Any rumours on when a new Astra Militarum Codex might be available now that there are new models for the DKoK - I only have a few Cadian IG and wish to get more that will comply with the rules
There are rumors of a new tank, called the Rogal Dorn floating around. I believe I was told that Chapter Master Valrak (a youtube guy) talked about it.
Beaker07 wrote: Any rumours on when a new Astra Militarum Codex might be available now that there are new models for the DKoK - I only have a few Cadian IG and wish to get more that will comply with the rules
The currently 100% accurate B&C rumors from last fall said that this year would be:
Tau in January followed by CSM, Chaos Knights, and Eldar in an unknown order (at the time). After those the following factions were being worked on but don't have fixed release dates; Squats, World Eaters, Daemons, and Astra Militarum.
The same leaker elaborated about AM saying, "Astra Militarum with veteran-style Cadians. Two new regiments are also in the works. New Kasrkin and new vehicle, designed to fit between the Leman Russ and the Baneblade. "
The GW Facebook page posted the following image in their LVO Preview countdown which is Astra Militarum styled with the stenciled date 790.M41.
Spoiler:
This date is referenced (good catch by Kanluwen) by the 5th Ed Guard Codex:
"The Vostroyan IX under Graf Toshenko are wiped out defending the factory city of Polia on the planet of Nimbosa from the Tau Commander Brightsword, inspiring the populace to resist the Tau's culture of 'the Greater Good'." Which (while possibly not an indicator that they'll appear at LVO) could be a hint that one of the two "new regiments" is Vostroyans (which is not entirely surprising).
There's also another so far 100% accurate Reddit leaker who has said that World Eaters won't be in the new CSM dex and that Chaos Knights will be before CSM.
Heafstaag wrote: There are rumors of a new tank, called the Rogal Dorn floating around. I believe I was told that Chapter Master Valrak (a youtube guy) talked about it.
I don't recall a timeline for release, though.
God I hope so, Rogal Dorn deserves more respect (and it seems unlikely we'll get a 40k mini for him).
That being said, Valrak being the source on this seems a bit sus, I think someones just having a go of him since hes a massive Dorn/IF fanboi.
There's also another so far 100% accurate Reddit leaker who has said that World Eaters won't be in the new CSM dex and that Chaos Knights will be before CSM.
My understanding is the 100% accurate leaker said WE wouldn't be in CSM. The source saying Knights before CSM was different I thought.
i had thought of using the new DKoK as veterans for my cadian force with different heads and no backpacks - Will DKoK get a seperate Codex? might just buy a codex off ebay instead of a full price one
Beaker07 wrote: i had thought of using the new DKoK as veterans for my cadian force with different heads and no backpacks - Will DKoK get a seperate Codex? might just buy a codex off ebay instead of a full price one
Honestly?
Nobody knows what's going to happen. All I could reasonably suggest to you is think of making each little bit as its own army if you're choosing to play Guard.
Do a DKoK detachment, with some tanks as support!
Maybe do a Scions detachment to support them!
Heafstaag wrote: There are rumors of a new tank, called the Rogal Dorn floating around. I believe I was told that Chapter Master Valrak (a youtube guy) talked about it.
I don't recall a timeline for release, though.
As long as this new tank doesn’t completely invalidate the existing Guard vehicles, and doesn’t look as derpy as a Taurox I’ll be fine with it. I’m really hoping it doesn’t look like it.
The rumored new tank has had no name attributed to it outside of the Valrak bit, and that doesn't line up with what was mentioned by the more reliable leaker.
Rumored tank is midway between a Russ and Baneblade in size.
Valrak's bit suggested it was Russ sized, if I remember correctly?
Was thinking of getting a Cadian Command Squad maybe stick at that might get a DKoK squad - any reason to avoid Cadians
Right now?
Because there's rumors of an actual, fully refreshed/updated kit coming. They come from the same place as calling out the Death Korps with Kommandos as a Kill Team boxed set. There's also rumors of a plastic Kasrkin set coming.
The new Cadian kit is described as being more of a "veteran" look, with a hint of "nomad" going.
As it stands, the DKoK box? It can be used to set you up with an Officer and Command Squad. There's parts in there which can also let you build a Master of Ordnance out of the remaining 6 models.
The only thing you'll be missing are Heavy Weapons Teams...which I'm currently advising people avoid. As I said, we have no idea what's going on with the revamped Guard book. But it's feeling rather telling that the repacked Cadian box(with the new heads and gear which were apparently set up to go with the Cadian relaunch as a Kill Team) does not include HWTs nor do the DKoK.
But hey, you picked Guard for tanks not guys with tripod guns right?
Think I'll check out the sprues for the DKoK options - might get the cadian command squad but no other troops etc wait and see what happens wont bother with a codex either - thanks to everyone for their help and advice stick with my UM's and orks always lots of new smurfs
RaptorusRex wrote: They're not going to squat HWT. Those sculpts are perfectly fine.
I do think they'll remove them from Infantry Squads, Veteran Squads, and Command Squads. As GW like to have options that are only available in the box. Instead we might see something like:
Wargear:
- Up to 2 Guardsmen may replace their lasguns with up to 2 grenade launchers; 2 flamers; 1 melta gun; 1 plasma gun; 1 sniper rifle.
This would represent what's available in the kit. Which sadly means, we're likely still not going to see a Sergeant with a lasgun.
I also think that Veteran Squads and Special Weapon Squads could be removed. We could see something like a Veteran Infantry Company as an Army of Renown just like Skitarii Veterans. 1 point upgrade for Guardsmen and they get their BS Characteristic changed to 3+, as well as +1 to their Ld Characteristic.
Was thinking of getting a Cadian Command Squad maybe stick at that might get a DKoK squad - any reason to avoid Cadians
Right now?
Because there's rumors of an actual, fully refreshed/updated kit coming. They come from the same place as calling out the Death Korps with Kommandos as a Kill Team boxed set. There's also rumors of a plastic Kasrkin set coming.
The new Cadian kit is described as being more of a "veteran" look, with a hint of "nomad" going.
As it stands, the DKoK box? It can be used to set you up with an Officer and Command Squad. There's parts in there which can also let you build a Master of Ordnance out of the remaining 6 models.
The only thing you'll be missing are Heavy Weapons Teams...which I'm currently advising people avoid. As I said, we have no idea what's going on with the revamped Guard book. But it's feeling rather telling that the repacked Cadian box(with the new heads and gear which were apparently set up to go with the Cadian relaunch as a Kill Team) does not include HWTs nor do the DKoK.
But hey, you picked Guard for tanks not guys with tripod guns right?
How exactly is it telling that a product that never did include even one HWT.... doesn't include one now? If you ever wanted (plastic) Cadian heavy weapons? You bought them separate from the infantry squads. Today is no different than before in that regard.
Likewise with the Krieg. They literally took the KT spues & just shoved them in a solo box. If Krieg specific HWT come? You can be assured that GW intends to sell them to you exactly as they have been doing with the Cadian ones....
I'm also a bit worried that my traditionnal infantry builds would be rendered impossible, by a foreseeable removal of heavy weapons teams from line squads. No heavy weapons in the box = no heavy weapon option. Though for now all I have are sets of three that could easily go into dedicated heavy weapons squads. However to do this we need some sort of boosts to these squads : a 5 point reduction would be nice, and a return of heavy weapon platoons would definitely be needed. It always feels backwards to me that many IG tanks are fieldable by squadrons of up to 3 per heavy support (or fast attack slot) but a much weaker HWS consumes a valuable HS slot for each small squad. They sould make it the other way around : tanks single selections and HWS platoon selections.
How exactly is it telling that a product that never did include even one HWT.... doesn't include one now? If you ever wanted (plastic) Cadian heavy weapons? You bought them separate from the infantry squads. Today is no different than before in that regard.
Spoiler:
This is why it's telling. The Brood Brothers boxes(last updated in 2019 FYI) contain HWTs...but the actual Cadian Guard Infantry Squads(done after the revised Brood Brothers boxes, with the Cadian head sprue) do not.
Spoiler:
There's also this. You'll note that it is not them including the full Heavy Weapons Squad. They just tossed a set of the HWT sprues in.
Likewise with the Krieg. They literally took the KT spues & just shoved them in a solo box. If Krieg specific HWT come? You can be assured that GW intends to sell them to you exactly as they have been doing with the Cadian ones....
You would have had a point...if they still sold the individual HWT sets.
honestly i just hope they get some kind of immunity to the 2 flyer rule. My guard list is 2 valkries, 3 vendettas, and all tempestus (i rarely play games with them but built it because i liek the models). is it a tournament army... goodness no, but when i feel like playing my jumpy plane boys it was nice to be able to play with and with flyer limitations its now invalidated
There's also another so far 100% accurate Reddit leaker who has said that World Eaters won't be in the new CSM dex and that Chaos Knights will be before CSM.
My understanding is the 100% accurate leaker said WE wouldn't be in CSM. The source saying Knights before CSM was different I thought.
So there are two different 100% accurate public leakers that I've seen/heard of. The one from B&C who posted last Fall and then deleted his post shortly after because it got his source in trouble, and Ok_Entrepreneur3004 on Reddit who was seemingly the first person to describe the Shroudrunner Jetbike, CSM vs Eldar box, and the contents of the new Eldar Combat Patrol. Here's a link to an earlier post I made which catalogued some of his posts.
This month he confirmed that the WE aren't in the CSM 'dex and has been describing details about both the forthcoming Primaris release and the Chaos Knight/Imperial Knight 'dexes, which sound like they are coming together or in close proximity.
leerm02 wrote:Man, if that's true about the chaos knights coming out before imperial... there are going to be some UNHAPPY Imperial players!
But, really, it would be about time for that. Considering the many times it has been the opposite of course.
It sounds like (and this is just my speculation) that both Imperial and Chaos Knight 'dexes are coming close together based on the Reddit leaker having details about rules from both of them. Only the Chaos Knights are getting new models though to my knowledge.
There's also another so far 100% accurate Reddit leaker who has said that World Eaters won't be in the new CSM dex and that Chaos Knights will be before CSM.
My understanding is the 100% accurate leaker said WE wouldn't be in CSM. The source saying Knights before CSM was different I thought.
So there are two different 100% accurate public leakers that I've seen/heard of. The one from B&C who posted last Fall and then deleted his post shortly after because it got his source in trouble, and Ok_Entrepreneur3004 on Reddit who was seemingly the first person to describe the Shroudrunner Jetbike, CSM vs Eldar box, and the contents of the new Eldar Combat Patrol. Here's a link to an earlier post I made which catalogued some of his posts.
This month he confirmed that the WE aren't in the CSM 'dex and has been describing details about both the forthcoming Primaris release and the Chaos Knight/Imperial Knight 'dexes, which sound like they are coming together or in close proximity.
leerm02 wrote:Man, if that's true about the chaos knights coming out before imperial... there are going to be some UNHAPPY Imperial players!
But, really, it would be about time for that. Considering the many times it has been the opposite of course.
It sounds like (and this is just my speculation) that both Imperial and Chaos Knight 'dexes are coming close together based on the Reddit leaker having details about rules from both of them. Only the Chaos Knights are getting new models though to my knowledge.
ah thanks for clarifying, adding the redditor to my watchlist
Backspacehacker wrote: So, take this with a grain of salt, but i have been hearing rumors that the next guard codex is going to have.
Spoiler:
Imperial guard units in it.
