Well just finished reading Saturnine. I think it’s pretty clear Black Library had no clue what to do with the Sisters of Silence and have made the whole faction a joke.

Basically their leader Krole gets trampled by Kharn and he doesn’t even realise. Bug on a windshield basically. Apparently this is in the same vein as the book where he kills Celestine. Not sure why they’re pushing a meme of him killing all the girls to make him look tough but there you go. Maybe he’ll splat Jain Zar or Yvraine or Lelith next for those fearsome accomplishments.

The problem is that the Sisters of Silence are meant to be one of the Emperors secret armies and meant to be able to keep up with the Custodians. This is an individual who sits at the right hand of the Emperor. You don’t get to that level of esteem by being a bug on the windshield. If she could be killed by a space marine running into her then why would the Emperor bother wasting resources recruiting a whole army of them? Why do the null abilities and power armour not offset Kharnes Chaos magic? In pure stats she’s better than Celestine and I’ve killed Kharn with her before.

It’s an incredibly poor joke. I really doubt Valdor would have a titan fall on him. It doesn’t make Kharn (not even a two dollar demon prince) more badass. It’s like, oh well that just happened. Imagine if Kharn just ran into a normal Custodian and killed him? It’s incredibly dumb and by killing the faction leader that way is a real backhanded way to depict the faction. The writers obviously had no idea what to do with the Sisters of Silence. So they upped the body count which isn’t even mentioned in the aftermath. They got a lot of attention in Eisenstein and really nothing after that. How on earth can you take them seriously after that? Oh we’ve got a few thousand of them to help board Horus flagship. Well that’s going to go well. I mean, how are they meant to fight Flesh Hounds and other demons when they’re stronger than space marines? Just run into them, it’s fine.

One is a superbly trained Human.

The other is Kharn The Betrayer, a superbly trained, post-human killing machine driven to utmost rage.

You.....expected anything else?

Kharn, a non-psyker and blessed by Khorne, has destroyed far more dangerous than a Sister of Silence. Did you know in 6-7th he had a decent chance to one-round a whole Imperial Knight?

I think you're gonna pull through just fine.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
One is a superbly trained Human.

The other is Kharn The Betrayer, a superbly trained, post-human killing machine driven to utmost rage.

You.....expected anything else?

One is a soulless witch with unnatural powers who commands an army that makes war alongside the Custodians and cleansed Prospero. Who sits in the same company as Valdor alongside the Emperor.

One is a glorified aspiring champion apparently too unworthy to ascend to demonhood. What, debatable powers he had would stop working once he goes near a null.

You’re not talking about some cookie cutter Canoness here. Quite aside from the issue marines are not ever shown able to kill a power armour equipped opponent by running at them. This is a faction leader. Making them a throw away character like that badly tarnishs the faction reputation and does nothing for Kharn. I am not seeing a win here.

An actual fight...






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Kharn, a non-psyker and blessed by Khorne, has destroyed far more dangerous than a Sister of Silence. Did you know in 6-7th he had a decent chance to one-round a whole Imperial Knight?

I think you're gonna pull through just fine.

He didn’t kill the Knight by running into it.

Also Heresy era Kharn here.

Sisters of Silenced worked on Prospero because of their effect on Psykers. It’s not just interfering with their abilities - it physically affects them.

Kharn is a raving loony.

Again. What did you expect would happen? Kharn has strength magnitudes beyond hers, far greater combat experience, and at best comparable levels of skill. You don’t fight someone like that. You. Shoot. Them. A lot. And then keep shooting them.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
One is a superbly trained Human.

The other is Kharn The Betrayer, a superbly trained, post-human killing machine driven to utmost rage.

You.....expected anything else?

One is a soulless witch with unnatural powers who commands an army that makes war alongside the Custodians and cleansed Prospero. Who sits in the same company as Valdor alongside the Emperor.

One is a glorified aspiring champion apparently too unworthy to ascend to demonhood. What, debatable powers he had would stop working once he goes near a null.

You’re not talking about some cookie cutter Canoness here. Quite aside from the issue marines are not ever shown able to kill a power armour equipped opponent by running at them. This is a faction leader. Making them a throw away character like that badly tarnishs the faction reputation and does nothing for Kharn. I am not seeing a win here.

An actual fight...






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Kharn, a non-psyker and blessed by Khorne, has destroyed far more dangerous than a Sister of Silence. Did you know in 6-7th he had a decent chance to one-round a whole Imperial Knight?

I think you're gonna pull through just fine.

He didn’t kill the Knight by running into it.

Also Heresy era Kharn here.

I mean I've seen his stats and he's still a monster for all intents and purposes. Also I'd reckon a Space Marine into either of us at full speed would knock us unconscious at MINIMUM, wearing armor or not.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Sisters of Silenced worked on Prospero because of their effect on Psykers. It’s not just interfering with their abilities - it physically affects them.

Kharn is a raving loony.

Again. What did you expect would happen? Kharn has strength magnitudes beyond hers, far greater combat experience, and at best comparable levels of skill. You don’t fight someone like that. You. Shoot. Them. A lot. And then keep shooting them.

He’s not the Hulk. He hasn’t ascended to demonhood or become a possessed. His strength should still be the same as a normal marines. The whole picking up a Rhino was dumb and there’s no precedent for that with normal chaos space marines. If a Thousand Son can’t kill Krole by running at her why should Kharn?

The same reason Celestine goes one on one with Abaddon and kills a Demon Prince. 40k has these big sword fights and yes being a Space Marine does not put you in some invincible class where you’re a pushover. I am sure Kharn would die if Joe sent a nuke in his direction but that would be a pretty dull story. In fact if he’s been able to do this why didn’t he just run into Celestine and have to make the effort chopping her head off?

If he’s a raving loony that should make him easier to kill...let’s run into the Null with the instant death sword.

It physically affects anything with a soul. Not just psykers. His power is from the warp. That vanished if he fights a null. At that point he’s just a normal marine and should fight on those terms.

I don’t see why a poor joke should be made at the expense of making an entire faction a joke. It would be pretty poor if Ghazgul killed Yarrick by running over him. Please, pray tell, what is the upside with this story point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
One is a superbly trained Human.

The other is Kharn The Betrayer, a superbly trained, post-human killing machine driven to utmost rage.

You.....expected anything else?

One is a soulless witch with unnatural powers who commands an army that makes war alongside the Custodians and cleansed Prospero. Who sits in the same company as Valdor alongside the Emperor.

One is a glorified aspiring champion apparently too unworthy to ascend to demonhood. What, debatable powers he had would stop working once he goes near a null.

You’re not talking about some cookie cutter Canoness here. Quite aside from the issue marines are not ever shown able to kill a power armour equipped opponent by running at them. This is a faction leader. Making them a throw away character like that badly tarnishs the faction reputation and does nothing for Kharn. I am not seeing a win here.

An actual fight...






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Kharn, a non-psyker and blessed by Khorne, has destroyed far more dangerous than a Sister of Silence. Did you know in 6-7th he had a decent chance to one-round a whole Imperial Knight?

I think you're gonna pull through just fine.

He didn’t kill the Knight by running into it.

Also Heresy era Kharn here.

I mean I've seen his stats and he's still a monster for all intents and purposes. Also I'd reckon a Space Marine into either of us at full speed would knock us unconscious at MINIMUM, wearing armor or not.

Power armour. Sisters can take being shot by autocannons. At worst she’d have been knocked over and had a few broken ribs.

I might be misremembering but I am sure Krole has better initiative, weapon skill and her sword has instant death as well as bonus strength. I’ll have to double check the profile as it’s been a few years but I’ve killed Kharn before with Krole before. She’s not a bug on the windscreen to go down to the hammer of wrath attack Kharn doesn’t even have. My World Eater friend was not happy to say the least.

Hmm. Another crappy 40k novel. Imagine that.

The whole picking up a Rhino was dumb and there’s no precedent for that with normal chaos space marines.

wolfguard Ranulf lifted a land raider that got destroyed, and pushed it in to lave to create a bridge. Although he was larger then Russ. So doing some incredible feats of strenght is not beyond some space marines. And I think we can agree that Kharn falls in to the some cathegory, more then regular joe marine.

But yeah splating a faction leader that drains off psychic and warp entities is kind of meh. Only worse thing is probably faction leaders being killed off screen to replaced by something new. I guess this is an example of bad book .

ccs wrote:
Hmm. Another crappy 40k novel. Imagine that.

Nuh uh! My dad could beat up your dad!

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Sisters of Silenced worked on Prospero because of their effect on Psykers. It’s not just interfering with their abilities - it physically affects them.

Kharn is a raving loony.

Again. What did you expect would happen? Kharn has strength magnitudes beyond hers, far greater combat experience, and at best comparable levels of skill. You don’t fight someone like that. You. Shoot. Them. A lot. And then keep shooting them.

He’s not the Hulk. He hasn’t ascended to demonhood or become a possessed. His strength should still be the same as a normal marines. The whole picking up a Rhino was dumb and there’s no precedent for that with normal chaos space marines. If a Thousand Son can’t kill Krole by running at her why should Kharn?

The same reason Celestine goes one on one with Abaddon and kills a Demon Prince. 40k has these big sword fights and yes being a Space Marine does not put you in some invincible class where you’re a pushover. I am sure Kharn would die if Joe sent a nuke in his direction but that would be a pretty dull story. In fact if he’s been able to do this why didn’t he just run into Celestine and have to make the effort chopping her head off?

If he’s a raving loony that should make him easier to kill...let’s run into the Null with the instant death sword.

It physically affects anything with a soul. Not just psykers. His power is from the warp. That vanished if he fights a null. At that point he’s just a normal marine and should fight on those terms.

I don’t see why a poor joke should be made at the expense of making an entire faction a joke. It would be pretty poor if Ghazgul killed Yarrick by running over him. Please, pray tell, what is the upside with this story point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
One is a superbly trained Human.

The other is Kharn The Betrayer, a superbly trained, post-human killing machine driven to utmost rage.

You.....expected anything else?

One is a soulless witch with unnatural powers who commands an army that makes war alongside the Custodians and cleansed Prospero. Who sits in the same company as Valdor alongside the Emperor.

One is a glorified aspiring champion apparently too unworthy to ascend to demonhood. What, debatable powers he had would stop working once he goes near a null.

You’re not talking about some cookie cutter Canoness here. Quite aside from the issue marines are not ever shown able to kill a power armour equipped opponent by running at them. This is a faction leader. Making them a throw away character like that badly tarnishs the faction reputation and does nothing for Kharn. I am not seeing a win here.

An actual fight...






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Kharn, a non-psyker and blessed by Khorne, has destroyed far more dangerous than a Sister of Silence. Did you know in 6-7th he had a decent chance to one-round a whole Imperial Knight?

I think you're gonna pull through just fine.

He didn’t kill the Knight by running into it.

Also Heresy era Kharn here.

I mean I've seen his stats and he's still a monster for all intents and purposes. Also I'd reckon a Space Marine into either of us at full speed would knock us unconscious at MINIMUM, wearing armor or not.

Power armour. Sisters can take being shot by autocannons. At worst she’d have been knocked over and had a few broken ribs.

I might be misremembering but I am sure Krole has better initiative, weapon skill and her sword has instant death as well as bonus strength. I’ll have to double check the profile as it’s been a few years but I’ve killed Kharn before with Krole before. She’s not a bug on the windscreen to go down to the hammer of wrath attack Kharn doesn’t even have. My World Eater friend was not happy to say the least.

Uh if Ghazzy ran over Yarrick I would expect him to die, yes.
Also if you're looking at the rules, Kharn has Rage, WS7 (8 in a challenge), and would wound on a 2+. Even with EW, she wouldn't last that long.
Being T3 and everyone fighting in story, it isn't unreasonable for her to die quickly.

Looks at artwork of 3rd ed Armageddon expansion with Ghaz running at Yarrick.

Yeah right.

If a human can go one on one with THAT without power armour or magical powers how is it unreasonable that the soulless abomination in power armour at the Emperors right hand can’t? Celestine is unaugmented and kills a demon prince. Sabbat kills a demon prince in Dan Abnetts own book so he’s just being plain inconsistent at this point. I doubt he’d have Gaunt or one of his Ghosts go down from a marine running into them.

The situation is that Kharn runs into an invisible woman in power armour. That results in her being knocked over and some bruises. The armours not just for show. I mean, by this logic Kharn should by running into Space Marines and killing them if the armour doesn’t work. Lasguns would be dropping marines if they didn’t have their armour. Having a faction leader go splat is a joke.

All this does is humiliate and backhand every Sisters of Silence army. It makes them a joke. If they show up again I ll be like. “Wow the best of you got splatted like a bug; you better sit this one out girls.”

Kroles sword has instant death, cuts through his armour and has better initiative. She’s got very good odds of killing Kharn or a Praetor style character.

Post the actual excerpt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

The problem is that the Sisters of Silence are meant to be one of the Emperors secret armies and meant to be able to keep up with the Custodians.

Incidentally this isn't really true, not in a way that's relevant. A Custodian is much stronger, faster, tougher, and frankly more skilled in hand to hand combat than a Sisters of Silence is. The Sisters of Battle are supremely skilled human warriors so can "keep up" in that sense and their null qualities gives the Custodes a defense against the one thing they're particularly weak against, but the two are not comparable at all.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Post the actual excerpt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

The problem is that the Sisters of Silence are meant to be one of the Emperors secret armies and meant to be able to keep up with the Custodians.

Incidentally this isn't really true, not in a way that's relevant. A Custodian is much stronger, faster, tougher, and frankly more skilled in hand to hand combat than a Sisters of Silence is. The Sisters of Battle are supremely skilled human warriors so can "keep up" in that sense and their null qualities gives the Custodes a defense against the one thing they're particularly weak against, but the two are not comparable at all.

