I had a tab for GW open for the Tau Patrol box and noticed the price was now £90. Then look at the other Tau stuff and pretty much it's all gone up in price.

Considering these box sets are supposed to be the army introduction sets, but they don't really provide an "army" in most cases, I am assuming GW has given up entirely on encouraging kids into the game and as such, the future of the game.

I can say this in honesty - Tau are the last army I am collecting. Considering it's basically just a few sprues of plastic and the rising cost of everything else in life, I'm calling it there and just using what I have already own moving forward.

They announced the hike last month. Link

Not ideal, but with everything else going up it wasn't surprising.

 Strat_N8 wrote:
They announced the hike last month. Article

And existing thread in News & Rumors.

Recommended forum:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/96.page

Sumilidon wrote:

I can say this in honesty - Tau are the last army I am collecting. Considering it's basically just a few sprues of plastic and the rising cost of everything else in life, I'm calling it there and just using what I have already own moving forward.

Nobody believes you.

ccs wrote:

Sumilidon wrote:

I can say this in honesty - Tau are the last army I am collecting. Considering it's basically just a few sprues of plastic and the rising cost of everything else in life, I'm calling it there and just using what I have already own moving forward.

Nobody believes you.

Honestly 40k has been such an extraordinary waste of money for so long it's hard to imagine this particular price increase being what does it. If you notice it in your budget maybe you should have stopped a long time ago.

I mean yeah, its a really expensive hobby. But a hike like this every year or so is really just prices staying the same. Its adjustment for inflation and increased cost of business.

The pricing has never really been that accessible for kids. Even back in 2e when I started playing. Game sizes were smaller of course, that's probably the biggest real terms change. But you can always play like 1000 points games to get that back.

While those metal/plastic kits got to a point where they were comparatively expensive compared to the following plastic kits, the game functioned much better for smaller armies back in 2nd, making it a better value.

But compare the price of two Warlocks from then to now. A pair in a blister pack was US$ 6.99? The new kit is $55. That's in no way commesurate to inflation, which is about 1.83 from 1995 to now.

There's also company practices, such as three SM codexes (at $50ish each) in four years.

Current GW pricing is a joke.

 Insectum7 wrote:
But compare the price of two Warlocks from then to now. A pair in a blister pack was US$ 6.99? The new kit is $55. That's in no way commesurate to inflation, which is about 1.83 from 1995 to now.

bUt ThEy HaVe A rEsPoNsIbIlItY tO sHaReHoLdErS!!!

Shrink the scale! Both epic40k and warmaster are growing in popularity again. Tons of places to get models from and the rules are being looked after by people who are passionate about game design and fair play.

28mm is fine for skirmish games with a handful of models. The price tag for 2,000 points of warhammer is simply unreasonable.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
But compare the price of two Warlocks from then to now. A pair in a blister pack was US$ 6.99? The new kit is $55. That's in no way commesurate to inflation, which is about 1.83 from 1995 to now.

bUt ThEy HaVe A rEsPoNsIbIlItY tO sHaReHoLdErS!!!

I can work with that!

The annual "GW raised prices?" thread I see. Legend. Been a thing since like the mid 1990s.

You should have seen people lose their mind when the plastic land raider debut in 2000 for $45. So many people quitting and calling for boycott. GW was going to die "any day now".

 auticus wrote:
The annual "GW raised prices?" thread I see. Legend. Been a thing since like the mid 1990s.

You should have seen people lose their mind when the plastic land raider debut in 2000 for $45. So many people quitting and calling for boycott. GW was going to die "any day now".

It's the "I'm above it all and you're all morons for being unhappy about GW raising their prices!" post. Legend. Been a thing since the mid 1990s.

Yep. That was totally my angle.

Or you know if you guys weren't such slaves to the "ecosystem" and chucking dump trucks of cash at GW regardless of the quality of their rules or the price points that they continue to set, the ruleset may not be garbage and they may not be able to sell $2.99 hobby knives for $30 that the whales shovel money at?

 auticus wrote:
Yep. That was totally my angle.

Or you know if you guys weren't such slaves to the "ecosystem" and chucking dump trucks of cash at GW regardless of the quality of their rules or the price points that they continue to set, the ruleset may not be garbage and they may not be able to sell $2.99 hobby knives for $30 that the whales shovel money at?

Well that's not a particularly good angle either, seeing as my GW spending has plummeted in the past few years because of their practices. So I wouldn't go labeling myself a "slave to their ecosystem" by a long shot.

I'm glad to hear it. There are however a lot of people that does apply to.

 auticus wrote:
Yep. That was totally my angle.

Or you know if you guys weren't such slaves to the "ecosystem" and chucking dump trucks of cash at GW regardless of the quality of their rules or the price points that they continue to set, the ruleset may not be garbage and they may not be able to sell $2.99 hobby knives for $30 that the whales shovel money at?

I've said this before & I'll repeat it again;
The problem is that the evil toy company keeps releasing minis I like.
If they'd just stop doing that they'd get a lot less of my $. Unfortunately they seem to realize that....

ccs wrote:

 auticus wrote:
Yep. That was totally my angle.

Or you know if you guys weren't such slaves to the "ecosystem" and chucking dump trucks of cash at GW regardless of the quality of their rules or the price points that they continue to set, the ruleset may not be garbage and they may not be able to sell $2.99 hobby knives for $30 that the whales shovel money at?

I've said this before & I'll repeat it again;
The problem is that the evil toy company keeps releasing minis I like.
If they'd just stop doing that they'd get a lot less of my $. Unfortunately they seem to realize that....

The minis aren't gonna go anywhere. If you patient at all it's not a problem, but instead we get people spending the money for poor practices because Malibu Stacy has a new hat.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

ccs wrote:

 auticus wrote:
Yep. That was totally my angle.

Or you know if you guys weren't such slaves to the "ecosystem" and chucking dump trucks of cash at GW regardless of the quality of their rules or the price points that they continue to set, the ruleset may not be garbage and they may not be able to sell $2.99 hobby knives for $30 that the whales shovel money at?

I've said this before & I'll repeat it again;
The problem is that the evil toy company keeps releasing minis I like.
If they'd just stop doing that they'd get a lot less of my $. Unfortunately they seem to realize that....

The minis aren't gonna go anywhere. If you patient at all it's not a problem, but instead we get people spending the money for poor practices because Malibu Stacy has a new hat.

Nothing goes over your head, does it?
It's not about when I buy models. It's about other people having a problem that I buy them.

Sumilidon wrote:

I can say this in honesty - Tau are the last army I am collecting. Considering it's basically just a few sprues of plastic and the rising cost of everything else in life, I'm calling it there and just using what I have already own moving forward.

"I'm just gonna fill this one last hole with money then I'm done."

Or just don't buy any? Punishing GW by collecting an army is a weird way to go about things but you do you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ccs wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

ccs wrote:

 auticus wrote:
Yep. That was totally my angle.

Or you know if you guys weren't such slaves to the "ecosystem" and chucking dump trucks of cash at GW regardless of the quality of their rules or the price points that they continue to set, the ruleset may not be garbage and they may not be able to sell $2.99 hobby knives for $30 that the whales shovel money at?

I've said this before & I'll repeat it again;
The problem is that the evil toy company keeps releasing minis I like.
If they'd just stop doing that they'd get a lot less of my $. Unfortunately they seem to realize that....

