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Hecaton wrote:
I'd rather SoS had some named characters in current-timeline 40k. I could give a toss about HH-era characters.

Khârn should be terrifying in melee though. He should be able to take on Primarchs.

Nah, if anything Kharn and the World Eaters in general should be portrayed as the incompetent and laughably easy to kill butt monkeys of 40k, only a threat when massively outnumbering their opposition and dying in droves to any respectable Legion. Basically Orks in power armour, only much less competent.

Because that's how a stupid "make landfall and then scatter in every direction looking for manfights" Legion should be regarded as.

Either make them competent or make them incompetent, don't make them act like drooling morons and then pretend that the setting should take them seriously.

This scene would be better if Kharn was unceremoniously ripped to pieces by a fusillade of heavy bolter, plasma, or whatever shots as he ran headlong through an open field waving his axe like the stupid idiot he is.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Giving some context to Kroles demise in Saturnine.
She dispatches numerous World Eater 'named and famed' Captains and Warlords before she has the misfortune to be run over by Kharn. Absolutely spanks them. She takes enough scalps to embarrass the relative few 'heroes' the galaxy has at this time

Also in context Angron and Kharn are at the height of their patron gods favour. Kharn is keeping up with Angron skull for skull at this point. he has even been directly guide by Khornes spirt earlier in the campaign when teeing up The Iron Lords Lt to start blood letting.

Krole had no chance against one of the two most important champions Khorne has at that moment in history. She would have been absolutely mullered in direct face to face combat.

The premier blank would have been left as mush under the full weight of a gods rage and anger made flesh.

So some no-name character that was recently introduced and just human overall happened to be able to kill a bunch of Captains for the Marine Legion all about gladiatorial combat?

If anything the OP is completely off base. That reeks of Mary Sue. OP should be glad she even got as much as she did.

The characters been around for while, has a model and all that. However it’s Forgeworld and not a Primarch. She’s the leader of the Sisters of Silence during the Horus Heresy and if you read the Black Book on Prospero makes a big deal out of her.

Killing World Eater tactical marines is not impressive and has no actual bearing on the story. Give a Guardsman a heavy bolter and you’d have the same results. Basically there’s one page where it’s lists two centurions, a number of other names (15 I think) and “I have killed many, many World Eaters”. Given that she gets trampled unceremoniously by Khan three pages later I take that to be build up to a punchline. It’s not done with the intent of emphasising her as powerful. The loyalists lose the battle and everybody dies. Plus the World Eaters lose nobody important and they have limitless numbers. The author literally makes the point that “the numbers don’t matter and they never did”. So he emphatically says that her killing however many World Eaters be it a dozen or a thousand is irrelevant. That’s the context and moral of the story Dan sets out. Whether it’s a valid point is another matter. He literally has her list fifteen names and then goes nope. Not important. You have to view it in that context. It’s setup for a joke.

Although, to critique Dan on that. If there’s a hundred thousand World Eaters and you kill a hundred thousand world eaters well; numbers would kind of matter at that point.





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 Void__Dragon wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
I'd rather SoS had some named characters in current-timeline 40k. I could give a toss about HH-era characters.

Khârn should be terrifying in melee though. He should be able to take on Primarchs.

Nah, if anything Kharn and the World Eaters in general should be portrayed as the incompetent and laughably easy to kill butt monkeys of 40k, only a threat when massively outnumbering their opposition and dying in droves to any respectable Legion. Basically Orks in power armour, only much less competent.

Because that's how a stupid "make landfall and then scatter in every direction looking for manfights" Legion should be regarded as.

Either make them competent or make them incompetent, don't make them act like drooling morons and then pretend that the setting should take them seriously.

This scene would be better if Kharn was unceremoniously ripped to pieces by a fusillade of heavy bolter, plasma, or whatever shots as he ran headlong through an open field waving his axe like the stupid idiot he is.

My head canon for it is that Khorne is basically pulling a “Battle Meditation” to guide his followers and allow them to make these improbable charges. Essentially a God is looking at reality and saying no. I mean earlier on they blow Angron up with the spaceport guns and he just reforms rather than be banished to the warp for a few thousand years like last time. Coz reasons.

