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Made in us
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle




dammit wrote:
I don't know why you keep referring to that rare rule; all it actually does is define that 'unit shoots' = all/any model with all/any eligable guns, 'model shoots' = one model with all/any eligable guns. It doesn't create any mechanisms, unique or otherwise.

But because you are hanging on to that rule, i'm engaging you on your terms. That rare rules makes no mention of a model being selected to shoot. Step one of shooting is selecting a unit, not a model. So is your argument that the model never shoots again, because a unit can't be selected to shoot twice, at all. Does this ability actually do nothing?


I don’t think you’re worth engaging with on this if you want to twist the RAW into “either I’m right or it never shoots twice”.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




They've shown that in a couple of threads now m
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




I just looked at the rules, as they are written, and applied them.

I only did that because you said that the rules, as written, provided the following mechanics.

- A model can be selected to shoot without the unit being selected.
- A model resolving it's attacks does not count as resolving attacks for the unit it is in.

Neither are anywhere in the book. You added that yourself, and that causes the problem. All you have to do to resolve it is accept that a model in a unit resolving its attacks is implicitly also the unit that contains it resolving its attacks. The contradiction goes away, but your argument doesn't hold anymore.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/22 17:35:40


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Bragg is clearly part of his unit, as such Bragg shoot necessarily involves his unit shooting.

If my Tactical Squad fires a lascannon, the Tactical Squad has fired.
And for the first time that unit fires, that is true.

If a rule in that unit let that particular model shoot again, and not any others, you do not get to shoot with the entire unit again, just that particular model.

dammit wrote:
There is nothing in that rule that says that shooting again cannot produce further shoots again effects.

So.

- Bragg shoots and misses. Triggers shoot again
- Can shoot one additional time.
- Brag shoots and misses. Triggers shoot again.
- Can shoot one additional time.

'One additional' is not the same thing as 'only one additional'

Which absolutely matches RAI. The issue is that the trigger has a loophole that makes it not RAI.

One additional does not mean two additional...

dammit wrote:
When you select a unit to shoot with, you select targets and resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with.


If any attacks ware resolved by models inside that unit, that unit has resolved attacks.
Did you gloss over "When you select a unit to shoot with..."?

Because that is important in this case.

We are not selecting a unit, so that point you made is meaningless in this case.

You only select the unit once, then what you said ("If any attacks ware resolved by models inside that unit, that unit has resolved attacks.") is true.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/22 19:26:11


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






 DeathReaper wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Bragg is clearly part of his unit, as such Bragg shoot necessarily involves his unit shooting.

If my Tactical Squad fires a lascannon, the Tactical Squad has fired.
And for the first time that unit fires, that is true.

If a rule in that unit let that particular model shoot again, and not any others, you do not get to shoot with the entire unit again, just that particular model.

dammit wrote:
There is nothing in that rule that says that shooting again cannot produce further shoots again effects.

So.

- Bragg shoots and misses. Triggers shoot again
- Can shoot one additional time.
- Brag shoots and misses. Triggers shoot again.
- Can shoot one additional time.

'One additional' is not the same thing as 'only one additional'

Which absolutely matches RAI. The issue is that the trigger has a loophole that makes it not RAI.

One additional does not mean two additional...

dammit wrote:
When you select a unit to shoot with, you select targets and resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with.


If any attacks ware resolved by models inside that unit, that unit has resolved attacks.
Did you gloss over "When you select a unit to shoot with..."?

Because that is important in this case.

We are not selecting a unit, so that point you made is meaningless in this case.

You only select the unit once, then what you said ("If any attacks ware resolved by models inside that unit, that unit has resolved attacks.") is true.


While I am not condoning the Frag-spam; in relation to Bragg shooting until he hits: this is the case, and you are admittining it here.

First point: Yes this is true; but that unit has resolved shots for a second time by virtue of the model with the lascannon firing a second time, you agree with this in the third point.

