I've seen some people on this board claiming that Rogue Trader era 40K is pretty much a ripoff from 2000 A.D. comics of the 80's, from stuff like Rogue Trooper, Judge Dredd and Nemesis The Warlock.

As I've aged, I seem to be looking backwards in time more and more towards the years of my youth, namely 80's and 90's, and have been rediscovering a lot of the things I felt deeply inspiring in my formative years. Something about studying that stuff that is psychologically very rewarding, it feels like going through that stuff when you're older deepens your understanding about yourself.. hard to explain in words. Anyways!

As I got into 40K almost from the start and feel like Rogue Trader-2nd edition 40K is "my jam", I want to learn more about the mindset and the prevailing culture that birthed these things. And since now all these 2000 A.D. classic comics originals from the era are available to buy digitally, would you recommend looking into these comics? Right now, I'm thinking of nabbing at least all the Nemesis the Warlock books, its a nice tidy bundle of only a few volumes in total. Rogue Trooper interests me also, I seem to recall enjoying playing a game with that name on my friends Amiga back in the day LOL - but does Rogue Trooper have any relation to 40K's origins?

Now Judge Dredd, that is a tough one.. I am having difficulties identifying the original volumes that were made in the 80's. There's so much Dredd stuff now! Dredd has undoubtedly been a big influence, as the aquila and idea of hive cities are clearly inspired by it, among other things, like the "Dredd Land Raider" in a RT rulebook diagram and so on. Many of the illustrators who worked with GW at the time were also involved with 2000 AD, and surely that fact has also something to do with the influences showing..

You are probably wondering "This is offtopic! 2000 AD is totally separate IP from GW's?!" And on one hand you'd be right. Cosider this as a meta-level 40K background discussion thread, where I'm mainly interested in learning more about the influences leading into the 40K background. And within that topic, the influence of 80's 2000 A.D. content especially.

2000AD appeared in the 70's.It was a very controversial comic for its day hitting on subjects that no other children's publication would dare tackle. Amazing artwork as well. And compared to other comics did not take things easily or laying down.

I also think that Dredd first appeared in 2000ad very early in its print run possibly as early as issue 2 or 3 which I think would of been issued around 1977 or 1978.

It was the comic that opened my eyes towards sci fi. I am not sure when certain characters appeared but when you get things like Strontium dogs which has more then a passing feel to early 40k and artwork as you show Nemesis which easily could be based in the old 40K world you do start to wonder.

2000ad certainly seems like one of the influences that influenced my generation of the 1970's.

It's not surprising that company's like citadel sold 2000ad related games minis like Judge Dredd. But saying that they also sold Star Trek and Dr Who mini's as well.

Batty wrote:
2000AD appeared in the 70's.It was a very controversial comic for its day hitting on subjects that no other children's publication would dare tackle. Amazing artwork as well. And compared to other comics did not take things easily or laying down.

I also think that Dredd first appeared in 2000ad very early in its print run possibly as early as issue 2 or 3 which I think would of been issued around 1977 or 1978.

It was the comic that opened my eyes towards sci fi. I am not sure when certain characters appeared but when you get things like Strontium dogs which has more then a passing feel to early 40k and artwork as you show Nemesis which easily could be based in the old 40K world you do start to wonder.

2000ad certainly seems like one of the influences that influenced my generation of the 1970's.

It's not surprising that company's like citadel sold 2000ad related games minis like Judge Dredd. But saying that they also sold Star Trek and Dr Who mini's as well.

Ah yes, these were already out around the time I was born! hehehe. I stand corrected on that.

And I also remember GW selling plastic Dr Who miniatures, they were in my local stores around the same time as the first wave of 40K plastics (RTB01, IG, Squats). Didn't remember the Star Trek ones, but now that you mentioned it, I musta seen some metal blisters?

Strontium Dog? That's yet another piece of the puzzle I think. Quick cursory glance of it reminds me alot of how the Imperial Guard looks like in Rogue Trader..

I found a sample of the Nemesis the Warlock book and decided to buy them. Readin the first volume right now and I can definitely feel the influences! Looking forward on digesting all of these and seeing how many "seeds" I can find. I spotted one new reference already, Nemesis has a grandfather called Baal

Also, this screen wouldn't jump out of place in a grimdark comic dont you think?

Fascinating!

Ha, HA! Plastic Dr who minis. That was after my time. I can still see in my mind blister packs of pewter minis. Gosh, just wish I had enough money to buy them back then. They had all the doctors from Hartnell through to peter Davidson. I can only just remember them so they were probably released not long before warhammer 3rd edition. By then I was gradually moving away from the hobby. If only I could turn the clock back.

Nemesis was my favorite 2000ad character. Wonderful art work and a great idea for an antihero.

When did Rouge Trooper appear in 2000ad? Now he's definitely imperial guard in looks. Another superb character.

Going from a rusty memory here but there were other influences that may of influenced early 40K.

There were already sci-fi games like Traveller on the market, and I can also clearly remember old high age weapons starting to infiltrate the early warhammer fantasy games within possibly less then a couple of years after its initial release.

If you check out the first citadel compendium(Love that issue),there is an article called Warhammer & Science Fiction. It really shows how many of us thought about fantasy and sci-fi back then. Even tough they were situated on different ends of the stick often they could meet in the middle and often did in games.

Items mentioned may sound sort of familiar, Laser Pistol, Needler, Hand Flamer, Flame Lance, Bolt Guns, Grenades, Flight Packs. Those warhammer rules were made to be used and adapted to suit whatever was required in a game. They were never set in stone.

Later game supplements appeared that did include more sci-fi weapons as relics left over from the High age by the old ones. Think Slann and Amazons.

Moving warhammer to a Sci-fi setting was only really a matter of time and a natural progression.

It’s a hard one to pick the bones out of.

2000AD and GW both kicked off around the same period (though 40k came later of course). And both companies share influences, from social issues (post Industrial/post Imperial decline), music (Punk, New Wave etc) and politics.

The social issues definitely fed into both. And it’s worth noting both settings (particularly Dredd) evolved, and continue to evolve, their aesthetics.

It also helps, or doesn’t I suppose, that they shared artists, and continue to share artists.

Consider a relatively modern entry in the form of Dan Abentt’s “Insurrection”. It’s set in the Dreddiverse, but I don’t remember Dredd himself turning up in it. In the Hachette “Judge Dredd Mega Collection”, Mr Abnett clearly states his work on 40k heavily influenced things. And the art?



And it’s not at all uncommon in the history part included in most volumes that GW is mentioned, both as an influence, and the influenced. It’s not quite a symbiotic relationship, but there is a limited pool of talent within the U.K., and relatively few places an artist or writer can get published.

I’d say they’ve fed each other pretty equally over the years. A writer who did something for 2000AD might have an idea which fits 40k better, and vice versa.

An artist that gets their break from one, will likely come to the attention of the other. Again, as they share origin influences, said artist might try something on one, and then transplant that style to the other.

But both are quintessentially British. Neither has strict Good Guys in the way US comics do. Indeed, I’m currently reading the first volume of 2000AD’s “The Ten Seconders”. It’s similar in premise to The Boys, Marshall Law and other critiques of Super Hero’s, all notably from U.K. writers. In 40k of course, Nobody Is The Good Guy.

Even in Nemesis, it’s eventually made clear that Nemesis is no Angel. Dredd and Justice Department are nothing if not exceptionally brutal. But, like 40k, their actions are framed by an Argument Of Necessity (however thin it might be).

I got introduced to 2000AD when I was eight, because my mam was worried about my brother and I not reading enough. A teacher recommended comic books and she got us a bunch of 2000ADs without checking what was in it. My tiny mind was blown.

Over the next few years we tracked down various anthologies and old issues in second hand trading magazines.

Later, when I got into 40K and read the 2e rulebooks, loads of it seemed 2000AD inspired. The Arbites were DEFINITELY a take off on the judges, the design of the Chaplain on Bike with the big aquilla (and the aquilla everywhere generally) definitely reminded me of judge dredd, and the megacities of 40K and 2000AD are pretty similar. But more than just that, it was the whole dark ironic take on things, the way that Judge Dredd was the protagonist but also the bad guy in most of the stories, the way Mega City One was such an awful dystopia that resonated when reading about the Imperium.

2000AD was also my first introduction to "Psi" and the idea of Psychic powers, the Cursed Earth is reminiscent of Gorkamorka and the Ash Wastes...
I remember the Land Raiders really clearly as well, and seeing them again in 40K to me just seemed logical and cool. When I read about Baal in the old 2e Wargear book, the first thing I thought of was Nu Earth from Rogue Trooper, a setting I had always found extremely evocative.

