Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hecaton wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

For example they say in the trailer that their mission to purge the alien, the mutant and the heretic. Sounds very grimdark. Aliens who want to exterminate and conquer humanity except for those we can reason with like the Eldar.

Sororitas want to kill peaceful aliens too. They want to kill their civilians. They want to kill their children, and don't give a gak about their horrified cries of pain, and won't relent until they are dead. They (in particular, since they're so fanatical), and all other members of the Imperium, are ignorant monsters who have turned their backs on all that is worthwhile in humanity.

You can make anything monstrous if you put that much spin on it.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You can make anything monstrous if you put that much spin on it.

Nah. The Imperium is pretty damn evil in 40k.

Hecaton wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I like fungal Orks as well, and I like that their whole mentality is focused on fighting. It is really difficult as a human to truly put yourself in the mindset of something inherently inhuman, but GW has done so with Orks and done it well. They also have background for which their state makes perfect sense. Orks are perhaps the only race I don't have any problems with fluff wise.

What's your issue with Eldar?

Slaanesh is the god of excess, taking anything to an extreme. It doesn't matter what it is. But the path system of Asuryani is basically 'focus on this one thing to the exclusion of everything else to avoid Slaanesh'. I know that is a vast simplification and I think GW has done a good job bending that bit of fluff in a way that it works, but the mismatch between the core idea and its purpose still bugs me.

Hecaton wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You can make anything monstrous if you put that much spin on it.

Nah. The Imperium is pretty damn evil in 40k.

The Imperium is "evil" based on the current moral standards imposed by the current western world's relative thinking on the issues of morals.

In universe, everything the Imperium does is, by their logic, justifiable because the alternative is the annihilation of the human species by Xenos, both material and immaterial.

If wiping out 2 quadrillion innocents would prevent the planet from possibly turning into a Chaos infested hell-hole later down the line, thus weakening the Imperium further and contributing to it's already slow decline, why wouldn't they? 2 quadrillion lives is a water molecule, in a drop, in a bucket, in an ocean, compared to the Imperium at large.

Killing them is also FAR kinder than what would happen if Chaos took over.

Wow, didn't take this thread long to reach ignition point.

Anyway, a headcannon i had was that the old ones looked at the eldar and orks and realized they'd fethed the barking toad twice by creating races in a complete state with culture, language, belif systems, etc.

So they decided to see if the thnird time was the charm and created a third race, but in this case they just initiated an ecosystem and coded it to possibly produce a sentient species and let it evolve on it's own.

So they smacked a rather unimpressive planet with an asteroid to reset it's ecosystem, dropped bio bombs on it to seed it with their planed ecosystem and decided to come back someday to see what it produced.

Of course the planet was later named terra, and the species they let 'grow wild' was humanity, the wildflowers as opposed to the hothouse plant eldar and orks who were totally designed.

Hecaton wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

For example they say in the trailer that their mission to purge the alien, the mutant and the heretic. Sounds very grimdark. Aliens who want to exterminate and conquer humanity except for those we can reason with like the Eldar.

Sororitas want to kill peaceful aliens too. They want to kill their civilians. They want to kill their children, and don't give a gak about their horrified cries of pain, and won't relent until they are dead. They (in particular, since they're so fanatical), and all other members of the Imperium, are ignorant monsters who have turned their backs on all that is worthwhile in humanity.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Mutants, meaning only those warped by Chaos and not the likes of Ogyre, navigators, ratlings (in faith and fury book one of the Sisters keeps a voidborn mutant as a servant), and heretics meaning entirely the forces of Chaos whereas any human creed or theology is considered per the Codex to be worshipping the Emperor. They aren’t actually intolerant when you consider what Chaos is and what the alien empires do to humanity on a daily basis.

No, they're incredibly intolerant. By "mutation" they mean "physical deformity" and the most recent fluff on the matter says that 1 in 1000 mutants is kept alive, the rest are killed. The ones who are kept alive are mostly Beastmen and other mutants that are useful for the Imperium's murder machine. So if you were in the Imperium and had a kid who was born with a cleft palette or intersex or whatever, a Sororitas would kill your infant child, and if you tried to stop them they'd kill you, too, probably torturing you slowly to make a point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I like fungal Orks as well, and I like that their whole mentality is focused on fighting. It is really difficult as a human to truly put yourself in the mindset of something inherently inhuman, but GW has done so with Orks and done it well. They also have background for which their state makes perfect sense. Orks are perhaps the only race I don't have any problems with fluff wise.