I mean in Pharos they have three militia heavy bolters cut down thirty Night Lords in the open. They only get out of losing more because they had jump packs and training to quickly take the position. If they’re not immune to something as light as a heavy bolter how could they survive charging the Walls of Terra?

Dan Abnett is simultaneously one of the best, and WORST writers for the black Library. He can write amazing characters with deep and interesting back stories like Gaunt, and with the same pen and ink create Bolter trash that defies all lore and logic like Brothers of the Snake or the Eisenhorn series. He is not to be trusted at all with the lore.

The fact that we are talking about a SoS even being close to Kharn is laughable. Kharn can and has slaughtered the mightiest foes in the galaxy, save for the Emperor or a Custodian he's kinda on his own level. Stop even trying to push this. It's like back when someone tried to say the SoB are equal to the Astartes.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Dan Abnett is simultaneously one of the best, and WORST writers for the black Library. He can write amazing characters with deep and interesting back stories like Gaunt, and with the same pen and ink create Bolter trash that defies all lore and logic like Brothers of the Snake or the Eisenhorn series. He is not to be trusted at all with the lore.

The fact that we are talking about a SoS even being close to Kharn is laughable. Kharn can and has slaughtered the mightiest foes in the galaxy, save for the Emperor or a Custodian he's kinda on his own level. Stop even trying to push this. It's like back when someone tried to say the SoB are equal to the Astartes.

... wut?

BrianDavion wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Dan Abnett is simultaneously one of the best, and WORST writers for the black Library. He can write amazing characters with deep and interesting back stories like Gaunt, and with the same pen and ink create Bolter trash that defies all lore and logic like Brothers of the Snake or the Eisenhorn series. He is not to be trusted at all with the lore.

The fact that we are talking about a SoS even being close to Kharn is laughable. Kharn can and has slaughtered the mightiest foes in the galaxy, save for the Emperor or a Custodian he's kinda on his own level. Stop even trying to push this. It's like back when someone tried to say the SoB are equal to the Astartes.

... wut?

Eisenhorn he wrote a part where a Psyker literally destroys a fricking Emperor Titan with a paltry ass daemon host. The same guy gets routinely beaten up by random humans. Then in Brothers of the snake he has a single SM battle brother sneak up on and take down 5 Dark Eldar in hand to hand, before they could even tell he was there. But the same brother later gets beat up by a pack of orks. Dan Abnet is all over the place with his lore. It's convienent plot logic, and it's lazy. At least Gaunt is consistent.

Tiberias wrote:
Considering all that, kharn shouldn't be able to challenge a primarch in a duel imo.

Well, I disagree, because I think it makes for bad narrative design that he isn't. Even if he can't challenge a primarch, though, it wouldn't be for skill, just raw strength, gear, and psychic potential. He's been consistently portrayed as a superlatively skilled combatant (best in the game) across multiple editions.


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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The fact that we are talking about a SoS even being close to Kharn is laughable. Kharn can and has slaughtered the mightiest foes in the galaxy, save for the Emperor or a Custodian he's kinda on his own level.

I mean, Khârn should be able to slap a basic bitch Custodian's gak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Nah, if anything Kharn and the World Eaters in general should be portrayed as the incompetent and laughably easy to kill butt monkeys of 40k, only a threat when massively outnumbering their opposition and dying in droves to any respectable Legion. Basically Orks in power armour, only much less competent.

Because that's how a stupid "make landfall and then scatter in every direction looking for manfights" Legion should be regarded as.

Either make them competent or make them incompetent, don't make them act like drooling morons and then pretend that the setting should take them seriously.

This scene would be better if Kharn was unceremoniously ripped to pieces by a fusillade of heavy bolter, plasma, or whatever shots as he ran headlong through an open field waving his axe like the stupid idiot he is.

I generally lean towards "incredibly bloodthirsty, but competent" portrayals of World Eaters. Do you think that's not how they should be? If so, why do you think they should be portrayed as uniquely incompetent compared to the other Legions?