Where can you get the back issues online? I would love to revisit some of them, and I never had much of Nemesis the Warlock so I would definitely appreciate reading the full thing.

I’d recommend the 2000ad Ultimate Collection.

It’s currently on issue 86 out of 140 volumes - but it started at just 80 volumes, so it may increase again in future.

https://hachettepartworks.com/en-en/2000-ad-ultimate-collection/

I first got into 2000ad as a nipper in the early to mid 80’s, as the hairdresser near my house always had copies for people waiting.

In fact, I can probably pinpoint on of the Prog’s, as it included a strip of The Dead Man, placing it around 1989. I remember because one of the Sisters of Death pokes out Yasser Povey’s eyes. I’d definitely been reading it before then though, that panel is just one that stuck in my mind (rather like the fingers in Yasser’s eyes).

There’s also the Judge Dredd Casefiles if you just want Dredd. And those are in chronological Prog release order.

https://shop.2000ad.com/catalogue/graphic-novels/dredd-case-files

I’d recommend reading them in order as well, as both Dreddand Megacity One have but a single timeline. Things that happened stay happened, and the writer’s are very happy to raid old strips to create new consequences, as well as creating entirely new problems. Reading them at least vaguely in order definitely helps, though there are some absolute standouts (America, Democracy Now, Necropolis are three I particularly enjoyed)

Thanks a million for that! I can't remember which issue of 2000AD I started with but it would have been some time in 1992. I do remember the first issue of the Judge Dredd Megazine I read though, because it had Dredd killing a man eating plant with his bootknife and I was like "HOW IS THIS ALLOWED IN A COMIC BOOK?", as my previous comic book exposure had been the Dandy and the Beano!

Oh yeah....whilst I’m here....

The absolute best thing ever about 2000AD? Tharg’s Future Shocks. Typically one-shot filler strips of 2-3 pages.

Some have spun off into their own series, which are typically enjoyable and pretty mental.

But the concept of the strip, and unsolicited submissions have seen now established artists plucked from obscurity. Alan Moore in particular crested several (Ultimate Collection has a volume dedicated to his works).

So if you’re a budding comic artist, submit it to 2000AD. Because some day, sooner or later, the release schedule will require a Future Shock to round out a Prog. It may be a breather piece between serials. Or perhaps one serial is partway through, but the art is late.

And it’s one those days The Mighty Tharg will choose a Future Shock.....and perhaps he’ll choose yours!

Add in 2000AD having a pretty vocal fan community, if it’s positively received you may find yourself being asked to create more....maybe even Dredd....

I just went onto the 2000AD store and am now reading the first volume of Nemesis. Ah, man I love black and white line art so much.

Edit: Yeah, you can see a lot of 40K parallels here. Terminators organised into Chapters (I mean a common enough word for organisations of that sort, but still). The extreme Xenos-phobia of the human Empire. A Cabal of aliens trying to figure out what to do about the humans...

 Da Boss wrote:
I just went onto the 2000AD store and am now reading the first volume of Nemesis. Ah, man I love black and white line art so much.

Edit: Yeah, you can see a lot of 40K parallels here. Terminators organised into Chapters (I mean a common enough word for organisations of that sort, but still). The extreme Xenos-phobia of the human Empire. A Cabal of aliens trying to figure out what to do about the humans...

I've read a little bit past book four now, and there have been lots more parallels.. (dont want to spoil them for you hehehe) Brilliant stuff! I already am a big fan of this comic and love the way it opens up the imagination to be more in line with the whole Rogue Trader crazyness. Many of the things in Termight culture also remind me of the great "Descendant Degeneration" thread here on this board, the OP of that thread might find this stuff interesting as well?

Highly recommend perusing some dusty tomes in the 2000AD shop for any Rogue Trader fan! Since no new material in that flavour of the lore etc is ever going to be officially coming anymore, this is a great extension to it, even if it isn't made by GW.

It’s also worth noting that Nemesis, and Termight have a shared History with....

Invasion!

Savage

Ro-Busters

ABC Warriors.

Invasion was the first strip in the first Prog, and detailed the Volgan invasion of Britain.

Fast forward to the early 2010’s (give or take), and we find Howard Quartz, chairman of Ro-Busters trialling Mk1 Hammersteins during an Irish-American attempt to kick the Volgans out of Britain in Savage.

The Ro-Busters and Hammerstein of course show up in several Nemesis strips (or rather, Nemesis shows up in various ABC Warrior strips).

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s also worth noting that Nemesis, and Termight have a shared History with....

Invasion!

Savage

Ro-Busters

ABC Warriors.

Invasion was the first strip in the first Prog, and detailed the Volgan invasion of Britain.

Fast forward to the early 2010’s (give or take), and we find Howard Quartz, chairman of Ro-Busters trialling Mk1 Hammersteins during an Irish-American attempt to kick the Volgans out of Britain in Savage.

The Ro-Busters and Hammerstein of course show up in several Nemesis strips (or rather, Nemesis shows up in various ABC Warrior strips).

I have a feeling some cultural historians are going to love sifting through all these cross references one day!

I was fascinated by the ABC Warriors as a kid. Because it seemed like maybe they were baddies?! The art was amazing for those strips.

Savage is another one I remember pretty well.

Man, there is so much there. Really drives home as well how diverse 2000AD's stuff is. You've got Celtic Warriors, far future robots, space operas, dystopian crime fiction, magic weirdness...

Way into University I was still picking up my weekly prog, but I somehow fell out of it in my mid twenties. I am friends with lots of die hard comic geeks, but I was the only one (apart from my brother) who was into 2000AD for whatever reasons.

It’s a pretty unique entity so far as I’m aware.

Not only for its longevity, but being a weekly anthology. I’ve currently got an annual subscription going (which renews soon), and the great benefit of the anthology structure is even if I’m not enjoying one strip (Caballistics Inc for instance. The art is offputting, as it’s hard to tell who is who), there’ll still be others I will enjoy.

It’s also still really quite experimental. Dredd and friends remain staples, but most years see entirely new strips included. Some are strict arcs, with no intention to revisit. Others become firm favourites.

I suspect that’s the secret to its longevity. Different art styles, different types of stories. They can chase trends, whilst leaving the likes of Dredd alone. Compare to say, Batman, where the Bats from the 60’s is very different to the 90’s. Having at least a string of Standard helps maintain familiarity over the decades.

You also get some incredible art for strips. What was the Undercover Judge story with the insanely detailed line art? I loved just staring at the panels in that one. They really aren't afraid to try stuff out.

And yeah, it being an anthology is really something that sets it apart. It means each strip has to be written in a really punchy way to keep you hooked from issue to issue. There are always a couple of duds in any particular run of progs, but the Dredd stuff tends to be pretty enjoyable no matter what and there is always something really good as well. And even the duds sometimes have really interesting ideas or one off strips.

Wally Squad one would be either The Simping Detective, or Dirty Frank?


Please note that Simping in this context predated the context peeps might be more familiar with.

Got to say, I couldn’t really get on with Dirty Frank. Was just a bit too out there for my sensibilities. The art was definitely impressive though.

Oh, and whilst I remember. Dredd is on Netflix in the U.K. at the moment. Yay! Though the descriptor of “A morally deranged lawman” irks me somewhat.

Dredd is not deranged. Dredd is a study in sheer self control.

Stick Judge Dredd on a random hive world, and he wouldn't know that he was not on Earth until someone told him.

Dredd is probably the most restrained person in the universe.

Just finished reading the first book of the compilation. Lets see, there were battle sisters of sorts, mention of Mechanicus, Automata, Dark Age Of Science, robots being centuries old and the knowledge on how to make them had been lost, Khaos was mentioned, Nemesis's child using mind tricks similar to what genestealers use to fool humans into believing their offspring are humans too.. Ah and the mention that the ABC warrior who looks the most like a beakie marine had "very sensitive sensors" hehe. It doesnt translate 1:1 of course but many, many little things feel instantly familiar.

And check this screen and compare it with 1st edition IG plastics

The adeptus arbites are very dred like

https://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/300813-ARBITE%20Reference%20art.html

The society Dredd inhabits is deranged. Dredd is the result, and he's as unyielding as an iron bar.

(On the outside, at least. There's a lot more going on under the surface with Joe)

I know I've mentioned this before in another thread, but Pat Mills, who co-created 2000AD and wrote Nemesis the Warlock, also wrote the Redeemer series for Black Library and explicitly made the eponymous character an expy of Torquemada from Nemesis. You can't get much closer than that for 2000AD influence on 40K.

I love these kinds of topics. Going to have to pick up a few issues of 2000 AD now.

I have most copies released on a set of discs somewhere. Good to have and make a fascinating read.