The minis aren't gonna go anywhere. If you patient at all it's not a problem, but instead we get people spending the money for poor practices because Malibu Stacy has a new hat.

Nothing goes over your head, does it?
It's not about when I buy models. It's about other people having a problem that I buy them.

There are ways to get GW models that doesn't give money to GW.

I know that the new price hikes have deterred some of my group's spending habits, which is fine as it means we can attack the grey without adding any more on top of it. There are also other games out there that have a chance at being played due to cheaper price points like SW Legion and so on.

What would be interesting is to see how this affects competitive Warhammer player who have to continuously update and buy new stuff/armies every change to the game.

Plus, with what's going on in the real world I would not be surprised if we see more price hikes in the immediate future.

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
Shrink the scale! Both epic40k and warmaster are growing in popularity again. Tons of places to get models from and the rules are being looked after by people who are passionate about game design and fair play.

28mm is fine for skirmish games with a handful of models. The price tag for 2,000 points of warhammer is simply unreasonable.

People wanted Epic back years ago. What did GW do? They gave us Titanicus. And even after two years there is not a single vehicle or infantry base in sight. Pathetic!

 Sim-Life wrote:

Sumilidon wrote:

I can say this in honesty - Tau are the last army I am collecting. Considering it's basically just a few sprues of plastic and the rising cost of everything else in life, I'm calling it there and just using what I have already own moving forward.

"I'm just gonna fill this one last hole with money then I'm done."

Or just don't buy any? Punishing GW by collecting an army is a weird way to go about things but you do you.

Mostly because I'm 95% of the way there to finishing it and have a few holes to plug to make it into a viable and fun army.


Here's a question for everyone however. What is the age distribution at your local club? Over the last 10 years, has it just been the younger people getting old or are you seeing new young people getting into the hobby? He's what I am seeing from my local clubs - increasingly older men (as I am) with adult money to spend, but no new blood coming into the clubs under the age of 25 unless it's a kid of one of the members.

GW is doing well to stoke the nostalgia of it's older players to get back into the hobby - but when they move on, who will replace them?

As for rising costs, this from Insectum7 sums it up perfectly:

But compare the price of two Warlocks from then to now. A pair in a blister pack was US$ 6.99? The new kit is $55. That's in no way commesurate to inflation, which is about 1.83 from 1995 to now.

Welcome to the world of plastic to everything.

tneva82 wrote:
Welcome to the world of plastic to everything.

Right? We're in a time at the moment where various factors (some global, some specific to the UK) are causing costs to soar across the board. Getting pretty grimdark out there.

 Stux wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Welcome to the world of plastic to everything.

Right? We're in a time at the moment where various factors (some global, some specific to the UK) are causing costs to soar across the board. Getting pretty grimdark out there.

When a Drop Pod is priced at $50 against two Warlocks costing $55, it's not the price of the @#*&ing plastic.

Utility prices in the UK have gone through the roof. I’m not surprised that they need to put prices up as the cost of running their factories etc must be eye watering now

the point is, they need to put prices up to maintain a growth in profit

not because they might be making no profit or are on the edge of not being able to pay their stuff

but simply because next years profit (the money that is left over after everything is paid) is higher than last years profit

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Stux wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Welcome to the world of plastic to everything.

Right? We're in a time at the moment where various factors (some global, some specific to the UK) are causing costs to soar across the board. Getting pretty grimdark out there.

When a Drop Pod is priced at $50 against two Warlocks costing $55, it's not the price of the @#*&ing plastic.

Its not literally just the plastic...

Everything is getting more expensive. And when has the amount of plastic dictated the price anyway?

I mean why not? People will keep paying it. My genestealer characters went from like 20 something to 36 a model in just 3 years. I'm sure people will try and justify it but it's hilarious to try and make sense of it when their profits never dipped below 40%. Which is an insane number. But hey I can't judge. I'm still buying them up even to this day.

The price argument doesn’t hold up. Back in 2005ish, 20 imperial guard cost $35. Today, Wargames Atlantic sell 20-30 not-Imperial Guard for $35. They also sell 30+ historical minis ready for IG duty or fantasy at $35. Clearly decent prices are still viable, even for companies working on a smaller scale.


And yeah, I haven’t bought GW in years. But my decades of investment are paying off in hitching rights.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Stux wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Welcome to the world of plastic to everything.

Right? We're in a time at the moment where various factors (some global, some specific to the UK) are causing costs to soar across the board. Getting pretty grimdark out there.

When a Drop Pod is priced at $50 against two Warlocks costing $55, it's not the price of the @#*&ing plastic.

How much do you think plastic was going for the last time they did a run of Drop Pods? Can we blow the dust off the box and see?

Drop Pod plastic is cheaper than Warlock plastic, you see.

C'mon! Everyone knows that.

 Stux wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Stux wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Welcome to the world of plastic to everything.

Right? We're in a time at the moment where various factors (some global, some specific to the UK) are causing costs to soar across the board. Getting pretty grimdark out there.

When a Drop Pod is priced at $50 against two Warlocks costing $55, it's not the price of the @#*&ing plastic.

Its not literally just the plastic...

Everything is getting more expensive. And when has the amount of plastic dictated the price anyway?

The price hasn't been tied to much of anything. It's just dollars for dollars sake because they can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Stux wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Welcome to the world of plastic to everything.

Right? We're in a time at the moment where various factors (some global, some specific to the UK) are causing costs to soar across the board. Getting pretty grimdark out there.

When a Drop Pod is priced at $50 against two Warlocks costing $55, it's not the price of the @#*&ing plastic.

How much do you think plastic was going for the last time they did a run of Drop Pods? Can we blow the dust off the box and see?

Better question: How much do you think plastic goes for?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Drop Pod plastic is cheaper than Warlock plastic, you see.

C'mon! Everyone knows that.

Did you think you'd look better pretending to be obtuse enough to not understand a petroleum product like plastic might be cheaper a few years ago vs today and the $7.00 a gallon California gas? The cost of plastic in a Drop Pod is pretty well set. I'd guess they've made about as many as they're going to of that mold, and the only thing that can increase their costs on a Drop Pod now is having to store it for another two years in a warehouse somewhere. Given polystyrene prices and history, and the fact that they're not melting down unsold drop pods to make Warlocks, I'm guessing the real cost is likely in the labor. Do you think GW is more likely to have recouped costs of the market saturated drop pod from a decade ago, or the Warlocks box that hit the shelves a week ago? But at least instead of having an honest discussion we had someone launch into a "Hurr Hurr! I'm going to pretend that wasn't a point about year over year inflation and depreciation.".

I'm ridiculing the notion that the cost of materials rising means that only the new things go up, whereas existing ones don't*.

If the cost of production going up necessitates the increase of product prices, then why is it only the new ones that seem to go up?

Moreover, 6 months ago this wasn't the issue and GW were still raising the price. A year ago this wasn't and issue and they were still raising the prices. 2 years ago this was't the issue and, yet, GW still kept putting prices up.

The Warlocks vs Drop Pods comparison is a frightingly stark comparison at how absurd it has become, and the idea that it's because petroleum costs are high because of inflation in the US or Russia being a big pack'a witches is LAUGHABLE. Yet you accuse me of being dishonest, and want to blame the price of Warlocks on current events?

And that's before we even get into GW's margins, which we well know are absurdly good.


*Yes, I am aware of the recent price announcement, but again, why are the proportional prices so vastly difference (ie. Drop Pod vs Warlocks).

