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 Kanluwen wrote:
Marneus Calgar comes with a bodyguard unit, the Victrix Guard, which are a separate unit.

Fair enough.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Tau Commanders get Crisis Bodyguard Units which still remain a separate unit from them, but do not cost an Elite slot when taken in conjunction with a Commander.

Unlike the above they're treated like regular bodyguards these days. Like both versions of Celestian squads.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I've said before and I'll say again:
Simple fix is for "Heavy Weapon Squads" to be redesigned into 3 types. Mortar Squad, Anti-Tank Squad, and Fire Support Squad.

Also some weapons just do not belong as "Heavy". Looking at you Missile Launchers.

This is exactly how it worked in the 3rd edition codexes. Great system. Means you could have up to 9 HWS's too.

If we are wish listing about heavy weapons squads what about increasing the size of the unit? Instead of 3 teams, why not 6? So the unit size would be 3-6.

And please give us heavy stubber, or dual, or quad heavy stubber options for heavy weapons teams/squads while we're at it!

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Beaker07 wrote:

Was thinking of getting a Cadian Command Squad maybe stick at that might get a DKoK squad - any reason to avoid Cadians

Right now?

Because there's rumors of an actual, fully refreshed/updated kit coming. They come from the same place as calling out the Death Korps with Kommandos as a Kill Team boxed set. There's also rumors of a plastic Kasrkin set coming.

Kasrkin? Heck yeah give me a functional storm trooper army with tanks and other goodies.

That's my main grip about storm troopers as is. They technically have no support other than the valkyrie

Baneblades can now be taken in "Squadrons" and ignore Invulns with their Heavy twin linked Plasma Cannon sponsons.

HWT Mortars are now 36" and D3 shots, but now wounds to all units within 3" of target unit as well.

Command squads now need to taken with a flag, a medic, a radio guy, and a 4th option dependent on regiment.

Chimera Lasgun Arrays will now be Assault 20, S4, ap 2, d1, entirely by mistake, and afterwords will be Heavy 3 s4, ap3, dd3, requiring a third FAQ, where they will just remove Chimera's from the game.

Lehman Russ Vanquishers will be Heavy 1, S9, AP4 4 damage. They will then be FAQ'd back down to S8 AP3 Dd6 drop the lowest. Because we can't have nice things.

Death Strike will have the fly keyword, by accident, but lose the ability to target without LoS.

Wyrdvane Psykers will now be able to be taken in squads of 14, but will require the purchase of 3 separate box sets to complete the entire squad.

/Sarcasm

Wyrdvane Psykers will now be able to be taken in squads of 14, but will require the purchase of 3 separate box sets to complete the entire squad.

/Sarcasm

Um? Back when they were metals (ie, when I bought mine), they were either 3 or 4 to a blister pack.

... and they're actually still sold as 3-packs. Still metal, too.
So, yeah. Not so much sarcasm as actual reality.

Voss wrote:

Wyrdvane Psykers will now be able to be taken in squads of 14, but will require the purchase of 3 separate box sets to complete the entire squad.

/Sarcasm

Um? Back when they were metals (ie, when I bought mine), they were either 3 or 4 to a blister pack.

... and they're actually still sold as 3-packs. Still metal, too.
So, yeah. Not so much sarcasm as actual reality.

But their new Combat patrol box in September will come with 5 OMG!! Wyrdvane Psykers, in their ALL NEW MONOPOSE look, with 1 Chimera, two 5x squads of IG, and 1 CC, and a Lord Commissar. So you still need 3 boxes.

/s

I get that you're trying to be snide about GW's releases and choices, but none of it makes much sense.
Its all either literally true, underpowered by 6th edition's standards (let alone 9th's absurd lethality) or just wacky and baseless beyond GW's worst decisions.

But it seems odd when someone's trying to find out actual rumors (and there are some)

Not a runor, just a guess.
The combat patrol box will be a comoany command, infantry squad, heavy weapon squad, leman russ, and bullgryn. 25PL. Suspect it will come in Krieg

GW has a bad habit of lumping some of their worst performing units into SC boxes, or battle forces to move underselling product. Take a look at the DA/BA boxes. Incursors, Aggressors, Inceptors, which are all useless to those sub factions.

Hell, the SWs came with Reivers, the most useless unit of the entire Primaris lineup.

Do we even have to mention the stupid BT box?