However I can kick myself. I used to have the first 50 copies of the comic which I purchased religiously with my pocket money until I left school. When I moved out parents thought they were junk and threw them all out.

I look back now and shudder at the loss.

In terms of the influence, I think it’s also hard to ignore just how influential each property is in terms of U.K. talent, especially for people on the younger end of the spectrum.

I'd recommend watching the documentary "Future shock! The story of 2000AD" as well.

It also explains how so many 2000AD writers and artists became more famous in the USA for the big two comic chain's stuff.

No idea what yall are talking about, but I'm pretty intrigued


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 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Stick Judge Dredd on a random hive world, and he wouldn't know that he was not on Earth until someone told him.

Even then, he probably wouldnt believe it right away

In answer to the original question, as much as Tolkien and Dune.

Andykp wrote:
In answer to the original question, as much as Tolkien and Dune.

I understand what you mean in that pretty much everything in scifi/fantasy fiction which was released after those two have been influenced. However in 2000AD, I think the influences are more in the small details and now that I've read a fair bit of Nemesis, the 40K Rogue Trader book is just screaming the obvious influence of the whole 2000 AD universe. The bonkers techno-barbarism and anarchy, witty texts written in armour and weapons, the whole underlying vibe of dark humour and nihilism.. After some Nemesis, it all makes so much more sense to me than before.

I'm just very happy I found out about this connection. It's very inspiring to me and gives me a lot of ideas for Rogue Trader -era fluff I can come up with. Modern 40K is trodding a complete different path, and this stuff is completely unhinged in comparison. Its obvious to me now why Rogue Trader was kind of an open-ended roleplaying game - It bloody well had to be if anyone would have tried to keep up with all this weirdness!

It also makes me speculate how current 40K could be interpreted if Nemesis was one of the chaos gods and Torquemada was a high Lord of Terra, or even Emperor himself.. that would make all the existing lore a conspiracy theorist's wet dream! (It'd also make me start a Chaos army hehe)


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 Duskweaver wrote:
I know I've mentioned this before in another thread, but Pat Mills, who co-created 2000AD and wrote Nemesis the Warlock, also wrote the Redeemer series for Black Library and explicitly made the eponymous character an expy of Torquemada from Nemesis. You can't get much closer than that for 2000AD influence on 40K.

Interesting! I'll have a look at it as well, thanks for pointing it out.

One thing to keep in mind is that within any time period its possible for different people to come up with very similar ideas such as one might suspect they worked together or one influenced the other, when in actuality its simply happenstance. Because both of those creators were influenced by similar earlier creative works that shaped the ideas they made.

When you then look back on those times from the outside you can then make false connections because you see the direct similarities rather than the different smaller elements that contributed toward both creations.

Its also possible for the creators of 2000ad and 40K to have been influenced heavily by the time they lived in. Anybody who lived through the 70's would agree most of it was a total mess. Strikes, the winter of discontent. A feeling of doom and gloom especially from around the mid 70's into the early 80's .A society that seemed friendly but could also be more violent then today. The IRA in Ireland and bombings. Then the constant threat of Nuclear annihilation. We even went through the odd nuclear drill at school by quickly making a bunker by using our tables. I could go on.

But the state of the country certainly played a part in what was to become 2000ad.That feeling of the era was certainly present in many programs.

Do you guys feel it would be in some way bad if 40K was influenced by 2000AD? Justs comes off a bit defensive from some of the posts here? Could be my interpretation.

It would be interesting if some of the ideas for the fluff of 40k came from 2000ad. Not at all bad, but there would of been many other influences as well.

Its just a huge time gap between them. Rouge Trader appeared around 1987 and 2000ad as long ago as 1977. That is some 10 years for some ideas to seep from one to the other.

But there are just so many other influences that would of tainted either one or both of them.

A good example could be the book Starship Troopers released in the 1950's.

 tauist wrote:

Andykp wrote:
In answer to the original question, as much as Tolkien and Dune.

I understand what you mean in that pretty much everything in scifi/fantasy fiction which was released after those two have been influenced. However in 2000AD, I think the influences are more in the small details and now that I've read a fair bit of Nemesis, the 40K Rogue Trader book is just screaming the obvious influence of the whole 2000 AD universe. The bonkers techno-barbarism and anarchy, witty texts written in armour and weapons, the whole underlying vibe of dark humour and nihilism.. After some Nemesis, it all makes so much more sense to me than before.

I'm just very happy I found out about this connection. It's very inspiring to me and gives me a lot of ideas for Rogue Trader -era fluff I can come up with. Modern 40K is trodding a complete different path, and this stuff is completely unhinged in comparison. Its obvious to me now why Rogue Trader was kind of an open-ended roleplaying game - It bloody well had to be if anyone would have tried to keep up with all this weirdness!

It also makes me speculate how current 40K could be interpreted if Nemesis was one of the chaos gods and Torquemada was a high Lord of Terra, or even Emperor himself.. that would make all the existing lore a conspiracy theorist's wet dream! (It'd also make me start a Chaos army hehe)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Duskweaver wrote:
I know I've mentioned this before in another thread, but Pat Mills, who co-created 2000AD and wrote Nemesis the Warlock, also wrote the Redeemer series for Black Library and explicitly made the eponymous character an expy of Torquemada from Nemesis. You can't get much closer than that for 2000AD influence on 40K.

Interesting! I'll have a look at it as well, thanks for pointing it out.

Glad you like it, there is a definite feel to the early 40K that has been lost over time but the influences are still there, hive cities, arbites obviously but the gangs of necromunda etc. Read between the lines and 2000AD is still there. Soak up that early law and let your imagination go wild. Make a chaos army that worships a lesser known god. Full of techno barbarians. I was always inspired to but never got round to developing a slaver army with walkers inspired by rogue trader and using the necromunda gangers.

In my answer to you I wasn’t trying to underplay the influence of 2000AD but to say it was as great as the more obvious influences.

I think there is cross pollination in both directions. I definitely read stories in 2000AD that seemed to me to be 40K inspired (Glimmer Rats was about a group of future soldiers fighting horrors from an interdimensional breach for example).

And I think it is very much just the guys writing 40K being inpsired by stuff and paying homage to it rather than "ripping it off" because they had no idea the game would get to be so big so they just stuffed all the things they liked into it.

Certainly Dune and Tolkien play a big part in it, and also just trying to reuse stuff from Warhammer Fantasy but IN SPAAAACE, which is why the Holy Roman Empire is sort of the model for the Imperium. And then real world horrors like fascism, totalitarian communism and eugenics are mixed in to try to evoke the most dystopian future possible.

But you can't read Nemesis and not think "Yeah, the guys who made 40K read this!" The art style is similar and a lot of what we would consider typical 40Kisms are abundant.

2000ad was definately an influence on 40k and that's definately a good thing.

I have been trying to get hold of foundry games 28mm Joe Pineapples to use as a Vindicaire Assassin.

In fact it would be awesome to do an ABC Warriors themed ad-mech army but it's a little beyond my skill and finances right now.

 PaddyMick wrote:
2000ad was definately an influence on 40k and that's definately a good thing.

I have been trying to get hold of foundry games 28mm Joe Pineapples to use as a Vindicaire Assassin.

In fact it would be awesome to do an ABC Warriors themed ad-mech army but it's a little beyond my skill and finances right now.

I was just thinking about the same, trying to come up how one could represent those dudes in something like Kill Team for example. Would be rather hard to fit it into existing fluff unless they would be a merc outfit for something like a Rogue Trader; their machine spirits are too sophisticated to not be heretk in the current lore.. Mechanicus and the Inquisition would consider them abominations of the highest order.

I find a lot of the aesthetics of the comics really cool in a quirky retro way that isn't exactly represented in the modern miniatures anymore. They do that buck rogersesque thing for sure now, but the straight line-heavy cyber stuff seems to now be almost completely relegated to T'au faction models? It'd be super cool to see though! You'd probably have to kitbash and convert like crazy to get anywhere near something like that.

There's at least one M&P blog on this board which captures some of that 2000AD aesthetic superbly IIRC. Can't remember the exact thread but his army featured scratch built walker, a scratch built ship, some sort of big head on robotic walking legs and so on.. I need to check it out again! It was a really inspiring looking army.

EDIT: Here it is, weirdingway's Navigator Army! Its like straight out of the comics now that I look it with a "2000AD" lens (I dont mean to say he is ripping anything off here, just pointing out this guy has that elusive scifi style nailed down proper! Crazy good)
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/584689.page

Thanks for the link, that is a very cool blog.

I hadn't got as far as fluff, was just thinking models, but you're right, the warriors are not a fit for ad-mech. hmmmmmm.....

Joe Pineapples.
Vindicare assassin.
Make up your own mind.

