of edgelord nihilist nonsense goes.

Salamanders and Space Wolves are some of the most rebellious entities within the framework of the Imperium. Let's not forget, though, that the Grey Knights genocided the population of Fenris, presumably in retaliation for what the Space Wolves did after the 1st Armageddon war. Any sort of honor or morality is *punished* in the Imperium.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
You aren’t forced to become a Repentia. They chose to do that. If your God is legit real that’s not irrational.

How rational are the followers of Chaos with all their weird crap, then?

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I think with them writing lore where Guilliman basically overthrows the High Lords, wants to change the Imperium for the better and making the Emperor the legit God of humanity the lore is being pushed more towards a High Fantasy take like in Age of Sigmar. This is being consciously done to make the setting more palatable especially if they’re going to be doing TV shows and stuff. I don’t have an issue with that.

I have a massive issue with that, and I think it would make the setting *less* palatable. It would, in a sense, be a fascist apologia.

Hecaton wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
The existence of repentias alone disproves any form of empathy or sanity within the sisters of battle. They are a completely bonkers religiously fanatical army. Can they be heroic in battle? Sure? Do they often sacrifice themselves in hope of martyrdom for the emperor and maybe save innocents in the process? You bet! They are still completely awful and that's why we love them, they are peak grimdark.
There are however shades of awfulness in 40k since this topic has been scratched...its never good faction versus evil faction...its evil faction versus maybe lesser evil faction.
The sisters are completely bonkers zaelots, but they are nowhere near as bad as dark eldar or an emperors children warband for example. This is, and I cannot stress this enough, what makes the setting interesting. Every 40k faction is awful by today's real life moral standards, BUT within the confines of the 40k universe there are lesser evils, which is the base of the whole conundrum.
Edits: readability and grammar

I mean, I see what you're saying, but I'd argue that the Imperium is worse than Dark Eldar, who actually gain utility from their sadism.

I have read most of your points about the imperium and I understand where you are coming from, but I think saying that the imperium is worse because the dark eldar gain utility from their sadism is not really intellectually consistent simply because the dark eldar specifically chose their sadism as their way to escape slaanesh, they had the option to chose the path similar or identical to the craftworld eldar to limit themselves and their desires through discipline. They chose their arrogance and hedonism.
Many of your points revolve around the imperium being needlessly stupid and cruel and therefore being evil. By that logic the dark eldar have to be way worse by definition, because for all it's stupidity and cruelty, there are glimpses of genuine heroism and selflessness in the imperium. You don't get that with the dark eldar, they chose their sadism out of sheer arrogance and malice. I get why you don't like the imperium, but they don't even play in the same league as the dark eldar.

As I said there are shades of evil in 40k and the dark eldar have to occupy one of the, if not the very top spot.

I think a lot of the stuff since 5e does stray into fascism apologia. It is disappointing. It is also disappointing to see it parroted by a big chunk of the fanbase.

 Da Boss wrote:
I think a lot of the stuff since 5e does stray into fascism apologia. It is disappointing. It is also disappointing to see it parroted by a big chunk of the fanbase.

How so? I mean it's a fictional universe where humanity has literal space wizards and a being so powerful that he could conquer a big part of the galaxy. There are literal demons that feast on your emotions and existential alien threats that actively try to wipe out humanity.

Ive made this point before, but one of the defining traits of fascism is that it is build upon a charismatic "tough-guy" leader figure that will empower and save a country from whatever ethnic group can best be demonized and dehumanized at the current time. Said ethnic group or foreign countries will then be branded as threats even though those claims are grossly exaggerate through propaganda and voila...you have laid the bedrock for unspeakable atrocities.

Now, the imperium obviously fits most of these traits to the letter, BUT the threats are in fact real. Now you can say that the imperium is needlessly cruel and stupid and I'd have to agree, but their paranoia and prejudice is not unfounded.

My main point is this, I do not understand how anyone could take the fiction of 40k and come to the conclusion that based on this fiction, fascism and fascist regimes throughout our history were a good idea and brought anything but misery and ruin.

I'm not saying you don't have, but have you actually met people who think that based on 40k, real life fascism is a good idea? I'm genuinely curious.

