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ERJAK wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I am also in the 3d printing category but also buy one box per month of actual GW product be it a boxset (sometimes 3 or 4 a month is a cool box set like indomudus or beast snagga box) i think that is a better way to start a army if wanting to go pure out of GW models.
That said as mentioned you can do a custodes army for quite cheap and if willing to get some used models like contemptor dreadnaughts or land raiders off ebay and spray paint them gold they become even cheaper.

if willing to 3d print though depends on the printer, the highest detail printer small scale is ~$350 (phrozen sonic mini 4k) and resin ~$40 per kg for good high detail resin, with 2kg you could easily do a 2k point counts as army so that wins as far as price.

Provided you consider time+labor to be largely free. Cleaning and prepping even extremely high quality resin 3d prints for painting is far more arduous than cleaning a handful of moldlines and sprue burs.


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tneva82 wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
I tried buying second hand models and to be honest they tend be in a state requiring so much effort to get them looking good that it’s not worth the saving

That's the tradeoff

Myself been running into opposite issue. Can't find cheap 2nd handed. These days everything seems to get high price. And old models gets tagged OOP ULTRA RARE and price goes up the roof(boy did I get laugh when only copy of khamul the easterling on ebay I found was mounted+foot version for same price GW sells it + 2 other ringwraiths brand new...you REALLY have to love metal over finecast to pay that).

Certainly I pay attention to assembly+any damage. Paint job is whatever. It's easy enough to strip away as long as it's metal/plastic/FW resin(finecast is trickier).

It takes months of checking and rechecking to find anything that's reasonably priced that isn't totally destroyed in most secondhand markets. Especially ones with an auction feature. People buying Penitent engines missing half their parts and done up with Sherwin-Williams for more than retail because they either can't do math or have a gambling problem...

if you dial in the settings for supports they literally pop off at the connection without leaving a line. most of my prints are done single piece, I use a water washable resin and a wash and cure station. remove build plate from the printer, put in wash station full of water for 20 min, dump the water into another container to evaporate in the sun then peel off supports and cure for 20 min. straight to prime and paint from there.

I've been watching some vids on 3D printing the difference is massive between buying from gw and doing it yourself.

For example someone could print a warhound titan for £20.

And sure at this early stage it's still rough detail wise but the tech advances quickly it won't be long before you can match forgeworld for a fraction of what they charge.

And for smaller stuff resin printers are already able to do put out amazing quality.

a_typical_hero wrote:
The game is officially supporting 500, 1000 and 2000 points missions.

Nobody needs to start right away with a big investment to play the game. Get a SC or combat patrol box of your liking and go ham.

Doesn't really matter.
The deciding factor on how much you need is what's actually played in your meta.

I'm pretty sure you can ask other players to play different point sizes even if 2k is your local standard.

a_typical_hero wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Just because you can play doesn't mean it works. Gw games are unscalable. The super wonky system works somehow in one size. Change from that and it goes crazy

Anecdotal counter point: That is not my experience. We play a lot of <2000p (500 and 1000 mostly, sometimes 1500 thrown in) games at my local club lately and the tables haven't gone up in flames so far.

Agree, been playing a bunch of 500ish pt games on a 6x4 and 9th works fine

hobojebus wrote:
I've been watching some vids on 3D printing the difference is massive between buying from gw and doing it yourself.

For example someone could print a warhound titan for £20.

And sure at this early stage it's still rough detail wise but the tech advances quickly it won't be long before you can match forgeworld for a fraction of what they charge.

And for smaller stuff resin printers are already able to do put out amazing quality.

Yep, a modified resincast NDK costs a bit ovee 13$ when recast, and in my case, I wouldn't have to pay postal fees. Doesn't realy entice you to buy a 60$ one at the store.

hobojebus wrote:
I've been watching some vids on 3D printing the difference is massive between buying from gw and doing it yourself.

For example someone could print a warhound titan for £20.

And sure at this early stage it's still rough detail wise but the tech advances quickly it won't be long before you can match forgeworld for a fraction of what they charge.

