I was thinking about starting a chaos knights army, but it’s £90 a knight. And they seem to average around 400points so that’s £450 for a 2000pt army.

Am I mad or is that way more than you would pay for any other 2000pt army. I think each of the armies in indomitus were about 1000pt and that was £110.

And I’m pretty sure the chaos start collecting box is about 1000pts for £55

Goonhammer recently posted an article on Mega-gargants that featured a sample army list of 4 of them. They're roughly $200 each, so that's $800usd tied up in 4 miniatures.

That is cheaper, comparing to an avarge army.
My dudes are an elite army.
And the army post new codex is going to look something like this 1 NDK GM, 1 brother captin, 1 Draigo. 4 units of strikes, 3 units of purfires, 2-3 regular NDKS. That is around 500$ with no paints, no books, no dice etc. A less elite army, which isn't marines, can cost a lot more.

It varies WILDLY from army to army, especially depending on your desired list. Some armies are just inherently cheaper.

My Tyranid Warrior 2K army would cost. . . Well over $1000 US. Maybe closer to 1500? I'm a little afraid to run the numbers.

Well you are correct in assessing that GW prices can be a bit steep. But realistically Knights are a relatively cheap army to collect, especially compared to horde armies or armies with horrendous $ to point ratio kits (Admech/some Ork kits).
For comparison, I'm more familiar with Euro pricing, but Knights give an almost 4 to 1 return on points compared to euros spend. Compare that to Mek guns which are almost 1 on 1, although those are an extreme example.
Generally speaking armies in a box like Indomitus or those with great rebuyable SC/Combat Patrols can be cheaper to collect than most. I was fortunate enough to start collecting DG when Dark Imperium was still around as well as a few amazing EtB kits. Nowadays that army would be quite a bit more expensive to collect.

Steep sure but I tend to spend 20-30 gbp at a time so don’t notice it or buy the value boxes. Thinking about spending £90 per unit really hits home the cost

That also assumes you can't find deals/ways to get it cheaper.

Depending on army compositions things can fluctuate a lot. Also how much you can get in discount boxes. Generally you can get around 3-4 points per $US. The basic SM combat patrol is $140 for about 615 points ( 4.39 $/point) and generally the get started type bundles are good savings. An intercessor box is around 3.3 $/P. This assumes full retail.

I’d ballpark a decent 2k list at about $500.

If a knight is really about 400 points, they are not good bang for your buck, as at $157 each, that would put them at 2.5 $/P, which is low.

You can pay about 400 for a 2k list of Custodes, I think that is still the gold standard for cheap armies.

the cost of armies varies considerably from army to army, GENERALLY speaking the more elite the army the cheaper as you need less stuff.

Marines tend to be cheaper as they get so many discount boxes, but barring those discount boxes they're no cheaper

Standard Sisters 2ks can range anywhere from 600 to 1500 dollars. The battle Sanctum is one of the worst points per dollar models in the game at 110$ for an 80pt model.

Don't buy it all at once.

Start with a small force, work up to a larger force over time, as you can afford it.

I'v built a 3+ company space marine army, plus half a Primaris company, starting with Rogue Trader.

And, as others have noted above, buy second-hand where you can. You can usually buy built + painted for less than the cost of a brand-new kit. Even getting a new, unbuilt kit at discount is a good deal.

mrFickle wrote:
Steep sure but I tend to spend 20-30 gbp at a time so don’t notice it or buy the value boxes. Thinking about spending £90 per unit really hits home the cost

They're about £70 a pop on Dark Sphere...

I find myself always that new army tends to cost ~400e more or less. Albeit this is with AOS. Haven't checked 40k army prices yet as haven't started any in a while.

But regardless of faction it always tends to be about same for AOS. Big differences are lumineth and mega gargants(which have added inconvenience that you can't do it in small bites. It's basically 100-150e per kit you need...similar to knights).

Rest unless I go for very weird list it's not much cheaper or expensive. Hard to get cheaper without 2nd hand, some lists with more unusual forces gets more expensive.

Armies with efficient start collecting boxes(you want ones with no characters(that can't be built non-character) that you can buy multiples of) or are involved in starter sets can be very cheap if you don't want super hard. More so with launch boxes(kruelboyz get the dominion, swap stormcast for 2nd half, congrats you have tad over 2000 pts for 155e plus rulebook).

Harlequins can get very silly When GW had the "post army list, win the army) I had 2500 pts or so and it capped the limit so over double what I usually pay for new army to start with and just 500 pts or so spares Bikes+transports added up to price fast. Not an army I'm going to start on my own in a hurry...

mrFickle wrote:
I was thinking about starting a chaos knights army, but it’s £90 a knight. And they seem to average around 400points so that’s £450 for a 2000pt army.

Am I mad or is that way more than you would pay for any other 2000pt army. I think each of the armies in indomitus were about 1000pt and that was £110.

And I’m pretty sure the chaos start collecting box is about 1000pts for £55

I make the start collecting out to be 580ish points, but it's a discount box with monopose minis in. The chaos marine unit in the box is a really bad load out in particular. Likewise indomitus was a never before seen level of discount in a special box.

Knights are probably one of the most reasonable armies for a lot of reasons, yes they're expensive per head but they need so few it works out better in the end.

Look at an army like tyranids, your basic gaunts are £20 for 60 points, so a unit of 30 at 180 points is £60 for 1 troops. That's on top of having to paint/store/move 30 guys for 1 unit.

A 3D resin printer is $200-$250 these days. Some STL files for big stompy robots (Some of which are free) and resin and it shouldn't go above $300, and then you can use that printer to enter more armies much cheaper.

And then use those armies for One Page Rules or miniatures-agnostic systems so 40K doesn't get as much engagement.

cheapest possible 40k army is Custodes with all Jetbikes
making it 270€ in original models, or 90€ if you use Mantic Enforcer Jetbikes

Doing all Knights with 3rd party models is 200-250€ vs the original 500-600€

an Astra Militarum army comes around 800-1000€ with GW models

a 2000 point 40k army, without core box or easy to build options costs ~500-1000€ depending on the faction outside the "budget" builds that may not be valid with a new Codex (or are not fun to play)

going with 3rd party models reduces the cost by 50% in most cases

 Mr. Grey wrote:
Goonhammer recently posted an article on Mega-gargants that featured a sample army list of 4 of them. They're roughly $200 each, so that's $800usd tied up in 4 miniatures.

or you take the same sized Kings of War or Conquest Gaints and get it for 200

 CEO Kasen wrote:
A 3D resin printer is $200-$250 these days. Some STL files for big stompy robots (Some of which are free) and resin and it shouldn't go above $300, and then you can use that printer to enter more armies much cheaper.

And then use those armies for One Page Rules or miniatures-agnostic systems so 40K doesn't get as much engagement.

