Think about it. Chapter serfs live with Space Marines every day, tending to their most mundane needs, caring for them when they're at their most vulnerable. They clean up Ragnar Blackmane's puke after he's drunk too much mead. They change the blood- and urine-stained bedsheets of injured warriors. They know that the dreaded Interrogator-Chaplain Asmodai secretly has a sweet tooth, and that Kor'sarro Khan avoids shellfish because it makes his stomach hurt. The eldest among them remember when a celebrated squad leader was just a nervous 12-year-old boy undergoing his first trials.

This is not to say that chapter serfs don't respect their masters. They can certainly act obsequious, if they know what's good for them. But they are in a unique position to realize that, while Space Marines may be superhuman in some ways, they are very human in others.

They are the Alfred Pennyworth of the Adeptus Astartes. Where others see Batman, they see Master Wayne.

.

Depends on the Chapter and the individual.

They are literally slaves, I doubt they have much in the way of good feelings towards their oppressors. A life of toil and hardship whilst being treated like gak?

Heavily depends on the Chapter, in some they are little more than slaves. In others they are treated with respect and even are given positions of power and authority.

That also depends on the Chapter and the specific Astartes the serf serves.
A slave of the Carcharadons or Flesh Eaters would have a garbage life but a serf of the Scythes of the Emperor (pre Sotha getting consumed) or the Ultramarines wouldn't have an easy life but it would be fulfilling and rewarding.

It has been a while since I read it, so I may be misremembering, but Lukas the Trickster has a great scene where the head chef basically tells Lukas and his entourage to stay out of the way and jog on.

It would be dependent on the chapter culture, and ranking of the serfs (some more experienced and trusted than others), but it's not entirely unreasonable that they see and know the more human sides of the Astartes.

 Gert wrote:
That also depends on the Chapter and the specific Astartes the serf serves.
A slave of the Carcharadons or Flesh Eaters would have a garbage life but a serf of the Scythes of the Emperor (pre Sotha getting consumed) or the Ultramarines wouldn't have an easy life but it would be fulfilling and rewarding.

For the most part slavery isn’t fulfilling or rewarding, even if you are a slave to a so called Nobel person. If you have slaves your nobility is only really superficial. Any chapter serf, no matter how the chapter tries to spin its slavery is a thoroughly miserable existence. The lucky ones are the servitors, at least they don’t know what’s going on.

At the same time they see first hand the rigours and struggles that the Marines face. They tend wounds and clean the sheets from when the Emperors Angels come back from fighting the insanity of Chaos; the horrors of Xenos and the darkness of those who turn against the Emperor.


They are priests directly within the Church of the Imperium tending to the Angels themselves.



They won't regard the Marines the same as regular people, however whilst they'd have familiar regular contact with them, they could still be awed by them. Still consider them higher than themselves (which being a serf/slave system would reinforce). In many ways they could respect and revere them even more than regular people.

Regular people might only hear of Marines in stories and legend whilst Chaos is something they've never heard of except perhaps as a whisper.

It would vary by the chapter. Within imperial society, chapter serfdom is a position of respect, and many chapter serfs would be trained, armed and trusted to act to defend chapter facilities in times of war(such as repelling boarding actions on their warships while the marines are planetside).

Some chapters would no doubt treat their serfs as classical slaves, but many of the more enlightened chapters would treat them well, and their lives would be better than the average imperial citizen.

ADB is a good author for this sort of stuff, as he likes to portray marines through the eyes of baseline humans. Would recommend Spears of the Emperor (I think that's the name of the book) for this as the pov character is a chapter serfs.

Andykp wrote:

For the most part slavery isn’t fulfilling or rewarding, even if you are a slave to a so called Nobel person. If you have slaves your nobility is only really superficial. Any chapter serf, no matter how the chapter tries to spin its slavery is a thoroughly miserable existence. The lucky ones are the servitors, at least they don’t know what’s going on.

Well what's better? Being a worker in a Manufactorum where you'll likely never see the sky or leave your planet, or being a serf of the Ultramarines where you have safety, constant food and your job is to polish armour?
I mean unless we're having a proper philosophical discussion about what is and is not slavery, I'm not sure pulling hairs over this one distinction is important.

I'm having a hard time seeing a Shipmaster as a slave. Reminder that some Chapters use serfs to command their ships.

 Gert wrote:
Depends on the Chapter and the individual.

This!

Some treat you well and some really don't.

Also hevaily depends on their position - are you one of the cleaners or are you a shipmaster.

 Gert wrote:

Andykp wrote:

For the most part slavery isn’t fulfilling or rewarding, even if you are a slave to a so called Nobel person. If you have slaves your nobility is only really superficial. Any chapter serf, no matter how the chapter tries to spin its slavery is a thoroughly miserable existence. The lucky ones are the servitors, at least they don’t know what’s going on.

Well what's better? Being a worker in a Manufactorum where you'll likely never see the sky or leave your planet, or being a serf of the Ultramarines where you have safety, constant food and your job is to polish armour?
I mean unless we're having a proper philosophical discussion about what is and is not slavery, I'm not sure pulling hairs over this one distinction is important.

If it was just polishing armour it wouldn’t be so bad but it’s not is it. Most life in the imperium isn’t nice or fulfilling, that’s the point. Serfs being safe? A fortress momentary ever been attacked, were the serfs on ryns world safe, how about on Macragge when behemoth attacked? Emperors children serfs safe? I also imagine corporal punishment from a marines isn’t particularly pleasant. There are obviously better and worse jobs as a slave but none of it would be pleasant and certainly not fulfilling. And rewarding?

As for some chapters treating their slaves well, they are still slaves. As horrible as the setting is let’s not forget that the slaves in the setting will be even more downtrodden and miserable than the lowliest hive dwellers. Slaves are pretty universally at the bottom of the socio-ecconomic pile. This argument is like when people try to justify the genocide in the setting. It doesn’t make it ok to have slaves if there are miserable and dangerous lives to be had out there. And that’s the point, even the “heroes” of the setting do horrific and unimaginable things like commit genocide and have slaves.

I expect there is a lot of indoctrination involved, DA serfs are probably as slavishly cultish about the chapter as the marines. They won’t live a good life from our perspective but they are probably conditioned to think that they should suffer for the good of the chapter and humanity.

In contrast I bet working for the salamanders is pretty good. Sick pay, holiday entitlement on top of public holidays, structured career progression and a subsidised canteen

Andykp wrote:

As for some chapters treating their slaves well, they are still slaves. As horrible as the setting is let’s not forget that the slaves in the setting will be even more downtrodden and miserable than the lowliest hive dwellers. Slaves are pretty universally at the bottom of the socio-ecconomic pile.

You are wrong. Best example being the Janissaries which were one of the political powers of the Ottoman empire.

The socioeconomic status of slaves is a complex issue depending on the historical context.

There are many forms of slavery historically and various forms will take place in 40K - and some Hive dwellings may well be indentured or similar.

 Tyran wrote:

Andykp wrote:

As for some chapters treating their slaves well, they are still slaves. As horrible as the setting is let’s not forget that the slaves in the setting will be even more downtrodden and miserable than the lowliest hive dwellers. Slaves are pretty universally at the bottom of the socio-ecconomic pile.

You are wrong. Best example being the Janissaries which were one of the political powers of the Ottoman empire.

The socioeconomic status of slaves is a complex issue depending on the historical context.

The janisarries were an elite fighting force, they were paid and allowed to marry and things. So not really comparable to the chapter serfs of 40K. More like marines really.

Yes historical slavery is complex and much of 40K life is similar to many forms of real world slavery, but enslaved servants with no rights, no freedoms etc is pretty crappy.

Yes the galaxy is a big place and there will be many relationships between masters and slaves and many different names for them. But those that treat them well wouldn’t probably call them serfs or slaves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
There are many forms of slavery historically and various forms will take place in 40K - and some Hive dwellings may well be indentured or similar.

No doubt, most types of imperial citizens life is miserable and comparable to a slavery in many ways.

Andykp wrote:

The janisarries were an elite fighting force, they were paid and allowed to marry and things. So not really comparable to the chapter serfs of 40K. More like marines really.

Marines are not allowed to marry nor are paid.
In fact Chapter serfs actually have more rights than Marines as serfs are allowed to have families.