I’ll add it up top in a bit.



We’re not talking about fought well and still died forgotten. We’re talking about taking a factions only character and getting run over the by the Juggernaught. Cho cho all aboard the Kharn train.

Being able to keep up with a Custodian is impressive and they have magical null powers to compensate.

they have magical null powers to compensate.

You seem kind of stuck on this. Their 'null powers' do nothing but make magic _not work_. Against the chosen champion of the god who cares nothing for magic... its a 'so what?' moment.

There's criticism to be made about a character being used as a speed bump, but anti-magic not working against a complete lack of magic isn't one of them.

Not to mention that even the pain aura from the null aura would mean absolutely nothing to someone like Kharn due to the nails anyway.

Voss wrote:

they have magical null powers to compensate.

You seem kind of stuck on this. Their 'null powers' do nothing but make magic _not work_. Against the chosen champion of the god who cares nothing for magic... its a 'so what?' moment.

There's criticism to be made about a character being used as a speed bump, but anti-magic not working against a complete lack of magic isn't one of them.

Chaos is magic. Kharns power comes from the chaos gods. A null field shuts that down same as if it’s a nurgle or tzeentch enchantment. Khorne is not immune from these things because it’s more physically based boons. At that point he’s just another marine one heavy bolter round from exploding like a water balloon.

You’re absolutely right. It’s an appalling way to depict a faction and renders them a massive joke. See this £40 model. Yeah, got trampled by an actually good faction lieutenant. Hey, if they want to take a dump on the faction fine.

Voss wrote:

they have magical null powers to compensate.

You seem kind of stuck on this. Their 'null powers' do nothing but make magic _not work_. Against the chosen champion of the god who cares nothing for magic... its a 'so what?' moment.

There's criticism to be made about a character being used as a speed bump, but anti-magic not working against a complete lack of magic isn't one of them.

they make chaos stuff stop working. So if you are pumped with gifts from the gods, and your whole inside has been rearranged to work with god given muscles etc, and suddenly someone cut of the juice, it could even be hard for someone to move.

Karol wrote:

Voss wrote:

they have magical null powers to compensate.

You seem kind of stuck on this. Their 'null powers' do nothing but make magic _not work_. Against the chosen champion of the god who cares nothing for magic... its a 'so what?' moment.

There's criticism to be made about a character being used as a speed bump, but anti-magic not working against a complete lack of magic isn't one of them.

they make chaos stuff stop working. So if you are pumped with gifts from the gods, and your whole inside has been rearranged to work with god given muscles etc, and suddenly someone cut of the juice, it could even be hard for someone to move.

I know. Why do incredibly powerful Thousand Sons spells instantly stop working but a boon of strength is immune?

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


I’ll add it up top in a bit.

Spoiler:

I see Kharn coming. Kharn, First Captain. He is a true giant. My null curse does not even slow him down, or give him pause. I raise my sword. Veracity. I speak in Kharns language. I.

The quad was washed with blood. Kharns rage was deeper than he had ever allowed it to be before. The Blood god drinks deep. A flicker. Kharn noticed the long number of his tally count had suddenly risen by one. A moment of confusion. He did not remember making another kill. He did not see anything but his axe is spitting blood. The rage makes everything a blur. The numbers did not matter. It never had. The flicker of confusion passed as the nails bit, and the fury deepened. He moved on.

We’re not talking about fought well and still died forgotten. We’re talking about taking a factions only character and getting run over the by the Juggernaught. Cho cho all aboard the Kharn train.

Being able to keep up with a Custodian is impressive and they have magical null powers to compensate.

So he didn't literally run through her. "He did not see anything but his axe spitting blood", he killed her with his chainaxe, he just didn't notice it because the nails whirring in his head has blinded him to his surroundings.

Krole is a normal human. She is orders of magnitude weaker and frailer than Kharn, as well as being slower. Kharn could literally cave her skull in by squeezing it with his fingers. Kharn is also the favored champion of Khorne, and as such has claim to being one of the top five most dangerous Marines in a melee, even disregarding his massive physical advantages over Krole. And no, there is no evidence her powers could negate Khorne's blessing and honestly? Even if she could, it doesn't matter. Kharn should still win the melee. But Khorne's blessings aren't like psychic abilities. If Khorne gives you superhuman big muscles, you don't lose them when in the presence of a Blank. Psykers are handicapped because they can no longer draw Warp energies to them; that's what Blanks do. Stop the flow of the Warp. Things the Warp has already mutated can't be lost.

Don't complain that Kharn was able to easily kill her, complain about the writer enabling a situation where Krole would fight Kharn in melee would come to pass. Because it would be far greater bs if she won or even stalemated him.

Even if his blessings were in any way affected by a Null Maiden? Kharn remains a Space Marine.

I’m really, really not sure why you’re struggling with this?

Why take SoS on Horus’ flagship if they’re so comparatively weedy? They’re psychic blanks. They’d halt, arguably reverse any weird warp shenanigans aboard. They’d weaken Daemons and the Daemon Possessed. And you’d take as many as you can muster simply because a) this is it. Do or die b) there’s literally no reason not to take them c) as explained above, they’re really, really bloody useful when the enemy is making heavy use of the Warp.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


I’ll add it up top in a bit.

Spoiler:

I see Kharn coming. Kharn, First Captain. He is a true giant. My null curse does not even slow him down, or give him pause. I raise my sword. Veracity. I speak in Kharns language. I.

The quad was washed with blood. Kharns rage was deeper than he had ever allowed it to be before. The Blood god drinks deep. A flicker. Kharn noticed the long number of his tally count had suddenly risen by one. A moment of confusion. He did not remember making another kill. He did not see anything but his axe is spitting blood. The rage makes everything a blur. The numbers did not matter. It never had. The flicker of confusion passed as the nails bit, and the fury deepened. He moved on.

We’re not talking about fought well and still died forgotten. We’re talking about taking a factions only character and getting run over the by the Juggernaught. Cho cho all aboard the Kharn train.

Being able to keep up with a Custodian is impressive and they have magical null powers to compensate.

So he didn't literally run through her. "He did not see anything but his axe spitting blood", he killed her with his chainaxe, he just didn't notice it because the nails whirring in his head has blinded him to his surroundings.

Krole is a normal human. She is orders of magnitude weaker and frailer than Kharn, as well as being slower. Kharn could literally cave her skull in by squeezing it with his fingers. Kharn is also the favored champion of Khorne, and as such has claim to being one of the top five most dangerous Marines in a melee, even disregarding his massive physical advantages over Krole. And no, there is no evidence her powers could negate Khorne's blessing and honestly? Even if she could, it doesn't matter. Kharn should still win the melee. But Khorne's blessings aren't like psychic abilities. If Khorne gives you superhuman big muscles, you don't lose them when in the presence of a Blank. Psykers are handicapped because they can no longer draw Warp energies to them; that's what Blanks do. Stop the flow of the Warp. Things the Warp has already mutated can't be lost.

Don't complain that Kharn was able to easily kill her, complain about the writer enabling a situation where Krole would fight Kharn in melee would come to pass. Because it would be far greater bs if she won or even stalemated him.

He’s been killing a lot of people it could be anyones blood. I don’t take that to mean he killed her with an axe. Earlier on it emphasises the world eaters trampling things underfoot and Kroles monologue is cut abruptly off. There’s no suggestion he swung at her only that he was a big dumb lump of metal steaming towards her. The way it’s written is as a piece of dark humour where the hero gets swatted by a space marine without breaking stride. Bug on a windshield. I don’t see another reading of that.

I mean, really anyone could apply a fusion pistol to his face and melt what passes for his brains. Like if he’s not even paying attention then he’s just a puppet of flesh and bone. A sack of warm piss with blessings of Khorne would be as effective.

I agree. It has ruined the Sisters of Silence as a faction. Any appearance they make in the rest of the siege will be coloured by this moment. Oh yeah your leader died like a chump.

Kharn and his Killboyz are carving apart everything before them.

And you reckon you’d be calm enough, and the melee slow enough, for a precision headshot?

It seems you’re determined to die on this hill, doesn’t it?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Even if his blessings were in any way affected by a Null Maiden? Kharn remains a Space Marine.

I’m really, really not sure why you’re struggling with this?

Why take SoS on Horus’ flagship if they’re so comparatively weedy? They’re psychic blanks. They’d halt, arguably reverse any weird warp shenanigans aboard. They’d weaken Daemons and the Daemon Possessed. And you’d take as many as you can muster simply because a) this is it. Do or die b) there’s literally no reason not to take them c) as explained above, they’re really, really bloody useful when the enemy is making heavy use of the Warp.

Because it goes against them being one of the Emperors elite organisations if the faction leader can be killed by a hammer of wrath attack.

If they die by marines running at them and null magic doesn’t impact physical manifestations of chaos. They’re a liability. Same reason there’s no point sending guard up there. Why give them expensive power armour and bolters when your real soldiers are running short?

Well Chaos assault on space port should entail heavy use of chaos. But apparently the World Eaters and Khorne are immune to this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Kharn and his Killboyz are carving apart everything before them.

And you reckon you’d be calm enough, and the melee slow enough, for a precision headshot?

It seems you’re determined to die on this hill, doesn’t it?

Maybe not me. But the few thousand guys with all the plasma, earthshaker, demolisher cannons, macrocannons and tactical nukes. Yeah, he ain’t getting anywhere near me with that axe if we’re bringing realism into this all of a sudden.

Mechanically. Sister of Battle Canoness. Ebon Chalice. Max damage on melta from act of faith. Bye bye Kharn.

Firstly, this wasn't Khan as in Khab the betrayer, the total raving khorne looney, this was still closer to crusade era Khan than betrayer Khan (though, this is where it starts later in the battle when he is killed that he totally starts to lose the plot), one of the most elite space marines, in the upper echelons of ability with peers such as Sigismund who would be considered his equal, maybe not in technique but in pure ability to kill almost anything placed in-front of him other than a primarch level enemy.

Khan, well, most space marines would be able to kill a human by just running at them... That's some serious blunt force trauma to be dealt with.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Firstly, this wasn't Khan as in Khab the betrayer, the total raving khorne looney, this was still closer to crusade era Khan than betrayer Khan (though, this is where it starts later in the battle when he is killed), one of the most elite space marines, in the upper echelons of ability with peers such as Sigismund who would be considered his equal, maybe not in technique but in pure ability to kill almost anything placed in-front of him other than a primarch level enemy.

Khan, well, most space marines would be able to kill a human by just running at them... That's some serious blunt force trauma to be dealt with.

If you’re not wearing a suit of power armour.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Firstly, this wasn't Khan as in Khab the betrayer, the total raving khorne looney, this was still closer to crusade era Khan than betrayer Khan (though, this is where it starts later in the battle when he is killed), one of the most elite space marines, in the upper echelons of ability with peers such as Sigismund who would be considered his equal, maybe not in technique but in pure ability to kill almost anything placed in-front of him other than a primarch level enemy.

Khan, well, most space marines would be able to kill a human by just running at them... That's some serious blunt force trauma to be dealt with.

If you’re not wearing a suit of power armour.

Even in power armour. The power armour may look fine from the outside, it's not good if the inside is mush.

Hmmm. That bit of prose seems pretty awful, is a lot of it like that? I wanted to give this stuff a go.

 Da Boss wrote:
Hmmm. That bit of prose seems pretty awful, is a lot of it like that? I wanted to give this stuff a go.

Not too sure what prose is?

It is a stoic character thinking to herself in her last moment and a madman. More complex sentences in other parts of the text.

 Da Boss wrote:
Hmmm. That bit of prose seems pretty awful, is a lot of it like that?

IMO, yes.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Firstly, this wasn't Khan as in Khab the betrayer, the total raving khorne looney, this was still closer to crusade era Khan than betrayer Khan (though, this is where it starts later in the battle when he is killed), one of the most elite space marines, in the upper echelons of ability with peers such as Sigismund who would be considered his equal, maybe not in technique but in pure ability to kill almost anything placed in-front of him other than a primarch level enemy.

Khan, well, most space marines would be able to kill a human by just running at them... That's some serious blunt force trauma to be dealt with.

If you’re not wearing a suit of power armour.

Even in power armour. The power armour may look fine from the outside, it's not good if the inside is mush.

If it didn’t protect from blunt force trauma then bolter rounds would kill them and the armour worthless. In Hammer and Anvil a pair of sisters take autocannon rounds and are only wounded by that. I am sure an autocannon has more blunt force trauma than a dude running into you.

OP- arguing about a passage in a novel, yet doesn't know basic literary terms.

Seems legit.

 Grimtuff wrote:
OP- arguing about a passage in a novel, yet doesn't know basic literary terms.

Seems legit.

I am not commenting on the prose or the technical complexity of the writing. I am saying they threw this character under the bus; quite literally.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
OP- arguing about a passage in a novel, yet doesn't know basic literary terms.

Seems legit.

I am not commenting on the prose or the technical complexity of the writing. I am saying they threw this character under the bus; quite literally.

Not literally. Kharn is not a bus.

You're not making a good case for yourself here.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Firstly, this wasn't Khan as in Khab the betrayer, the total raving khorne looney, this was still closer to crusade era Khan than betrayer Khan (though, this is where it starts later in the battle when he is killed), one of the most elite space marines, in the upper echelons of ability with peers such as Sigismund who would be considered his equal, maybe not in technique but in pure ability to kill almost anything placed in-front of him other than a primarch level enemy.

Khan, well, most space marines would be able to kill a human by just running at them... That's some serious blunt force trauma to be dealt with.

If you’re not wearing a suit of power armour.

Even in power armour. The power armour may look fine from the outside, it's not good if the inside is mush.

If it didn’t protect from blunt force trauma then bolter rounds would kill them and the armour worthless. In Hammer and Anvil a pair of sisters take autocannon rounds and are only wounded by that. I am sure an autocannon has more blunt force trauma than a dude running into you.