A quick Amazon puts one at £250 here for me, which plus supplies etc you're looking at £300ish? Never mind the time learning how to use and maintain another piece of machinery and software which is a turn off for a lot of people. I feel sometimes "just buy a 3d printer" is banded about as a plug and play type thing which is wrong.

Likewise if you want to attend any GW events or WHW if in the UK, you'd need the legit items or damn near to.

Yeah, the cost is very high if you buy a traditional GW army now. I stick almost exclusively to discounted boxes only these days, no interest in paying the ridiculous amounts they charge for troop boxes.

Ultimately it's what's going to cause GW real issues as older players die off there won't be anyone to replace them.

The price of their mini's present a massive barrier to entry.

When I started you could buy models for £4 like terminators, characters were £7.

You could buy stuff for pocket money, now nothing's under £15.

 Stormonu wrote:
Don't buy it all at once.

Start with a small force, work up to a larger force over time, as you can afford it.

It depends. Here I can buy anything but direct material with a 25% price reduction but I have to pay shipping costs, so it makes sense to buy large lots in order to reduce those costs. In fact in the last decade I buy stuff every 2-3 years basically, always large lots though in order to pay shipping costs only a few times. Of course already having large collections allowed me to do that. For someone that starts I'd suggest getting 1000ish points of stuff all at once and be good with that for a couple of years.

However if you get stuff from the GW site or from a local shop it's a whole different matter as shipping costs are free and in that case buying smaller lots makes much more sense.

Dudeface wrote:

A quick Amazon puts one at £250 here for me, which plus supplies etc you're looking at £300ish? Never mind the time learning how to use and maintain another piece of machinery and software which is a turn off for a lot of people. I feel sometimes "just buy a 3d printer" is banded about as a plug and play type thing which is wrong.

Likewise if you want to attend any GW events or WHW if in the UK, you'd need the legit items or damn near to.

3D printing is only worth it compared to GW prices
40-30% of the original army price but months of additional work is worth it for some people who have the time

with the problem that you cannot go to GW events, but this is also the case for 3rd party bits so buying plastic somewhere else is still the better option

yet going into terrain or other games, the price is not the point any more but having additional models that you cannot get otherwise

DON'T BUY YOUR ARMY ALL AT ONCE!

The barrier of sticker shock is NOTHING to the barrier of Unpainted minis/wall of shame for dissuading players!

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
DON'T BUY YOUR ARMY ALL AT ONCE!

The barrier of sticker shock is NOTHING to the barrier of Unpainted minis/wall of shame for dissuading players!

I have models that I bought 20+ years ago still unpainted. I'm still here .

Painting several models all at once is also a much faster way of painting. Doing 1-5 dudes at once takes forever for someone new, it's better to paint 30 models in a single batch.

I bought my 28mm soviets for Chain of Command for like $150, and that's because I really wanted a niche model that is uncommon (a T-35). For $150 more I was able to accessorize out into a whole other two platoons of tanks...

Just to ask, is it really that common for people to just immediately buy into 40k at 2k points?
I literally can't think of any person I've known who has started the hobby like that. Everyone I know started off with an Edition's Starter Box or a Battleforce (the old ones that got replaced by SC Boxes, not the £100 Xmas boxes).

 Gert wrote:
Just to ask, is it really that common for people to just immediately buy into 40k at 2k points?
I literally can't think of any person I've known who has started the hobby like that. Everyone I know started off with an Edition's Starter Box or a Battleforce (the old ones that got replaced by SC Boxes, not the £100 Xmas boxes).

People who are already into the hobby for sure. People who are starting definitely not, many buy just a few kits which require them a lot of work to complete and still cost some good money only to discover that games with just such models, that are worthy of 500ish pints, suck. That's the biggest barrier in my experience, that's why I advise beginners to get 1000ish points at once. Old battleforces had enough models to play properly and were excellent deals for beginners.

hobojebus wrote:
Ultimately it's what's going to cause GW real issues as older players die off there won't be anyone to replace them.

The price of their mini's present a massive barrier to entry.

When I started you could buy models for £4 like terminators, characters were £7.

You could buy stuff for pocket money, now nothing's under £15.

Don’t forget to take inflation into account when you pull out the nostalgia glasses. I remember paying $20 for a box of marines, but in today’s dollars, it would be closer to $45.

I do miss blister packs. It made it easier to slowly build, and were more at a impusle buy or upsale level. The only thing you can walk out of a GW these days without spending “real” money is maybe a paint pot. They did do those blind boxes, which made decent stocking stuffers for Christmas.

 Gert wrote:
Just to ask, is it really that common for people to just immediately buy into 40k at 2k points?
I literally can't think of any person I've known who has started the hobby like that. Everyone I know started off with an Edition's Starter Box or a Battleforce (the old ones that got replaced by SC Boxes, not the £100 Xmas boxes).

I'm currently starting up a small 40k group in my hometown - typically you've got two kinds of new 40k players, the "Boundless Enthusiasm" and the "Cost Averse." The main problem you run into is that the ~20-25% of your player group that REALLY wants to escalate really hard and just buys and buys and buys massively outpaces the more common 'buy a start collecting box and stick with it' player.

What we've kind of settled on for a strategy is to play 1k point games, with the option of 2 players each bringing 500 or 1 playre bringing 1000. 500pts is most combat patrol boxes at this point.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
DON'T BUY YOUR ARMY ALL AT ONCE!

The barrier of sticker shock is NOTHING to the barrier of Unpainted minis/wall of shame for dissuading players!

Agreed!

I am currently thinking about starting GSC near the end of the year (as I plan to close down some little projects (small MESBG stuff, rest of my Tyras, just the last few IG tanks) and opening up hobby time) and thought about just buying 5-6x the SC box and a brood coven, with 66€ per SC box (at an online retailer) this is already pretty expensive for just around 1k points. But then again, I have Imps and Tyras as allies/brood brothers.

Even more expensive is the thought of staring a (esp. Competetive) Ad Mech army. The laser chickens and doggos are pretty expensive. Thankfully I am not (yet) interested in Ad Mech.

 the_scotsman wrote:


What we've kind of settled on for a strategy is to play 1k point games, with the option of 2 players each bringing 500 or 1 playre bringing 1000. 500pts is most combat patrol boxes at this point.

That sounds very sensible.

 Gert wrote:
Just to ask, is it really that common for people to just immediately buy into 40k at 2k points?
I literally can't think of any person I've known who has started the hobby like that. Everyone I know started off with an Edition's Starter Box or a Battleforce (the old ones that got replaced by SC Boxes, not the £100 Xmas boxes).

I don't know about overall, but within the circles I play in it's not at all uncommon. I can name 5 people who who started 40k that way within the past year*.
One of them even started AoS like that nearly simultaniously. 1st he built a 2k pt AoS Lumineth army. Two months later he built a 2k pt SoB force.
Yeah, we joked about him giving GW all his $s.... Then when both of those forces gained additional stuff? He was all in for both. Now he has around 3k for each system. He went from having never played a minis game before to full speed in about 90 days.

