If someone tries that, in a tournament, then we're not finishing that turn, and that player is not going to win. In a lot of tournaments that could be a pre turn 3 end to the game, resulting in penalties to both players. Sucks to be them.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If someone tries that, in a tournament, then we're not finishing that turn, and that player is not going to win. In a lot of tournaments that could be a pre turn 3 end to the game, resulting in penalties to both players. Sucks to be them.

I don't know what tournaments you have been to, but every tournament I have been at (like NOVA) I believe would call a judge and ask the judge to rule on the ability if the players disagreed. Assuming the judge allowed infinite grenades, then either chess clocks would be brought out or one player could concede. There would be no penalty on anyone.

This is also assuming the tournament didn't issue it's own pre-event FAQ.

Audustum wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If someone tries that, in a tournament, then we're not finishing that turn, and that player is not going to win. In a lot of tournaments that could be a pre turn 3 end to the game, resulting in penalties to both players. Sucks to be them.

I don't know what tournaments you have been to, but every tournament I have been at (like NOVA) I believe would call a judge and ask the judge to rule on the ability if the players disagreed. Assuming the judge allowed infinite grenades, then either chess clocks would be brought out or one player could concede. There would be no penalty on anyone.

This is also assuming the tournament didn't issue it's own pre-event FAQ.

Oh yeah, if I were a TO I'd never allow this.
Likewise, if you tried to pull this in a casual game, I'd laugh, and if you were serious, you'd get the stink eye something fierce, and likely not get a game again.

No, I also wouldn't allow it. But if there was an allowance for it to operate, nthe chess clock is out and the Bragg player absolutely times out.

Is it really that much of a problem? After Bragg has killed everything in 6" ok great, then his turn is over, and onto the next turn. Are we seriously worried about bragg suddenly appearing within 6" of a Knight Lancer or a Baneblade and dropping it turn 1?

 p5freak wrote:
It still works, all bragg needs to do is throw a grenade the first time. Then no hits were scored with his autocannon, and he can shoot again with the grenade. After he attacked with a grenade the unit has resolved its attacks.

No, it absolutely does not work more than one additional time.

The Shoot Again section of Rare Rules. "When a model shoots again, that model can shoot with any weapons it is equipped with that it has already shot earlier in that phase one additional time." Doing it a second time is against the rules.

How are you ignoring the rules that say "one additional time"?

Two or more times is not "one additional time".

 DeathReaper wrote:

How are you ignoring the rules that say "one additional time"?

Two or more times is not "one additional time".

Braggs rule says he can shoot again. Thats more specific than this general rule. Special rule overrides general rule.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

How are you ignoring the rules that say "one additional time"?

Two or more times is not "one additional time".

Braggs rule says he can shoot again. Thats more specific than this general rule. Special rule overrides general rule.

Only when his unit gets done shooting. They do not have permission to shoot a second time.

Any way you slice it, he can only shoot one additional time.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

How are you ignoring the rules that say "one additional time"?

Two or more times is not "one additional time".

Braggs rule says he can shoot again. Thats more specific than this general rule. Special rule overrides general rule.

Only when his unit gets done shooting. They do not have permission to shoot a second time.

Any way you slice it, he can only shoot one additional time.

When bragg is the only model shooting his unit is done shooting. There is nothing in the rules saying that the entire unit must shoot. One model out of ten shooting is fine.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

How are you ignoring the rules that say "one additional time"?

Two or more times is not "one additional time".

Braggs rule says he can shoot again. Thats more specific than this general rule. Special rule overrides general rule.

Only when his unit gets done shooting. They do not have permission to shoot a second time.

Any way you slice it, he can only shoot one additional time.

When bragg is the only model shooting his unit is done shooting. There is nothing in the rules saying that the entire unit must shoot. One model out of ten shooting is fine.

When bragg is the only model shooting his unit is done shooting the first time they shoot.