The flip side of that is that the Drukhari combat patrol is killer, the GSC and Custodes boxes
they previewed are solid, the only reason nobody likes the Ork box is because the boyz are the new inferior monopose kits that don't make enough boyz with identical weapons to field an actual squad, the Necron combat patrol is solid but its otherwise a weak faction, the rumored CSM box sounds pretty good, etc. Its really just marines, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons that have awful boxes. Sisters too, arguably, since the minis are the monopose variants.

The rumors say new Cadians and one more regiment (not sure if that's one more plus the DKK or if it means the DKK).

I've thought for a while that Necromunda shows GW could make 6 regiment boxes (or whatever number) for Mordians, Vostroyans, Tallarn etc. Throw some officer options on it and a generic heavy weapon sprue and you've got the whole regiment in a box.

But no rumors of that happening

The rumored contents for the DKoK range:
-Grenadiers/Engineers(box)
-Death Riders of Krieg(box)
-Heavy Weapons Team(large clamshell/small box)
-Grenadier/Engineer Officer(clamshell)
-Quartermaster with Servitors(large clamshell)
-Death Rider Officer/Commissar(large clamshell/box)
-Tank Commander Accessories(large clamshell)

From what it has been sounding like, they're not interested in "just" doing boxes. They want to let Guard players also have the capability to have an elite contingent that isn't just Tempestus.

Additionally, the rumor isn't just "new Cadians". It's a redone Cadians box(and yes, that rumor came out after the additional sprue was released), plastic Kasrkin, and a new tank. The tank is purportedly something that's been in the lore but not never had rules before--which has been making me think it's something Urdeshi from the Gaunt's Ghosts novels.

And as a couple of further adds:
There's been some reliable rumors on Squats returning. There had been a rumor way back when Astra Militarum was first released that the namechange was going to be associated with bringing in more Auxilia stuff--and a rumor was that Squats would be making their way in via that route.

Regarding Heavy Weapon Teams, there were some early 8E rumours that the Special/Heavy list would see a shakeup for Guard. It didn't happen...but neither did any of the rumored model releases at the time. One of the rumors was that we'd see Rapiers and Sabre Defense Platforms making it into the codex...that might be coming around this time. I've been speculating something fierce about the lack of Heavy Weapons Team frames being packaged into the repacked Cadian box and will continue to do so. The Brood Brothers box has been repacked into the new box styles so is going to hang around for awhile and has those same sprues packed in with a Cadian box and a GSC upgrade frame.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
The rumors say new Cadians and one more regiment (not sure if that's one more plus the DKK or if it means the DKK).

I've thought for a while that Necromunda shows GW could make 6 regiment boxes (or whatever number) for Mordians, Vostroyans, Tallarn etc. Throw some officer options on it and a generic heavy weapon sprue and you've got the whole regiment in a box.

But no rumors of that happening

Rumors actually said Cadians and *two* new regiments in the works. We have assumed that one of those regiments is DKK, and the other is still as of yet outstanding. Also indicates Kasrkin are in the works for Cadians.

And yeah, Necromunda x Militarum Tempestus is proof that a single well-designed multikit could adequately service a regiment, potentially allowing you to build Company/Platoon Commanders, command squads, special weapon squads, heavy weapon squads, veteran squads, infantry squads, and conscripts from the same box, with bits to upgrade tank commanders in cuppolas and the like. The problem is - it would probably be a pretty expensive box based on GWs established pricing schema, which isnt really helpful for what is essentially a horde faction, as GW will have you paying for the (rather substantial) excess of plastic/parts that you aren't using every time you want to build a regular squad of guardsmen, etc.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The rumored contents for the DKoK range:
-Grenadiers/Engineers(box)
-Death Riders of Krieg(box)
-Heavy Weapons Team(large clamshell/small box)
-Grenadier/Engineer Officer(clamshell)
-Quartermaster with Servitors(large clamshell)
-Death Rider Officer/Commissar(large clamshell/box)
-Tank Commander Accessories(large clamshell)
From what it has been sounding like, they're not interested in "just" doing boxes. They want to let Guard players also have the capability to have an elite contingent that isn't just Tempestus.
Additionally, the rumor isn't just "new Cadians". It's a redone Cadians box(and yes, that rumor came out after the additional sprue was released), plastic Kasrkin, and a new tank. The tank is purportedly something that's been in the lore but not never had rules before--which has been making me think it's something Urdeshi from the Gaunt's Ghosts novels.
And as a couple of further adds:
There's been some reliable rumors on Squats returning. There had been a rumor way back when Astra Militarum was first released that the namechange was going to be associated with bringing in more Auxilia stuff--and a rumor was that Squats would be making their way in via that route.
Regarding Heavy Weapon Teams, there were some early 8E rumours that the Special/Heavy list would see a shakeup for Guard. It didn't happen...but neither did any of the rumored model releases at the time. One of the rumors was that we'd see Rapiers and Sabre Defense Platforms making it into the codex...that might be coming around this time. I've been speculating something fierce about the lack of Heavy Weapons Team frames being packaged into the repacked Cadian box and will continue to do so. The Brood Brothers box has been repacked into the new box styles so is going to hang around for awhile and has those same sprues packed in with a Cadian box and a GSC upgrade frame.