I think a point you could make is that at some point in about 5th edition the narrative switched from presenting the fascistic characteristics of the setting from a massive part of the problem to a possible solution. Matt Ward's Grey Knight Übermenschen won the whole time at everything they tried so it must work, right? Parts that were used beforehand to alleviate that notion, for example the loss of humanity or the cruelness, were downplayed at best.

Basically what Shadox says. I have not IRL met those people as far as I know, but warhammer is pretty popular with real life fascists unfortunately.

I think also that a lot of the existential threat stuff used to be presented as Imperial Propaganda, whereas later on it began to be more of an accepted fact.

The fact that the Imperium was actually wrongheaded and causing a lot of it's own problems is downplayed, and the "ends justify the means" stuff is played straight.

Having that as a fantasy is a form of apologia, imagining a world where only fascist solutions to problems would work is a kind of apologia.

I don't consider this a huge deal in the grand scheme of things and am not calling for Warhammer to be "cancelled" or whatever. I love Warhammer. But I think it mostly comes from clumsy writing and people who are fans of the material getting to write it, and wanting their faction to be the good guys. And yeah, if I was gonna put a name on the guy who epitomised that I would say it was Matt Ward, though by all accounts he gets way more than his fair share of hate online so I don't want to add to that and I don't think it was intentional on his part (or anyone's part).

As to your main point, I don't think I ever said any of that in my post. It is a mild form of fascism apologia which is unintentional in my view, but I find it disappointing.

 Da Boss wrote:
Basically what Shadox says. I have not IRL met those people as far as I know, but warhammer is pretty popular with real life fascists unfortunately.

I think also that a lot of the existential threat stuff used to be presented as Imperial Propaganda, whereas later on it began to be more of an accepted fact.

The fact that the Imperium was actually wrongheaded and causing a lot of it's own problems is downplayed, and the "ends justify the means" stuff is played straight.

Having that as a fantasy is a form of apologia, imagining a world where only fascist solutions to problems would work is a kind of apologia.

I don't consider this a huge deal in the grand scheme of things and am not calling for Warhammer to be "cancelled" or whatever. I love Warhammer. But I think it mostly comes from clumsy writing and people who are fans of the material getting to write it, and wanting their faction to be the good guys. And yeah, if I was gonna put a name on the guy who epitomised that I would say it was Matt Ward, though by all accounts he gets way more than his fair share of hate online so I don't want to add to that and I don't think it was intentional on his part (or anyone's part).

As to your main point, I don't think I ever said any of that in my post. It is a mild form of fascism apologia which is unintentional in my view, but I find it disappointing.

No no I didn't mean to say that you personally hold any of those views, sorry when I didn't manage to make that clear in my post.

Regarding the imperium causing its own problems...it is true that in earlier editions there was more focus on that, but the existential threats were also presented as fact. Its not just one or the other, but a combination of both. I still think that the 3rd edition rulebook did the best job of setting the tone of the grimdarkness of the imperium through story and artwork.

Also I have to double down on the point that fantasy where a form of fascism is presented as a solution is a form of apologia. I can only speak for myself now, but for me the imperium of man always posed an uncomfortable question: if those existential threats were real, would we also look for a strong leader immediately and devolve into fascism? Would we also not be able to do it better and survive? To me it always served as a warning. Now that is of course just my very personal opinion.

Edit: I also have to agree that some work of Matt ward in 5th ed was really suboptimal and really didn't help the overarching feel and tone of the setting...

I also think it is meant as a warning, or at least, that it started as something darkly satirical like Judge Dredd. It all comes from that 80s UK melting pot of sci fi where these themes were pretty common.

Tiberias wrote:Now you can say that the imperium is needlessly cruel and stupid and I'd have to agree, but their paranoia and prejudice is not unfounded.

Except we can clearly see how other human collectives outside the Imperium survive. Look at any human faction other than the Imperium during the Great Crusade - such as the Interex, or even things like pre-Imperial Ultramar. The Imperium isn't necessary for survival.
(I used to believe like you, that the Imperium *was* needed for survival, but I've seen enough to know that it simply isn't true.)

My main point is this, I do not understand how anyone could take the fiction of 40k and come to the conclusion that based on this fiction, fascism and fascist regimes throughout our history were a good idea and brought anything but misery and ruin.

