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endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Firstly, this wasn't Khan as in Khab the betrayer, the total raving khorne looney, this was still closer to crusade era Khan than betrayer Khan (though, this is where it starts later in the battle when he is killed), one of the most elite space marines, in the upper echelons of ability with peers such as Sigismund who would be considered his equal, maybe not in technique but in pure ability to kill almost anything placed in-front of him other than a primarch level enemy.

Khan, well, most space marines would be able to kill a human by just running at them... That's some serious blunt force trauma to be dealt with.

If you’re not wearing a suit of power armour.

Even in power armour. The power armour may look fine from the outside, it's not good if the inside is mush.

If it didn’t protect from blunt force trauma then bolter rounds would kill them and the armour worthless. In Hammer and Anvil a pair of sisters take autocannon rounds and are only wounded by that. I am sure an autocannon has more blunt force trauma than a dude running into you.

OP- arguing about a passage in a novel, yet doesn't know basic literary terms.

Seems legit.

 Grimtuff wrote:
OP- arguing about a passage in a novel, yet doesn't know basic literary terms.

Seems legit.

I am not commenting on the prose or the technical complexity of the writing. I am saying they threw this character under the bus; quite literally.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
OP- arguing about a passage in a novel, yet doesn't know basic literary terms.

Seems legit.

I am not commenting on the prose or the technical complexity of the writing. I am saying they threw this character under the bus; quite literally.

Not literally. Kharn is not a bus.

You're not making a good case for yourself here.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Firstly, this wasn't Khan as in Khab the betrayer, the total raving khorne looney, this was still closer to crusade era Khan than betrayer Khan (though, this is where it starts later in the battle when he is killed), one of the most elite space marines, in the upper echelons of ability with peers such as Sigismund who would be considered his equal, maybe not in technique but in pure ability to kill almost anything placed in-front of him other than a primarch level enemy.

Khan, well, most space marines would be able to kill a human by just running at them... That's some serious blunt force trauma to be dealt with.

If you’re not wearing a suit of power armour.

Even in power armour. The power armour may look fine from the outside, it's not good if the inside is mush.

If it didn’t protect from blunt force trauma then bolter rounds would kill them and the armour worthless. In Hammer and Anvil a pair of sisters take autocannon rounds and are only wounded by that. I am sure an autocannon has more blunt force trauma than a dude running into you.

Place me in a box made of thick steel and shoot guns at it. I'm probably going to be safe. Drop that same box 6 floors and it will possibly have hardly any damage, I will be in a whole world of trouble though.

If you're complaining about her dying in geneal, I think it actually accentuates the desperation of the Siege of Terra in a way. While there are heroic last stands, there are also a million or more tiny battles to the death where plenty have ignominous deaths that are unheard and forgotten, and hers is one of them. It's actually oddly fitting, that the leader of the Sisters of Silence, best known for their lack of battlefield rhetoric or speech in general, besides their status as witch hunters, that she dies in complete anonymity and silence that even Kharn didn't know what happened. In war plenty of people just die in unexpected ways, and I don't think that this is that bad of a way to go out. Keep in mind Kharn had literally beaten Sigismund one on one already due to how swollen with power he was with Khorne, so even without Khorne's influence, between the Butcher's nails and his own prowess, I could see him just plowing through Krole into a paste if she was in his way.

Also, let's be real, does anyone really have that much investment in Krole as a character? Her backstory is cool and all, but as far as I know it's not like there's a huge backlog of characterization for her in the novels or even the HH 30K books. So it's not like how they handled Alpharius into becoming a meme.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
OP- arguing about a passage in a novel, yet doesn't know basic literary terms.

Seems legit.

I am not commenting on the prose or the technical complexity of the writing. I am saying they threw this character under the bus; quite literally.

Not literally. Kharn is not a bus.

You're not making a good case for yourself here.

That’s the joke.

It’s an opinion piece. I have a Sisters if Silence army and I think GW did them and their leader atrociously in this book. You would never see a Space Marine or smartass Perpetual swatted like a bug. Those characters get dignity. That tells me Dan Abnett was wanting to up the body count and gunning for a bit of dark humour. I think that cheapens the Sisters of Silence and doesn’t do anything for Kharn.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
OP- arguing about a passage in a novel, yet doesn't know basic literary terms.

Seems legit.