The imperium is basically just megacity one on a galactic scale.

Mutants persecuted and denied rights? Check.

Psychic power users either destroyed or turned into tools of the system? Check.

No actual rights for citizens? Check.

Brutal fascist rule with no vox populi? Check.

Ridiculous technology? Check.

Mass despair and insanity? Check.

BTW Joe Pineapples as the original vindicare assassin? Fethin' A!

 Matt Swain wrote:
The imperium is basically just megacity one on a galactic scale.

Mutants persecuted and denied rights? Check.

Psychic power users either destroyed or turned into tools of the system? Check.

No actual rights for citizens? Check.

Brutal fascist rule with no vox populi? Check.

Ridiculous technology? Check.

Mass despair and insanity? Check.

BTW Joe Pineapples as the original vindicare assassin? Fethin' A!

I know that there are aliens in the Dreddverse, but does it have anything akin to Chaos? The only thing that I can think of is Judge Death.

Well, there’s Literal Satan, plus lots of interdimensional gribblies.

Many of the early Imperial army models were repurposed from 2000AD related figures. Rogue Trooper soldiers, Civ Def guys from Judge Dredd etc. There was even an early supplement co branded for 40k and the Dredd RPG. There's literally no mystery here.



Here's a missing link for you, early 40k Arbites prototypes literally made by re sculpting JD heads.



Still available from Foundry.

https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/ex-citadel-games-workshop-models/products/ba001-empirical-absolution-and-liquidation-squad

 Matt Swain wrote:
The imperium is basically just megacity one on a galactic scale.

Mutants persecuted and denied rights? Check.

Psychic power users either destroyed or turned into tools of the system? Check.

No actual rights for citizens? Check.

Brutal fascist rule with no vox populi? Check.

Ridiculous technology? Check.

Mass despair and insanity? Check.

BTW Joe Pineapples as the original vindicare assassin? Fethin' A!

Still common themes in post-War Britain.

Mutants, just as with the X-Men, represent “Other”. The authoritarian regime is a critique and send up of Thatcherism and Reagan type politics.

Where 2000ad served as a British Mirror to Marvel and DC, 40k is a British Mirror on SciFi. They’re both largely satirical commentaries on a world becoming increasingly right wing. Both are of appeal to The Disaffected Yoof, growing up living with the consequences of the older generation.

The roughly shared aesthetic is the same. New, glittering structures amidst the ruin of times gone by. For an example based on historical photos? I’d recommend looking into London Docklands. During the height of the British Empire, it was a bustling hub. When that era ended, it entered serious urban decay. Now? Well, it’s where my office happens to be (not that I’ve been there since March!). And it’s where Canary Wharf sits (previously Europe’s financial capital. Unsure on that right now)...right in the middle of Tower Hamlets, one of the UK’s most deprived areas.

That’s just the one area I’m familiar with, but post-Industrial decline was across the U.K. And without getting into the politics of it, some areas are still in the resulting economic slump.

That’s the backdrop of 40k. That’s the backdrop of 2000ad. It’s also the backdrop of Punk, post-Punk and even the rave scene in the U.K.

Wonderful thread in every way, folks.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Where 2000ad served as a British Mirror to Marvel and DC, 40k is a British Mirror on SciFi.

This makes a lot of sense, from personal experience. I never understood the appeal of Marvel and DC at all, while I've always loved British humour and fiction from an early age. American stuff is usually so simplistic and disconnected from human history and real life with its glimmering power fantasies, while British creators (satirical or not) tends to lean into what's actually interesting with humanity.

Bless Britannia, with loving regards from Sweden.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
The imperium is basically just megacity one on a galactic scale.

Mutants persecuted and denied rights? Check.

Psychic power users either destroyed or turned into tools of the system? Check.

No actual rights for citizens? Check.

Brutal fascist rule with no vox populi? Check.

Ridiculous technology? Check.

Mass despair and insanity? Check.

BTW Joe Pineapples as the original vindicare assassin? Fethin' A!

I know that there are aliens in the Dreddverse, but does it have anything akin to Chaos? The only thing that I can think of is Judge Death.

Yeah, satan, in an issue where the judged murdered a christian preacher and crushed a christian movement because they couldn't allow people to think jesus was more powerful than them. Also the dark judges are apparently avatars of some greater power represented by the weird sisters who created them and are apparently playing s0me sort of game across dimensions and realities.

In recent 40 stuff, like the fall of deadworld and the torture garden the dark judges really went all out chaos god level stuff.

The funny thing is batman can always kick dredd's ass pretty easily. So I guess he'd really whup up on the dark judges.

Reading ABC warriors Mek tales 01 ATM which has the continuation of the Nemesis storyline. The monad in the comic is the craziest looking rendition of some chaotic manifestation I've seen in a while! However, according to the comic, the monad is pure evil, unlike khaos which is said to being a mystical "amoral" power, but is said that could change into being purely evil.. So the Nemesis interpretation of Khaos isn't same as 40K's, unless we consider that "Khaos" is just one aspect of 40K's Chaos (Tzeentch perhaps?)

This is just my personal speculation and conjecture, I'm not claiming these are anything more.. just thinking out loud

It can be assumed that 40k happens in the far future of the Megacity 1/Rogue Trooper/ABC Warriors universe.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It can be assumed that 40k happens in the far future of the Megacity 1/Rogue Trooper/ABC Warriors universe.

Dredd's universe is set in the near-future, and is not the same as that of Rogue Trooper. ABC Warriors I am not sure about but it seems to be further forward than Dredd although there have been some crossovers (it depends on the story I think).

IIRC the pet "Satanus" in Nemesis was brought from Judge Dredd times into the story. I think they even fed one judge to the monster?

I got the feeling that many of the original 2000 AD storylines could interact whenever the writers deemed necessary. This suggests they were all connected somehow, but sure enough, many seem to occupy separate timelines.

Just finished reading all the Nemesis books. Overall I enjoyed the story although I must say I preferred the first volume of the three, things kinda stagnated from there on a bit. The illustration style was awesome though, some of the bigger pictures with technical stuff and the chaotic manifestations of the Monad were particular highlights.

I will be taking a look at Strontium Dogs next. The space pirates and mutants in 40K might find some roots in this stuff, judging from the first few stories I've skimmed through.. I think so far my 2000AD faves are definitely S.D. and Nemesis, Rogue Trooper book one and ABC Mek files 01 seem a bit monotonus and onedimensional "war stories" for the most part? But overall I'm loving it and my enthusiasm for Rogue Trader has been reinvigorated! Heck I might even have to get into Blackstone Fortress

Speaking of 2000AD did you know one of their short stories was later turned into a movie that was actually pretty good and successful?

Thing is the makers didn't credit or acknowledge 2000 AD leading to an ugly lawsuit and keeping the movie out of circulation for a while.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_(film)

Despite the graphics looking like 80's video games hardware holds up fairly well ad is still worth a look if you're into 40k or 2000AD.

 tauist wrote:
IIRC the pet "Satanus" in Nemesis was brought from Judge Dredd times into the story. I think they even fed one judge to the monster?

I got the feeling that many of the original 2000 AD storylines could interact whenever the writers deemed necessary. This suggests they were all connected somehow, but sure enough, many seem to occupy separate timelines.

Just finished reading all the Nemesis books. Overall I enjoyed the story although I must say I preferred the first volume of the three, things kinda stagnated from there on a bit. The illustration style was awesome though, some of the bigger pictures with technical stuff and the chaotic manifestations of the Monad were particular highlights.

I will be taking a look at Strontium Dogs next. The space pirates and mutants in 40K might find some roots in this stuff, judging from the first few stories I've skimmed through.. I think so far my 2000AD faves are definitely S.D. and Nemesis, Rogue Trooper book one and ABC Mek files 01 seem a bit monotonus and onedimensional "war stories" for the most part? But overall I'm loving it and my enthusiasm for Rogue Trader has been reinvigorated! Heck I might even have to get into Blackstone Fortress

Fairly sure Satanus (or maybe his Mum?) first showed up in Flesh!, one of the strips in the first ever Prog

 tauist wrote:


I got the feeling that many of the original 2000 AD storylines could interact whenever the writers deemed necessary. This suggests they were all connected somehow, but sure enough, many seem to occupy separate timelines.

2000AD did an anniversary story called Helter Skelter (IIRC) where due to time-travel/multiverse shenanigans characters from just about every strip cameoed.

So um, yeah.

There’s also 2000ad’s shockingly wide impact on the wider world of comics and Sci-Fi.

Not only has it created absolutely iconic strips, but any Big Name in the industry that happens to be British has almost certainly been printed in 2000ad.

No. Seriously. If you’ve got one in mind, Google their name, adding 2000ad, and I’m confident you’ll get a match.