Hecaton wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
Considering all that, kharn shouldn't be able to challenge a primarch in a duel imo.

Well, I disagree, because I think it makes for bad narrative design that he isn't. Even if he can't challenge a primarch, though, it wouldn't be for skill, just raw strength, gear, and psychic potential. He's been consistently portrayed as a superlatively skilled combatant (best in the game) across multiple editions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The fact that we are talking about a SoS even being close to Kharn is laughable. Kharn can and has slaughtered the mightiest foes in the galaxy, save for the Emperor or a Custodian he's kinda on his own level.

I mean, Khârn should be able to slap a basic bitch Custodian's gak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Nah, if anything Kharn and the World Eaters in general should be portrayed as the incompetent and laughably easy to kill butt monkeys of 40k, only a threat when massively outnumbering their opposition and dying in droves to any respectable Legion. Basically Orks in power armour, only much less competent.

Because that's how a stupid "make landfall and then scatter in every direction looking for manfights" Legion should be regarded as.

Either make them competent or make them incompetent, don't make them act like drooling morons and then pretend that the setting should take them seriously.

This scene would be better if Kharn was unceremoniously ripped to pieces by a fusillade of heavy bolter, plasma, or whatever shots as he ran headlong through an open field waving his axe like the stupid idiot he is.

I generally lean towards "incredibly bloodthirsty, but competent" portrayals of World Eaters. Do you think that's not how they should be? If so, why do you think they should be portrayed as uniquely incompetent compared to the other Legions?

Unfortunately, the way Primarchs have been written so far has made them Highlander characters, where only Primarchs can basically perma-kill one another in a duel unless they choose to allow their non-Primarch duelist to kill them (i.e. Konrad Kurze). The only character that is implied to have died through non-Primarch methods is Dorn and it's more like he's MIA since all they found left was his hand and not the whole body.

Kharn should definitely be able to handle the average Custodes though, given that Valerian, a Shield Captain, who had taken down guys like Bloodthirsters and worse, didn't know if he could outright beat Asterion Moloc when he analyzed him for weakness despite him just being a juiced up Chapter Master. So you bet your butt that Kharn, the chosen mortal of Khorne, would give most Custodes a run for their money.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Eisenhorn he wrote a part where a Psyker literally destroys a fricking Emperor Titan with a paltry ass daemon host. The same guy gets routinely beaten up by random humans. Then in Brothers of the snake he has a single SM battle brother sneak up on and take down 5 Dark Eldar in hand to hand, before they could even tell he was there. But the same brother later gets beat up by a pack of orks. Dan Abnet is all over the place with his lore. It's convienent plot logic, and it's lazy. At least Gaunt is consistent.

It was a warlord Titan, and Cherubael was summoned as raw Warp essence with unrestrained power, and he used up almost all of his power killing that Warlord Titan. Which explains why Eisenhorn was able to then survive Cherubael's assault.

What does Eisenhorn getting beaten up by random humans have to do with anything?


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Hecaton wrote:


I generally lean towards "incredibly bloodthirsty, but competent" portrayals of World Eaters. Do you think that's not how they should be? If so, why do you think they should be portrayed as uniquely incompetent compared to the other Legions?

What portrayals showcase them as acting in a way that would imply competence?

Because they act uniquely incompetent compared to other Legions. Their Primarch deliberately doesn't lead his men, his warriors just run at the enemy with no regard for positioning or laying down suppressive fire. They touch down and literally scatter like cockroaches in a city looking for people to manfight.

And somehow often win, and maintained high Legion strength consistently despite their suicidal manner towards waging war.

I want them to either act competent or be treated like the mouth-breathing drooling morons they are by the narrative.

 Grimskul wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
Considering all that, kharn shouldn't be able to challenge a primarch in a duel imo.

Well, I disagree, because I think it makes for bad narrative design that he isn't. Even if he can't challenge a primarch, though, it wouldn't be for skill, just raw strength, gear, and psychic potential. He's been consistently portrayed as a superlatively skilled combatant (best in the game) across multiple editions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The fact that we are talking about a SoS even being close to Kharn is laughable. Kharn can and has slaughtered the mightiest foes in the galaxy, save for the Emperor or a Custodian he's kinda on his own level.

