Greetings folks,

As the title asks: do YOU think there will ever be another iteration of the old "Epic 40k" game? If not in name, at least in the SPIRIT of epic-style conflicts more analogous to an actual battle (as opposed to the weird pseudo-skirmish size of most 40k games).

What do you think? Will we be forever deprived? Will it arrive this Christmas? NEXT Christmas?

It's certainly not inconceivable as Specialist Games have been very careful to future-proof aspects of AT/AI, enforce a consistent scale, etc. That being said I'm not expecting it to happen. If it ever does, it won't be anytime soon - their energies are mostly concentrated elsewhere.

We just had one, the latest Apocalypse is ruleswise in the same family as various Epics before it.

Titans and aircraft are being covered by GW as of now, so it's not entirely unthinkable they'd do tanks and infantry as well at some point. Not for years, anyway, SG team has been pretty clear on this.

Gosh I hope so. Best gw game ever imho. Wish I could have played it more when it was around…

Nope.

Probably not. I'd love to see them mine it for mechanics in 40k as the skirmish game continues to increase in model count.

Magic 8 ball says: ask again later

anyone can have any epic miniatures they want for a micro-fraction of what it costs to build a 40k army.

3d printer and you could probably make 3 epic armies with a single half-liter of resin.

Given GW's usual approach to these things I'm expecting there'll be one release and then a long, slow trickle of more stuff, and the game will get cancelled long before there are enough models out to actually play it because GW will ascribe the low sales figures to people not wanting the game rather than to them not having enough models to play the lists they want.

I would love it to make a comeback, and we already have Titans and aircraft so we’re part of the way there.

With the rumours that support for Adeptus Titanicus is ending next year I won’t be holding my breath though. If AT is not popular enough to keep supporting I don’t see why GW would want to release Epic 40K.

Yes, I believe there will be someday.

That day is certainly not this Christmas nor next though.

If they were to come out with something Epic-esque, I'd hope that it wouldn't be a miniatures games. Either make all the units cardboard chips or make it a video game. I don't think I'd be keen to spend money on an army I already have but at a different scale.

I think it is unlikely.

GW's focus isn't on the gameplay anymore, it's on the spectacle and grandeur of the models. Epic-scale infantry is too small to give it that "wow" detail like their larger showpieces.

We *might* see a game or multiple games that focus on the vehicles, ala AI or AT that may have an occasional stand of infantry, but nothing that will have swathes of 8/6mm infantry figures, simply because they will look poor.

It's not wow on individual model but as an army it's bigger wow. You want wow on fantasy armies, you go for 6mm

Epic Armageddon is basically the best version of 40k.

I almost hope they don't release one.

Vanguard miniatures also has a great selection, coupled with AT and AI, you have all the minis you really need.

I personally think a big part of the barrier for Epic is painting the models, some of them must be so difficult.

On the flip side though, contrast paint would make Nids a breeze to do.

They'll do something similar eventually.

Just a question of how long it takes to work their way that far down the nostalgia list.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
They'll do something similar eventually.

Just a question of how long it takes to work their way that far down the nostalgia list.

THIS

GW has always dipped into its past for inspiration. Just a matter of time

leerm02 wrote:

Greetings folks,

As the title asks: do YOU think there will ever be another iteration of the old "Epic 40k" game? If not in name, at least in the SPIRIT of epic-style conflicts more analogous to an actual battle (as opposed to the weird pseudo-skirmish size of most 40k games).

What do you think? Will we be forever deprived? Will it arrive this Christmas? NEXT Christmas?

The beta will come out late March 2026 and models and final rules will be released digitally for the GW 3d printer early December 2026. It'll receive critical acclaim but it won't become a staple despite it's relative balance due to dumbed down rules and a focus on a mechanic that stop getting developed after the first expansion pack released late January 2027. GW will go back to focussing on Warhammer Old World as their main cash cow after Epic Returns turns out to be a long-term flop for a few years before they restore their 40k factories from the fires.

I think 3D printing is killing the chance of re-release. It is just too easy and cheap now to print epic stuff.

Epic already has a pretty healthy community and rules are freely available. Its pretty easy to pick up and get started (at least with some of the factions).

I'm not really convinced that a GW reboot would improve anything. They would probably cluster the game full of strategems and such. They would most certainly rescale the minis in an attempt to make 3rd party minis and old collections obsolete, and thereby split the fans in two camps again. I think the game would remain more fresh if it is kept in the hands of the community.

Epic and Warmaster are both experiencing a sort of DIY renaissance right now thanks to 3d printing. Do some poking around on instagram, there's a ton of amazing stuff out there for very cheap.

El Torro wrote:
I would love it to make a comeback, and we already have Titans and aircraft so we’re part of the way there.

With the rumours that support for Adeptus Titanicus is ending next year I won’t be holding my breath though. If AT is not popular enough to keep supporting I don’t see why GW would want to release Epic 40K.

AT came way too late. Besides my itch for big stompy robots was scratched by IK from 40K. Anybody wanting to play Epic should try Drop fleet Commander.

The original Epic Hierophant bio-titan is one of my fave models of all time. Even though Forgeworld is hideously expensive, if their hierophant looked anything like the epic model, I would have found a way to pay for one.

Unfortunately, FW chose to sculpt something that looks like a cross between a slug and a daddy long legs...

Maybe that's a good thing. More money for other stuff.

I doubt we'll see anything, ever. It would be a significant investment to create the large line of models Epic would require. One I do not think GW is willing to make.

It's likely that 3D printing has killed any chance of Epic's return. There's a fairly healthy community of Epic Armageddon players who have had decades to create models for the game, most of which are now churned out with 3D printers because it's fast and easy. 3D printers do really well with the smaller scale.

 Strg Alt wrote:

AT came way too late. Besides my itch for big stompy robots was scratched by IK from 40K.

Yep, this. Ultimately conceptually Epic is just 40K in a different scale. I feel Battlefleet Gothic would have been far more interesting to bring back, as that is something far more different.

 Crimson wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

AT came way too late. Besides my itch for big stompy robots was scratched by IK from 40K.

Yep, this. Ultimately conceptually Epic is just 40K in a different scale. I feel Battlefleet Gothic would have been far more interesting to bring back, as that is something far more different.

I think of all specialist games BFG is probably the one most people would like to see return and I find it much more likely than Epic. GW just doesn't do anything smaller than 28/32mm anymore, they had Warmaster, Epic and Battle of 5 armies and I find all of them unlikely to return. I'd say the only reason BFG is not announced yet is because it'd need quite a lot of ressources, more so than AT or AI.

If you want to play Epic rules I feel the current Apoc rules are close enough and I doubt GW will do more along these lines.

Maybe.

I'd prefer an Epic scale WHFB though - that'd be truly epic!

 Kcalehc wrote:
Maybe.