After that the unit is forbidden to shoot again, but a single model (not the unit) gets to shoot if he did not hit with his autocannon.

We need to see a citation that allows you to shoot more than once for the unit that Bragg is in. Thus far only the bragg model has permission to shoot again, not the unit. If you can not provide a citation, then we can consider this closed.

Any way you slice it, he can only shoot one additional time.

We have to agree to disagree, because this is going nowhere.

Bragg is clearly part of his unit, as such Bragg shoot necessarily involves his unit shooting.

If my Tactical Squad fires a lascannon, the Tactical Squad has fired.

DeathReaper is right and it’s clarified under Rare Rules, “Shoots Again”

“When a unit shoots again, any models in that unit that have already shot with any of the weapons they are equipped with earlier in that phase can shoot with those weapons one additional time. When a model shoots again, that model can shoot with any weapons it is equipped with that it has already shot with earlier in that phase one additional time. When a model can shoot with a specific weapon again, that model can shoot with it one additional time if it has already shot with it earlier in that phase.“

There are three categories: A unit shoots twice, a model shoots twice, and a weapon shoots twice.

Bragg’s rule specifies that model shoots twice. The Rare Rules elaborate that this is NOT the unit shooting twice. The recursive nature fails after Bragg’s second grenade (or AC shot).

I don't see in that quote how a single model shooting doesn't count as the unit shooting?

For the unit to fire, each model in the unit would need to select a weapon, a target, etc or do nothing.

Rare Rules, Shoots Again specifies that no, actually, the unit is not selected to shoot again. Just Bragg. The other five models are not “selected” and being forced to do nothing, they’re not being activated in any way.

Bragg falls under the second “Shoots Again” category, a model(s) being selected to shoot again.

But Bragg is part of his unit. Anything that includes Bragg necessarily includes his unit.

That's like saying I don't live in England, I only live in Bristol. Clearly I don't live in the entirety of England, but I do live in a part of it.

You aren’t selecting the unit and choosing not to fire with each model that doesn’t have the shoots again rule. This is the scenario where the unit is shooting and is required for the recursive function.

You are selecting the model Bragg both because his rule says “this model” and because the Rare Rules explicitly and in no uncertain terms differentiate between a unit shooting, a model shooting, and a weapon shooting more than once a phase.

He is a part of his unit but his unit is not resolving attacks a second time. That model is resolving attacks a second time and it’s specified in two different places that this is the case.

There is nothing in that rule that says that shooting again cannot produce further shoots again effects.

So.

- Bragg shoots and misses. Triggers shoot again
- Can shoot one additional time.
- Brag shoots and misses. Triggers shoot again.
- Can shoot one additional time.

'One additional' is not the same thing as 'only one additional'

Which absolutely matches RAI. The issue is that the trigger has a loophole that makes it not RAI.

You are ignoring most of the rules here.

The sequence is:

Ghosts fire -> Bragg misses -> Bragg fires again because the unit has resolved attacks.

The second time Bragg fires the sequence is

Rare Rules Shoots Again (RRSA)/Bragg's Rule select Bragg to fire as a model, not as a unit -> Bragg misses -> Bragg cannot fire again as the unit has not resolved attacks, RRSA has had a model resolve attacks.

When you select a unit to shoot with, you select targets and resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with.

If any attacks ware resolved by models inside that unit, that unit has resolved attacks.

dammit wrote:

When you select a unit to shoot with, you select targets and resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with.

If any attacks ware resolved by models inside that unit, that unit has resolved attacks.

IF you select that unit to shoot with.

Both Bragg and the Rare Rules select a model to shoot with at the top of the shooting sequence. You are never picking that unit to shoot again with.

There is no mechanic to select a model to shoot with, only a unit.

dammit wrote:
There is no mechanic to select a model to shoot with, only a unit.

As per RRSA, that is not true.