I am not commenting on the prose or the technical complexity of the writing. I am saying they threw this character under the bus; quite literally.

Not literally. Kharn is not a bus.

You're not making a good case for yourself here.

That’s the joke.

It’s an opinion piece. I have a Sisters if Silence army and I think GW did them and their leader atrociously in this book. You would never see a Space Marine or smartass Perpetual swatted like a bug. Those characters get dignity. That tells me Dan Abnett was wanting to up the body count and gunning for a bit of dark humour. I think that cheapens the Sisters of Silence and doesn’t do anything for Kharn.

You haven't read the Eisenhorn books have you?

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
OP- arguing about a passage in a novel, yet doesn't know basic literary terms.

Seems legit.

I am not commenting on the prose or the technical complexity of the writing. I am saying they threw this character under the bus; quite literally.

Not literally. Kharn is not a bus.

You're not making a good case for yourself here.

That’s the joke.

It’s an opinion piece. I have a Sisters if Silence army and I think GW did them and their leader atrociously in this book. You would never see a Space Marine or smartass Perpetual swatted like a bug. Those characters get dignity. That tells me Dan Abnett was wanting to up the body count and gunning for a bit of dark humour. I think that cheapens the Sisters of Silence and doesn’t do anything for Kharn.

It really isn't atrocious though. As a Necron player I'm not gonna complain if one of my characters suddenly couldn't reanimate after Kharn got through with them. I think you really just don't understand Kharn as a character or his abilities.

You really need to stop and consider a lot about this.

Kharn remains at all times a Space Marine. As such, he’s not a mere “splunger”, strong but slow. He’s wicked strong, and he’s wicked fast. Hence post-human dread. People just can’t process something that big, in armour that thick, doing what it can, moving so fluidly etc.

The running speed of a Space Marine is wonky canon. Some sources peg it around 30-35 mph, others as much as 50mph.

Quick Google suggest an armoured weight of around 300kg - or 47 Stone. I suspect that’s way, way too light. I mean, Hafthor Bjornnson, who portrayed The Mountain in GoT reportedly weighs in at 205kg, at a height of 2.06m, or 6’9”

Now he is 100% a big, huge fella. No doubting that. Yet in terms of body mass, he’s miles away from Astartes. Remember, their bones are thickened, and they’re packing additional organs. Their muscles are also denser - making them heavier, so the 300kg is clearly well out.

Fully armoured, with the backpack power unit? I’d say easily 500kg.

Running at 30mph? That’s bone shattering impact.

Running at 50mph? That’s organ bursting impact.

That’s before factoring in anything like a punch swung at that sprint.

To get an idea of that? When filming Rocky IV, Dolph Lundgren punched Sylvester Stallone so hard, he was in ICU for nine days. Doctors compared the resulting injuries to those from a head on collision.

What do you think even an unarmoured, standing strike from an Astartes would do to the human body?

That is the frankly ludicrous “you cannot possibly portray this properly on screen” level of power we’re dealing with.

And don’t forget, Kharn was wielding a chain saw headed axe, complete with a matter disrupting energy field.

Are you still expecting a result beyond “you go squish now” for any unenhanced human?

 Grimskul wrote:
If you're complaining about her dying in geneal, I think it actually accentuates the desperation of the Siege of Terra in a way. While there are heroic last stands, there are also a million or more tiny battles to the death where plenty have ignominous deaths that are unheard and forgotten, and hers is one of them. It's actually oddly fitting, that the leader of the Sisters of Silence, best known for their lack of battlefield rhetoric or speech in general, besides their status as witch hunters, that she dies in complete anonymity and silence that even Kharn didn't know what happened. In war plenty of people just die in unexpected ways, and I don't think that this is that bad of a way to go out. Keep in mind Kharn had literally beaten Sigismund one on one already due to how swollen with power he was with Khorne, so even without Khorne's influence, between the Butcher's nails and his own prowess, I could see him just plowing through Krole into a paste if she was in his way.

Also, let's be real, does anyone really have that much investment in Krole as a character? Her backstory is cool and all, but as far as I know it's not like there's a huge backlog of characterization for her in the novels or even the HH 30K books. So it's not like how they handled Alpharius into becoming a meme.

