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Also depends on the chapter, Blood Angels Serfs command space ships after all so they actually would have a good shot at killing their Space Marines Overlords.

Good thing Blood Angels are among those Chapters that treat their serfs not as slaves but as actual Battle Brothers so they have no reason to rebel.

Did someone literally just call a THGS a "bulky tansport"? So a well piloted THGS can and does threaten a Imperator Titan, and kill several Gargants in the Armageddon wars. Also, they are easily one of the most heavily armed vehicles in the entire Astartes line up. They can rival a LR for killing power. To call it a bulky transport is really missing the facts.

I think people in general are just underrepresenting Marines because they don't like them.

 OldMate wrote:
The whole thing about marine crews is problematic. I headcannon that marines fulfill these roles, (or else their units should be nerfed back to scion or guard skill level, not something I have ever seen represented), and the 1000 marines per chapter is infantry strength and does not include tank crews or pilots. But I do see chapter serfs as a great potential source of additional troops(like packing a few guard battalions that are suited to synergise and trained to fight alongside your marines) and of course, more importantly to fulfill all the logistics and maintenance that keeps the boys in armour in the field and kicking xeno/heretic/mutant ass .

Black Library does a decent job of justifying marine aircraft pilots. They frequently have the marines pulling off maneuvers that would explicitly incapacitate an unaugmented pilot. So it makes a fair bit of sense that the marines would want the option of performing those maneuvers during dog fights, when deploying troops, etc.

Marines crewing tanks always seemed like a harder sell to me. I know they're good shots and that their durability and endurance is useful even inside an armored vehicle, but it still seems like resources might be better spent using mortals to drive and shoot the tank while those battle brothers leverage their astartes advantages more directly.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Marines crewing tanks always seemed like a harder sell to me. I know they're good shots and that their durability and endurance is useful even inside an armored vehicle, but it still seems like resources might be better spent using mortals to drive and shoot the tank while those battle brothers leverage their astartes advantages more directly.

Iron Hands are both ends of the spectrum - some of their tank crews are literally wired into their vehicles, and then their rhinos are driven by servitors.

Astartes crews are just better. That being said they can also be those Astartes who aren't injured enough to be a Dreadnought but too injured for replacement limbs or other such "enhancements". Some might even take it as a good thing, such as the Iron Hands or other Chapters closely aligned with the Mechanicus.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Did someone literally just call a THGS a "bulky tansport"? So a well piloted THGS can and does threaten a Imperator Titan, and kill several Gargants in the Armageddon wars. Also, they are easily one of the most heavily armed vehicles in the entire Astartes line up. They can rival a LR for killing power. To call it a bulky transport is really missing the facts.

It is bulky, and it is a transport. It's fast though to be sure. It's got a lot of firepower too. . . But taking on an Imperator? That doesn't sound right at all. The Imperator has specific weaponry to deal with aerial threats, and a ridiculous amount of shielding.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 OldMate wrote:
The whole thing about marine crews is problematic. I headcannon that marines fulfill these roles, (or else their units should be nerfed back to scion or guard skill level, not something I have ever seen represented), and the 1000 marines per chapter is infantry strength and does not include tank crews or pilots. But I do see chapter serfs as a great potential source of additional troops(like packing a few guard battalions that are suited to synergise and trained to fight alongside your marines) and of course, more importantly to fulfill all the logistics and maintenance that keeps the boys in armour in the field and kicking xeno/heretic/mutant ass .

Black Library does a decent job of justifying marine aircraft pilots. They frequently have the marines pulling off maneuvers that would explicitly incapacitate an unaugmented pilot. So it makes a fair bit of sense that the marines would want the option of performing those maneuvers during dog fights, when deploying troops, etc.

Marines crewing tanks always seemed like a harder sell to me. I know they're good shots and that their durability and endurance is useful even inside an armored vehicle, but it still seems like resources might be better spent using mortals to drive and shoot the tank while those battle brothers leverage their astartes advantages more directly.

Indeed. Most modern aircraft are capable of pulling maneuvers that would straight up kill their pilots, so having pilots that can withstand higher G-forces would be very useful.

And I'm sure some marine chapter's use trusted serfs to crew their ground vehicles, like you say it makes sense. Heck, the same chapter might use a mix of battle brothers and serfs to drive their vehicles depending on the situation.

That said, I wouldn't nerf marine vehicle's to normal human WS/BS. Human's can get to normal marine WS and BS with training, and I am sure any chapter that uses their serfs to man their vehicles would train them thoroughly in their operation. I could see a family of serfs specifically training on a specific vehicle for generations.