No, sadly it won't. They're going to keep the stupid faux-Latin 'Military Stars' name.
'Star Military'
Not to my understanding of Latin-
Astra is the plural form of the noun 'star' (astrum).
Militarum is generously a variation of militaris which is either an adjective 'military' or, as a noun, a singular soldier or military man. Which in this context, makes the adjective more likely, since we've already got a noun, and a plural one at that.
So either Military Stars or the even more absurd Stars Soldier (singular).
Backspacehacker wrote: So, take this with a grain of salt, but i have been hearing rumors that the next guard codex is going to have.
Spoiler:
Imperial guard units in it.
No, sadly it won't. They're going to keep the stupid faux-Latin 'Military Stars' name.
'Star Military'
Not to my understanding of Latin-
Astra is the plural form of the noun 'star' (astrum).
Militarum is generously a variation of militaris which is either an adjective 'military' or, as a noun, a singular soldier or military man. Which in this context, makes the adjective more likely, since we've already got a noun, and a plural one at that.
So either Military Stars or the even more absurd Stars Soldier (singular).
And at the end of the day we still pronounce it Imperial Guard.
Astra Militarum isn't Latin though... It's Imperial High Gothic, the rules for which have never been explained and are likely to be just a touch different! So basically they can make up whatever pseudo-Latin-y sounding thing they want and it works because its in a language that doesn't really exist.
Back to the OP, no rumours but I'm hoping that the Guard is made good, but not stupidly overpowered, and at least a new shiny tank or regiment to play with would be nice too.
How exactly is it telling that a product that never did include even one HWT.... doesn't include one now? If you ever wanted (plastic) Cadian heavy weapons? You bought them separate from the infantry squads. Today is no different than before in that regard.
Spoiler:
This is why it's telling. The Brood Brothers boxes(last updated in 2019 FYI) contain HWTs...but the actual Cadian Guard Infantry Squads(done after the revised Brood Brothers boxes, with the Cadian head sprue) do not.
Spoiler:
There's also this. You'll note that it is not them including the full Heavy Weapons Squad. They just tossed a set of the HWT sprues in.
Likewise with the Krieg. They literally took the KT spues & just shoved them in a solo box. If Krieg specific HWT come? You can be assured that GW intends to sell them to you exactly as they have been doing with the Cadian ones....
You would have had a point...if they still sold the individual HWT sets.
They haven't done that for 10ish years now.
Yeah, dude, they didn't include the HWT in the box because they selll a perfectly good HWT kit already. How is this so hard for you to wrap your head around?
Yeah, dude, they didn't include the HWT in the box because they sell a perfectly good HWT kit already. How is this so hard for you to wrap your head around?
How is it so hard for you to wrap your head around the fact that they literally did include the HWT in the box for the Brood Brothers repack? And then they continued selling that repacked set with updated rules, even giving it a new SKU in 2019? Yet the Cadian Shock Troops set, which was released as a new SKU last year with the additional sprue(which added a Meltagun, Sniper Rifle, and Plasma Gun plus a Power Sword for the Sergeant)...did not get a HWT sprue set added to it.
Also, if you want to get snarky or try to get nitpicky? They don't sell a HWT box. They haven't in quite a few years. It was a lil' $16(initially $10) set that included one HWT.
Backspacehacker wrote: So, take this with a grain of salt, but i have been hearing rumors that the next guard codex is going to have.
Spoiler:
Imperial guard units in it.
No, sadly it won't. They're going to keep the stupid faux-Latin 'Military Stars' name.
'Star Military'
Not to my understanding of Latin-
Astra is the plural form of the noun 'star' (astrum).
Militarum is generously a variation of militaris which is either an adjective 'military' or, as a noun, a singular soldier or military man. Which in this context, makes the adjective more likely, since we've already got a noun, and a plural one at that.
So either Military Stars or the even more absurd Stars Soldier (singular).
My (very limited) understanding of Latin was that its a flexible language in which word order can be adjusted freely without necessarily changing their meaning, etc and the words change their endings based on their position and role within the sentence, and context matters heavily in deciphering what is said, etc. In this case, the word order is seemingly irrelevant, and "militarum" is a non-standard ending based on what you said implying it might have a meaining different from the one you ascribed to it, perhaps "Army" or "Armed Force" or "Militia" etc. as opposed to "soldier. So on that basis, contextually, we can understand "Astra Militarum" as "Star Army" or "Star Militia" or however you want to translate it - in this case the context represents that of a galactic military organization.
As others said, its still pronounced "Imperial Guard" regardless.
leerm02 wrote: As far as the new tank being: "between a leman russ and a baneblade"... don't we already have that? Does no one remember the humble Malcador?
(granted, it's not exactly a super-effective unit... but come on!)
[edited because I can't spell]
forgeworld vs GW. some players still exist that think all forgeworld is pay to win (to be fair it kind of used to be on new model launches, but those days have long since past). Also as FW is not something you can just grab at a local gaming store and has to be usually mail ordered direct at full msrp vs 10-25% off. Also the Malcador is part resin part plastic and people do not like resin (i know i do not)
The only bits known about the new tank are that it exists in the lore but doesn't currently have a model.
The real reason why is because GW makes money mainly by selling models, and they will continue to produce new models even if they make limited sense within the context of existing models/lore or would render those existing models semi-redundant.
That being said, do we have a list of potential candidates of what the new tank is? If it exists in the lore but doesn't have a model I can't imagine that the list of named but never seen tanks is too long.
Beaker07 wrote: Any rumours on when a new Astra Militarum Codex might be available now that there are new models for the DKoK - I only have a few Cadian IG and wish to get more that will comply with the rules
A new Tyranid model has been teased for this year, so an Imperial Guard vs Tyranids set is a possibility. If thats the case then we ought to see their codices shortly aftwards.
The thing that is between the size of a Baneblade and a Leman Russ is, in fact, a vehicle built from the same STC as a Baneblade...?
It's probably going to be some obscure piece from a Gaunt's Ghosts novel. Or the size might be a fakeout and include barrel length, which opens up the Destroyer Tank Hunter and its variants.
While I am in no way disagreeing with you (I don't really think it IS the Deathhammer) It was this line that made me think it might work:
"Unfortunately, little else is known about the Deathhammer pattern in current Imperial records, save that it was considered somewhat inferior to the other two similar designs."
I'm thinking it could be something like a scaled down Baneblade, that simply doesn't work as well because it doesn't offer the same protection/firepower etc.
Again: I'm not saying that's what I think it is (obscure mentions in something like Guants Ghosts are also a good possibility) but I think it COULD be this seemingly mysterious tank.
It has been a while since I read the books, but unless the mention is in one of the newer entries all the Gaunt's Ghosts armor I can think of would be Leman Russ-sized or smaller. I could see it being a Ragnarok, what with it being a not!KV-2 which already has some design work done thanks to that World of Tanks crossover with an actual KV-2, but otherwise I'm not sure what it would be.
That said, it's a little insulting to GW to assume that they'd stoop to wordplay BS to justify a re-release of the Destroyer kit over giving us a new vehicle - feth knows, they've just been so creative in the new IG kits, and we've had so very many of them over the past five years, they wouldn't DARE pull a cheap trick like that on us!
Spoiler:
[/s]
And I am being a little unfair there - the new stuff hasn't been garbage, it's just been a lot less than we've lost in the intervening time frame and I've grown jaded over the release schedule. Unless I've forgotten, the last vehicle we got was...actually a .pdf giving 8e rules to an (as far as I can tell) completely unmodified 30k kit. Not exactly inspiring confidence, that.
Kroot allow you to bring a shaper, krootox and hound unit without taking up a slot.
Maybe we'll get something like "for every 2 infantry squads, you can bring a platoon commander, command squad, special weapon squad and heavy weapon squad without taking up a detachment slot"
How exactly is it telling that a product that never did include even one HWT.... doesn't include one now? If you ever wanted (plastic) Cadian heavy weapons? You bought them separate from the infantry squads. Today is no different than before in that regard.
Spoiler:
This is why it's telling. The Brood Brothers boxes(last updated in 2019 FYI) contain HWTs...but the actual Cadian Guard Infantry Squads(done after the revised Brood Brothers boxes, with the Cadian head sprue) do not.
Spoiler:
There's also this. You'll note that it is not them including the full Heavy Weapons Squad. They just tossed a set of the HWT sprues in.
Likewise with the Krieg. They literally took the KT spues & just shoved them in a solo box. If Krieg specific HWT come? You can be assured that GW intends to sell them to you exactly as they have been doing with the Cadian ones....
You would have had a point...if they still sold the individual HWT sets.
They haven't done that for 10ish years now.
I'm telling you worst case HWT are removed from squads, but the HWS will still exist.
It's been rumoured to be called the Rogal Dorn Battle Tank. Suppose to be between a Russ and Baneblade. Which is stupid, cause we already have the Malcador and Macharius, makes me a little scared at least one of them will be going to legends.
I'm telling you worst case HWT are removed from squads, but the HWS will still exist.
Nowhere, ever, have I said that HWS would cease to exist but okay try to score some points.
Continually I've suggested that Heavy Weapons Teams would be removed from Infantry Squads in favor of upping specials.
It's been rumoured to be called the Rogal Dorn Battle Tank. Suppose to be between a Russ and Baneblade. Which is stupid, cause we already have the Malcador and Macharius, makes me a little scared at least one of them will be going to legends.
Valrak is the only person to have called it the Rogal Dorn, just FYI.
leerm02 wrote: As far as the new tank being: "between a leman russ and a baneblade"... don't we already have that? Does no one remember the humble Malcador?
(granted, it's not exactly a super-effective unit... but come on!)
[edited because I can't spell]
FW has a Malcador. And yeah, I know, everyone who uses FW products says that FW=GW.
But if I could buy a platsic Malcador off the shelf in a GW or FLGS and get rules for it in the dex rather than in a second book that is more expensive than dexes and also couldn't be bought off the shelf? That would be ENTIRELY different than the way we currently "have a Malcador" - and I'd settle for that.
Happened with the Valkyrie.
Off course, new hotness could be fun too. Time will tell.
leerm02 wrote: As far as the new tank being: "between a leman russ and a baneblade"... don't we already have that? Does no one remember the humble Malcador?
(granted, it's not exactly a super-effective unit... but come on!)
[edited because I can't spell]
FW has a Malcador. And yeah, I know, everyone who uses FW products says that FW=GW.
But if I could buy a platsic Malcador off the shelf in a GW or FLGS and get rules for it in the dex rather than in a second book that is more expensive than dexes and also couldn't be bought off the shelf? That would be ENTIRELY different than the way we currently "have a Malcador" - and I'd settle for that.
Happened with the Valkyrie.
Off course, new hotness could be fun too. Time will tell.
I own 5 Malcadors in resin, would prefer Macharius in plastic over the Malcador (particularly as the Macharius molds have a lot of issues and the kit suffers as a result).
Ravajaxe wrote: I'm also a bit worried that my traditionnal infantry builds would be rendered impossible, by a foreseeable removal of heavy weapons teams from line squads. No heavy weapons in the box = no heavy weapon option. Though for now all I have are sets of three that could easily go into dedicated heavy weapons squads. However to do this we need some sort of boosts to these squads : a 5 point reduction would be nice, and a return of heavy weapon platoons would definitely be needed. It always feels backwards to me that many IG tanks are fieldable by squadrons of up to 3 per heavy support (or fast attack slot) but a much weaker HWS consumes a valuable HS slot for each small squad. They sould make it the other way around : tanks single selections and HWS platoon selections.