In either Lukas the Trickster or War of the Fang, we spend a fair bit of time with some of the Space Wolf chapter serfs. They have families and familial connections. They seem to be free to partner up with whomever they want. I got the impression that their lives are disciplined and not exactly glamorous, but they're not being worked to death, starving, or generally afraid for their lives either. Sure, Fenris might get attacked every now and again, but it seems like the Fang itself has only really been invaded like, twice in the last 10,000 years.

None of which makes serfdom/slavery more ethical. Just pointing out that it's not accurate to say that chapter serfs are (necessarily) living miserable lives full of toil and without families or romance or what have you. I wouldn't choose to be a chapter serf OR a manufactorum worker, but one of those is definitely an improvement over the other. And despite how unethical serfdom/slavery is, we definitely see plenty examples of serfs/slaves in the 41st millenium who do revere their masters. So as terrible as their situations may be, reverering your marine overlords is apparently still a possible outcome.

Heck, I imagine chapter serfs might even be allowed to leave (despite the name) and set off on their own if they don't have any particularly sensitive security information about the chapter. Again, depending on the chapter. Anyone working in the Fang probably knows too many of its secrets for the wolves to let them go. But a fleet-based chapter? I could see them being able to turn in their resignation and stay on that space station their battle barge was refueling at. And at that point, the ethics (though still terrible) get a bit grayer for me. Like, such a human was still born into a system of serfdom/slavery, but their ability to leave their serfdom at any given pit stop kind of recontextualizes things. Being born into enforced servitude is still unethical, but they might actually end up with a healthier early life and more freedom in their adulthood than most of the imperium.

But addressing the initial topic, yeah. Serfs are more aware of the realities of the marines. Whether or not this prevents reverence is going to vary from chapter to chapter and serf to serf. That reverence just won't be rooted in the same level of ignorance as a lot of the imperium.

Andykp wrote:

If it was just polishing armour it wouldn’t be so bad but it’s not is it. Most life in the imperium isn’t nice or fulfilling, that’s the point. Serfs being safe? A fortress momentary ever been attacked, were the serfs on ryns world safe, how about on Macragge when behemoth attacked? Emperors children serfs safe? I also imagine corporal punishment from a marines isn’t particularly pleasant. There are obviously better and worse jobs as a slave but none of it would be pleasant and certainly not fulfilling. And rewarding?

As for some chapters treating their slaves well, they are still slaves. As horrible as the setting is let’s not forget that the slaves in the setting will be even more downtrodden and miserable than the lowliest hive dwellers. Slaves are pretty universally at the bottom of the socio-ecconomic pile. This argument is like when people try to justify the genocide in the setting. It doesn’t make it ok to have slaves if there are miserable and dangerous lives to be had out there. And that’s the point, even the “heroes” of the setting do horrific and unimaginable things like commit genocide and have slaves.

And? We're not debating the ethics of slavery so that's irrelevant.
But as told by others there are Chapters that treat their serfs with respect and value them. I'm not saying every single Chapter does this, in fact the very first thing I said was "It depends".

Some of the Chapters are really harsh - like the Carcharodons

Andykp wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

Andykp wrote:

As for some chapters treating their slaves well, they are still slaves. As horrible as the setting is let’s not forget that the slaves in the setting will be even more downtrodden and miserable than the lowliest hive dwellers. Slaves are pretty universally at the bottom of the socio-ecconomic pile.

You are wrong. Best example being the Janissaries which were one of the political powers of the Ottoman empire.

The socioeconomic status of slaves is a complex issue depending on the historical context.

The janisarries were an elite fighting force, they were paid and allowed to marry and things.

Towards the end, as the empire declined and they forced the empire to give them rights (and also helped along their increasing ineffectiveness as a fighting force). Initially, they did not have rights, weren't paid and couldn't marry.

Slaves are pretty universally at the bottom of the socio-ecconomic pile.

Also depends. Wasn't always true in ancient Rome (there were worse fates, and several types of slavery were economic more than anything. A poor scholar 'slave' kept to tutor rich children had a much better life than a quarry drudge, regardless of the fact that the latter could be 'free') and also isn't broadly true in several caste based societies where there were _definitely_ worse fates.. In the imperium, that assertion certainly is not universal.

But that still doesn't have anything to do with chapter serfs, where it depends greatly. Several groups of chapter serfs definitely revere their marines.

Guardsman wrote:This is not to say that chapter serfs don't respect their masters. They can certainly act obsequious, if they know what's good for them. But they are in a unique position to realize that, while Space Marines may be superhuman in some ways, they are very human in others.

Eh. In many cases they get to see that they _aren't_ human and don't grasp human relationships. The Space Wolf vs Thousand Sons novel goes into the chapter serfs a fair amount. Respect is definitely there, and obsequiousness would be held in contempt by both marines and serfs. But the serf perspective increasingly broadens to the point that they very much realize their masters are not human.

Exactly. It'll vary with chapter, rank, and method of joining.


Chapter - a chapter like the carcharodons treats its serfs as straight up slaves, and most are - prisoners from rebel worlds or people who failed to defend their own planet without help. There's a level of contempt there and it can't help but engender fear, hatred or both in response. The salamanders, by comparison, have serfs who've lived with them all their lives. Yes, a salamanders battle brother is eight feet tall with coal-black skin and blazing eyes but he's also the town Smith whose cakes you used to sneak in and filch when you were three* so at a fundamental level you're never quite going to be scared of him even if he's later your commanding officer on a frigate.

Rank - as noted, a serf might be a labourer in the chapter fortress who rarely sees the astartes, might be a personal bodyman who talks with them every day and has very much the 'alfred' relationship - especially a seasoned serf with a newly elevated battle brother - or even a shipmaster who might in practical terms be giving the marines 'orders' (diplomatically phrased as requests or suggestions no doubt).

Method of joining - some serfs are straight up impressed slaves. Some are willing - every member of the imperial fists, marine or serf - has been asked at least once 'do you want to do this' - and some might be 'failed aspirants' who have a very different view of the marines if they're a peer or even a former close friend.



* he saw you. He's seen every child who's done that for the last century because a toddler 'sneaking' make as much noise as a small ork waaaggh! and he's a goddamn space marine but he secretly let's them get away with it because its funny watching the ludicrous ways they try. He doesn't even really like cake anyway.

Andykp wrote:

 Gert wrote:
That also depends on the Chapter and the specific Astartes the serf serves.
A slave of the Carcharadons or Flesh Eaters would have a garbage life but a serf of the Scythes of the Emperor (pre Sotha getting consumed) or the Ultramarines wouldn't have an easy life but it would be fulfilling and rewarding.

For the most part slavery isn’t fulfilling or rewarding, even if you are a slave to a so called Nobel person. If you have slaves your nobility is only really superficial. Any chapter serf, no matter how the chapter tries to spin its slavery is a thoroughly miserable existence. The lucky ones are the servitors, at least they don’t know what’s going on.

That is completely wrong. Slavery is generally horrible, but there are slaves who have risen to power in our history. Such as the Mamluks of Egypt, the Ghazvanids, and Malik Ambar. These slaves became rulers who lived in luxurious mansions, ate the best food, rode to battles in expensive armor and horses, and controlled the lives of many supposedly free people. Space Marine serfs are no different. Some will toil under harsh conditions for the rest of their lives without any reward while others become effectively warriors and nobles.

bibotot wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 Gert wrote:
That also depends on the Chapter and the specific Astartes the serf serves.
A slave of the Carcharadons or Flesh Eaters would have a garbage life but a serf of the Scythes of the Emperor (pre Sotha getting consumed) or the Ultramarines wouldn't have an easy life but it would be fulfilling and rewarding.

For the most part slavery isn’t fulfilling or rewarding, even if you are a slave to a so called Nobel person. If you have slaves your nobility is only really superficial. Any chapter serf, no matter how the chapter tries to spin its slavery is a thoroughly miserable existence. The lucky ones are the servitors, at least they don’t know what’s going on.

That is completely wrong. Slavery is generally horrible, but there are slaves who have risen to power in our history. Such as the Mamluks of Egypt, the Ghazvanids, and Malik Ambar. These slaves became rulers who lived in luxurious mansions, ate the best food, rode to battles in expensive armor and horses, and controlled the lives of many supposedly free people. Space Marine serfs are no different. Some will toil under harsh conditions for the rest of their lives without any reward while others become effectively warriors and nobles.