And for smaller stuff resin printers are already able to do put out amazing quality.

there already are larger resin 3d printers that can print large scale models. you can run a phrozen mega 8k (have mine ordered not yet arrived) $1600 gets a build volume of 33 x 18.5 x 40 cm with pizels small enough (43 microns) that you can almost fit 4 pixels in the space of the thickness of the average human hair (75 microns).

for titans imperial knights vehicles etc though you can get away with a saturn, mighty 4k, or monoX (among others) in the ~500 range and get every bit the retail of forgeworld casts for less than the cost of the forgeworld model, and you get to customize as you with for your counts as as well

a_typical_hero wrote:
I'm pretty sure you can ask other players to play different point sizes even if 2k is your local standard.

Or see if someone else wants to do a tag-team, if it comes down to it.

I agree with the suggestion to stick to smaller game sizes. 1000pts has been the typical value I build forces to when I'm getting started; diving right into 2K is an awful lot of work and expense.

It is not easy to convince someone who bought a 2k pts army, to play different game sizes. First because they want to play with the stuff they have, second because their army may not be optimised for under 2000pts and if the units come in odd points chunks they may not even be able to field a 1000pts army.

Karol wrote:
It is not easy to convince someone who bought a 2k pts army, to play different game sizes. First because they want to play with the stuff they have, second because their army may not be optimised for under 2000pts and if the units come in odd points chunks they may not even be able to field a 1000pts army.

Have you not heard of random wargear upgrades?
Oh no, I'm only at 990pts! Guess I'll put melta bombs on everything.

Karol wrote:
It is not easy to convince someone who bought a 2k pts army, to play different game sizes. First because they want to play with the stuff they have, second because their army may not be optimised for under 2000pts and if the units come in odd points chunks they may not even be able to field a 1000pts army.

It's very easy if the person you are talking to is reasonable at all.

Knights can certainly be difficult to hit certain points limits with, but I'm not sure they're that expensive. My Chaos Knights army is 1,800 points, and at RRP would cost £320 (although I paid about £250 by not buying directly from GW).

hobojebus wrote:

And sure at this early stage it's still rough detail wise but the tech advances quickly it won't be long before you can match forgeworld for a fraction of what they charge.

Early stage? Rough detail? Well maybe I suppose - if you're only spending proverbial lunch $ on your set up....
Otherwise, news flash: We caught up to matching FW detail a few years ago.

It's useful to compare with other games. The Cadian Defence Force matches Bolt Action starter armies in both price and content, broadly. The CDF effectively swaps a couple of squads for a Chimera. Comes to about 500 points for 40k, or 1000 points for a BA army.

I know they're mostly 20 year old sculpts, but I like them. There's also a £40-50 discount on the individual boxes (at the time - the troops have had an extra sprue thrown in since the set was released).

The big difference is that 1 such set would be perfect for a game of Bolt Action, and 2 would be overkill for even big games - the expansion sets add one tank, one soft-skin transport and a command squad. In 40k, a 2000-point force would be 4 of those CDF box (no idea if it's even legal at that point). That's not including fancy troops at a price premium.

In BA, 20 troops is about £30, a tank is £20. You pay a premium for metal field guns and heavy weapons teams (machine gun, mortar).

Astra Militarum I feel are a bad example and they often get shafted with pricing more than other armies.
The recent Cadian upgrade is indicative of this IMO since now the box is £29 up from £18 for the same amount of models but more gubbins. It's not conducive to army building when the base troop unit that is dirt cheap and you need to spam costs nearly the same as a box of Space Marines.
However, I think the CDF is a good choice and can very easily be reworked to give more bang for your buck. From that box, I could easily make a Lord Commisar, Company Commander, 2 Platoon Commanders, a Tank Commander, 2 Infantry Squads, a Heavy Weapon Squad, a Chimera, and a Master of Ordnance. Is it optimised or competitive? Heck no but it is very easy to do and nabbing the SC box would make it quite a substantial force IMO. In fact the list I just made is just under the Crusade starting Power level.