What I see happen most often in recent years is that someone will join one of these games by building an army to whatever the most common size local games are played at.
After that they expand the force or buy into other forces within the same system more slowly.
Of course there are some slow build exceptions - the high school kids at the local shop simply lack the funds we adults can throw at a project/hobby. And alot of our AoS players who joined in 2019 started small as we were playing Path to Glory campaigns.

*2020 also had another factor $ wise going on here in the USA. The Govt. sent out several rounds stimulus funds to try & aid people while things were shut down/people out of work due to Covid. Nearly everyone got them, regardless of status.
Most of the people in my gaming circles? They were never out of work. In fact some were busier than ever.... So those stimulus funds? That was just extra $. Add that into vacation funds that weren't getting spent + overtime pay.... Yeah, they could afford entire armies in one go.
Not sure my Govt envisioned us stimulating the economy by buying toy soldiers, but that's what happened.

For me at this stage is a SC box and 2-3 other boxes. That gives you what would have been a full army in early 3e and I'm perfectly happy with that.

My necron army is SC plus Praetorians, Wraiths and a Spyder. That's 23 infantry, 3 large infantry, 2 vehicles and 2 leaders. Back in the day that was a pretty decent army! Maybe one more thing added to it and you'd be at 1500 points.

 Nevelon wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Ultimately it's what's going to cause GW real issues as older players die off there won't be anyone to replace them.

The price of their mini's present a massive barrier to entry.

When I started you could buy models for £4 like terminators, characters were £7.

You could buy stuff for pocket money, now nothing's under £15.

Don’t forget to take inflation into account when you pull out the nostalgia glasses. I remember paying $20 for a box of marines, but in today’s dollars, it would be closer to $45.

I do miss blister packs. It made it easier to slowly build, and were more at a impusle buy or upsale level. The only thing you can walk out of a GW these days without spending “real” money is maybe a paint pot. They did do those blind boxes, which made decent stocking stuffers for Christmas.

Which inflation rate that you are referring to? The one that the central banks claim is inflation, or the inflation rate that Gee Dubs uses to justify a price hike on their plastic crack to us poly heads?

Custodes is cheap but get really expensive when you want anything other than infantry or bikes as they mostly live with forgeworld. Necrons on the other hand are crazy cheap due to being the unwanted child or the starter boxes. Also factor in the upcoming Imperium magazines, you’ll struggle to find a cheaper army.

Final consideration (if you’re being really tight) is the cost of paint. Necrons can use very few colours and still look good

 Da Boss wrote:
For me at this stage is a SC box and 2-3 other boxes. That gives you what would have been a full army in early 3e and I'm perfectly happy with that.

Agree, this is the point at which I feel like I have a coherent force, so ergo an Army. Now does it have enuff of whatever to meet all challenges? No. Is it an excellent base to build up from? Yes.

It's a shame that what was once an army, isn't even 2 squads, a vehicle and an HQ now.

The game is now undeniably way too expensive. For all the fuss of the "joy" of fielding a 2000 point army for a battle of 9th edition...the reality of that is an incredibly underwhelming and droll time sink of strategem babble and rerolls.

I would advise to spend the time exploring some of GWs other rule systems. Epic, in particular, holds up quite well and can be more or less proxied with 28mm models. Inquisitor is really cool too. I like 3-5th edition 40k as well, just feels like a better game with a lower model count.

TinyLegions wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Ultimately it's what's going to cause GW real issues as older players die off there won't be anyone to replace them.

The price of their mini's present a massive barrier to entry.

When I started you could buy models for £4 like terminators, characters were £7.

You could buy stuff for pocket money, now nothing's under £15.

Don’t forget to take inflation into account when you pull out the nostalgia glasses. I remember paying $20 for a box of marines, but in today’s dollars, it would be closer to $45.

I do miss blister packs. It made it easier to slowly build, and were more at a impusle buy or upsale level. The only thing you can walk out of a GW these days without spending “real” money is maybe a paint pot. They did do those blind boxes, which made decent stocking stuffers for Christmas.

Which inflation rate that you are referring to? The one that the central banks claim is inflation, or the inflation rate that Gee Dubs uses to justify a price hike on their plastic crack to us poly heads?

Actual inflation.

I’m ignoring the fact that $20 got me 30 RTB01 marines, where a box of 10 interecessors is what, $60? GW is way ahead of the curve, no argument. But let’s not compare MSRP from ~20 years ago without some filters on it.

Even if GW went back to the old system, a blister pack would probably be $15-20 in today’s dollars for most of them.

 Gregor Samsa wrote:


I like 3-5th edition 40k as well, just feels like a better game with a lower model count.

What armies did you play? Because I played orks and Space wolves in 3rd and 5th and I definitely had more models back then. I basically keep all the lists I play, I'm not exaggerating, most of the stuff was cheaper in points in those old editions. The only real difference is probably the format as 1500 was quite popular at that time and in that case average games had of course lower model count. But many already played 2000 points.

For clarity when I posted about the cost of a 2k chaos knights army I was not talking about buying it all at once.

And with regards to 3D printers, I don’t know loads about them but from what I have read it’s not as if you just plug them in and you can start printing of GW quality models. Even the good models I have seen, printed off, need work before painting. And more work than the usual assent and mould line removal of GW minis

 Nevelon wrote:

Actual inflation.
I’m ignoring the fact that $20 got me 30 RTB01 marines, where a box of 10 interecessors is what, $60? GW is way ahead of the curve, no argument. But let’s not compare MSRP from ~20 years ago without some filters on it.

Even if GW went back to the old system, a blister pack would probably be $15-20 in today’s dollars for most of them.

comparing works in some cases
my old 5th Edi Army Book was 240ÖS, would be now 24€ including inlfation
but than, the book has less coloured pages, softcover etc.
you can compare it but it does not really work

having the box of 20 Cadians being the same price including inflation as the (now old) 10 model box is something different, speciall as those are the very same models

I have found space marines to be the cheapest if you don't mind buying 2nd hand badly painted job lots off ebay. I got 2000 pts for under £100. Units that aint 'meta' are also cheaper if you're not bothered about that.

On the flipside i'm building a retro metal ork army and sometimes paying £5 for a boy, because I love the models.

Those chaos knights are not really expensive compared to the joy they will bring - how many hours paintng and playing will you get? If you compromise and collect something you don't love based on cost you may regret it. Having said thatic lets be realistic, £90 is a lot of money. You could start with some cheap chaos space marines or alternate 3rd party model cultists and start playing, knowing you can ally with those knights when you eventually get them.