I'd prefer an Epic scale WHFB though - that'd be truly epic!

Warmaster is undergoing a resurrection in the community right now, as previously mentioned. Good system, too.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Anybody wanting to play Epic should try Drop fleet Commander.

Why? Part of the draw of Epic is playing with the Titans. Last I checked there was nothing of the sort in Drop Fleet. Besides, didn't they split that game in two? Fleet being all spaceships ala BFG & Drop Zone Commander being the tanks & stuff (still no Titans).

I'll echo what others have said.

Epic doesn't need to come back because it already exists. NetEpic Gold and NetEpic Armageddon are perfectly functional rules that are still being tweaked. The same goes for Warmaster with Warmaster: Revolution.

You can find plenty of proxy models out there, and as 3D printers and printing services become more affordable there's going to be even more options.

If there are any obstacles, it's the all-in-one attitude that GW drills into its costumer base. Do a little digital legwork and you'll find (practically) endless options.

ccs wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Anybody wanting to play Epic should try Drop fleet Commander.

Why? Part of the draw of Epic is playing with the Titans. Last I checked there was nothing of the sort in Drop Fleet. Besides, didn't they split that game in two? Fleet being all spaceships ala BFG & Drop Zone Commander being the tanks & stuff (still no Titans).

Dropfleet and Dropzone are two separate games and always have been, there was no "split". Thats like saying that BFG was split from Epic.

Dropzone has fairly large units that would be comparable in size to a Reaver or a Warbringer titan, and they have even larger units that would be Warlord or Warmaster size (potentially larger) coming soon in the form of Behemoths.

Why? Because Dropfleet is alive and Epic discontinued.

chaos0xomega wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Anybody wanting to play Epic should try Drop fleet Commander.

Why? Part of the draw of Epic is playing with the Titans. Last I checked there was nothing of the sort in Drop Fleet. Besides, didn't they split that game in two? Fleet being all spaceships ala BFG & Drop Zone Commander being the tanks & stuff (still no Titans).

Dropfleet and Dropzone are two separate games and always have been, there was no "split". Thats like saying that BFG was split from Epic.

Dropzone has fairly large units that would be comparable in size to a Reaver or a Warbringer titan, and they have even larger units that would be Warlord or Warmaster size (potentially larger) coming soon in the form of Behemoths.

So my basic point stands? If you want something Titan-like you don't want to play Drop Fleet.

 Crimson wrote:
I feel Battlefleet Gothic would have been far more interesting to bring back, as that is something far more different.

I think this is where GW should head as well.

Epic had its time, and the last big push GW gave it caused it to fall flat on its face (Epic Armageddon made it better, but by then the damage was long done).

I would like it if some Epic units made the transition to 40k, specifically the Tyranid Dactylis and Malefactor. They gave me my precious Exocrine finally, but still waiting on that Dactylis.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Why? Because Dropfleet is alive and Epic discontinued.

Epic is very much alive and doing well. There are active forums, Discord and Facebook groups with thousands of participants as well as a healthy tournament circuit in UK, France, Australia and Canada at least. There are multiple constantly developed variants like EpicUK, EpicAU, NetEpic Gold and Palladium and so on, as well as entirely new projects like Imperius Dominatus. I've been playing E: Armageddon actively for some time here in Finland while never encountering Dropfleet beyond some acquintances' painting projects.

Getting armies is trivially easy, be it old GW stuff from flea markets, 3D printing or the thriving third party environment with names like Vanguard, Trolls and Onslaught offering broad ranges of compatible miniatures.

 Sherrypie wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Why? Because Dropfleet is alive and Epic discontinued.

Epic is very much alive and doing well. There are active forums, Discord and Facebook groups with thousands of participants as well as a healthy tournament circuit in UK, France, Australia and Canada at least. There are multiple constantly developed variants like EpicUK, EpicAU, NetEpic Gold and Palladium and so on, as well as entirely new projects like Imperius Dominatus. I've been playing E: Armageddon actively for some time here in Finland while never encountering Dropfleet beyond some acquintances' painting projects.

Getting armies is trivially easy, be it old GW stuff from flea markets, 3D printing or the thriving third party environment with names like Vanguard, Trolls and Onslaught offering broad ranges of compatible miniatures.

"Getting minis is easy. "

No, it's not. Good luck with the flea markets and the vast majority of new players won't buy a resin printer to be able to play a game.

I am seriously considering Dropzone Commander. GW dropped the ball with Epic like they did with BB in the past.

Must’ve dreamt all those 3rd party Epic minis then…

Silly me.

Yes, yes it is. You don't need a printer yourself when printing services and other hobbyists exist nor do you even have to go that route, as third parties exist. Have a look at Vanguard Miniatures 6 mm ranges, for example. Excellent metal casts, no further than normal online purchase away. Heck, Titanicus and Aeronautica models can provide you an army if you want pure GW stuff.

Epic communities are thriving. If your gaming doesn't need official stamps of officialness to get played, it's easy to get full armies in your hands. Just like Blood Bowl: games so good they always had players despite GW dropping them.

Speaking of, who carries plastic epic-style bases?

Vanguard miniatures, for one!

Just had a look at Vanguard minis page. Apart from Tau pics in 6mm and a few bits of other 6mm stuff there wasn't anything presented. Like on a flea market.

My decision still stands. Should I ever go back to Epic it will be by playing DFC. A few months ago I saw a couple of battle reports on youtube. Nice game and the rules weren't so disappointing like the stuff GW churns out today.

There's also Onslaught minis. I think you need to go into the shop. Vanguard has two different types of bases too...(I'm buying some!)

ccs wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Anybody wanting to play Epic should try Drop fleet Commander.

Why? Part of the draw of Epic is playing with the Titans. Last I checked there was nothing of the sort in Drop Fleet. Besides, didn't they split that game in two? Fleet being all spaceships ala BFG & Drop Zone Commander being the tanks & stuff (still no Titans).

Dropfleet and Dropzone are two separate games and always have been, there was no "split". Thats like saying that BFG was split from Epic.

Dropzone has fairly large units that would be comparable in size to a Reaver or a Warbringer titan, and they have even larger units that would be Warlord or Warmaster size (potentially larger) coming soon in the form of Behemoths.

So my basic point stands? If you want something Titan-like you don't want to play Drop Fleet.

Its pretty frickin' obvious that whoever made the suggestion meant Dropzone Commander rather than Dropfleet Commander.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Just had a look at Vanguard minis page. Apart from Tau pics in 6mm and a few bits of other 6mm stuff there wasn't anything presented. Like on a flea market.

My decision still stands. Should I ever go back to Epic it will be by playing DFC. A few months ago I saw a couple of battle reports on youtube. Nice game and the rules weren't so disappointing like the stuff GW churns out today.