 Insectum7 wrote:


How much do you think plastic was going for the last time they did a run of Drop Pods? Can we blow the dust off the box and see?

Better question: How much do you think plastic goes for?

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Stux wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Welcome to the world of plastic to everything.

Right? We're in a time at the moment where various factors (some global, some specific to the UK) are causing costs to soar across the board. Getting pretty grimdark out there.

When a Drop Pod is priced at $50 against two Warlocks costing $55, it's not the price of the @#*&ing plastic.

You realize right it's not the material price alone?

Hint: Small quantities of plastic castings will be lot more expensive for GW to produce than huge number. DUCY? It's actually pretty basic. Even elementary school kid can understand this if explained so you should be able to figure it out on yourself(I'm presuming you are at least teenage ager) even.

That's why models that are sold in small quantities(characters in particular) should never have been plastic. You don't sell 10 boxes of Guillimann to even guy that collects 10k Ultramarine army do you?

If you think only thing that matters in model cost is the material cost...Well lol what a noob

Isn't this argument kind of stupid. If you're blaming the price increase on Russia (?) then why did GW only start producing Warlocks last week and not months in advance of their release?

 Sim-Life wrote:
Isn't this argument kind of stupid. If you're blaming the price increase on Russia (?) then why did GW only start producing Warlocks last week and not months in advance of their release?

Yes, it is, that's kind of why they're doing it.

The Cost of Labor and Materials is much higher today than a decade ago when the Drop Pod kit was created.

Ha ha you blamed Russia?

tneva82 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Stux wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Welcome to the world of plastic to everything.

Right? We're in a time at the moment where various factors (some global, some specific to the UK) are causing costs to soar across the board. Getting pretty grimdark out there.

When a Drop Pod is priced at $50 against two Warlocks costing $55, it's not the price of the @#*&ing plastic.

You realize right it's not the material price alone?

Yes. Duh. Why'd your post focus on plastic then?

But even bringing the other factors into it, GWs prices still don't make sense. Because other companies can make and ship products around the globe, and for much cheaper.

Now I'm willing to recognize the fact that if GW is making everything in Britain that could incur higher costs. And I as a consumer am totally willing to pay a price toavoid a "Made in China" label. But I'm still not going to believe that GWs prices are sensible. $50 codex. $32 hobby knife, and $55 for two minor characters remains preposterous.

I just love to see the GW protectors jump in to protect " Muh Queen " GW as if it's crying in the corner because all the bully boys are bashing its outlandish prices.

GW isn't a sports car, and they would raise the prices on any day ending in Y and it has nothing to do with materials, costs, anything its they want moar profits while giving us a loving spoonful of sob story. That's it.

The actual manufacturing costs of these kits is *negligible* once they get the production line going.
I've spoken to some people "in the know" at Warlord games - and producing the box art is the greatest single element of releasing a new kit.
Granted, those were for relatively simple aircraft models but still.

GW's prices pay for their retail staff, their design staff, their brick&mortar properties, etc etc.
They could stick 300 minis in the box and I suspect the biggest increase in cost to GW would be shipping costs given the increased volume of an individual box.

Glad to see that along with calls for better bolters, the price gouging still gets complained about. This is the GW I know and love to hate passionately while still supporting.

If the price hike is a problem for you vote with your hobby dollars and don't buy. GW are massive at this point and need to sustain their profits. There is a concept in economics called price elasticity of demand for which they will have already accounted for. They know there will be drop off in consumers but the ones that remain paying higher prices for less product will produce more money for them and cost savings in reduction of distribution and warehousing. It rarely hurts a company of this size but will likely hurt all the smaller reseller stores more.

 Nithaniel wrote:
If the price hike is a problem for you vote with your hobby dollars and don't buy. GW are massive at this point and need to sustain their profits. There is a concept in economics called price elasticity of demand for which they will have already accounted for. They know there will be drop off in consumers but the ones that remain paying higher prices for less product will produce more money for them and cost savings in reduction of distribution and warehousing. It rarely hurts a company of this size but will likely hurt all the smaller reseller stores more.

What like the great wobble of 2012(ish) ? That kind of thinking earned GW quite the slap with other games hacking chunks out of "their" money, it wasn't fatal but was quite the wake up call, seem we are close to that happening again

No, difference to 2012 is that Wahapedia and 3D printing exists
so 40k and AoS will continue to be the games being played, so no chance that others games reach the critical threshold

hence GW will still get the money from all those coming fresh into the hobby because they start with the games that are already played
(and this is all GW wants)

so as long as people play 40k, they support GW in making money

Breton wrote:
The Cost of Labor and Materials is much higher today than a decade ago when the Drop Pod kit was created.

Cost of plastic is utterly negligible as a factor in an injection-molded kit, GW's price rises have been well in excess of inflation, and labor costs (ie wages) haven't kept up with inflation to begin with.

Other manufacturers who also make all their merchandise in the US/UK under US/UK labor costs and using the same plastic are somehow able to deliver products for lower cost.

This is grasping at straws. Prices on kits have never been direct representations of cost to manufacture and distribution, the same way a movie DVD's pricing has very little to do with how much the raw materials to print a DVD cost or how much labor is required. They're set to amortize up-front costs of mold-making and long-term operational costs of running the business, plus a healthy dose of 'how much more can we charge and have people still buy', ie profit.

Honestly I am in the I wish GW prices were lower, but its not really affecting me or my group too much camp.

Compared to other hobbies its still not super pricey even if it is just little plastic soldiers. As a gamer and current AAA titles running $60 give about 20-40 hours of entertainment usually for main story mode games, if you bang out ever achievement closer to 80ish hours.

A 10 man intersessor kit runs $60 retail (street price is $51 on amazon and $48 at a lot of other etailers, but wimpler to look at it this way). Building an painting to a nice standard that will be probably 10 hours building, priming and painting them for entertainment. Those 10 intersessors are 1/10 of a 2000 point list so really it depends on how many games you play for them to break even with a AAA video game title. personally for me it is 1-3 games per week likely 2-4 hours a game. so call it 6 hours of play a week. so for me these intersessors need another 50 hour of entertainment to value my AAA game. they are 1/10 a list, so with my 2 games a week 3 hours each average they reach .6 hour of the video game a week for one squad. So to me in 83 weeks the Intercessor squad if i played monofaction space marines every week break even with my entertainment dollar for the AAA title.