Place me in a box made of thick steel and shoot guns at it. I'm probably going to be safe. Drop that same box 6 floors and it will possibly have hardly any damage, I will be in a whole world of trouble though.

If you're complaining about her dying in geneal, I think it actually accentuates the desperation of the Siege of Terra in a way. While there are heroic last stands, there are also a million or more tiny battles to the death where plenty have ignominous deaths that are unheard and forgotten, and hers is one of them. It's actually oddly fitting, that the leader of the Sisters of Silence, best known for their lack of battlefield rhetoric or speech in general, besides their status as witch hunters, that she dies in complete anonymity and silence that even Kharn didn't know what happened. In war plenty of people just die in unexpected ways, and I don't think that this is that bad of a way to go out. Keep in mind Kharn had literally beaten Sigismund one on one already due to how swollen with power he was with Khorne, so even without Khorne's influence, between the Butcher's nails and his own prowess, I could see him just plowing through Krole into a paste if she was in his way.

Also, let's be real, does anyone really have that much investment in Krole as a character? Her backstory is cool and all, but as far as I know it's not like there's a huge backlog of characterization for her in the novels or even the HH 30K books. So it's not like how they handled Alpharius into becoming a meme.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
OP- arguing about a passage in a novel, yet doesn't know basic literary terms.

Seems legit.

I am not commenting on the prose or the technical complexity of the writing. I am saying they threw this character under the bus; quite literally.

Not literally. Kharn is not a bus.

You're not making a good case for yourself here.

That’s the joke.

It’s an opinion piece. I have a Sisters if Silence army and I think GW did them and their leader atrociously in this book. You would never see a Space Marine or smartass Perpetual swatted like a bug. Those characters get dignity. That tells me Dan Abnett was wanting to up the body count and gunning for a bit of dark humour. I think that cheapens the Sisters of Silence and doesn’t do anything for Kharn.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
OP- arguing about a passage in a novel, yet doesn't know basic literary terms.

Seems legit.

I am not commenting on the prose or the technical complexity of the writing. I am saying they threw this character under the bus; quite literally.

Not literally. Kharn is not a bus.

You're not making a good case for yourself here.

That’s the joke.

It’s an opinion piece. I have a Sisters if Silence army and I think GW did them and their leader atrociously in this book. You would never see a Space Marine or smartass Perpetual swatted like a bug. Those characters get dignity. That tells me Dan Abnett was wanting to up the body count and gunning for a bit of dark humour. I think that cheapens the Sisters of Silence and doesn’t do anything for Kharn.

You haven't read the Eisenhorn books have you?

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
OP- arguing about a passage in a novel, yet doesn't know basic literary terms.

Seems legit.

I am not commenting on the prose or the technical complexity of the writing. I am saying they threw this character under the bus; quite literally.

Not literally. Kharn is not a bus.

You're not making a good case for yourself here.

That’s the joke.

It’s an opinion piece. I have a Sisters if Silence army and I think GW did them and their leader atrociously in this book. You would never see a Space Marine or smartass Perpetual swatted like a bug. Those characters get dignity. That tells me Dan Abnett was wanting to up the body count and gunning for a bit of dark humour. I think that cheapens the Sisters of Silence and doesn’t do anything for Kharn.

It really isn't atrocious though. As a Necron player I'm not gonna complain if one of my characters suddenly couldn't reanimate after Kharn got through with them. I think you really just don't understand Kharn as a character or his abilities.

You really need to stop and consider a lot about this.

Kharn remains at all times a Space Marine. As such, he’s not a mere “splunger”, strong but slow. He’s wicked strong, and he’s wicked fast. Hence post-human dread. People just can’t process something that big, in armour that thick, doing what it can, moving so fluidly etc.

The running speed of a Space Marine is wonky canon. Some sources peg it around 30-35 mph, others as much as 50mph.

Quick Google suggest an armoured weight of around 300kg - or 47 Stone. I suspect that’s way, way too light. I mean, Hafthor Bjornnson, who portrayed The Mountain in GoT reportedly weighs in at 205kg, at a height of 2.06m, or 6’9”

Now he is 100% a big, huge fella. No doubting that. Yet in terms of body mass, he’s miles away from Astartes. Remember, their bones are thickened, and they’re packing additional organs. Their muscles are also denser - making them heavier, so the 300kg is clearly well out.

Fully armoured, with the backpack power unit? I’d say easily 500kg.

Running at 30mph? That’s bone shattering impact.

Running at 50mph? That’s organ bursting impact.

That’s before factoring in anything like a punch swung at that sprint.

To get an idea of that? When filming Rocky IV, Dolph Lundgren punched Sylvester Stallone so hard, he was in ICU for nine days. Doctors compared the resulting injuries to those from a head on collision.

What do you think even an unarmoured, standing strike from an Astartes would do to the human body?

That is the frankly ludicrous “you cannot possibly portray this properly on screen” level of power we’re dealing with.

And don’t forget, Kharn was wielding a chain saw headed axe, complete with a matter disrupting energy field.

Are you still expecting a result beyond “you go squish now” for any unenhanced human?

 Grimskul wrote:
If you're complaining about her dying in geneal, I think it actually accentuates the desperation of the Siege of Terra in a way. While there are heroic last stands, there are also a million or more tiny battles to the death where plenty have ignominous deaths that are unheard and forgotten, and hers is one of them. It's actually oddly fitting, that the leader of the Sisters of Silence, best known for their lack of battlefield rhetoric or speech in general, besides their status as witch hunters, that she dies in complete anonymity and silence that even Kharn didn't know what happened. In war plenty of people just die in unexpected ways, and I don't think that this is that bad of a way to go out. Keep in mind Kharn had literally beaten Sigismund one on one already due to how swollen with power he was with Khorne, so even without Khorne's influence, between the Butcher's nails and his own prowess, I could see him just plowing through Krole into a paste if she was in his way.

Also, let's be real, does anyone really have that much investment in Krole as a character? Her backstory is cool and all, but as far as I know it's not like there's a huge backlog of characterization for her in the novels or even the HH 30K books. So it's not like how they handled Alpharius into becoming a meme.

Not really. She wonders if she’s going to be remembered and then Kharn goes “what the hell did I just hit”. That’s a dark joke. If Kharn got a nuke dropped on him by an anonymous artillery commander I doubt it would be taken as well. It’s not poetic it’s humiliating. Desperation and dying forgotten did not need a meme of Kharns kill counter ticking up. I think Dan wanted to do the edgelord thing and have the noble warrior have an ignominious death because it’s not one of his wise cracking perpetuals with their plot armour. Those are unpretentious characters. Like Gaunts squad killing a dozen chaos marines by being sneaky sneaky.

They haven’t and that’s a shame. Fifty plus novel on the Heresy and we’ll barely do anything with the faction.

Looks at Sisters of Silence army with Forgeworld models. Yeah I kind of cared. They’re a cool faction in concept. Black Library clearly had no clue how to weave into a story centred on Space Marines in total war.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
OP- arguing about a passage in a novel, yet doesn't know basic literary terms.

Seems legit.

I am not commenting on the prose or the technical complexity of the writing. I am saying they threw this character under the bus; quite literally.

Not literally. Kharn is not a bus.

You're not making a good case for yourself here.

That’s the joke.

It’s an opinion piece. I have a Sisters if Silence army and I think GW did them and their leader atrociously in this book. You would never see a Space Marine or smartass Perpetual swatted like a bug. Those characters get dignity. That tells me Dan Abnett was wanting to up the body count and gunning for a bit of dark humour. I think that cheapens the Sisters of Silence and doesn’t do anything for Kharn.

You haven't read the Eisenhorn books have you?

Many years ago. Why?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
OP- arguing about a passage in a novel, yet doesn't know basic literary terms.

Seems legit.

I am not commenting on the prose or the technical complexity of the writing. I am saying they threw this character under the bus; quite literally.

Not literally. Kharn is not a bus.

You're not making a good case for yourself here.

That’s the joke.

It’s an opinion piece. I have a Sisters if Silence army and I think GW did them and their leader atrociously in this book. You would never see a Space Marine or smartass Perpetual swatted like a bug. Those characters get dignity. That tells me Dan Abnett was wanting to up the body count and gunning for a bit of dark humour. I think that cheapens the Sisters of Silence and doesn’t do anything for Kharn.

It really isn't atrocious though. As a Necron player I'm not gonna complain if one of my characters suddenly couldn't reanimate after Kharn got through with them. I think you really just don't understand Kharn as a character or his abilities.

Because she’s the only Sister of Silence character and the faction leader. You’re talking about Kharn splatting the Silent King not one of a number of special characters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You really need to stop and consider a lot about this.

Kharn remains at all times a Space Marine. As such, he’s not a mere “splunger”, strong but slow. He’s wicked strong, and he’s wicked fast. Hence post-human dread. People just can’t process something that big, in armour that thick, doing what it can, moving so fluidly etc.

The running speed of a Space Marine is wonky canon. Some sources peg it around 30-35 mph, others as much as 50mph.

Quick Google suggest an armoured weight of around 300kg - or 47 Stone. I suspect that’s way, way too light. I mean, Hafthor Bjornnson, who portrayed The Mountain in GoT reportedly weighs in at 205kg, at a height of 2.06m, or 6’9”

Now he is 100% a big, huge fella. No doubting that. Yet in terms of body mass, he’s miles away from Astartes. Remember, their bones are thickened, and they’re packing additional organs. Their muscles are also denser - making them heavier, so the 300kg is clearly well out.

Fully armoured, with the backpack power unit? I’d say easily 500kg.

Running at 30mph? That’s bone shattering impact.

Running at 50mph? That’s organ bursting impact.

That’s before factoring in anything like a punch swung at that sprint.

To get an idea of that? When filming Rocky IV, Dolph Lundgren punched Sylvester Stallone so hard, he was in ICU for nine days. Doctors compared the resulting injuries to those from a head on collision.

What do you think even an unarmoured, standing strike from an Astartes would do to the human body?

That is the frankly ludicrous “you cannot possibly portray this properly on screen” level of power we’re dealing with.

And don’t forget, Kharn was wielding a chain saw headed axe, complete with a matter disrupting energy field.

Are you still expecting a result beyond “you go squish now” for any unenhanced human?

If she’s wearing power armour, has a magic sword and commands one of the Emperors personal armies that broke Prospero. Plus many crazy null powers. Yeah. I don’t get the impression a marine can kill such a person by running into them.

Plus he had to actually fight Celestine before he decapitated her and she’s an unaugmented human. No running into her and splat.

Well Dan needs to explain how Gaunt survived fighting an Iron Warrior in melee before his buddy shot him in he head with a lasgun.

I think people arguing the logic of Kharn being ABLE to crush a human underfoot are missing the point here.

It doesn't matter if that could happen, it matters that it did happen, and how it was dealt with in the narrative. It isn't a theoretical question about whether this is possible or realistic, but a question about whether it makes for a better story or is more satisfying.

This for sure isn't the first time that a character (even from a major faction) gets killed in less than a sentence and almost as an afterthought.

Null powers don’t help against Kharn. He is not psychically enhanced.

Krole, though skilled, is physically unenhanced. At the very most, that means she’s no more than the peak of human physical potential.

Heresy. 40k. All GW novels are wonderfully inconsistent. But Krole being swatted by Kharn? It’s entirely realistic.

Consider actual fightyfight. With close combat weapons.

Skill counts. Speed counts. Strength counts. Experience counts. Your weapon? Is genuinely less important than the above - but should lean into your strong points among them.

If your opponent is stronger than you, parrying or deflecting their strikes won’t necessarily work, as depending on the extent of the difference, they could well simply push past regardless.

If your opponent is faster, they’ve got a distinct edge.

If your opponent is more experienced, they’ve got a distinct advantage.

If you’re more skilled, you have an advantage of your own.

Here? Kharn has all of those advantages over an unenhanced human, however special their bonce might be.

Power Armour isn’t the be all and end all for an unenhanced human.

Consider car crashes. I can be belted in, the airbag can deploy, and the designed crumple zones (there to absorb impact) work perfectly - and I can still die from ruptured organs, if the impact is fast enough. Because of the limits of the human body.

If you’re in power armour, and I hit you with sufficient force? The same thing can happen - and I don’t need to actually breach its integrity. Like, at all. Because that’s not how the transfer of force works.

Then there’s Kharn’s level of combat expertise. He’d be chopping (with his chain saw headed axe that’s wrapped in a matter disrupting energy field) at the weak points, such as the inevitable joints of the armour.

I’m afraid you’ve got nowt here duder.

Again, it isn't about whether Kharn could do that, but whether it is satisfying to read to have it be that way. I certainly would prefer to have a cool scene rather than a throw away joke like that.

 Da Boss wrote:
I think people arguing the logic of Kharn being ABLE to crush a human underfoot are missing the point here.

It doesn't matter if that could happen, it matters that it did happen, and how it was dealt with in the narrative. It isn't a theoretical question about whether this is possible or realistic, but a question about whether it makes for a better story or is more satisfying.

Exactly.

I mean the books, even just looking at Dan Abnett and the Heresy are monstrously inconsistent with how powerful marines are. There’s bits of Pharos where a platoon of militia kills thirty night lords with a few heavy bolters. Brag killing an iron warrior with a missile launcher like it’s not a big deal that would have made Hero of the Imperium or anything.

This was the poster child of the faction. How she went out colours the faction and making a meme out of her death is just a bad from a branding perspective. It’s a bit like the 40k trailer. Of course Sisters aren’t in the same league with Marines and there’s plenty of visual cues this is the case. But, that’s not the same as rubbing it in by having a faction leader and only special character splatooned in such a humiliating way.