The same for British born comic book artists.

Some even got their start in Tharg’s most hallowed Progs. And regular Squaxx De Thargo know to look out for Big Names making a return every now and then.

It’s never a bad time to get into 2000ad, and discover some truly Zarjazz Thrill-Power!

Borag-Thung!

(No. I’ve not been drinking. Just frothing with sheer ghafflebette scrotnig enthusiasm!)

The Gothic and Eldritch a.k.a. Jes Goodwin's old sketchbook, had several liner notes pretty much calling out and referring to 2000AD as one of the biggest influences for some of the design aspects of early 40k: Arbites being based on Dredd, the early robot designs inspired by the ABC Warriors and so on.

Rogue Trader, way back when 40k was still a pretty wild concept, is also full of nods and references to 2000AD.

And yeah, 2000AD and GW's talent pool has over the years seen a great many crossovers. A lot of GW authors got their start / made their name with 2000AD as writers for their comics and even the great Pat Mills got in on the 40k fun by doing the Redeemer for GW.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Consider a relatively modern entry in the form of Dan Abentt’s “Insurrection”. It’s set in the Dreddiverse, but I don’t remember Dredd himself turning up in it. In the Hachette “Judge Dredd Mega Collection”, Mr Abnett clearly states his work on 40k heavily influenced things. And the art?

It's a great read and Dan has clearly stated that he wanted to do "40k in 2000AD" with those two books. Given that he's had a crapton of Ghost novels under his belt, reading these was a pleasant experience. As for Dredd not being there, he deliberately left the actual time it took place undefined, it was just something that took place sometime during the reign of the Department of Justice. Also, in Dan's words, if Dredd were to show up, there's be no Insurrection or its sequel Liberty, as Dredd would just stick to the law and see it through.

 Matt Swain wrote:
Speaking of 2000AD did you know one of their short stories was later turned into a movie that was actually pretty good and successful?

Thing is the makers didn't credit or acknowledge 2000 AD leading to an ugly lawsuit and keeping the movie out of circulation for a while.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_(film)

Despite the graphics looking like 80's video games hardware holds up fairly well ad is still worth a look if you're into 40k or 2000AD.

Ahh yes, this one! I believe the movie was called "Mark 13" in Finland (?) Think I've actually seen it once.. IIRC it was a proper B-movie title

I don't think there was as much influence as this thread suggests. Instead growing up in the 70's there was a lot less hand holding than today. 2000AD was remembered fondly by GW designers, and crossovers occured, but I think the seeds of the imagination were already there and have a deeper common root.

With regards to SF and fantasy culture the idea that heroes could be dark and truth could be nebulous were well established in the meta of the 70's fantasy culture.
If anything I think both 2000AD and GW drew inspiration from Moorcock and other 'grown up' fantasy writers of the time who did not shy away from moral dark greys, atrocity and expediency in dark times. GW at least has admitted such. While there ias a touch of 2000Ad in the imagery of GW's properties Moorcock is pretty much the foundation, and on looking back is the foundation for both.

Being a child in the early 70's we had a metas in the UK of ghost stories and ghoulish tales. We knew full well what an inquisition was like even as small children. They werent just black hat boogeymen either, but there was an understanding of why they were as they were.
Hammer Horror helped immensely as it gave personality to dark forces, but we should also add in holocaust remembrance and a clearer understanding of evil, but without the PC makeover of today, or the cotton wool blanket of the 90's.

The idea of a hero fighting an inquisition with the executions thrown in, as a comic for kids had a different reaction in the late 70's than it did today. D&D was growing popularity then, and didn't hold back on the content either. Early role playing was not like today, systems were lethal, life was cheap and the universe also backed this up.

When GW started they included a lot of tropes which are no longer part of the modern packaged tabletop experience. Evil was described as such, not faceless OPFOR wearing black or skullface, but factions that did nasty things with the nastiness methodology and reasoning explained. This was not unique to GW by any means, but they are one of a tiny handful of old guard who are still doing what they did then.

D&D moved on with death saves and tripled up chances to avoid consequence. Meanwhile Nurgles Rot is still an incurable hopeless death sentence and soul corruption.
It does help the not moving on for GW to primarily focus on tabletop wargames, not RPGs. There is no need to bolster survivability of tabletop wargaming miniatures to save players from hurt feelings. Marneus Calgar or Abaddon the Despoiler can die and die again. But modern RPG's require some sort of savegame, and quick replenishment for instant hero playtime.

2000AD still has its rough edges, because it is now part of the trope. Some media gets a pass. Judge Dredd will always be about police brutality and doesnt trigger snowflakes. The media with this exemption is fairly thin. Game of Thrones got a pass because it had cornered the gritty and harsh trope for itself, not quite fairly in my opinion as other media also had harsh writing and character death. But it was certainly noted by the press that the High Sparrow was persecuting gays in Pride Week and the people were not triggered because it was Game of Thrones. The public saw the entire show as being about harsh brutality, and loved it for it.
GW has the same sort of pass, and while there are people who complain about GW's content the company survives that because the religious zealots who commit mass murder and have zero racial tolerance are the protagonists. That in a nutshell is 40K, and the 'it's 40K' gives GW a whole lot of leeway enjoyed by GRR Martin, Judge Dredd and not a lot else.
As this PC pass is a major part of the company franchise, and it sells, it is likely to remain, and parallels to similar culture such as 2000AD will remain too, as they are standouts in modern pop culture for their lack of mollycoddling.

Am I hallucinating or was Pat Mills at Games Day in Birmingham in 1996/7/8? (Year is I hazy)

I remember meeting him and telling him how much I loved 2000AD and he was all “Yeah, well whatever...”. Dan Abnett was lovely and signed my books.

He only wrote the Redeemer as far as I can see in his bibliography, which was done around 2000, he hasn't done anything else for GW.

And yes, Dan's always lovely and polite when signing books.

Pat Mills is obviously a bit of an edgelord sort. I would have expected him to be a bit of a tosser.
Good comics though.

The Redeemer is fun, if a bit cringe at times.

I liked it, but like all of Mills stuff it had it's cringey moments.
He's a good writer though. But never struck me as being particularly interested in being nice.

 Matt Swain wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
The imperium is basically just megacity one on a galactic scale.

Mutants persecuted and denied rights? Check.

Psychic power users either destroyed or turned into tools of the system? Check.

No actual rights for citizens? Check.

Brutal fascist rule with no vox populi? Check.

Ridiculous technology? Check.

Mass despair and insanity? Check.

BTW Joe Pineapples as the original vindicare assassin? Fethin' A!

I know that there are aliens in the Dreddverse, but does it have anything akin to Chaos? The only thing that I can think of is Judge Death.

Yeah, satan, in an issue where the judged murdered a christian preacher and crushed a christian movement because they couldn't allow people to think jesus was more powerful than them. Also the dark judges are apparently avatars of some greater power represented by the weird sisters who created them and are apparently playing s0me sort of game across dimensions and realities.

In recent 40 stuff, like the fall of deadworld and the torture garden the dark judges really went all out chaos god level stuff.

The funny thing is batman can always kick dredd's ass pretty easily. So I guess he'd really whup up on the dark judges.

I just looked up the torture garden. Wow, that is pretty Chaos-y and Lovecraftian, and the art is amazing. I love the idea of the Dark Judges.

Yeah, you really get the cosmic horror feel from it. Dark Judges is probably my favorite storyline. Its one of the reasons 40k spoke to me when I was introduced to the lore side of things.

My own idea of chaos is mixed between the 2000AD stuff and early 40k. More horrific than honorific, more bleak than bright, etc...

Yeah, it's easy to try linking the dark judges to chaos but really the only connection is judge mortis being an obvious nurgle follower. The other are hard to like to the chaos gods. I mean tzeentch is represented by fire but judge fire has no tzeentch feel, fear can't really be linked to slaanesh. Death is hard to link to khorne,

I totally agree with Orlanth, it's 6 and two 3s. Both were written in their time and that was the scifi and fantasy of its time. It was dark and brutal because the time was particularly unpleasant for a lot of people in real life and so artists and writers took that into their settings. Yes 40k was written into being after 2000AD and as a result it definitely provides some inspiration. But then you can't just look at 40k out of context, look at how Warhammer fantasy was brought into being. Consider Steve Jackson and Ian Livingston's Fighting Fantasy, as brutal as they come. It's all tied up around the same period and ideas are pinging off everyone in a creative environment.

As we all do when you are writing something or putting it together, you nick bits from.other people you really like and add that into your own stuff just as other people do to yours. That's one of the most interesting and exciting things about being in a creative space like they were when mags like 2000AD and 40k were being brought to life.