There is a difference between a model in a unit resolving attacks and a unit resolving attacks. You might not like that there’s a difference but that difference is explicitly laid out in RRSA. A unit can shoot again OR a model can shoot again OR a weapon can shoot again.

Bragg doesn’t put the unit at the top of the shooting sequence while resolving attacks, only himself.

Apart from braggs rule, which is what the rare rules section references.

I don't know why you keep referring to that rare rule; all it actually does is define that 'unit shoots' = all/any model with all/any eligable guns, 'model shoots' = one model with all/any eligable guns. It doesn't create any mechanisms, unique or otherwise.

But because you are hanging on to that rule, i'm engaging you on your terms. That rare rules makes no mention of a model being selected to shoot. Step one of shooting is selecting a unit, not a model. So is your argument that the model never shoots again, because a unit can't be selected to shoot twice, at all. Does this ability actually do nothing?

I think you're again confusing posters. Don't.
That model shoots. Not the unit.

It is only confusing because your argument is broken.

There is no mechanism in the game that involves a model shooting without the unit it is in having been (explicitly or implicitly) selected to shoot, and therefore resolving its attacks.

dammit wrote:
I don't know why you keep referring to that rare rule; all it actually does is define that 'unit shoots' = all/any model with all/any eligable guns, 'model shoots' = one model with all/any eligable guns. It doesn't create any mechanisms, unique or otherwise.

But because you are hanging on to that rule, i'm engaging you on your terms. That rare rules makes no mention of a model being selected to shoot. Step one of shooting is selecting a unit, not a model. So is your argument that the model never shoots again, because a unit can't be selected to shoot twice, at all. Does this ability actually do nothing?

I don’t think you’re worth engaging with on this if you want to twist the RAW into “either I’m right or it never shoots twice”.

They've shown that in a couple of threads now m

I just looked at the rules, as they are written, and applied them.

I only did that because you said that the rules, as written, provided the following mechanics.

- A model can be selected to shoot without the unit being selected.
- A model resolving it's attacks does not count as resolving attacks for the unit it is in.

Neither are anywhere in the book. You added that yourself, and that causes the problem. All you have to do to resolve it is accept that a model in a unit resolving its attacks is implicitly also the unit that contains it resolving its attacks. The contradiction goes away, but your argument doesn't hold anymore.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Bragg is clearly part of his unit, as such Bragg shoot necessarily involves his unit shooting.

If my Tactical Squad fires a lascannon, the Tactical Squad has fired.

And for the first time that unit fires, that is true.

If a rule in that unit let that particular model shoot again, and not any others, you do not get to shoot with the entire unit again, just that particular model.

dammit wrote:
There is nothing in that rule that says that shooting again cannot produce further shoots again effects.

So.

- Bragg shoots and misses. Triggers shoot again
- Can shoot one additional time.
- Brag shoots and misses. Triggers shoot again.
- Can shoot one additional time.

'One additional' is not the same thing as 'only one additional'

Which absolutely matches RAI. The issue is that the trigger has a loophole that makes it not RAI.

One additional does not mean two additional...

dammit wrote:

When you select a unit to shoot with, you select targets and resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with.

If any attacks ware resolved by models inside that unit, that unit has resolved attacks.

Did you gloss over "When you select a unit to shoot with..."?

Because that is important in this case.

We are not selecting a unit, so that point you made is meaningless in this case.

You only select the unit once, then what you said ("If any attacks ware resolved by models inside that unit, that unit has resolved attacks.") is true.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Bragg is clearly part of his unit, as such Bragg shoot necessarily involves his unit shooting.

If my Tactical Squad fires a lascannon, the Tactical Squad has fired.

And for the first time that unit fires, that is true.

If a rule in that unit let that particular model shoot again, and not any others, you do not get to shoot with the entire unit again, just that particular model.

dammit wrote:
There is nothing in that rule that says that shooting again cannot produce further shoots again effects.

So.