Are you looking at the same vanguard as me? Go to their subcategory "defeat in detail" for loads of epic stuff. Mainly Marines, chaos, eldar and orks.

I had no idea they even have tau stuff, where did you find that?

Gitdakka wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Just had a look at Vanguard minis page. Apart from Tau pics in 6mm and a few bits of other 6mm stuff there wasn't anything presented. Like on a flea market.

My decision still stands. Should I ever go back to Epic it will be by playing DFC. A few months ago I saw a couple of battle reports on youtube. Nice game and the rules weren't so disappointing like the stuff GW churns out today.

Are you looking at the same vanguard as me? Go to their subcategory "defeat in detail" for loads of epic stuff. Mainly Marines, chaos, eldar and orks.

I had no idea they even have tau stuff, where did you find that?

They don't. It's Onslaught minis that do the not-Tau.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Just had a look at Vanguard minis page. Apart from Tau pics in 6mm and a few bits of other 6mm stuff there wasn't anything presented. Like on a flea market.

My decision still stands. Should I ever go back to Epic it will be by playing DFC. A few months ago I saw a couple of battle reports on youtube. Nice game and the rules weren't so disappointing like the stuff GW churns out today.

https://vanguardminiatures.co.uk/product-category/defeat-in-detail-6mm/

Extensive ranges for Mechanicus, Marines, Guard, Orks, Eldar, Chaos, Sisters, now starting with Necrons as well... and that's just one supplier.

I mean, you can for some reason clam up and refuse reality, while I and many others have multiple large armies already (including hundreds of flea market miniatures, yes). Don't know why you'd do that, but sure. DFC might be a nice game and all, but that doesn't have anything to do with you being utterly wrong on the model front.

No way will they bother remaking Epic again. Bigger models is their current schtick, not smaller.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sherrypie wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:
Maybe.

I'd prefer an Epic scale WHFB though - that'd be truly epic!

Warmaster is undergoing a resurrection in the community right now, as previously mentioned. Good system, too.

I’d question a widespread ‘resurrection’. I’ve never seen anyone play that game ever, and I was around for the original. If you mean bored people with 3D printers are cranking out 15mm sculpts then that’s different. More a niche interest than a resurrection.

Tau on Vanguard:

https://vanguardminiatures.co.uk/gallery/onslaught-gallery/

 JohnnyHell wrote:
No way will they bother remaking Epic again. Bigger models is their current schtick, not smaller.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sherrypie wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:
Maybe.

I'd prefer an Epic scale WHFB though - that'd be truly epic!

Warmaster is undergoing a resurrection in the community right now, as previously mentioned. Good system, too.

I’d question a widespread ‘resurrection’. I’ve never seen anyone play that game ever, and I was around for the original. If you mean bored people with 3D printers are cranking out 15mm sculpts then that’s different. More a niche interest than a resurrection.

Warmaster: Revolution sees active play at my local club, has plenty of activity in the small scale communities online and has enough interest to produce physical books. Not saying it's wobbling any top 5 lists any time soon, but it's certainly lively right now compared to the previous two decades.

From a narrative campaign standpoint, I'd love BFG to return. Coordinating Kill Team and 40k games on the surface with orbital bombardments, invasions and blockades would be killer cool. We always did this back in the day, and it was pretty sweet.

Don't get me wrong- I like Epic too; the fact that Aeronautica and Titanicus are the same scale... It just makes sense that those models COULD be combined into a single game.

If Epic happens again I think by far the most likely route will be for it to be a Heresy branded game with broadly the same space marine models used by both sides, just like the original. Siege of Terra makes a great narrative starting point for Epic, and the nostalgia element will have a big draw among HH/AT players in general.

No.
why? 3D printers and a strong fan community.

The old rules still exists and are tweaked by its fan community. 3D proxys are readily avalible, either as a made product or files. When BFG manage to rebirth itself with the use of 3D printers and a dedicated fan community whitout the help of GW, epic can too.

plus, the way GW handles rules these days, i rather NOT want a new BFG made by them. The fact that AT18 core rules are good i consider a fluke, rather then a success.

JohnnyHell wrote:No way will they bother remaking Epic again. Bigger models is their current schtick, not smaller.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sherrypie wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:
Maybe.

I'd prefer an Epic scale WHFB though - that'd be truly epic!

Warmaster is undergoing a resurrection in the community right now, as previously mentioned. Good system, too.

I’d question a widespread ‘resurrection’. I’ve never seen anyone play that game ever, and I was around for the original. If you mean bored people with 3D printers are cranking out 15mm sculpts then that’s different. More a niche interest than a resurrection.

You'll never get them to see the light. When Warmaster was killed at retail and shuffled off to Specialist Games and mail order only it had been out for 6 months. It's still the fastest "Release to Hospice care" game in GW's history. A few people online don't make a renaissance. If that was the case, 6th Ed. WFB is having far more of a renaissance.


I doubt GW would try it. Part of the reason Epic carried on for so long was that it offered a TON of stuff that you couldn't get in 40K proper with the exception of old Armorcast stuff and later Forgeworld. Warmaster was basically Shrinkydinks WFB with a wonkier rule system, it didn't give a unique enough experience to justify all the work that would be involved to scale terrain and entire armies for the experience. With Apocalypse's release and subsequent absorption into 40K proper there isn't really anything Epic has to offer that's different other than wonkier rules and scaling down all your terrain.

Epic 40K is a cautionary tale in edition change. The 1997 release salted the earth for existing players while not offering enough for newer ones. While the game mechanics were laudable, the game deliberately stripped out the flavour of the previous editions. It was DOA.

As a micro-armour player I liked the scale of Epic and have plenty of armies, but getting players was a problem. I am happy for those who keep it alive through various means, but I would be very surprised to see GW bring it back. It would need a wide range of SKUs to be viable and I just don't see the interest.

 Just Tony wrote:
It's still the fastest "Release to Hospice care" game in GW's history. A few people online don't make a renaissance. If that was the case, 6th Ed. WFB is having far more of a renaissance.

Do we count what GW did with Dark Heresy as faster?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
It's still the fastest "Release to Hospice care" game in GW's history. A few people online don't make a renaissance. If that was the case, 6th Ed. WFB is having far more of a renaissance.

Do we count what GW did with Dark Heresy as faster?

I don't know. I would rather drive a 16 penny nail through my own scrotum than ever actively learn anything about any role playing game. Ever.

That's... an extreme (and some might way unwarranted) reaction.

Although indeed very fringe, warmaster is not going away despite GWs best efforts. It is fairly cheap to get multiple armies for warmaster, which allows you to easily rope friends in. It is one of my favourite rule sets by GW and I play it often.

6th edition WHFB is also hanging around. AoS 3 has some severe structural issues which need to be addressed (terribly non-existent terrain rules). But it is on a decent path in comparison to whatever 40K is these days.