I am happy to agree with all that if you change the start of the last sentence “MOST will toil under harsh ……”

The examples you give and those you could find in the setting will be drops in the ocean compared to the millions of slaves that have been. But otherwise, yeah makes sense.

Ok but again we're not talking about all the slaves ever in the Imperium.
And while most Chapters might be dismissive of mortals, they aren't actively killing or abusing their valued Chapter assets just for kicks.

Nah, maybe just for ritual and tradition. . . it wouldn't be out of the question.

locarno24 805368 11374794 wrote:

Yes, a salamanders battle brother is eight feet tall with coal-black skin and blazing eyes but he's also the town Smith whose cakes you used to sneak in and filch when you were three*

* he saw you. He's seen every child who's done that for the last century because a toddler 'sneaking' make as much noise as a small ork waaaggh! and he's a goddamn space marine but he secretly let's them get away with it because its funny watching the ludicrous ways they try. He doesn't even really like cake anyway.

This...

^sniff^

This...seriously needs to be a story.

 Tyran wrote:

Andykp wrote:

As for some chapters treating their slaves well, they are still slaves. As horrible as the setting is let’s not forget that the slaves in the setting will be even more downtrodden and miserable than the lowliest hive dwellers. Slaves are pretty universally at the bottom of the socio-ecconomic pile.

You are wrong. Best example being the Janissaries which were one of the political powers of the Ottoman empire.

The socioeconomic status of slaves is a complex issue depending on the historical context.

Didn't the Chinese Empire have high ranking slaves too? That's what the Eunuchs were, weren't they?

locarno24 wrote:
Exactly. It'll vary with chapter, rank, and method of joining.


Chapter - a chapter like the carcharodons treats its serfs as straight up slaves, and most are - prisoners from rebel worlds or people who failed to defend their own planet without help. There's a level of contempt there and it can't help but engender fear, hatred or both in response. The salamanders, by comparison, have serfs who've lived with them all their lives. Yes, a salamanders battle brother is eight feet tall with coal-black skin and blazing eyes but he's also the town Smith whose cakes you used to sneak in and filch when you were three* so at a fundamental level you're never quite going to be scared of him even if he's later your commanding officer on a frigate.


* he saw you. He's seen every child who's done that for the last century because a toddler 'sneaking' make as much noise as a small ork waaaggh! and he's a goddamn space marine but he secretly let's them get away with it because its funny watching the ludicrous ways they try. He doesn't even really like cake anyway.

That is so heart warmingly glorious it nearly makes me want to do a small Salamander force based with him as the captain...

As others have said, it will depend.

However, one suspects that in many examples they’d be akin to Road Crew for Massive Bands.

You’d absolutely know your role, and that You Are Not Them, and never will be. However, rather than say, The Beatles, they’re John, Paul, George and Ringo to you.

Unless your crew for Mariah “apparently you’re not allowed to look her in the eye” Carey or other egomaniacs?

And no. Peculiar Riders are not necessarily a sign of egomania. Esoteric requests (Brahn M&Ms to fill a Brandy Glass) can be included so the band can easily see if you read the Rider.

Please correct me, but from Brothers of the Snake, it makes "serfs" or "petitioners" out to be basically humans that have undergone gene therapy, and are roughly the bare minimum of what a Space Marine is, and have yet to make the actual cut and get their extra parts put in. It's the same in Dante isn't it? Serfs are still 7' tall humans with super strength, but just haven't gotten the call up?

Point being: A Serf or Aspirant, knows enough of what it is to be a space marine to not revere them as gods. As a base human knows a servitor isn't a god, just a very enhanced human.

No, Serfs can sometimes be failed Aspirants but they are not all failed Aspirants. They are just regular humans trained in ways that service their Astartes masters.

Does that mean that technically, serfs could be Servitors?

No, Serfs and Servitors are different things.
A Servitor can only conduct basic tasks unless slaved to anothers control. They are used for menial tasks button pushing and the like.
Serfs are still normal humans, they're just trained to do jobs that are required of Astartes servants. Starship captains, vital crew, armourers, attendants and scribes are all roles that Serfs fill.

There are numerous instances of servitors being used to "arm" Astartes. If you are talking about Maintenance, or repair, isn't that the purview of the Forge Master (BT nomenclature)? I thought Armor and Weapons were maintained by the chapter brothers, why would serfs be allowed to repair what is essentially holy relics of the chapter?

Starship captains are Serfs? Since when? The commander of a vessel is usually either an astartes, a Naval officer, or a member of the Mechanicus. At least in my knowledge. Can you show me an example of a ship captain being a "Serf"?

Perhaps it would be best to define terms before going ahead. I feel a serf is a member of a chapter, although the lowest rank, barely above slave. Until you showed me I was wrong, I though Serfs were enhanced humans. I honestly can't think of a time in the books where I've seen the term used and a description provided.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There are numerous instances of servitors being used to "arm" Astartes. If you are talking about Maintenance, or repair, isn't that the purview of the Forge Master (BT nomenclature)? I thought Armor and Weapons were maintained by the chapter brothers, why would serfs be allowed to repair what is essentially holy relics of the chapter?

Starship captains are Serfs? Since when? The commander of a vessel is usually either an astartes, a Naval officer, or a member of the Mechanicus. At least in my knowledge. Can you show me an example of a ship captain being a "Serf"?

Perhaps it would be best to define terms before going ahead. I feel a serf is a member of a chapter, although the lowest rank, barely above slave. Until you showed me I was wrong, I though Serfs were enhanced humans. I honestly can't think of a time in the books where I've seen the term used and a description provided.

you seem to think serfs are somehow "lesser lower class" a chapter serf is basicly any human whom is part of the "non astartes support" of a chapter. this means that yes some Chapter serfs occupy important positions that outside the chapter would be deemed to be "powerful ones"

Servitors are not people, serfs are people.

Servitors are basically what the Imperium uses because they will not use robots with AI brains. So they slave human bodies to the role. They aren't classed as human, aren't treated as such or anything.

They are tools.

Within that there's huge variation from those designed quite literally to just push a button, up to those with more complex operations. Having arms replaced with lifters so that it can, under direction, raise heavy armour into place to arm a Space Marine would be one such role. The Serf would thus be doing the work of controlling/overseeing the Servitor on some level - or a forge master would or such.


Basically the Servitor isn't a person its a thing.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There are numerous instances of servitors being used to "arm" Astartes. If you are talking about Maintenance, or repair, isn't that the purview of the Forge Master (BT nomenclature)? I thought Armor and Weapons were maintained by the chapter brothers, why would serfs be allowed to repair what is essentially holy relics of the chapter?

Maintainance is the purview of all of the above. Techmarines maintain advanced systems and equipment, such as a Chapters compliment of Terminator armour. Servitors are often used to armour Astartes but the role can just as easily be performed by Serfs, in fact, Serfs are better as they can adapt to the needs of their masters more readily than Servitors. For example, each Astartes of the Excoriators Chapter has three Serfs who are used for arming, maintenance, scribe work, and importantly flagellation.

Starship captains are Serfs? Since when? The commander of a vessel is usually either an astartes, a Naval officer, or a member of the Mechanicus. At least in my knowledge. Can you show me an example of a ship captain being a "Serf"?

Ok, it's never a Naval officer because the Navy is independent of the Astartes and only a Chapter deeply connected to the Mechanicus such as the Iron Hands would allow a Techpriest to command their vessels. As for Serfs commanding ships, Lotara Sarrin commanded the Conquerer and Escort ships are often commanded entirely by mortal crews as assigning Astartes to them is a waste.

Perhaps it would be best to define terms before going ahead. I feel a serf is a member of a chapter, although the lowest rank, barely above slave. Until you showed me I was wrong, I though Serfs were enhanced humans. I honestly can't think of a time in the books where I've seen the term used and a description provided.

Serf is the catch-all term for a human tithed to a Chapter. The name will vary between Chapters and in the more brutal Chapters, they are just slaves trained to do a specific job. For those Chapters that aren't emo psychos or angry vampires, the position of Serf is an honourable one for mortals as they are vital to the running of a Chapter. The Space Wolves, for example, have specific tribes that have been granted settlement rights to live in the shadow of their keep, the Fang, and it is from these tribes that Serfs and sometimes Aspirants are taken.
A human who lives on a Chapter planet, such as Fenris or Baal, is not automatically a Serf. They have to specifically be "employed" by the Chapter.