Totally agree with you @Gert. I picked the CDF specifically for 1) the savings; 2) the flexibility; and 3) a fairly direct comparison with a different game in terms of playability.

The change in price for the Cadian troop box has kind of messed them up compared to Stargrave or Wargames Atlantic plastics, where a cheaper box will give you twice the models.

In a game like Bolt Action, where you have other factors like unit pinning to contend with, 20 troops, command, a few heavy weapons and 2 vehicles gives you a lot to do on the table.

Sorry - an aside from the main course of the thread.

 Gert wrote:

Have you not heard of random wargear upgrades?
Oh no, I'm only at 990pts! Guess I'll put melta bombs on everything.

I am talking about situations when if you try to take 1000pts , you end up with something like two troop choices and an HQ costing you something like 920-930. And there being nothing good in the codex or even nothing at all, that can fit in in 80pts. Or your stuff to work requiring a 700-800pts formation of models to work, where without taking it the how combination doesn't work at it makes no sense to run it at all. The whole play 1000pts only works for specific armies or for people with collections over 2000pts. Not all armies can downgrade 1000pts and still function efficiently.




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 Da Boss wrote:


It's very easy if the person you are talking to is reasonable at all.

Got it people wanting to play with their models, not wanting to buy extra models just so you can play, because you don't want or can't buy a regular size army is the unreasonable thing to do. And people just doing what ever you asked them to do is.

And that is before stuff time cost or fun them game is even added to the game. An elite army played at 1000pts may, just not be fun to play, specially when GW designed it to work only at more points.

 Gert wrote:
In fact the list I just made is just under the Crusade starting Power level.

which is the point, for the same price you get a starting army in 40k, or a full tournament ready army in BA
140€ MSRP
CDF: 25 Infantry, 1 Tank, 1 Transport, 3 heavy weapon teams, starter army
WW2 Rubicon+Perry (without a discount Box): 38 Infantry, 1 Tank, 1 Transport, 3 heavy weapon teams, 1 Artillery, full army for BA
GCPS Mega Army: 42 Infantry, 1 Tank, 1 Transport, 4 heavy weapon teams, 2 Walker, full army for WP Firefight

there are 2 problems coming together, first the CDF content is low for the price compared to similar boxes (if the models are better depends on personal taste, for me GCPS > Cadia), but this is GW. Second problem is that the content of the force is just a starter force and you need more to play the full game while with the other two you only need more if you want to have options

Karol wrote:
I am talking about situations when if you try to take 1000pts , you end up with something like two troop choices and an HQ costing you something like 920-930. And there being nothing good in the codex or even nothing at all, that can fit in in 80pts. Or your stuff to work requiring a 700-800pts formation of models to work, where without taking it the how combination doesn't work at it makes no sense to run it at all. The whole play 1000pts only works for specific armies or for people with collections over 2000pts. Not all armies can downgrade 1000pts and still function efficiently.

Just remodel your list. I guess you are using 2x10 Terminators and a GMNDK in your example. Switch the GM to a regular NDK, add a Librarian and you got 1000p spot on (going by current Wahapedia). Everybody has to make "sacrifices" to their list at lower point levels.

Karol wrote:
Got it people wanting to play with their models, not wanting to buy extra models just so you can play, because you don't want or can't buy a regular size army is the unreasonable thing to do. And people just doing what ever you asked them to do is.

And that is before stuff time cost or fun them game is even added to the game. An elite army played at 1000pts may, just not be fun to play, specially when GW designed it to work only at more points.

In a social game where both sides are supposed to have fun, coming to a consens is the reasonable thing to do. If you want to play your 2k points, bring a third guy to the game so the beginner can team up.

Racerguy180 wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Just because you can play doesn't mean it works. Gw games are unscalable. The super wonky system works somehow in one size. Change from that and it goes crazy

Anecdotal counter point: That is not my experience. We play a lot of <2000p (500 and 1000 mostly, sometimes 1500 thrown in) games at my local club lately and the tables haven't gone up in flames so far.