The rumor about redone cadians predates the release of the cadian upgrade sprue. The most recent Squat rumor came from the same source (who has otherwise been 100% reliable), but has nothing to do with the Astra Militarum name change that occurred some years back.

The DKoK range sounds overly optimistic IMO. Would love it if it were true (I want guard cavalry back damnit), but if GW is planning on supporting multiple ranges of guard to the same extent then its going to massively bloat the SKU count for just one faction of the game well beyond anything else. I would have to imagine that they would try to consolidate as much as possible together to limit the number of separate products that would be needed to support it. I would think the Officers, Quartermaster w/ Servitors and Tank Commander might be a single "Heroes of the Death Korps" type box rather than separate clamshells, etc.

chaos0xomega wrote:

The rumor about redone cadians predates the release of the cadian upgrade sprue.

The rumor list about the release may or may not predate the release of the repacked Cadians which came out in June of 2021(War of Sigmar being the spot where I regularly refer to for screencaps just says "6 months ago"), but it did not predate the reveal of the kit, which was May 7th of 2021.

The most recent Squat rumor came from the same source (who has otherwise been 100% reliable), but has nothing to do with the Astra Militarum name change that occurred some years back.

Never said that the most recent Squat rumor was explicitly tied to that namechange...just that there have been Squat rumours off and on for a loooooooooong time, and some more reliable sources started talking relatively seriously about them when the AM namechange dropped. There was a few mentions circa 7E that there would be Squat artillery pieces coming but nothing manifested.

I know I had a huge wall of text, so I can understand the confusion.

The DKoK range sounds overly optimistic IMO. Would love it if it were true (I want guard cavalry back damnit), but if GW is planning on supporting multiple ranges of guard to the same extent then its going to massively bloat the SKU count for just one faction of the game well beyond anything else. I would have to imagine that they would try to consolidate as much as possible together to limit the number of separate products that would be needed to support it. I would think the Officers, Quartermaster w/ Servitors and Tank Commander might be a single "Heroes of the Death Korps" type box rather than separate clamshells, etc.

I'm in agreement that it sounds bloat-y, but remember that GW isn't afraid to keep some stuff as Direct Only or outright just do it as a "splash release" before having it become repacked with something else.

Having the Grenadier/Engineer officer as an option for a "regular" clamshell blister, the Quartermaster w/ Servitors as a "large" blister, and the Tank Commander upgradey bits as an initial splash release that later comes out as a "Death Korps Leman Russ"? Or putting the Tank Accessories into a Combat Patrol set that includes a LRBT?
That's way more believable. Especially in light of them potentially thinking ahead to how to set up "buy-ins" for people starting the army.

After what we saw today for the Guardians though, I still remain convinced that we're going to see Something Big happening with Guard. That's now the closest Guard Infantry Squad equivalent unit dropped from being "cardboard armor" to "carapace armor". That alone is a huge thing I haven't seen many people commenting on.

I'll believe it when I see it.

Im assuming it will translate to a price cut for guard squads. I really struggle to imagine how GW can buff guard while keeping them as the baseline "poor bloody infantry" faction of the game, so a price cut is almost the only way forward.

I'm assuming that it will be a lot more synergistic play, ala GSC or the new Tau.

And Conscripts(which have been a rumored kit, mind you) being the cheapest troops but the worst. Unless you're Cadians with the Whiteshields stratagem on them.