Not bad but not great. I think GW would attract more people to the hobby by dropping prices but for my personal spending they have not curbed the buying one box (be it a starter set, box set or individual model) per month for the past 2 decades

comparing hobbies,
needing 2000€ worth of basic hardware and paying 60€ for games, is cheap combared to being a glider pilot
but than, looking at the cost of running your own submarine, it is still cheap

but usually you don't compare different hobbies to make one looking cheaper than the other
compare within the hobby to see if the price is ok or not

if my hobby is being a glider pilot, I don't look at submarines to check if the fees for the airport are overpriced or not
I compare it with other airports

or better said, you know that a company has unreasonable prices if you cannot compare it to other companines within the same "hobby" but need to look at a different hobby to say that those are not that bad

 kodos wrote:
comparing hobbies,
needing 2000€ worth of basic hardware and paying 60€ for games, is cheap combared to being a glider pilot
but than, looking at the cost of running your own submarine, it is still cheap

but usually you don't compare different hobbies to make one looking cheaper than the other
compare within the hobby to see if the price is ok or not

if my hobby is being a glider pilot, I don't look at submarines to check if the fees for the airport are overpriced or not
I compare it with other airports

or better said, you know that a company has unreasonable prices if you cannot compare it to other companines within the same "hobby" but need to look at a different hobby to say that those are not that bad

i would agree if I were comparing a hobby i do not partake in, but I also do regularly play video games so to me it tracks (for my own spending, ymmv). Both cost a lot more than one of my other hobbies Gardening where i probably save money on food by growing it from cheap seeds and seeds from last year's crops. I mostly use free containers and beds from cheap or reclaimed wood. I mix my own soil from free compost (local municipality provides it free, i pay gas to go get it but its not far from my house). So compared to that hobby i guess you could say 40k is infinitely more expensive.

you have several hobbies, one of them being cheaper than the other, still not see the point of comparing different hobbies to show if a manufacturer of hobby supply sells overpriced stuff

so if you buy AAA game for your other hobby, there are 2 similar games, one for 60€ and the other for 120€, you buy the more expensive one and because the new 40k Box costs 200€ the game cannot be overpriced because 40k is still more expensive

The fairest comparison is to other, similar games, such as Mantic’s Warpath or Marlstrom’s Edge or Infinity or something like that. Warmachine is as pricey as GW, but Warmachine is dead and everyone knows it.

 kodos wrote:
you have several hobbies, one of them being cheaper than the other, still not see the point of comparing different hobbies to show if a manufacturer of hobby supply sells overpriced stuff

so if you buy AAA game for your other hobby, there are 2 similar games, one for 60€ and the other for 120€, you buy the more expensive one and because the new 40k Box costs 200€ the game cannot be overpriced because 40k is still more expensive

I guess then use your own justification to spend your own money? all I ever said is that is how i feel about it personally, that you don't find value in my own personal reasoning doesn't affect how i still feel about money spent on the hobby, but no hard feelings either way. Your feelings and justification is just as valid for your own pocketbook

I absolutely would agree that GW prices are much higher than they should be for the amount of plastic and rules which we also pay for seperatly (and are of dubious quality on release). It just not past the point where I feel it matters to me. (again personally you and many others can certainly disagree and spend your hard earned money otherwise)

On other systems and models, I got into warmachine/hordes, infinity, bolt action, and malifaux but the problem there is getting a community to play with. I can always find a 40k game in town, finding opponents for another game system outside a few close friends was difficult.

With 3d printing i actually hope we get more people in because of the barrier to entry being lower. I have several 3d printers both FDM and resin. i print some custom bits and even whole armies and terrain sets but still buy 1 box per month to support the FLGS and like having legit GW models as well in my collections. Heck i even am a Imperium magazine subscriber as I want to see all the scenarios and lore bits in the magazines themselves moreso than the minis.

Pseudo related to the 3d printing and minis for GW's continued survival as a company. I personally would love GW to have warhammer+ include access to all codexes and rules. With that make it a living ruleset that they regularly balance update through the app. Until then. even spending what i do on the hobby, I am not, and do not plan on getting warhammer+.

you can do with your money what ever you want, you don't need to justify it, specially not on the web

I like well made rulebooks, so I spend much more money on rules without ever playing the game
I just like to read them but I would never compare the price of a book to a PC game this just makes no sense at all
I compare them to other books to see of the price is reasonable enough to by it for the read and not to something completely different just both consume time


so the GW prices would need to be compared to other similar "hobbies"
being it boardgames, miniature games, wargames or display models

 G00fySmiley wrote:
but the problem there is getting a community to play with. I can always find a 40k game in town, finding opponents for another game system outside a few close friends was difficult.
With 3d printing i actually hope we get more people in because of the barrier to entry being lower.

and this is exactly my point in the post above, instead of doing other games, to get away from expensive GW, free rules and cheaper models are used to grow the playerbase of GW games so that it is getting harder and harder to find people for other games

but going with that, GW is overpriced and the models not worth the money, but their rules must be superior to everything else, as people look for replacement in models but not for different games

 kodos wrote:


but going with that, GW is overpriced and the models not worth the money, but their rules must be superior to everything else, as people look for replacement in models but not for different games

No.

the irony, I know

 kodos wrote:
you can do with your money what ever you want, you don't need to justify it, specially not on the web

I like well made rulebooks, so I spend much more money on rules without ever playing the game
I just like to read them but I would never compare the price of a book to a PC game this just makes no sense at all
I compare them to other books to see of the price is reasonable enough to by it for the read and not to something completely different just both consume time


so the GW prices would need to be compared to other similar "hobbies"
being it boardgames, miniature games, wargames or display models

 G00fySmiley wrote:
but the problem there is getting a community to play with. I can always find a 40k game in town, finding opponents for another game system outside a few close friends was difficult.
With 3d printing i actually hope we get more people in because of the barrier to entry being lower.

and this is exactly my point in the post above, instead of doing other games, to get away from expensive GW, free rules and cheaper models are used to grow the playerbase of GW games so that it is getting harder and harder to find people for other games

but going with that, GW is overpriced and the models not worth the money, but their rules must be superior to everything else, as people look for replacement in models but not for different games

I also have a pretty big board game collection, that's harder for me to compare as just like other games its sometimes hard to get a chance to play a game many times. one of my current newer fav games is unfathomable. it cost ~$60 but i have only gotten to play it 3 times so far. amazing game very in line with one of my other favorite board games battlestar galactica, but that too i probably only every got 10 or 15 games in for a similar price (still regard both as well worth the price though). I will say if a person said hey there are 4 or us want to play 40k or unfathomable i would probably go for the board game.

I do agree though on price there I think GW would find a lot more sales and ultimatly make more money if they were more approachable. When i started playing you had shortly after that the assault on black reach box set for if i recall right $70 and get 2 small armies to start. at the timee i want to say a tac marines squad was $20ish and boyz box $15 we had new players jumping in all the time. now people express interest when they see us play then look at the prices and say they will think abotu it instead of buying a box.

Eh, honestly doesn't affect me much - my hobby budget is relatively fixed based on other expenses. I'm an awfully slow painter, and never buy things until I'm fully painted in what I already have. So the change will mean I'll possibly buy fewer things - or stick more to bundles and such instead, but the overall effect on me personally will be about nothing. Not a meta chaser or anything, rarely buy the latest shiny thing, just get what I think looks good and fits into my army.

There's probably a future point where I may have to stop and reevaluate if I can afford to continue buying stuff to paint, but this isn't it.

Buying GW stuff is a completely voluntary thing, its not like anyone needs it to survive. If you can't afford it, find alternatives or stop. Take up chess, similar but way cheaper!

One can stop buying GW (years ago) and still complain about their price hikes and other business practices that have a negative effect on the non-GW rest of the hobby.

 catbarf wrote:
They're set to amortize up-front costs of mold-making and long-term operational costs of running the business, plus a healthy dose of 'how much more can we charge and have people still buy', ie profit.

Its kind of weird to be told I'm wrong because the very point I'm making is a fact. I said the Drop Pod was cheaper because those calculations were made 10 or so years ago when the numbers were smaller compared to today and the Warlocks kit.

Price hikes are everywhere the days. The Ukraine war is to blame, experts say. Logistics chains break and sooner or later this will also affect the tabletop industry.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Price hikes are everywhere the days. The Ukraine war is to blame, experts say. Logistics chains break and sooner or later this will also affect the tabletop industry.