 Overread wrote:
Servitors are not people, serfs are people.

Servitors are basically what the Imperium uses because they will not use robots with AI brains. So they slave human bodies to the role. They aren't classed as human, aren't treated as such or anything.

They are tools.

Within that there's huge variation from those designed quite literally to just push a button, up to those with more complex operations. Having arms replaced with lifters so that it can, under direction, raise heavy armour into place to arm a Space Marine would be one such role. The Serf would thus be doing the work of controlling/overseeing the Servitor on some level - or a forge master would or such.


Basically the Servitor isn't a person its a thing.

Legio Titanica begs to differ...

But without getting off topic, my point wasn't that Servitors were humans with minds, but that "Serf" is, in my extremely limited experience (7th forward) a very rare term, that is extremely malleable, with no clear definition. A serf could me a captain of a ship, or they could be the chamber maid. Do you see the difference in that? Or the value in even using the word? A Captain of a naval vessle, especially one belonging to the Astartes that is likely to see constant battle, likely has the highest shola training, enhancement, and is picked from the purest stock of candidates. The Chamber maid likely doesn't have any training.

To use the same term to describe both, essentially robs the word of any meaning or value. It's like calling a President a celebrity. Yes, the term fits, but it greatly under sells the importance of one of them. That's my point. What good is a term like Serf if it can be essentially anything?

Congratulations you have encountered Words and Language.

Serf does have a clear meaning though?
A serf was an agricultural laborer bound to a feudal lord's estate.

The implication in this context is that serfs are bound to a chapter and they have no real autonomy, and are expected to do labour. In the context of being in a Space Marine chapter this could be anywhere from cleaning weapons, to preparing meals and producing food (marines gotta eat too. Can't rely on the Imperium's gakky logistics network) or cleaning toilets.
Because in the grim darkness of the far future, there are still septic tanks.

Much like the feudal serfs of old, how chapter serfs are treated depends on their liege lords.

In short, Chapter Serfs are there to support the theme of Space Marines being monastic feudal knights in space. Whilst they don't strictly follow the definition of a serf, in terms of theme and function they are pretty close.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A serf could me a captain of a ship, or they could be the chamber maid. Do you see the difference in that? Or the value in even using the word? A Captain of a naval vessle, especially one belonging to the Astartes that is likely to see constant battle, likely has the highest shola training, enhancement, and is picked from the purest stock of candidates. The Chamber maid likely doesn't have any training.

To use the same term to describe both, essentially robs the word of any meaning or value. It's like calling a President a celebrity. Yes, the term fits, but it greatly under sells the importance of one of them. That's my point. What good is a term like Serf if it can be essentially anything?

It's a useful term because it describes who they are affiliated with. A chapter serf ship captain is different from an Imperial navy ship captain.

Animus wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A serf could me a captain of a ship, or they could be the chamber maid. Do you see the difference in that? Or the value in even using the word? A Captain of a naval vessle, especially one belonging to the Astartes that is likely to see constant battle, likely has the highest shola training, enhancement, and is picked from the purest stock of candidates. The Chamber maid likely doesn't have any training.

To use the same term to describe both, essentially robs the word of any meaning or value. It's like calling a President a celebrity. Yes, the term fits, but it greatly under sells the importance of one of them. That's my point. What good is a term like Serf if it can be essentially anything?

It's a useful term because it describes who they are affiliated with. A chapter serf ship captain is different from an Imperial navy ship captain.

It also implies a certain degree of servitude.
A Chapter Serf is bound to the Chapter for life. Are Navy captains bound in such a way to the Navy?

If you want to talk Bonded Servitude? Include the Marines in that too.

Once recruited, that’s it. No more freedom. At all. You die, become a Serf, or become an Astartes and serve until you die on some far flung battlefield.

No candidate ever retires.

True, which again ties with the whole monastic theme. Monks tend to be monks for life. Or at least, that's what the perception is.

So again, the difference between a serf and a slave is?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So again, the difference between a serf and a slave is?

Serfs come with the land. Slaves themselves are property.
You can get a bunch of slaves and sell them off to the highest bidder. Can't do that with serfs.
I do understand where the confusion comes from though, as they are both types of forced labour, and serf is actually derived from the Latin word for slave, Servus.

I would assume that Chapter Serfs are bound to the Chapter, much like the Serfs were to the land. I don't think Space Marines can sell their Serfs?

No you can't sell a Serf. At best you can send a portion of Serfs to a newly founded Successor or to a fellow Chapter if they need to rebuild. Space Marines don't have commerce.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So again, the difference between a serf and a slave is?

Serfs come with the land. Slaves themselves are property.
You can get a bunch of slaves and sell them off to the highest bidder. Can't do that with serfs.
I do understand where the confusion comes from though, as they are both types of forced labour, and serf is actually derived from the Latin word for slave, Servus.

I would assume that Chapter Serfs are bound to the Chapter, much like the Serfs were to the land. I don't think Space Marines can sell their Serfs?

Basically what CthuluIsSpy said. Historically it meant you had more rights and there were several classes of serf. A slave is lower than that, where you have absolutely nothing. It seems like picking hairs but the rights you have were historically very important. A serf *could* become a freemen and buy out of their oath to the Landowner but it was rare. A serf could leave the land and go to the city without severe repercussion. A runaway slave would be beaten and perhaps killed. There's not really much in it, it's different levels of a miserable existence after all. There's a lot of significant changes that occur from say the Roman period to the Medieval. And these things are also very different outside of Europe.

In 40k, these things are not exacting. First off, the term serf was used primarily for the Medieval connotation. As said earlier up the thread, the term serf fits into the overall Space Marine aesthetic. Serfdom in 40k is more than likely pretty much the same. There are different classes of serf and that ranges from the top to the bottom. As MDG says, you can argue the Marines themselves are serfs. They are a warrior caste but they still sign the oath to their leigelord and that's that.

It's unlikely lower classes of chapter serfs go to different chapters, once you are in the chapter that's that, especially those that are more secretive.

I would point to the chapter Serfs of the Angels Vermillion.

A slave is someone with not autonomy over their mind or body. The owner decides the fate of the slave, and how that fate will be carried out. Quibling the honor of a tital, or the class system is pointless. A Chapter Serf is not allowed to make decisions about their mind or body, unless given direct permission by the master, or chapter. A Serf cannot commit suicide by choice, or choose to take a mate, or choose to eat when hungry, or go to the bathroom. They can only serve and die.

Or if you want to get all glorific, they can be dranken dry by space vampires, have their flesh cut off, and their bones placed in reverence. It's the oddest thing about the Dante book, that his personal Blood Thrall (A term literally meaning to be inslaved to something) has feelings for him, and they develop this weird "I love my master" friendship, which dante then ends rather horrifically, even though it beings this perverted "joy" to the character.

Nope, Astartes are slavers, pure and simple. Dress it up how you like, put whatever special words around it, they own slaves, and they use them as little more than house servants.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I would point to the chapter Serfs of the Angels Vermillion.

You do remember the second or third post in this thread where people said it would vary from Chapter to Chapter? For every bad example you find someone else can find a good one.

A slave is someone with not autonomy over their mind or body. The owner decides the fate of the slave, and how that fate will be carried out. Quibling the honor of a tital, or the class system is pointless. A Chapter Serf is not allowed to make decisions about their mind or body, unless given direct permission by the master, or chapter. A Serf cannot commit suicide by choice, or choose to take a mate, or choose to eat when hungry, or go to the bathroom. They can only serve and die.

Again, that depends on the Chapter. The Wolves have entire tribes set up for Kaerl (Serf) duty and they live exactly the same way as those tribes in the wilds of Fenris. The best are chosen for Kaerl service but still get to live with their families. Likewise the Salamanders themselves live amongst the tribes of Nocturne from which their Serfs are drawn. Before their homeworld was destroyed, the Scythes of the Emperor were very close to the mortals that lived there, they even had a a special council of mortal leaders who would help guide the Chapter in times of crisis. Hell, the Scythes Serfs had so much freedom that large portions became infested by the Genestealer curse when they mingled with the rest of the population.

Nope, Astartes are slavers, pure and simple. Dress it up how you like, put whatever special words around it, they own slaves, and they use them as little more than house servants.

Once again, we've done this bit where we've discussed how broad the definition of slavery is.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I would point to the chapter Serfs of the Angels Vermillion.