I concur! Have an exalt! I truly believe that it should be the other way around. Here is to hoping that they bring back combined squads!
Looking at the context there, Kan, I'm pretty sure what was meant was buying multiple HWS as one HS choice, as opposed one one HWS being a HS choice while a squadron of Leman Russ MBTs are also one HS choice.
Didn't look like they were discussing combining Infantry Squads together.
I have never seen anyone, not even people who hated playing against guard and wanted them nerfed to hell and back, suggest that removing platoons did anything but absolutely wreck the army.
Platoons would be meaningless in 9th, they served a purpose when the FOC limited your ability to field enough units to properly play the army, but the way detachments work now makes that largely irrelevant outside of whatever limitations rule of 3 might impose.
- many times we are taking additional detachments just to get the troops we want. Now we wouldn't have to take the additional detachments
- it gives us the option for Lieutenants to re-rolls 1s to wound (without taking an elite slot)
- we can take HWTs as additional units in the platoon, without taking up valuable heavy support slots
The biggest thing that was stupid was tournaments requiring all troops slots to be maxed out, which meant most of the guard army became nothing but troops.
Platoons were never mandatory. Weren't veterans a troop choice that wasnt in a platoon?
Platoon commander, command squad, Special weapon squad, and Heavy weapon squads should not eat up elite/heavy slots if we form a platoon formation, further they should get obsec and not count towards rule of 3.
Platoons were mandatory back in the 3e/3.5e dexes (and the 2e one as well, IIRC) by virtue of being the only Troops choice. Vets were Elites until the 5e dex, when they moved to Troops. While the mandatory purchases could be kind of annoying (I do recall wanting to make Mechanized lists back in 5e and feeling a little miffed I couldn't just take lone Infantry Squads so I could save some points for wargear/more tonks), I'm in favor of their return if only so our Elites slot doesn't stay so fething bloated.
I'm pretty sure they'll at least make the Command Squads not take a slot with a Company Commander/Tempestor Prime. I'd honestly rather see them fused into a single unit again though.
I'd like to see platoons return; never got the chance to use or see them in action as I got into Guard during 8th edition.
Arcanis161 wrote: I'm pretty sure they'll at least make the Command Squads not take a slot with a Company Commander/Tempestor Prime. I'd honestly rather see them fused into a single unit again though.
I'd like to see platoons return; never got the chance to use or see them in action as I got into Guard during 8th edition.
Yes, I think that the command 'squad' should just be additional models as an option to come with the Company/Platoon commander, and other officers; perhaps even with variable size and potentially include Ogryn bodyguards, so they don't take up additional Elite stlots. Be pretty nice if the Officer of the Fleet could have a fleet enforcers one, probably not going to happen but one can dream.
There's enough infantry squad slots that platoons aren't really necessary, Brigades are fairly easy for Guard to field, and 12 slots is a decent enough amount. I do think heavy weapons squads should be able to come in more than one per slot - or have some other allowance that gives you a way to take more somehow though.
Agreed. In the 3.5 Dex there were many alternate troops (Storm Trooper squads, Leman Russ Tanks, Armored Fist squads (though 1 platoon was mandatory to take them), etc.
It just depended what doctrines and lists you chose from.
chaos0xomega wrote: Platoons would be meaningless in 9th, they served a purpose when the FOC limited your ability to field enough units to properly play the army, but the way detachments work now makes that largely irrelevant outside of whatever limitations rule of 3 might impose.
This is completely false. Adding back platoons saves a ton of CP from requiring multiple detachments, as well as the mandatory HQ and troop tax required to field those detachments.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unit1126PLL wrote: Agreed. In the 3.5 Dex there were many alternate troops (Storm Trooper squads, Leman Russ Tanks, Armored Fist squads (though 1 platoon was mandatory to take them), etc.
It just depended what doctrines and lists you chose from.
Yep. Honestly? My ideal Guard codex would have been 5th edition with 3.5 editions pick 5 system. Want mech-vet spam? Then you need to use 1 doctrine point for the mechanised alternate regiment organisation. 1 doctrine point to unlock veterans. Then that only leaves you with 3 more doctrine points to unlock restricted units, skills, drills, or equipment.
chaos0xomega wrote: Platoons would be meaningless in 9th, they served a purpose when the FOC limited your ability to field enough units to properly play the army, but the way detachments work now makes that largely irrelevant outside of whatever limitations rule of 3 might impose.
This is completely false. Adding back platoons saves a ton of CP from requiring multiple detachments, as well as the mandatory HQ and troop tax required to field those detachments.
Is it really false though?
All of the codices coming out lately have had some kind of "X makes Y not take up slots". Who knows what they're going to do with Guard.
I can live without platoons if i can take more than 3 heavy weapon squads and special weapon squads. Would also be real nice if alot of the elite slots didnt count as a slot
chaos0xomega wrote: Platoons would be meaningless in 9th, they served a purpose when the FOC limited your ability to field enough units to properly play the army, but the way detachments work now makes that largely irrelevant outside of whatever limitations rule of 3 might impose.
This is completely false. Adding back platoons saves a ton of CP from requiring multiple detachments, as well as the mandatory HQ and troop tax required to field those detachments.
In a 2000pt game, a Brigade detachment is more than ample enough to field the typical multi-platoon guard list of yore:
3 Company Commanders
3 Platoon Commanders
3 Command Squads
2 Special Weapon Squads
12 Guard Squads
3 Heavy Support Squads
comes out to 1145 pts before any upgrades (I.E. everything is naked) and leaves you with 2 HQ, 5 Fast Attack (of which you *must* take 3), 2 Heavy Support and 2 Flyer slots. Fluff out all the squads with special and heavy weapons and it comes in around 1500pts, and you still have 3 obligatory fast attack choices you need to take, and you've yet to touch your CP pool whatsoever.
The only way the absence of platoon rules hurts us is by capping special, heavy, and command squads at 3 units a piece because they can no longer be taken as part of the troops slot - but the reason that cap exists in the first place is *BECAUSE* of Guard, as the faction essentially broke the game by spamming heavy weapon squads in 8th edition (specifically with mortars). The only builds realistically hurt by this are those that want to play infantry pure builds with 200+ guardsmen on the table... Realistically? Those builds wouldn't win anyway, and its not because of the lack of platoon structure. A real competitive list has the potential to remove about 100 Drukhari Wracks in a single turn, against lists like that 200 guardsmen on foot don't stand a chance.
In a 2000pt game, a Brigade detachment is more than ample enough to field the typical multi-platoon guard list of yore:
3 Company Commanders
3 Platoon Commanders
3 Command Squads
2 Special Weapon Squads
12 Guard Squads
3 Heavy Support Squads
Kanluwen wrote: This is completely false. Adding back platoons saves a ton of CP from requiring multiple detachments, as well as the mandatory HQ and troop tax required to field those detachments.
Is it really false though?
All of the codices coming out lately have had some kind of "X makes Y not take up slots". Who knows what they're going to do with Guard.
Yes, a ton of people play pure infantry Guard in tournaments. To field 18 infantry squads most people take 3 battalions, that means you're already 6 CP done. Bringing back platoons prevents this issue.
I play pure infantry Scions at tournaments. 3 battalions, 3 Tempestor Primes, 3 Lord Commissars, 18 Scion squads. Normally I only have 4 CP left after additional relics and WLT's.
In a 2000pt game, a Brigade detachment is more than ample enough to field the typical multi-platoon guard list of yore:
3 Company Commanders
3 Platoon Commanders
3 Command Squads
2 Special Weapon Squads
12 Guard Squads
3 Heavy Support Squads
comes out to 1145 pts before any upgrades (I.E. everything is naked) and leaves you with 2 HQ, 5 Fast Attack (of which you *must* take 3), 2 Heavy Support and 2 Flyer slots. Fluff out all the squads with special and heavy weapons and it comes in around 1500pts, and you still have 3 obligatory fast attack choices you need to take, and you've yet to touch your CP pool whatsoever.
The only way the absence of platoon rules hurts us is by capping special, heavy, and command squads at 3 units a piece because they can no longer be taken as part of the troops slot - but the reason that cap exists in the first place is *BECAUSE* of Guard, as the faction essentially broke the game by spamming heavy weapon squads in 8th edition (specifically with mortars). The only builds realistically hurt by this are those that want to play infantry pure builds with 200+ guardsmen on the table... Realistically? Those builds wouldn't win anyway, and its not because of the lack of platoon structure. A real competitive list has the potential to remove about 100 Drukhari Wracks in a single turn, against lists like that 200 guardsmen on foot don't stand a chance.
Quick nitpicks:
Ye Olde Guard Platoonnes would be 5 Command Squads, not 3 (they came with Company Commanders as well as Platoon Commanders, and the old FOC was 1-2 HQ slots outside of shenanigans with 2k+ pt games). Also, IIRC Ro3 was implemented to curb Flyrant/T'au Commander spam, not Guard (though I wouldn't be surprised if we were on the list of "things this would solve"). I'd argue that Platoons would mitigate the need for Ro3 when it comes to things like Heavy Weapon Squads, since Platoons only had a few slots for HWS/SWS per Platoon and you'd need to pay the Infantry Squad+Platoon Command tax to unlock more slots for them.
You know, after the "Ash Wastes" announcement at LVO, I'm starting to think those imperial vehicle parts in the Rumor Engine aren't guard, but stuff for Necromunda.
In a 2000pt game, a Brigade detachment is more than ample enough to field the typical multi-platoon guard list of yore:
3 Company Commanders
3 Platoon Commanders
3 Command Squads
2 Special Weapon Squads
12 Guard Squads
3 Heavy Support Squads
comes out to 1145 pts before any upgrades (I.E. everything is naked) and leaves you with 2 HQ, 5 Fast Attack (of which you *must* take 3), 2 Heavy Support and 2 Flyer slots. Fluff out all the squads with special and heavy weapons and it comes in around 1500pts, and you still have 3 obligatory fast attack choices you need to take, and you've yet to touch your CP pool whatsoever.
The only way the absence of platoon rules hurts us is by capping special, heavy, and command squads at 3 units a piece because they can no longer be taken as part of the troops slot - but the reason that cap exists in the first place is *BECAUSE* of Guard, as the faction essentially broke the game by spamming heavy weapon squads in 8th edition (specifically with mortars). The only builds realistically hurt by this are those that want to play infantry pure builds with 200+ guardsmen on the table... Realistically? Those builds wouldn't win anyway, and its not because of the lack of platoon structure. A real competitive list has the potential to remove about 100 Drukhari Wracks in a single turn, against lists like that 200 guardsmen on foot don't stand a chance.
Quick nitpicks:
Ye Olde Guard Platoonnes would be 5 Command Squads, not 3 (they came with Company Commanders as well as Platoon Commanders, and the old FOC was 1-2 HQ slots outside of shenanigans with 2k+ pt games).
Yes, as I noted that the absence of platoon rules only hurts us by limiting special/heavy/command because they are now capped at 3 units due to Ro3 - but that wasn't the case when the current guard codex was written, it was a change instituted after the fact.
Also, IIRC Ro3 was implemented to curb Flyrant/T'au Commander spam, not Guard (though I wouldn't be surprised if we were on the list of "things this would solve"). I'd argue that Platoons would mitigate the need for Ro3 when it comes to things like Heavy Weapon Squads, since Platoons only had a few slots for HWS/SWS per Platoon and you'd need to pay the Infantry Squad+Platoon Command tax to unlock more slots for them.