You'd be surprised.
Young people, thrown into a setting where the humans have an excuse to blam anything that's not them and it's good because that's justified for survival? Genetic defects? Blam, mutant. Inter-species co-operation and vaguely Eastern inspiration from the T'au? Blam, commies. Eldar and Dark Eldar? Blam, pansie """women""" (of course, most models in these factions aren't actually female, but they're seen as feminine by people with these views, irrational I'm sure that seems to us). Daemonettes? Blam, sexual deviants (and oftentimes, transfolk as well).

For someone who might already be influenced to see marginalised groups in a negative way, they don't exactly struggle to map that onto 40k factions. And when the "humans" (aka, hardwired to be 'good') are out there fighting those easily-mappable groups and shouting easily memed phrases in a heroic manner? It's all too easy.

I'm not saying you don't have, but have you actually met people who think that based on 40k, real life fascism is a good idea? I'm genuinely curious.

Yes, I have, and I think we'd be naïve to say there weren't.
The kind of people who make various "purge the unclean" or "death to heretics" rhetoric, rather clearly aimed at certain demographics.

I have 2...
1) The Emperor is going to pull a "Dogma". The Golden Throne is a trap to keep him 'under control'.

BUT... It won't be a Primarch or Marine that frees him.

Because

2) A Squat warband hiding on Mars will release him as they announce the return of their race.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Tiberias wrote:Now you can say that the imperium is needlessly cruel and stupid and I'd have to agree, but their paranoia and prejudice is not unfounded.

Except we can clearly see how other human collectives outside the Imperium survive. Look at any human faction other than the Imperium during the Great Crusade - such as the Interex, or even things like pre-Imperial Ultramar. The Imperium isn't necessary for survival.
(I used to believe like you, that the Imperium *was* needed for survival, but I've seen enough to know that it simply isn't true.)

I get your point. I just have to point out a small detail, I didn't say I believed the imperium was strictly necessary to survival, just that their paranoia and prejudice is not unfounded and as I explained in my following post, it therefore poses an interesting question about fascism and actually serves as a warning to the reader. Just my take though.

As to your other points I can just say I have been lucky I guess to not have met such people, but I also only enjoy and share this hobby with some of my closest friends, so that is not as surprising.
But if a larger portion of the fanbase truly hold these views as you describe them its of course worrying. I don't know though how you go about fixing that except engaging such people and explaining to them what real life fascism and its consequences are and that 40k serves as a parody and a warning and no real life lesson are to be drawn from it.

Galaxy at the time of the great crusade was a hell of a lot safer, and that is BEFORE it was split in half by a warp rift.

As for the IRL facist movements. Without getting into politics, the modern versions we have are delusional. They have graduated beyond bias to simply seeing a different reality than a normal, healthy human. Debating what they see in 40k is pointless--they already have a demonstrated inability to determine what is real in real life, let alone something that is fictional from the start.

Hmmm. A bit handwavy there. I think it can be interesting to discuss that stuff and find it odd that people want to dismiss that so quickly.

We must remember that 40k is a british creation and the britts seem to have a bit of a fascination with fascism.

Britt writer george orwell wrote the infamous "1984", one of the most famous visions of a fascist state, it's modus operandi, mentality and goals.
"Now I will tell you the answer to my question. It is this. The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from the oligarchies of the past in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just around the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know what no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now you begin to understand me."

Honestly i don't think anyone ever summed up the truth about fascists and other control freaks quite so clearly and succinctly before or after this.

Judge dredd was meant to be a parody and a warning about fascism. One of the creators said he didn't want dredd to ever be seen as a hero and often deliberately portrayed him as what could politely be described as an hole to keep people from seeing him as a 'good guy."

Blake's 7 had the premise of rebels fighting fascism, and in the end the fascists won. (Damn will they never remake that series?)

The popular daleks are the embodiment of nazi (fascist) ideology taken to the ultimate extreme.

Semi fascists political parties keep forming in england, and after failing or being banned reorganize under different names.

So yes, it's reasonable to see 40k's imperium as a fascist state given that the fascism theme seems to be a big deal in english fiction and to a thankfully smaller extant in british society and politics.

(Yes yes i know america has some fascist groups too.)

Considering how the UK was in the 1980's when 40k and Judge Dredd were made, can you really blame us?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Considering how the UK was in the 1980's when 40k and Judge Dredd were made, can you really blame us?