My Necron army is really cheap - it's Warriors (converted in many diferent ways to represent other units), Scarabs and rubbish.

 kodos wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

Actual inflation.
I’m ignoring the fact that $20 got me 30 RTB01 marines, where a box of 10 interecessors is what, $60? GW is way ahead of the curve, no argument. But let’s not compare MSRP from ~20 years ago without some filters on it.

Even if GW went back to the old system, a blister pack would probably be $15-20 in today’s dollars for most of them.

comparing works in some cases
my old 5th Edi Army Book was 240ÖS, would be now 24€ including inlfation
but than, the book has less coloured pages, softcover etc.
you can compare it but it does not really work

having the box of 20 Cadians being the same price including inflation as the (now old) 10 model box is something different, speciall as those are the very same models

Looking at what I paid when I started it's about 35e if it was just inflation for box of infantry. So certainly 10e or so more GW addition. Then comes quality of model discussion. Now model details are better though monopose.

Sharpest increase on characters thanks to GW's fixation on everythings plastic even for models not ideal for plastic.

Big center piece certainly gone up in price though so has quality and size. Whether enough is matter of taste of course. Is Archaon now worth the extra money compared to say old dragon models? Price certainly has gone way up even beyond inflation but so has size and technically details are higher quality. Style of course is matter of taste(some might prefer less of those details).

Some kits have gone way up, some have actually gone CHEAPER inflation adjusted(solo vehicles/monsters that turned into plastic are particular common for these. Dreadnoughts for example) though those are minority Characters been big offenders. Cadian box is obviously another big offender(and other similar boxes that got repackaged into half the size).

I tried buying second hand models and to be honest they tend be in a state requiring so much effort to get them looking good that it’s not worth the saving

mrFickle wrote:
I tried buying second hand models and to be honest they tend be in a state requiring so much effort to get them looking good that it’s not worth the saving

That's the tradeoff

Myself been running into opposite issue. Can't find cheap 2nd handed. These days everything seems to get high price. And old models gets tagged OOP ULTRA RARE and price goes up the roof(boy did I get laugh when only copy of khamul the easterling on ebay I found was mounted+foot version for same price GW sells it + 2 other ringwraiths brand new...you REALLY have to love metal over finecast to pay that).

Certainly I pay attention to assembly+any damage. Paint job is whatever. It's easy enough to strip away as long as it's metal/plastic/FW resin(finecast is trickier).

I've never bought 2nd hand and not ended up regretting it.

My own building ability and expectations are now well above anything I can find for cheap, which means I buy it then either have to live with sub-par models or I just never touch them and buy a new model anyway.

Crispy78 wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Steep sure but I tend to spend 20-30 gbp at a time so don’t notice it or buy the value boxes. Thinking about spending £90 per unit really hits home the cost

They're about £70 a pop on Dark Sphere...

This.

You needn't pay £90-100 per Knight, and nor should you. Dark Sphere are excellent, and offer about as deep a discount on new models as you'll find in the UK. When (if) the Renegades box is available, the price drops even steeper.

For Cerastus and Acastus Knights, you can find cheap examples on Ebay, so long as you're familiar with how to strip a model and re-finish any issues with the resin the previous owner may have caused.

If you avoid GW's prices, and spend wisely, Knights really are one of the absolute cheapest armies around.

+1 for recommending Dark Sphere.

As others have said, it varies from army to army, list to list and where you’re sourcing your models from.

Knights, with only a modicum of skill in magnetising models, are pretty flexible. Expensive at first? Sure. Even when buying and painting one at a time, £70-£90 is still a significant spent (other armies are more forgiving, as you might only do it a single unit or box at a time). But once that’s done, with magnetised weapons you can squeeze maximum flexibility, allowing you to change up your load out without needing to buy a whole new kit.

This is especially true of Chaos Knights, as they’re not as tied to specific load outs as their Imperial counterparts.

One can also shop smart. Indomitus for example was great for Necrons. Buy a single box, and swap contents with a Marine player and you’ve got a pretty solid core for about the best price you could hope for.

The overall expense also depends upon your gaming preference. If you’re into the tournament scene, you’re more likely to spend money keeping up with changes to the game. It’s by no means compulsory, but compared to someone just playing “friendly” games, you are more likely to spend extra.

The tighter your budget, the more I’d say plan ahead. Thinking of adding a new unit? Why not try proxying it for a game or two to see how you get on with it. Outside of an actual organised event, I suspect most opponents would be fine with that, as it can be a reciprocal arrangement. They may not need to do that themselves (everyone’s pocket is a different depth, and not necessarily limited to income constraints), but to know the option is there is encouraging.

A Knight army can be $500-600 with an extra little one for options. The GSC army i want is over 2k (USD).

It really depends on the army.

I am also in the 3d printing category but also buy one box per month of actual GW product be it a boxset (sometimes 3 or 4 a month is a cool box set like indomudus or beast snagga box) i think that is a better way to start a army if wanting to go pure out of GW models.
That said as mentioned you can do a custodes army for quite cheap and if willing to get some used models like contemptor dreadnaughts or land raiders off ebay and spray paint them gold they become even cheaper.

if willing to 3d print though depends on the printer, the highest detail printer small scale is ~$350 (phrozen sonic mini 4k) and resin ~$40 per kg for good high detail resin, with 2kg you could easily do a 2k point counts as army so that wins as far as price.

The game is officially supporting 500, 1000 and 2000 points missions.

Nobody needs to start right away with a big investment to play the game. Get a SC or combat patrol box of your liking and go ham.

TinyLegions wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Ultimately it's what's going to cause GW real issues as older players die off there won't be anyone to replace them.

The price of their mini's present a massive barrier to entry.

When I started you could buy models for £4 like terminators, characters were £7.

You could buy stuff for pocket money, now nothing's under £15.

Don’t forget to take inflation into account when you pull out the nostalgia glasses. I remember paying $20 for a box of marines, but in today’s dollars, it would be closer to $45.

I do miss blister packs. It made it easier to slowly build, and were more at a impusle buy or upsale level. The only thing you can walk out of a GW these days without spending “real” money is maybe a paint pot. They did do those blind boxes, which made decent stocking stuffers for Christmas.

Which inflation rate that you are referring to? The one that the central banks claim is inflation, or the inflation rate that Gee Dubs uses to justify a price hike on their plastic crack to us poly heads?

Honestly, the pricing sucks but if the past 10 years of mobile gaming and Nintendo scams (skyward sword on switch for 60$?!?! They didn't even change it!) have taught us anything, it's that money isn't as big of a barrier to entry as you'd think.

Painting will always remain the single biggest barrier to getting new people into GW games.

a_typical_hero wrote:
The game is officially supporting 500, 1000 and 2000 points missions.

Nobody needs to start right away with a big investment to play the game. Get a SC or combat patrol box of your liking and go ham.