Personally Im happy for guard to not have anything fancy going on for them, I like them as a simple straightforward army without the excessive rules layering now common to other factions. Personally, I also have trouble imagining how they could meaningfully buff guard into balance sans points cuts without stepping on the toes of other factions. It really doesn't look like theres much room to buff them before you push them into levels of capability that they shouldn't have in relation to other factions. Like you can't give them +1T because then they are in genetically engineered superhuman/metal man territory. You can't give them a 4+ save, because then tempestus would need a 3+ save to maintain their existing relationship to the rest of the faction, and thats just not going to happen. You can't give them a faction wide 5+ invul, because then that puts them on parity with Thousand Sons magic shenanigans. You can't give them army wide damage reduction, because they're 1 wound models. You can't give them an extra wound... well, I guess you can, but that would be sheer madness. etc. etc. etc.

Yet we know they probably won't get a price cut, because Thousand Sons and Death Guard cultists are 5ppm, as are Gretchin (which have the possibly unique distinction of being the only unit in the game thats worse than a conscript). It would be hard to justify dropping conscripts to 3-4ppm or guardsmen to 4-5ppm in relation to those other units (and yes I realize that points comparisons across factions are largely meaningless as you need to take buffs and synergies into account, but guardsmen get a lot more tools to help them than gretchin and cultists do) to try to level the army out on the power curve.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Personally Im happy for guard to not have anything fancy going on for them, I like them as a simple straightforward army without the excessive rules layering now common to other factions.

Like...are we reading two different books? Because the "rules layering now common to other factions" basically was there from the outset in Guard. Orders are a beautiful example of this.

Personally, I also have trouble imagining how they could meaningfully buff guard into balance sans points cuts without stepping on the toes of other factions. It really doesn't look like theres much room to buff them before you push them into levels of capability that they shouldn't have in relation to other factions. Like you can't give them +1T because then they are in genetically engineered superhuman/metal man territory. You can't give them a 4+ save, because then tempestus would need a 3+ save to maintain their existing relationship to the rest of the faction, and thats just not going to happen.

Tempestus having a 4+ save vs a Cadian or Krieg has always been weird. That isn't layers and layers of armor like you saw with the Kasrkin or that ridiculous chestplate like the gasmask troopers.

But there is a lot of room to mess with Tempestus and Infantry Squads though. Tempestus alone had a whole book filled with info about their gadgets and gizmos. The Martyr's Gift Field Service Medi-Kit(which freaking has bionic limbs in it!) is a good example of this. Their armor having in-built chemdispensers. Etc. Etc.

Infantry Squads, like I've said godknowshowmanytimesnow, need to be revised to reflect what the models are. You wouldn't let someone play Marauders as Chaos Warriors and in some instances the differences in kit are just as dramatic there. That alone is something that can be tweaked.

You can't give them a faction wide 5+ invul, because then that puts them on parity with Thousand Sons magic shenanigans. You can't give them army wide damage reduction, because they're 1 wound models. You can't give them an extra wound... well, I guess you can, but that would be sheer madness. etc. etc. etc.

You can totally give them damage reduction while in cover or things like that.

Yet we know they probably won't get a price cut, because Thousand Sons and Death Guard cultists are 5ppm, as are Gretchin (which have the possibly unique distinction of being the only unit in the game thats worse than a conscript). It would be hard to justify dropping conscripts to 3-4ppm or guardsmen to 4-5ppm in relation to those other units (and yes I realize that points comparisons across factions are largely meaningless as you need to take buffs and synergies into account, but guardsmen get a lot more tools to help them than gretchin and cultists do) to try to level the army out on the power curve.

We don't know what they will get. For all we know, they're going to do a bunch of the things I've been wishlisting about for years and Guard Infantry Squads are going to be 6-7PPM but be an actual terror for people even when they don't just run around with plasma blobs.

Well, there are 2 routes:

1 - points cuts, which are problematic for half our army
2 - output & durability boosts.

I think Guard play (ruleswise) fine right now, it's not great, but it still works.

55 points for a guard squad is fine, if the output could be boosted. A LRBT would be fine if we granted them a 5+++ and boosted their output by 150%. Glass Cannons have worked for DE, it can work for us too.