A slave is someone with not autonomy over their mind or body. The owner decides the fate of the slave, and how that fate will be carried out. Quibling the honor of a tital, or the class system is pointless. A Chapter Serf is not allowed to make decisions about their mind or body, unless given direct permission by the master, or chapter. A Serf cannot commit suicide by choice, or choose to take a mate, or choose to eat when hungry, or go to the bathroom. They can only serve and die.

Or if you want to get all glorific, they can be dranken dry by space vampires, have their flesh cut off, and their bones placed in reverence. It's the oddest thing about the Dante book, that his personal Blood Thrall (A term literally meaning to be inslaved to something) has feelings for him, and they develop this weird "I love my master" friendship, which dante then ends rather horrifically, even though it beings this perverted "joy" to the character.

Nope, Astartes are slavers, pure and simple. Dress it up how you like, put whatever special words around it, they own slaves, and they use them as little more than house servants.

reality, Fezzik, isn't so black and white. nuance is definatly a thing.

On the topic of marines being pretty much indentured themselves; even Custodes get to retire after a couple thousand years. Marines either die in service or die and stay in service for another few centuries.

Custodes can retire? Odd, you'd think the Emperor's bodyguards would be bound to him in perpetuity, especially when no new Custodes are being made. Or am I mistaken about that? Are Custodes still being produced?

They don't really retire, they get slow and become Eyes of the Emperor. These Custodes go out into the Imperium, building vast networks of spies and informants to find threats to the Imperium. They use clandestine channels to communicate with the Captain-General who then despatches forces to deal with said threats.

They are indeed still in production. For every dozen, or is it every few dozen, infants offered up to the programme (and were talking still in nappies here) approximately one Custodian gets made. No-one will explain why the attrition rate is so high but that’s another topic. Also I should correct that: they don’t resign from the Custodes; they retire to supernumerary positions elsewhere in the Imperial hierarchy and act as intelligence agents for the ones still in active service while doing other jobs. Basically they get benched when their reflexes dull to merely superhuman. Because even a retired Custodes is still biologically immortal and needs something to do with the next five thousand years of their life…

That actually sounds like a pretty high rate of production, considering the Imperium's population.

How many children do Space Marines go through to get their recruits?

The Custodes don't recruit as often as Astartes do but I'm not sure where the 1 in a dozen comes from.
Astartes recruitment depends on a lot of things, most importantly geneseed compatibility. The Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and Ultramarines all had geneseed that was highly adaptable. The Blood Angels especially could take highly mutated humans from the wastes of Terra and then Baal and turn them into semi-angelic beings. It's never explicitly stated exactly how many recruits each Chapter takes and how many pass because each Chapters trials are of varying degrees of lethality.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
That actually sounds like a pretty high rate of production, considering the Imperium's population.

How many children do Space Marines go through to get their recruits?

We don’t actually have much data but in Ragnar they lose one aspirant to a training accident and about thirty percent of a cohort of a few dozen to the final trials but then the Wolves have one of the most brutal conversion methods known. The Blood Angels on the other hand stick their frail, emaciated, rad-poisoned prospects in a magic coffin and set them on five minute defrost. I believe they have something like a 90% success rate.
Either way it’s definitely better than 100 to 1 and the Custodes only “recruit” firstborn sons of Terran adepts and that on a volunteer basis.

Fabius bile claims about 1 in 100 astartes aspirants succeed and that he 'works to lengthen those odds.

That about lines up with Sons Of Dorn, where three thunderhawks full of young aspirants produce 3 neophyte scouts. Note that's 1 battle brother from 100 humans who've had nothing more than a cursory auspex scan: most of them will never get close to an apothecarion for implants.


Custodes will have a higher rate of success because their... its not 'gene-seed'...but their implants are not only more sophisticated but apparently custom designed for each potential recruit who passes muster to maximise their potential.

In Dante, of 500 hopefuls, about half actually make it to Aspirant stage, of those, about 50 make it to the changing of the blood. Of those 50, about 20 actually survive. The blood gruel is chopped up failed aspirant.

I thought I read that customs are hame made through genetic engineering and that no 2 are the same.

back to the subject of serfs, where do they come from? are they a little community of humans that breed generations of users or do chapters go around acquiring them

Both. Most Chapters have a homeworld or recruiting worlds from which they take Aspirants, Serfs, and goods such as raw materials and foodstuffs.
The Wolves for example, given entire Fenrisian clans permission to reside in the area surrounding the Fang, where the clans agree to provide Kaerls and Aspirants while the Wolves provide protection.
For Chapters without a direct homeworld or who have lost recruiting worlds, it can be more difficult. The Carcharadons claim the right of the Red Tithe where the Chapter's 3rd Company chooses a world and takes its entire population as Serfs (in this case they are very much slaves) and Aspirants. The Chapter almost entirely operates in the far reaches of Imperial Space, so these worlds are often sparsely populated and their "loss" isn't noted as much as one closer to areas of control.

Using a slavery or oppressed force to provide labour and logistics to your military force has you forever watching, punishing, making examples and watching your back Not exactly ideal when you have chaos as an insidious enemy willing to exploit this weakness and for each chapter to such a small parcel of manpower. Constant exposure to dangers breeds contempt for them and you will work out ways of hitting your power armoured overlords where it hurts. Hell you look after their kit, sabotage it.

It was a stupid idea in history(slave rowers on war galleys were less useful than motivated and paid citizens. the biggest threat to Sparta at any time was their own hellot slave class and look at the paranoia and hate in southern USA during the slavery period) and in marine chapters that indulge in such nonsense no doubt it is an issue to them as well and no doubt have to commit manpower onto stupid stuff their system has caused.

Indoctrination works really well, have your serfs feel honoured for their duty and they will love every duty they fulfill for the chapter. Make them feel below you and honoured to be there and they will lovingly die for you without hesitation, except for perhaps a; "by your leave my lord, I shall take this next bolt round, be careful my lord, I fear I shall spatter your armour with blood."

People can feel honoured to work with someone every day. If you veiw your marine/company as a sacred defender of humanity it is part of your identity, I do not think they'd lose reverence.

Not to say you are wrong, but the balance of power between humans enslaving humans, and Astartes enslaving humans is much more in favour of the Astartes.
With human overseers the chances are that in a revolt a bunch of slaves will die but they have a good chance of overcoming the overseers.
Against Astartes they don't stand a chance. Even ingoring the transhuman dread factor, a revolt would have to get very lucky to wound an Astartes badly enough that the slaves could make gains and even then, he's one of potentially a hundred plus any slaves and serfs that stay "loyal". Combined with the high attrition rate we see with Chapters like the Carcharadons, the chances of a slave uprising against Astartes is rare.

Marines might be tough, but big enough bombs are still going to maim and kill them. And there's only 1000 marines in a chapter. Sabotaging their equipment and logistics will slow them down and cripple their capability. You'd need an enforcment caste to keep everyone in order and even then if there is trouble ir is drawing thought away from other areas. Any large scale deployment may result in issues rising again on the home front forcing marines to be spread thin on the ground on both fronts and this will amplify the results of sabotage and things like bombings on the home front. Especially if you know who to target(apothecaries).
I'd say the balance of power is evened out by the fact you'd have such tensions rise on large scale chapter deployments, and ~200 space marines to worry about should be pretty handleable especially if you have acsess to their armouries and stores.

The potential of damage is high and a chapter having the strength of only 1000 means they will not be able to take chances.

So a few things:

1 - The slaves would have to somehow organise a revolt without anyone finding out and convince literally every single slave to join them or the uprising would fail. As soon as one slave lets slip that something might happen, the Chaplain is down in the slave decks making examples of people with his big stick and gun.
2 - Slaves aren't going to have access to the armouries without supervision, they have to be with an Astartes. So unless they're storming a ships armoury with their entire compliment (once again with absolutely nobody noticing a massive movement cropping up amongst the slaves) which would get locked down as soon as their intentions became clear, and the few that did make it in would then have to kill all the Techmarines and Servitors present, at which point they're locked in a confined space that can be controlled by the Astartes externally. As well as this, the weapons in the armoury will be mostly useless as they are designed for use by Astartes and are often bio-locked to Astartes.
3 - If the slaves get lucky and somehow managed to take the armoury, they're then faced with the full complement of Astartes who are far better fighters, won't die easily and most importantly now have no reason for mercy. If a Company of Astartes can take a planet, what do you think they'll do to poorly armed slaves with nothing to stop their already dangerously violent tendencies?
4 - If the slaves managed to somehow by some insane metric beat a Company of Astartes (we're not doing a Chapter because that's just not happening) on their own turf, what do they do after? They can't operate much of the equipment because they don't know how. They can't access the food stores because the entire fortress/ship has been locked down since the uprising began. If someone finds out what they did, they're getting purged. It's a lose-lose scenario.