Just because you can play doesn't mean it works. Gw games are unscalable. The super wonky system works somehow in one size. Change from that and it goes crazy

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I am also in the 3d printing category but also buy one box per month of actual GW product be it a boxset (sometimes 3 or 4 a month is a cool box set like indomudus or beast snagga box) i think that is a better way to start a army if wanting to go pure out of GW models.
That said as mentioned you can do a custodes army for quite cheap and if willing to get some used models like contemptor dreadnaughts or land raiders off ebay and spray paint them gold they become even cheaper.

if willing to 3d print though depends on the printer, the highest detail printer small scale is ~$350 (phrozen sonic mini 4k) and resin ~$40 per kg for good high detail resin, with 2kg you could easily do a 2k point counts as army so that wins as far as price.

Provided you consider time+labor to be largely free. Cleaning and prepping even extremely high quality resin 3d prints for painting is far more arduous than cleaning a handful of moldlines and sprue burs.


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tneva82 wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
I tried buying second hand models and to be honest they tend be in a state requiring so much effort to get them looking good that it’s not worth the saving

That's the tradeoff

Myself been running into opposite issue. Can't find cheap 2nd handed. These days everything seems to get high price. And old models gets tagged OOP ULTRA RARE and price goes up the roof(boy did I get laugh when only copy of khamul the easterling on ebay I found was mounted+foot version for same price GW sells it + 2 other ringwraiths brand new...you REALLY have to love metal over finecast to pay that).

Certainly I pay attention to assembly+any damage. Paint job is whatever. It's easy enough to strip away as long as it's metal/plastic/FW resin(finecast is trickier).

It takes months of checking and rechecking to find anything that's reasonably priced that isn't totally destroyed in most secondhand markets. Especially ones with an auction feature. People buying Penitent engines missing half their parts and done up with Sherwin-Williams for more than retail because they either can't do math or have a gambling problem...

Looking at when I started and now, prices are just above inflation on most kits.

When I started, minimum wage in my province was $8.00. Now it's $14.25- a bit shy of double.

Troops boxes, if I remember correctly, went for $30-35 at the time, and come in at $70.00 now- double or slightly higher.

As others have pointed out though, some boxes have significantly more than doubled and others have had the number of models in them reduced.

ERJAK wrote:
Provided you consider time+labor to be largely free. Cleaning and prepping even extremely high quality resin 3d prints for painting is far more arduous than cleaning a handful of moldlines and sprue burs.

Last time I assembled a box of 8 Genestealers it took an hour and a half to carefully scrape off the mold lines that were prominent and visible on every single part, then glue them together. I'll take throwing a print in isopropyl for three minutes and then breaking off the supports by hand over all that tedious mold line removal any day.

If you want to talk time and labor for 3D printing versus kits in general, then there's a lot more to look at than just prepping for paint.

tneva82 wrote:
Just because you can play doesn't mean it works. Gw games are unscalable. The super wonky system works somehow in one size. Change from that and it goes crazy

Anecdotal counter point: That is not my experience. We play a lot of <2000p (500 and 1000 mostly, sometimes 1500 thrown in) games at my local club lately and the tables haven't gone up in flames so far.

ERJAK wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I am also in the 3d printing category but also buy one box per month of actual GW product be it a boxset (sometimes 3 or 4 a month is a cool box set like indomudus or beast snagga box) i think that is a better way to start a army if wanting to go pure out of GW models.
That said as mentioned you can do a custodes army for quite cheap and if willing to get some used models like contemptor dreadnaughts or land raiders off ebay and spray paint them gold they become even cheaper.

if willing to 3d print though depends on the printer, the highest detail printer small scale is ~$350 (phrozen sonic mini 4k) and resin ~$40 per kg for good high detail resin, with 2kg you could easily do a 2k point counts as army so that wins as far as price.

Provided you consider time+labor to be largely free. Cleaning and prepping even extremely high quality resin 3d prints for painting is far more arduous than cleaning a handful of moldlines and sprue burs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
I tried buying second hand models and to be honest they tend be in a state requiring so much effort to get them looking good that it’s not worth the saving

That's the tradeoff

Myself been running into opposite issue. Can't find cheap 2nd handed. These days everything seems to get high price. And old models gets tagged OOP ULTRA RARE and price goes up the roof(boy did I get laugh when only copy of khamul the easterling on ebay I found was mounted+foot version for same price GW sells it + 2 other ringwraiths brand new...you REALLY have to love metal over finecast to pay that).

Certainly I pay attention to assembly+any damage. Paint job is whatever. It's easy enough to strip away as long as it's metal/plastic/FW resin(finecast is trickier).

It takes months of checking and rechecking to find anything that's reasonably priced that isn't totally destroyed in most secondhand markets. Especially ones with an auction feature. People buying Penitent engines missing half their parts and done up with Sherwin-Williams for more than retail because they either can't do math or have a gambling problem...

if you dial in the settings for supports they literally pop off at the connection without leaving a line. most of my prints are done single piece, I use a water washable resin and a wash and cure station. remove build plate from the printer, put in wash station full of water for 20 min, dump the water into another container to evaporate in the sun then peel off supports and cure for 20 min. straight to prime and paint from there.

I've been watching some vids on 3D printing the difference is massive between buying from gw and doing it yourself.

For example someone could print a warhound titan for £20.

And sure at this early stage it's still rough detail wise but the tech advances quickly it won't be long before you can match forgeworld for a fraction of what they charge.

And for smaller stuff resin printers are already able to do put out amazing quality.

a_typical_hero wrote:
The game is officially supporting 500, 1000 and 2000 points missions.

Nobody needs to start right away with a big investment to play the game. Get a SC or combat patrol box of your liking and go ham.

Doesn't really matter.
The deciding factor on how much you need is what's actually played in your meta.

I'm pretty sure you can ask other players to play different point sizes even if 2k is your local standard.

a_typical_hero wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Just because you can play doesn't mean it works. Gw games are unscalable. The super wonky system works somehow in one size. Change from that and it goes crazy

Anecdotal counter point: That is not my experience. We play a lot of <2000p (500 and 1000 mostly, sometimes 1500 thrown in) games at my local club lately and the tables haven't gone up in flames so far.

Agree, been playing a bunch of 500ish pt games on a 6x4 and 9th works fine

hobojebus wrote:
I've been watching some vids on 3D printing the difference is massive between buying from gw and doing it yourself.

For example someone could print a warhound titan for £20.

And sure at this early stage it's still rough detail wise but the tech advances quickly it won't be long before you can match forgeworld for a fraction of what they charge.

And for smaller stuff resin printers are already able to do put out amazing quality.

Yep, a modified resincast NDK costs a bit ovee 13$ when recast, and in my case, I wouldn't have to pay postal fees. Doesn't realy entice you to buy a 60$ one at the store.

hobojebus wrote:
I've been watching some vids on 3D printing the difference is massive between buying from gw and doing it yourself.