The biggest problem we have is the amount of VPs we give up for our units, but there are solutions for those as well. Drop Chimera chassis to 9W, boost LRBTs to 14. Allows us to combat squad our infantry & vet squads. If orders are an aura, or chain like they do today, that would be an indirect boost to durability and reduction in VPs granted.

There are solutions to these, but it does require a shift in thinking. Otherwise we're just an overly expensive and underperforming AdMech.

brainpsyk wrote:
Well, there are 2 routes:

1 - points cuts, which are problematic for half our army
2 - output & durability boosts.

I think Guard play (ruleswise) fine right now, it's not great, but it still works.

55 points for a guard squad is fine, if the output could be boosted. A LRBT would be fine if we granted them a 5+++ and boosted their output by 150%. Glass Cannons have worked for DE, it can work for us too.

The biggest problem we have is the amount of VPs we give up for our units, but there are solutions for those as well. Drop Chimera chassis to 9W, boost LRBTs to 14. Allows us to combat squad our infantry & vet squads. If orders are an aura, or chain like they do today, that would be an indirect boost to durability and reduction in VPs granted.

There are solutions to these, but it does require a shift in thinking. Otherwise we're just an overly expensive and underperforming AdMech.

I think it's been very clear they don't work.

chaos0xomega wrote:
You can't give them a 4+ save, because then tempestus would need a 3+ save to maintain their existing relationship to the rest of the faction, and thats just not going to happen.

Crusaders are suppose to have carapace armour, and have now been given a 3+ save. Anything is possible sadly.

BlackoCatto wrote:
I think it's been very clear they don't work.

What doesn't work?

Jarms48 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
You can't give them a 4+ save, because then tempestus would need a 3+ save to maintain their existing relationship to the rest of the faction, and thats just not going to happen.

Crusaders are suppose to have carapace armour, and have now been given a 3+ save. Anything is possible sadly.

So why can't they have the same Storm Shield as Marines? +1 Armor Sv/ and a 4++. Then they are still wearing Carapace armor, and have 3+/4++.

I'd love to see all IG T8 vehicles like LRBTs get a rule where they have to be a full unit of 3. A full squad. No more cheap T8 spam.

Crusaders get a 3+ for their shields, which tempestus dont have.

Im not sure how the LRBT proposal changes anything? Youre still buying large quantities of leman russes either way. If theyre forced to squadron GW will actually probably give them a small point discount which is not really to your benefit.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Crusaders get a 3+ for their shields, which tempestus dont have.

Im not sure how the LRBT proposal changes anything? Youre still buying large quantities of leman russes either way. If theyre forced to squadron GW will actually probably give them a small point discount which is not really to your benefit.

That's entirely predicated on what assumptions you're making. If GW requires that with no fixes, then you're right and GW is beating a dead Rough Rider Platoon.

However, if you make the assumption that GW has fixed LRBTs and Orders, then I can see them requiring 3 LRBTS in a squadron and only allowing 1 TC per LRBT squadron (preferably without taking up a force org slot). Then a slight discount on LRBTs would be soooo sweet. Tau could then suck my big D...emo Cannon.

brainpsyk wrote:
So why can't they have the same Storm Shield as Marines? +1 Armor Sv/ and a 4++. Then they are still wearing Carapace armor, and have 3+/4++.

That's exactly what they did have, the Guard Crusaders still have that. I'm guessing GW want to limit access to storm shields. They did the same thing for Custodes, changed them to something else too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Crusaders get a 3+ for their shields, which tempestus dont have.

You're incorrect bud, that's the old Guard ones. Not the updated Sister ones, which the profile will 100% move to. They have a base 3+ save and a 4++ from the shield.

its the same difference, they just cut out the middleman and made the base save 3+ instead of saying its a 4+ with a special rule that gives it a +1 to saves.

chaos0xomega wrote:
its the same difference, they just cut out the middleman and made the base save 3+ instead of saying its a 4+ with a special rule that gives it a +1 to saves.

Stormshields never gave +1 to saves until the 9th edition SM codex. Changing their shield from a storm shield and giving them a 3+ is 100% intentional.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'd love to see all IG T8 vehicles like LRBTs get a rule where they have to be a full unit of 3. A full squad. No more cheap T8 spam.

That's... terrible. For smaller games that's absolutely wretched, but even beyond that, but forcing _all_ guard players to go all or nothing on tanks is just unpleasant. GW doesn't need to be dictating builds. Particularly not unfluffy ones.