- Bragg shoots and misses. Triggers shoot again
- Can shoot one additional time.
- Brag shoots and misses. Triggers shoot again.
- Can shoot one additional time.

'One additional' is not the same thing as 'only one additional'

Which absolutely matches RAI. The issue is that the trigger has a loophole that makes it not RAI.

One additional does not mean two additional...

dammit wrote:

When you select a unit to shoot with, you select targets and resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with.

If any attacks ware resolved by models inside that unit, that unit has resolved attacks.

Did you gloss over "When you select a unit to shoot with..."?

Because that is important in this case.

We are not selecting a unit, so that point you made is meaningless in this case.

You only select the unit once, then what you said ("If any attacks ware resolved by models inside that unit, that unit has resolved attacks.") is true.

While I am not condoning the Frag-spam; in relation to Bragg shooting until he hits: this is the case, and you are admittining it here.

First point: Yes this is true; but that unit has resolved shots for a second time by virtue of the model with the lascannon firing a second time, you agree with this in the third point.

Second Point: "One additional"(in this discussion) is contingent on the "Each time"(I am assuming here that the "One Additional" is from the rare rules shoot again, page 361 of the BRB.); The second "One Additional" that dammit is referring to(and you are referring to as "two additional") is for the second instance of the Shoot again rare rule, triggered by any additional instances of Bragg not hitting with the AC.
Sequence of events goes:
1) Gaunts Ghosts unit is selected to fire
2) Targets are selected
3) Resolve the attacks
4) Check to see if Bragg has hit with his AC
5) if Bragg has not hit with his AC then the Gaunts Ghosts unit is preselected with just Bragg Shooting again(The rare rule Shoot Again allows for selecting targets, itself requiring the "unit" to shoot; so satisfying the "Each time this unit has resolved its attacks" portion of the trigger condition), until Bragg hits with his AC or he/his unit is no longer eligible to make shooting attacks(in this case only if there are no enemy units within range or LOS of any of Bragg's ranged weapons).

Third point: Hey look, you got it; and admit it. You select the unit once, Braggs rule forces him to fire a second time; meaning that for a second time his unit has resolved its attacks, meaning you check to see if Bragg hit with his AC for a second time potentially leading to a third set of attacks (or a second Shoot Again), continue ad nauseum until a hit is scored with the AC or there are no enemy units within Range and LOS of Braggs AC(playing as clearly intended will only be the first option).

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

5) if Bragg has not hit with his AC then the Gaunts Ghosts unit is preselected with just Bragg Shooting again(The rare rule Shoot Again allows for selecting targets, itself requiring the "unit" to shoot; so satisfying the "Each time this unit has resolved its attacks" portion of the trigger condition), until Bragg hits with his AC or he/his unit is no longer eligible to make shooting attacks(in this case only if there are no enemy units within range or LOS of any of Bragg's ranged weapons).

RRSA allows for units to shoot again. It also specifies that shoots again rules will sometimes affect only models or weapons on models.

The unit is not selected via Bragg as Bragg's rule specifies model and RRSA lays out that this doesn't auto-magically mean unit, because unit is a different case.

RRSA puts Bragg at the top of the shooting sequence, which means that the unit has not made attacks, a model has. RRSA is clear about there being a difference between a model shooting again while part of a unit and a unit shooting again.

 DoomMouse wrote:
So Trooper Bragg from the gaunts ghosts can immediately shoot again every time 'this unit unit resolves its attacks' according to his 'Try Again' special rule, provided he has not landed any hits with his autocannon. He's also armed with a frag grenade, so if he shoots with that, he'll definitely get no hits with the autocannon.

Does that mean he gets to fire the grenade ONCE more, or does he keep on firing with the grenade infinitely and trigger the rule repeatedly?

Obviously the sensible answer would be once more, but I'm interested if it could be a silly infinite damage exploit rules-as-written.

The full text is 'In the Shooting Phase, each time this unit has resolved its attacks, if no hits were scored by Bragg's autocannon, this model can immediately shoot again.'