For the vision of mass battles GW loves to sell, 10mm is a much better scale than 28mm. I consider 40K to be flat out unplayable at 28mm these days, with the ridiculous base sizes, small tables and incredibly boring plodding shooting phases where players run through their endless lists of ranged weapons that shoot the length of the table. The game is a total disaster.

Epic 40K is from a time when GW was more heavily influenced by serious war games rules writing. It had some problems, a bit half baked. But lots of potential. Would love to see a fleshed out model range for the game. But will never happen. It would be too cost effective for the consumer.

Thankfully 3D printing will only become cheaper and easier and these great ideas will continue to be supported by amateur hobbyists. Both warmaster and 40K had nuggets of gold in them that deserved more polish.

There's also Epicalypse: Play using the Apocalypse rules, using Epic Scale figures, and replacing inches with cm.
If you're wanting something with the more modern units of 40k, this is a solid bet. There's even a group doing Datasheets for the new units GW has brought out since Apocalypse dropped.
The idea of having more room to manuver on a regular size table is what really drew me in.

I've been building up an army using adeptus titanicus and aeronautica models, and I'm looking into some infantry now. Might also do some Eldar using Wraithguard conversions as Wraithknights and so on.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That's... an extreme (and some might way unwarranted) reaction.

But accurate. And you could add some clarity about what you referenced. Was this RPG actively shut down with new releases after 6 months? Well, less that 6 months? If so, it has the record.

Irdiumstern wrote:
There's also Epicalypse: Play using the Apocalypse rules, using Epic Scale figures, and replacing inches with cm.
If you're wanting something with the more modern units of 40k, this is a solid bet. There's even a group doing Datasheets for the new units GW has brought out since Apocalypse dropped.

Because Epic is better with CPs and cards

The_Real_Chris wrote:

Irdiumstern wrote:
There's also Epicalypse: Play using the Apocalypse rules, using Epic Scale figures, and replacing inches with cm.
If you're wanting something with the more modern units of 40k, this is a solid bet. There's even a group doing Datasheets for the new units GW has brought out since Apocalypse dropped.

Because Epic is better with CPs and cards

Less cards than you'd have playing NetEpic or any other variant of the SM / 2. edition lineage

It's mostly up to taste on which scale you want the game to operate at. 40k for squad level, Apocalypse works nicely on company level, Epic Armageddon on battallion level, 2. ed Epic and Epic40k a step above that with their further abstractions.

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
Although indeed very fringe, warmaster is not going away despite GWs best efforts. It is fairly cheap to get multiple armies for warmaster, which allows you to easily rope friends in. It is one of my favourite rule sets by GW and I play it often.

Warmaster is in fact GWs much successful rules system in terms of numbers of settings and implementations. Mechanically its probably the best they have done in terms of concept and execution, though AT, EpicA and Bloodbowl are also good (even if Bloodbowl is showing its age, its interesting how league implementations of BlitzBowl compete with it). My favourite version is Blitkrieg commander, though cold war commander is also good.

Epic 40K is from a time when GW was more heavily influenced by serious war games rules writing. It had some problems, a bit half baked. But lots of potential. Would love to see a fleshed out model range for the game. But will never happen. It would be too cost effective for the consumer.

The game system got a second and much more loved lease of life when it was used as the basis for BFG. But yes - if you think an Epic army is 50-100 elements (bases, tanks, etc.) to get the price point GW likes for army buy in the price per ounce gets a bit silly...

I think the EpicA implementation is the best so far if you like infantry and armour, though has problems doing justice to Titans. There are some good tweaks you can make and some interesting stuff that would need a fair bit of playtesting and balancing that has been knocked around over the years, but with the game no longer having a central development point you can no longer do that without fragmenting whoever is left player base wise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sherrypie wrote:


Less cards than you'd have playing NetEpic or any other variant of the SM / 2. edition lineage

It's mostly up to taste on which scale you want the game to operate at. 40k for squad level, Apocalypse works nicely on company level, Epic Armageddon on battallion level, 2. ed Epic and Epic40k a step above that with their further abstractions.

Well those cards weren't actually part of the gameplay, they were the ready reference system for army creation and rules reference. Everything could have been on paper but it was clearer to use cards. 40k/Apoc use CPs and cards to introduce a tactical layer you don't otherwise have in the game due to the constrained playspace and other rule interactions. There are also in Apoc and 40k design decisions that purely exist for model reasons that the designers were instructed to include (you too can decide on whether of not to have a heavy stubber on your tank and actually have this have an in game effect!) to engage people with modelling for the game. I really wanted to like it, but stuff like my Chimera being as tough as my Leman Russ (outside cards) and having to worry about the lasgun array just made me want to play EpicA instead.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Sherrypie wrote:


Less cards than you'd have playing NetEpic or any other variant of the SM / 2. edition lineage

It's mostly up to taste on which scale you want the game to operate at. 40k for squad level, Apocalypse works nicely on company level, Epic Armageddon on battallion level, 2. ed Epic and Epic40k a step above that with their further abstractions.

Well those cards weren't actually part of the gameplay, they were the ready reference system for army creation and rules reference. Everything could have been on paper but it was clearer to use cards. 40k/Apoc use CPs and cards to introduce a tactical layer you don't otherwise have in the game due to the constrained playspace and other rule interactions. There are also in Apoc and 40k design decisions that purely exist for model reasons that the designers were instructed to include (you too can decide on whether of not to have a heavy stubber on your tank and actually have this have an in game effect!) to engage people with modelling for the game. I really wanted to like it, but stuff like my Chimera being as tough as my Leman Russ (outside cards) and having to worry about the lasgun array just made me want to play EpicA instead.

I know, but still, the amount of cardboard in pre-2000's GW games was sometimes quite hilarious. Apoc's cards are one of those things that are pretty simple to adjust on the players' preference without impacting the base game too much, and even unchanged, are still limited in number and effect unlike the 40k stratagems, which can often feel quite "gotcha" as they appear out of thin air. I'm not disputing that EpicA is by far the superior game of the two, but does also require a bit more thought put into it.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Epic 40K is a cautionary tale in edition change. The 1997 release salted the earth for existing players while not offering enough for newer ones. While the game mechanics were laudable, the game deliberately stripped out the flavour of the previous editions. It was DOA.

As a micro-armour player I liked the scale of Epic and have plenty of armies, but getting players was a problem. I am happy for those who keep it alive through various means, but I would be very surprised to see GW bring it back. It would need a wide range of SKUs to be viable and I just don't see the interest.

What made Epic 40K DOA was the stupid decision to reduce the amount of models the army box sets had, think they went down to 2 sprues... while increasing the price. It meant that Epic 40K was just too expensive to get into. The army box sets previously had I think 8 sprues if not more.

It was GW showing their greed.