Not really. She wonders if she’s going to be remembered and then Kharn goes “what the hell did I just hit”. That’s a dark joke. If Kharn got a nuke dropped on him by an anonymous artillery commander I doubt it would be taken as well. It’s not poetic it’s humiliating. Desperation and dying forgotten did not need a meme of Kharns kill counter ticking up. I think Dan wanted to do the edgelord thing and have the noble warrior have an ignominious death because it’s not one of his wise cracking perpetuals with their plot armour. Those are unpretentious characters. Like Gaunts squad killing a dozen chaos marines by being sneaky sneaky.

They haven’t and that’s a shame. Fifty plus novel on the Heresy and we’ll barely do anything with the faction.

Looks at Sisters of Silence army with Forgeworld models. Yeah I kind of cared. They’re a cool faction in concept. Black Library clearly had no clue how to weave into a story centred on Space Marines in total war.


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endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
OP- arguing about a passage in a novel, yet doesn't know basic literary terms.

Seems legit.

I am not commenting on the prose or the technical complexity of the writing. I am saying they threw this character under the bus; quite literally.

Not literally. Kharn is not a bus.

You're not making a good case for yourself here.

That’s the joke.

It’s an opinion piece. I have a Sisters if Silence army and I think GW did them and their leader atrociously in this book. You would never see a Space Marine or smartass Perpetual swatted like a bug. Those characters get dignity. That tells me Dan Abnett was wanting to up the body count and gunning for a bit of dark humour. I think that cheapens the Sisters of Silence and doesn’t do anything for Kharn.

You haven't read the Eisenhorn books have you?

Many years ago. Why?


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
OP- arguing about a passage in a novel, yet doesn't know basic literary terms.

Seems legit.

I am not commenting on the prose or the technical complexity of the writing. I am saying they threw this character under the bus; quite literally.

Not literally. Kharn is not a bus.

You're not making a good case for yourself here.

That’s the joke.

It’s an opinion piece. I have a Sisters if Silence army and I think GW did them and their leader atrociously in this book. You would never see a Space Marine or smartass Perpetual swatted like a bug. Those characters get dignity. That tells me Dan Abnett was wanting to up the body count and gunning for a bit of dark humour. I think that cheapens the Sisters of Silence and doesn’t do anything for Kharn.

It really isn't atrocious though. As a Necron player I'm not gonna complain if one of my characters suddenly couldn't reanimate after Kharn got through with them. I think you really just don't understand Kharn as a character or his abilities.

Because she’s the only Sister of Silence character and the faction leader. You’re talking about Kharn splatting the Silent King not one of a number of special characters.


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You really need to stop and consider a lot about this.

Kharn remains at all times a Space Marine. As such, he’s not a mere “splunger”, strong but slow. He’s wicked strong, and he’s wicked fast. Hence post-human dread. People just can’t process something that big, in armour that thick, doing what it can, moving so fluidly etc.

The running speed of a Space Marine is wonky canon. Some sources peg it around 30-35 mph, others as much as 50mph.

Quick Google suggest an armoured weight of around 300kg - or 47 Stone. I suspect that’s way, way too light. I mean, Hafthor Bjornnson, who portrayed The Mountain in GoT reportedly weighs in at 205kg, at a height of 2.06m, or 6’9”

Now he is 100% a big, huge fella. No doubting that. Yet in terms of body mass, he’s miles away from Astartes. Remember, their bones are thickened, and they’re packing additional organs. Their muscles are also denser - making them heavier, so the 300kg is clearly well out.

Fully armoured, with the backpack power unit? I’d say easily 500kg.

Running at 30mph? That’s bone shattering impact.

Running at 50mph? That’s organ bursting impact.

That’s before factoring in anything like a punch swung at that sprint.

To get an idea of that? When filming Rocky IV, Dolph Lundgren punched Sylvester Stallone so hard, he was in ICU for nine days. Doctors compared the resulting injuries to those from a head on collision.

What do you think even an unarmoured, standing strike from an Astartes would do to the human body?

That is the frankly ludicrous “you cannot possibly portray this properly on screen” level of power we’re dealing with.

And don’t forget, Kharn was wielding a chain saw headed axe, complete with a matter disrupting energy field.

Are you still expecting a result beyond “you go squish now” for any unenhanced human?

If she’s wearing power armour, has a magic sword and commands one of the Emperors personal armies that broke Prospero. Plus many crazy null powers. Yeah. I don’t get the impression a marine can kill such a person by running into them.