No, no, not blaming you, not criticizing you, not attacking you. Just stating facts and how the relate to the issue of fascism in 40k. I confess that the 80's were before i became a bit more awakened to the world outside america so can't claim expertise on the matter of how your country was in the 80's. ( I do recall some terrorist incidents with the IRA) We had our own problems then.

But I do believe orwell's explanation of the fascist mentality does apply to a lot of the upper echelons of the imperium.

Space Marine Chapters are 100,000 strong as this is the only way to come close to representing the insane amounts of battles they fight in, often in situations that supposedly they never would be fighting. When some of the average foot soldiers that the Imperium contends with are equal to or superior to an Astartes (like a Necron Immortal for instance) I don't see how Chapters are meant to be engaging in system-wide wars and fighting numerous pitched battles that go on for hours. Surgical strikes at critical locations that last all of an hour before they are reinforced by other forces? Absolutely fine. Single companies fighting across entire systems and fighting massive meatgrinder battles? That makes no sense and yet it happens constantly. When lowly Necron Warriors are carrying a weapon that can vapourize a Marine in an instant, or a Doomsday Cannon can obliterate entire columns of Astartes armour from miles away with complete impunity how are 100 measly soldiers meant to fight the kind of battles they're often portrayed as fighting? Ultramar is strong and rich, and Ultramarines can call on their second founding chapters for help, but not even the entire chapter, less than a 1000 soldiers, somehow managed to hold off an entire Tyranid Hive Fleet. That stretches the bounds of believability, even for this setting. Worse yet, they supposedly suffered horrendous casualties but within a century are able to undertake major military operations, including sending half of the chapter off to Vigilus on the other side of the galaxy.

When you balloon the numbers up into the hundreds of thousands it at least makes a little more sense.

That the Primarchs of 2 & 11 were engineered with the Pariah gene as their Legions were meant to be for fighting Chaos, they didn't get scattered with the others as Chaos didn't "see" them, and grew up on Terra and slowly figured out Daddy E's insanity as he wasn't able to psyker them, being the petty git he was he manipulated the others into murdering them with the few remaining being donated to the Assasins and Sister of Silence ( because they was lady marines obviously )

In regards to 40k and facism/authoritarian/generally brutal government; it is important to note the Imperium is a failing state. The authoritarian rule is barely holding things together--at best.

1984 (the book) has a great premise, insightful commentary, and a huge amount of relevance to developed human society. And yet butchers the delivery with a fictional state so ridiculous it makes the Imperium seem plausible by comparison.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
That the Primarchs of 2 & 11 were engineered with the Pariah gene as their Legions were meant to be for fighting Chaos, they didn't get scattered with the others as Chaos didn't "see" them, and grew up on Terra and slowly figured out Daddy E's insanity as he wasn't able to psyker them, being the petty git he was he manipulated the others into murdering them with the few remaining being donated to the Assasins and Sister of Silence ( because they was lady marines obviously )

Holy crap that is a super cool theory.

Da emprah screwed guilleman over and stole his body, leaving G in his body in the throne. That's why G hasn't tried to reverse the ignorance and darkness of the imperium and has only made himself supreme lord of the imperium, making the HLoT his butt boys.

Each chapter has 1000 marines, not counting scouts.
Most battles involving marines are minor conflicts and arenot recorded in the background we read, that's why they can be veterans of so many battles without injury or death. Only the really big events get reported, those are the events where marine losses actually occur.

At any given time there are 1,000,000 planets in the imperium but they're constantly gaining new planets and losing old ones. The number of human inhabited planets far exceeds 1,000,000.

Chaos/warp is fuelled by emotion . The galaxy is so full of hated and killing that Khorne is the most powerful chaos God.

All the recent events, guilliman, the rift, primaris, cawl, are part of a separate setting. Very similar but not the same. Lots of overlap between the two.

Old marine models ARE anatomically correct, for genetically enhanced super soldiers. Hand/head/weapon upsizing notwithstanding. The cuirass part of power armour comes most of the way down the torso.

Certain Crusade era uplifts aside, space marines are asexual because geneseed is implanted before puberty and overrides the normal puberty process.

Some guard regiments understand camouflage, but getting it from the munitorum is really hard.