Shame as Epic 40K is one of the best versions of Epic GW have ever made.

That said I strongly doubt that GW will ever do Epic again sadly.

 stonehorse wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Epic 40K is a cautionary tale in edition change. The 1997 release salted the earth for existing players while not offering enough for newer ones. While the game mechanics were laudable, the game deliberately stripped out the flavour of the previous editions. It was DOA.

As a micro-armour player I liked the scale of Epic and have plenty of armies, but getting players was a problem. I am happy for those who keep it alive through various means, but I would be very surprised to see GW bring it back. It would need a wide range of SKUs to be viable and I just don't see the interest.

What made Epic 40K DOA was the stupid decision to reduce the amount of models the army box sets had, think they went down to 2 sprues... while increasing the price. It meant that Epic 40K was just too expensive to get into. The army box sets previously had I think 8 sprues if not more.

It was GW showing their greed.

Shame as Epic 40K is one of the best versions of Epic GW have ever made.

That said I strongly doubt that GW will ever do Epic again sadly.

Correct. It was also mind-boggling why they would change the base form of infantry. Seemed to me as a nudge to old Epic players like me:
"Hey dude, we don't want you here."

So I never spent a dime and focused on 40K and WHFB instead.

They basically convinced people they can play epic sized games using 40k models, why would they ever go back to Epic scale?

As for Epic, Warmaster etc being "alive", they're as much alive as other long OOP games that happen to have enough fans to produce 3rd party models- those in the know have a steady source of models and online contacts to support a playerbase, but it's not "alive" in that a brand new person won't just pop into the shop or even type "epic models" and buy into it easily. You either have to know someone that knows or you spend a lot of time figuring it out, at which point you might as well have doubts if this is worth the effort.

A decent sized Epic army from Onslaught or Vanguard is a cheaper starting point than your 1561-model Ultramarines army, but it's cool that they recognize that some people's Warhammer collection does indeed let them play Epic. Some crazy people play Adeptus Titanicus with their 40k scale Titans!

Cronch wrote:
They basically convinced people they can play epic sized games using 40k models, why would they ever go back to Epic scale?

Apocalypse was clearly intended for rare once- or twice-a-year events where players can spend all day on a game to use as many of their shiny toys as possible together. That's not practical for people to do every week, which is why AT & AI exist and Apocalypse is no longer on sale.

There's always going to be a market for games that take less than 3 hours to setup & play, and don't require the entire car to transport your models.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Epic 40K is a cautionary tale in edition change. The 1997 release salted the earth for existing players while not offering enough for newer ones. While the game mechanics were laudable, the game deliberately stripped out the flavour of the previous editions. It was DOA.

As a micro-armour player I liked the scale of Epic and have plenty of armies, but getting players was a problem. I am happy for those who keep it alive through various means, but I would be very surprised to see GW bring it back. It would need a wide range of SKUs to be viable and I just don't see the interest.

What made Epic 40K DOA was the stupid decision to reduce the amount of models the army box sets had, think they went down to 2 sprues... while increasing the price. It meant that Epic 40K was just too expensive to get into. The army box sets previously had I think 8 sprues if not more.

It was GW showing their greed.

Shame as Epic 40K is one of the best versions of Epic GW have ever made.

That said I strongly doubt that GW will ever do Epic again sadly.

Correct. It was also mind-boggling why they would change the base form of infantry. Seemed to me as a nudge to old Epic players like me:
"Hey dude, we don't want you here."

So I never spent a dime and focused on 40K and WHFB instead.

You mean the conversion to the "battle line" base instead of the square? I'm pretty sure there was some language specifically saying the older square format was perfectly fine.

I miss Epic. I thought it looked amazing. Loved the scale of battles it evokes. I have very little left of my old collectiin, but I still have 2 Imperator Titans, one on sprue and one assembled and primed, I think. I might have a couple bettleback Warlords too. Haven't opened that box in a long time.

 xttz wrote:

Cronch wrote:
They basically convinced people they can play epic sized games using 40k models, why would they ever go back to Epic scale?

Apocalypse was clearly intended for rare once- or twice-a-year events where players can spend all day on a game to use as many of their shiny toys as possible together. That's not practical for people to do every week, which is why AT & AI exist and Apocalypse is no longer on sale.

modern 40k armies are basically 2 or 3x the size of 3rd edition ones, and include all sort of Epic-only previously models like airplanes and superheavies. The spectacle of fielding those big pieces is already in 40k. GW would obviously rather keep pushing people to expand their 40k collections than start much easier to manage epic.

All later Epics could use the previous models. By the time we get to Armageddon, the basing is entirely freewheeling as long as you're not over 4 cm or under 0.5 cm in any direction. Square, rectangular, round, banana, all fine.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Epic 40K is a cautionary tale in edition change. The 1997 release salted the earth for existing players while not offering enough for newer ones. While the game mechanics were laudable, the game deliberately stripped out the flavour of the previous editions. It was DOA.

As a micro-armour player I liked the scale of Epic and have plenty of armies, but getting players was a problem. I am happy for those who keep it alive through various means, but I would be very surprised to see GW bring it back. It would need a wide range of SKUs to be viable and I just don't see the interest.

What made Epic 40K DOA was the stupid decision to reduce the amount of models the army box sets had, think they went down to 2 sprues... while increasing the price. It meant that Epic 40K was just too expensive to get into. The army box sets previously had I think 8 sprues if not more.

It was GW showing their greed.

Shame as Epic 40K is one of the best versions of Epic GW have ever made.

That said I strongly doubt that GW will ever do Epic again sadly.

Correct. It was also mind-boggling why they would change the base form of infantry. Seemed to me as a nudge to old Epic players like me:
"Hey dude, we don't want you here."

So I never spent a dime and focused on 40K and WHFB instead.

You mean the conversion to the "battle line" base instead of the square? I'm pretty sure there was some language specifically saying the older square format was perfectly fine.

I miss Epic. I thought it looked amazing. Loved the scale of battles it evokes. I have very little left of my old collectiin, but I still have 2 Imperator Titans, one on sprue and one assembled and primed, I think. I might have a couple bettleback Warlords too. Haven't opened that box in a long time.

Epic 40k introduced the strips, which I think look a lot better. In the Epic 40k rule book it says either strip or square are fine to use xnd don't make a massive difference.

It's obvious that GW uses digital models as a part of their production process now. If they were smart, they would find a way to auto lower the resolution of some details while perserving/pronouncing specific ones. Essentially semi-automate the conversion of current to epic sized. They could send out or buy a 3D scanner the missing core files.

Obviously this ignores the rest of the manufacturing process, which is all accounting and logisitics. I doubt the pencil pushers would say it's worth using up valuable production resources. However, access to the digital models for all of the core units shouldn't be an issue.