Plus he had to actually fight Celestine before he decapitated her and she’s an unaugmented human. No running into her and splat.

Well Dan needs to explain how Gaunt survived fighting an Iron Warrior in melee before his buddy shot him in he head with a lasgun.

I think people arguing the logic of Kharn being ABLE to crush a human underfoot are missing the point here.

It doesn't matter if that could happen, it matters that it did happen, and how it was dealt with in the narrative. It isn't a theoretical question about whether this is possible or realistic, but a question about whether it makes for a better story or is more satisfying.

This for sure isn't the first time that a character (even from a major faction) gets killed in less than a sentence and almost as an afterthought.

Null powers don’t help against Kharn. He is not psychically enhanced.

Krole, though skilled, is physically unenhanced. At the very most, that means she’s no more than the peak of human physical potential.

Heresy. 40k. All GW novels are wonderfully inconsistent. But Krole being swatted by Kharn? It’s entirely realistic.

Consider actual fightyfight. With close combat weapons.

Skill counts. Speed counts. Strength counts. Experience counts. Your weapon? Is genuinely less important than the above - but should lean into your strong points among them.

If your opponent is stronger than you, parrying or deflecting their strikes won’t necessarily work, as depending on the extent of the difference, they could well simply push past regardless.

If your opponent is faster, they’ve got a distinct edge.

If your opponent is more experienced, they’ve got a distinct advantage.

If you’re more skilled, you have an advantage of your own.

Here? Kharn has all of those advantages over an unenhanced human, however special their bonce might be.

Power Armour isn’t the be all and end all for an unenhanced human.

Consider car crashes. I can be belted in, the airbag can deploy, and the designed crumple zones (there to absorb impact) work perfectly - and I can still die from ruptured organs, if the impact is fast enough. Because of the limits of the human body.

If you’re in power armour, and I hit you with sufficient force? The same thing can happen - and I don’t need to actually breach its integrity. Like, at all. Because that’s not how the transfer of force works.

Then there’s Kharn’s level of combat expertise. He’d be chopping (with his chain saw headed axe that’s wrapped in a matter disrupting energy field) at the weak points, such as the inevitable joints of the armour.

I’m afraid you’ve got nowt here duder.

Again, it isn't about whether Kharn could do that, but whether it is satisfying to read to have it be that way. I certainly would prefer to have a cool scene rather than a throw away joke like that.

 Da Boss wrote:
I think people arguing the logic of Kharn being ABLE to crush a human underfoot are missing the point here.

It doesn't matter if that could happen, it matters that it did happen, and how it was dealt with in the narrative. It isn't a theoretical question about whether this is possible or realistic, but a question about whether it makes for a better story or is more satisfying.

Exactly.

I mean the books, even just looking at Dan Abnett and the Heresy are monstrously inconsistent with how powerful marines are. There’s bits of Pharos where a platoon of militia kills thirty night lords with a few heavy bolters. Brag killing an iron warrior with a missile launcher like it’s not a big deal that would have made Hero of the Imperium or anything.

This was the poster child of the faction. How she went out colours the faction and making a meme out of her death is just a bad from a branding perspective. It’s a bit like the 40k trailer. Of course Sisters aren’t in the same league with Marines and there’s plenty of visual cues this is the case. But, that’s not the same as rubbing it in by having a faction leader and only special character splatooned in such a humiliating way.


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Spoletta wrote:
This for sure isn't the first time that a character (even from a major faction) gets killed in less than a sentence and almost as an afterthought.

The only character and faction leader?

He did Eidolon and the SoH characters pretty dirty as well but as least he’s not the only character and faction leader.

Don't say "exactly" as if that was the point you were trying to make all along. You have been emphatically arguing in this entire thread that the SoS is too strong to have been rolled over by Kharn the way she was.

And no one ITT has argued that it is narratively exciting for things to have gone down that way, only that Kharn bodying her is consistent with the fluff.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Null powers don’t help against Kharn. He is not psychically enhanced.

Krole, though skilled, is physically unenhanced. At the very most, that means she’s no more than the peak of human physical potential.

Heresy. 40k. All GW novels are wonderfully inconsistent. But Krole being swatted by Kharn? It’s entirely realistic.

