once I realised you could get it all from other hobby web stores for about 20% cheaper I stopped using GW but as far as I am aware they still do quite a lot of business.

Who pay GW prices when you can get it cheaper?

I do, for new-release card packs, and the book they're for.
I've been stuffed by webstores too often to trust they'll deliver LE or semi-LE items.

I did for direct only, until I discovered Dark Sphere could do it at 10% off.

Unless it literally cannot be purchased elsewhere, never. It amazes me that people still do.

I do when I pre-order codices or limited stock items like the beastsnagga box.

In the case of codices I often want to play them on the day they are released, and since the brexit German resellers aren't able to get their deliveries on time anymore.
For limited stock, resellers are just too unreliable.

There's a selection of direct order models that used to be only sold by GW directly, which 3rd parties couldn't stock. It's shifted to now where they can stock them, they are just really poor on profits because GW doesn't give them much wriggle room to mark up from the wholesale price.

Sometimes the GW store has products that are only sold through their store or there are limited production runs where 3rd parties can quickly get swamped and where the GW store might hold more stock and thus is more reliable.

Sometimes, esp these days, the GW store might be the only place with a product in stock. The 3rd parties might have a lower price, but might just not have the stock to sell.



Also don't forget that the online store is only one avenue; there's also the physical highstreet stores too. A lot of people buy from them because its in-person and convenient and because they game at the store and thus feel a sense of loyalty toward supporting the store so that it sticks around. Same as what most do for 3rd parties as well, even if another 3rd party, online, offers a better price.

Plus some people are just ignorant of other options or very untrusting.




Personally most of my GW direct buys tend to be things like cast/print on demand; limited runs (eg books) and some boxed sets when they are limited (this is sometimes after the 3rd parties are swamped and stock is vanishing fast and webstores are erratic with working).
I've also supported my local when playing there; plus the birthday store events are pretty good each year if you've saved up a bunch of money. The free bag they gave away with purchases over a certain value a few years back has proven to be a really useful.

The closest to ordering from the GW webstore I do is from the kiosk at the back of my local GW and have it shipped to store. Mostly for preorders of new things. Yes, I pay full retail. But when done this way the store gets credit for the sale, which helps keep his lights on and the door open.

The closest FLGS that offers a discount is a 45 minute drive to get there. Been a while since I’ve been there. I also buy a lot of stuff from Amazon sellers. I can get decent discounts there, and can use gift cards/reward points. Unfortunately, what they have can be spotty at times, and there is often a lag for new releases.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Unless it literally cannot be purchased elsewhere, never. It amazes me that people still do.

More or less this, but my appetite extends to stuff that happens to be sold out at the time.

I now have a proper FLGS just down the road, so if I can source it from them, I will. Their discount isn’t the biggest I can get, but Support Your Local Plastic Crack Dealer.

Though I do need to find out if they can order in specific bits and bobs for me, as they don’t carry a large range of 40K and AoS. Skirmish and Boxed Games, yes. But not The Big Boys.

Only if it were limited edition, GW exclusive and I really want it - very rare.

I get everything from Element Games in the UK. Never failed me to-date and they offer a generous discount.

If it’s limited edition or made to order but other than that not really. I’ve done it before just for the click and collect but other than that it’s my FLGS or eBay.

I used to use the GW webstore for new releases and for items that were not on the shelf at my LGS because independent webstores are far too unreliable.

I stopped using GW's webstore entirely when GW themselves became too unreliable and their customer service became absolute gak.

Now I only buy from my LGS and the local Warhammer store because I can get quality customer service.

Seriously, I cannot stress it enough, GW's webstore customer service is such absolute trash it cannot be called customer service. Part of my job is customer service, I do technical training and classes that involve aspects of customer service and I'm not joking; I use GW as my example of the epitome of gak customer service.

I frequent my local warhammer store, and use it as a gaming space, so I like to put my money where at places which host games.

I don't typically order much online, except for the odd thing I can't get in store (like some bases, and webstore exclusive kits), or limited edition things like collections edition of codex.