Agree, been playing a bunch of 500ish pt games on a 6x4 and 9th works fine

I sometimes play 1500 points games, a format that according to GW shouldn't even have proper missions. And yet it feels much more balanced than the 2000 points one. It's basically 2000 with the "caveat" that players have to make actual decisions in listbuilding and some of the OP stuff can't find place in the list. Tables are also the same size of 2000 points but with actual space to maneuver and movement does matter.

1000 points is much more standard and it's also a very good format that works quite well.

a_typical_hero 800263 11197762 wrote:
Just remodel your list. I guess you are using 2x10 Terminators and a GMNDK in your example. Switch the GM to a regular NDK, add a Librarian and you got 1000p spot on (going by current Wahapedia). Everybody has to make "sacrifices" to their list at lower point levels.

But other armies are more efficient. Why Would I or anyone else want to play at a point level where my army is less fun to play with? I mean maybe there are armies that work better at 1000pts, then at 2000pts. But why should anyone who does not play exactly those armies and those builds care? It is litterally having less fun yourself, in order for others to have fun. And I gues if someone has a fun army to play with or multiple armies, they don't care as much, but if you have one or not really having as much fun as you may have wanted to, you will just not do it. Plus it requires to rebuild armies, rewrite lists and people don't like that. It is like in sports when some orgenises an event and decides that throws are not going to be allowed. Some people or school just skip events like that, specially as they don't help you get better at the real events.

a_typical_hero 800263 11197762 wrote:
In a social game where both sides are supposed to have fun, coming to a consens is the reasonable thing to do. If you want to play your 2k points, bring a third guy to the game so the beginner can team up.

Yes and in those moments when there are two people playing at your store this may work. But in a situation when the stores consist of 20-30 people with 2000pts players and one or two new people who don't have 2000pts, the chance of the majority adjusting to the minority is zero. Unless some wierd stuff happens. Like the son of local even orgeniser says he wants to play 1250. well if you want to play at the store ever again you are going to play 1250pts with him.

I don't think the comparison between 40k and BA is fair. 40k models use different materials (superior plastic IMO) and companies like Warlord and Rubicon can afford to be cheap with their products because there's no design team working to create original models. The Warlord team can literally just hop on a train to Bovington and go look at real life examples of the products they're making. There is also a lot of interchangeability in GW ranges where 40k and AoS parts can be exchanged or added with minimal fuss.
GW is expensive yes but it's still very easy to find cheap ways to get models. I know at least one Indy store owner who says there's no point in stocking Warlord products because they've made it so cheap to go direct to them.

As a side note, leave Karol to be angry. There is literally no reason to have a discussion with them as they are incapable of understanding other viewpoints.

Karol only deals in absolutes.

It either is wiping the floor with opponent or its useless.

The fact that Bolt Action is working with real things puts other pressures on the models; you can't just make stuff up to suit like GW can. There's also pressure to get it right. No one is going to cry foul because a Leman Russ has 6 rivets instead of 7 along that seam.
It's also not like GW is working on razor thin margins, their profits are incredibly high.

 Gert wrote:
I don't think the comparison between 40k and BA is fair. 40k models use different materials (superior plastic IMO) and companies like Warlord and Rubicon can afford to be cheap with their products because there's no design team working to create original models.

this is bs

the plastic is the same for everyone and also Warlord and Rubicon need models designers to make models from artworks or pictures
making an original model is not more work than making a historical accurate one

it is easier and need less work to make an new Primaris Lieutenant for another chapter or making new versions of old models than creating a new historical plastic army

it is not like that you just take the picture of a WW2 tank give it to the mold maker and 6 months later you get a container full of plastic models
you might not need to pay someone to create the artwork, yet you have to pay someone doing the research to get the already available ones together

@kodos, good point about Mantic - I had forgotten about Warpath. Definitely my bad.

Karol wrote:

a_typical_hero 800263 11197762 wrote:
Just remodel your list. I guess you are using 2x10 Terminators and a GMNDK in your example. Switch the GM to a regular NDK, add a Librarian and you got 1000p spot on (going by current Wahapedia). Everybody has to make "sacrifices" to their list at lower point levels.