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Spoletta wrote:
This for sure isn't the first time that a character (even from a major faction) gets killed in less than a sentence and almost as an afterthought.

The only character and faction leader?

He did Eidolon and the SoH characters pretty dirty as well but as least he’s not the only character and faction leader.

Don't say "exactly" as if that was the point you were trying to make all along. You have been emphatically arguing in this entire thread that the SoS is too strong to have been rolled over by Kharn the way she was.

And no one ITT has argued that it is narratively exciting for things to have gone down that way, only that Kharn bodying her is consistent with the fluff.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Null powers don’t help against Kharn. He is not psychically enhanced.

Krole, though skilled, is physically unenhanced. At the very most, that means she’s no more than the peak of human physical potential.

Heresy. 40k. All GW novels are wonderfully inconsistent. But Krole being swatted by Kharn? It’s entirely realistic.

Consider actual fightyfight. With close combat weapons.

Skill counts. Speed counts. Strength counts. Experience counts. Your weapon? Is genuinely less important than the above - but should lean into your strong points among them.

If your opponent is stronger than you, parrying or deflecting their strikes won’t necessarily work, as depending on the extent of the difference, they could well simply push past regardless.

If your opponent is faster, they’ve got a distinct edge.

If your opponent is more experienced, they’ve got a distinct advantage.

If you’re more skilled, you have an advantage of your own.

Here? Kharn has all of those advantages over an unenhanced human, however special their bonce might be.

Power Armour isn’t the be all and end all for an unenhanced human.

Consider car crashes. I can be belted in, the airbag can deploy, and the designed crumple zones (there to absorb impact) work perfectly - and I can still die from ruptured organs, if the impact is fast enough. Because of the limits of the human body.

If you’re in power armour, and I hit you with sufficient force? The same thing can happen - and I don’t need to actually breach its integrity. Like, at all. Because that’s not how the transfer of force works.

Then there’s Kharn’s level of combat expertise. He’d be chopping (with his chain saw headed axe that’s wrapped in a matter disrupting energy field) at the weak points, such as the inevitable joints of the armour.

I’m afraid you’ve got nowt here duder.

Explain how Celestine can fight a demon prince and win? She’s unaugmented. Even held her own against Abaddon. Still a str3 t3 girl in power armour with a magic sword. Gaunt not dying instantly when he fights an Iron Warrior in close combat? Clearly, a characters ability to fight depends on who they are and not a checklist of abilities. Krole is at least on a level with Celestine. The only reason to treat the character different is the author wanting to make a dark joke. Has nothing to do with power level.

Also, read the passage. This wasn’t some short duel. She basically ran into the Khorne train.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Don't say "exactly" as if that was the point you were trying to make all along. You have been emphatically arguing in this entire thread that the SoS is too strong to have been rolled over by Kharn the way she was.

And no one ITT has argued that it is narratively exciting for things to have gone down that way, only that Kharn bodying her is consistent with the fluff.

It’s the only point I’ve been making and the only one I care to make. Hence all the talk about it being embarrassing and humiliating for her to go down like that. It’s inconsistent to treat Krole that way whilst Celestine kills marines by the score and duels Abaddon.

They have.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Explain how Celestine can fight a demon prince and win? She’s unaugmented. Even held her own against Abaddon.

Celestine is explicitly augmented by the Emperors power.

On Cadia when both Celestine and Abaddon were both briefly depowered he easily beat her.

Celestine is functionally a Imperial daemon prince. She isn't at all comparable to this chick in power.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Celestine is functionally a Imperial daemon prince. She isn't at all comparable to this chick in power.

Yup, there's an entire book about her process of resurrection and having to fight and find pieces of her in the warp before she can reconstitute herself. She is NOT a normal human and using in game stats to justify her being unaugmented is about as dense as saying that an Ethereal getting headshotted by a Ratling sniper rifle in the fluff is inaccurate because you can only inflict 2 wounds max from successfully rolling a 6 to wound on a single shot from a Ratling sniper rifle in 40K. You can't swap between the game and the fluff to justify your point without acknowleding that the game is not a direct 1:1 equivalent given that it's an abstraction and lacks the granularity of what happens in written fiction.

I have no issue with Kharn being able to run through a SoS, named character, faction leader or otherwise. At the end of the day she is a human and he is a Space Marine.

I completely get what Abnett was going for here, nobody is safe in the Siege and the shock value of killing off a major character unceremoniously makes a potent point regarding plot armour and tosses out expectations. Equally it does suck that this is really the only character we know in the whole faction, and I can see why it irks the OP.

A.T. wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Explain how Celestine can fight a demon prince and win? She’s unaugmented. Even held her own against Abaddon.

Celestine is explicitly augmented by the Emperors power.

On Cadia when both Celestine and Abaddon were both briefly depowered he easily beat her.

Which amounts to her being a str3 t3 character in power armour reliant on wargear. Why didn’t Abaddon just run into her?

Krole has null powers, power armour and a magic sword. Pretty sure also has a iron halo as well which was mysteriously missing. I am not seeing the difference here.

The point is Black Library is not consistent with power levels. There’s stories where Sisters characters are killing marines and others where they can’t scratch a single one. Faith and Fury and the Mason book with the Genecult. This has everything to do with the authors intent, not power level. Dan threw the character and faction under the Khorne Train.

Aash wrote:
I have no issue with Kharn being able to run through a SoS, named character, faction leader or otherwise. At the end of the day she is a human and he is a Space Marine.

I completely get what Abnett was going for here, nobody is safe in the Siege and the shock value of killing off a major character unceremoniously makes a potent point regarding plot armour and tosses out expectations. Equally it does suck that this is really the only character we know in the whole faction, and I can see why it irks the OP.

I mean that's not entirely true though, because we have Amendera Kendel who had more written about her than the Krole, and she's the very first human to have ordered Exterminatus. There's also Aleya for post Heresy as well.

At some point you have to accept that if everyone gets an amazing last stand or homage that there's diminishing returns. The reason why you don't see it happening a lot to marines in 30K is unfortunately the reality of needing the character's with the big names to survive for their post Heresy identities, that's why you have newer characters like Shadrak Meduson being captured and executed, versus people like Abbadon who keep getting teleported or saved at the last minute.

So many characters need to die in this battle, not all can have multiple chapters dedicated to their heroic death... Some need to die, and die in a manner that is not all that memorable, or heroic or feel like it is even worth it, this is the most desperate lopsided till the end battle ever.

Aash wrote:
I have no issue with Kharn being able to run through a SoS, named character, faction leader or otherwise. At the end of the day she is a human and he is a Space Marine.

I completely get what Abnett was going for here, nobody is safe in the Siege and the shock value of killing off a major character unceremoniously makes a potent point regarding plot armour and tosses out expectations. Equally it does suck that this is really the only character we know in the whole faction, and I can see why it irks the OP.

Evidently Gaunts the luckiest man in the Imperium then.

He has a number of characters die forgotten in the spaceport. But that passage is framed as a joke. What other time has a human character been killed in this fashion. Even Guard at least get the axe. He could have killed her offscreen. He chose an undignified Death.

Well it worked. I hope Kharn falls into a sewer and drowns in it. Although they have organs for that. So he’ll probably crawl out eventually but he’ll never get the smell out.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
So many characters need to die in this battle, not all can have multiple chapters dedicated to their heroic death... Some need to die, and die in a manner that is not all that memorable, or heroic or feel like it is even worth it, this is the most desperate lopsided till the end battle ever.

You could easily have picked a minor SoS lieutenant to fill a similar function. If they’re going to do anything major with Magnus play or the Webway, likely to heavily involve the Sisters, it’s odd to leave them leaderless and without any high ranking characters. I mean I dunno. Might be they’re not going to feature at all in the later Siege books.

Also a better death would be Ahriman as revenge for Prospero. Kharn is just random.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Aash wrote:
I have no issue with Kharn being able to run through a SoS, named character, faction leader or otherwise. At the end of the day she is a human and he is a Space Marine.

I completely get what Abnett was going for here, nobody is safe in the Siege and the shock value of killing off a major character unceremoniously makes a potent point regarding plot armour and tosses out expectations. Equally it does suck that this is really the only character we know in the whole faction, and I can see why it irks the OP.

Evidently Gaunts the luckiest man in the Imperium then.

He has a number of characters die forgotten in the spaceport. But that passage is framed as a joke. What other time has a human character been killed in this fashion. Even Guard at least get the axe. He could have killed her offscreen. He chose an undignified Death.

Well it worked. I hope Kharn falls into a sewer and drowns in it. Although they have organs for that. So he’ll probably crawl out eventually but he’ll never get the smell out.




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endlesswaltz123 wrote:
So many characters need to die in this battle, not all can have multiple chapters dedicated to their heroic death... Some need to die, and die in a manner that is not all that memorable, or heroic or feel like it is even worth it, this is the most desperate lopsided till the end battle ever.

You could easily have picked a minor SoS lieutenant to fill a similar function. If they’re going to do anything major with Magnus play or the Webway, likely to heavily involve the Sisters, it’s odd to leave them leaderless and without any high ranking characters. I mean I dunno. Might be they’re not going to feature at all in the later Siege books.

Also a better death would be Ahriman as revenge for Prospero. Kharn is just random.

It's funny you mention Kharn because he DOES supposedly die on a pile of bodies in the Siege of Terra based on the old fluff about him, he just comes back to life when the World Eaters recover his corpse when they retreat from Terra. So we'll see but Kharn may die just as ignominously as Krole does.

Well chances are that if Magnus is involved in the Webway, it's going to be mainly a showdown between Malcador/the Emperor with him, since even if the SoS are there, they won't be the focal point since they're not going to pass up on super DBZ psyker duels between them. Not to mention that it's the collective null aura of the SoS that make a difference, not just one of them, even if its Krole, otherwise they wouldn't work in squads.

Saint Celestine is a Saint

Clue was in the name all along, you silly Goose!

 Grimskul wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Aash wrote:
I have no issue with Kharn being able to run through a SoS, named character, faction leader or otherwise. At the end of the day she is a human and he is a Space Marine.

I completely get what Abnett was going for here, nobody is safe in the Siege and the shock value of killing off a major character unceremoniously makes a potent point regarding plot armour and tosses out expectations. Equally it does suck that this is really the only character we know in the whole faction, and I can see why it irks the OP.

Evidently Gaunts the luckiest man in the Imperium then.

He has a number of characters die forgotten in the spaceport. But that passage is framed as a joke. What other time has a human character been killed in this fashion. Even Guard at least get the axe. He could have killed her offscreen. He chose an undignified Death.

Well it worked. I hope Kharn falls into a sewer and drowns in it. Although they have organs for that. So he’ll probably crawl out eventually but he’ll never get the smell out.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
So many characters need to die in this battle, not all can have multiple chapters dedicated to their heroic death... Some need to die, and die in a manner that is not all that memorable, or heroic or feel like it is even worth it, this is the most desperate lopsided till the end battle ever.

You could easily have picked a minor SoS lieutenant to fill a similar function. If they’re going to do anything major with Magnus play or the Webway, likely to heavily involve the Sisters, it’s odd to leave them leaderless and without any high ranking characters. I mean I dunno. Might be they’re not going to feature at all in the later Siege books.

Also a better death would be Ahriman as revenge for Prospero. Kharn is just random.

It's funny you mention Kharn because he DOES supposedly die on a pile of bodies in the Siege of Terra based on the old fluff about him, he just comes back to life when the World Eaters recover his corpse when they retreat from Terra. So we'll see but Kharn may die just as ignominously as Krole does.

Well chances are that if Magnus is involved in the Webway, it's going to be mainly a showdown between Malcador/the Emperor with him, since even if the SoS are there, they won't be the focal point since they're not going to pass up on super DBZ psyker duels between them. Not to mention that it's the collective null aura of the SoS that make a difference, not just one of them, even if its Krole, otherwise they wouldn't work in squads.

Good. I think any effort to humanise him from Betrayer is out the window now for me. I want him humiliated.

Even if they aren’t the focal point they’d probably still be there. Mentioned before but they were at Prospero. There is some beef here along with the Custodians and Space Wolves. You’d have to go from named special character to Miss Substitute. Valdor stood there being like who the hell are you and where did Krole wander off to?It’s basically a downward spiral for the faction. They did tease that there was going to be a massive escalation in the chaos infestation and demonic incursions. Army of nulls would normally be useful in that situation so kind of sucks Dan offed their only character. When you would expect them to be more prominent they’ll have no POV.


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Saint Celestine is a Saint

Clue was in the name all along, you silly Goose!

Her powers are well laid out. Resurrection and her faith protects her like an energy shield. Tears that heal. No super strength. No super speed. No super toughness. That’s done by the wargear she wears. Which is entirely equivalent to Krole. However one can go toe to toe with Kharne and the other gets splatted? It has nothing to do with power level and canon. Dan wanted a bit of dark humour with this character whereas in Gathering Storm they wanted Celestine to be Gandalf the Gold facing off the Witch King. Whilst in the Alpha Legion books she’s meant to be a worthy kill for Lharn as a champion of the emperor and so they had to put her on a level. There is not that massive a gap between Krole and Celestine.

Saint Wargear and Powers which you're conveniently skipping.

Honestly the OP has chosen such a bad hill to die on I'm kinda glad Krole died in a non-epic manner. Not every named Character has to die in some epic fight, anyway.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Which amounts to her being a str3 t3 character in power armour reliant on wargear. Why didn’t Abaddon just run into her?

Are you asking why in the context of the fluff, or in the context of the game rules?

In the context of the fluff - he did, when she was depowered.

In the context of the game rules - don't try to fit game rules to story plots.

A.T. wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Which amounts to her being a str3 t3 character in power armour reliant on wargear. Why didn’t Abaddon just run into her?

Are you asking why in the context of the fluff, or in the context of the game rules?