Yes, the cost of raw plastic extracted from suboceanic chinese plastic mines, has risen because of how the silk road has to go around the war. Realisticly the way I see prices at my store, they go up every year. And I am happy I have not bought any new models in almost 3 years.

Sighs. I haven't bought much lately. Had an email this morning... looked... thought... nice... but not that price nice... still tempted by warcry, mind....

I've picked up a couple Last Chance to Buy models before they're rotated out and brought back at an even higher price like the Armour Through the Ages but the last army purchase I made was at the start of the year when I picked up a bunch of Catachan stuff after finding a couple of their old Battleforces (the 25 Catachan, 1 HWT and 2 Catachan Sentinel ones) on ebay.

I'll probably buy more in the future, but my purchases have slowed waaaay down though my community being on a One Page Rules kick probably has more to do with that especially paired with how many hours I work for so few days off.

EDIT: Also I'm confused on why people are saying GW's profit margin is 40%. Are people looking at the profit before taxation and saying that's how much GW is making? Because that's not entirely correct. You want cash from operations, because that's how much money they actually keep after taxes and can use.


And I'm not going to say that 30% left after taxes ain't high. Because it still is, and seems to be structured to allow them to pay dividends and still have money left over (they paid out £37,950,000 in dividends at the time of this report) which left the company £20,880,000 in actual cash to invest in new product lines, expand the company without accruing debt (like that expansion for increased plastic casting they added to the company property) and pay bonuses. Is that too much? I honestly don't know. I do know that part of this seems to be the post LotR-debt that hit GW in the mid-00s and seems to be designed around avoiding accruing debt at all costs but it feels like the dividends are being given too much priority in how they structure their profit margin and should come after they work out what they need for future projects and not the other way around.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
EDIT: Also I'm confused on why people are saying GW's profit margin is 40%.

Because there are people who worked for GW or work in similar companies/parts of the industry who can tell to profit margins on plastic kits for GW are ~40-60%

this is different from their total after profits, which has nothing to do with product margins
you can have 99% margin, but if the management takes too much you might end of with an overall loss

 kodos wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
EDIT: Also I'm confused on why people are saying GW's profit margin is 40%.

Because there are people who worked for GW or work in similar companies/parts of the industry who can tell to profit margins on plastic kits for GW are ~40-60%

this is different from their total after profits, which has nothing to do with product margins
you can have 99% margin, but if the management takes too much you might end of with an overall loss

Ah, okay that makes some more sense. I thought people were misreading the financial sheets again.

Like I said, a lot of the problem is the company seems to structure it's price point around paying out dividends. Now if GW was a worker co-op that did so as a form of profit sharing to the employees I'd be more okay with it, but they're doing it to keep their stock in a "healthy" state for investment banks.

I don't think many companies or organisations are willing to change their modus operandi, specially when they are seeing a big green + at the end of the year on what they make. And I say this as a person who got priced out of w40k.
AoS on the other hand seems to be both cheaper and more fun, if you happen to pick a fun army to play with.

Karol wrote:
I don't think many companies or organisations are willing to change their modus operandi, specially when they are seeing a big green + at the end of the year on what they make. And I say this as a person who got priced out of w40k.
AoS on the other hand seems to be both cheaper and more fun, if you happen to pick a fun army to play with.

AoS seems to have taken steps to try and keep it more affordable thanks to the Enhancement system limiting people from going too nuts on unit sizes

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Karol wrote:
I don't think many companies or organisations are willing to change their modus operandi, specially when they are seeing a big green + at the end of the year on what they make. And I say this as a person who got priced out of w40k.
AoS on the other hand seems to be both cheaper and more fun, if you happen to pick a fun army to play with.

AoS seems to have taken steps to try and keep it more affordable thanks to the Enhancement system limiting people from going too nuts on unit sizes

Which are the unit size limits that 40k's had since 3rd. Sigmar's still got very similar cost per model to 40k, and the army sizes aren't that far off.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
. . . my community being on a One Page Rules kick . . .

OPR is one of the best developments in 40k in the past few years. There needs to be direct competition in the 40k space.

 AnomanderRake wrote:


Which are the unit size limits that 40k's had since 3rd. Sigmar's still got very similar cost per model to 40k, and the army sizes aren't that far off.

I am not AoS expert, by my Lumineth Lords army doesn't have any big monsters and consists of 50 infantry and 10 cavalery, plys heroes. And it plays great and is fun. to Play a working GK army I would have to buy 4 NDKs, 50 power armoured GKs. And am not even sure the list is even that good now, considering it struggles vs all the stuff which is top tier right now.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
. . . my community being on a One Page Rules kick . . .

OPR is one of the best developments in 40k in the past few years. There needs to be direct competition in the 40k space.

I guess? I don't know, maybe my view is tainted because some of the guys talk about it like they're trying to make their ex jealous of how happy they are. Well that and it feels pretty barebones. That said, if people like it, that's fine.

Said it often, OPR is what 8th Edi wanted to be

so all those who liked 8th will be happy with OPR
while those who want more ore liked older Edition of 40k more, may have the some problems with OPR as they had with 8th/9th

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
. . . my community being on a One Page Rules kick . . .

OPR is one of the best developments in 40k in the past few years. There needs to be direct competition in the 40k space.

I guess? I don't know, maybe my view is tainted because some of the guys talk about it like they're trying to make their ex jealous of how happy they are. Well that and it feels pretty barebones. That said, if people like it, that's fine.

It's less about whether I like it or not (I haven't even played it), and much more about alternatives to buying overpriced and underdelivering GW rules. I hope OPR, Prohammer, and older editions grow in popularity. OPR in particular seems to be growing in its adoption.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Price hikes are everywhere the days. The Ukraine war is to blame, experts say. Logistics chains break and sooner or later this will also affect the tabletop industry.

Most other companies I purchase from didn't raise prices more than the rate of inflation every year for the last 20 years. Most other companies I purchase from give you far better value for your dollar to begin with. That's why I'm having a hard time swallowing the new prices while happily paying an extra 50 cents for my Starbucks mocha that was the same price in every country I visited for the last 10 years and has only had 1 price raise in the last 12 years.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You want cash from operations, because that's how much money they actually keep after taxes and can use.

That is insanely profitable. Revenue of 191.5M, profit after taxes of 76.4M? And they need to raise prices because their margins are too thin?! No, they're taking an opportunity to price gouge because they think they can get away with it due to global inflation and a war.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Price hikes are everywhere the days. The Ukraine war is to blame, experts say. Logistics chains break and sooner or later this will also affect the tabletop industry.

Experts say a lot of things.

Toofast wrote:
That is insanely profitable. Revenue of 191.5M, profit after taxes of 76.4M? And they need to raise prices because their margins are too thin?! No, they're taking an opportunity to price gouge because they think they can get away with it due to global inflation and a war.

20M after dividends. And the price increase was scheduled long before the war in Ukraine, let's not confuse those things as being related.

And I never defended the prices, just said it looks like they aren't trying to maintain profits specifically, but rather dividends.

H.B.M.C. wrote:bUt ThEy HaVe A rEsPoNsIbIlItY tO sHaReHoLdErS!!!

They do and it comes at the cost of their games. GW is obligated to prioritize more money.
I sucks, but it's working for them. I you don't like it don't support them.

Kcalehc wrote:Buying GW stuff is a completely voluntary thing, its not like anyone needs it to survive. If you can't afford it, find alternatives or stop. Take up chess, similar but way cheaper!