I am very hopeful that it will, I only buy official products and nothing would make me happier than to have a new edition + amazing new models for Epic.

With AI/AT already being out and about, I think it's not to far a stretch to say that it's at least an idea they've considered!

I think we will see it again.

AT has proven popular, and not just from its healthy discount boxes during the blink of an eye they’re available.

Whilst I’m still and will always be misty eyed for 2nd Ed Space Marine, I think Epic Armageddon eclipses it in terms of rules. It took the interesting elements from the otherwise a bit rubbish Epic 40,000 (which proved better suited to BFG), and merged them with 2nd Ed Space Marine.

I particularly liked the weapons having Anti Personnel (AP) and Anti Tank (AT) stats. This created a pleasing change in how useful different units were. Whereas in 2nd Ed, you could, eventually, plink even an Imperator to death with mere Bolters.

When we do see it return, I hope they bring back 2nd Ed Space Marine’s army selection. Company card, up to five Support Cards, and up to one Support Card. It allowed flexibility in terms of combined arms, without making the game unwieldy. Of particular note is that each Card could easily be made from a single blister (for metal stuff like tanks) or from a single plastic box.

See, Epic brings something to the table 40K doesn’t. And that’s the feel of being in charge of a wider, more strategic campaign. That it has a far more accessible entry price is no bad thing either.

Do I think we’ll see the plastic boxes as good as they used to be? Honestly, no. Each game system needs to be able to fund its own future after all. But on the flip side, we likely won’t see oddities such as the Stompas boxed set, which provided units for…welll….Space Marines, Orks, Eldar and Chaos. And Mole Mortars for Squats and IG.



Yeah. That was an odd one! Great if you collected multiple armies or had friends you could split the cost with - but not something I’d expect to see repeated in the modern day.

At a bare minimum, I’d be happy if a given plastic set comprises enough models for a complete Company Card. Certainly I don’t want to have to buy multiple to field a given Company Card.

^I didn't realize Space Marine had a 2nd edition. Or is that the same thing at Titan Legions? (I have TL, not SM.)

Titan Legions was a big box expansion that came out during Space Marine 2nd Ed.

Yeah. The original spun off from Adeptus Titanicus. Not sure which years it was available.

But 2nd Ed was around 1992/1993ish.

Frankly, I’d be surprised. The game has had multiple chances, and has never caught on. And don’t say ‘Wahhh, GW didn’t support it!’. They most certainly did. People yawned. Epic is an idea that sounds better in theory than practice.

 totalfailure wrote:
Frankly, I’d be surprised. The game has had multiple chances, and has never caught on. And don’t say ‘Wahhh, GW didn’t support it!’. They most certainly did. People yawned. Epic is an idea that sounds better in theory than practice.

...except it's still going strong with tournaments in UK, Australia, Canada, France and other places, sees active fan development in multiple branches, has spawned a thriving 3d modeling and sculpting community, is desired enough to keep multiple third party vendors in business, is always pined after in forums and social media by people "who'd totally buy into Titanicus if it included tanks and infantry", Epic: Armageddon is one of GW's most applauded rulesets and historically sold way over expectations and was mostly pulled due to internal shenanigans at GW and so on.

Like, what?

 the_scotsman wrote:
anyone can have any epic miniatures they want for a micro-fraction of what it costs to build a 40k army.

3d printer and you could probably make 3 epic armies with a single half-liter of resin.

That's why I don't think it will happen. I'm the first person to dismiss "3D PRINTING WILL KILL GW!!!" but when it comes to Epic, at such a small scale it wouldn't be difficult at all for your basic printer to mimic details pretty much perfectly.

The only way I see it happening is if they go for some weird scale like 17-20mm.

 Sherrypie wrote:

 totalfailure wrote:
Frankly, I’d be surprised. The game has had multiple chances, and has never caught on. And don’t say ‘Wahhh, GW didn’t support it!’. They most certainly did. People yawned. Epic is an idea that sounds better in theory than practice.

...except it's still going strong with tournaments in UK, Australia, Canada, France and other places, sees active fan development in multiple branches, has spawned a thriving 3d modeling and sculpting community, is desired enough to keep multiple third party vendors in business, is always pined after in forums and social media by people "who'd totally buy into Titanicus if it included tanks and infantry", Epic: Armageddon is one of GW's most applauded rulesets and historically sold way over expectations and was mostly pulled due to internal shenanigans at GW and so on.

Like, what?

That ship has already sailed. Let me translate your post for you ‘There is a small group of super hardcore keeping the game alive on the internet’. The game has had multiple chances to succeed. Another one won’t change the most basic fact - it isn’t a license to print money for GW. Those people saying ‘Golly, we’d buy it if only it had tanks and infantry, too’? Where were they, when the game they supposedly lust for, was, you know, actually available? Answer, they didn’t buy before, and won’t again. Everyone will praise how wonderful it was, but bottom line, Epic was a sales dud.

 totalfailure wrote:

 Sherrypie wrote:

 totalfailure wrote:
Frankly, I’d be surprised. The game has had multiple chances, and has never caught on. And don’t say ‘Wahhh, GW didn’t support it!’. They most certainly did. People yawned. Epic is an idea that sounds better in theory than practice.

...except it's still going strong with tournaments in UK, Australia, Canada, France and other places, sees active fan development in multiple branches, has spawned a thriving 3d modeling and sculpting community, is desired enough to keep multiple third party vendors in business, is always pined after in forums and social media by people "who'd totally buy into Titanicus if it included tanks and infantry", Epic: Armageddon is one of GW's most applauded rulesets and historically sold way over expectations and was mostly pulled due to internal shenanigans at GW and so on.

Like, what?

That ship has already sailed. Let me translate your post for you ‘There is a small group of super hardcore keeping the game alive on the internet’. The game has had multiple chances to succeed. Another one won’t change the most basic fact - it isn’t a license to print money for GW. Those people saying ‘Golly, we’d buy it if only it had tanks and infantry, too’? Where were they, when the game they supposedly lust for, was, you know, actually available? Answer, they didn’t buy before, and won’t again. Everyone will praise how wonderful it was, but bottom line, Epic was a sales dud.

How old are they?

Because it could be they were something like 10 then and 30+ now.

 totalfailure wrote:

 Sherrypie wrote:

 totalfailure wrote:
Frankly, I’d be surprised. The game has had multiple chances, and has never caught on. And don’t say ‘Wahhh, GW didn’t support it!’. They most certainly did. People yawned. Epic is an idea that sounds better in theory than practice.

...except it's still going strong with tournaments in UK, Australia, Canada, France and other places, sees active fan development in multiple branches, has spawned a thriving 3d modeling and sculpting community, is desired enough to keep multiple third party vendors in business, is always pined after in forums and social media by people "who'd totally buy into Titanicus if it included tanks and infantry", Epic: Armageddon is one of GW's most applauded rulesets and historically sold way over expectations and was mostly pulled due to internal shenanigans at GW and so on.