I do get stuff from other physical stores in my area, but usually it's oop stuff you can't buy from gw direct.

I also like the free shipping to my local store, especially as shipping to my home address is unreliable.

 Overread wrote:

Also don't forget that the online store is only one avenue; there's also the physical highstreet stores too. A lot of people buy from them because its in-person and convenient and because they game at the store and thus feel a sense of loyalty toward supporting the store so that it sticks around.

This is the reason for me, there are no independent shops near me or places to play, only GW stores. I get a place to play and socialise and the manager of the nearest one gives great advice so I primarily buy from them. Also with free shipping to the store and quick turn around it can be that simply ordering anything not instore from their internal system is quicker and just as cheap (or only a quid of so difference) as ordering online.

Not to say I don't use online retailers, buying my nth box of troops that I don't need in a hurry I will shop around. It's just a balance between cost and having somewhere to actually enjoy the hobby.

Yes, primarily for the reason that I'm splitting my time between three different bits of the UK and hobby on the go and for all else they have been consistently *excellent* at getting stuff to me where I am at any given point so long as I order with a four day window of opportunity.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Unless it literally cannot be purchased elsewhere, never. It amazes me that people still do.

Same. That's their biggest profit margin, too.

My FLGS doesn't have discounts so I still try to buy from them, but eBay pulls pretty hard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oni wrote:

Now I only buy from my LGS and the local Warhammer store because I can get quality customer service.

Seriously, I cannot stress it enough, GW's webstore customer service is such absolute trash it cannot be called customer service. Part of my job is customer service, I do technical training and classes that involve aspects of customer service and I'm not joking; I use GW as my example of the epitome of gak customer service.

Err, well, it's been pretty universal that GW has awesome customer service so I'm not quite sure what you're on about there.

Books in german translation are not allowed to be discounted in germany, so they're items that are the same price everywhere, these I sometimes buy directly.

And made to order things.

And I once ordered directly when they gave you that special Space Marine with your order. That Space Marine became the challenge cup in our gaming group because nobody plays generic Space Marines

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Unless it literally cannot be purchased elsewhere, never. It amazes me that people still do.

Same. That's their biggest profit margin, too.

My FLGS doesn't have discounts so I still try to buy from them, but eBay pulls pretty hard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oni wrote:

Now I only buy from my LGS and the local Warhammer store because I can get quality customer service.

Seriously, I cannot stress it enough, GW's webstore customer service is such absolute trash it cannot be called customer service. Part of my job is customer service, I do technical training and classes that involve aspects of customer service and I'm not joking; I use GW as my example of the epitome of gak customer service.

Err, well, it's been pretty universal that GW has awesome customer service so I'm not quite sure what you're on about there.

I heard that, esp during the Kirby days, the overseas (from the UK) shop staff could be more on the "salesman" side than "hobby" side in terms of how they were hired and trained. So I'm aware that some overseas can be more pushy on sales and such; but in general GW's customer service is often one of the best. Certainly in the UK they are generally great at resolving things. About the only thing they will fall down on is dealing with finecast errors and that's mostly because when the mould gets an error it normally persists through a whole batch so replacements can wind up with the same (or worse) errors.

To say that they are one of the worst sounds highly abnormal compared to the general experience of GW customer service.

I do often get it directly through the webstore and their is one very good reason, shipping costs. The shipping costs were I live are terrible and getting free shipping from game stores in my country often requires buying 100 - 200 dollars or more at a time so if I am just buying a few things like a codex or a model since GW offers free shipping at 40 dollars it can actually be cheaper to get it directly from them.

Nope. GW customer service is trash.

I'm not talking about sales help. I'm specifically referring to support when there is a damaged / defective product or order issue.

Their support was good some time ago, in fact is was spectacular, but not anymore.

Now...

GW will refuse help unless you purchased the item directly from them. If you purchased through a LGS you must seek resolution through the LGS. This was not always the case.

If you purchased from GW's webstore you can only get help through their online customer support. A local, GW owned and operated Warhammer store is not allowed to help. This was not always the case.