There are other cheap options too. Gaslands, for example, is loads of fun and all you need to buy is a rulebook an a few die cast cars (Hot Wheels seems to be the most popular).
You probably want to buy weapons, other bits (one converts the cars), terrain and a nice set of templates, tokens and dice; but it's set up so that you don't need to and is still cheaper than the books you need for 40K.

Karol wrote:I don't think many companies or organisations are willing to change their modus operandi, specially when they are seeing a big green + at the end of the year on what they make. And I say this as a person who got priced out of w40k.
AoS on the other hand seems to be both cheaper and more fun, if you happen to pick a fun army to play with.

I don't see a reason to change from GW's perspective either, but plenty of reason for players to support a different company.
Not sure AoS will be cheaper, but I preferred it while I still played the Warhammers (with daemons).

Insectum7 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
. . . my community being on a One Page Rules kick . . .

OPR is one of the best developments in 40k in the past few years. There needs to be direct competition in the 40k space.

Strange to hear that. I have heard a few Kings of War players being doubtful of Mantic's entry into that space with the buzz around the upcoming Firefight 2nd Edition.

Luckily for me GW made the decision about paying for their stuff for me.

They killed off Warmaster, Epic, Battlefleet Gothic, Warhammer Fantasy Battles, and 40k has turned into something that just leaves me cold.

The prices are a bit out of hand when one looks at the rest of the tabletop miniature world. However if they made Epic or Warmaster again I know that I'd buckle like an obese kid at an all you can eat pizza place.

 DarkBlack wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
. . . my community being on a One Page Rules kick . . .

OPR is one of the best developments in 40k in the past few years. There needs to be direct competition in the 40k space.

Strange to hear that. I have heard a few Kings of War players being doubtful of Mantic's entry into that space with the buzz around the upcoming Firefight 2nd Edition.

FF is a tricky story anyway, Mantics original SciFi entry with Warpath is much older and was a port of the KoW rules with plastic SciFi upgrades for the fantasy Dwarfs and Orcs models

long story:
short: Deadzone as a skirmish game was much more successful than Warpath, and now Mantic tries to fill the gap with an upscaled Deadzone game (Alpha Test Title was Deadzone XL) to catch the Deadzone players rather than try to please 40k refugees with a downscaled Warpath

so that KoW players are sceptical is not a surprise, as the game is something very different from KoW, (same as Deadzone players are not big fans of KoW Vanguard) with a different target group
but they also target a different community than One Page Rules, as those are aimed at being a better version of current 40k were you can play your existing armies as 1:1 copy (with all advantages and disadvantages)

 wuestenfux wrote:
Price hikes are everywhere the days. The Ukraine war is to blame, experts say. Logistics chains break and sooner or later this will also affect the tabletop industry.

Or it's just (day/month/year/quarter) & time for your regularly scheduled long pre-planned GW price hike.

Although GW's prices are rated at a quite high of a premium I have been surprisingly disappointed that a lot of other games are actually quite expensive as well, with the greatest difference that those games usually just require much fewer models which makes it cheaper in the long run perhaps. I mean, I have full teams/armies in Legion and MCP and the models aren't exactly cheap(except maybe for hero models in Legion comparatively), but the overall cost for an entire force/hero team was lower.

I would, however, love for more people to jump onto the Star Wars Legion wagon. I want that game to succeed and not some god forsaken World War 1/2/3 wargame that this industry is often riddled with. That's what I find most tiring about the entire hobby and the reason I haven't gone much outside of GW games except with MCP and Legion.

 kodos wrote:
. . .
but they also target a different community than One Page Rules, as those are aimed at being a better version of current 40k were you can play your existing armies as 1:1 copy (with all advantages and disadvantages)

^This is the big thing for me, and probably many others. We like the 40k IP, we have armies, but the rules/balance/book churn has gotten way out of hand, and having a popular, semi-universal alternative method for PUGs would be great.

It is also for, yet my problem is that I was not a big fan of the latest versions of 40k in the first place
so OPR is sidegrade rather than an upgrade for me (and I fear that as soon as GW brings a new Edition and promise that this time they will really try, all the hype about OPR will be gone)

were I feel more home with rules like the upcoming FireFight from Mantic (were I also already have armies, as GW does not make SciFi Dwarfs so I have the Mantic since they came out)

 kodos wrote:

so OPR is sidegrade rather than an upgrade for me (and I fear that as soon as GW brings a new Edition and promise that this time they will really try, all the hype about OPR will be gone)

I strongly doubt GW will do a 180° turn and simplify 40K to what OPR have produced. As it is GW seem to be hell bent on making their games convoluted ad a way to add depth.

The OPR systems are, I feel very safe from losing appeal. Not just due to their rules, but also the great 3D miniatures they have as well.

GW does not need to make a U turn to get the 40k people back, they just need to make the promise that this time it will be good

And it is not like GW has not done a 180, like from 7th to 8th or WHFB to AoS, when they feel the need for it.

And it is not like the current situation is very different from 7th, and while was easy to get people playing OPR during end of 7th, it was nearly impossible after 8th was released

Yes OPR will be around after 10th is released, if the hype for it will stay depends if GW can get goodwill of the community or not

 kodos wrote:
GW does not need to make a U turn to get the 40k people back, they just need to make the promise that this time it will be good...

Which they've done over five edition changes since I've been playing, and it's never been true. It's always come up with new and exciting problems to stack on top of the old problems.

 kodos wrote:
GW does not need to make a U turn to get the 40k people back, they just need to make the promise that this time it will be good

And it is not like GW has not done a 180, like from 7th to 8th or WHFB to AoS, when they feel the need for it.

And it is not like the current situation is very different from 7th, and while was easy to get people playing OPR during end of 7th, it was nearly impossible after 8th was released

Yes OPR will be around after 10th is released, if the hype for it will stay depends if GW can get goodwill of the community or not

GW have indeed done U-turns. 40k 2nd edition to 3rd edition, WFB 5th edition to 6th edition, WFB to AoS. Epic To Epic 40,000, etc. The big changes usual come after a while with a certain system. In 40k 3rd to 7th weren't that different, they still had the same gameplay, it was more things on the edges that had changed.

8th and 9th still share a lot of the same gameplay, again just things on the edges that are different, so I feel confident in saying that 10th won't be a big change to what we are seeing now with current 40k. I'd love to be wrong, as I would like 40k to be a good system, that's doesn't groan under its own weight. Aside is now, I think k GW are focusing on the tournament crowd, as that crowd is more interested in chasing a meta, so will buy the current hot thing that helps them dominate the tournament scene. GW like all companies are in it to make money, the tournaments crowd are for GW a golden goose.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
. . . my community being on a One Page Rules kick . . .

OPR is one of the best developments in 40k in the past few years. There needs to be direct competition in the 40k space.

100% agreed, havnt had that much fun with 40k in a long time



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:


Which are the unit size limits that 40k's had since 3rd. Sigmar's still got very similar cost per model to 40k, and the army sizes aren't that far off.

I am not AoS expert, by my Lumineth Lords army doesn't have any big monsters and consists of 50 infantry and 10 cavalery, plys heroes. And it plays great and is fun. to Play a working GK army I would have to buy 4 NDKs, 50 power armoured GKs. And am not even sure the list is even that good now, considering it struggles vs all the stuff which is top tier right now.

what point are you trying to make? That not every pile of model works as a list?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 kodos wrote:
GW does not need to make a U turn to get the 40k people back, they just need to make the promise that this time it will be good...