In the context of the fluff - he did, when she was depowered.

In the context of the game rules - don't try to fit game rules to story plots.

He killed her with a melee weapon (two mythical weapons with magical properties BTW a Primarch killer and a god killer) because it would have probably been degrading and humiliating to the character and the entire faction had that happened. If Abaddon ran into her and she exploded it would really not work with the tone and the characters image.

The point is that it was an utterly humiliating way to kill the character. Even random guardsmen get better deaths than that. Doing that to the poster character of a supposedly elite faction is a degrading act of vandalism. Dan had the option of just letting the screen fade to black. To include that paragraph is backhanded and a poor joke.

I do not have read the book and therefore may be missing something but from your excerpt alone I don't get at all how you could come to the conclusion, that Kharn run her over. There is just not enough to suggest that, and enough to go against it, i.e. the bloody axe, which implies that he actually fought her in blind rage.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Saint Wargear and Powers which you're conveniently skipping.

Honestly the OP has chosen such a bad hill to die on I'm kinda glad Krole died in a non-epic manner. Not every named Character has to die in some epic fight, anyway.

It’s not that the character didn’t get an epic fight. I don’t care how many world eaters she kills because it’s irrelevant. Same reason one tactical nuke isn’t lobbed at their human wave assaults. There’s always magically more of them. The point is that a character like Celestine has a degree of dignity even if they lose or are killed. That paragraph is only intended to humiliate the character and the faction. We’re not taking an anticlimactic end. It’s borderline spiteful towards her and the faction. Yeah we’re going to have the poster child pasted by Kharn and he won’t even realise. It’ll be so funny how easily he kills her. You have the option of screen fades to black and single out this character for that kind of humiliation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadox wrote:
I do not have read the book and therefore may be missing something but from your excerpt alone I don't get at all how you could come to the conclusion, that Kharn run her over. There is just not enough to suggest that, and enough to go against it, i.e. the bloody axe, which implies that he actually fought her in blind rage.

His axe is always bloody. This is whilst storming a spaceport so he’s went through thousands of people at this point.

There’s a strong emphasis on how strong Kharn is, the World Eaters are described as trampling things underfoot with Krole turning to wonder if she’ll be remembered. Then her thoughts are abruptly cut off. No entering a fight. No swings. Just a transition straight to Kharn who’s like what.Perhaps Dan left it ambivalent. But I think he was being tongue in cheek here and implying she hit the Khorne Train. No I really put this down as dark humour. He wants to stress that shes just another number and beneath the notice of Kharn. That story entails a humiliating death. Not, oh they had an epic duel but it was offscreen because he was in a rage. No this is bug on a windshield.

I am wondering what would be a satisfying way for Kharn to “die”. Really, screw this guy. None of this, oh but he used to be such an honourable warrior it’s so sad. Look how he cares for that one ship captain. He’s a maggot. Hopefully some guard lobs an earth shaker shell and pastes him. Runs onto a landmine because he wasn’t paying attention. Maybe he doesn’t see a world eater baneblade track as it rolls over him. I mean if he isn’t even paying attention that’s what would happen to you.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
There is not that massive a gap between Krole and Celestine.

Evidently there is, because one can fight Kharn and hold her own and the other is trampled underfoot.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
There is not that massive a gap between Krole and Celestine.

Evidently there is, because one can fight Kharn and hold her own and the other is trampled underfoot.

Merry Christmas to you as well.

"As the port fell, Krole slew many World Eaters but was confronted by Captain Kharn, now swelling with the powers of Khorne. She engaged him in battle, but was slain by the berserk World Eater, who was not certain what he had just slain due to Krole's near-invisibility."

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Jenetia_Krole

*Shrug* honestly, hadn't even heard of her before this thread.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

I am wondering what would be a satisfying way for Kharn to “die”. Really, screw this guy. None of this, oh but he used to be such an honourable warrior it’s so sad. Look how he cares for that one ship captain. He’s a maggot. Hopefully some guard lobs an earth shaker shell and pastes him. Runs onto a landmine because he wasn’t paying attention. Maybe he doesn’t see a world eater baneblade track as it rolls over him. I mean if he isn’t even paying attention that’s what would happen to you.

TBF, there has been a sort of discrepancy regarding Khorne champions and their fighting prowess since forever.
On the other hand, they have always been Chaos' top tier close combat specialists in both lore and gameplay, with stats like WS 2+ rerolling ones and the like.
On the other hand, their fighting style is usually described as a non-stop rage-blinded hackfest.
One quality does not really sit well with the other.

Crispy78 wrote:
"As the port fell, Krole slew many World Eaters but was confronted by Captain Kharn, now swelling with the powers of Khorne. She engaged him in battle, but was slain by the berserk World Eater, who was not certain what he had just slain due to Krole's near-invisibility."

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Jenetia_Krole

*Shrug* honestly, hadn't even heard of her before this thread.

She’s the leader of the Sisters of Silence who was hand picked by the Emperor and granted one of his swords to wield. She commanded the Sisters on Prospero where she killed many of the Thousand Sons sorcerers who apparently forgot they were Space Marines. Should have just rugby tackled her.

There’s a lot more of the character in the Forgeworld Black Book and that’s not surprising considering they make the majority of the army range such as it is. BL hasn’t done much with them.

I mean they’ve started implying Custodians can weaken demons by their presence apparently. But an army of Nulls has no utility when you’re fighting Chaos. It should not be difficult to involve the faction. Like, the leader of this faction just gets up and wanders out the High Council and nobody realises. That’s kind of a meme. Can you imagine if late books they have to you turn and be like oh yeah, demonic invasion. I can’t fight an enemy that can look at reality and say no. Shame I misplaced the leader of this faction.

Crispy78 wrote:
"As the port fell, Krole slew many World Eaters but was confronted by Captain Kharn, now swelling with the powers of Khorne. She engaged him in battle, but was slain by the berserk World Eater, who was not certain what he had just slain due to Krole's near-invisibility."

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Jenetia_Krole

*Shrug* honestly, hadn't even heard of her before this thread.

Kharn hits everything on a 2+, remember that!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Saint Wargear and Powers which you're conveniently skipping.

Honestly the OP has chosen such a bad hill to die on I'm kinda glad Krole died in a non-epic manner. Not every named Character has to die in some epic fight, anyway.

It’s not that the character didn’t get an epic fight. I don’t care how many world eaters she kills because it’s irrelevant. Same reason one tactical nuke isn’t lobbed at their human wave assaults. There’s always magically more of them. The point is that a character like Celestine has a degree of dignity even if they lose or are killed. That paragraph is only intended to humiliate the character and the faction. We’re not taking an anticlimactic end. It’s borderline spiteful towards her and the faction. Yeah we’re going to have the poster child pasted by Kharn and he won’t even realise. It’ll be so funny how easily he kills her. You have the option of screen fades to black and single out this character for that kind of humiliation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadox wrote:
I do not have read the book and therefore may be missing something but from your excerpt alone I don't get at all how you could come to the conclusion, that Kharn run her over. There is just not enough to suggest that, and enough to go against it, i.e. the bloody axe, which implies that he actually fought her in blind rage.

His axe is always bloody. This is whilst storming a spaceport so he’s went through thousands of people at this point.

There’s a strong emphasis on how strong Kharn is, the World Eaters are described as trampling things underfoot with Krole turning to wonder if she’ll be remembered. Then her thoughts are abruptly cut off. No entering a fight. No swings. Just a transition straight to Kharn who’s like what.Perhaps Dan left it ambivalent. But I think he was being tongue in cheek here and implying she hit the Khorne Train. No I really put this down as dark humour. He wants to stress that shes just another number and beneath the notice of Kharn. That story entails a humiliating death. Not, oh they had an epic duel but it was offscreen because he was in a rage. No this is bug on a windshield.

I am wondering what would be a satisfying way for Kharn to “die”. Really, screw this guy. None of this, oh but he used to be such an honourable warrior it’s so sad. Look how he cares for that one ship captain. He’s a maggot. Hopefully some guard lobs an earth shaker shell and pastes him. Runs onto a landmine because he wasn’t paying attention. Maybe he doesn’t see a world eater baneblade track as it rolls over him. I mean if he isn’t even paying attention that’s what would happen to you.

Uh it's humiliating to have a character be killed by Kharn? Once again you're proving 100% you don't know anything about Kharn and his lore. Krole is a totally new creation and frankly she's a nobody, no matter how much you like her. Be lucky it wasn't another random no-name Traitor Captain that killed her.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:
"As the port fell, Krole slew many World Eaters but was confronted by Captain Kharn, now swelling with the powers of Khorne. She engaged him in battle, but was slain by the berserk World Eater, who was not certain what he had just slain due to Krole's near-invisibility."

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Jenetia_Krole

*Shrug* honestly, hadn't even heard of her before this thread.

Kharn hits everything on a 2+, remember that!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Saint Wargear and Powers which you're conveniently skipping.

Honestly the OP has chosen such a bad hill to die on I'm kinda glad Krole died in a non-epic manner. Not every named Character has to die in some epic fight, anyway.

It’s not that the character didn’t get an epic fight. I don’t care how many world eaters she kills because it’s irrelevant. Same reason one tactical nuke isn’t lobbed at their human wave assaults. There’s always magically more of them. The point is that a character like Celestine has a degree of dignity even if they lose or are killed. That paragraph is only intended to humiliate the character and the faction. We’re not taking an anticlimactic end. It’s borderline spiteful towards her and the faction. Yeah we’re going to have the poster child pasted by Kharn and he won’t even realise. It’ll be so funny how easily he kills her. You have the option of screen fades to black and single out this character for that kind of humiliation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadox wrote:
I do not have read the book and therefore may be missing something but from your excerpt alone I don't get at all how you could come to the conclusion, that Kharn run her over. There is just not enough to suggest that, and enough to go against it, i.e. the bloody axe, which implies that he actually fought her in blind rage.

His axe is always bloody. This is whilst storming a spaceport so he’s went through thousands of people at this point.

There’s a strong emphasis on how strong Kharn is, the World Eaters are described as trampling things underfoot with Krole turning to wonder if she’ll be remembered. Then her thoughts are abruptly cut off. No entering a fight. No swings. Just a transition straight to Kharn who’s like what.Perhaps Dan left it ambivalent. But I think he was being tongue in cheek here and implying she hit the Khorne Train. No I really put this down as dark humour. He wants to stress that shes just another number and beneath the notice of Kharn. That story entails a humiliating death. Not, oh they had an epic duel but it was offscreen because he was in a rage. No this is bug on a windshield.

I am wondering what would be a satisfying way for Kharn to “die”. Really, screw this guy. None of this, oh but he used to be such an honourable warrior it’s so sad. Look how he cares for that one ship captain. He’s a maggot. Hopefully some guard lobs an earth shaker shell and pastes him. Runs onto a landmine because he wasn’t paying attention. Maybe he doesn’t see a world eater baneblade track as it rolls over him. I mean if he isn’t even paying attention that’s what would happen to you.

Uh it's humiliating to have a character be killed by Kharn? Once again you're proving 100% you don't know anything about Kharn and his lore. Krole is a totally new creation and frankly she's a nobody, no matter how much you like her. Be lucky it wasn't another random no-name Traitor Captain that killed her.

It’s humiliating to have any character killed by accident by the villain and told they didn’t matter. If that happened to any character it would be humiliating and that was intentional. Ol Pearson gets to be chopped down by Angron who takes the time to grant him a heroic death and he’s just an undercover Solar Auxilia. I’d rather have a random captain kill her in a straight fight than what Dan did here. Easily. It’s not okay because it’s Kharn.

It’s been a few years since I’ve read the paragraph or so in the 3.5 Chaos dex. But the way Dan rights it in Saturnine Khorne could bless any lump of meat and have the same results. He’s clearly just a meat puppet for Khornes power and his fighting style consists of flailing about whilst miraculously not falling over on his own axe. He’s not a man. He’s a weak willed pathetic coward who’s given in to his base nature and become a slave to darkness. Any Guardsman is infinitely more brave and a better human being than that monster. They don’t have sugar daddy Khorne spoon feeding them power to win their battles. So no I am not buying this “ohh but he’s some honourable noble savage dude” and I am not even convinced Dan was driving for that here compared to ADB in Betrayed. Iam just saying. Screw him, it will be good when he realises they’ve lost and his Legion are going to be cursed to ten thousand years of agony. Him and his World Eaters are a joke. The Emperor should have killed Angron and his Legion when he had the chance.

Plus in the passage it’s stated that the number and quality of kills Khorne gets is unimportant to Khorne followers. That’s simply not the case. Khorne certainly cares about the number which is why he’s so keen to collect them and rewards his followers on this basis. Whilst his blood thirsters like Kabandha show great interest in distinguishing the Blood of Sanguinius from the common civilian. They can bleat on about the blood flowing but it’s clearly not all equal. So again, this was Dan driving for a particular theme. Khorne would probably be quite pleased taking the skull of one the Emperors faction leaders.

Perhaps he was forced to include that character in the book by the process (as we know the writers of these novels have some pretty strict rails they have to stay inside) and had no interest in doing so, and this is his FU to the process?

I dunno. I hate the Perpetuals and how they are written and would much rather have that time spent with more interesting characters.

 Da Boss wrote:
Perhaps he was forced to include that character in the book by the process (as we know the writers of these novels have some pretty strict rails they have to stay inside) and had no interest in doing so, and this is his FU to the process?

I dunno. I hate the Perpetuals and how they are written and would much rather have that time spent with more interesting characters.

Yeah I’ve never really got the Perpetuals. I can buy the Emperor being the god of humanity. But humanity being the only species to have X men style Mutants taken to be our Gods. No. That doesn’t make sense. Why wouldn’t Necrons, Eldar and all the other ancient races beyond humanity have such power over immortality?