I mean, Khârn should be able to slap a basic bitch Custodian's gak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Nah, if anything Kharn and the World Eaters in general should be portrayed as the incompetent and laughably easy to kill butt monkeys of 40k, only a threat when massively outnumbering their opposition and dying in droves to any respectable Legion. Basically Orks in power armour, only much less competent.

Because that's how a stupid "make landfall and then scatter in every direction looking for manfights" Legion should be regarded as.

Either make them competent or make them incompetent, don't make them act like drooling morons and then pretend that the setting should take them seriously.

This scene would be better if Kharn was unceremoniously ripped to pieces by a fusillade of heavy bolter, plasma, or whatever shots as he ran headlong through an open field waving his axe like the stupid idiot he is.

I generally lean towards "incredibly bloodthirsty, but competent" portrayals of World Eaters. Do you think that's not how they should be? If so, why do you think they should be portrayed as uniquely incompetent compared to the other Legions?

Unfortunately, the way Primarchs have been written so far has made them Highlander characters, where only Primarchs can basically perma-kill one another in a duel unless they choose to allow their non-Primarch duelist to kill them (i.e. Konrad Kurze). The only character that is implied to have died through non-Primarch methods is Dorn and it's more like he's MIA since all they found left was his hand and not the whole body.

Kharn should definitely be able to handle the average Custodes though, given that Valerian, a Shield Captain, who had taken down guys like Bloodthirsters and worse, didn't know if he could outright beat Asterion Moloc when he analyzed him for weakness despite him just being a juiced up Chapter Master. So you bet your butt that Kharn, the chosen mortal of Khorne, would give most Custodes a run for their money.

Like I've written before, I agree that kharn could handle a "standard" custodian, but given how seemingly special asterion moloc is (I still believe he is some form of frankenstein-esque thunderwarrior experiment), if he were to face kharn, it would be quite an interesting bout. I don't think kharn would just stomp him.

The modern conception of World Eaters (and Khorne Worshippers in general) is the problem with them. Kharn used to be a uniquely nuts berserker who literally chanted "Kill! Maim! Burn!" over and over. But over time rather than being the upper extreme, he has just become the rolemodel for the legion. Khorne used to have heavy weapons and war machines, because y'know, Khorne cares not yadda yadda. But nowadays they are all chainaxe wielding berserkers. I think it made more sense when there were still people in Khornate Warbands with self control and a sense of strategy. Sure, the World Eaters are all lobotimised nutjobs, but there would be others there to cynically use them to best effect in battle.

Turning the entire legion into a bunch of nutters with no restraint... it just doesn't work. Betrayer is a cool novel, but the World Eaters are hands down the worst legion, for sure.

Gotta disagree here. I don't know much about the SoS, but I'm fairly sure they're just regular human women who are psychic nulls, so yes, it seems far more reasonable an outcome of her standing in front of kharn that she gets shredded than not, despite her training.

Also, considering how pasted the traitors got in that book, it was the least they could have given them really.

On the world eaters front, again, I disagree. Sure, they have their stereotype which their media is obviously going to play to, same as any other legion, but their novels do show some of their members trying to keep their tactical ability in spite of the nails.

Tiberias wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
Considering all that, kharn shouldn't be able to challenge a primarch in a duel imo.

Well, I disagree, because I think it makes for bad narrative design that he isn't. Even if he can't challenge a primarch, though, it wouldn't be for skill, just raw strength, gear, and psychic potential. He's been consistently portrayed as a superlatively skilled combatant (best in the game) across multiple editions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The fact that we are talking about a SoS even being close to Kharn is laughable. Kharn can and has slaughtered the mightiest foes in the galaxy, save for the Emperor or a Custodian he's kinda on his own level.

I mean, Khârn should be able to slap a basic bitch Custodian's gak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Nah, if anything Kharn and the World Eaters in general should be portrayed as the incompetent and laughably easy to kill butt monkeys of 40k, only a threat when massively outnumbering their opposition and dying in droves to any respectable Legion. Basically Orks in power armour, only much less competent.