Which they've done over five edition changes since I've been playing, and it's never been true. It's always come up with new and exciting problems to stack on top of the old problems.

and people still fall for it because "now it will be different"
I also thought with 8th and the disaster that was 7th that GW learned something, but it looks like they learned the wrong things and now take the same road again

 stonehorse wrote:
I'd love to be wrong, as I would like 40k to be a good system, that's doesn't groan under its own weight. Aside is now, I think k GW are focusing on the tournament crowd, as that crowd is more interested in chasing a meta, so will buy the current hot thing that helps them dominate the tournament scene. GW like all companies are in it to make money, the tournaments crowd are for GW a golden goose.

by now 40k will never be a good system again as long as GW make the rules, and if they make a big change again simply depends on how well 9th will do until its end and GW deciding if they can make another edition or need something fresh and new to start over again

I disagree. GW often hits "good" but they rarely hit "great".

 kodos wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 kodos wrote:
GW does not need to make a U turn to get the 40k people back, they just need to make the promise that this time it will be good...

Which they've done over five edition changes since I've been playing, and it's never been true. It's always come up with new and exciting problems to stack on top of the old problems.

and people still fall for it because "now it will be different"
I also thought with 8th and the disaster that was 7th that GW learned something, but it looks like they learned the wrong things and now take the same road again

 stonehorse wrote:
I'd love to be wrong, as I would like 40k to be a good system, that's doesn't groan under its own weight. Aside is now, I think k GW are focusing on the tournament crowd, as that crowd is more interested in chasing a meta, so will buy the current hot thing that helps them dominate the tournament scene. GW like all companies are in it to make money, the tournaments crowd are for GW a golden goose.

by now 40k will never be a good system again as long as GW make the rules, and if they make a big change again simply depends on how well 9th will do until its end and GW deciding if they can make another edition or need something fresh and new to start over again

You keep using that word "if". There's no if, just when
GW can & will make another edition. And that really has nothing to do with the size of the changes being made. The only real question is WHEN. Is it summer of 2023? Or is it the summer of 2024?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Toofast wrote:
That is insanely profitable. Revenue of 191.5M, profit after taxes of 76.4M? And they need to raise prices because their margins are too thin?! No, they're taking an opportunity to price gouge because they think they can get away with it due to global inflation and a war.

20M after dividends. And the price increase was scheduled long before the war in Ukraine, let's not confuse those things as being related.

And I never defended the prices, just said it looks like they aren't trying to maintain profits specifically, but rather dividends.

That's the real problem, they prioritize dividends over their product or their customers. Companies like Ferrari, Louis Vuitton, Apple, etc (who GW wants to be in the miniatures market) did not get where they are by paying big dividends at the expense of the quality of their product or the happiness of their customers. They made a quality product first, then they worried about their customers, and those 2 things made them profitable enough to look attractive to investors. If you do it the other way around, you gradually lose customers and consequently marketshare. It's honestly rare to see a company that leads their industry be so hated by their customers. I'm into a lot of other hobbies and never hear anywhere near the amount of complaints about Rolex/Omega, Snap-On, Porsche, Ferrari, Gucci, and the list goes on. Nobody in those hobbies thinks the company actively hates them or is clueless about how to make their own product. People might talk badly or make memes about certain models, but not the company as a whole. Now why is GW so unique in being the only industry leader that is actively hated by a large portion of their customerbase? Are we all crazy or does GW just see their customers as wallets with legs?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 stonehorse wrote:

 kodos wrote:

so OPR is sidegrade rather than an upgrade for me (and I fear that as soon as GW brings a new Edition and promise that this time they will really try, all the hype about OPR will be gone)

I strongly doubt GW will do a 180° turn and simplify 40K to what OPR have produced. As it is GW seem to be hell bent on making their games convoluted ad a way to add depth.

The OPR systems are, I feel very safe from losing appeal. Not just due to their rules, but also the great 3D miniatures they have as well.

They think rolling more dice, having more random tables, and having the rules for 1 army split into 7 books = "depth"



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:

And it is not like the current situation is very different from 7th

They're making the exact same mistakes just a few years apart. Not a great sign for a company that's been around for 40 years. It reminds me of when I was like 3 and put my hand on the waffle iron to see if it was hot, and then a couple weeks later I did it again. Except this is a whole boardroom full of adults with degrees earning 6-7 figure compensation packages doing that.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I disagree. GW often hits "good" but they rarely hit "great".

I disagree. GW often hits okay or fine, and rarely hits good.

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I disagree. GW often hits "good" but they rarely hit "great".

I disagree. GW often hits okay or fine, and rarely hits good.

Eh, I feel that 3rd, 5th and 8th were good. I really enjoyed playing those editions.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I disagree. GW often hits "good" but they rarely hit "great".

I disagree. GW often hits okay or fine, and rarely hits good.

Eh, I feel that 3rd, 5th and 8th were good. I really enjoyed playing those editions.

I will say, I was mostly talking about current 40k, but I have gone back to older GW games, especially WHFB 6th. I love WHFB 6th. If we're talking about the entire GW lifetime, I'll agree they often hit good.

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I disagree. GW often hits "good" but they rarely hit "great".

I disagree. GW often hits okay or fine, and rarely hits good.

I think Necromunda and Titanicus are good rulesets. Necro campaigns should have a better catchup mechanic and less "winner takes all and becomes even more likely to keep winning" but overall still good. I think the issue with 40k is that nobody at GW has any idea what they want it to be. They want beer and pretzels garage fluffhammer, but they also want people to spend thousands traveling to tournaments that are streamed on Twitch. The two goals seem diametrically opposed to each other. The things that make for fun beer and pretzels games or fluffy armies that play vastly different are the same things unbalancing the game. Sure Tau have great shooting tech and 40k years in the future obviously they can detect and fire at living things they don't have direct line of sight to, but if you can't find a way to balance it then it's a bad/unfun game mechanic.

I would say since 2010 or so GW has been utter fail in the rules department for any of their games.

They have moments of brilliantly shining "ok" or "meh" but often it is mired in busted garbage that people pick up on within a day of a ruleset coming out that you then have to politic with your gaming group to keep out.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Eh, I feel that 3rd, 5th and 8th were good. I really enjoyed playing those editions.

8th was horrible if you played specific armies. And even the armies that were good often were forced in to running gigantic ally formations to be even considered remotely viable. No idea about the other editions, I have my doubts if it ever was different though.

Rules, balance , how fun or unfun the game is GW does not care about those. As long as the money generated, and it is more then they have to spend and save, they are good. And people really do seem to be willing to pay for rules and buy the models no matter how good or bad they are.

Karol wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Eh, I feel that 3rd, 5th and 8th were good. I really enjoyed playing those editions.

8th was horrible if you played specific armies. And even the armies that were good often were forced in to running gigantic ally formations to be even considered remotely viable. No idea about the other editions, I have my doubts if it ever was different though.

Rules, balance , how fun or unfun the game is GW does not care about those. As long as the money generated, and it is more then they have to spend and save, they are good. And people really do seem to be willing to pay for rules and buy the models no matter how good or bad they are.