But that’s the thing. It really makes no sense to use the Sisters of Silence leader at this point in the story. They’re an anti Psyker force involved in the purge of the Thousand Sons. You’re passing up addressing it with the Thousand Sons or the Webway Arcs. You know the more psyker, witch and demon focused stuff. Why not have Ahrihim get revenge for his kin? That’s a much more natural and straight forward play than the leader thinking she needs to go fight alone at this spaceport to die. It’s incredibly random and basically a meme.

Plus, they play on her Null field being strong enough that people don’t notice she’s there and making her invisible. Which is the exact opposite of how Nulls have been depicted. They’re meant to be so soulless and horrific that people are repulsed by them. You know there’s something unnatural and wrong about them. Dan only did this to get that punchline and the meme of nobody at the council realising one of their generals wandered off.

Tbh that was one of my favourite scenes of the book, I found Krole’s story really poetic as a metaphor for how the SoS were treated in general.

Treated as tools rather than people the whole time - even more than Astartes (and that scene where she was used as a human anti bug device really drove it home); and despite the huge and battle turning force multiplication they provided, ultimate ground up by the Siege and forgotten afterwards.

Also, given her invisibility powers, being killed by accident was ultimately the only way she *could* have been killed. Killed by a blow with Gorechild from the infamous Khârn, one of the strongest melee fighters outside the primarchs, is much more fitting than say being hit by a random blast.

Lord Zarkov wrote:
Tbh that was one of my favourite scenes of the book, I found Krole’s story really poetic as a metaphor for how the SoS were treated in general.

Treated as tools rather than people the whole time - even more than Astartes (and that scene where she was used as a human anti bug device really drove it home); and despite the huge and battle turning force multiplication they provided, ultimate ground up by the Siege and forgotten afterwards.

Also, given her invisibility powers, being killed by accident was ultimately the only way she *could* have been killed. Killed by a blow with Gorechild from the infamous Khârn, one of the strongest melee fighters outside the primarchs, is much more fitting than say being hit by a random blast.

That’s because the writers underdeveloped the faction. You have to go look at the FW black book for most of their lore. Because, fun fact, selling expensive models is great incentive to write about them.

It isn’t consistent with the Emperor hand picking her and giving him one of his swords. A trusted confidant. When you see them in Eisenstein they’re taken seriously as the Emperors Agents and have a base on Luna at the Heart of the Imperium. There’s no suggestion they’re disposable tools and that they aren’t valued for their abilities. BL just kind of forgot about them after Prospero.

Why wouldn’t super intelligent Primarches see the value and utility of an army of anti witch and anti warp soldiers in a Chaos Invasion? Well, they haven’t actually been used in the siege yet in any major capacity. It makes the Primarches, especially Mr Empathy Sanguinius, seem incredibly dumb to not place value on something like that. In the Beast Arises the IF Chapter Master comes to that conclusion on his own and seeks them out.

Well, it’s a real shame since Terras gonna be demon invaded in the second half of the series so sucks to be them.

I don’t buy working backwards and trying to make a theme out of the writers opting to under-develop them.

I’d honestly take the artillery shell. It’s a lot more dignified and not a meme.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
The point is that it was an utterly humiliating way to kill the character. Even random guardsmen get better deaths than that.

Didn't Kharn get randomly run over by a passing tank in his first big fight?

Kharn the Betrayer: "Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the..." (crunch)
Driver: "Did you hear that?"
Gunner: "Something about scones?"
Driver: "mmmm. Scones."
Kharn the Hood Ornament: "I'll get you next time Loken! Next tiiiiiiiime!" (fades off into the distance)

I mean I get your point, why include a named character if they are going to step out of the transport onto a landmine in the first five minutes. But i've not read the book for context - was this some big 'and the world is overrun and everyone dies, no exceptions' kind of ending or did Krole do literally nothing except drop her name and get run over?

A.T. wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
The point is that it was an utterly humiliating way to kill the character. Even random guardsmen get better deaths than that.

Didn't Kharn get randomly run over by a passing tank in his first big fight?

Kharn the Betrayer: "Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the..." (crunch)
Driver: "Did you hear that?"
Gunner: "Something about scones?"
Driver: "mmmm. Scones."
Kharn the Hood Ornament: "I'll get you next time Loken! Next tiiiiiiiime!" (fades off into the distance)

I mean I get your point, why include a named character if they are going to step out of the transport onto a landmine in the first five minutes. But i've not read the book for context - was this some big 'and the world is overrun and everyone dies, no exceptions' kind of ending or did Krole do literally nothing except drop her name and get run over?

After he fought Loken and it’s a team rocket blasting off again moment; he doesn’t actually die die. The intent was to push Loken being a good fighter and contrast the change to his earlier appearance in the novel.

There is a whole subplot where she goes to this spaceport (suspiciously undermanned BTW) to help the common soldiers in their last stand. The excerpt is basically the last section of that.

Giving some context to Kroles demise in Saturnine.
She dispatches numerous World Eater 'named and famed' Captains and Warlords before she has the misfortune to be run over by Kharn. Absolutely spanks them. She takes enough scalps to embarrass the relative few 'heroes' the galaxy has at this time

Also in context Angron and Kharn are at the height of their patron gods favour. Kharn is keeping up with Angron skull for skull at this point. he has even been directly guide by Khornes spirt earlier in the campaign when teeing up The Iron Lords Lt to start blood letting.

Krole had no chance against one of the two most important champions Khorne has at that moment in history. She would have been absolutely mullered in direct face to face combat.

The premier blank would have been left as mush under the full weight of a gods rage and anger made flesh.

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Giving some context to Kroles demise in Saturnine.
She dispatches numerous World Eater 'named and famed' Captains and Warlords before she has the misfortune to be run over by Kharn. Absolutely spanks them. She takes enough scalps to embarrass the relative few 'heroes' the galaxy has at this time

Also in context Angron and Kharn are at the height of their patron gods favour. Kharn is keeping up with Angron skull for skull at this point. he has even been directly guide by Khornes spirt earlier in the campaign when teeing up The Iron Lords Lt to start blood letting.

Krole had no chance against one of the two most important champions Khorne has at that moment in history. She would have been absolutely mullered in direct face to face combat.

The premier blank would have been left as mush under the full weight of a gods rage and anger made flesh.

Which amounts to the buildup to a punchline.

If Dan had simply faded to black, it would be weird that she’d wandered off and died like that. Another missed opportunity with the faction. But no no. Had to put a humiliating paragraph in before moving on to his perpetual character getting a heroic death.

Ultimately that’s hitting the random name generator. These are nobody characters who get respawned because reasons. Show don’t tell. Functionally she could kill ten thousand World Eaters and it would not impact the plot. Just like Dorns army killing 20 thousand Emperors Children is irrelevant. Frankly a few heavy bolters should be enough to kill a Legion who mindlessly advances over open ground like that without fire support or sanity. Especially when Nulls and the Emperor should be shutting down their warp reality bending nonsense thats a crutch for everything that faction does.

Oh yeah I rely on magic blood mist to shield my army from bullets and artillery. I rely on unnatural healing to recover from gun wounds that would blow a normal space marine in two. What’s that? Oh yeah that all turns off the second you go near a Null. At the very least their casualties should skyrocket in every fight. There shouldn’t be any world eaters left if they’re fighting like this. They are totally reliant on Chaos to pull off what they’re doing. It’s not skill. It’s magic. That should not be immune to the presence of Nulls. Cut that and they die like flies because they’re too dumb to fight like a real army anymore.You think Angron and his meatheads would stand a chance against the Emperor and his Talons? Oh they storm an empty spaceport. Ohhh. I am so impressed.

I'd rather SoS had some named characters in current-timeline 40k. I could give a toss about HH-era characters.

Khârn should be terrifying in melee though. He should be able to take on Primarchs.

Hecaton wrote:
I'd rather SoS had some named characters in current-timeline 40k. I could give a toss about HH-era characters.

Khârn should be terrifying in melee though. He should be able to take on Primarchs.

I feel like kharn gets a bit overrated here. Him being able to kill krole rather easily makes sense, I just agree with a point made earlier that the scene could have been handled better from a storytelling perspective.

But kharn taking on Primarchs? Yeah no chance, even now being one of khornes favorites he'd get roflstomped so hard. Him being a problem for most everyone else short something like greater demons and c'tan? Any time of the day, dude's terrifying.

Edit: also we have one named SoS character in 40k: Aleya from watchers of the throne. And I think she is actually quite well written, which is nice.

I feel like you're talking past everybody at this point OP, like you're within your rights to hate the scene on a personal note, but I think at this point it's been established that Krole dying to Kharn is neither unrealistic nor out of the realm of the fluff. It's not like she hasn't done anything the whole book, she has killed high ranking marines and contributed to what she can do against the traitors, but against what is basically a force of nature she kicks the bucket.

Tiberias wrote:
But kharn taking on Primarchs? Yeah no chance, even now being one of khornes favorites he'd get roflstomped so hard. Him being a problem for most everyone else short something like greater demons and c'tan? Any time of the day, dude's terrifying.

My point is that if he isn't, he should be. Primarchs have also been portrayed as being at varying levels of power with respect to regular Astartes, and ditto for Astartes compared to normal humans.

Hecaton wrote:
I'd rather SoS had some named characters in current-timeline 40k. I could give a toss about HH-era characters.

Khârn should be terrifying in melee though. He should be able to take on Primarchs.

In what sense? We’ve had a fair few novels and short stories. Plus in the Dawn of Fire series looks like Ebon Chalice will be featuring so they are being put into a multi book story as well.

In terms of characters with models they only just got a range refresh. I imagine if they were popular enough we will see additional characters added. Which probably would entail a tie in novel down the road. I could certainly see a Bloody Rose named character down the line.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
I'd rather SoS had some named characters in current-timeline 40k. I could give a toss about HH-era characters.

Khârn should be terrifying in melee though. He should be able to take on Primarchs.

In what sense? We’ve had a fair few novels and short stories. Plus in the Dawn of Fire series looks like Ebon Chalice will be featuring so they are being put into a multi book story as well.

In terms of characters with models they only just got a range refresh. I imagine if they were popular enough we will see additional characters added. Which probably would entail a tie in novel down the road. I could certainly see a Bloody Rose named character down the line.

Sisters of Silence, not Sisters of Battle.

 Grimskul wrote:
I feel like you're talking past everybody at this point OP, like you're within your rights to hate the scene on a personal note, but I think at this point it's been established that Krole dying to Kharn is neither unrealistic nor out of the realm of the fluff. It's not like she hasn't done anything the whole book, she has killed high ranking marines and contributed to what she can do against the traitors, but against what is basically a force of nature she kicks the bucket.

I am rather skeptical that it’s going to factor into the plot that the World Eaters have had fifty “champions” killed. It would be backhanded for Dan Abnett to say the character does not matter and then a later writer make a big deal about it. As no rank is given you can’t ascertain if she’s just killing a tactical marine or a Praetor. Plus, since they’re clearly just meat bags relying on Khorne to herd them into the battle and direct their blows; Kind of doesn’t matter how many of them die. You can’t gut the command structure of an angry mob.

Frankly I think Dan only listed off the name generator of World Eater characters to add to the joke. Plus, I dunno, the editor probably thought was a bit much to have her steamrolled by Kharn without stabbing a few random tactical marines. Branding and what not. But it’s almost an afterthought. Everything from her powers builds to that throwaway joke.




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Hecaton wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
I'd rather SoS had some named characters in current-timeline 40k. I could give a toss about HH-era characters.

Khârn should be terrifying in melee though. He should be able to take on Primarchs.

In what sense? We’ve had a fair few novels and short stories. Plus in the Dawn of Fire series looks like Ebon Chalice will be featuring so they are being put into a multi book story as well.

In terms of characters with models they only just got a range refresh. I imagine if they were popular enough we will see additional characters added. Which probably would entail a tie in novel down the road. I could certainly see a Bloody Rose named character down the line.

Sisters of Silence, not Sisters of Battle.

They’d need to have an army release similar to Custodians before that happens. FW handles their lore because they have a few kits. GW only has one.

Hecaton wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
But kharn taking on Primarchs? Yeah no chance, even now being one of khornes favorites he'd get roflstomped so hard. Him being a problem for most everyone else short something like greater demons and c'tan? Any time of the day, dude's terrifying.

My point is that if he isn't, he should be. Primarchs have also been portrayed as being at varying levels of power with respect to regular Astartes, and ditto for Astartes compared to normal humans.

Agree to disagree here, he really shouldn't be and should not be portrayed that way. Kharn isn't even the best mortal fighter around in my opinion, if you go by melee prowess and sheer skill alone that title probably belongs to lelith hesperax. Kharn beating up normal custodians I can also see, but trajann valoris could most likely give him a run for his money and he is not primarch tier even though he is currently the most powerful warrior of the adeptus custodes (valdor not included who would also stomp kharn). Hell, he gets memed on a lot but abaddon could take kharn on a good day and he is definitely not primarch tier.
Kharn is an absolute melee monster and a nightmare to deal with for almost every warrior in the galaxy, but he is not primarch tier that would make zero sense.

Tiberias wrote:
Agree to disagree here, he really shouldn't be and should not be portrayed that way. Kharn isn't even the best mortal fighter around in my opinion, if you go by melee prowess and sheer skill alone that title probably belongs to lelith hesperax.

Nah, the rules have pretty consistently portrayed Khârn as being a cut above; in most editions he had rules that would bypass the normal rules for hitting in close combat. I think there's a strong argument that Khârn is the most skilled melee combatant in 40k.

Tiberias wrote:
Kharn beating up normal custodians I can also see, but trajann valoris could most likely give him a run for his money and he is not primarch tier even though he is currently the most powerful warrior of the adeptus custodes (valdor not included who would also stomp kharn). Hell, he gets memed on a lot but abaddon could take kharn on a good day and he is definitely not primarch tier.
Kharn is an absolute melee monster and a nightmare to deal with for almost every warrior in the galaxy, but he is not primarch tier that would make zero sense.