Because that's how a stupid "make landfall and then scatter in every direction looking for manfights" Legion should be regarded as.

Either make them competent or make them incompetent, don't make them act like drooling morons and then pretend that the setting should take them seriously.

This scene would be better if Kharn was unceremoniously ripped to pieces by a fusillade of heavy bolter, plasma, or whatever shots as he ran headlong through an open field waving his axe like the stupid idiot he is.

I generally lean towards "incredibly bloodthirsty, but competent" portrayals of World Eaters. Do you think that's not how they should be? If so, why do you think they should be portrayed as uniquely incompetent compared to the other Legions?

Unfortunately, the way Primarchs have been written so far has made them Highlander characters, where only Primarchs can basically perma-kill one another in a duel unless they choose to allow their non-Primarch duelist to kill them (i.e. Konrad Kurze). The only character that is implied to have died through non-Primarch methods is Dorn and it's more like he's MIA since all they found left was his hand and not the whole body.

Kharn should definitely be able to handle the average Custodes though, given that Valerian, a Shield Captain, who had taken down guys like Bloodthirsters and worse, didn't know if he could outright beat Asterion Moloc when he analyzed him for weakness despite him just being a juiced up Chapter Master. So you bet your butt that Kharn, the chosen mortal of Khorne, would give most Custodes a run for their money.

Like I've written before, I agree that kharn could handle a "standard" custodian, but given how seemingly special asterion moloc is (I still believe he is some form of frankenstein-esque thunderwarrior experiment), if he were to face kharn, it would be quite an interesting bout. I don't think kharn would just stomp him.

Asterion when he charges, just like Kharn, in game can stomp LOTS of characters and units that round. That's consistent with both of them since they've been introduced. Asterion has always had durability on his side of course.

I do myself myself agreeing with the OP that it was pretty dumb. Not everybody has to have a heroic death, not everybody has to die gloriously and be remembered, but it just came across as an unintentional piece of dark humour - the reason I say unintentional is I guess we're meant to see how far off the deep end Kharn is here, that he can score an 'important' kill - or indeed, any kind of kill - and is just in such a state of total and complete red mist that it barely registers. The problem comes from the description implying he just sort of ran into her like a bird hitting a windshield at full speed rather than him being on Khorne auto-pilot at the moment of the kill. Even if they wanted to (correctly imo) show just how doomed Jenetia was, she could've had a few seconds of fight from her POV, hell, that might even as been Abnett's intention (Kharn is just so crazy that he doesn't even recognise he's been actively fighting somebody) but it doesn't come across that way at all.

Although yeah, if it was a named Astartes character a lot of people would probably be in uproar and calling Kharn an author's pet Mary Sue - people still call Shadowsun such because she killed that one previously unknown Raven Guard Chapter Master for example.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
I'd rather SoS had some named characters in current-timeline 40k. I could give a toss about HH-era characters.

Khârn should be terrifying in melee though. He should be able to take on Primarchs.

Nah, if anything Kharn and the World Eaters in general should be portrayed as the incompetent and laughably easy to kill butt monkeys of 40k, only a threat when massively outnumbering their opposition and dying in droves to any respectable Legion. Basically Orks in power armour, only much less competent.

Because that's how a stupid "make landfall and then scatter in every direction looking for manfights" Legion should be regarded as.

Either make them competent or make them incompetent, don't make them act like drooling morons and then pretend that the setting should take them seriously.

This scene would be better if Kharn was unceremoniously ripped to pieces by a fusillade of heavy bolter, plasma, or whatever shots as he ran headlong through an open field waving his axe like the stupid idiot he is.

It's funny you mention that, because one of the most complained about scenes in Gaunt's Ghosts is during Ghostmaker when they more or less use an advancing Basilisk column as bait and then have the marksmen down the group of Khorne Berserkers who come flailing out of the woodwork as predictably hungry for blood as you'd expect - it's probably a case of Early Instalment Weirdness on Abnett's part, but I always liked it.