Consider actual fightyfight. With close combat weapons.

Skill counts. Speed counts. Strength counts. Experience counts. Your weapon? Is genuinely less important than the above - but should lean into your strong points among them.

If your opponent is stronger than you, parrying or deflecting their strikes won’t necessarily work, as depending on the extent of the difference, they could well simply push past regardless.

If your opponent is faster, they’ve got a distinct edge.

If your opponent is more experienced, they’ve got a distinct advantage.

If you’re more skilled, you have an advantage of your own.

Here? Kharn has all of those advantages over an unenhanced human, however special their bonce might be.

Power Armour isn’t the be all and end all for an unenhanced human.

Consider car crashes. I can be belted in, the airbag can deploy, and the designed crumple zones (there to absorb impact) work perfectly - and I can still die from ruptured organs, if the impact is fast enough. Because of the limits of the human body.

If you’re in power armour, and I hit you with sufficient force? The same thing can happen - and I don’t need to actually breach its integrity. Like, at all. Because that’s not how the transfer of force works.

Then there’s Kharn’s level of combat expertise. He’d be chopping (with his chain saw headed axe that’s wrapped in a matter disrupting energy field) at the weak points, such as the inevitable joints of the armour.

I’m afraid you’ve got nowt here duder.

Explain how Celestine can fight a demon prince and win? She’s unaugmented. Even held her own against Abaddon. Still a str3 t3 girl in power armour with a magic sword. Gaunt not dying instantly when he fights an Iron Warrior in close combat? Clearly, a characters ability to fight depends on who they are and not a checklist of abilities. Krole is at least on a level with Celestine. The only reason to treat the character different is the author wanting to make a dark joke. Has nothing to do with power level.

Also, read the passage. This wasn’t some short duel. She basically ran into the Khorne train.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Don't say "exactly" as if that was the point you were trying to make all along. You have been emphatically arguing in this entire thread that the SoS is too strong to have been rolled over by Kharn the way she was.

And no one ITT has argued that it is narratively exciting for things to have gone down that way, only that Kharn bodying her is consistent with the fluff.

It’s the only point I’ve been making and the only one I care to make. Hence all the talk about it being embarrassing and humiliating for her to go down like that. It’s inconsistent to treat Krole that way whilst Celestine kills marines by the score and duels Abaddon.

They have.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Explain how Celestine can fight a demon prince and win? She’s unaugmented. Even held her own against Abaddon.

Celestine is explicitly augmented by the Emperors power.

On Cadia when both Celestine and Abaddon were both briefly depowered he easily beat her.

Celestine is functionally a Imperial daemon prince. She isn't at all comparable to this chick in power.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Celestine is functionally a Imperial daemon prince. She isn't at all comparable to this chick in power.

Yup, there's an entire book about her process of resurrection and having to fight and find pieces of her in the warp before she can reconstitute herself. She is NOT a normal human and using in game stats to justify her being unaugmented is about as dense as saying that an Ethereal getting headshotted by a Ratling sniper rifle in the fluff is inaccurate because you can only inflict 2 wounds max from successfully rolling a 6 to wound on a single shot from a Ratling sniper rifle in 40K. You can't swap between the game and the fluff to justify your point without acknowleding that the game is not a direct 1:1 equivalent given that it's an abstraction and lacks the granularity of what happens in written fiction.

I have no issue with Kharn being able to run through a SoS, named character, faction leader or otherwise. At the end of the day she is a human and he is a Space Marine.

I completely get what Abnett was going for here, nobody is safe in the Siege and the shock value of killing off a major character unceremoniously makes a potent point regarding plot armour and tosses out expectations. Equally it does suck that this is really the only character we know in the whole faction, and I can see why it irks the OP.

A.T. wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Explain how Celestine can fight a demon prince and win? She’s unaugmented. Even held her own against Abaddon.

Celestine is explicitly augmented by the Emperors power.

On Cadia when both Celestine and Abaddon were both briefly depowered he easily beat her.

Which amounts to her being a str3 t3 character in power armour reliant on wargear. Why didn’t Abaddon just run into her?

Krole has null powers, power armour and a magic sword. Pretty sure also has a iron halo as well which was mysteriously missing. I am not seeing the difference here.