For example someone could print a warhound titan for £20.

And sure at this early stage it's still rough detail wise but the tech advances quickly it won't be long before you can match forgeworld for a fraction of what they charge.

And for smaller stuff resin printers are already able to do put out amazing quality.

there already are larger resin 3d printers that can print large scale models. you can run a phrozen mega 8k (have mine ordered not yet arrived) $1600 gets a build volume of 33 x 18.5 x 40 cm with pizels small enough (43 microns) that you can almost fit 4 pixels in the space of the thickness of the average human hair (75 microns).

for titans imperial knights vehicles etc though you can get away with a saturn, mighty 4k, or monoX (among others) in the ~500 range and get every bit the retail of forgeworld casts for less than the cost of the forgeworld model, and you get to customize as you with for your counts as as well

a_typical_hero wrote:
I'm pretty sure you can ask other players to play different point sizes even if 2k is your local standard.

Or see if someone else wants to do a tag-team, if it comes down to it.

I agree with the suggestion to stick to smaller game sizes. 1000pts has been the typical value I build forces to when I'm getting started; diving right into 2K is an awful lot of work and expense.

It is not easy to convince someone who bought a 2k pts army, to play different game sizes. First because they want to play with the stuff they have, second because their army may not be optimised for under 2000pts and if the units come in odd points chunks they may not even be able to field a 1000pts army.

Karol wrote:
It is not easy to convince someone who bought a 2k pts army, to play different game sizes. First because they want to play with the stuff they have, second because their army may not be optimised for under 2000pts and if the units come in odd points chunks they may not even be able to field a 1000pts army.

Have you not heard of random wargear upgrades?
Oh no, I'm only at 990pts! Guess I'll put melta bombs on everything.

Karol wrote:
It is not easy to convince someone who bought a 2k pts army, to play different game sizes. First because they want to play with the stuff they have, second because their army may not be optimised for under 2000pts and if the units come in odd points chunks they may not even be able to field a 1000pts army.

It's very easy if the person you are talking to is reasonable at all.

Knights can certainly be difficult to hit certain points limits with, but I'm not sure they're that expensive. My Chaos Knights army is 1,800 points, and at RRP would cost £320 (although I paid about £250 by not buying directly from GW).

hobojebus wrote:

And sure at this early stage it's still rough detail wise but the tech advances quickly it won't be long before you can match forgeworld for a fraction of what they charge.

Early stage? Rough detail? Well maybe I suppose - if you're only spending proverbial lunch $ on your set up....
Otherwise, news flash: We caught up to matching FW detail a few years ago.

It's useful to compare with other games. The Cadian Defence Force matches Bolt Action starter armies in both price and content, broadly. The CDF effectively swaps a couple of squads for a Chimera. Comes to about 500 points for 40k, or 1000 points for a BA army.

I know they're mostly 20 year old sculpts, but I like them. There's also a £40-50 discount on the individual boxes (at the time - the troops have had an extra sprue thrown in since the set was released).

The big difference is that 1 such set would be perfect for a game of Bolt Action, and 2 would be overkill for even big games - the expansion sets add one tank, one soft-skin transport and a command squad. In 40k, a 2000-point force would be 4 of those CDF box (no idea if it's even legal at that point). That's not including fancy troops at a price premium.

In BA, 20 troops is about £30, a tank is £20. You pay a premium for metal field guns and heavy weapons teams (machine gun, mortar).

Astra Militarum I feel are a bad example and they often get shafted with pricing more than other armies.
The recent Cadian upgrade is indicative of this IMO since now the box is £29 up from £18 for the same amount of models but more gubbins. It's not conducive to army building when the base troop unit that is dirt cheap and you need to spam costs nearly the same as a box of Space Marines.
However, I think the CDF is a good choice and can very easily be reworked to give more bang for your buck. From that box, I could easily make a Lord Commisar, Company Commander, 2 Platoon Commanders, a Tank Commander, 2 Infantry Squads, a Heavy Weapon Squad, a Chimera, and a Master of Ordnance. Is it optimised or competitive? Heck no but it is very easy to do and nabbing the SC box would make it quite a substantial force IMO. In fact the list I just made is just under the Crusade starting Power level.

Totally agree with you @Gert. I picked the CDF specifically for 1) the savings; 2) the flexibility; and 3) a fairly direct comparison with a different game in terms of playability.

The change in price for the Cadian troop box has kind of messed them up compared to Stargrave or Wargames Atlantic plastics, where a cheaper box will give you twice the models.

In a game like Bolt Action, where you have other factors like unit pinning to contend with, 20 troops, command, a few heavy weapons and 2 vehicles gives you a lot to do on the table.

Sorry - an aside from the main course of the thread.

 Gert wrote:

Have you not heard of random wargear upgrades?
Oh no, I'm only at 990pts! Guess I'll put melta bombs on everything.

I am talking about situations when if you try to take 1000pts , you end up with something like two troop choices and an HQ costing you something like 920-930. And there being nothing good in the codex or even nothing at all, that can fit in in 80pts. Or your stuff to work requiring a 700-800pts formation of models to work, where without taking it the how combination doesn't work at it makes no sense to run it at all. The whole play 1000pts only works for specific armies or for people with collections over 2000pts. Not all armies can downgrade 1000pts and still function efficiently.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:


It's very easy if the person you are talking to is reasonable at all.

Got it people wanting to play with their models, not wanting to buy extra models just so you can play, because you don't want or can't buy a regular size army is the unreasonable thing to do. And people just doing what ever you asked them to do is.

And that is before stuff time cost or fun them game is even added to the game. An elite army played at 1000pts may, just not be fun to play, specially when GW designed it to work only at more points.

 Gert wrote:
In fact the list I just made is just under the Crusade starting Power level.

which is the point, for the same price you get a starting army in 40k, or a full tournament ready army in BA
140€ MSRP
CDF: 25 Infantry, 1 Tank, 1 Transport, 3 heavy weapon teams, starter army
WW2 Rubicon+Perry (without a discount Box): 38 Infantry, 1 Tank, 1 Transport, 3 heavy weapon teams, 1 Artillery, full army for BA
GCPS Mega Army: 42 Infantry, 1 Tank, 1 Transport, 4 heavy weapon teams, 2 Walker, full army for WP Firefight

there are 2 problems coming together, first the CDF content is low for the price compared to similar boxes (if the models are better depends on personal taste, for me GCPS > Cadia), but this is GW. Second problem is that the content of the force is just a starter force and you need more to play the full game while with the other two you only need more if you want to have options

Karol wrote:
I am talking about situations when if you try to take 1000pts , you end up with something like two troop choices and an HQ costing you something like 920-930. And there being nothing good in the codex or even nothing at all, that can fit in in 80pts. Or your stuff to work requiring a 700-800pts formation of models to work, where without taking it the how combination doesn't work at it makes no sense to run it at all. The whole play 1000pts only works for specific armies or for people with collections over 2000pts. Not all armies can downgrade 1000pts and still function efficiently.