Isnt that passage preceded by the explanation of how knackered and beaten she already was having been on the font lines for a while - like she was missing fingers or something from memory and was worn out and tired. Plus she is human, not a post human pumped up by a god of war. It was a perfectly good way of showing the hopelessness of the seige - that even someone important can be worn down and killed without recognition (given they have expressed multiple times in that book and others that they SoS are hard to look at and may as well be invisible to most people and Kharn is lost to his nails) in the midst of the biggest fight in the setting.

 Arbitrator wrote:
I do myself myself agreeing with the OP that it was pretty dumb. Not everybody has to have a heroic death, not everybody has to die gloriously and be remembered, but it just came across as an unintentional piece of dark humour - the reason I say unintentional is I guess we're meant to see how far off the deep end Kharn is here, that he can score an 'important' kill - or indeed, any kind of kill - and is just in such a state of total and complete red mist that it barely registers. The problem comes from the description implying he just sort of ran into her like a bird hitting a windshield at full speed rather than him being on Khorne auto-pilot at the moment of the kill. Even if they wanted to (correctly imo) show just how doomed Jenetia was, she could've had a few seconds of fight from her POV, hell, that might even as been Abnett's intention (Kharn is just so crazy that he doesn't even recognise he's been actively fighting somebody) but it doesn't come across that way at all.

Although yeah, if it was a named Astartes character a lot of people would probably be in uproar and calling Kharn an author's pet Mary Sue - people still call Shadowsun such because she killed that one previously unknown Raven Guard Chapter Master for example.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
I'd rather SoS had some named characters in current-timeline 40k. I could give a toss about HH-era characters.

Khârn should be terrifying in melee though. He should be able to take on Primarchs.

Nah, if anything Kharn and the World Eaters in general should be portrayed as the incompetent and laughably easy to kill butt monkeys of 40k, only a threat when massively outnumbering their opposition and dying in droves to any respectable Legion. Basically Orks in power armour, only much less competent.

Because that's how a stupid "make landfall and then scatter in every direction looking for manfights" Legion should be regarded as.

Either make them competent or make them incompetent, don't make them act like drooling morons and then pretend that the setting should take them seriously.

This scene would be better if Kharn was unceremoniously ripped to pieces by a fusillade of heavy bolter, plasma, or whatever shots as he ran headlong through an open field waving his axe like the stupid idiot he is.

It's funny you mention that, because one of the most complained about scenes in Gaunt's Ghosts is during Ghostmaker when they more or less use an advancing Basilisk column as bait and then have the marksmen down the group of Khorne Berserkers who come flailing out of the woodwork as predictably hungry for blood as you'd expect - it's probably a case of Early Instalment Weirdness on Abnett's part, but I always liked it.

That really wasn't the complaint with Shadowsun vs no name Chapter Master though.

 FrothingMuppet wrote:
Isnt that passage preceded by the explanation of how knackered and beaten she already was having been on the font lines for a while - like she was missing fingers or something from memory and was worn out and tired. Plus she is human, not a post human pumped up by a god of war. It was a perfectly good way of showing the hopelessness of the seige - that even someone important can be worn down and killed without recognition (given they have expressed multiple times in that book and others that they SoS are hard to look at and may as well be invisible to most people and Kharn is lost to his nails) in the midst of the biggest fight in the setting.

Given the ugh, abrupt, nature of her death, I don’t think it’s a question of her being a bit tired.

A Null field should shut down any magical boon Khorne was applying to him.

The invisibility thing is unique to this book. Nulls are painful to look at, you are more likely to notice if a null is present; not less.

I don’t feel it’s a worthwhile point. We know they’re going to win. If she is a major Imperial figure alongside the Emperors council, even if only in a notional sense, that would mean people would know about the character and it would matter. If the metaphor relies on the character being literally invisible then that’s a very specific situation.

Given that the later books are going to be heavy on the psychic and demonic side of things it really does not make sense to kill the leader of the Sisters of Silence. You don’t really need to come up with a reason for her to be knocked off. Are we not going to see the faction for the rest of the series? I don’t know. They have started giving Custodians the same ability to pacify demons with their presence so having an army of Nulls clearly isn’t useful in a Chaos Invasion.