Like, what?

That ship has already sailed. Let me translate your post for you ‘There is a small group of super hardcore keeping the game alive on the internet’. The game has had multiple chances to succeed. Another one won’t change the most basic fact - it isn’t a license to print money for GW. Those people saying ‘Golly, we’d buy it if only it had tanks and infantry, too’? Where were they, when the game they supposedly lust for, was, you know, actually available? Answer, they didn’t buy before, and won’t again. Everyone will praise how wonderful it was, but bottom line, Epic was a sales dud.

There happens to be plenty of people who weren't able to make buying decisions for themselves 20 years ago. Also, Epic sold extremely well (400% numbers have floated around the web, but I can't verify how true that was. Point being, well above expectations) and was driven down by other factors (like the studio execs shafting the later production queues resulting in whole armies like E:A Chaos getting snipped before release) that eventually culminated in the Kirby era fiasco of nothing but space marines and their flagship games mattering. No marketing, shelf space or wide releases tends to be bad for games before widespread internet availability. Now? ANYTHING released by GW reaches massive audiences who are willing to buy stuff. Titanicus Warlord was GW's best selling model in 2018 and thousands of those were bought by people who already play Epic, same with Aeronautica planes. If they release GW quality plastics for 6 mm infantry, you can bet your house those will sell like hotcakes.

 totalfailure wrote:
Frankly, I’d be surprised. The game has had multiple chances, and has never caught on. And don’t say ‘Wahhh, GW didn’t support it!’. They most certainly did. People yawned. Epic is an idea that sounds better in theory than practice.

Sir, it is widely recommended that one doesn't post while drunk.

Space Marine/Titan Legions was GW's third game for a prolonged period, and was popular at the time.

Epic 40,000 had some great sculpts (and some iffy ones too, looking at you, Eldar Titans), but the shuffle to the rules definitely took away some of the popularity.

Epic: Armageddon, once the typos in the rulebook were sorted, had a great set of rules, but as this was the early Specialist Games era, there were limited resources available for releases in general, with few new sculpts - aside from the Feral Orks and the Siege regiment (whose name escapes me), I don't recall there being that much that was new released, and many factions never even made it back to being available to purchase. And this, lest we forget, is for a game that was selling ~400% of GW's internal estimates at the time.

Then someone cut the legs out from it even further, probably due to the Kirbyite focus on 40k Marines.

I'm not going to sit here preset a revisionist history that claims that the last two editions of Epic displaced 40k and WFB as the main game GW was producing at the time, but E:A was popular, at the very least. I have no doubts it'd've done better had all "core" factions been available, and if GW had actually continued to support it and the other Specialist Games, rather than killing off that studio, but what do I know? I was only playing the game at the time, and was involved with some of the community-led development of other factions.

Circa 1993 in my gaming ecosystem there was an active Epic (I think it was called Space Marine at the time) group that competed with the WW2 Microarmour group I played with for terrain at the FLGS. They had fun, loud games. As a university student I was already spending too much on WW2 Microarmour so I didn't join in but I thought their games looked fun.

Flash forward to 1997 and Epic comes out. As a fairly recent 40K player coming over from 1:285 WW2 this caught my eye and I dove in. None of the old guard Space Marine players, though, were interested. The game deliberately took out the flavour of the units/armies - the designer's notes celebrated that. Nobody was interested in playing. Sad panda.

It was dead on arrival. Nobody was playing. While I admired the system and the scale the game did not gain traction. My impression is that the company tried to keep it going, but I imagine the bottom line was an issue.

There are some fanatics playing - I tip my hat to them. If they are in Eastern Ontario send me a PM. I kept all my stuff and would be happy to roll some dice.

Gitdakka wrote:
Epic already has a pretty healthy community and rules are freely available. Its pretty easy to pick up and get started (at least with some of the factions).

I'm not really convinced that a GW reboot would improve anything. They would probably cluster the game full of strategems and such. They would most certainly rescale the minis in an attempt to make 3rd party minis and old collections obsolete, and thereby split the fans in two camps again. I think the game would remain more fresh if it is kept in the hands of the community.

Will just quote the above! Really active Epic community already if you check out the Facebook groups; I think with 3D printing and the new companies such as Vanguard and Onslaught selling proxies I don't think it has ever been healthier, possibly even when the game was on sale towards the end!

I did a guide some time ago which might be a little out of date now but will hopefully help anyone thinking of getting into the game
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page

 totalfailure wrote:
Frankly, I’d be surprised. The game has had multiple chances, and has never caught on. And don’t say ‘Wahhh, GW didn’t support it!’. They most certainly did. People yawned. Epic is an idea that sounds better in theory than practice.

As much as I loved Epic, there's reasons it did not catch on.

My private tragedy: I used the original Adeptus Titanicus box to carry my army. Someone spilled a soda near it without cleaning up properly. The bottom softened and came apart while I was carrying it back to my car - right near a sewer grate. Many infantry and rhino models were lost to the drain.

The challenges of maintaining an army at that scale are myriad. I had turrets come off over a shag carpet and get lost forever in the threads. I had tails come off daemon knights that could not be repaired. On a positive note, I don't remember the paint chipping on a single model. But that was before I really knew how to paint, everything was a monotone and I didn't really care what it looked like.

The little, tiny frustrations become significant over time.

I suspect the “it didn’t catch on” is largely a regional thing.

After all, it went through 3 and a bit editions before being dropped alongside all the other specialist games. A game doesn’t last that long without a decent player base.

The issue of course is sustaining that player base.

Epic was always a pretty economical game to play, thanks to the plastic infantry sets, and how comparatively restricted army design options were.

Even with the majority of vehicles being in metal, a Blister would net you a usable unit (either three tanks, or a single super heavy/very specialist vehicle) based on said more restricted army selection.

When it comes back (I am an optimist at heart) I’m fully expecting a different price structure, because every game GW makes has to pay its own bills. I’m ok with that myself, as I’d rather have a more expensive to play Epic than No Epic.

The thing is that there's already a bunch of small companies out there fulfilling demand for Epic products.

There were a bunch of smaller companies doing Blood Bowl and Necromunda too.

The brand is hefty, GW’s reach is longer.

The comments about Epic not selling enough were refuted when Jervis Johnson wrote about it some years ago. Believe he said that there were other 'core' products that were selling worse at the time and that hadn't figured into it. Instead I think it was a strategic change around that time where GW had decided to focus on its 'core range' of 40k, WHFB and LoTR, this is why you saw support drop off for not only Epic but also the other 'specialist' games itself (Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Warmaster etc.)