 Olthannon wrote:
I totally agree with Orlanth, it's 6 and two 3s. Both were written in their time and that was the scifi and fantasy of its time. It was dark and brutal because the time was particularly unpleasant for a lot of people in real life and so artists and writers took that into their settings. Yes 40k was written into being after 2000AD and as a result it definitely provides some inspiration. But then you can't just look at 40k out of context, look at how Warhammer fantasy was brought into being. Consider Steve Jackson and Ian Livingston's Fighting Fantasy, as brutal as they come. It's all tied up around the same period and ideas are pinging off everyone in a creative environment.

As we all do when you are writing something or putting it together, you nick bits from.other people you really like and add that into your own stuff just as other people do to yours. That's one of the most interesting and exciting things about being in a creative space like they were when mags like 2000AD and 40k were being brought to life.

Perhaps that's how it was back then... However, now, looking at Nemesis The Warlock, ABC Warriors, Strontium Dogs and 40K Rogue Trader side by side in 2020, there are too many things that aling for it to be insignificant and just as small piece of the overall cultural fondue as you make it to be.

Again, I am not saying the Tolkiens, Moorcocks, Herberts, Steve Jackson/Ian Livingstone stuff didnt also contribute to it all, but to me personally those influences are something I've been aware of throughout my years with the hobby and RPG's in general. To me, the 2000 AD comics were a "missing piece of the puzzle" that furthers my understanding on the origins. A bit like how finding out about the whole Macross/Robotech/Battletech IP wars of the 80s & 90s furthered my understanding of how those things relate to one another.

I wonder, have you read the old 2000 AD stuff lately? Not saying you haven't, just curious to know if you are only coming to this discussion based on your recollection of those times around 70s-80s..

Forgive me, not dismissing the view that 2000AD didn't influence 40k, I meant in my post that indeed it did all of it burgeoning together. Just to me I don't think it was perhaps utterly direct, more osmosis?

We need to also recognise that 2000AD is stuck in the late 70's early 80's. The comic may have moved on but our recollections have not, neither has the popular culture. A lot of the characters that tauist mentions were from the early progs. The classic stories and characters people remember are from then.
Some notable characters finished their story arcs in the 80's, including Nemesis the Warlock which ran from 80-89. Strontium Dog ended in 1990 though the character was resurrected later.
If you are comparing side by side in 2020/1 you are comparing now to then. 40K has actually moved on a lot, 2000AD is a shadow of itself.

What people remember from 2000AD are the early influences in the storyline, but the tempo of the comic was the metaculture of the 70's and 80's which a lot of media shared. Games Workshop had a lot of staff crossovers with 2000AD because it was a small workplace in the larger economy but both 2000AD and Games Workshop were both co-influenced by the times.

As Olthannon correctly points out early GW products were gritty, Fighting Fantasy racked up a body count of adventurers. Early D&D included a lot of save or die with poor save profiles. Runequest and later Rolemaster were popular at the time with their extreme brutal combat systems and GW was heavily invested in these via White Dwarf. In the early 80's White Dwarf and 2000AD were almost corunners, with White Dwarf characters and characterisations having a lot of similarities, though White Dwarf mainly included their characters as parody.

Cursed Earth? Polluted hiveworlds? Both stem from the post-apocalypse craze of the time. The turn of the 80's brought us Mad Max with the two early films showing both ends of the transition. This was an era of the tail end of the nuclear nightmare, which in the 50's and 60's had people thinking we are all about to die in nuclear fire, and people in the 70's and 80's thinking about what life would be like after the bomb. The 70's was an era of nihilism and depression, the economic collapse, social unrest, post-Vietnam and mass scale industrial action they all added to the zeitgeist. Add into the mix the dark fantasy from a more upbeat era of Moorcock that followed well into the times and the rise of interest in Lovecraftian themes and you will see that it would be more unusual if there were not a cultural cross pollenization of the gaming and comics media of the time.

Bottom line, Games Workshop were not copying 2000AD, they both drank from the same well.

All may be true, but i still think that the nightmare imperium was at least partially based on the idea of mega gakky one in judge dredd.

There was an interview I saw recently on U-tube with Rick Priestley where he mentions Slaine in passing as an influence on some miniatures he had painted or worked on. But this was in regards to fantasy and not sci-fi.

 Matt Swain wrote:
All may be true, but i still think that the nightmare imperium was at least partially based on the idea of mega gakky one in judge dredd.

Orlanth has the right of it.

Both 2000ad and GW don’t exist in a cultural vacuum. The founders of both are in the same age range, meaning they’ll have grown up with much the same influences. This includes pop culture, and a particularly change in the face of Britain (post imperial, midst of a serious economic downturn, end of industrialisation, and eventually the impact of Thatcherism and the free market).

Both are also clearly anti-authoritarian, with distinct Punk influences. And at the risk of sounding overly, well, maybe dismissive? They’re both very, very British.

I really could spout on for hours about this, and some of it might even be entirely accurate!

But to boil it down? Without 2000ad, 40k would likely be much the same, because both are reactions to the same cultural stimulus. Would Arbites look the same? Probably not. But they’d likely act the same, as both Judges and Arbites are satires on paramilitary Police forces (all body armour and violence). And both were at least partially informed by shows such as Blake’s Seven



In terms of Necromunda/Confrontation gangs? Well, both have influences from the look of Sigue Sigue Sputnik. Who?



That’s Sigue Sigue Sputnik.

Then there’s Heavy Metal. Both the film and genre of music (my second favourite, behind Punk/Post Punk).

Going back to the political scene, without any commentary or judgement there on? Miner’s Strike, Brixton Riots, Cardboard City, general civil strife up and down the country as the UK’s economic system was shifted. Unions were demonised and shattered. Right Wing press barons started to exert serious influence on the political structure. Industries were forcibly closed in some areas, with nothing offered in replacement. Poll Tax Riots. 4 day weeks due to power shortages. The general decline and then privatisation of previously nationalised industries.

Suffice to say, again without any commentary, there was a lot of unhappiness in the U.K. at all ends of the country. That....doesn’t pass without influencing creative types. From urban decay left behind by closed industry, to the reaction of the general populace.

Neither 2000ad or 40k would’ve been where they are today if what they made of it hadn’t tapped into that zeitgeist.

I'd be interested to know if any of the early 40k writers (Rick Priestly et al) actually knew John Wagner, Alan Grant etc.) It's already been pointed out that a lot of the artists from that time did work for both, and that was quite literally painting the universes that we came to imagine.

Interesting post by MDG above about those awful haircuts Think it's undeniable there was a 'fashion' for SF and fantasy that both 2000AD and GW tapped into, even if there wasn't any direct collaboration.

I definitely think it's very likely that some elements (thinking of one ABC Warriors storyline in particular about Chaos vs. Order, as well as a lot of the Slaine stuff) either borrowed from Michael Moorcock and his idea of a pantheism of gods and 'chaos' or else one borrowed the idea from the other publication - would need to look at dates.

One thing that (I don't think) has been mentioned is the very dark sense of humour/satire that was present in 2000AD and early 40k, which I think (and I definitely remember thinking this at the time) really made them seem like birds of a feather. This has almost completely gone now from 40k and has been for some time, but still survives to an extent in 2000AD (although I don't think is on the same level as some of the earlier 80s/90s with Ro-Busters, ABC Warriors etc.)

I just don't see how MDG and Orlanth, with full respect, can so confidently say that 40K was not influenced by 2000AD. I agree, they were coming from a common cultural place, but that does not preclude influence or really suggest that 40K would be the same without 2000AD.

The question is how much 2000ad influenced 40k, not whether it was influenced at all

Most of the earliest 2000ad strips lean on other media as their influence. From there, creativity is added and say, Dredd is born.

Remove 2000ad, and I think 40k would likely have still come to be. It may have been a different beast, but not radically so.

Let’s have a look at 2000ads early line up.

You’ve got Invasion!, Dan Dare, Harlem Heroes, Flesh and M.A.C.H.1.

None of those are anything like 40k. Judge Dredd debuted shortly after, and eventually became the poster boy everyone knows and loves - but his and MC-1’s evolution took time.

MC-1 is also quite different to a Hive City. In terms of Termight and Torquemada? Well, hen is the arch bigot - but no corpse on a throne commanding a galactic empire.

Nor has 2000ad ever really dabbled in the super soldier trope, barring Rogue Trooper who bears little design resemblance to anything in 40k.

So whilst the aesthetic of 2000ad likely influenced 40k, both were reactions to the same cultural stimuli, with overall far more differences than similarities.

I'm not sure trying to look for direct comparisons between characters and archetypes (between 40k and 2000AD), and therefore saying there was little influence, is the right way to think of it.