It was, to my recollection, a backlash against mortar spam. Flyrants and Tau Commanders were curbed by putting detachment limits on how many could be fielded instead. You are correct that a return to platoons would definitely resolve a lot of issues though, where we differ is that I argue that the loss of platoons didn't create any issues (rather I blame Ro3 for that).
Togusa wrote: You know, after the "Ash Wastes" announcement at LVO, I'm starting to think those imperial vehicle parts in the Rumor Engine aren't guard, but stuff for Necromunda.
In a 2000pt game, a Brigade detachment is more than ample enough to field the typical multi-platoon guard list of yore:
3 Company Commanders
3 Platoon Commanders
3 Command Squads
2 Special Weapon Squads
12 Guard Squads
3 Heavy Support Squads
comes out to 1145 pts before any upgrades (I.E. everything is naked) and leaves you with 2 HQ, 5 Fast Attack (of which you *must* take 3), 2 Heavy Support and 2 Flyer slots. Fluff out all the squads with special and heavy weapons and it comes in around 1500pts, and you still have 3 obligatory fast attack choices you need to take, and you've yet to touch your CP pool whatsoever.
The only way the absence of platoon rules hurts us is by capping special, heavy, and command squads at 3 units a piece because they can no longer be taken as part of the troops slot - but the reason that cap exists in the first place is *BECAUSE* of Guard, as the faction essentially broke the game by spamming heavy weapon squads in 8th edition (specifically with mortars). The only builds realistically hurt by this are those that want to play infantry pure builds with 200+ guardsmen on the table... Realistically? Those builds wouldn't win anyway, and its not because of the lack of platoon structure. A real competitive list has the potential to remove about 100 Drukhari Wracks in a single turn, against lists like that 200 guardsmen on foot don't stand a chance.
Quick nitpicks:
Ye Olde Guard Platoonnes would be 5 Command Squads, not 3 (they came with Company Commanders as well as Platoon Commanders, and the old FOC was 1-2 HQ slots outside of shenanigans with 2k+ pt games). Also, IIRC Ro3 was implemented to curb Flyrant/T'au Commander spam, not Guard (though I wouldn't be surprised if we were on the list of "things this would solve"). I'd argue that Platoons would mitigate the need for Ro3 when it comes to things like Heavy Weapon Squads, since Platoons only had a few slots for HWS/SWS per Platoon and you'd need to pay the Infantry Squad+Platoon Command tax to unlock more slots for them.
This is a bit wrong. Platoons only came with Platoon Commanders; minimum size was 2 infantry squads and one Platoon Command Squad. Attachments and increases came from there.
Company commanders were part of a separate HQ choice called an HQ Platoon, which included company-level and attached battalion level assets (could be as little as a single command squad containing the commander, or could include an entire weapons platoon of 4x HWS and an attached sentinel squadron).
chaos0xomega wrote: Yes, as I noted that the absence of platoon rules only hurts us by limiting special/heavy/command because they are now capped at 3 units due to Ro3 - but that wasn't the case when the current guard codex was written, it was a change instituted after the fact.
<snip>
It was, to my recollection, a backlash against mortar spam. Flyrants and Tau Commanders were curbed by putting detachment limits on how many could be fielded instead. You are correct that a return to platoons would definitely resolve a lot of issues though, where we differ is that I argue that the loss of platoons didn't create any issues (rather I blame Ro3 for that).
Ah, that's fair. I thought you were aiming at pure old-Guard with no concern for Ro3 in that listing. I'd actually agree with you that removing Platoons by itself didn't do much damage - I'd consider the ease with which we burn through Elite/HS slots to be an issue (regardless of whether we're under the 8e paradigm of "moar detachments moar gooder" or the current "as few detachments as possible"), but nothing in losing Platoons necessitated that the Command Squads be separated from their officers and the slot burn could have been ameliorated by giving some of those units a "this unit does not count as taking a slot" special rule. Between that and Ro3, the 8e/9e FOCs would certainly be capable of giving us the room to remake Platoons without issue.
This is a bit wrong. Platoons only came with Platoon Commanders; minimum size was 2 infantry squads and one Platoon Command Squad. Attachments and increases came from there.
Company commanders were part of a separate HQ choice called an HQ Platoon, which included company-level and attached battalion level assets (could be as little as a single command squad containing the commander, or could include an entire weapons platoon of 4x HWS and an attached sentinel squadron).
That was the case in 3e/3.5e, yes, but 5e allowed us to take solo Company Command squads. When someone says "Platoons of yore", I think anything 5e and older, so I didn't want to presume whether it would be a ~3e Company Command plus assets or a 5e Company Command, non-advisor assets separate.
After seeing what everyone else has posted, I feel my issue with AM Infantry Squads, is the fact that they are limited to 10 man squad size.
Yes, I know that I can run Conscripts at 20 to 30 model count range. But why for the love of God, in 8th edition, we suddenly no longer could run that or more model count, for infantry squad/ platoons?
I would rather run my Infantry units in blocks of 3 or 4 platoons of 30 to 50 models per platoon, than individual squads of 10 models each.
In the Rumors/Leaks? about the new CSM codex, there is a "HQ Chaos Cultist Squad." Maybe GW will return the Company/Platoon commander to a squad instead of split into the Character and the Squad!
Tittliewinks22 wrote: In the Rumors/Leaks? about the new CSM codex, there is a "HQ Chaos Cultist Squad." Maybe GW will return the Company/Platoon commander to a squad instead of split into the Character and the Squad!
I'm really hoping this is the case. I've been suggesting for ages we get rid of the command squad from elites, and just make them additional models for officers. That way you then have the choice of using them as plasma/melta squads, but at the risk of the officers life as well, or double down as a buffing squad.
For example, a Company Commander could purchase up to 4 additional Veterans at 7 points per model. If you really wanted to you could take just one and give them a regiment standard. Obviously you make any of the additional models count as characters for the purposes of LoS and not actual characters.
Since the 40k system has become so dependent on having melee troops, what do you think are the chances of getting more melee options for imperial guard?
Guard dont need more melee options, they need the ones they have to actually be worthwhile. Crusaders are probably not going to improve substantially/at all based on the Sisters book, and Bullgryns are already pretty good but a small boost wouldn't hurt. Other than that, giving rank and file guardsmen bayonets or something so they have a little more oomph in combat would be nice. A militarum tempestus close combat squad would be cool too.
Tittliewinks22 wrote: In the Rumors/Leaks? about the new CSM codex, there is a "HQ Chaos Cultist Squad." Maybe GW will return the Company/Platoon commander to a squad instead of split into the Character and the Squad!
There is not an "HQ Chaos Cultist Squad".
There is a character with bodyguards...which is a potentially very different beast.
Reintroduce the concept of "Retinue" and allow each commander an optional retinue of 4 veterans. They would gain the look out sir rule and must stay within coherency of the commander. I would love to bring medics/standards again but without look out sir they really are a liability.
I'll harp on this until it's reverted, but the Rule of 3 killed my heavy weapon squad collection, and I want to be able to run them all as a platoon again...
Kanluwen wrote: There is a character with bodyguards...which is a potentially very different beast.
Sounds pretty similar to me. It wouldn't be hard to redo old command squads either.
It's not.
Marneus Calgar comes with a bodyguard unit, the Victrix Guard, which are a separate unit.
Tau Commanders get Crisis Bodyguard Units which still remain a separate unit from them, but do not cost an Elite slot when taken in conjunction with a Commander.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tittliewinks22 wrote: Reintroduce the concept of "Retinue" and allow each commander an optional retinue of 4 veterans. They would gain the look out sir rule and must stay within coherency of the commander. I would love to bring medics/standards again but without look out sir they really are a liability.
Meh. There's a lot of other reasons they're a liability.
I'll harp on this until it's reverted, but the Rule of 3 killed my heavy weapon squad collection, and I want to be able to run them all as a platoon again...
Meanwhile, over in Actual Problems Land, my Onager Squadrons ceased to exist so I ended up with triple the number of models than anyone could really need given Ro3.
I've said before and I'll say again:
Simple fix is for "Heavy Weapon Squads" to be redesigned into 3 types. Mortar Squad, Anti-Tank Squad, and Fire Support Squad.
Also some weapons just do not belong as "Heavy". Looking at you Missile Launchers.
Agreed with Kanluwen on the HWS fix (and also RIP to Onager builds, narrowly dodged a bullet there myself), though I would argue mortars should be in the fire support datasheet rather than as a separate standalone datasheet from anti-tank/fire support (mainly because they need to be in competition with something otherwise they become a near auto-include). I've been advocating for basically this approach since Ro3 raised its ugly head. If I'm limited to just 3 units of HWS in an army, then most of the weapon options are really non-options as I'm going to fill all 3 of those slots with the most optimal option 100% of the time. If you split them up a bit though then I have some actual choices to make.
My reason for Mortars being their own datasheet is that I'm of the opinion that it's open for upgrades to the mortar team via shells or stratagems. Smokescreens, incendiaries, whatever.
Big issue, no matter what though, is that there is a "why would I bother?" with all of the HWS options as long as HWTs are in Infantry, Command, or Veteran Squads.
If GW would give the mortars more functionality like that, I would be 100% on board with them being a separate datasheet. If they just stay a simple random number of attack weapon as they are now though, they should be combined with the other "fire support" type weapons.
And I don't think theres an element of "why bother" with HWS vs HWT at all. If I'm looking to bulk out on heavy weapons, points wise its more efficient for me to buy HWS for 3 HWTs vs buying Infantry/Command/Veteran squads for 1. Using lascannons as an example, an HWS w/ 3 Lascannons clocks in at 65 points 21.667 pts/lascannon), vs 70 points for an infantry squad with 1 lascannon or 40 pts for a command squad with 1 lascannon. If I'm looking for lascannons, based on this, the command squad is the worst choice, because I get 1 lascannon for almost twice the cost per gun of the HWS, and I still get the same number of lasgun shots out of the HWS as I would out of the command squad, meaning I don't offset the lascannon cost in the command squad with lasgun shots. In the case of the infantry squad, I'm getting 9 lasguns and 1 lascannon for 5 pts more than for 3 lasguns and 3 lascannons in the HWS squad, theres probably a mathematically/statistically provable scenario where 9 lasguns + 1 lascannon are better than 3 lasguns + 3 lascannons, but if I'm fielding HWSs its because I expect to encounter challenges that lascannons or whatever are better suited against and the corner case where the lasguns are a better choice is secondary to the enhanced utility of a larger number of heavier weapons at a lower cost.
The veteran squad is a bit harder to evaluate because of the improved BS, but still probably isn't as points efficient as the HWS.
Kanluwen wrote: Marneus Calgar comes with a bodyguard unit, the Victrix Guard, which are a separate unit.
Fair enough.
Kanluwen wrote: Tau Commanders get Crisis Bodyguard Units which still remain a separate unit from them, but do not cost an Elite slot when taken in conjunction with a Commander.
Unlike the above they're treated like regular bodyguards these days. Like both versions of Celestian squads.
Kanluwen wrote: I've said before and I'll say again:
Simple fix is for "Heavy Weapon Squads" to be redesigned into 3 types. Mortar Squad, Anti-Tank Squad, and Fire Support Squad.