Just remodel your list. I guess you are using 2x10 Terminators and a GMNDK in your example. Switch the GM to a regular NDK, add a Librarian and you got 1000p spot on (going by current Wahapedia). Everybody has to make "sacrifices" to their list at lower point levels.

Karol wrote:
Got it people wanting to play with their models, not wanting to buy extra models just so you can play, because you don't want or can't buy a regular size army is the unreasonable thing to do. And people just doing what ever you asked them to do is.

And that is before stuff time cost or fun them game is even added to the game. An elite army played at 1000pts may, just not be fun to play, specially when GW designed it to work only at more points.

In a social game where both sides are supposed to have fun, coming to a consens is the reasonable thing to do. If you want to play your 2k points, bring a third guy to the game so the beginner can team up.

Racerguy180 wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Just because you can play doesn't mean it works. Gw games are unscalable. The super wonky system works somehow in one size. Change from that and it goes crazy

Anecdotal counter point: That is not my experience. We play a lot of <2000p (500 and 1000 mostly, sometimes 1500 thrown in) games at my local club lately and the tables haven't gone up in flames so far.

Agree, been playing a bunch of 500ish pt games on a 6x4 and 9th works fine

I sometimes play 1500 points games, a format that according to GW shouldn't even have proper missions. And yet it feels much more balanced than the 2000 points one. It's basically 2000 with the "caveat" that players have to make actual decisions in listbuilding and some of the OP stuff can't find place in the list. Tables are also the same size of 2000 points but with actual space to maneuver and movement does matter.

1000 points is much more standard and it's also a very good format that works quite well.

a_typical_hero 800263 11197762 wrote:
Just remodel your list. I guess you are using 2x10 Terminators and a GMNDK in your example. Switch the GM to a regular NDK, add a Librarian and you got 1000p spot on (going by current Wahapedia). Everybody has to make "sacrifices" to their list at lower point levels.

But other armies are more efficient. Why Would I or anyone else want to play at a point level where my army is less fun to play with? I mean maybe there are armies that work better at 1000pts, then at 2000pts. But why should anyone who does not play exactly those armies and those builds care? It is litterally having less fun yourself, in order for others to have fun. And I gues if someone has a fun army to play with or multiple armies, they don't care as much, but if you have one or not really having as much fun as you may have wanted to, you will just not do it. Plus it requires to rebuild armies, rewrite lists and people don't like that. It is like in sports when some orgenises an event and decides that throws are not going to be allowed. Some people or school just skip events like that, specially as they don't help you get better at the real events.

a_typical_hero 800263 11197762 wrote:
In a social game where both sides are supposed to have fun, coming to a consens is the reasonable thing to do. If you want to play your 2k points, bring a third guy to the game so the beginner can team up.

Yes and in those moments when there are two people playing at your store this may work. But in a situation when the stores consist of 20-30 people with 2000pts players and one or two new people who don't have 2000pts, the chance of the majority adjusting to the minority is zero. Unless some wierd stuff happens. Like the son of local even orgeniser says he wants to play 1250. well if you want to play at the store ever again you are going to play 1250pts with him.

I don't think the comparison between 40k and BA is fair. 40k models use different materials (superior plastic IMO) and companies like Warlord and Rubicon can afford to be cheap with their products because there's no design team working to create original models. The Warlord team can literally just hop on a train to Bovington and go look at real life examples of the products they're making. There is also a lot of interchangeability in GW ranges where 40k and AoS parts can be exchanged or added with minimal fuss.
GW is expensive yes but it's still very easy to find cheap ways to get models. I know at least one Indy store owner who says there's no point in stocking Warlord products because they've made it so cheap to go direct to them.

As a side note, leave Karol to be angry. There is literally no reason to have a discussion with them as they are incapable of understanding other viewpoints.

Karol only deals in absolutes.

It either is wiping the floor with opponent or its useless.

The fact that Bolt Action is working with real things puts other pressures on the models; you can't just make stuff up to suit like GW can. There's also pressure to get it right. No one is going to cry foul because a Leman Russ has 6 rivets instead of 7 along that seam.
It's also not like GW is working on razor thin margins, their profits are incredibly high.

 Gert wrote:
I don't think the comparison between 40k and BA is fair. 40k models use different materials (superior plastic IMO) and companies like Warlord and Rubicon can afford to be cheap with their products because there's no design team working to create original models.

this is bs

the plastic is the same for everyone and also Warlord and Rubicon need models designers to make models from artworks or pictures
making an original model is not more work than making a historical accurate one

it is easier and need less work to make an new Primaris Lieutenant for another chapter or making new versions of old models than creating a new historical plastic army

it is not like that you just take the picture of a WW2 tank give it to the mold maker and 6 months later you get a container full of plastic models
you might not need to pay someone to create the artwork, yet you have to pay someone doing the research to get the already available ones together

@kodos, good point about Mantic - I had forgotten about Warpath. Definitely my bad.

Karol wrote:

a_typical_hero 800263 11197762 wrote:
Just remodel your list. I guess you are using 2x10 Terminators and a GMNDK in your example. Switch the GM to a regular NDK, add a Librarian and you got 1000p spot on (going by current Wahapedia). Everybody has to make "sacrifices" to their list at lower point levels.

But other armies are more efficient. Why Would I or anyone else want to play at a point level where my army is less fun to play with? I mean maybe there are armies that work better at 1000pts, then at 2000pts. But why should anyone who does not play exactly those armies and those builds care? It is litterally having less fun yourself, in order for others to have fun. And I gues if someone has a fun army to play with or multiple armies, they don't care as much, but if you have one or not really having as much fun as you may have wanted to, you will just not do it. Plus it requires to rebuild armies, rewrite lists and people don't like that. It is like in sports when some orgenises an event and decides that throws are not going to be allowed. Some people or school just skip events like that, specially as they don't help you get better at the real events.

Believe it or not, some of us *don't* play in an environment where the attitude is "Sorry new guy, you MUST collect a 2000 point army before we will grudgingly play with you - and you'd better have brought your A game because I'm about to tear you a new arsehole and stuff a metal dreadnaught up it"

If playing Warhammer is only fun because you have a perfectly tailored list to beat people with, and any change away from that is 'less fun', then that's a terrible approach to tabletop gaming and life in general.

I buy a mix of direct from GW, online stores with discount, and second hand. All depends on what I'm looking for, and how quickly I want it. I don't buy a lot from GW (these days it's mostly just paints, books and Underworlds Warbands), so I'm not too fussed if I'm saving a couple of bucks buying from here or there.