The point is Black Library is not consistent with power levels. There’s stories where Sisters characters are killing marines and others where they can’t scratch a single one. Faith and Fury and the Mason book with the Genecult. This has everything to do with the authors intent, not power level. Dan threw the character and faction under the Khorne Train.

Aash wrote:
I have no issue with Kharn being able to run through a SoS, named character, faction leader or otherwise. At the end of the day she is a human and he is a Space Marine.

I completely get what Abnett was going for here, nobody is safe in the Siege and the shock value of killing off a major character unceremoniously makes a potent point regarding plot armour and tosses out expectations. Equally it does suck that this is really the only character we know in the whole faction, and I can see why it irks the OP.

I mean that's not entirely true though, because we have Amendera Kendel who had more written about her than the Krole, and she's the very first human to have ordered Exterminatus. There's also Aleya for post Heresy as well.

At some point you have to accept that if everyone gets an amazing last stand or homage that there's diminishing returns. The reason why you don't see it happening a lot to marines in 30K is unfortunately the reality of needing the character's with the big names to survive for their post Heresy identities, that's why you have newer characters like Shadrak Meduson being captured and executed, versus people like Abbadon who keep getting teleported or saved at the last minute.

So many characters need to die in this battle, not all can have multiple chapters dedicated to their heroic death... Some need to die, and die in a manner that is not all that memorable, or heroic or feel like it is even worth it, this is the most desperate lopsided till the end battle ever.

Aash wrote:
I have no issue with Kharn being able to run through a SoS, named character, faction leader or otherwise. At the end of the day she is a human and he is a Space Marine.

I completely get what Abnett was going for here, nobody is safe in the Siege and the shock value of killing off a major character unceremoniously makes a potent point regarding plot armour and tosses out expectations. Equally it does suck that this is really the only character we know in the whole faction, and I can see why it irks the OP.

Evidently Gaunts the luckiest man in the Imperium then.

He has a number of characters die forgotten in the spaceport. But that passage is framed as a joke. What other time has a human character been killed in this fashion. Even Guard at least get the axe. He could have killed her offscreen. He chose an undignified Death.

Well it worked. I hope Kharn falls into a sewer and drowns in it. Although they have organs for that. So he’ll probably crawl out eventually but he’ll never get the smell out.




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endlesswaltz123 wrote:
So many characters need to die in this battle, not all can have multiple chapters dedicated to their heroic death... Some need to die, and die in a manner that is not all that memorable, or heroic or feel like it is even worth it, this is the most desperate lopsided till the end battle ever.

You could easily have picked a minor SoS lieutenant to fill a similar function. If they’re going to do anything major with Magnus play or the Webway, likely to heavily involve the Sisters, it’s odd to leave them leaderless and without any high ranking characters. I mean I dunno. Might be they’re not going to feature at all in the later Siege books.

Also a better death would be Ahriman as revenge for Prospero. Kharn is just random.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Aash wrote:
I have no issue with Kharn being able to run through a SoS, named character, faction leader or otherwise. At the end of the day she is a human and he is a Space Marine.

I completely get what Abnett was going for here, nobody is safe in the Siege and the shock value of killing off a major character unceremoniously makes a potent point regarding plot armour and tosses out expectations. Equally it does suck that this is really the only character we know in the whole faction, and I can see why it irks the OP.

Evidently Gaunts the luckiest man in the Imperium then.

He has a number of characters die forgotten in the spaceport. But that passage is framed as a joke. What other time has a human character been killed in this fashion. Even Guard at least get the axe. He could have killed her offscreen. He chose an undignified Death.

Well it worked. I hope Kharn falls into a sewer and drowns in it. Although they have organs for that. So he’ll probably crawl out eventually but he’ll never get the smell out.




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endlesswaltz123 wrote:
So many characters need to die in this battle, not all can have multiple chapters dedicated to their heroic death... Some need to die, and die in a manner that is not all that memorable, or heroic or feel like it is even worth it, this is the most desperate lopsided till the end battle ever.

You could easily have picked a minor SoS lieutenant to fill a similar function. If they’re going to do anything major with Magnus play or the Webway, likely to heavily involve the Sisters, it’s odd to leave them leaderless and without any high ranking characters. I mean I dunno. Might be they’re not going to feature at all in the later Siege books.

Also a better death would be Ahriman as revenge for Prospero. Kharn is just random.