For me it is about the 'feel' of the two universes and their inhabitants. And to me, that is an absolute no-brainer. Reading RT and 2000AD went absolutely hand in hand when I was a kid, and I think there were very few 40k fans at that time (and visa-versa, 2000AD readers) that weren't aware of the other material. That extremely dark, very British view of dystopia, that is in fact so depressive that it actually comes out the other side and becomes almost humerous.

I think that's the key difference nowadays - how that sense of humour and satirical view of dysoptia has diverged from modern 40k (whether you think that is good or not is subjective, but a good deal of it has gone).

This was a long time ago now, 30 years or more, so I struggle to give more evidence than a very anecdotal and qualitative statement about this kind of thing. But, to me it's an absolute triviality. If you read Rogue Trader, the supporting books and some of the other articles that were around that time, they were absolutely birds of a feather.

Otherwise you'd need to check with Rick Priestly et al and ask "how much of 2000AD was an influence on your early 40k work?" Although I think even in that case there would still be people in this thread trying to argue against it

 Pacific wrote:
I'm not sure trying to look for direct comparisons between characters and archetypes (between 40k and 2000AD), and therefore saying there was little influence, is the right way to think of it.

For me it is about the 'feel' of the two universes and their inhabitants. And to me, that is an absolute no-brainer. Reading RT and 2000AD went absolutely hand in hand when I was a kid, and I think there were very few 40k fans at that time (and visa-versa, 2000AD readers) that weren't aware of the other material. That extremely dark, very British view of dystopia, that is in fact so depressive that it actually comes out the other side and becomes almost humerous.

I think that's the key difference nowadays - how that sense of humour and satirical view of dysoptia has diverged from modern 40k (whether you think that is good or not is subjective, but a good deal of it has gone).

This was a long time ago now, 30 years or more, so I struggle to give more evidence than a very anecdotal and qualitative statement about this kind of thing. But, to me it's an absolute triviality. If you read Rogue Trader, the supporting books and some of the other articles that were around that time, they were absolutely birds of a feather.

Otherwise you'd need to check with Rick Priestly et al and ask "how much of 2000AD was an influence on your early 40k work?" Although I think even in that case there would still be people in this thread trying to argue against it

Absolutely! The bonkers and very black humour laced narrative has that British thing going on in both. But it's also the little nods here and there, like the chainsword & chainaxe Torquemada uses, the Termight warrior ladies who sport an ultramarine symbol in their helmets etc.. I think many of the little things have hidden references like that in Rogue Trader.

In hindsight, I should have titled the thread "How much 2000AD has influenced Rogue Trader?", would have been a more precise and perhaps less controversial sounding topic, especially since that "tone of voice" has been absent from 40K proper for editions now, but oh well.

Modern 40K is much more of a power fantasy like an American Superhero comic rather than the sort of thing that was in 2000AD, where you might have power but it is likely all for naught as you achieve nothing or only terrible things or stagnation with your power if you even have it.

Rogue Trooper is probably one of the biggest power fantasy protagonists in 2000AD but he achieves bugger all really. Nu Earth is still a hellscape riven by war no matter what he does.

 Da Boss wrote:
Modern 40K is much more of a power fantasy like an American Superhero comic rather than the sort of thing that was in 2000AD, where you might have power but it is likely all for naught as you achieve nothing or only terrible things or stagnation with your power if you even have it.

Rogue Trooper is probably one of the biggest power fantasy protagonists in 2000AD but he achieves bugger all really. Nu Earth is still a hellscape riven by war no matter what he does.

Speaking of Rogue Trooper, it feels to me very similar to the many WW2 comics I read as a child. It has the same style of narrative and the same kind of tropes/narrative cliches. Although I like the way the space germans look (Nort army? do I remember that right), current 30K auxilian lasgunners have that same feel!

Yeah, the Norts are the Space Germans, the Southers are the Space US, with the GIs being bigger and better engineered up GIs.

Given Foundry produced a large range of citadel derived Judge Dredd miniatures? https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/2000ad They were very much aware of it and many of the 40k original sculpts were resculpts of this range and directly influenced by it. This isn't however a bad thing but is how pop cuture works (so lonag as you ignore GW's lawyers and Chapterhouse......)

 Pacific wrote:
I'm not sure trying to look for direct comparisons between characters and archetypes (between 40k and 2000AD), and therefore saying there was little influence, is the right way to think of it.

For me it is about the 'feel' of the two universes and their inhabitants. And to me, that is an absolute no-brainer. Reading RT and 2000AD went absolutely hand in hand when I was a kid, and I think there were very few 40k fans at that time (and visa-versa, 2000AD readers) that weren't aware of the other material. That extremely dark, very British view of dystopia, that is in fact so depressive that it actually comes out the other side and becomes almost humerous.

I think that's the key difference nowadays - how that sense of humour and satirical view of dysoptia has diverged from modern 40k (whether you think that is good or not is subjective, but a good deal of it has gone).

This was a long time ago now, 30 years or more, so I struggle to give more evidence than a very anecdotal and qualitative statement about this kind of thing. But, to me it's an absolute triviality. If you read Rogue Trader, the supporting books and some of the other articles that were around that time, they were absolutely birds of a feather.

Otherwise you'd need to check with Rick Priestly et al and ask "how much of 2000AD was an influence on your early 40k work?" Although I think even in that case there would still be people in this thread trying to argue against it

I totally agree with this post, looking for direct comparisons is more suitable for a thread called "How much exactly has 40K plagiarised 2000 AD?" rather than the influence on 40K. 40K started to drift much more into its own thing around 3rd edition but even things like Necromunda and Mordheim had strong 2000 AD vibes as regards to the humour, the style, etc. Yeah, GW and Tharg and his droids were all drawing from the same cultural pool but if you think that 2000 AD wasn't a major part of that cultural pool for GW then you're on the wrong track entirely.

I have to say that a few other sources influenced 40k too. Asimov's foundation series made the idea of technology being a religion and ministerted to by priests a thing, and in one scene a 'tech priest" shuts down an old space battleship found adrift in space and revamped by 'cursing' it, which was a cover for what we'd call hacking today.

You can see how the church of science must have influenced the admech.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Science

 Da Boss wrote:
I just don't see how MDG and Orlanth, with full respect, can so confidently say that 40K was not influenced by 2000AD. I agree, they were coming from a common cultural place, but that does not preclude influence or really suggest that 40K would be the same without 2000AD.

They are siblings, not parent-child. GW grew up alongside 2000AD. Look at early White Dwarfs the mentality that led to 40K was already there, from the outset. The grit was integral to the culture. 40K is Morcockian fantasy in space, with added nihilism, early 40K was actually darker than it is now with very few positive tropes. 40K is way more grimdark than 2000Ad ever was. Mega City one has problems but the judges are how they are because society needs them to be. If you choose not to break the law the judges have your back, if you didn't commit the crime the judge will let you go etc etc. There is a lot of mitigation complete absent from 40K. A Mega City justice department actual does care about the citizenry and the city in a way an Imperial Governor seldom does, citizens have rights, welfare and prospects, all three overtaxed by overpopulation but they are there, and if a Mega City is attacked City Def will help the populace and the judges again will do what they can to defend the citizenry, they are not exploitable numbers.
Judge Dredd is about the consequences of environmental collapse and catastrophic overpopulation, 40K is about ultra expediency, inefficiency and greed resulting in a recurring holocaust.
I really am not seeing where 40K stems from 2000AD in any way that doesn't reflect other tropes of the time. Yes 40K themes occurred in Thargs Future Shocks, but most of those were nihilistic episodes based on pre-existing cultures, and nobody with an education should consider the excesses, mentality and moral philosophy of the Inquisition or Adeptus Terra based on any comic when there are horrible realm world equivalents from our history, or in the case of the times from their present in the form of the Soviet Union.

The closest to a crossover was Rogue Trooper as a super soldier, which is a central theme to 40K, but the even there are closer parallels. Lets go through the (clearly non exhaustive) list.

Rogue Trooper - eugenics program theory from 1930's
Judge Dredd/Mega City One/Halo Jones - fairly original but with no 40K connexion, basically a mess of many usually opposed cultural references
Strontium Dog - superhero comics, with radiation mutation being a common theme
Nemesis - Scarlet Pimpernel, maybe a bit of Blakes 7
Slaine - Conan

and for 40K

most aliens - their fantasy equivalent
Imperium of Man - Soviet Union, with Witchfinder General, neo-feudal capitalism, agressively policed religious dogma and Imperial Roman politics
Adeptus Astartes - Starship Troopers

Some artworks had similar authorship because the creative circle overlapped, but that wasn't one copying the other as much as both hiring the same guys with their own artistic vision.