What's your issue with Eldar?

Because they don’t. Like ever. The Black Library and their lore does not portray them killing civilians. There’s some 3rd ed Witchhunters lore I can recall where it’s wrapped in the whole innocence proves nothing. Etc etc. Aliens? Not really. It never comes up. What you have are books where they ally and make common cause with alien species. They depict the Sisters in pretty favourable light throughout. If the intent was to demonise the faction, especially in matter of fact lore books they would just do that. Show don’t tell and they aren’t even telling.

In a Sisters novel you have a Sister character who is friends with two mutant characters who help her with her armour. Natural mutation is not an issue and they aren’t shown going out into the sewers to kill mutant civilians. If it’s a Genecult like in the Mason book they’re just thralls to the Hivemind who can’t be saved or reasoned with. If they’re only ever shown killing unambiguous monsters then I am not seeing this really. Take the Brotherhood of Steel in Fallout 4. They immediately start calling synth and ghoul characters who are your companions and friends abominations. Bethesda creates a clear conflict and shows them being in the wrong. If GW wanted to depict the Sisters in a similar light they could but they don’t.

Okay, don’t know why are you bringing insults into this. Foregoing the aforementioned Brotherhood of Steel who I clocked within twenty seconds of meeting them again in Boston. Daughters of Khaine. Very obviously depicted as evil despite being beautiful. Read their tie in novel and they keep slaves, they murder innocents, betray their friends, human sacrifices and have no regard for normal people. That’s how GW writes a faction they want to be evil. You’re beginning with the assumption they’re being subtle if they write them as noble warrior heroes fighting clear cut monsters.

Clearly I have to break down for you my previous post and it’s tongue in cheek nature. We’re discussing head canon. Meaning I am fully aware GW has an edgelord brand and for everything to be grimdark. The Codex tells us they’re a dark faction the moment you look at the front cover where these dominatrixs in black are walking over a field of skulls on fire. Even if they don’t engage with those themes at all and it may as well be power rangers. Which is why theres this huge gap between the codex depicting the faction as horrific grimdark and you read Faith and Fire where the Hospitaller character is this nice compassionate girl mourning for the death of her Sister who wants to save everyone.

How does that work out for her?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Slaanesh is the god of excess, taking anything to an extreme. It doesn't matter what it is. But the path system of Asuryani is basically 'focus on this one thing to the exclusion of everything else to avoid Slaanesh'. I know that is a vast simplification and I think GW has done a good job bending that bit of fluff in a way that it works, but the mismatch between the core idea and its purpose still bugs me.

So, to rebut this point a little. The Paths don't exist to allow an Eldar to obsess over one role/job/aspect. It's intended to STOP them from doing that. They focus on a single topic for a while, then are supposed to switch paths to avoid the obsession.

The ones who succumb to the obsession are the Exarchs, and both the Exarchs and the rest of the Craftworld know they have chosen a path of damnation in doing so.

Bobby G was one of the traitor Primarchs. Rather than reveal his hand and sully his Legion he simply utilized positioning to "delay" his forces for the main battle of Terra. This had the benefit of being able to augment Horus' forces had he succeeded, or to quietly seize power had he not. The assassination by Fulgrim was a simple act if revenge for that betrayal. Knowing nothing of the treason, the Ultramarines have carried on with his perceived memory and spread their geneseed to 2/3 of the standing Marine forces. Upon his return, he has enlisted Cawl to utilize the Primaris program to slip his geneseed into other chapters. Soon, he will have all Marines linked to his will. Soon, he will strike...

A little wishlisting, yes. I already have some Chaos Marines painted in Ultramarines colors with Ultramarines insignias.


Now my serious headcanon is that Cortez isn't dead or captured by Dark Eldar currently.

I wake up from a weird dream where I am an oil magnate in Texas and find Carmen Electra taking a shower in my bathroom.

My real headcannon is that the four chaos gods are not all that their cracked up to be and that there are more than a few rogue chapters out there, that have sworn off the emperor for a totally different god from afore mentioned five deities or became atheist's. One being my home made chapter. I may add others as I think on them.