Also some weapons just do not belong as "Heavy". Looking at you Missile Launchers.
This is exactly how it worked in the 3rd edition codexes. Great system. Means you could have up to 9 HWS's too.
If we are wish listing about heavy weapons squads what about increasing the size of the unit? Instead of 3 teams, why not 6? So the unit size would be 3-6.
And please give us heavy stubber, or dual, or quad heavy stubber options for heavy weapons teams/squads while we're at it!
Was thinking of getting a Cadian Command Squad maybe stick at that might get a DKoK squad - any reason to avoid Cadians
Right now?
Because there's rumors of an actual, fully refreshed/updated kit coming. They come from the same place as calling out the Death Korps with Kommandos as a Kill Team boxed set. There's also rumors of a plastic Kasrkin set coming.
Kasrkin? Heck yeah give me a functional storm trooper army with tanks and other goodies.
That's my main grip about storm troopers as is. They technically have no support other than the valkyrie
Baneblades can now be taken in "Squadrons" and ignore Invulns with their Heavy twin linked Plasma Cannon sponsons.
HWT Mortars are now 36" and D3 shots, but now wounds to all units within 3" of target unit as well.
Command squads now need to taken with a flag, a medic, a radio guy, and a 4th option dependent on regiment.
Chimera Lasgun Arrays will now be Assault 20, S4, ap 2, d1, entirely by mistake, and afterwords will be Heavy 3 s4, ap3, dd3, requiring a third FAQ, where they will just remove Chimera's from the game.
Lehman Russ Vanquishers will be Heavy 1, S9, AP4 4 damage. They will then be FAQ'd back down to S8 AP3 Dd6 drop the lowest. Because we can't have nice things.
Death Strike will have the fly keyword, by accident, but lose the ability to target without LoS.
Wyrdvane Psykers will now be able to be taken in squads of 14, but will require the purchase of 3 separate box sets to complete the entire squad.
Wyrdvane Psykers will now be able to be taken in squads of 14, but will require the purchase of 3 separate box sets to complete the entire squad.
/Sarcasm
Um? Back when they were metals (ie, when I bought mine), they were either 3 or 4 to a blister pack.
... and they're actually still sold as 3-packs. Still metal, too.
So, yeah. Not so much sarcasm as actual reality.
But their new Combat patrol box in September will come with 5 OMG!! Wyrdvane Psykers, in their ALL NEW MONOPOSE look, with 1 Chimera, two 5x squads of IG, and 1 CC, and a Lord Commissar. So you still need 3 boxes.
I get that you're trying to be snide about GW's releases and choices, but none of it makes much sense.
Its all either literally true, underpowered by 6th edition's standards (let alone 9th's absurd lethality) or just wacky and baseless beyond GW's worst decisions.
But it seems odd when someone's trying to find out actual rumors (and there are some)
Not a runor, just a guess.
The combat patrol box will be a comoany command, infantry squad, heavy weapon squad, leman russ, and bullgryn. 25PL. Suspect it will come in Krieg
GW has a bad habit of lumping some of their worst performing units into SC boxes, or battle forces to move underselling product. Take a look at the DA/BA boxes. Incursors, Aggressors, Inceptors, which are all useless to those sub factions.
Hell, the SWs came with Reivers, the most useless unit of the entire Primaris lineup.
The flip side of that is that the Drukhari combat patrol is killer, the GSC and Custodes boxes
they previewed are solid, the only reason nobody likes the Ork box is because the boyz are the new inferior monopose kits that don't make enough boyz with identical weapons to field an actual squad, the Necron combat patrol is solid but its otherwise a weak faction, the rumored CSM box sounds pretty good, etc. Its really just marines, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons that have awful boxes. Sisters too, arguably, since the minis are the monopose variants.
The rumors say new Cadians and one more regiment (not sure if that's one more plus the DKK or if it means the DKK).
I've thought for a while that Necromunda shows GW could make 6 regiment boxes (or whatever number) for Mordians, Vostroyans, Tallarn etc. Throw some officer options on it and a generic heavy weapon sprue and you've got the whole regiment in a box.
The rumored contents for the DKoK range:
-Grenadiers/Engineers(box)
-Death Riders of Krieg(box)
-Heavy Weapons Team(large clamshell/small box)
-Grenadier/Engineer Officer(clamshell)
-Quartermaster with Servitors(large clamshell)
-Death Rider Officer/Commissar(large clamshell/box)
-Tank Commander Accessories(large clamshell)
From what it has been sounding like, they're not interested in "just" doing boxes. They want to let Guard players also have the capability to have an elite contingent that isn't just Tempestus.
Additionally, the rumor isn't just "new Cadians". It's a redone Cadians box(and yes, that rumor came out after the additional sprue was released), plastic Kasrkin, and a new tank. The tank is purportedly something that's been in the lore but not never had rules before--which has been making me think it's something Urdeshi from the Gaunt's Ghosts novels.
And as a couple of further adds:
There's been some reliable rumors on Squats returning. There had been a rumor way back when Astra Militarum was first released that the namechange was going to be associated with bringing in more Auxilia stuff--and a rumor was that Squats would be making their way in via that route.
Regarding Heavy Weapon Teams, there were some early 8E rumours that the Special/Heavy list would see a shakeup for Guard. It didn't happen...but neither did any of the rumored model releases at the time. One of the rumors was that we'd see Rapiers and Sabre Defense Platforms making it into the codex...that might be coming around this time. I've been speculating something fierce about the lack of Heavy Weapons Team frames being packaged into the repacked Cadian box and will continue to do so. The Brood Brothers box has been repacked into the new box styles so is going to hang around for awhile and has those same sprues packed in with a Cadian box and a GSC upgrade frame.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: The rumors say new Cadians and one more regiment (not sure if that's one more plus the DKK or if it means the DKK).
I've thought for a while that Necromunda shows GW could make 6 regiment boxes (or whatever number) for Mordians, Vostroyans, Tallarn etc. Throw some officer options on it and a generic heavy weapon sprue and you've got the whole regiment in a box.
But no rumors of that happening
Rumors actually said Cadians and *two* new regiments in the works. We have assumed that one of those regiments is DKK, and the other is still as of yet outstanding. Also indicates Kasrkin are in the works for Cadians.
And yeah, Necromunda x Militarum Tempestus is proof that a single well-designed multikit could adequately service a regiment, potentially allowing you to build Company/Platoon Commanders, command squads, special weapon squads, heavy weapon squads, veteran squads, infantry squads, and conscripts from the same box, with bits to upgrade tank commanders in cuppolas and the like. The problem is - it would probably be a pretty expensive box based on GWs established pricing schema, which isnt really helpful for what is essentially a horde faction, as GW will have you paying for the (rather substantial) excess of plastic/parts that you aren't using every time you want to build a regular squad of guardsmen, etc.
Kanluwen wrote: The rumored contents for the DKoK range:
-Grenadiers/Engineers(box)
-Death Riders of Krieg(box)
-Heavy Weapons Team(large clamshell/small box)
-Grenadier/Engineer Officer(clamshell)
-Quartermaster with Servitors(large clamshell)
-Death Rider Officer/Commissar(large clamshell/box)
-Tank Commander Accessories(large clamshell)
From what it has been sounding like, they're not interested in "just" doing boxes. They want to let Guard players also have the capability to have an elite contingent that isn't just Tempestus.
Additionally, the rumor isn't just "new Cadians". It's a redone Cadians box(and yes, that rumor came out after the additional sprue was released), plastic Kasrkin, and a new tank. The tank is purportedly something that's been in the lore but not never had rules before--which has been making me think it's something Urdeshi from the Gaunt's Ghosts novels.
And as a couple of further adds:
There's been some reliable rumors on Squats returning. There had been a rumor way back when Astra Militarum was first released that the namechange was going to be associated with bringing in more Auxilia stuff--and a rumor was that Squats would be making their way in via that route.
Regarding Heavy Weapon Teams, there were some early 8E rumours that the Special/Heavy list would see a shakeup for Guard. It didn't happen...but neither did any of the rumored model releases at the time. One of the rumors was that we'd see Rapiers and Sabre Defense Platforms making it into the codex...that might be coming around this time. I've been speculating something fierce about the lack of Heavy Weapons Team frames being packaged into the repacked Cadian box and will continue to do so. The Brood Brothers box has been repacked into the new box styles so is going to hang around for awhile and has those same sprues packed in with a Cadian box and a GSC upgrade frame.
The rumor about redone cadians predates the release of the cadian upgrade sprue. The most recent Squat rumor came from the same source (who has otherwise been 100% reliable), but has nothing to do with the Astra Militarum name change that occurred some years back.
The DKoK range sounds overly optimistic IMO. Would love it if it were true (I want guard cavalry back damnit), but if GW is planning on supporting multiple ranges of guard to the same extent then its going to massively bloat the SKU count for just one faction of the game well beyond anything else. I would have to imagine that they would try to consolidate as much as possible together to limit the number of separate products that would be needed to support it. I would think the Officers, Quartermaster w/ Servitors and Tank Commander might be a single "Heroes of the Death Korps" type box rather than separate clamshells, etc.
The most recent Squat rumor came from the same source (who has otherwise been 100% reliable), but has nothing to do with the Astra Militarum name change that occurred some years back.
Never said that the most recent Squat rumor was explicitly tied to that namechange...just that there have been Squat rumours off and on for a loooooooooong time, and some more reliable sources started talking relatively seriously about them when the AM namechange dropped. There was a few mentions circa 7E that there would be Squat artillery pieces coming but nothing manifested.
I know I had a huge wall of text, so I can understand the confusion.
The DKoK range sounds overly optimistic IMO. Would love it if it were true (I want guard cavalry back damnit), but if GW is planning on supporting multiple ranges of guard to the same extent then its going to massively bloat the SKU count for just one faction of the game well beyond anything else. I would have to imagine that they would try to consolidate as much as possible together to limit the number of separate products that would be needed to support it. I would think the Officers, Quartermaster w/ Servitors and Tank Commander might be a single "Heroes of the Death Korps" type box rather than separate clamshells, etc.
I'm in agreement that it sounds bloat-y, but remember that GW isn't afraid to keep some stuff as Direct Only or outright just do it as a "splash release" before having it become repacked with something else.
Having the Grenadier/Engineer officer as an option for a "regular" clamshell blister, the Quartermaster w/ Servitors as a "large" blister, and the Tank Commander upgradey bits as an initial splash release that later comes out as a "Death Korps Leman Russ"? Or putting the Tank Accessories into a Combat Patrol set that includes a LRBT?
That's way more believable. Especially in light of them potentially thinking ahead to how to set up "buy-ins" for people starting the army.
After what we saw today for the Guardians though, I still remain convinced that we're going to see Something Big happening with Guard. That's now the closest Guard Infantry Squad equivalent unit dropped from being "cardboard armor" to "carapace armor". That alone is a huge thing I haven't seen many people commenting on.
Im assuming it will translate to a price cut for guard squads. I really struggle to imagine how GW can buff guard while keeping them as the baseline "poor bloody infantry" faction of the game, so a price cut is almost the only way forward.
I'm assuming that it will be a lot more synergistic play, ala GSC or the new Tau.
And Conscripts(which have been a rumored kit, mind you) being the cheapest troops but the worst. Unless you're Cadians with the Whiteshields stratagem on them.