But other armies are more efficient. Why Would I or anyone else want to play at a point level where my army is less fun to play with? I mean maybe there are armies that work better at 1000pts, then at 2000pts. But why should anyone who does not play exactly those armies and those builds care? It is litterally having less fun yourself, in order for others to have fun. And I gues if someone has a fun army to play with or multiple armies, they don't care as much, but if you have one or not really having as much fun as you may have wanted to, you will just not do it. Plus it requires to rebuild armies, rewrite lists and people don't like that. It is like in sports when some orgenises an event and decides that throws are not going to be allowed. Some people or school just skip events like that, specially as they don't help you get better at the real events.

Believe it or not, some of us *don't* play in an environment where the attitude is "Sorry new guy, you MUST collect a 2000 point army before we will grudgingly play with you - and you'd better have brought your A game because I'm about to tear you a new arsehole and stuff a metal dreadnaught up it"

If playing Warhammer is only fun because you have a perfectly tailored list to beat people with, and any change away from that is 'less fun', then that's a terrible approach to tabletop gaming and life in general.

I buy a mix of direct from GW, online stores with discount, and second hand. All depends on what I'm looking for, and how quickly I want it. I don't buy a lot from GW (these days it's mostly just paints, books and Underworlds Warbands), so I'm not too fussed if I'm saving a couple of bucks buying from here or there.

For me, I do like to buy mostly at my local warhammer store. It's not due a loyalty to GW in particular, but (pre pandemic), was the place I played the most, and I think if you're going to play at a store (whatever it is), it behooves you to support the store by buying stuff there. I want the place to continue being there.

If you just buy everything online, or 3d print and use a stores space for gaming, it's a bit of a parasitic attitude to have. If you just play at home, then do whatever you want.

When I do build an army though, it's over the course of a long time. Maybe a single purchase a month. Folks in my community mostly play 2k, but everyone is happy playing any size.

 kodos wrote:
the plastic is the same for everyone and also Warlord and Rubicon need models designers to make models from artworks or pictures
making an original model is not more work than making a historical accurate one

The plastic isn't the same. Have you built any Warlord or Rubicon kits? It's much harder than GW plastic which can be sculpted with relevant ease.
As for designing, when you have easy access to hundreds of images, documents on the thing you are making a model out of or can even view them in real life, like a Sherman or Pz.IV, it takes much less time to produce a render or scale model. I'm not saying it's a process any mook with a computer can do but designing from scratch is much harder than designing from a real-world object.

it is easier and need less work to make an new Primaris Lieutenant for another chapter or making new versions of old models than creating a new historical plastic army

Bit of a false equivalence there. 1 model vs an army.

it is not like that you just take the picture of a WW2 tank give it to the mold maker and 6 months later you get a container full of plastic models

If I asked you to make me a decent model of a Sherman and a decent model of an entirely new concept, something like Kharadron Overlords, what would take less time? There's no idea stage for the Sherman because it already exists and at no point do you have to worry about taking ideas from another person's design because IP laws don't cover historical settings or things.

you might not need to pay someone to create the artwork, yet you have to pay someone doing the research to get the already available ones together

In the BA USA army book, there are 20 pieces of drawn/painted art all of which come from books by Osprey Publishing who prints the BA books. The vast majority of images are of BA models and even 2 pictures of an actual M1 Garand and Thompson SMG. For other historical settings the publisher can use actual art depicting events portrayed because once again, IP laws can't prevent this in many cases.
Compare that to a 40k Codex where every single piece of art has to be original because 40k is a fictional setting. No freebies for pictures of Boltguns because they don't exist. No using pictures or art depicting events because they don't exist (as in a piece of art depicting something like the Battle of Trafalgar or the Charge of the Light Brigade).

Just because GW's plastic is better doesnt mean they spend more money on it than their "competitors". They most likely get away with spending less per model in production and then sell it with a higher price as well for a much better profit margin.

GW models have gone up in detail over the years, that is true. But their production costs haven't increased at the same pace. A very detailed plastic model today should be cheaper for them to make than their old counterpart and to a much larger audience making them rake in the dough.