Second Point: "One additional"(in this discussion) is contingent on the "Each time"(I am assuming here that the "One Additional" is from the rare rules shoot again, page 361 of the BRB.); The second "One Additional" that dammit is referring to(and you are referring to as "two additional") is for the second instance of the Shoot again rare rule, triggered by any additional instances of Bragg not hitting with the AC.
Sequence of events goes:
1) Gaunts Ghosts unit is selected to fire
2) Targets are selected
3) Resolve the attacks
4) Check to see if Bragg has hit with his AC
5) if Bragg has not hit with his AC then the Gaunts Ghosts unit is preselected with just Bragg Shooting again(The rare rule Shoot Again allows for selecting targets, itself requiring the "unit" to shoot; so satisfying the "Each time this unit has resolved its attacks" portion of the trigger condition), until Bragg hits with his AC or he/his unit is no longer eligible to make shooting attacks(in this case only if there are no enemy units within range or LOS of any of Bragg's ranged weapons).

Third point: Hey look, you got it; and admit it. You select the unit once, Braggs rule forces him to fire a second time; meaning that for a second time his unit has resolved its attacks, meaning you check to see if Bragg hit with his AC for a second time potentially leading to a third set of attacks (or a second Shoot Again), continue ad nauseum until a hit is scored with the AC or there are no enemy units within Range and LOS of Braggs AC(playing as clearly intended will only be the first option).


This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in us
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle




 Kommissar Kel wrote:

5) if Bragg has not hit with his AC then the Gaunts Ghosts unit is preselected with just Bragg Shooting again(The rare rule Shoot Again allows for selecting targets, itself requiring the "unit" to shoot; so satisfying the "Each time this unit has resolved its attacks" portion of the trigger condition), until Bragg hits with his AC or he/his unit is no longer eligible to make shooting attacks(in this case only if there are no enemy units within range or LOS of any of Bragg's ranged weapons).



RRSA allows for units to shoot again. It also specifies that shoots again rules will sometimes affect only models or weapons on models.

The unit is not selected via Bragg as Bragg's rule specifies model and RRSA lays out that this doesn't auto-magically mean unit, because unit is a different case.

RRSA puts Bragg at the top of the shooting sequence, which means that the unit has not made attacks, a model has. RRSA is clear about there being a difference between a model shooting again while part of a unit and a unit shooting again.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User



near miamisburg ohio

 DoomMouse wrote:
So Trooper Bragg from the gaunts ghosts can immediately shoot again every time 'this unit unit resolves its attacks' according to his 'Try Again' special rule, provided he has not landed any hits with his autocannon. He's also armed with a frag grenade, so if he shoots with that, he'll definitely get no hits with the autocannon.

Does that mean he gets to fire the grenade ONCE more, or does he keep on firing with the grenade infinitely and trigger the rule repeatedly?

Obviously the sensible answer would be once more, but I'm interested if it could be a silly infinite damage exploit rules-as-written.

The full text is 'In the Shooting Phase, each time this unit has resolved its attacks, if no hits were scored by Bragg's autocannon, this model can immediately shoot again.'


The way I see it is if you don’t roll any dice for the auto cannon. He wouldn’t be able to shoot again because you can’t miss if no dice has been rolled for the weapon in the shooting phase.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Except it’s not “If all auto cannon shots missed” it’s “If no hits were scored with the auto cannon.”

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


Third point: Hey look, you got it; and admit it. You select the unit once, Braggs rule forces him to fire a second time; meaning that for a second time his unit has resolved its attacks...
That is not what that means at all. I do not understand how you think it means "for a second time his unit has resolved its attacks"

It actually means that Bragg has resolved his attack for a second time, his unit has not. As the unit does not have permission to fire more than once.

If you think the unit can fire more than once, I will need to see a citation.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
the Gaunts Ghosts unit is preselected with just Bragg Shooting again
Basically this needs a citation to back up your claim. There is nothing in the rules that backs your statement up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/23 03:27:06


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






 DeathReaper wrote:
 Kommissar Kel wrote:


Third point: Hey look, you got it; and admit it. You select the unit once, Braggs rule forces him to fire a second time; meaning that for a second time his unit has resolved its attacks...
That is not what that means at all. I do not understand how you think it means "for a second time his unit has resolved its attacks"

It actually means that Bragg has resolved his attack for a second time, his unit has not. As the unit does not have permission to fire more than once.

If you think the unit can fire more than once, I will need to see a citation.


you said it yourself:
 DeathReaper wrote:


You only select the unit once, then what you said ("If any attacks ware resolved by models inside that unit, that unit has resolved attacks.") is true.


By Bragg resolving the shoot again, the unit has resolved a shooting attack by definition. You are going to have to cite where in the rules a single model is allowed to resolve attacks without the unit having resolved attacks.