 Insectum7 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Did someone literally just call a THGS a "bulky tansport"? So a well piloted THGS can and does threaten a Imperator Titan, and kill several Gargants in the Armageddon wars. Also, they are easily one of the most heavily armed vehicles in the entire Astartes line up. They can rival a LR for killing power. To call it a bulky transport is really missing the facts.

It is bulky, and it is a transport. It's fast though to be sure. It's got a lot of firepower too. . . But taking on an Imperator? That doesn't sound right at all. The Imperator has specific weaponry to deal with aerial threats, and a ridiculous amount of shielding.

It's a specific scene in Helsreach where the Imperator was either rearming or otherwise not engaged in combat, and had its shields powered down. At this point the TH probably has enough firepower to threaten it before the shields can get raised. IIRC, there were a few TH, as well, not just one.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Did someone literally just call a THGS a "bulky tansport"? So a well piloted THGS can and does threaten a Imperator Titan, and kill several Gargants in the Armageddon wars. Also, they are easily one of the most heavily armed vehicles in the entire Astartes line up. They can rival a LR for killing power. To call it a bulky transport is really missing the facts.

It is bulky, and it is a transport. It's fast though to be sure. It's got a lot of firepower too. . . But taking on an Imperator? That doesn't sound right at all. The Imperator has specific weaponry to deal with aerial threats, and a ridiculous amount of shielding.

It's a specific scene in Helsreach where the Imperator was either rearming or otherwise not engaged in combat, and had its shields powered down. At this point the TH probably has enough firepower to threaten it before the shields can get raised. IIRC, there were a few TH, as well, not just one.

Oh ok. Sure, a Thunderhawk can do some damage if the Imperator isn't firing back or has shields up. Fezzik was clearly overstating the THGS capabilities then. If my memory serves me, the Defense Laser on the Imperator would just swat a TH out of the sky, it's like an anti-air Volcano Cannon, basically.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Did someone literally just call a THGS a "bulky tansport"? So a well piloted THGS can and does threaten a Imperator Titan, and kill several Gargants in the Armageddon wars. Also, they are easily one of the most heavily armed vehicles in the entire Astartes line up. They can rival a LR for killing power. To call it a bulky transport is really missing the facts.

It is bulky, and it is a transport. It's fast though to be sure. It's got a lot of firepower too. . . But taking on an Imperator? That doesn't sound right at all. The Imperator has specific weaponry to deal with aerial threats, and a ridiculous amount of shielding.

It's a specific scene in Helsreach where the Imperator was either rearming or otherwise not engaged in combat, and had its shields powered down. At this point the TH probably has enough firepower to threaten it before the shields can get raised. IIRC, there were a few TH, as well, not just one.

Oh ok. Sure, a Thunderhawk can do some damage if the Imperator isn't firing back or has shields up. Fezzik was clearly overstating the THGS capabilities then. If my memory serves me, the Defense Laser on the Imperator would just swat a TH out of the sky, it's like an anti-air Volcano Cannon, basically.

My point was that thing has a HELL OF a lot of DAKKA to be discounting it like it's a flying Rhino. And yes, any titan would be screwed if even a Single Astartes Thunderhawk went ape and did a full mag dump into the cockpit of a titan.

Yes, the shields were down, but Grimaldus even says plainly. The titan's brain/crew/pilots would all die before he did.

Because he would kill them from the inside. Because he's in the titan. Take Grimaldus out of the Titan, have it be shields up and ready, and the TH's are toast.

No, because the quad array of Twin Heavy Bolters, the Turbo Laser Destructor/THCannon, and the Multiple Lascannons doing a point blank mag dump into the cockpit was him saying "I'm okay with dying, are you?"

I'm not even remotely saying a THGS is a match for a titan. I'm simply saying it's like calling a Landraider Crusader is a Razorback.

A single lasbolt can kill an Imperator, if the guy holding the lasgun is inside the cockpit.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
No, because the quad array of Twin Heavy Bolters, the Turbo Laser Destructor/THCannon, and the Multiple Lascannons doing a point blank mag dump into the cockpit was him saying "I'm okay with dying, are you?"

I'm not even remotely saying a THGS is a match for a titan. I'm simply saying it's like calling a Landraider Crusader is a Razorback.

It's about a flying Baneblade, sure. It's got guns and speed. You did kinda say it could be a match for a titan though . . .