The way I see it is if you don’t roll any dice for the auto cannon. He wouldn’t be able to shoot again because you can’t miss if no dice has been rolled for the weapon in the shooting phase.

Except it’s not “If all auto cannon shots missed” it’s “If no hits were scored with the auto cannon.”

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


Third point: Hey look, you got it; and admit it. You select the unit once, Braggs rule forces him to fire a second time; meaning that for a second time his unit has resolved its attacks...

That is not what that means at all. I do not understand how you think it means "for a second time his unit has resolved its attacks"

It actually means that Bragg has resolved his attack for a second time, his unit has not. As the unit does not have permission to fire more than once.

If you think the unit can fire more than once, I will need to see a citation.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
the Gaunts Ghosts unit is preselected with just Bragg Shooting again

Basically this needs a citation to back up your claim. There is nothing in the rules that backs your statement up.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


Third point: Hey look, you got it; and admit it. You select the unit once, Braggs rule forces him to fire a second time; meaning that for a second time his unit has resolved its attacks...

That is not what that means at all. I do not understand how you think it means "for a second time his unit has resolved its attacks"

It actually means that Bragg has resolved his attack for a second time, his unit has not. As the unit does not have permission to fire more than once.

If you think the unit can fire more than once, I will need to see a citation.

you said it yourself:

 DeathReaper wrote:


You only select the unit once, then what you said ("If any attacks ware resolved by models inside that unit, that unit has resolved attacks.") is true.

By Bragg resolving the shoot again, the unit has resolved a shooting attack by definition. You are going to have to cite where in the rules a single model is allowed to resolve attacks without the unit having resolved attacks.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
the Gaunts Ghosts unit is preselected with just Bragg Shooting again

Basically this needs a citation to back up your claim. There is nothing in the rules that backs your statement up.

Are you proposing that no models/units/weapons can ever make use of the Shoot Again rules/rare rules? You need "The unit" to be shooting for selecting targets. You have no permission to resolve attacks from a weapon without the unit selected to shoot. Both are on page 216 of the BRB.
First is the very first sentence of Select Targets: "When a unit shoots, you must select the target unit(s) for all of the ranged weapons its models are making attacks with before any attacks are resolved."
Second is the second paragraph of SHOOTING PHASE: "When you select a unit to shoot with, you select targets and resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with (each ranged weapon can only be shot once per phase). The ranged weapons that models in a unit are equipped with are detailed on its datasheet."

Shoot Again:

When a unit shoots again, any models in that unit that have already shot with any of the weapons they are equipped with earlier in that phase can shoot with those weapons one additional time. When a model shoots again, that model can shoot with any weapons it is equipped with that it has already shot with earlier in that phase one additional time. When a model can shoot with a specific weapon again, that model can shoot with it one additional time if it has already shot with it earlier in that phase.

If a rule allows a unit, model or weapon to shoot again, then it must completely resolve its first shooting attack before resolving the second. This can be at a different target. If a rule is used to make a unit shoot again at the end of the Shooting phase, the phase does not end until after all these rules have been resolved.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
By Bragg resolving the shoot again, the unit has resolved a shooting attack by definition.

As I said When you select the unit to shoot (for the first time), this is true.

But with Bragg's rule, you do not select the unit, and the unit can not shoot again, as there are no rules letting the unit resolve attacks again.

Bragg has a rule that lets that model shoot again, but the unit has not resolved attacks as there is no permission for them to do so.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You are going to have to cite where in the rules a single model is allowed to resolve attacks without the unit having resolved attacks.

That is not how it works...

The rules system is permissive, you have to show that a single model being given permission to attack a second time, means the unit has resolved attacks.

But there is no citation.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Are you proposing that no models/units/weapons can ever make use of the Shoot Again rules/rare rules?

I never said or eluded to that, why do you think I did?