The fact they never managed to balance all the armies is why I merely said "good". "Great" games have better balance, and "perfect" games make every choice feel like it's worth making and there are no bad choices and dominant strategies aren't limited to a single tool.

ccs wrote:
You keep using that word "if". There's no if, just when

my point was that if 9th is doing good enough, they make another similar one, if it does not we see another U turn in rules with 10th

 Eldarsif wrote:
I would, however, love for more people to jump onto the Star Wars Legion wagon. I want that game to succeed and not some god forsaken World War 1/2/3 wargame that this industry is often riddled with. That's what I find most tiring about the entire hobby and the reason I haven't gone much outside of GW games except with MCP and Legion.

I don't think there are any WW themed wargames in the industry that have managed to succeed, except Bolt Action and maybe Flames of War. But I would be surprised if Marvel or Legion are not already a huge success, because I personally see these two everywhere here and can make a guess they do at least fine everywhere else.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

The fact they never managed to balance all the armies is why I merely said "good". "Great" games have better balance, and "perfect" games make every choice feel like it's worth making and there are no bad choices and dominant strategies aren't limited to a single tool.

Okey, but in w40k the best edition balance wise is something like 9th with a fast revolving door on who is at the top, and armies being on a 65% or higher win rates for months. 8th was not a question of 9 out of 20 armies are doing good, 6 are doing well and the rest is kind of a meh. It was always, so you play Inari, good fun for you not so much for everyone else. Then came the castellan lists. Every imperial was running the loyal 32, and if someone didn't then they probably took the ad mecha version of it. Marines for years were, either play razorback spam with or without Gulliman, and playing most of marines made no sense at all. Playing CSM with actual csm in the list was plain stupid. Etc. Now great or good are descriptives. If you get beaten with a stick 4 times a day, getting beaten once a day is great. But it doesn't change the fact that to an outsider you get beaten every day.

GW games, and to be more specific w40k, run on inertia. there is a ton of models, ton of people, the game is generally bad for most armies, most of the time. The most crucial thing in any game or group activity is to find other people to play with. And w40k has tons of those people. Other games can be the best game in the world, but if I play an army that on avarge wins, or loses, to my only two opponents. I won't be doing the activity for long. Fun in w40k is very reglamented. And why some armies have it better, like eldar of various kinds for example. For most other armies it ain't so.
Take my GK dudes. They were good for a few months in 5th ed and then they were good for 2 months in 9th. And am ignoring internal balance, etc. Good army build is good army build. The time between 5th and 9th is what 10+ years? With most people not lasting more then an edition that is a huge gap between people that had fun, didn't have fun and had fun again. Probably the same can be said about the various marines chapters, csm etc. Armies in w40k can, and do go, through cycles of being bad that last more then edition. And that is just horrible considering the time and money investment the game requires.

I also think that is why the whole additional stuff becomes so important to some people. Painting suddenly is more important then gaming. Lore and reading too. I mean no wonder if your army is bad for 3-4 editions or worse you pick 2-3 armies and all of them end up being bad for most , or all, the time you would have to explain to yourself why your still doing it. Other games, historicals , skirmish have models and have people paint them too. But I have never seen someone playing infinity or bolt actions, say that painting their squads is the hobby. With GW games it happens all the time.

And Warlord Games are increasing their prices:

Common, everything is going to increase in price now. With the possability of WW3 on the horizon, all the big wigs are gonna hike up prices to match demand, which is being driven by fear. It's a perfect capitalist market. Gas, food, plastics, metals, even wood is sky rocketing.

A 2x4 rough cut at lowes used to be between 1-2 dollars per 8" plank. Now it's 5-7 dollars. A 50lb bag of pavers sand used to be 3-5 USD, now its around 11. Turkey meat sliced per pound used to be 2.45 usd. Now it's about 9-11. Gas used to be 3.30/gallon here where I live. Now it's 5-6/gallon. Electricity took a sharp spike to. My home's electrical bill doubled this year, because my state power company said that their market index predicts cost of generating electricity will triple in the next 5-10 years. My bill used to be 80/month, for my self and my wife. Now it's 160/month.

Are we REALLY surprised that major retailers are raising the cost of their goods?

the price would have been up WWIII, covid or not. In my country as part of the anti covid laws the goverment dropped the vat on food products to 0%. yet somehow a ham that cost 6,99 a year ago now costs 8,99(on sale that is, because normal price is 10,99).

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Common, everything is going to increase in price now. With the possability of WW3 on the horizon, all the big wigs are gonna hike up prices to match demand, which is being driven by fear. It's a perfect capitalist market. Gas, food, plastics, metals, even wood is sky rocketing.

A 2x4 rough cut at lowes used to be between 1-2 dollars per 8" plank. Now it's 5-7 dollars. A 50lb bag of pavers sand used to be 3-5 USD, now its around 11. Turkey meat sliced per pound used to be 2.45 usd. Now it's about 9-11. Gas used to be 3.30/gallon here where I live. Now it's 5-6/gallon. Electricity took a sharp spike to. My home's electrical bill doubled this year, because my state power company said that their market index predicts cost of generating electricity will triple in the next 5-10 years. My bill used to be 80/month, for my self and my wife. Now it's 160/month.

Are we REALLY surprised that major retailers are raising the cost of their goods?

I built my kids a big playset a the very start of the pandemic as parks started closing in my area (march 2020). I have the spreadsheets, I was paying $6 for 12 foot 2x6 prime #2 ground contact rated 2x6s. I spent about $2.5k in wood building it (multiplatform, 3 slides, climbing wall, multiple types of swings, its huge) fast forward to last week I went to grab some 2x6s again to build another planter bed for my garden and they are $22 each now. That playset now probably has $10k in wood alone. Meanwhile my most recent model a boomdakka snazzwagon went from $45 on release 4ish years ago ($36 street price normally) to $55 now ($44 street price after flgs discounts, $46.72 through Amazon). Compared to other areas of inflation you ar right recently its not as bad.

That said a 2x6 takes much more effort to grow the tree, mill the stock down, dry and pressure treat, then the shipping cost for size and weight is also a lot more then costs to injection mold a model kit on a per unit basis. I think GW is in an odd position though where if they actually lowered prices they would sell more models as they are relying on whales buying a lot of models vs actually seeing large player growth in the market and see overall revenue grow as players would join the community and some who quit might return. While they might get less profit per kit the total sales would likely jump so they could end up more profitable long term. Unfortunatly with markets being what they are an quarter to quarter profit being more important than long term growth i doubt we will see that happen.

 SgtBANZAI wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I would, however, love for more people to jump onto the Star Wars Legion wagon. I want that game to succeed and not some god forsaken World War 1/2/3 wargame that this industry is often riddled with. That's what I find most tiring about the entire hobby and the reason I haven't gone much outside of GW games except with MCP and Legion.

I don't think there are any WW themed wargames in the industry that have managed to succeed, except Bolt Action and maybe Flames of War. But I would be surprised if Marvel or Legion are not already a huge success, because I personally see these two everywhere here and can make a guess they do at least fine everywhere else.

MCP has managed to take foothold where I live so there are exciting times to be an MCP player. Legion, however, hasn't really taken off. I do know that some of the early resin sculpts did put people off the entire game, but that has been changing as AMG has moved more and more to plastic.

I think Legion also just suffers from a very limited legacy(if we ignore the expanded universe) so there aren't as many factions and two of the factions are faceless white boys with guns. I do believe, however, that with Mandalorian, Obi Wan, and Boba Fett shows that we will see the game expand more and more as more shows and movies hit the market.