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Did someone literally just call a THGS a "bulky tansport"? So a well piloted THGS can and does threaten a Imperator Titan, and kill several Gargants in the Armageddon wars.

Just pointing out that that's a stretch, to say the least.

A thunderhawk CAN take out a titan yes..

But I'd be betting on the titan.

A Shadow Sword was designed to kill titans, and it successfully does so in the lore/fluff. But I'd still take the titan in a straight-up fight.

Also depends on the Titan, there is a massive difference between taking on a Warhound and taking on an Imperator.

Well a thunderhawk gunship is not a lightning fighter or xiphos interceptor. Just because it can target a big bulky and slow ground target that does not have particularly good air defence systems does not mean it can last 30 seconds in a dogfight. Bulky is a relative term. Its slow and ponderous for a flyer but swift when compared to a ground vehicle. Especially when its something as ponderous as a frickin imperator or warlord class titan. Even with marine pilots being much superior i can imagine some chapters making use of chapter serf airwings to fill out the numbers.

Also something can be said for getting shot down when you're not expecting trouble. Its much easier for the other party as you are fly straight and level.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A Shadow Sword was designed to kill titans, and it successfully does so in the lore/fluff. But I'd still take the titan in a straight-up fight.

Most titan models have pretty piss poor air defence. A marauder bomber could do a low level pass and just pave it into the ground in a 1v1 fight. But why you would be running something as valuable as a titan without air cover and a few hydras following it around is beyond me.
They apparently tried that in the Tauros campaign and they lost a titan to a swift railgun and missile attack by tau aircraft. As the titan legion had only deployed 3 titans they then proceeded to withdraw.

A single titan vs a storm sword has enough chance of being ambushed and having a leg scorched off that you'd never risk it. Hence you have companies of guardsmen with chimeras and leman russes to run out ahead and ferret such a threat out.

Until the Stormtalon came out Thunderhawks were what Marines used as fighter craft, especially in void battles.

The Stormraven was for transporting small groups, then acting as a gunship. The Stormtalon is just a gunship and the Stormhawk is the closest thing 40k Marines have to a fighter without relying on relics from the Heresy which most Chapters don't have (AA is a load of bunk that has entire air wings of Heresy era aircraft for literally every Chapter but Marines don't really have much else).
The Xiphon, Stormeagle, and Fire Raptor all exist but in very small numbers. And just as a side point, Xiphon Interceptors can't really be operated by human pilots as its performance places too great a stress on the pilot, stress only Astartes can handle, and even then it was an immensely unpopular aircraft that was mothballed before the Heresy began.

I suspected the xiphon could not be operated by normal humans hence why i mentioned the ubiquitous lightning fighter.

Well fighting in the void is a bit different to in atmosphere. You get fighter variants of the marauder for void combat and that is a ponderous aircraft in atmosphere.

Performance in atmosphere I'd put it down to marines being able to pull off some serious manourvres and as in historical accounts: even some technically shocking aircraft in the right hands can do alright as long as they have the guns to knock the enemy out of the sky with.

The Finns really liked Brewster Buffalos and the Russians had a few aria Airocobra aces despite these aircraft being seen as complete pieces of junk in other theatres.
As with a kittyhawk i can imagine turning a thunderhawk into a dive you'd gain a lot of acceleration. Could probably take a bit of a beating as well.

The thing is that Lightnings aren't part of the Astartes armoury, not since the reformation into Chapters.
As for Thunderhawks, yeah void warfare is significantly different but even then until the introduction of the Stormtalon, it was the Thunderhawk that would perform the role of air superiority for Astartes. They aren't perfect for the role but with the independent tracking on the Heavy Bolters, Missiles, Lascannons, and primary weapon it means the Thunderhawk can engage multiple targets at once. It also has a machine spirit that is almost as powerful as the ones found in Reaver Titans.

Doesn't it also have a pilot that essentially hooks into it, ala Princeps of a titan? I swear I remember Grimaldus rips one out of his seat before a crash and saves him, but it kinda gaks up his mind.

Most advanced Imperial vehicles use a MIU interface, or at least are compatible if the pilot has one, to allow the pilot to use their mind to control the vehicle. It is very jarring to incorrectly disconnect from a MIU so brain damage is possible in such a situation.

It's probably a standard feature for vehicles to be at least compatible with MIUs, so if a pilot has that implant they can better use the vehicle, but it will have analog controls as well.

All Astartes plug into their vehicles to better control them and connect with the Machine Spirit. It also means they can forgo the usual Power Pack needed to run their armour as they can piggyback off the vehicles energy system instead.