The Emperor was an incompetent bastard who screwed everything up by rewarding unquestioning loyalty over initiative. He's also been dead for ages now and the whole Cult of the Emperor is just a big con - but one that is actually preserving the Imperium from the Chaos Gods, because it's humanity's faith in the Emperor, not the actual Emperor himself, that has power. Basically, humans are similar to orks in that their collective belief creates a God called The Emperor that protects them, even though he doesn't really exist any more, and was actually a dick back when he did exist.

Also, Orks are the sole utopian faction in 40k. They're the only ones without angst, and they are only kept primitive by all the angst of the other factions keeping them down. If the Orks ever became dominant, they would naturally advance into the ideal utopian society, with freedom and happiness for all.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The Imperium is "evil" based on the current moral standards imposed by the current western world's relative thinking on the issues of morals.

In universe, everything the Imperium does is, by their logic, justifiable because the alternative is the annihilation of the human species by Xenos, both material and immaterial.

We, the reader, aren't part of the Imperium and if you think what the Imperium does is justifiable from an outside perspective please never vote or reproduce.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If wiping out 2 quadrillion innocents would prevent the planet from possibly turning into a Chaos infested hell-hole later down the line, thus weakening the Imperium further and contributing to it's already slow decline, why wouldn't they? 2 quadrillion lives is a water molecule, in a drop, in a bucket, in an ocean, compared to the Imperium at large.

Yes, the Imperium is both stupid and evil, we've established this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Killing them is also FAR kinder than what would happen if Chaos took over.

Chaos is not omnicidal. Total crapshoot, but Chaos is *at worst* as bad as the Imperium, and *at best* better.

Emps being a complete dick isn't headcannon


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Killing them is also FAR kinder than what would happen if Chaos took over.

Chaos is not omnicidal. Total crapshoot, but Chaos is *at worst* as bad as the Imperium, and *at best* better.

You really don't know Chaos fluff very well if that's your conclusion.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Because they don’t. Like ever. The Black Library and their lore does not portray them killing civilians. There’s some 3rd ed Witchhunters lore I can recall where it’s wrapped in the whole innocence proves nothing. Etc etc. Aliens? Not really. It never comes up. What you have are books where they ally and make common cause with alien species. They depict the Sisters in pretty favourable light throughout. If the intent was to demonise the faction, especially in matter of fact lore books they would just do that. Show don’t tell and they aren’t even telling.

All of this is contradicted by the core 40k lore, which agrees with me and disagrees with you.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
In a Sisters novel you have a Sister character who is friends with two mutant characters who help her with her armour. Natural mutation is not an issue and they aren’t shown going out into the sewers to kill mutant civilians. If it’s a Genecult like in the Mason book they’re just thralls to the Hivemind who can’t be saved or reasoned with. If they’re only ever shown killing unambiguous monsters then I am not seeing this really. Take the Brotherhood of Steel in Fallout 4. They immediately start calling synth and ghoul characters who are your companions and friends abominations. Bethesda creates a clear conflict and shows them being in the wrong. If GW wanted to depict the Sisters in a similar light they could but they don’t.

Again, the core 40k lore portrays them as genocidal theofascists with a good fashion sense. If a Black Library book contradicts the information in the core book, and the information that goes back to Rogue Trader about them, imma go with the core book.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Okay, don’t know why are you bringing insults into this. Foregoing the aforementioned Brotherhood of Steel who I clocked within twenty seconds of meeting them again in Boston. Daughters of Khaine. Very obviously depicted as evil despite being beautiful. Read their tie in novel and they keep slaves, they murder innocents, betray their friends, human sacrifices and have no regard for normal people. That’s how GW writes a faction they want to be evil. You’re beginning with the assumption they’re being subtle if they write them as noble warrior heroes fighting clear cut monsters.

Daughters of Khaine are not coded as Christian, with Fleur de Lys iconography and so on.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Clearly I have to break down for you my previous post and it’s tongue in cheek nature. We’re discussing head canon. Meaning I am fully aware GW has an edgelord brand and for everything to be grimdark. The Codex tells us they’re a dark faction the moment you look at the front cover where these dominatrixs in black are walking over a field of skulls on fire. Even if they don’t engage with those themes at all and it may as well be power rangers. Which is why theres this huge gap between the codex depicting the faction as horrific grimdark and you read Faith and Fire where the Hospitaller character is this nice compassionate girl mourning for the death of her Sister who wants to save everyone.