For me, I do like to buy mostly at my local warhammer store. It's not due a loyalty to GW in particular, but (pre pandemic), was the place I played the most, and I think if you're going to play at a store (whatever it is), it behooves you to support the store by buying stuff there. I want the place to continue being there.

If you just buy everything online, or 3d print and use a stores space for gaming, it's a bit of a parasitic attitude to have. If you just play at home, then do whatever you want.

When I do build an army though, it's over the course of a long time. Maybe a single purchase a month. Folks in my community mostly play 2k, but everyone is happy playing any size.

 kodos wrote:
the plastic is the same for everyone and also Warlord and Rubicon need models designers to make models from artworks or pictures
making an original model is not more work than making a historical accurate one

The plastic isn't the same. Have you built any Warlord or Rubicon kits? It's much harder than GW plastic which can be sculpted with relevant ease.
As for designing, when you have easy access to hundreds of images, documents on the thing you are making a model out of or can even view them in real life, like a Sherman or Pz.IV, it takes much less time to produce a render or scale model. I'm not saying it's a process any mook with a computer can do but designing from scratch is much harder than designing from a real-world object.

it is easier and need less work to make an new Primaris Lieutenant for another chapter or making new versions of old models than creating a new historical plastic army

Bit of a false equivalence there. 1 model vs an army.

it is not like that you just take the picture of a WW2 tank give it to the mold maker and 6 months later you get a container full of plastic models

If I asked you to make me a decent model of a Sherman and a decent model of an entirely new concept, something like Kharadron Overlords, what would take less time? There's no idea stage for the Sherman because it already exists and at no point do you have to worry about taking ideas from another person's design because IP laws don't cover historical settings or things.

you might not need to pay someone to create the artwork, yet you have to pay someone doing the research to get the already available ones together

In the BA USA army book, there are 20 pieces of drawn/painted art all of which come from books by Osprey Publishing who prints the BA books. The vast majority of images are of BA models and even 2 pictures of an actual M1 Garand and Thompson SMG. For other historical settings the publisher can use actual art depicting events portrayed because once again, IP laws can't prevent this in many cases.
Compare that to a 40k Codex where every single piece of art has to be original because 40k is a fictional setting. No freebies for pictures of Boltguns because they don't exist. No using pictures or art depicting events because they don't exist (as in a piece of art depicting something like the Battle of Trafalgar or the Charge of the Light Brigade).

Just because GW's plastic is better doesnt mean they spend more money on it than their "competitors". They most likely get away with spending less per model in production and then sell it with a higher price as well for a much better profit margin.

GW models have gone up in detail over the years, that is true. But their production costs haven't increased at the same pace. A very detailed plastic model today should be cheaper for them to make than their old counterpart and to a much larger audience making them rake in the dough.

plastic being softer or harder has nothing to do with quality but it is a decision made

and having a real life model you want o replicate is harder than making something with the very freedom that no one cares if you make a 1:1 replica or not

and thinking you can use any pictures you find to print in a book without paying for them because they are not artwork just tells me you have no clue about copyright law

I wasn't talking about quality I was just correcting your point about the plastic being the same.

With regards to creating a new thing vs a replica, a replica might get panned for not being 100% accurate but there is no idea stage. You don't need to generate ideas and tests for designs and you don't need to worry about IP infringment. If I create Space Warrior models I need to think about where the influences come from and if it comes too close to things like Space Marines, Halo Spartans or the Gears of War soldiers.

If the artist has been dead for 70 years and has no estate tied to their work then it falls under fair use but it is advised that you check each time. I checked before I posted.

GW make and sell more minis than anyone else and the amount they make and sell continuously grows (I am led to believe). Doesn’t economics teach us that they more they sell the cheaper they should become over time?

This is why I genuinely believe GW do so much limited stock to keep the impression that supply is lower than demand justifying high prices.

Indomitus could have been for everyone but they chose to limit it

standard theory of economics does not work for luxury products
actually for luxury, the more you sell the more expensive it need to be to stay luxury and exclusive

 Gert wrote:
I wasn't talking about quality I was just correcting your point about the plastic being the same.

you were talking about GW having superior material (because of different hardness) hence they are more expensive

which is not true, the plastic is the same, different hardness is a choice not a sign of superior or inferior material

the price for the plastic has nothing to do with the higher price

You don't need to generate ideas and tests for designs and you don't need to worry about IP infringment

you still have to generate ides and make tests

there is no scanner available were you just drive to a museum, scan the tank and print a model that works for any scale

it is not even possible to take a 28mm model and just re-scale it and make a 15mm model from it
you need to re-design it from scratch with new ideas how to do things and test them

I don't know if you have ever sculpted or designed something, but it reads more like you are searching for excuses why GW must be more expensive other than "to want to have a bigger margin and people are willing to pay the price"

were the others need to be cheaper because there is much more competition out there

because there is no IP you need to defend, you are not able to ask for GW prices, because if you are too expensive someone else will do cheaper ones

the only reason why GW is so much more epxensive is because of their closed envoirnment of exclusive models+games no one else can do and people are willing to pay the high price to get into it

there is no hidden reason of superior material, more expensive designer etc.

Are GW products luxury products? they aren’t Ferrari’s but they aren’t bread and milk.

Well that depends on the person and local income. I Bahrain a cost of an avarge w40k is laughably low. Trying to play it in Bangladesh would clearly place it in the luxury area.

I think that from older threads, I remember, my hobby budget of 2 months is equal to what people seem to be spending weekly on w40k, on avarge.

mrFickle wrote:
Are GW products luxury products? they aren’t Ferrari’s but they aren’t bread and milk.

GW executives once said, they want to be what Porsche is for cars, so they are aiming for the "luxury brand" among toy soldiers

 kodos wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Are GW products luxury products? they aren’t Ferrari’s but they aren’t bread and milk.

GW executives once said, they want to be what Porsche is for cars, so they are aiming for the "luxury brand" among toy soldiers

Yeah but a Rolex has resale value, you buy a Porsche it's value will increase.

GW makes mass produced toy soldiers, they Arnt hand made by artisans but spin moulded plastic.

The way you grab hobbyists is when their young, but to do that it has to be affordable for kids and students.

By pricing everyone but fully employed people out you're shooting yourself in the foot.

you can sell GW models you bought 10 years ago for 50-70% MSRP and make profit, OOP GW models go for 150-200%

GW does not want to grow the wargaming community, they want to be the premium brand that everyone wants but not all can afford so that it is a privilege to play their games

with this they make sure that people stick with their games no matter how bad they are or what GW is doing as a company
because of the high buy-in and the high cost to stay, you make sure that people are not giving up fast because of their big investment

cheaper games die much more faster if small mistakes are made, simply because nothing of value is lost if you shelf your 50€ investment after 5 games, were putting a 1000€ investment on the shelf because GW messed up the new Codex hurts and you are much more likely to still play games with it