The unit still has resolved attacks, because a model (in this case Bragg) is a part of that unit.

Of course, no other models in that unit have permission to resolve attacks, it's only Bragg. But once again, Bragg is part of the unit.

I don't think the permissiveness of the ruleset really comes into this. How shooting attacks is resolved is right there - you select the unit and resolve attacks with models in that unit.
Nowhere does the "shoot twice" part contradict that resolution, all it does is specify the limits on what models can be selected.

If my unit has a special such as allowing it to reroll 1s to hit, does that apply in shooting? By your logic Bragg wouldn't get to use it because he's just a model.

This thread has stretched, unravelled and snapped. It was torturous from the outset. We done misconstruing stuff just to have an argument yet? Just because Reddit thinks this rule means infinite grenades doesn’t mean it’s true. Common flippin sense, people. It is required.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I don't think the permissiveness of the ruleset really comes into this.

And that is why your argument fails.

Good point, well presented.
-_-

I think there is a faq already out for it.

But raw he could throw infinite grenades.

Check eligibility for a unit to shoot.

When trooper Bragg is shooting again the unit is selected to shoot again but only Bragg is eligible to shoot. Rinse, repeat.

Again infinite grenades sounds fun until.your opponents say dope, roll it out for me.

If my opponent has the Gaunts Ghosts in his army, I'm playing on a chess clock. I'll happily let him run out of time rolling out all those grenade shots.

Is there any value in just writing GW on this?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Is there any value in just writing GW on this?

There's almost always value in writing GW. Even if they don't FAQ it it puts it on their radar.

dreadlybrew wrote:
I think there is a faq already out for it.

But raw he could throw infinite grenades.

Check eligibility for a unit to shoot.

When trooper Bragg is shooting again the unit is selected to shoot again but only Bragg is eligible to shoot. Rinse, repeat.

Again infinite grenades sounds fun until.your opponents say dope, roll it out for me.

This is false. The unit IS NOT selected to shoot again, as shown earlier. This is because bragg's unit does not have permission to fire twice, only bragg does.

RAW he can not throw infinite grenades.

 DeathReaper wrote:

dreadlybrew wrote:
I think there is a faq already out for it.

But raw he could throw infinite grenades.

Check eligibility for a unit to shoot.

When trooper Bragg is shooting again the unit is selected to shoot again but only Bragg is eligible to shoot. Rinse, repeat.

Again infinite grenades sounds fun until.your opponents say dope, roll it out for me.

This is false. The unit IS NOT selected to shoot again, as shown earlier. This is because bragg's unit does not have permission to fire twice, only bragg does.

RAW he can not throw infinite grenades.

You are right. He cannot throw infinite grenades. Only until everything within 6" is killed.

We've been round in circles on this, there is zero value in restating the same arguments that have been repeated for three pages already.

The crux of the matter is everyone knows how it's meant to be played and we can leave it at that.

As an aside, can I just point out a huge problem with the infinite grenade in the general game.

Braggs rules allow him to shoot again should he faIl to land any hits with the AC. Using the grenade would obviously mean that he failed to land any hits. So the player invokes the right to shoot again. So we look at RRSA. And Bragg gets to shoot again. However, the RRSA restricts his choice of weapons only to those used earlier. So he can only throw another grenade, he can't choose the AC to get out of the loop.

In other words the game stops and can't continue. The rule has been invoked, can it be revoked?

Andrew

“Shoot again with a specific weapon” is the third category of RRSA.

Bragg is the second (model shoots again), there are no built in restrictions afaik elsewhere.

Reddit and a couple people here think its the first (unit shoots again) but somehow limited to just Bragg.

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
“Shoot again with a specific weapon” is the third category of RRSA.

Bragg is the second (model shoots again), there are no built in restrictions afaik elsewhere.

Reddit and a couple people here think its the first (unit shoots again) but somehow limited to just Bragg.