You're vastly overestimating human slaves fighting Space Marines chief.

A slave revolt alone is unlikely to do much, but this is 40k. Behind a slave revolt there is always a chance of Chaos or Xenos involvement, and that can outright kill an entire Space Marine Chapter.

That is an option but not one that was considered in this example.
This is very specifically dealing with just bog standard slaves, no Daemons, Spawn or Genestealers to be had.

Putting down this slave revolt I put a round in the geller generator now we're daemon chow? You also underestimate subtle sabotage, german shells were far more likely to misfire than allied for a reason and part of that was sabotage.

 Llamahead wrote:
Putting down this slave revolt I put a round in the geller generator now we're daemon chow?

That would be one of my points. If the slaves are on a ship, how are they going to get it to do anything? As soon as a revolt is launched all of the core systems will be locked with only the ship's Captain or Techmarine being able to override it.
Hell if all seems lost then the Astartes commander might just blow up the ship out of spite.
For any ship-based revolt to succeed the slaves would have to take the armoury, engineering deck, bridge, chapel, apothecarion, and weapons arrays all at the same time to have a chance at success. As soon as one of these is taken before the other, then it all gets locked down and the air gets taken away. Actually, they don't even need to go that far as the Astartes can just put helmets on and vent all the air anyway.

You also underestimate subtle sabotage, german shells were far more likely to misfire than allied for a reason and part of that was sabotage.

Space Marines don't need artillery to commit mass murder when they themselves are the weapon. A slave might be able to get lucky with a few firearms but personal CQC weapons or the Astartes armour? Not a chance.

The Gellar field option supposes two very obvious flaws. 1. The ship is in the warp and wouldn't immediately emergency translate back to real space.

And 2. That the demons wouldn't instantly kill the slaves first. Thats like saying if I got close enough with a melta charge strapped to my head, I could take down a ork. Even if you succeed in the attempt, you're still gonna be dead meat. There are countless stories of Single Marines taking out entire platoon (50 men) sized units of traitors. Hell, Abnett shows a single one taking out a pack of Dark Eldar with just a knife and a bolter. Think what 50 would do against a ragged mob of unarmed slaves. This is silly to even consider.

Only a fool would openly revolt. An insurgency would work well enough. Bombings with direct acsess to the marine's armouries and barracks, and you're expecyed to be lugging things around for them. You can target them when they are out of armour.
Abd my point is the threat of this is much larger than you'd appreciate as a marine chapter is such a small organisation, amd most the time its going to be split into smaller forces. You might only have 200 marines on the entire planet. Let that sink in.

Mind i am talking about the oppression of chapter serfs. The people who directly serve the chapter in its chapter house, on its ships or on the battlefield. These are exactly the people who could cripple a marine chapter and killing them, will also you guessed it... cripple the marine chapter!

You are making assumptions on top of assumptions. "Bombing the marine's armories"? WITH WHAT? What planes would slaves have that could evade Thunderhawk Gunships? Or are you talking like a clandestine bomb? Yeah, show me one instance in the fluff of a human lead revolt catching the Astartes "off their game". It doesn't happen. You can't expect a group of ragged slave dreggs to outsmart a bio engineered super being. That's like saying a Sister of Battle could possibly beat a Custodes Shield Captain in a feat of strength. IF the conditions were right.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
What planes would slaves have that could evade Thunderhawk Gunships?

The ones in the chapter armory? It's not like it's even a difficult task, the Thunderhawk is a slow and bulky transport that depends on close escort from true fighters to survive against enemy aircraft. Get behind it, put a few rounds into those exposed engines, and you've got a nice smoking crater full of marine corpses.

You can't expect a group of ragged slave dreggs to outsmart a bio engineered super being.

Why not? They're brutal, utterly lacking in any kind of conscience that would stand in the way of exterminating the enemies of the Imperium, durable against small arms fire, etc. And those things have value. But for all the talk of space marines being strategic geniuses the majority of their battle plans consist of little more than charging straight at a completely outmatched enemy and annihilating them with overwhelming force. They're a brute force terror weapon, nothing more.

Plus, it's not like you need a lot of finesse when the marines are at a massive numbers disadvantage. A guided missile doesn't care how smart the user is, it just locks onto its target and turns a marine into a corpse.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You are making assumptions on top of assumptions. "Bombing the marine's armories"? WITH WHAT? What planes would slaves have that could evade Thunderhawk Gunships? Or are you talking like a clandestine bomb? Yeah, show me one instance in the fluff of a human lead revolt catching the Astartes "off their game". It doesn't happen. You can't expect a group of ragged slave dreggs to outsmart a bio engineered super being. That's like saying a Sister of Battle could possibly beat a Custodes Shield Captain in a feat of strength. IF the conditions were right.

We are talking about chapter serfs man.
Chapter serfs clean and take care of the inside of chapter property and aid in logistics during combat operations.. By bombing i mean sneaking a bomb in with your mop trolley not flying over in an aircraft. By sabotage i mean screwing with some fuses when you have been told to load ammo so that the company's whilwind battery rains usless duds on that group of charging khorne bezerkers so that your line suddenly finds itself beset.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But my original point is that mitreating the people who keep you in your business and take care of most of what enables you to field your force is sorta a poor idea.

It was done historically of course. But always with a thick atmoshpere of mistrust and paranoia. Things that are not conductive to a well oiled machine.

 OldMate wrote:
Mind i am talking about the oppression of chapter serfs. The people who directly serve the chapter in its chapter house, on its ships or on the battlefield. These are exactly the people who could cripple a marine chapter and killing them, will also you guessed it... cripple the marine chapter!

Maybe you should have clarified that earlier.

 OldMate wrote:
Using a slavery or oppressed force to provide labour and logistics to your military force has you forever watching, punishing, making examples and watching your back Not exactly ideal when you have chaos as an insidious enemy willing to exploit this weakness and for each chapter to such a small parcel of manpower. Constant exposure to dangers breeds contempt for them and you will work out ways of hitting your power armoured overlords where it hurts. Hell you look after their kit, sabotage it.

It was a stupid idea in history(slave rowers on war galleys were less useful than motivated and paid citizens. the biggest threat to Sparta at any time was their own hellot slave class and look at the paranoia and hate in southern USA during the slavery period) and in marine chapters that indulge in such nonsense no doubt it is an issue to them as well and no doubt have to commit manpower onto stupid stuff their system has caused.

Indoctrination works really well, have your serfs feel honoured for their duty and they will love every duty they fulfill for the chapter. Make them feel below you and honoured to be there and they will lovingly die for you without hesitation, except for perhaps a; "by your leave my lord, I shall take this next bolt round, be careful my lord, I fear I shall spatter your armour with blood."

People can feel honoured to work with someone every day. If you veiw your marine/company as a sacred defender of humanity it is part of your identity, I do not think they'd lose reverence.

Thought that was clear as mud.

You brought up enslavement and I countered with how slavery under Astartes would be different from regular humans. I was being very specific with my language and only talking about slaves and not Serfs, you were not as clear.

Also "clear as mud" means it isn't clear at all.

The best example would have been the hellots and I should have left it at that.

as for clear as mud
I maybe conscious of my skill level when it comes to communicating.

I'm pretty sure they would also have undergone some rounds of psycho-indoctrination as part of being aspirants. Probably a few continued rounds after that as well, whilst the Imperium would love to be able to brainwash all of humanity, with the Astartes support staff it's a small enough number that you can be thorough.

You really have to back up the lens here. The average life of humans that don't die before they are 20 due to the millions of issues, eaten by xenos, or killed and broken down by xenos, the prospect of being made into a fricking SLAVE to the gods is a much better existence than the regular.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You really have to back up the lens here. The average life of humans that don't die before they are 20 due to the millions of issues, eaten by xenos, or killed and broken down by xenos, the prospect of being made into a fricking SLAVE to the gods is a much better existence than the regular.