It's very easy to blame customers, which seems to be what a few above have laughably suggested implying that the product itself was less worthy of GW's attention, but after Epic 30k when the game was removed from store shelves, given a very low development priority and only available by mail order (with Specialist Games themselves only surviving reputedly because Jervis Johnson offered to take all of their administration, shop maintenance etc. under his own wing). Of course the miniatures aren't going to sell in that environment and then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy of the game not selling well enough to support.

I remember after I was a staffer in the early-mid 00's the policy changed in store to no specialist games - I remember this going down like a lead balloon, not least with the Blood Bowl playing group who had their very popular league stopped. I don't know whether this was a directive from up on high or just a manager getting big for his boots, but it was already starting to turn in that direction while I was there.

So: Epic not being a popular enough game to support = bollocks. The game was popular enough when it had effort put into it, and was allowed to wither on the vine.
If you were cynical you would say while people are prepared to pay £50+ for a single tank, and then buy 5 of them to use in Apocalypse games, having them pay less than that for an entire company of vehicles (and have that scale and rule system far better suited to company-level combat) wasn't in the company's best interests.
Thankfully senior management seems to have moved onto a more sensible course now and actually re-released loads of these popular games again, so I think these days its more of an issue of GW having too many SKUs with Epic (it was an awful lot) and the fact that it would absorb so much design team effort as the blocker, rather than it being something to do with the game being fundamentally unpopular or rubbish.

 Pacific wrote:
The comments about Epic not selling enough were refuted when Jervis Johnson wrote about it some years ago. Believe he said that there were other 'core' products that were selling worse at the time and that hadn't figured into it. Instead I think it was a strategic change around that time where GW had decided to focus on its 'core range' of 40k, WHFB and LoTR, this is why you saw support drop off for not only Epic but also the other 'specialist' games itself (Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Warmaster etc.)

It's very easy to blame customers, which seems to be what a few above have laughably suggested implying that the product itself was less worthy of GW's attention, but after Epic 30k when the game was removed from store shelves, given a very low development priority and only available by mail order (with Specialist Games themselves only surviving reputedly because Jervis Johnson offered to take all of their administration, shop maintenance etc. under his own wing). Of course the miniatures aren't going to sell in that environment and then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy of the game not selling well enough to support.

I remember after I was a staffer in the early-mid 00's the policy changed in store to no specialist games - I remember this going down like a lead balloon, not least with the Blood Bowl playing group who had their very popular league stopped. I don't know whether this was a directive from up on high or just a manager getting big for his boots, but it was already starting to turn in that direction while I was there.

So: Epic not being a popular enough game to support = bollocks. The game was popular enough when it had effort put into it, and was allowed to wither on the vine.
If you were cynical you would say while people are prepared to pay £50+ for a single tank, and then buy 5 of them to use in Apocalypse games, having them pay less than that for an entire company of vehicles (and have that scale and rule system far better suited to company-level combat) wasn't in the company's best interests.
Thankfully senior management seems to have moved onto a more sensible course now and actually re-released loads of these popular games again, so I think these days its more of an issue of GW having too many SKUs with Epic (it was an awful lot) and the fact that it would absorb so much design team effort as the blocker, rather than it being something to do with the game being fundamentally unpopular or rubbish.

Not sure if your comment above was aimed at me, but who has been blaming the players/customers for the failure of Epic 40K to catch on? I said that the reboot circa 97 salted the earth for the existing players - that is on the designers and not the players. Either you feel a game or you don't. In my area, what was a fairly active Space Marine scene died with Epic 40K. That is not the player's fault. I do not have access to sales numbers, but if it was lighting up the registers I doubt it would have been shelved.

I stayed with it through Epic Armageddon, buying the Inferno(?) magazines that came out along the way. I wanted Epic 40K to succeed - kept everything. Even my Squats.

 totalfailure wrote:
Epic was a sales dud.

Apart from when it wasn’t? 1st edition sold at times as well as fantasy, and more was spent on making models in plastic than fantasy or 40k (if you don’t include the box games - however part of this was manufacture was outsourced unlike the big name items) hence the big push for 2nd and that large release. It for a time became the second biggest seller before falling back rapidly. Then 3rd was a colossal failure when GW expected sales growth like they saw from 1st to 2nd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pacific wrote:
The comments about Epic not selling enough were refuted when Jervis Johnson wrote about it some years ago. Believe he said that there were other 'core' products that were selling worse at the time and that hadn't figured into it. Instead I think it was a strategic change around that time where GW had decided to focus on its 'core range' of 40k, WHFB and LoTR, this is why you saw support drop off for not only Epic but also the other 'specialist' games itself (Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Warmaster etc.)

The rationale was returns. In essence they made money selling those games, but the profit margin was smaller and they believe enough of those £ would move to the core games to keep up the profits with an overall lower overhead. This was fed by the experience of the soft relaunch of BFG in the states where overall sales were up, but sales of 40k fell during that period showing them they were cannibalising their own sales. Of course they ceded ground to competitors who sprung up to take advantage, and whilst tiny in comparison GW would rather they didn’t exist!

Apologies TangoTwoBravo - my comment wasn't aimed at yourself, just some of the discussion over previous pages.

From comments I have read from Jervis about the failure of 3rd edition Epic Space Marine, he firmly believed it was the best version of the game that had been written. But, they had misjudged how the existing community would react to a simpler, more abstract ruleset (there had been a similar reaction from 1st -> 2nd, as that was itself a simpler ruleset, although not as strong). Also the game didn't get the support it needed both in releases and in marketing it to existing Epic and 40k players.

I had also read that Epic did used to out-sell WHFB, certainly for the 2nd edition and Titan Legions, so the decision not to continue with it in some form and give it development time and money, was a strategic one rather than one based on just bottom line. Remember this was the start of GW flying in ever decreasing circles under the control of Kirby after the LoTR bubble burst, and they did a lot of weird/nonsensical stuff then that a lot of the time didn't have the interests of the gaming community at heart.

Both Epic and BFG failed to hit ambitious sales targets leading to massive surplus stock. They were one of the major items available in the last big (mostly lead) sale GW did (which by the end just involved staff practically giving stuff away as it would otherwise go in skips).

2nd ed beat WHFB sometimes lined to major releases but not on a sustained basis.

 Pacific wrote:


I had also read that Epic did used to out-sell WHFB, certainly for the 2nd edition and Titan Legions, so the decision not to continue with it in some form and give it development time and money, was a strategic one rather than one based on just bottom line. Remember this was the start of GW flying in ever decreasing circles under the control of Kirby after the LoTR bubble burst, and they did a lot of weird/nonsensical stuff then that a lot of the time didn't have the interests of the gaming community at heart.

Its hearsay, but I heard the same from a friend of mine. He was a senior sales manager for GW corporate through the 90s and the early 2000s (i.e. someone who would either know definitively or at least have a very good idea even if he might not have had all the data).