Personally Im happy for guard to not have anything fancy going on for them, I like them as a simple straightforward army without the excessive rules layering now common to other factions. Personally, I also have trouble imagining how they could meaningfully buff guard into balance sans points cuts without stepping on the toes of other factions. It really doesn't look like theres much room to buff them before you push them into levels of capability that they shouldn't have in relation to other factions. Like you can't give them +1T because then they are in genetically engineered superhuman/metal man territory. You can't give them a 4+ save, because then tempestus would need a 3+ save to maintain their existing relationship to the rest of the faction, and thats just not going to happen. You can't give them a faction wide 5+ invul, because then that puts them on parity with Thousand Sons magic shenanigans. You can't give them army wide damage reduction, because they're 1 wound models. You can't give them an extra wound... well, I guess you can, but that would be sheer madness. etc. etc. etc.
Yet we know they probably won't get a price cut, because Thousand Sons and Death Guard cultists are 5ppm, as are Gretchin (which have the possibly unique distinction of being the only unit in the game thats worse than a conscript). It would be hard to justify dropping conscripts to 3-4ppm or guardsmen to 4-5ppm in relation to those other units (and yes I realize that points comparisons across factions are largely meaningless as you need to take buffs and synergies into account, but guardsmen get a lot more tools to help them than gretchin and cultists do) to try to level the army out on the power curve.
chaos0xomega wrote: Personally Im happy for guard to not have anything fancy going on for them, I like them as a simple straightforward army without the excessive rules layering now common to other factions.
Like...are we reading two different books? Because the "rules layering now common to other factions" basically was there from the outset in Guard. Orders are a beautiful example of this.
Personally, I also have trouble imagining how they could meaningfully buff guard into balance sans points cuts without stepping on the toes of other factions. It really doesn't look like theres much room to buff them before you push them into levels of capability that they shouldn't have in relation to other factions. Like you can't give them +1T because then they are in genetically engineered superhuman/metal man territory. You can't give them a 4+ save, because then tempestus would need a 3+ save to maintain their existing relationship to the rest of the faction, and thats just not going to happen.
Tempestus having a 4+ save vs a Cadian or Krieg has always been weird. That isn't layers and layers of armor like you saw with the Kasrkin or that ridiculous chestplate like the gasmask troopers.
But there is a lot of room to mess with Tempestus and Infantry Squads though. Tempestus alone had a whole book filled with info about their gadgets and gizmos. The Martyr's Gift Field Service Medi-Kit(which freaking has bionic limbs in it!) is a good example of this. Their armor having in-built chemdispensers. Etc. Etc.
Infantry Squads, like I've said godknowshowmanytimesnow, need to be revised to reflect what the models are. You wouldn't let someone play Marauders as Chaos Warriors and in some instances the differences in kit are just as dramatic there. That alone is something that can be tweaked.
You can't give them a faction wide 5+ invul, because then that puts them on parity with Thousand Sons magic shenanigans. You can't give them army wide damage reduction, because they're 1 wound models. You can't give them an extra wound... well, I guess you can, but that would be sheer madness. etc. etc. etc.
You can totally give them damage reduction while in cover or things like that.
Yet we know they probably won't get a price cut, because Thousand Sons and Death Guard cultists are 5ppm, as are Gretchin (which have the possibly unique distinction of being the only unit in the game thats worse than a conscript). It would be hard to justify dropping conscripts to 3-4ppm or guardsmen to 4-5ppm in relation to those other units (and yes I realize that points comparisons across factions are largely meaningless as you need to take buffs and synergies into account, but guardsmen get a lot more tools to help them than gretchin and cultists do) to try to level the army out on the power curve.
We don't know what they will get. For all we know, they're going to do a bunch of the things I've been wishlisting about for years and Guard Infantry Squads are going to be 6-7PPM but be an actual terror for people even when they don't just run around with plasma blobs.
1 - points cuts, which are problematic for half our army
2 - output & durability boosts.
I think Guard play (ruleswise) fine right now, it's not great, but it still works.
55 points for a guard squad is fine, if the output could be boosted. A LRBT would be fine if we granted them a 5+++ and boosted their output by 150%. Glass Cannons have worked for DE, it can work for us too.
The biggest problem we have is the amount of VPs we give up for our units, but there are solutions for those as well. Drop Chimera chassis to 9W, boost LRBTs to 14. Allows us to combat squad our infantry & vet squads. If orders are an aura, or chain like they do today, that would be an indirect boost to durability and reduction in VPs granted.
There are solutions to these, but it does require a shift in thinking. Otherwise we're just an overly expensive and underperforming AdMech.
1 - points cuts, which are problematic for half our army
2 - output & durability boosts.
I think Guard play (ruleswise) fine right now, it's not great, but it still works.
55 points for a guard squad is fine, if the output could be boosted. A LRBT would be fine if we granted them a 5+++ and boosted their output by 150%. Glass Cannons have worked for DE, it can work for us too.
The biggest problem we have is the amount of VPs we give up for our units, but there are solutions for those as well. Drop Chimera chassis to 9W, boost LRBTs to 14. Allows us to combat squad our infantry & vet squads. If orders are an aura, or chain like they do today, that would be an indirect boost to durability and reduction in VPs granted.
There are solutions to these, but it does require a shift in thinking. Otherwise we're just an overly expensive and underperforming AdMech.
chaos0xomega wrote: You can't give them a 4+ save, because then tempestus would need a 3+ save to maintain their existing relationship to the rest of the faction, and thats just not going to happen.
Crusaders are suppose to have carapace armour, and have now been given a 3+ save. Anything is possible sadly.
BlackoCatto wrote:
I think it's been very clear they don't work.
What doesn't work?
Jarms48 wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote: You can't give them a 4+ save, because then tempestus would need a 3+ save to maintain their existing relationship to the rest of the faction, and thats just not going to happen.
Crusaders are suppose to have carapace armour, and have now been given a 3+ save. Anything is possible sadly.
So why can't they have the same Storm Shield as Marines? +1 Armor Sv/ and a 4++. Then they are still wearing Carapace armor, and have 3+/4++.
Crusaders get a 3+ for their shields, which tempestus dont have.
Im not sure how the LRBT proposal changes anything? Youre still buying large quantities of leman russes either way. If theyre forced to squadron GW will actually probably give them a small point discount which is not really to your benefit.
chaos0xomega wrote: Crusaders get a 3+ for their shields, which tempestus dont have.
Im not sure how the LRBT proposal changes anything? Youre still buying large quantities of leman russes either way. If theyre forced to squadron GW will actually probably give them a small point discount which is not really to your benefit.
That's entirely predicated on what assumptions you're making. If GW requires that with no fixes, then you're right and GW is beating a dead Rough Rider Platoon.
However, if you make the assumption that GW has fixed LRBTs and Orders, then I can see them requiring 3 LRBTS in a squadron and only allowing 1 TC per LRBT squadron (preferably without taking up a force org slot). Then a slight discount on LRBTs would be soooo sweet. Tau could then suck my big D...emo Cannon.
brainpsyk wrote: So why can't they have the same Storm Shield as Marines? +1 Armor Sv/ and a 4++. Then they are still wearing Carapace armor, and have 3+/4++.
That's exactly what they did have, the Guard Crusaders still have that. I'm guessing GW want to limit access to storm shields. They did the same thing for Custodes, changed them to something else too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos0xomega wrote: Crusaders get a 3+ for their shields, which tempestus dont have.
You're incorrect bud, that's the old Guard ones. Not the updated Sister ones, which the profile will 100% move to. They have a base 3+ save and a 4++ from the shield.
its the same difference, they just cut out the middleman and made the base save 3+ instead of saying its a 4+ with a special rule that gives it a +1 to saves.
chaos0xomega wrote: its the same difference, they just cut out the middleman and made the base save 3+ instead of saying its a 4+ with a special rule that gives it a +1 to saves.
Stormshields never gave +1 to saves until the 9th edition SM codex. Changing their shield from a storm shield and giving them a 3+ is 100% intentional.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'd love to see all IG T8 vehicles like LRBTs get a rule where they have to be a full unit of 3. A full squad. No more cheap T8 spam.
That's... terrible. For smaller games that's absolutely wretched, but even beyond that, but forcing _all_ guard players to go all or nothing on tanks is just unpleasant. GW doesn't need to be dictating builds. Particularly not unfluffy ones.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'd love to see all IG T8 vehicles like LRBTs get a rule where they have to be a full unit of 3. A full squad. No more cheap T8 spam.
That's... terrible. For smaller games that's absolutely wretched, but even beyond that, but forcing _all_ guard players to go all or nothing on tanks is just unpleasant. GW doesn't need to be dictating builds. Particularly not unfluffy ones.
It's funny, can you point me to a list in the last two editions that used less than 3 LR? It's easily the best unit of the guard, with a T8 platform that can dish out stupid levels of S10 dd6 firepower in full payload. Tank Commanders with Punisher cannons are broken for the price they pay. It's very telling that you think you should be allowed to take two single models of the best unit in the book, but forcing them to take a unit of 3 is suddenly too many. Once they hit the table they become single units anyway, so this really changes nothing but the amount that the UNIT costs, vs the model.
I actually haven't seen any lists that use any standard Russes at all. I've seen tank commanders paired with the artillery tanks, but that isn't the point.
As for what it changes, it alters the feel and organization of guard lists. I don't care what units _you_ think are too strong, or the overall unit cost. I care about people (including myself) being able to take a single tank to supplement a guard force, rather than throw ~500 points or take no Russes at all (other than the ridiculous tank commanders, which your proposal doesn't affect in any way whatsoever).
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'd love to see all IG T8 vehicles like LRBTs get a rule where they have to be a full unit of 3. A full squad. No more cheap T8 spam.
That's... terrible. For smaller games that's absolutely wretched, but even beyond that, but forcing _all_ guard players to go all or nothing on tanks is just unpleasant. GW doesn't need to be dictating builds. Particularly not unfluffy ones.
Yeah, mandatory squadrons of 3 is a bit much, but Guard feel like a faction that should be able to get more out of every one of their FOC slots, so maybe 1-3 for all vehicle units.
I fully admit I don't have a good suggestion for fixing Guard platoons to streamline them better for 9th. It was fine for building an army in something like Battlescribe but honestly for new players I can see how it could be an issue that GW wants to remove.
On a different note I'd like to see Ogryn and Multilasers to be good. No idea how to fix the abhumans, but the Multilasers could either go to D2 (to be a straight side grade with the heavy bolter) or get a higher volume of fire to make it a dedicated anti-horde weapon. It just seems strange that such a staple weapon of the Guard (being in basically every vehicle kit the Guard have) is so meh.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: It's funny, can you point me to a list in the last two editions that used less than 3 LR? It's easily the best unit of the guard, with a T8 platform that can dish out stupid levels of S10 dd6 firepower in full payload. Tank Commanders with Punisher cannons are broken for the price they pay. It's very telling that you think you should be allowed to take two single models of the best unit in the book, but forcing them to take a unit of 3 is suddenly too many. Once they hit the table they become single units anyway, so this really changes nothing but the amount that the UNIT costs, vs the model.
Leman Russes are bad... You know that, right? No-one takes a single Leman Russ in competitive play. In competitive play you only see Tank Commanders. Which, yes, the Tank Commander is one of the best units in an otherwise bad codex. Punisher variants also suck. The only variants worth taking are Demolishers, which can't get Full Payload, and Battle Tanks, which also can't get Full Payload. The only reason people even take Battle Tanks is 1) they're Cadian and want Gatekeeper, or 2) don't want to risk their tank being locked in melee.