 DeathReaper wrote:
 Kommissar Kel wrote:
the Gaunts Ghosts unit is preselected with just Bragg Shooting again
Basically this needs a citation to back up your claim. There is nothing in the rules that backs your statement up.


Are you proposing that no models/units/weapons can ever make use of the Shoot Again rules/rare rules? You need "The unit" to be shooting for selecting targets. You have no permission to resolve attacks from a weapon without the unit selected to shoot. Both are on page 216 of the BRB.
First is the very first sentence of Select Targets: "When a unit shoots, you must select the target unit(s) for all of the ranged weapons its models are making attacks with before any attacks are resolved."
Second is the second paragraph of SHOOTING PHASE: "When you select a unit to shoot with, you select targets and resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with (each ranged weapon can only be shot once per phase). The ranged weapons that models in a unit are equipped with are detailed on its datasheet."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/25 01:22:34


This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Shoot Again:

When a unit shoots again, any models in that unit that have already shot with any of the weapons they are equipped with earlier in that phase can shoot with those weapons one additional time. When a model shoots again, that model can shoot with any weapons it is equipped with that it has already shot with earlier in that phase one additional time. When a model can shoot with a specific weapon again, that model can shoot with it one additional time if it has already shot with it earlier in that phase.

If a rule allows a unit, model or weapon to shoot again, then it must completely resolve its first shooting attack before resolving the second. This can be at a different target. If a rule is used to make a unit shoot again at the end of the Shooting phase, the phase does not end until after all these rules have been resolved.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/25 04:05:41


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
By Bragg resolving the shoot again, the unit has resolved a shooting attack by definition.
As I said When you select the unit to shoot (for the first time), this is true.

But with Bragg's rule, you do not select the unit, and the unit can not shoot again, as there are no rules letting the unit resolve attacks again.

Bragg has a rule that lets that model shoot again, but the unit has not resolved attacks as there is no permission for them to do so.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You are going to have to cite where in the rules a single model is allowed to resolve attacks without the unit having resolved attacks.
That is not how it works...

The rules system is permissive, you have to show that a single model being given permission to attack a second time, means the unit has resolved attacks.

But there is no citation.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Are you proposing that no models/units/weapons can ever make use of the Shoot Again rules/rare rules?
I never said or eluded to that, why do you think I did?


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

The unit still has resolved attacks, because a model (in this case Bragg) is a part of that unit.

Of course, no other models in that unit have permission to resolve attacks, it's only Bragg. But once again, Bragg is part of the unit.

I don't think the permissiveness of the ruleset really comes into this. How shooting attacks is resolved is right there - you select the unit and resolve attacks with models in that unit.
Nowhere does the "shoot twice" part contradict that resolution, all it does is specify the limits on what models can be selected.

If my unit has a special such as allowing it to reroll 1s to hit, does that apply in shooting? By your logic Bragg wouldn't get to use it because he's just a model.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

This thread has stretched, unravelled and snapped. It was torturous from the outset. We done misconstruing stuff just to have an argument yet? Just because Reddit thinks this rule means infinite grenades doesn’t mean it’s true. Common flippin sense, people. It is required.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I don't think the permissiveness of the ruleset really comes into this.
And that is why your argument fails.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Good point, well presented.
-_-
   
Made in us
Raging Ravener





I think there is a faq already out for it.

But raw he could throw infinite grenades.

Check eligibility for a unit to shoot.

When trooper Bragg is shooting again the unit is selected to shoot again but only Bragg is eligible to shoot. Rinse, repeat.

Again infinite grenades sounds fun until.your opponents say dope, roll it out for me.
   
Made in ca
Excited Doom Diver






If my opponent has the Gaunts Ghosts in his army, I'm playing on a chess clock. I'll happily let him run out of time rolling out all those grenade shots.

Space Wolves 4k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Is there any value in just writing GW on this?
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Is there any value in just writing GW on this?


There's almost always value in writing GW. Even if they don't FAQ it it puts it on their radar.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

dreadlybrew wrote:
I think there is a faq already out for it.

But raw he could throw infinite grenades.

Check eligibility for a unit to shoot.

When trooper Bragg is shooting again the unit is selected to shoot again but only Bragg is eligible to shoot. Rinse, repeat.