This is a thing. The idea of mistreated serfs rising up against their astartes overlords to fight for revenge and/or freedom could make for a fun story/campaign. However, I feel like the number of chapters whose serf populations want to rebel is probably pretty low.

Based on limited examples, it seems like chapter serf cultures tend to cast service to the chapter in a positive light. So it seems that many serfs see serving the chapter as a positive way to spend their lives/a meaningful purpose. I wouldn't be surprised if this culture is cultivated by those outside the serf population, but that's beside the point. Serf populations not enamored with their masters might still be aware that they have relatively comfortable lives compared to some of the other hellholes in the imperium. And those whose serfdom is itself hellish would need to be pushed to the point that they're willing to risk or sacrifice their lives for the sake of a rebellion.

Basically, it's probably pretty cheap and easy to do the bare minimum for serf morale to keep them from actually rebelling. Give them a safe place to sleep, food that doesn't make them sick, and enough free time to make friends and find love, and they'll probably be significantly better off than the average hive worlder. Chapters are pretty well-funded. If your serfs are willing to rebel, you were probably hoping they'd rebel.

CadianSgtBob wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
What planes would slaves have that could evade Thunderhawk Gunships?

The ones in the chapter armory? It's not like it's even a difficult task, the Thunderhawk is a slow and bulky transport that depends on close escort from true fighters to survive against enemy aircraft. Get behind it, put a few rounds into those exposed engines, and you've got a nice smoking crater full of marine corpses.

Planes wouldn't be stored in an armory, they'd be stored in a vehicle bay (likely a hanger) but let's assume the chapter's slaves manage to steal a plane.. the only planes in that hanger would be Stormhawks, Stormtalons, Storm Ravens, and Thunderhawks. (and MAAAAYBE Xiphion interceptors if the chapter was lucky)



first of all the controls of those planes would be designed for a astartes, which may mean they're poorly laid out for the chapter serfs, secondly, they would be required to know how to fly the planes which seems... unlikely.

even if rebelling chapter slaves could steal fighters they'd be lucky not to pancake themselves in attempted take off

Aren't chapter serfs used as pilots though? I don't think the controls would be that different.

The whole thing about marine crews is problematic. I headcannon that marines fulfill these roles, (or else their units should be nerfed back to scion or guard skill level, not something I have ever seen represented), and the 1000 marines per chapter is infantry strength and does not include tank crews or pilots. But I do see chapter serfs as a great potential source of additional troops(like packing a few guard battalions that are suited to synergise and trained to fight alongside your marines) and of course, more importantly to fulfill all the logistics and maintenance that keeps the boys in armour in the field and kicking xeno/heretic/mutant ass .

Thats not headcanon, that's actually canon. 1000 Battlebrothers is the total strength of the Companies then there's the added strength of officers, specialists such as Chaplains and Apothecaries, pilots, Dreadnoughts and then non-Codex formations such as the Ultramarines Honour Company.
As for Serfs, they do accompany Astartes forces but are purely there in a support capacity and not a combat one (with the exception of Space Wolf Kaerls).

I expect other chapters would use their serfs as “home guard” too, if their throne worlds got attacked directly as often as Fenris does. Or indeed at all.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Aren't chapter serfs used as pilots though? I don't think the controls would be that different.

The fluff is all over the place there. Some have marine pilots, some have techmarine pilots, some have servitors and humans, others humans.

Also depends on the chapter, Blood Angels Serfs command space ships after all so they actually would have a good shot at killing their Space Marines Overlords.

Good thing Blood Angels are among those Chapters that treat their serfs not as slaves but as actual Battle Brothers so they have no reason to rebel.

Did someone literally just call a THGS a "bulky tansport"? So a well piloted THGS can and does threaten a Imperator Titan, and kill several Gargants in the Armageddon wars. Also, they are easily one of the most heavily armed vehicles in the entire Astartes line up. They can rival a LR for killing power. To call it a bulky transport is really missing the facts.

I think people in general are just underrepresenting Marines because they don't like them.

 OldMate wrote:
The whole thing about marine crews is problematic. I headcannon that marines fulfill these roles, (or else their units should be nerfed back to scion or guard skill level, not something I have ever seen represented), and the 1000 marines per chapter is infantry strength and does not include tank crews or pilots. But I do see chapter serfs as a great potential source of additional troops(like packing a few guard battalions that are suited to synergise and trained to fight alongside your marines) and of course, more importantly to fulfill all the logistics and maintenance that keeps the boys in armour in the field and kicking xeno/heretic/mutant ass .

Black Library does a decent job of justifying marine aircraft pilots. They frequently have the marines pulling off maneuvers that would explicitly incapacitate an unaugmented pilot. So it makes a fair bit of sense that the marines would want the option of performing those maneuvers during dog fights, when deploying troops, etc.

Marines crewing tanks always seemed like a harder sell to me. I know they're good shots and that their durability and endurance is useful even inside an armored vehicle, but it still seems like resources might be better spent using mortals to drive and shoot the tank while those battle brothers leverage their astartes advantages more directly.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Marines crewing tanks always seemed like a harder sell to me. I know they're good shots and that their durability and endurance is useful even inside an armored vehicle, but it still seems like resources might be better spent using mortals to drive and shoot the tank while those battle brothers leverage their astartes advantages more directly.

Iron Hands are both ends of the spectrum - some of their tank crews are literally wired into their vehicles, and then their rhinos are driven by servitors.

Astartes crews are just better. That being said they can also be those Astartes who aren't injured enough to be a Dreadnought but too injured for replacement limbs or other such "enhancements". Some might even take it as a good thing, such as the Iron Hands or other Chapters closely aligned with the Mechanicus.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Did someone literally just call a THGS a "bulky tansport"? So a well piloted THGS can and does threaten a Imperator Titan, and kill several Gargants in the Armageddon wars. Also, they are easily one of the most heavily armed vehicles in the entire Astartes line up. They can rival a LR for killing power. To call it a bulky transport is really missing the facts.

It is bulky, and it is a transport. It's fast though to be sure. It's got a lot of firepower too. . . But taking on an Imperator? That doesn't sound right at all. The Imperator has specific weaponry to deal with aerial threats, and a ridiculous amount of shielding.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 OldMate wrote:
The whole thing about marine crews is problematic. I headcannon that marines fulfill these roles, (or else their units should be nerfed back to scion or guard skill level, not something I have ever seen represented), and the 1000 marines per chapter is infantry strength and does not include tank crews or pilots. But I do see chapter serfs as a great potential source of additional troops(like packing a few guard battalions that are suited to synergise and trained to fight alongside your marines) and of course, more importantly to fulfill all the logistics and maintenance that keeps the boys in armour in the field and kicking xeno/heretic/mutant ass .

Black Library does a decent job of justifying marine aircraft pilots. They frequently have the marines pulling off maneuvers that would explicitly incapacitate an unaugmented pilot. So it makes a fair bit of sense that the marines would want the option of performing those maneuvers during dog fights, when deploying troops, etc.

Marines crewing tanks always seemed like a harder sell to me. I know they're good shots and that their durability and endurance is useful even inside an armored vehicle, but it still seems like resources might be better spent using mortals to drive and shoot the tank while those battle brothers leverage their astartes advantages more directly.

Indeed. Most modern aircraft are capable of pulling maneuvers that would straight up kill their pilots, so having pilots that can withstand higher G-forces would be very useful.

And I'm sure some marine chapter's use trusted serfs to crew their ground vehicles, like you say it makes sense. Heck, the same chapter might use a mix of battle brothers and serfs to drive their vehicles depending on the situation.

That said, I wouldn't nerf marine vehicle's to normal human WS/BS. Human's can get to normal marine WS and BS with training, and I am sure any chapter that uses their serfs to man their vehicles would train them thoroughly in their operation. I could see a family of serfs specifically training on a specific vehicle for generations.

 Insectum7 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Did someone literally just call a THGS a "bulky tansport"? So a well piloted THGS can and does threaten a Imperator Titan, and kill several Gargants in the Armageddon wars. Also, they are easily one of the most heavily armed vehicles in the entire Astartes line up. They can rival a LR for killing power. To call it a bulky transport is really missing the facts.

It is bulky, and it is a transport. It's fast though to be sure. It's got a lot of firepower too. . . But taking on an Imperator? That doesn't sound right at all. The Imperator has specific weaponry to deal with aerial threats, and a ridiculous amount of shielding.