It's funny you mention Kharn because he DOES supposedly die on a pile of bodies in the Siege of Terra based on the old fluff about him, he just comes back to life when the World Eaters recover his corpse when they retreat from Terra. So we'll see but Kharn may die just as ignominously as Krole does.

Well chances are that if Magnus is involved in the Webway, it's going to be mainly a showdown between Malcador/the Emperor with him, since even if the SoS are there, they won't be the focal point since they're not going to pass up on super DBZ psyker duels between them. Not to mention that it's the collective null aura of the SoS that make a difference, not just one of them, even if its Krole, otherwise they wouldn't work in squads.

Saint Celestine is a Saint

Clue was in the name all along, you silly Goose!

 Grimskul wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Aash wrote:
I have no issue with Kharn being able to run through a SoS, named character, faction leader or otherwise. At the end of the day she is a human and he is a Space Marine.

I completely get what Abnett was going for here, nobody is safe in the Siege and the shock value of killing off a major character unceremoniously makes a potent point regarding plot armour and tosses out expectations. Equally it does suck that this is really the only character we know in the whole faction, and I can see why it irks the OP.

Evidently Gaunts the luckiest man in the Imperium then.

He has a number of characters die forgotten in the spaceport. But that passage is framed as a joke. What other time has a human character been killed in this fashion. Even Guard at least get the axe. He could have killed her offscreen. He chose an undignified Death.

Well it worked. I hope Kharn falls into a sewer and drowns in it. Although they have organs for that. So he’ll probably crawl out eventually but he’ll never get the smell out.




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endlesswaltz123 wrote:
So many characters need to die in this battle, not all can have multiple chapters dedicated to their heroic death... Some need to die, and die in a manner that is not all that memorable, or heroic or feel like it is even worth it, this is the most desperate lopsided till the end battle ever.

You could easily have picked a minor SoS lieutenant to fill a similar function. If they’re going to do anything major with Magnus play or the Webway, likely to heavily involve the Sisters, it’s odd to leave them leaderless and without any high ranking characters. I mean I dunno. Might be they’re not going to feature at all in the later Siege books.

Also a better death would be Ahriman as revenge for Prospero. Kharn is just random.

It's funny you mention Kharn because he DOES supposedly die on a pile of bodies in the Siege of Terra based on the old fluff about him, he just comes back to life when the World Eaters recover his corpse when they retreat from Terra. So we'll see but Kharn may die just as ignominously as Krole does.

Well chances are that if Magnus is involved in the Webway, it's going to be mainly a showdown between Malcador/the Emperor with him, since even if the SoS are there, they won't be the focal point since they're not going to pass up on super DBZ psyker duels between them. Not to mention that it's the collective null aura of the SoS that make a difference, not just one of them, even if its Krole, otherwise they wouldn't work in squads.

Good. I think any effort to humanise him from Betrayer is out the window now for me. I want him humiliated.

Even if they aren’t the focal point they’d probably still be there. Mentioned before but they were at Prospero. There is some beef here along with the Custodians and Space Wolves. You’d have to go from named special character to Miss Substitute. Valdor stood there being like who the hell are you and where did Krole wander off to?It’s basically a downward spiral for the faction. They did tease that there was going to be a massive escalation in the chaos infestation and demonic incursions. Army of nulls would normally be useful in that situation so kind of sucks Dan offed their only character. When you would expect them to be more prominent they’ll have no POV.


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Saint Celestine is a Saint

Clue was in the name all along, you silly Goose!

Her powers are well laid out. Resurrection and her faith protects her like an energy shield. Tears that heal. No super strength. No super speed. No super toughness. That’s done by the wargear she wears. Which is entirely equivalent to Krole. However one can go toe to toe with Kharne and the other gets splatted? It has nothing to do with power level and canon. Dan wanted a bit of dark humour with this character whereas in Gathering Storm they wanted Celestine to be Gandalf the Gold facing off the Witch King. Whilst in the Alpha Legion books she’s meant to be a worthy kill for Lharn as a champion of the emperor and so they had to put her on a level. There is not that massive a gap between Krole and Celestine.

Saint Wargear and Powers which you're conveniently skipping.

Honestly the OP has chosen such a bad hill to die on I'm kinda glad Krole died in a non-epic manner. Not every named Character has to die in some epic fight, anyway.