I think it would have made much more narrative sense for Khârn to be capable of challenging a Primarch in a duel. The idea of "only Primarchs matter, and nobody in the modern 40k universe matters except awakened Primarchs" is toxic to the narrative.

Hecaton wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
Agree to disagree here, he really shouldn't be and should not be portrayed that way. Kharn isn't even the best mortal fighter around in my opinion, if you go by melee prowess and sheer skill alone that title probably belongs to lelith hesperax.

Nah, the rules have pretty consistently portrayed Khârn as being a cut above; in most editions he had rules that would bypass the normal rules for hitting in close combat. I think there's a strong argument that Khârn is the most skilled melee combatant in 40k.

Tiberias wrote:
Kharn beating up normal custodians I can also see, but trajann valoris could most likely give him a run for his money and he is not primarch tier even though he is currently the most powerful warrior of the adeptus custodes (valdor not included who would also stomp kharn). Hell, he gets memed on a lot but abaddon could take kharn on a good day and he is definitely not primarch tier.
Kharn is an absolute melee monster and a nightmare to deal with for almost every warrior in the galaxy, but he is not primarch tier that would make zero sense.

I think it would have made much more narrative sense for Khârn to be capable of challenging a Primarch in a duel. The idea of "only Primarchs matter, and nobody in the modern 40k universe matters except awakened Primarchs" is toxic to the narrative.

I wholeheartedly agree with the second part. That is why I think the swarmlord for example should be closer to primarch tier. Avatars of khaine should be a way bigger threat and not constantly used to make space marines look cool. Phoenix lords should be portrayed more powerful on the lore. So awakened primarchs should not be the lone top dogs, but they are way up there. So yeah whether you like guilliman or not, he may not be the best warrior compared to his other brothers, but in the current setting he simply is one of the top dogs when it comes to combat prowess (I'm not talking about warp shenanigans, cause that skews every comparison).

Edit: many people say that comparing in-lore powerlevels is stupid and I can unterstand why, but in my opinion portraying in-lore powerlevels for a war game setting like 40k where combat simply is a primary focus of the fluff, is supremely important. And it is even more important to do them constistently in my opinion.
So, portraying primarchs as these supremely powerful mythical figures is fine as long as you give the other factions mythical characters that are a threat to them. And GW has failed to that for many factions.

Editedit: Considering all that, kharn shouldn't be able to challenge a primarch in a duel imo.

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Giving some context to Kroles demise in Saturnine.
She dispatches numerous World Eater 'named and famed' Captains and Warlords before she has the misfortune to be run over by Kharn. Absolutely spanks them. She takes enough scalps to embarrass the relative few 'heroes' the galaxy has at this time

Also in context Angron and Kharn are at the height of their patron gods favour. Kharn is keeping up with Angron skull for skull at this point. he has even been directly guide by Khornes spirt earlier in the campaign when teeing up The Iron Lords Lt to start blood letting.

Krole had no chance against one of the two most important champions Khorne has at that moment in history. She would have been absolutely mullered in direct face to face combat.

The premier blank would have been left as mush under the full weight of a gods rage and anger made flesh.

So some no-name character that was recently introduced and just human overall happened to be able to kill a bunch of Captains for the Marine Legion all about gladiatorial combat?

If anything the OP is completely off base. That reeks of Mary Sue. OP should be glad she even got as much as she did.

Hecaton wrote:
I'd rather SoS had some named characters in current-timeline 40k. I could give a toss about HH-era characters.

Khârn should be terrifying in melee though. He should be able to take on Primarchs.

Nah, if anything Kharn and the World Eaters in general should be portrayed as the incompetent and laughably easy to kill butt monkeys of 40k, only a threat when massively outnumbering their opposition and dying in droves to any respectable Legion. Basically Orks in power armour, only much less competent.

Because that's how a stupid "make landfall and then scatter in every direction looking for manfights" Legion should be regarded as.

Either make them competent or make them incompetent, don't make them act like drooling morons and then pretend that the setting should take them seriously.

This scene would be better if Kharn was unceremoniously ripped to pieces by a fusillade of heavy bolter, plasma, or whatever shots as he ran headlong through an open field waving his axe like the stupid idiot he is.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Giving some context to Kroles demise in Saturnine.
She dispatches numerous World Eater 'named and famed' Captains and Warlords before she has the misfortune to be run over by Kharn. Absolutely spanks them. She takes enough scalps to embarrass the relative few 'heroes' the galaxy has at this time

Also in context Angron and Kharn are at the height of their patron gods favour. Kharn is keeping up with Angron skull for skull at this point. he has even been directly guide by Khornes spirt earlier in the campaign when teeing up The Iron Lords Lt to start blood letting.

Krole had no chance against one of the two most important champions Khorne has at that moment in history. She would have been absolutely mullered in direct face to face combat.

The premier blank would have been left as mush under the full weight of a gods rage and anger made flesh.

So some no-name character that was recently introduced and just human overall happened to be able to kill a bunch of Captains for the Marine Legion all about gladiatorial combat?

If anything the OP is completely off base. That reeks of Mary Sue. OP should be glad she even got as much as she did.

The characters been around for while, has a model and all that. However it’s Forgeworld and not a Primarch. She’s the leader of the Sisters of Silence during the Horus Heresy and if you read the Black Book on Prospero makes a big deal out of her.

Killing World Eater tactical marines is not impressive and has no actual bearing on the story. Give a Guardsman a heavy bolter and you’d have the same results. Basically there’s one page where it’s lists two centurions, a number of other names (15 I think) and “I have killed many, many World Eaters”. Given that she gets trampled unceremoniously by Khan three pages later I take that to be build up to a punchline. It’s not done with the intent of emphasising her as powerful. The loyalists lose the battle and everybody dies. Plus the World Eaters lose nobody important and they have limitless numbers. The author literally makes the point that “the numbers don’t matter and they never did”. So he emphatically says that her killing however many World Eaters be it a dozen or a thousand is irrelevant. That’s the context and moral of the story Dan sets out. Whether it’s a valid point is another matter. He literally has her list fifteen names and then goes nope. Not important. You have to view it in that context. It’s setup for a joke.

Although, to critique Dan on that. If there’s a hundred thousand World Eaters and you kill a hundred thousand world eaters well; numbers would kind of matter at that point.





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 Void__Dragon wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
I'd rather SoS had some named characters in current-timeline 40k. I could give a toss about HH-era characters.

Khârn should be terrifying in melee though. He should be able to take on Primarchs.

Nah, if anything Kharn and the World Eaters in general should be portrayed as the incompetent and laughably easy to kill butt monkeys of 40k, only a threat when massively outnumbering their opposition and dying in droves to any respectable Legion. Basically Orks in power armour, only much less competent.

Because that's how a stupid "make landfall and then scatter in every direction looking for manfights" Legion should be regarded as.

Either make them competent or make them incompetent, don't make them act like drooling morons and then pretend that the setting should take them seriously.

This scene would be better if Kharn was unceremoniously ripped to pieces by a fusillade of heavy bolter, plasma, or whatever shots as he ran headlong through an open field waving his axe like the stupid idiot he is.

My head canon for it is that Khorne is basically pulling a “Battle Meditation” to guide his followers and allow them to make these improbable charges. Essentially a God is looking at reality and saying no. I mean earlier on they blow Angron up with the spaceport guns and he just reforms rather than be banished to the warp for a few thousand years like last time. Coz reasons.

I mean in Pharos they have three militia heavy bolters cut down thirty Night Lords in the open. They only get out of losing more because they had jump packs and training to quickly take the position. If they’re not immune to something as light as a heavy bolter how could they survive charging the Walls of Terra?

Dan Abnett is simultaneously one of the best, and WORST writers for the black Library. He can write amazing characters with deep and interesting back stories like Gaunt, and with the same pen and ink create Bolter trash that defies all lore and logic like Brothers of the Snake or the Eisenhorn series. He is not to be trusted at all with the lore.

The fact that we are talking about a SoS even being close to Kharn is laughable. Kharn can and has slaughtered the mightiest foes in the galaxy, save for the Emperor or a Custodian he's kinda on his own level. Stop even trying to push this. It's like back when someone tried to say the SoB are equal to the Astartes.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Dan Abnett is simultaneously one of the best, and WORST writers for the black Library. He can write amazing characters with deep and interesting back stories like Gaunt, and with the same pen and ink create Bolter trash that defies all lore and logic like Brothers of the Snake or the Eisenhorn series. He is not to be trusted at all with the lore.

The fact that we are talking about a SoS even being close to Kharn is laughable. Kharn can and has slaughtered the mightiest foes in the galaxy, save for the Emperor or a Custodian he's kinda on his own level. Stop even trying to push this. It's like back when someone tried to say the SoB are equal to the Astartes.

... wut?

BrianDavion wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Dan Abnett is simultaneously one of the best, and WORST writers for the black Library. He can write amazing characters with deep and interesting back stories like Gaunt, and with the same pen and ink create Bolter trash that defies all lore and logic like Brothers of the Snake or the Eisenhorn series. He is not to be trusted at all with the lore.

The fact that we are talking about a SoS even being close to Kharn is laughable. Kharn can and has slaughtered the mightiest foes in the galaxy, save for the Emperor or a Custodian he's kinda on his own level. Stop even trying to push this. It's like back when someone tried to say the SoB are equal to the Astartes.

... wut?

Eisenhorn he wrote a part where a Psyker literally destroys a fricking Emperor Titan with a paltry ass daemon host. The same guy gets routinely beaten up by random humans. Then in Brothers of the snake he has a single SM battle brother sneak up on and take down 5 Dark Eldar in hand to hand, before they could even tell he was there. But the same brother later gets beat up by a pack of orks. Dan Abnet is all over the place with his lore. It's convienent plot logic, and it's lazy. At least Gaunt is consistent.

Tiberias wrote:
Considering all that, kharn shouldn't be able to challenge a primarch in a duel imo.

Well, I disagree, because I think it makes for bad narrative design that he isn't. Even if he can't challenge a primarch, though, it wouldn't be for skill, just raw strength, gear, and psychic potential. He's been consistently portrayed as a superlatively skilled combatant (best in the game) across multiple editions.


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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The fact that we are talking about a SoS even being close to Kharn is laughable. Kharn can and has slaughtered the mightiest foes in the galaxy, save for the Emperor or a Custodian he's kinda on his own level.

I mean, Khârn should be able to slap a basic bitch Custodian's gak.


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 Void__Dragon wrote:

Nah, if anything Kharn and the World Eaters in general should be portrayed as the incompetent and laughably easy to kill butt monkeys of 40k, only a threat when massively outnumbering their opposition and dying in droves to any respectable Legion. Basically Orks in power armour, only much less competent.

Because that's how a stupid "make landfall and then scatter in every direction looking for manfights" Legion should be regarded as.

Either make them competent or make them incompetent, don't make them act like drooling morons and then pretend that the setting should take them seriously.

This scene would be better if Kharn was unceremoniously ripped to pieces by a fusillade of heavy bolter, plasma, or whatever shots as he ran headlong through an open field waving his axe like the stupid idiot he is.

I generally lean towards "incredibly bloodthirsty, but competent" portrayals of World Eaters. Do you think that's not how they should be? If so, why do you think they should be portrayed as uniquely incompetent compared to the other Legions?

Hecaton wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
Considering all that, kharn shouldn't be able to challenge a primarch in a duel imo.

Well, I disagree, because I think it makes for bad narrative design that he isn't. Even if he can't challenge a primarch, though, it wouldn't be for skill, just raw strength, gear, and psychic potential. He's been consistently portrayed as a superlatively skilled combatant (best in the game) across multiple editions.


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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The fact that we are talking about a SoS even being close to Kharn is laughable. Kharn can and has slaughtered the mightiest foes in the galaxy, save for the Emperor or a Custodian he's kinda on his own level.

I mean, Khârn should be able to slap a basic bitch Custodian's gak.


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 Void__Dragon wrote:

Nah, if anything Kharn and the World Eaters in general should be portrayed as the incompetent and laughably easy to kill butt monkeys of 40k, only a threat when massively outnumbering their opposition and dying in droves to any respectable Legion. Basically Orks in power armour, only much less competent.

Because that's how a stupid "make landfall and then scatter in every direction looking for manfights" Legion should be regarded as.

Either make them competent or make them incompetent, don't make them act like drooling morons and then pretend that the setting should take them seriously.

This scene would be better if Kharn was unceremoniously ripped to pieces by a fusillade of heavy bolter, plasma, or whatever shots as he ran headlong through an open field waving his axe like the stupid idiot he is.

I generally lean towards "incredibly bloodthirsty, but competent" portrayals of World Eaters. Do you think that's not how they should be? If so, why do you think they should be portrayed as uniquely incompetent compared to the other Legions?

Unfortunately, the way Primarchs have been written so far has made them Highlander characters, where only Primarchs can basically perma-kill one another in a duel unless they choose to allow their non-Primarch duelist to kill them (i.e. Konrad Kurze). The only character that is implied to have died through non-Primarch methods is Dorn and it's more like he's MIA since all they found left was his hand and not the whole body.

Kharn should definitely be able to handle the average Custodes though, given that Valerian, a Shield Captain, who had taken down guys like Bloodthirsters and worse, didn't know if he could outright beat Asterion Moloc when he analyzed him for weakness despite him just being a juiced up Chapter Master. So you bet your butt that Kharn, the chosen mortal of Khorne, would give most Custodes a run for their money.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Eisenhorn he wrote a part where a Psyker literally destroys a fricking Emperor Titan with a paltry ass daemon host. The same guy gets routinely beaten up by random humans. Then in Brothers of the snake he has a single SM battle brother sneak up on and take down 5 Dark Eldar in hand to hand, before they could even tell he was there. But the same brother later gets beat up by a pack of orks. Dan Abnet is all over the place with his lore. It's convienent plot logic, and it's lazy. At least Gaunt is consistent.