It's a specific scene in Helsreach where the Imperator was either rearming or otherwise not engaged in combat, and had its shields powered down. At this point the TH probably has enough firepower to threaten it before the shields can get raised. IIRC, there were a few TH, as well, not just one.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Did someone literally just call a THGS a "bulky tansport"? So a well piloted THGS can and does threaten a Imperator Titan, and kill several Gargants in the Armageddon wars. Also, they are easily one of the most heavily armed vehicles in the entire Astartes line up. They can rival a LR for killing power. To call it a bulky transport is really missing the facts.

It is bulky, and it is a transport. It's fast though to be sure. It's got a lot of firepower too. . . But taking on an Imperator? That doesn't sound right at all. The Imperator has specific weaponry to deal with aerial threats, and a ridiculous amount of shielding.

It's a specific scene in Helsreach where the Imperator was either rearming or otherwise not engaged in combat, and had its shields powered down. At this point the TH probably has enough firepower to threaten it before the shields can get raised. IIRC, there were a few TH, as well, not just one.

Oh ok. Sure, a Thunderhawk can do some damage if the Imperator isn't firing back or has shields up. Fezzik was clearly overstating the THGS capabilities then. If my memory serves me, the Defense Laser on the Imperator would just swat a TH out of the sky, it's like an anti-air Volcano Cannon, basically.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Did someone literally just call a THGS a "bulky tansport"? So a well piloted THGS can and does threaten a Imperator Titan, and kill several Gargants in the Armageddon wars. Also, they are easily one of the most heavily armed vehicles in the entire Astartes line up. They can rival a LR for killing power. To call it a bulky transport is really missing the facts.

It is bulky, and it is a transport. It's fast though to be sure. It's got a lot of firepower too. . . But taking on an Imperator? That doesn't sound right at all. The Imperator has specific weaponry to deal with aerial threats, and a ridiculous amount of shielding.

It's a specific scene in Helsreach where the Imperator was either rearming or otherwise not engaged in combat, and had its shields powered down. At this point the TH probably has enough firepower to threaten it before the shields can get raised. IIRC, there were a few TH, as well, not just one.

Oh ok. Sure, a Thunderhawk can do some damage if the Imperator isn't firing back or has shields up. Fezzik was clearly overstating the THGS capabilities then. If my memory serves me, the Defense Laser on the Imperator would just swat a TH out of the sky, it's like an anti-air Volcano Cannon, basically.

My point was that thing has a HELL OF a lot of DAKKA to be discounting it like it's a flying Rhino. And yes, any titan would be screwed if even a Single Astartes Thunderhawk went ape and did a full mag dump into the cockpit of a titan.

Yes, the shields were down, but Grimaldus even says plainly. The titan's brain/crew/pilots would all die before he did.

Because he would kill them from the inside. Because he's in the titan. Take Grimaldus out of the Titan, have it be shields up and ready, and the TH's are toast.

No, because the quad array of Twin Heavy Bolters, the Turbo Laser Destructor/THCannon, and the Multiple Lascannons doing a point blank mag dump into the cockpit was him saying "I'm okay with dying, are you?"

I'm not even remotely saying a THGS is a match for a titan. I'm simply saying it's like calling a Landraider Crusader is a Razorback.

A single lasbolt can kill an Imperator, if the guy holding the lasgun is inside the cockpit.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
No, because the quad array of Twin Heavy Bolters, the Turbo Laser Destructor/THCannon, and the Multiple Lascannons doing a point blank mag dump into the cockpit was him saying "I'm okay with dying, are you?"

I'm not even remotely saying a THGS is a match for a titan. I'm simply saying it's like calling a Landraider Crusader is a Razorback.

It's about a flying Baneblade, sure. It's got guns and speed. You did kinda say it could be a match for a titan though . . .

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Did someone literally just call a THGS a "bulky tansport"? So a well piloted THGS can and does threaten a Imperator Titan, and kill several Gargants in the Armageddon wars.

Just pointing out that that's a stretch, to say the least.

A thunderhawk CAN take out a titan yes..

But I'd be betting on the titan.

A Shadow Sword was designed to kill titans, and it successfully does so in the lore/fluff. But I'd still take the titan in a straight-up fight.

Also depends on the Titan, there is a massive difference between taking on a Warhound and taking on an Imperator.

Well a thunderhawk gunship is not a lightning fighter or xiphos interceptor. Just because it can target a big bulky and slow ground target that does not have particularly good air defence systems does not mean it can last 30 seconds in a dogfight. Bulky is a relative term. Its slow and ponderous for a flyer but swift when compared to a ground vehicle. Especially when its something as ponderous as a frickin imperator or warlord class titan. Even with marine pilots being much superior i can imagine some chapters making use of chapter serf airwings to fill out the numbers.

Also something can be said for getting shot down when you're not expecting trouble. Its much easier for the other party as you are fly straight and level.


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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A Shadow Sword was designed to kill titans, and it successfully does so in the lore/fluff. But I'd still take the titan in a straight-up fight.

Most titan models have pretty piss poor air defence. A marauder bomber could do a low level pass and just pave it into the ground in a 1v1 fight. But why you would be running something as valuable as a titan without air cover and a few hydras following it around is beyond me.
They apparently tried that in the Tauros campaign and they lost a titan to a swift railgun and missile attack by tau aircraft. As the titan legion had only deployed 3 titans they then proceeded to withdraw.

A single titan vs a storm sword has enough chance of being ambushed and having a leg scorched off that you'd never risk it. Hence you have companies of guardsmen with chimeras and leman russes to run out ahead and ferret such a threat out.

Until the Stormtalon came out Thunderhawks were what Marines used as fighter craft, especially in void battles.

The Stormraven was for transporting small groups, then acting as a gunship. The Stormtalon is just a gunship and the Stormhawk is the closest thing 40k Marines have to a fighter without relying on relics from the Heresy which most Chapters don't have (AA is a load of bunk that has entire air wings of Heresy era aircraft for literally every Chapter but Marines don't really have much else).
The Xiphon, Stormeagle, and Fire Raptor all exist but in very small numbers. And just as a side point, Xiphon Interceptors can't really be operated by human pilots as its performance places too great a stress on the pilot, stress only Astartes can handle, and even then it was an immensely unpopular aircraft that was mothballed before the Heresy began.

I suspected the xiphon could not be operated by normal humans hence why i mentioned the ubiquitous lightning fighter.

Well fighting in the void is a bit different to in atmosphere. You get fighter variants of the marauder for void combat and that is a ponderous aircraft in atmosphere.

Performance in atmosphere I'd put it down to marines being able to pull off some serious manourvres and as in historical accounts: even some technically shocking aircraft in the right hands can do alright as long as they have the guns to knock the enemy out of the sky with.

The Finns really liked Brewster Buffalos and the Russians had a few aria Airocobra aces despite these aircraft being seen as complete pieces of junk in other theatres.
As with a kittyhawk i can imagine turning a thunderhawk into a dive you'd gain a lot of acceleration. Could probably take a bit of a beating as well.

The thing is that Lightnings aren't part of the Astartes armoury, not since the reformation into Chapters.
As for Thunderhawks, yeah void warfare is significantly different but even then until the introduction of the Stormtalon, it was the Thunderhawk that would perform the role of air superiority for Astartes. They aren't perfect for the role but with the independent tracking on the Heavy Bolters, Missiles, Lascannons, and primary weapon it means the Thunderhawk can engage multiple targets at once. It also has a machine spirit that is almost as powerful as the ones found in Reaver Titans.

Doesn't it also have a pilot that essentially hooks into it, ala Princeps of a titan? I swear I remember Grimaldus rips one out of his seat before a crash and saves him, but it kinda gaks up his mind.

Most advanced Imperial vehicles use a MIU interface, or at least are compatible if the pilot has one, to allow the pilot to use their mind to control the vehicle. It is very jarring to incorrectly disconnect from a MIU so brain damage is possible in such a situation.

It's probably a standard feature for vehicles to be at least compatible with MIUs, so if a pilot has that implant they can better use the vehicle, but it will have analog controls as well.

All Astartes plug into their vehicles to better control them and connect with the Machine Spirit. It also means they can forgo the usual Power Pack needed to run their armour as they can piggyback off the vehicles energy system instead.