Meanwhile I can see echoes of Sauron, Moriarty and the Mekon in both 40K/Warhammer and 2000AD not so much as in they are just the endbosses but in how they think. British fantasy villains tended to have well rounded thinking and philosophies, and were not moustache twirlers a la Ming the Merciless.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt Swain wrote:
I have to say that a few other sources influenced 40k too. Asimov's foundation series made the idea of technology being a religion and ministerted to by priests a thing, and in one scene a 'tech priest" shuts down an old space battleship found adrift in space and revamped by 'cursing' it, which was a cover for what we'd call hacking today.
You can see how the church of science must have influenced the admech.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Science

This. Should have mentioned the Foundation trilogy as a clear influencer.

 Horla wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

Otherwise you'd need to check with Rick Priestly et al and ask "how much of 2000AD was an influence on your early 40k work?" Although I think even in that case there would still be people in this thread trying to argue against it

I totally agree with this post, looking for direct comparisons is more suitable for a thread called "How much exactly has 40K plagiarised 2000 AD?" rather than the influence on 40K. 40K started to drift much more into its own thing around 3rd edition but even things like Necromunda and Mordheim had strong 2000 AD vibes as regards to the humour, the style, etc. Yeah, GW and Tharg and his droids were all drawing from the same cultural pool but if you think that 2000 AD wasn't a major part of that cultural pool for GW then you're on the wrong track entirely.

The thing is Rick Priestly, Andy Chambers et al, were reading 2000Ad progs on a weekly basis, it was the thing people of our generation and cultural background did. However that influenced far less than they might themselves suspect. Take this as a point, Gw has been very clearly litigious about ;their' IP because they thought it was theirs. They read their 2000AD and wrote their own stuff.
But their actual influencers were Moorcock, Tolkien Asimov and Heinlein.
The best comparison to 2000AD is that it was the only media of its kind at the time, somewhere where you could get imnaginative SF and fantasy. But Doctor Who and Blakes 7 were also producing well throught through characters and plots at the time, with the 70's being the high water mark of Doctor Who.
Meanwhile some imagery from 2000AD influenced imagery of 40K because the artists were in the same room same mold or same body for both productions.......
while....
the Adeptus Mechanicus ARE the Tech-priests of Terminus
the Adeptus Astartes ARE the Mobile Infantry
the Inquisition ARE Hammer horror's Witchfinder General, plus some Monty Python and of course the real thing.
Chaos ARE Chaos (as depicted by Moorcock, and yes they admited that one while still trying to trademark the chaos star)

Other strong influences are Gloranthan Runequest, and its convoluted theology and spaghetti like moral threading, which GW published under licenced. Much of the paradox of Imperial morality stems from greg Staffords work on the same.

Saying 40K copies 2000AD is two dimensional at best, ignored the deep cultural well that existing in the 70's and 80's, which is largely forgotten today. I was active at the time and drank from the same well too, andc can see the origins of the tropes. 2000AD is what you see and is a shallow answer, Moorcock, Tolkien, Asimov and Heinlein, plus British Sf television of the time are what actually lurks beneath. Remember the true influencers are not the media you watch everyday but the media you grew up with and shaped your thinking. Most GW designers had already shaped thinking before 2000Ad was a thing bercvause they were the same generation as 2000AD writers and illustrators.

 Orlanth wrote:

Nemesis - Scarlet Pimpernel, maybe a bit of Blakes 7
.

Hadn't thought about it but now that you said it, totally see Scarlet Pimpernel.
Bravo
I love Blakes 7
I love Nemesis
makes sense

 Orlanth wrote:
Saying 40K copies 2000AD is two dimensional at best, ignored the deep cultural well that existing in the 70's and 80's, which is largely forgotten today. I was active at the time and drank from the same well too, andc can see the origins of the tropes. 2000AD is what you see and is a shallow answer, Moorcock, Tolkien, Asimov and Heinlein, plus British Sf television of the time are what actually lurks beneath. Remember the true influencers are not the media you watch everyday but the media you grew up with and shaped your thinking. Most GW designers had already shaped thinking before 2000Ad was a thing bercvause they were the same generation as 2000AD writers and illustrators.

I'm certainly not trying to say that 40K copies 2000AD because, as I point out in my post, that amounts closer to plagiarism than to influence - like you can be influenced by Heironymous Bosch and never paint a picture of a demon playing a trumpet with its arse. Nor is anyone trying to say (or at least most are not) that 2000AD is 40K's sole influence, it's absolutely a mix of all those things you mention - and more. There's military and political history, mythology, weird fiction, Gothic horror, Hollywood and homegrown cinema, punk and heavy metal, contemporary news and events, and lots more than even just the various sci fi and fantasy we've largely discussed in this thread. I still think 2000AD is a major chunk of 40K's DNA precisely for the reason you mention: it was the major conduit in the UK for most of the sci fi and fantasy ideas (either original 2000AD ideas or older influences filtered through modern storytelling). Even in the 90s it was about the only thing you could reliably pick up in a local newsagent that covered these things, White Dwarf or other comics (that weren't Beano or The Dandy) only existed in the big newsagents in town.

Absolutely nobody in this thread at any point has said GW has copied 2000AD. We are talking about influence and cross pollination, in both directions! I really cannot understand the sensitivity and defensiveness to this point from several posters. Is it because GW are often accused of ripping things off and people have gotten used to defending them? It's just silly. GW obviously rip everything off, that's why they are great! They ripped off everything they were excited about and mixed it all together with their life experience to create something awesome.

It's no less awesome for not being totally original or whatever. Rather than trying to fruitlessly argue that there is no way that there is any 2000AD influence on 40K I reckon it would be useful to reflect on why you would feel the need to make such an argument at all. It is baffling to me.

There’s no sensitivity. Just deeper explanations, including the social and economic climate of Britain that both sets of creators grew up in.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There’s no sensitivity. Just deeper explanations, including the social and economic climate of Britain that both sets of creators grew up in.

Indeed, everything influences everything connected to it. Saying 2000AD influenced 40K is redundant because everything else in SF that was connected was an influencer, some as things to copy others as things to avoid.
but the find the key influencers, which is what people think by the concept of an influencer, means to go much deeper.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There’s no sensitivity. Just deeper explanations, including the social and economic climate of Britain that both sets of creators grew up in.

Exactly, the bleak reality of the time was just advanced into an even bleaker future, that is something that 2000AD and Warhammer are deeply influenced by. That is the melting pot in which they were both birthed. It was hard to imagine a Star Trek esque future of goodwill and unity.

This thread has been a bit of a nostalgic trip reading it.

Without going to deep into who I hung around with at this time, but names would be recognized I would opine that we all hung out and talked to each other.

The author in me would say, there are no new ideas only new treatments.

So, Nemesis and WH40K call on a certain future gothic look that might arguably have been said to be a mash up of punk meets glam rock (David Bowie for example).

Laserburn table top rules inspired by the same idea of power armoured infantry that Heinlein's Starship Trooper rocked. Not to forget the tremendous influence of Giger and Mad Max.

So WH40K is not stealing from 2000AD, but they are in conversation with each other, and by that I mean a creator hears about a story and goes, 'what if...".

Anyway, great fun talking about this.

Definitely, really interesting thread to read.

I did remember reading an interview with Rick Priestly and managed to find it on Reddit, has a few bits in there about influences on his ideas of 40k and also some of the parallels to our history which are quite interesting

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/9z42fy/qa_with_rick_priestley_part_2_the_lore_of/

Sorry to necro this a bit, but got email from the 2000AD publisher and there's a thrillcast episode which gives further insight into the origins of 2000AD. I think these influences echo also in the beginnins of GW's products as well, and might be interesting for people like me who haven't grown up in UK around those times. Understanding the past more makes you better understand the present.

https://soundcloud.com/2000-ad/kevin-oneill-part-one

Thanks for that, I will definitely give it a listen!

Worthwhile listen for sure. Thanks a lot, sir!

For anyone wavering on deciding whether to subscribe or re-subscribe to 2000ad, I would say go for it, the quality is really good right now.

Ah thanks PaddyMick I had had a subscription previously but had found myself not being that bothered by it and so cancelled (that was probably a year ago). If there are some good individual issues coming along I might have a look again then. Are you getting just the weekly or the monthly megazine as well?

Just the weekly. I tend to buy the monthly as and when there is a strip I want to read, like the recent new Devlin Waugh. I may pick it up now for this new one called Metropolis, which looks interesting.

In the weekly I generally find there are one or two strips I am not bothered about (and there have been ones I actively detest) but right now they are all good. The new Slaine artist is almost as good as Bisley; none of that weird photo stuff that Clint Langley did, and Pat Mills is on form.