I mean if you want that as your headcanon that's fine, but it breaks with the setting pretty hard. Again, genocidal child murderers who justify said brutal child murdering as good and holy in their religion.

Hecaton wrote:
We, the reader, aren't part of the Imperium and if you think what the Imperium does is justifiable from an outside perspective please never vote or reproduce.

Do you need me to get you some Tylenol? I'm just worried you might have thrown out your back, what with all those bales of straw you're stacking.

Unless you've somehow proven that "morals" are somehow an objective, fundamental property of the fabric of the universe?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Chaos is not omnicidal. Total crapshoot, but Chaos is *at worst* as bad as the Imperium, and *at best* better.

You really don't know Chaos fluff very well if that's your conclusion.

Hecaton wrote:
Daughters of Khaine are not coded as Christian, with Fleur de Lys iconography and so on.

Even Plastic Man would be suitably impressed by the amount of stretching in this statement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:
I don't think you understand your own argument. Either what the Imperium does is justifiable from a decent person's point of view or it isn't. Sure it's justified *from their perspective* but so are Chaos, Eldar, etc. So were Nazis.

Ooh, the reverse-Thermian fallacy. Haven't heard that one in a while!

Yeah, it's obvious that by modern, western standards, the Imperium is bad. So is literally every other faction in 40k. That doesn't mean the Imperium isn't 100% justified in what it does in-universe, because last I checked, we haven't spent 10,000 years with the risk of the entire species of humanity being on the brink of being wiped out by malevolent alien races.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Even Plastic Man would be suitably impressed by the amount of stretching in this statement.

Sororitas being coded as Euro-Christian was an important part of my argument. No stretch needed.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Ooh, the reverse-Thermian fallacy. Haven't heard that one in a while!

Not really a fallacy in this case. Argument stands.

Hecaton wrote:
Not really a fallacy in this case. Argument stands.

Your argument literally boils down to "This fictional universe shouldn't have bad things happening in it because the writers can choose to not have the bad things happen." That is a fallacy.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yeah, it's obvious that by modern, western standards, the Imperium is bad. So is literally every other faction in 40k. That doesn't mean the Imperium isn't 100% justified in what it does in-universe, because last I checked, we haven't spent 10,000 years with the risk of the entire species of humanity being on the brink of being wiped out by malevolent alien races.

You kill someone's child. Now they're trying to kill you. Are you justified in using lethal force to defend yourself? Is it a morally right thing to do? The Imperium is basically in that situation. Chaos is a problem of their own making, orks are attacking them because they're already so warlike, and the Eldar don't trust them because the Imperium is made up of corrupt, backstabbing degenerates. The Imperium deserves what it gets.

When I say "justified from their own perspective" I'm saying that the Imperium thinks that they're good guys, not that their actions are morally justified in context (they aren't).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
Not really a fallacy in this case. Argument stands.

Your argument literally boils down to "This fictional universe shouldn't have bad things happening in it because the writers can choose to not have the bad things happen." That is a fallacy.

Nope! You've misunderstood me. The Imperium is not "times are hard we're making hard choices to survive, some of which are morally questionable." That's the Tau. The Imperium is "Times are hard and we're going to make them worse because fixing the problem would involve admitting we were wrong." It's the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable, full of corrupt, self-interested people.

Hecaton wrote:
You kill someone's child. Now they're trying to kill you. Are you justified in using lethal force to defend yourself? Is it a morally right thing to do?

That all depends on your own subjective morals. There is no objective morality. To claim so is beyond ludicrous. There are also hundreds of factors that haven't been defined.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
That all depends on your own subjective morals. There is no objective morality. To claim so is beyond ludicrous.

That's a matter of some debate, but it's obvious that you don't even believe that yourself - since you were talking about the Imperium being justified on the basis of various things. If you really believed that you'd say "the Imperium is neither justified nor unjustified, as justification doesn't matter because there's no objective morals."

So anyway, come back to me when you're not arguing in bad faith.

Hecaton wrote:
When I say "justified from their own perspective" I'm saying that the Imperium thinks that they're good guys, not that their actions are morally justified in context (they aren't).