I'm looking at that second category that I think your referring to;

"When a model shoots again, that model can shoot with any weapons it is equipped with that it has already shot with earlier in that phase one additional time"

So yes, I believe there are restrictions against Bragg, its in italics above. As Bragg has not shot the AC he cant then pick the AC as a 'shoot again' weapon. He must stay with the grenade. However he has invoked a rule to shoot again until such time he obtains an AC hit. Which he cant do. Infinite loop.

Technically not an infinite loop since you can choose to not make another attack at instance and you will eventually run out of targets, preventing you from attacking again.

That being said, anyone who thinks this rule intends to allow him unlimited grenade attacks is arguing rules over game.

Yes, which is why I asked if you revoke a rule already invoked (if that makes sense). The decisio to shoot again is decided by invoking the rule. That choice has been made, that player has already decided to shoot. And they need to play it out until an AC hit is obtained.

Assuming you can fire again each team Bragg fires and doesn't hit with the Autocannon, you invoke the rule each time Bragg fires and does not hit with he Autocannon. So it goes.:

Roll to Hit. No AC Hits. Shall I fire again? Yes.
Roll to Hit. No AC Hits. Shall I fire again? Yes.
Roll to Hit. No AC Hits. Shall I fire again? Yes.
Roll to Hit. No AC Hits. Shall I fire again? Yes.
Roll to Hit. No AC Hits. Shall I fire again? No. I have better things to do then continue this.
Move on to next action.

 alextroy wrote:
Assuming you can fire again each team Bragg fires and doesn't hit with the Autocannon, you invoke the rule each time Bragg fires and does not hit with he Autocannon. So it goes.:

Roll to Hit. No AC Hits. Shall I fire again? Yes.
Roll to Hit. No AC Hits. Shall I fire again? Yes.
Roll to Hit. No AC Hits. Shall I fire again? Yes.
Roll to Hit. No AC Hits. Shall I fire again? Yes.
Roll to Hit. No AC Hits. Shall I fire again? No. I have better things to do then continue this.
Move on to next action.

And every time you do this you ignore RRSA telling you that the model shoots, not the unit.

Bragg shoots twice max, with any weapon.

 p5freak wrote:


You are right. He cannot throw infinite grenades. Only until everything within 6" is killed.

And again, your argument fails.

Bragg's rules say "Each time this unit has resolved its attacks... This model can immediately shoot again"

Trooper Bragg being able to "immediately shoot again" is not resolving attacks for that unit, just for that single model. There is no permission for the unit to resolve its attacks a second time. Therefore, the "Each time this unit has resolved its attacks" clause in braggs rule never hs its conditions met after the first time the unit is selected to shoot.

You have not acknowledged that his unit can not shoot twice, so bragg can only throw two grenades at most. no infinite (Or more than two) attacks with grenades for trooper "Try again".

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:


You are right. He cannot throw infinite grenades. Only until everything within 6" is killed.

And again, your argument fails.

Bragg's rules say "Each time this unit has resolved its attacks... This model can immediately shoot again"

Trooper Bragg being able to "immediately shoot again" is not resolving attacks for that unit, just for that single model. There is no permission for the unit to resolve its attacks a second time. Therefore, the "Each time this unit has resolved its attacks" clause in braggs rule never hs its conditions met after the first time the unit is selected to shoot.

You have not acknowledged that his unit can not shoot twice, so bragg can only throw two grenades at most. no infinite (Or more than two) attacks with grenades for trooper "Try again".

And again, your argument fails. The unit doesnt need permission to shoot again, only bragg does. Its fine if only one model from a unit shoots. After that model has shot, the unit has resolved its attacks.

It is plain as day to see the intention was for Braag to continue shooting until he gets two hits with his autocannon, to give him some fluffy rules that are both lore friendly and crunchy that the BS5+ means he would hit something every turn.