Honestly, your suggestion is trash. T8 platforms aren't incredibly durable. What makes them durable is GW giving new T8 platforms a ton of durability buffs, like -1 Damage, a 2+ Save, and a 5++ Invulnerable.
If you actually wanted a Leman Russ to be competitively costed. You'd be looking at:
- Vanquisher: 115 points, with hull heavy bolter.
- Eradicator and Exterminator: 120 points, with hull heavy bolter.
- Executioner: 125 points, with hull heavy bolter.
- Battle Tank: 130 points, with hull heavy bolter.
- Demolisher and Punisher: 135 points, with hull heavy bolter.
These are all directly compared to the Ad-Mech Dunecrawler, which in itself isn't even considered a meta vehicle. They have very similar levels of durability, and the Dunecrawler is better than all variants up to the Executioner. This is also be buffs, like Dogma and Doctrina.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: It's funny, can you point me to a list in the last two editions that used less than 3 LR? It's easily the best unit of the guard, with a T8 platform that can dish out stupid levels of S10 dd6 firepower in full payload. Tank Commanders with Punisher cannons are broken for the price they pay. It's very telling that you think you should be allowed to take two single models of the best unit in the book, but forcing them to take a unit of 3 is suddenly too many. Once they hit the table they become single units anyway, so this really changes nothing but the amount that the UNIT costs, vs the model.
Leman Russes are bad... You know that, right? No-one takes a single Leman Russ in competitive play. In competitive play you only see Tank Commanders. Which, yes, the Tank Commander is one of the best units in an otherwise bad codex. Punisher variants also suck. The only variants worth taking are Demolishers, which can't get Full Payload, and Battle Tanks, which also can't get Full Payload. The only reason people even take Battle Tanks is 1) they're Cadian and want Gatekeeper, or 2) don't want to risk their tank being locked in melee.
Honestly, your suggestion is trash. T8 platforms aren't incredibly durable. What makes them durable is GW giving new T8 platforms a ton of durability buffs, like -1 Damage, a 2+ Save, and a 5++ Invulnerable.
If you actually wanted a Leman Russ to be competitively costed. You'd be looking at:
- Vanquisher: 115 points, with hull heavy bolter.
- Eradicator and Exterminator: 120 points, with hull heavy bolter.
- Executioner: 125 points, with hull heavy bolter.
- Battle Tank: 130 points, with hull heavy bolter.
- Demolisher and Punisher: 135 points, with hull heavy bolter.
These are all directly compared to the Ad-Mech Dunecrawler, which in itself isn't even considered a meta vehicle. They have very similar levels of durability, and the Dunecrawler is better than all variants up to the Executioner. This is also be buffs, like Dogma and Doctrina.
Honestly, I apologize if I am getting this wrong, but your solution if I can understand your points, is to LOWER the cost of a platform that can put out 12 S10 AP3 Dd6 shots, plus it's dual HBs, because guard have better units?
It has nothing to do with Meta, it's just a foolish amount of firepower to give a player for less than half what other factions have to pay for it. Also, it's power directly affects at least 1 other faction, GSC, possibly a second, if Traitor Guard rumors are to be believed. It's still a 130ppm vehicle that puts out insane fire power, with double shooting, hail of fire, etc. Even in base form, no other unit in the game puts out 6-12 S8 shots per turn at 72", for 130 points.
Honestly, I apologize if I am getting this wrong, but your solution if I can understand your points, is to LOWER the cost of a platform that can put out 12 S10 AP3 Dd6 shots, plus it's dual HBs, because guard have better units?
It has nothing to do with Meta, it's just a foolish amount of firepower to give a player for less than half what other factions have to pay for it. Also, it's power directly affects at least 1 other faction, GSC, possibly a second, if Traitor Guard rumors are to be believed. It's still a 130ppm vehicle that puts out insane fire power, with double shooting, hail of fire, etc. Even in base form, no other unit in the game puts out 6-12 S8 shots per turn at 72", for 130 points.
I think you're forgetting the BS4 on the LRBT.
Jarms48 is right. A 115 point Onager dunecrawler with Twin Phospor blasters does median 4.0 damage, 4.8 mean damage against intercessors. The LRBT with BC does median/mean of 3.0, and that's with 2d6 shots. A LRBT with Demo Cannon does median 6, mean 6.8 damage vs. a T6 tank, while the 115 point Onager with a Neutron Laser does median 5, avg 5.7.
Considering 3 Multi-Meltas do the same damage to the Onager and LRBT, if anything, Jarms48 is charging too much. It should probably be closer to 105 for the BC & 125 for the DC, that's just to match unit-to-unit, and the Onager isn't even that good, while the LRBT is supposed to be the pride & joy/poster child of the entire AM codex.
Honestly, I apologize if I am getting this wrong, but your solution if I can understand your points, is to LOWER the cost of a platform that can put out 12 S10 AP3 Dd6 shots, plus it's dual HBs, because guard have better units?
It has nothing to do with Meta, it's just a foolish amount of firepower to give a player for less than half what other factions have to pay for it. Also, it's power directly affects at least 1 other faction, GSC, possibly a second, if Traitor Guard rumors are to be believed. It's still a 130ppm vehicle that puts out insane fire power, with double shooting, hail of fire, etc. Even in base form, no other unit in the game puts out 6-12 S8 shots per turn at 72", for 130 points.
So why aren't IG dominating the tournaments then with their foolish amount of firepower?
Because they suck. And are destroyed at will.
Making just stupid 3 slots is stupid idea. Unless you mean 3 for price of 1
Slots of 3 is silly since it means that the codex can't scale points levels properly for smaller games, plus it means forcing people to buy three kits just to fill one slot. 1-3 per slot is better and would be the more appropriate solution.
chaos0xomega wrote: its the same difference, they just cut out the middleman and made the base save 3+ instead of saying its a 4+ with a special rule that gives it a +1 to saves.
Stormshields never gave +1 to saves until the 9th edition SM codex. Changing their shield from a storm shield and giving them a 3+ is 100% intentional.
Whatever man, they've always had a 3+ save whether it was armor or invulnerable or whatever it was in the past, this isn't really anything new, just a slight change from what it was previously.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'd love to see all IG T8 vehicles like LRBTs get a rule where they have to be a full unit of 3. A full squad. No more cheap T8 spam.
That's... terrible. For smaller games that's absolutely wretched, but even beyond that, but forcing _all_ guard players to go all or nothing on tanks is just unpleasant. GW doesn't need to be dictating builds. Particularly not unfluffy ones.
It's funny, can you point me to a list in the last two editions that used less than 3 LR? It's easily the best unit of the guard, with a T8 platform that can dish out stupid levels of S10 dd6 firepower in full payload. Tank Commanders with Punisher cannons are broken for the price they pay. It's very telling that you think you should be allowed to take two single models of the best unit in the book, but forcing them to take a unit of 3 is suddenly too many. Once they hit the table they become single units anyway, so this really changes nothing but the amount that the UNIT costs, vs the model.
I've never used Leman Russ's in any capacity in any of my Guard lists, ever... but in that sense the change wouldn't impact me at all... still a terrible idea though.
Honestly, I apologize if I am getting this wrong, but your solution if I can understand your points, is to LOWER the cost of a platform that can put out 12 S10 AP3 Dd6 shots, plus it's dual HBs, because guard have better units?
It seems you must have some really bad experiences at the hands of guard players... because guard struggle to win games and Leman Russes are horrendously overpriced for what they do, both in terms of how rapidly they die and how little impact they actually make. They *can* put out 12 S10 AP3 Dd6 shots if you roll hot and everything goes your way, but on average they aren't doing anywhere near that.
Honestly, I apologize if I am getting this wrong, but your solution if I can understand your points, is to LOWER the cost of a platform that can put out 12 S10 AP3 Dd6 shots, plus it's dual HBs, because guard have better units?
It seems you must have some really bad experiences at the hands of guard players... because guard struggle to win games and Leman Russes are horrendously overpriced for what they do, both in terms of how rapidly they die and how little impact they actually make. They *can* put out 12 S10 AP3 Dd6 shots if you roll hot and everything goes your way, but on average they aren't doing anywhere near that.
QFT.
12 S10 shots isn't a big deal with BS4. Quick napkin math shows the chances getting 12 shots that hit are 1:140,000, while the chance of rolling 2 shots and both of them whiffing are closer to 1:140. So for every time you hit with 12 shots, you'll have completely whiffed 1000 times. "12 S10 AP3..." isn't even an argument.
As someone who plays plays pretty much exclusively 25 power games due to time constraints forcing 3 tanks would mean I would never field a Russ again as that is more then 25 on it's own and I'd have no way to fill out the required HQ and Troop slots. Whilst I acknowledge I'm in a minority in only playing smaller games I also know I'm not alone in that. A solution that cuts out a section of the player base from being able to use a unit is not a solution.
On a different note I'd like to see Ogryn and Multilasers to be good. No idea how to fix the abhumans, but the Multilasers could either go to D2 (to be a straight side grade with the heavy bolter) or get a higher volume of fire to make it a dedicated anti-horde weapon. It just seems strange that such a staple weapon of the Guard (being in basically every vehicle kit the Guard have) is so meh.
Multilasers definitely need a fix (though honestly they only live on chimeras and Sentinels (and the latter only in theory)) And personally, my chimeras only have multi-lasers because I bought them before they recut the kit and added HBs and heavy flamers to the turret options. I honestly expect they'll do what they did for the eldar scatter laser and increase the shot count - the only reason to take the current version is to not pay +10 points.
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One fear I have for the new codex is the 'not on the sprue' removal of options. Like track guards for hellhounds, which let you laugh at degrading profiles all day long.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'd love to see all IG T8 vehicles like LRBTs get a rule where they have to be a full unit of 3. A full squad. No more cheap T8 spam.
That's... terrible. For smaller games that's absolutely wretched, but even beyond that, but forcing _all_ guard players to go all or nothing on tanks is just unpleasant. GW doesn't need to be dictating builds. Particularly not unfluffy ones.
Yea that is a terribly dumb idea.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Btw it is also d6 shots, 2d6 if getting to shoot a second time.
chaos0xomega wrote: Whatever man, they've always had a 3+ save whether it was armor or invulnerable or whatever it was in the past, this isn't really anything new, just a slight change from what it was previously.
Sorry bud, also incorrect. Crusaders go as far back as the 3rd edition Witchhunters codex, possibly further. Where surprise, surprise had a 4+ armour save and a 4+ invulnerable from their suppression shields.
brainpsyk wrote: Jarms48 is right. A 115 point Onager dunecrawler with Twin Phospor blasters does median 4.0 damage, 4.8 mean damage against intercessors. The LRBT with BC does median/mean of 3.0, and that's with 2d6 shots. A LRBT with Demo Cannon does median 6, mean 6.8 damage vs. a T6 tank, while the 115 point Onager with a Neutron Laser does median 5, avg 5.7.
Considering 3 Multi-Meltas do the same damage to the Onager and LRBT, if anything, Jarms48 is charging too much. It should probably be closer to 105 for the BC & 125 for the DC, that's just to match unit-to-unit, and the Onager isn't even that good, while the LRBT is supposed to be the pride & joy/poster child of the entire AM codex.