Nope! You've misunderstood me. The Imperium is not "times are hard we're making hard choices to survive, some of which are morally questionable." That's the Tau. The Imperium is "Times are hard and we're going to make them worse because fixing the problem would involve admitting we were wrong." It's the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable, full of corrupt, self-interested people.

You're once again ascribing objective judgments on something that is inherently subjective.

The Imperium's task is task "Ensure humanity survives". Anything beyond that is, to the Imperium's perspective, irrelevant. Just because you, personally, feel it's a bad way of doing things means diddly squat. If you don't like the setting, don't engage in it. Not every IP has to be My Little Pony and Carebears.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
That all depends on your own subjective morals. There is no objective morality. To claim so is beyond ludicrous.

That's a matter of some debate, but it's obvious that you don't even believe that yourself - since you were talking about the Imperium being justified on the basis of various things. If you really believed that you'd say "the Imperium is neither justified nor unjustified, as justification doesn't matter because there's no objective morals."

So anyway, come back to me when you're not arguing in bad faith.

I am saying from the Imperium's subjective view, they are justified. In the end, it's literally a work of fiction, and even if it were real, in the end it's all meaningless anyway. Have you considered that if you don't like the setting, you could just, ya know, ignore it? TBH you're coming across as the sort of person who says "You can't do X here, make your own Y to do X" then screech bloody murder when people make their own Y and try to get it deplatformed.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I am saying from the Imperium's subjective view, they are justified. In the end, it's literally a work of fiction, and even if it were real, in the end it's all meaningless anyway. Have you considered that if you don't like the setting, you could just, ya know, ignore it? TBH you're coming across as the sort of person who says "You can't do X here, make your own Y to do X" then screech bloody murder when people make their own Y and try to get it deplatformed.

Sure, but from the Dark Eldar's subjective view, they are justified, etc. The Imperium's subjective viewpoint is morally bankrupt. Merely portraying a behavior in fiction isn't endorsing it, however, so the setting existing doesn't stress me out; it's the people who think that the Imperium is unironically laudable who worry me.

Hecaton wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I am saying from the Imperium's subjective view, they are justified. In the end, it's literally a work of fiction, and even if it were real, in the end it's all meaningless anyway. Have you considered that if you don't like the setting, you could just, ya know, ignore it? TBH you're coming across as the sort of person who says "You can't do X here, make your own Y to do X" then screech bloody murder when people make their own Y and try to get it deplatformed.

Sure, but from the Dark Eldar's subjective view, they are justified, etc. The Imperium's subjective viewpoint is morally bankrupt. Merely portraying a behavior in fiction isn't endorsing it, however, so the setting existing doesn't stress me out; it's the people who think that the Imperium is unironically laudable who worry me.

Morally bankrupt... to your personal subjective morality.

Moral relativism is a boring argument because it goes nowhere. A serial killer's actions are (probably, I guess in theory they might not be) justified according to his or her subjective views, too.

It's also boring because nobody - and I mean nobody - actually believes it. Nobody sees the person throwing babies off cliffs and says "oh well, who am I to judge? Morality is all subjective!"

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Morally bankrupt... to your personal subjective morality.

But not to yours?

I'm pretty confident in stating my own "personal subjective morality" is in fact, objectively superior to the Imperium's. The Imperium sees the infliction of suffering on the supposedly deserving (nonhumans, those born with physical deformities, religious enemies) as a good in and of itself. *That's* morally bankrupt on a fundamental level.

The thing I've noticed about 40K fans is that they're often unable to distinguish between "They're doing what they need to do to survive" and "They're doing what they think they need to do to survive, but are also ignorant fools and therefore are probably wrong a lot of the time".

The other thing I've noticed is that y'all are really bad at staying on topic. More personal headcannon, less discussion of the objective/subjective nature of morality in the real world, which is both off-topic and probably also violates the no politics or religion rule!

 Duskweaver wrote:
The thing I've noticed about 40K fans is that they're often unable to distinguish between "They're doing what they need to do to survive" and "They're doing what they think they need to do to survive, but are also ignorant fools and therefore are probably wrong a lot of the time".

Yup. Though I would put the Imperium into "willfully ignorant." Far more convenient for AdMech Magi to promote superstition and ignorance in a way that lets them hold on to power rather than democratizing scientific knowledge, for example.