Again infinite grenades sounds fun until.your opponents say dope, roll it out for me.
This is false. The unit IS NOT selected to shoot again, as shown earlier. This is because bragg's unit does not have permission to fire twice, only bragg does.

RAW he can not throw infinite grenades.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:
dreadlybrew wrote:
I think there is a faq already out for it.

But raw he could throw infinite grenades.

Check eligibility for a unit to shoot.

When trooper Bragg is shooting again the unit is selected to shoot again but only Bragg is eligible to shoot. Rinse, repeat.

Again infinite grenades sounds fun until.your opponents say dope, roll it out for me.
This is false. The unit IS NOT selected to shoot again, as shown earlier. This is because bragg's unit does not have permission to fire twice, only bragg does.

RAW he can not throw infinite grenades.


You are right. He cannot throw infinite grenades. Only until everything within 6" is killed.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

We've been round in circles on this, there is zero value in restating the same arguments that have been repeated for three pages already.

The crux of the matter is everyone knows how it's meant to be played and we can leave it at that.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun

As an aside, can I just point out a huge problem with the infinite grenade in the general game.

Braggs rules allow him to shoot again should he faIl to land any hits with the AC. Using the grenade would obviously mean that he failed to land any hits. So the player invokes the right to shoot again. So we look at RRSA. And Bragg gets to shoot again. However, the RRSA restricts his choice of weapons only to those used earlier. So he can only throw another grenade, he can't choose the AC to get out of the loop.

In other words the game stops and can't continue. The rule has been invoked, can it be revoked?

Andrew

I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!

Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
 
   
Made in us
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“Shoot again with a specific weapon” is the third category of RRSA.

Bragg is the second (model shoots again), there are no built in restrictions afaik elsewhere.

Reddit and a couple people here think its the first (unit shoots again) but somehow limited to just Bragg.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
“Shoot again with a specific weapon” is the third category of RRSA.

Bragg is the second (model shoots again), there are no built in restrictions afaik elsewhere.

Reddit and a couple people here think its the first (unit shoots again) but somehow limited to just Bragg.


I'm looking at that second category that I think your referring to;

"When a model shoots again, that model can shoot with any weapons it is equipped with that it has already shot with earlier in that phase one additional time"

So yes, I believe there are restrictions against Bragg, its in italics above. As Bragg has not shot the AC he cant then pick the AC as a 'shoot again' weapon. He must stay with the grenade. However he has invoked a rule to shoot again until such time he obtains an AC hit. Which he cant do. Infinite loop.


I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!

Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

Technically not an infinite loop since you can choose to not make another attack at instance and you will eventually run out of targets, preventing you from attacking again.

That being said, anyone who thinks this rule intends to allow him unlimited grenade attacks is arguing rules over game.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun

Yes, which is why I asked if you revoke a rule already invoked (if that makes sense). The decisio to shoot again is decided by invoking the rule. That choice has been made, that player has already decided to shoot. And they need to play it out until an AC hit is obtained.

I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!

Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

Assuming you can fire again each team Bragg fires and doesn't hit with the Autocannon, you invoke the rule each time Bragg fires and does not hit with he Autocannon. So it goes.:

Roll to Hit. No AC Hits. Shall I fire again? Yes.
Roll to Hit. No AC Hits. Shall I fire again? Yes.
Roll to Hit. No AC Hits. Shall I fire again? Yes.
Roll to Hit. No AC Hits. Shall I fire again? Yes.
Roll to Hit. No AC Hits. Shall I fire again? No. I have better things to do then continue this.
Move on to next action.
   
Made in us
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle




 alextroy wrote:
Assuming you can fire again each team Bragg fires and doesn't hit with the Autocannon, you invoke the rule each time Bragg fires and does not hit with he Autocannon. So it goes.:

Roll to Hit. No AC Hits. Shall I fire again? Yes.
Roll to Hit. No AC Hits. Shall I fire again? Yes.
Roll to Hit. No AC Hits. Shall I fire again? Yes.
Roll to Hit. No AC Hits. Shall I fire again? Yes.
Roll to Hit. No AC Hits. Shall I fire again? No. I have better things to do then continue this.
Move on to next action.


And every time you do this you ignore RRSA telling you that the model shoots, not the unit.

Bragg shoots twice max, with any weapon.
   
 
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