Yep, I purposely overvalue them because GW has this hidden T8 tax for some reason. Though as we've discussed before I also assume that TC's would be made better buffing characters.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Honestly, I apologize if I am getting this wrong, but your solution if I can understand your points, is to LOWER the cost of a platform that can put out 12 S10 AP3 Dd6 shots, plus it's dual HBs, because guard have better units?
I think you really don't understand Guard. Did you even read what I said? Only a SINGLE vehicle is getting max 12 shots, for 2 CP against only VEHICLES. A leman russ also only has a single heavy bolter, you have to pay for 2 additional heavy bolters at a heavily inflated cost.
Did you have some bad experiences against Armoured Companies back in 3rd to 5th edition or something? Cause Guard are trash now. We're bottom tier competitively, even our best units are only okay compared to other factions.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: It has nothing to do with Meta, it's just a foolish amount of firepower to give a player for less than half what other factions have to pay for it. Also, it's power directly affects at least 1 other faction, GSC, possibly a second, if Traitor Guard rumors are to be believed. It's still a 130ppm vehicle that puts out insane fire power, with double shooting, hail of fire, etc. Even in base form, no other unit in the game puts out 6-12 S8 shots per turn at 72", for 130 points.
Nothing foolish about it. Whatever shots you roll instantly gets its potential cut in half by BS4+. Leman Russes aren't durable anymore. Leman Russes aren't damaging anymore. They're bad units. Just like 90% of the Guard codex right now.
I'd be happy if baneblades were worth fielding. Would like Chimeras to be viable. Hate to lose Crusaders but I wager they take them out and leave them with sisters. (bought and detailed 10 of the bastards). Just don't want anything squatted
RegularGuy wrote: I'd be happy if baneblades were worth fielding. Would like Chimeras to be viable. Hate to lose Crusaders but I wager they take them out and leave them with sisters. (bought and detailed 10 of the bastards). Just don't want anything squatted
Honestly I'm curious how drastically the army may be reworked. We've been seeing a lot of subfaction reworks and regiments may see a drastic change up from where they are now. Don't get me wrong, the changes have been largely positive but I'll also admit that they could shift armies a fair bit too. It put me on the fence about wargear loadouts for a bit before I decided to just try and build everything so I can have an army that's a little more resistant to the way the game swings.
I mean Guard have one of the widest ranges in the game when it comes to options, so being able to flex into them as you see fit, or as metas shift is never a bad plan.
That's been one of the hard parts of coming on in the beginning of 8th for guard. By the time you've collected and painted what you wanted to field. The rules/meta/balance have moved on and you need something else, and there's a lot of something else. The bright side is eventually after you've collected, built, and detailed everything over the course of years and several editions, you're mostly future proof. Unless they squat something, or add something totally new I suppose. Ah well. Suffering through is the guard way.
RegularGuy wrote: I'd be happy if baneblades were worth fielding. Would like Chimeras to be viable. Hate to lose Crusaders but I wager they take them out and leave them with sisters. (bought and detailed 10 of the bastards). Just don't want anything squatted
Chimeras will be much more viable once GW nerf MMM!.
As for brainstorming what GW will do with them. I could imagine something like:
- Multi-lasers becoming heavy 6. Look at Burst Cannons and Scatter Lasers.
- Heavy Bolter and Heavy Flamer turret upgrades becoming free, I imagine with the above they'll just remove the cost and it'll simply become player preference.
- Better vehicle upgrades. This will affect all Guard vehicles, but I could see something like augur arrays becoming once per turn rather than once per game, dozer blades giving the breachable keyword and maybe ignoring difficult ground, etc.
- I could see all Guard vehicles built on the Chimera, Leman Russ, and larger chassis' getting some kind of Ramshackle or flat -1 damage ability. If both versions of the GSC Goliath get a -1, which are just civilian Imperial vehicles, I don't see why Imperial military vehicles wouldn't.
Baneblades on the other hand need a ton of things fixed:
- A 2+ save for starters. Still baffling that the Russ got it and the Baneblades didn't.
- The same -1 damage as said above, or a flat -1 if other vehicles only get a Ramshackle equivalent.
- More wounds, at least 28 maybe even 30.
- Better BS, at least 3+, it always seemed incredibly strange that Tank Commanders have a better BS than Baneblades. Baneblades are crewed by some of the most elite tankers in the Imperial Guard.
- Better weapon profiles. If railguns can ignore invuls, why can't volcano and quake cannons?
Quick question for speculation, what will become of the metal regiments?
Somehow GW managed to give them rules, just in time for the 20+ year old models to go OOP.
Logic would be not to give them rules or show them, just like the Necromunda Spiders disappeared, but (as I mentioned earlier) I really hope they'll each get a 1 sprue box that covers most options.
GW's logic would be "they already have like 3 or 4 Baneblades and aren't likely to buy more, better to give rules upgrades to the Baner Blades, a brand new model coming in 2023..."
More likely that the rules updates we saw in the Dataslate are things that they tested and found wouldn't also needs points changes to implement before the next codex so they pushed them out early as a patch.
I think theres a few paths they could take on regiments
They could "genericize" them - I.E. no more "Cadian Shock Troops", "Catachan Jungle Fighters", "Death Korps of Krieg", "Vostroyan Firstborn", etc. Instead you have "Shock Regiment", "Jungle Fighter Regiment", "Siege Regiment", "Veteran Regiment", etc. This theoretically frees up the ability for players to use their Cadian or Vostroyan or Death Korps minis, etc. in a build other than the one associated with the miniatures being used, and cuts them out from having to continue to support discontinued metal/finecast miniatures.
They could cut them - No more Mordians, Tallarn, or Vostroyans, etc. Only the regiments with plastic model ranges remain, joined by whatever new regiments get pumped out in plastic which gives us at least 3 options in the book with the potential for some more (1-2 based on rumors). This would more or less keep Guard where they are/on par with other factions. Might potentially suck for you if your guard faction is squatted, but hopefully the subfaction playstyles are diverse and varied enough that you can repurpose your Mordians or Tallarn (or Vostroyans :gulp: ) as one of the others, etc.
They could "double up" on them. I see no reason why they can't have "Cadian Shock Troops" and "Cadian Remnant Veterans" as two separate regiments, likewise "Catachan Jungle Fighters" and "Catachan Air Cavalry", or "Death Korps Siege Regiment" and "Death Korps Assault Regiment" or something.
They could keep them + supplement them - Guard codex remains mostly generic, includes a bunch of regiment subfactions that you can choose from which are no longer necessarily tied to specific models, etc. Then release Codex Supplements for the regiments in plastic, i.e. Kasrkin go in Codex Supplement: Cadian Shock Troops, Death Riders and Engineers in Codex Supplement: Death Korps of Krieg, etc.
Or some combination thereof.
We know that at a minimum we will still have Cadians, Catachans, and now Death Korps of Krieg, with the possibility of 1-2 more based on the reliable rumor dump. Based on the DKK rumors of them getting all these specialist units and special cavalry (a unit which I very much doubt GW is going to replicate for every regiment), I am inclined to think that GW won't be genericizing anything anytime soon. Likewise, I would be surprised if the plastic regiments, at least, did *not* receive Codex Supplements.
If baneblades get anything, it will possibly be the Stormsurge treatment. "If remain in place this turn, then "x" can be rerolled/counts as "Y"" or something akin to a special rule that makes them somewhat viable. I also think just based off the way 9th is going you will see IG LOWs come way down in points cost. If a SS is 330ish points, I don't see how a BB is more, given no Invuln, and weaker gun profiles.
I could see the BB getting an invul save, or a reduced damage rule to represent it's toughness like how titanic vehicles ignored the normal damage table because they're too big and hard to break.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Quick question for speculation, what will become of the metal regiments?
Somehow GW managed to give them rules, just in time for the 20+ year old models to go OOP.
Logic would be not to give them rules or show them, just like the Necromunda Spiders disappeared, but (as I mentioned earlier) I really hope they'll each get a 1 sprue box that covers most options.
GW's logic would be "they already have like 3 or 4 Baneblades and aren't likely to buy more, better to give rules upgrades to the Baner Blades, a brand new model coming in 2023..."
I wouldn't be surprised if they got reduced to paintjobs like Chaos legions were from 4th to 7th Edition. You may use your old Tallarns just fine, but we'll just sell you Cadians to paint beige from now on.
I was going to post something similar, basically "Guard are really the only faction where subfactions are tied to the models you field rather than the paintjob" - but then I deleted it as its not entirely true with regards to the Space Marines subfactions. Then again, Space Marines could be the exception that proves the rule.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'd love to see all IG T8 vehicles like LRBTs get a rule where they have to be a full unit of 3. A full squad. No more cheap T8 spam.
That's... terrible. For smaller games that's absolutely wretched, but even beyond that, but forcing _all_ guard players to go all or nothing on tanks is just unpleasant. GW doesn't need to be dictating builds. Particularly not unfluffy ones.
It's funny, can you point me to a list in the last two editions that used less than 3 LR? It's easily the best unit of the guard, with a T8 platform that can dish out stupid levels of S10 dd6 firepower in full payload. Tank Commanders with Punisher cannons are broken for the price they pay. It's very telling that you think you should be allowed to take two single models of the best unit in the book, but forcing them to take a unit of 3 is suddenly too many. Once they hit the table they become single units anyway, so this really changes nothing but the amount that the UNIT costs, vs the model.
Yeah I remember reading all this LR spam lists that have just been dominating the scene. I heard the top 8 of LVO was ready to concede any game where they lined up against these toughness 8 beasts. LR power is clearly why they felt the need to buff custods….. what can super humans do against such reckless hate
chaos0xomega wrote: I was going to post something similar, basically "Guard are really the only faction where subfactions are tied to the models you field rather than the paintjob" - but then I deleted it as its not entirely true with regards to the Space Marines subfactions. Then again, Space Marines could be the exception that proves the rule.
Guard is probably the most tied to models. but Chaos comes close. I mean yeah you can paint your chaos marines green and call them plague marines, but really you want the bellies and the pickle helms and all that. Same with Khorne bunny ears, and 1000 Sons bunny ears and obviously there's nothing to be done for noise marines, either you have a bunch of demonic guitars for them or they're just purple marines.
Still I find it hysterical that GW spend 2 decades treating all guard the same, no matter what tailor they use, then suddenly decided they need faction rules, only to take 2/3 of the army OOP. Left hand meet right hand, you have a lot to talk about.
I've painted up desert style Cadians and no one seems to mind if I run them as Tallarn due to paint job or Cadian due to models; but I doubt I would get away with Vostroyans! So it's not so much the models that the regiments are tied to but it is the theme/paintjob of the army. Paint a model in cold gear and put it on an ice/snow base and that pretty much sets what it can be.
Like the look of those Krieg rumours if true. Hopefully they will come with unmasked as well as masked heads so they can be more easily integrated into other Guard armies. I don't much fancy putting the current Cadian heads on a more accurately scaled body.
There are zero unmasked heads for the Krieg in the box we got...so I wouldn't expect that to be the case going forward.
Personal statement with regards to the whole regiment thing is that I hope we see something more generalized. Being able to take an army archetype, then have your Infantry be drawn up from a specific Regiment, tanks from another Regiment, and Scions from a specific Tempestus Regiment would be a highly interesting set of interplays to have in effect.
Hell, it could even be couched in a way that it would be similar to the Knight Households:
-Choose an Alignment(Imperial, Mechanicus, or Ecclesiarchy)
-Choose a Regiment or custom Regimental Traits that are tied to each of those Alignments
-Choose your army and allies.
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