Trying to argue it applies to any other weapon he carries is absolute cobblers. Is the rule badly written? Yes. Is the intent clear? Also yes. Trying to RAW it is really bad sportsmanship in my eyes.

No one knows RAI, except GW. If they wanted to give bragg an auto hit ability, they could have written the rule that bragg auto hits with his AC, but they didnt. Whats gakky is, is GW constantly failing at writing decent rules.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:


You are right. He cannot throw infinite grenades. Only until everything within 6" is killed.

And again, your argument fails.

Bragg's rules say "Each time this unit has resolved its attacks... This model can immediately shoot again"

Trooper Bragg being able to "immediately shoot again" is not resolving attacks for that unit, just for that single model. There is no permission for the unit to resolve its attacks a second time. Therefore, the "Each time this unit has resolved its attacks" clause in braggs rule never hs its conditions met after the first time the unit is selected to shoot.

You have not acknowledged that his unit can not shoot twice, so bragg can only throw two grenades at most. no infinite (Or more than two) attacks with grenades for trooper "Try again".

And again, your argument fails. The unit doesnt need permission to shoot again, only bragg does. Its fine if only one model from a unit shoots. After that model has shot, the unit has resolved its attacks.

No, my argument follows the rules. The unit needs permission to fire again, because Braggs rule says "Each time this unit has resolved its attacks" If you are not selecting braggs unit then they can not ever resolve their attacks.

Basically you claim this:

After that model has shot, the unit has resolved its attacks.

But you have not proven it.

The shooting rules are clear that a unit can only be selected to shoot (and roll to hit and resolve their attacks etc...) once.

You will not find anything that says otherwise, so your argument falls apart.

I will not repeat what i already said multiple times. RAW works, you are wrong.

 p5freak wrote:
I will not repeat what i already said multiple times. RAW works, you are wrong.

The actual (and incredibly clear) RAW is as follows:

Bragg needs the unit to shoot to shoot again.

RRSA dictates that Bragg shooting as a model is different than the unit shooting.

Nothing in the Bragg rule tags the unit to the top of the shooting phase.

Bragg only fires twice with any weapon.

 Dr. Mills wrote:
It is plain as day to see the intention was for Braag to continue shooting until he gets two hits with his autocannon, to give him some fluffy rules that are both lore friendly and crunchy that the BS5+ means he would hit something every turn.

Trying to argue it applies to any other weapon he carries is absolute cobblers. Is the rule badly written? Yes. Is the intent clear? Also yes. Trying to RAW it is really bad sportsmanship in my eyes.

I have to totally disagree with your interpretation of clear intent. At best, it is intended to make sure he gets 1 Hit with his Autocannon since he can shoot again if no hits were made with his AC.

However, I think the clear intent is that if he misses with his AC the first time, he is allowed a second try (aka Try Again). Nothing more than that. No attacking with the AC if he misses with his grenade. No unlimited attacks with a grenade. No roll two dice until one of them hits.

 p5freak wrote:
I will not repeat what i already said multiple times. RAW works, you are wrong.

We won't repeat either # you are, again, incorrect on raw.

Jesus, people are still arguing about this?

 p5freak wrote:
I will not repeat what i already said multiple times. RAW works, you are wrong.

You have multiple people explaining why your argument fails, why are you ignoring the rules?

 Valkyrie wrote:
Jesus, people are still arguing about this?

I have literally seen people here argue 20 pages on whether a destroyed model gets a second attack, AFTER it was destroyed.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Jesus, people are still arguing about this?

We weren't arguing about this until somebody brought it back up again.

The people arguing for infinite grenade throws are the same people that put their finger right in your face for 12 hours and say "i'm not touching you". You know exactly what you're doing.

From the 'Tenets of You Make Da Call':

5. Stick to discussing the rules, not the poster. Phrases like "Rules Lawyer", "Cheater" and "TFG" have no place in rules discussions. Don't depart from rules discussions by attaching value judgments to different interpretations.

And we're done here.