It was a warlord Titan, and Cherubael was summoned as raw Warp essence with unrestrained power, and he used up almost all of his power killing that Warlord Titan. Which explains why Eisenhorn was able to then survive Cherubael's assault.

What does Eisenhorn getting beaten up by random humans have to do with anything?


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Hecaton wrote:


I generally lean towards "incredibly bloodthirsty, but competent" portrayals of World Eaters. Do you think that's not how they should be? If so, why do you think they should be portrayed as uniquely incompetent compared to the other Legions?

What portrayals showcase them as acting in a way that would imply competence?

Because they act uniquely incompetent compared to other Legions. Their Primarch deliberately doesn't lead his men, his warriors just run at the enemy with no regard for positioning or laying down suppressive fire. They touch down and literally scatter like cockroaches in a city looking for people to manfight.

And somehow often win, and maintained high Legion strength consistently despite their suicidal manner towards waging war.

I want them to either act competent or be treated like the mouth-breathing drooling morons they are by the narrative.

 Grimskul wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
Considering all that, kharn shouldn't be able to challenge a primarch in a duel imo.

Well, I disagree, because I think it makes for bad narrative design that he isn't. Even if he can't challenge a primarch, though, it wouldn't be for skill, just raw strength, gear, and psychic potential. He's been consistently portrayed as a superlatively skilled combatant (best in the game) across multiple editions.


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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The fact that we are talking about a SoS even being close to Kharn is laughable. Kharn can and has slaughtered the mightiest foes in the galaxy, save for the Emperor or a Custodian he's kinda on his own level.

I mean, Khârn should be able to slap a basic bitch Custodian's gak.


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 Void__Dragon wrote:

Nah, if anything Kharn and the World Eaters in general should be portrayed as the incompetent and laughably easy to kill butt monkeys of 40k, only a threat when massively outnumbering their opposition and dying in droves to any respectable Legion. Basically Orks in power armour, only much less competent.

Because that's how a stupid "make landfall and then scatter in every direction looking for manfights" Legion should be regarded as.

Either make them competent or make them incompetent, don't make them act like drooling morons and then pretend that the setting should take them seriously.

This scene would be better if Kharn was unceremoniously ripped to pieces by a fusillade of heavy bolter, plasma, or whatever shots as he ran headlong through an open field waving his axe like the stupid idiot he is.

I generally lean towards "incredibly bloodthirsty, but competent" portrayals of World Eaters. Do you think that's not how they should be? If so, why do you think they should be portrayed as uniquely incompetent compared to the other Legions?

Unfortunately, the way Primarchs have been written so far has made them Highlander characters, where only Primarchs can basically perma-kill one another in a duel unless they choose to allow their non-Primarch duelist to kill them (i.e. Konrad Kurze). The only character that is implied to have died through non-Primarch methods is Dorn and it's more like he's MIA since all they found left was his hand and not the whole body.

Kharn should definitely be able to handle the average Custodes though, given that Valerian, a Shield Captain, who had taken down guys like Bloodthirsters and worse, didn't know if he could outright beat Asterion Moloc when he analyzed him for weakness despite him just being a juiced up Chapter Master. So you bet your butt that Kharn, the chosen mortal of Khorne, would give most Custodes a run for their money.

Like I've written before, I agree that kharn could handle a "standard" custodian, but given how seemingly special asterion moloc is (I still believe he is some form of frankenstein-esque thunderwarrior experiment), if he were to face kharn, it would be quite an interesting bout. I don't think kharn would just stomp him.

The modern conception of World Eaters (and Khorne Worshippers in general) is the problem with them. Kharn used to be a uniquely nuts berserker who literally chanted "Kill! Maim! Burn!" over and over. But over time rather than being the upper extreme, he has just become the rolemodel for the legion. Khorne used to have heavy weapons and war machines, because y'know, Khorne cares not yadda yadda. But nowadays they are all chainaxe wielding berserkers. I think it made more sense when there were still people in Khornate Warbands with self control and a sense of strategy. Sure, the World Eaters are all lobotimised nutjobs, but there would be others there to cynically use them to best effect in battle.

Turning the entire legion into a bunch of nutters with no restraint... it just doesn't work. Betrayer is a cool novel, but the World Eaters are hands down the worst legion, for sure.

Gotta disagree here. I don't know much about the SoS, but I'm fairly sure they're just regular human women who are psychic nulls, so yes, it seems far more reasonable an outcome of her standing in front of kharn that she gets shredded than not, despite her training.

Also, considering how pasted the traitors got in that book, it was the least they could have given them really.

On the world eaters front, again, I disagree. Sure, they have their stereotype which their media is obviously going to play to, same as any other legion, but their novels do show some of their members trying to keep their tactical ability in spite of the nails.

Tiberias wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
Considering all that, kharn shouldn't be able to challenge a primarch in a duel imo.

Well, I disagree, because I think it makes for bad narrative design that he isn't. Even if he can't challenge a primarch, though, it wouldn't be for skill, just raw strength, gear, and psychic potential. He's been consistently portrayed as a superlatively skilled combatant (best in the game) across multiple editions.


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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The fact that we are talking about a SoS even being close to Kharn is laughable. Kharn can and has slaughtered the mightiest foes in the galaxy, save for the Emperor or a Custodian he's kinda on his own level.

I mean, Khârn should be able to slap a basic bitch Custodian's gak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Nah, if anything Kharn and the World Eaters in general should be portrayed as the incompetent and laughably easy to kill butt monkeys of 40k, only a threat when massively outnumbering their opposition and dying in droves to any respectable Legion. Basically Orks in power armour, only much less competent.

Because that's how a stupid "make landfall and then scatter in every direction looking for manfights" Legion should be regarded as.

Either make them competent or make them incompetent, don't make them act like drooling morons and then pretend that the setting should take them seriously.

This scene would be better if Kharn was unceremoniously ripped to pieces by a fusillade of heavy bolter, plasma, or whatever shots as he ran headlong through an open field waving his axe like the stupid idiot he is.

I generally lean towards "incredibly bloodthirsty, but competent" portrayals of World Eaters. Do you think that's not how they should be? If so, why do you think they should be portrayed as uniquely incompetent compared to the other Legions?

Unfortunately, the way Primarchs have been written so far has made them Highlander characters, where only Primarchs can basically perma-kill one another in a duel unless they choose to allow their non-Primarch duelist to kill them (i.e. Konrad Kurze). The only character that is implied to have died through non-Primarch methods is Dorn and it's more like he's MIA since all they found left was his hand and not the whole body.

Kharn should definitely be able to handle the average Custodes though, given that Valerian, a Shield Captain, who had taken down guys like Bloodthirsters and worse, didn't know if he could outright beat Asterion Moloc when he analyzed him for weakness despite him just being a juiced up Chapter Master. So you bet your butt that Kharn, the chosen mortal of Khorne, would give most Custodes a run for their money.

Like I've written before, I agree that kharn could handle a "standard" custodian, but given how seemingly special asterion moloc is (I still believe he is some form of frankenstein-esque thunderwarrior experiment), if he were to face kharn, it would be quite an interesting bout. I don't think kharn would just stomp him.

Asterion when he charges, just like Kharn, in game can stomp LOTS of characters and units that round. That's consistent with both of them since they've been introduced. Asterion has always had durability on his side of course.

I do myself myself agreeing with the OP that it was pretty dumb. Not everybody has to have a heroic death, not everybody has to die gloriously and be remembered, but it just came across as an unintentional piece of dark humour - the reason I say unintentional is I guess we're meant to see how far off the deep end Kharn is here, that he can score an 'important' kill - or indeed, any kind of kill - and is just in such a state of total and complete red mist that it barely registers. The problem comes from the description implying he just sort of ran into her like a bird hitting a windshield at full speed rather than him being on Khorne auto-pilot at the moment of the kill. Even if they wanted to (correctly imo) show just how doomed Jenetia was, she could've had a few seconds of fight from her POV, hell, that might even as been Abnett's intention (Kharn is just so crazy that he doesn't even recognise he's been actively fighting somebody) but it doesn't come across that way at all.

Although yeah, if it was a named Astartes character a lot of people would probably be in uproar and calling Kharn an author's pet Mary Sue - people still call Shadowsun such because she killed that one previously unknown Raven Guard Chapter Master for example.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
I'd rather SoS had some named characters in current-timeline 40k. I could give a toss about HH-era characters.

Khârn should be terrifying in melee though. He should be able to take on Primarchs.

Nah, if anything Kharn and the World Eaters in general should be portrayed as the incompetent and laughably easy to kill butt monkeys of 40k, only a threat when massively outnumbering their opposition and dying in droves to any respectable Legion. Basically Orks in power armour, only much less competent.

Because that's how a stupid "make landfall and then scatter in every direction looking for manfights" Legion should be regarded as.

Either make them competent or make them incompetent, don't make them act like drooling morons and then pretend that the setting should take them seriously.

This scene would be better if Kharn was unceremoniously ripped to pieces by a fusillade of heavy bolter, plasma, or whatever shots as he ran headlong through an open field waving his axe like the stupid idiot he is.

It's funny you mention that, because one of the most complained about scenes in Gaunt's Ghosts is during Ghostmaker when they more or less use an advancing Basilisk column as bait and then have the marksmen down the group of Khorne Berserkers who come flailing out of the woodwork as predictably hungry for blood as you'd expect - it's probably a case of Early Instalment Weirdness on Abnett's part, but I always liked it.

Isnt that passage preceded by the explanation of how knackered and beaten she already was having been on the font lines for a while - like she was missing fingers or something from memory and was worn out and tired. Plus she is human, not a post human pumped up by a god of war. It was a perfectly good way of showing the hopelessness of the seige - that even someone important can be worn down and killed without recognition (given they have expressed multiple times in that book and others that they SoS are hard to look at and may as well be invisible to most people and Kharn is lost to his nails) in the midst of the biggest fight in the setting.

 Arbitrator wrote:
I do myself myself agreeing with the OP that it was pretty dumb. Not everybody has to have a heroic death, not everybody has to die gloriously and be remembered, but it just came across as an unintentional piece of dark humour - the reason I say unintentional is I guess we're meant to see how far off the deep end Kharn is here, that he can score an 'important' kill - or indeed, any kind of kill - and is just in such a state of total and complete red mist that it barely registers. The problem comes from the description implying he just sort of ran into her like a bird hitting a windshield at full speed rather than him being on Khorne auto-pilot at the moment of the kill. Even if they wanted to (correctly imo) show just how doomed Jenetia was, she could've had a few seconds of fight from her POV, hell, that might even as been Abnett's intention (Kharn is just so crazy that he doesn't even recognise he's been actively fighting somebody) but it doesn't come across that way at all.

Although yeah, if it was a named Astartes character a lot of people would probably be in uproar and calling Kharn an author's pet Mary Sue - people still call Shadowsun such because she killed that one previously unknown Raven Guard Chapter Master for example.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
I'd rather SoS had some named characters in current-timeline 40k. I could give a toss about HH-era characters.

Khârn should be terrifying in melee though. He should be able to take on Primarchs.

Nah, if anything Kharn and the World Eaters in general should be portrayed as the incompetent and laughably easy to kill butt monkeys of 40k, only a threat when massively outnumbering their opposition and dying in droves to any respectable Legion. Basically Orks in power armour, only much less competent.

Because that's how a stupid "make landfall and then scatter in every direction looking for manfights" Legion should be regarded as.

Either make them competent or make them incompetent, don't make them act like drooling morons and then pretend that the setting should take them seriously.

This scene would be better if Kharn was unceremoniously ripped to pieces by a fusillade of heavy bolter, plasma, or whatever shots as he ran headlong through an open field waving his axe like the stupid idiot he is.

It's funny you mention that, because one of the most complained about scenes in Gaunt's Ghosts is during Ghostmaker when they more or less use an advancing Basilisk column as bait and then have the marksmen down the group of Khorne Berserkers who come flailing out of the woodwork as predictably hungry for blood as you'd expect - it's probably a case of Early Instalment Weirdness on Abnett's part, but I always liked it.

That really wasn't the complaint with Shadowsun vs no name Chapter Master though.

 FrothingMuppet wrote:
Isnt that passage preceded by the explanation of how knackered and beaten she already was having been on the font lines for a while - like she was missing fingers or something from memory and was worn out and tired. Plus she is human, not a post human pumped up by a god of war. It was a perfectly good way of showing the hopelessness of the seige - that even someone important can be worn down and killed without recognition (given they have expressed multiple times in that book and others that they SoS are hard to look at and may as well be invisible to most people and Kharn is lost to his nails) in the midst of the biggest fight in the setting.

Given the ugh, abrupt, nature of her death, I don’t think it’s a question of her being a bit tired.

A Null field should shut down any magical boon Khorne was applying to him.

The invisibility thing is unique to this book. Nulls are painful to look at, you are more likely to notice if a null is present; not less.

I don’t feel it’s a worthwhile point. We know they’re going to win. If she is a major Imperial figure alongside the Emperors council, even if only in a notional sense, that would mean people would know about the character and it would matter. If the metaphor relies on the character being literally invisible then that’s a very specific situation.

Given that the later books are going to be heavy on the psychic and demonic side of things it really does not make sense to kill the leader of the Sisters of Silence. You don’t really need to come up with a reason for her to be knocked off. Are we not going to see the faction for the rest of the series? I don’t know. They have started giving Custodians the same ability to pacify demons with their presence so having an army of Nulls clearly isn’t useful in a Chaos Invasion.