If you purchased from a local, GW owned and operated Warhammer store, you can only get help from that specific store. The online support and/or a different GW owned and operated Warhammer store are not allowed to help. This was not always the case.

In all cases you MUST have proof of purchase. Lose your receipt and you're out of luck. This was not always the case.

GW's customer support line is only available Mon-Fri 6AM to 11AM Central time. That's 7AM-12PM Eastern, 5AM-10AM Mountain and 4AM to 9AM West coast. WTF!?!? This is the most inconvenient time slot I have ever encountered. They used to have normal business hours for each time zone.

GW closed their NA customer support office.

If you email GW support, you're lucky if you get a response within two weeks. My last issue where I was forced to go through GW's online support took nearly one whole year to get resolution. No joke, one whole fething year.

GW now has their support personnel determine for you if the product has an issue and is acceptable for replacement. Your input and satisfaction as the customer no longer matters. You think your damaged product is damaged; you're wrong if GW tells you you're wrong. This was not always the case. It used to be no-quibbles. Now, it's all the quibbles.

I have personally experienced ALL of this.

If I buy from my local Warhammer store and have an issue, my local guy is great, he tries, but that's just one guy and unfortunately even his hands are sometimes tied due to draconian corporate customer support policies.

So to say that GW has good or even acceptable customer support as a whole is living in the past.

Oh god no. I get everything for 30-40% off.

I only make SOME exception for an LGS who's been particularly good to me, which also sells for full GW price. But that's for them, not GW.

 oni wrote:
Nope. GW customer service is trash.

I'm not talking about sales help. I'm specifically referring to support when there is a damaged / defective product or order issue.

Their support was good some time ago, in fact is was spectacular, but not anymore.

Now...

GW will refuse help unless you purchased the item directly from them. If you purchased through a LGS you must seek resolution through the LGS. This was not always the case.

If you purchased from GW's webstore you can only get help through their online customer support. A local, GW owned and operated Warhammer store is not allowed to help. This was not always the case.

If you purchased from a local, GW owned and operated Warhammer store, you can only get help from that specific store. The online support and/or a different GW owned and operated Warhammer store are not allowed to help. This was not always the case.

In all cases you MUST have proof of purchase. Lose your receipt and you're out of luck. This was not always the case.

GW's customer support line is only available Mon-Fri 6AM to 11AM Central time. That's 7AM-12PM Eastern, 5AM-10AM Mountain and 4AM to 9AM West coast. WTF!?!? This is the most inconvenient time slot I have ever encountered. They used to have normal business hours for each time zone.

GW closed their NA customer support office.

GW now has their support personnel determine for you if the product has an issue and is acceptable for replacement. Your input and satisfaction as the customer no longer matters. This was not always the case. It used to be no-quibbles. Now, it's all the quibbles.

I have personally experienced ALL of this.

If I buy from my local Warhammer store and have an issue, my local guy is great, he tries, but that's just one guy and unfortunately even his hands are sometimes tied due to draconian corporate customer support policies.

So to say that GW has good or even acceptable customer support as a whole is living in the past.

Given the increase in 3D printing fidelity I can only expect that these changes would come and that the nobs taking advantage of the system would get pushed out. They're not particularly worrying changes. The only part that would need fixing is the staffed hours, but it's pretty difficult to staff something like that globally.

All of my GW purchases are from Wayland Games. 15%-20% discount and free P&P on orders of £20+.

Without such discount Games Workshop is far too expensive. They would lose me as a customer.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 oni wrote:
Nope. GW customer service is trash.

I'm not talking about sales help. I'm specifically referring to support when there is a damaged / defective product or order issue.

Their support was good some time ago, in fact is was spectacular, but not anymore.

Now...

GW will refuse help unless you purchased the item directly from them. If you purchased through a LGS you must seek resolution through the LGS. This was not always the case.

If you purchased from GW's webstore you can only get help through their online customer support. A local, GW owned and operated Warhammer store is not allowed to help. This was not always the case.

If you purchased from a local, GW owned and operated Warhammer store, you can only get help from that specific store. The online support and/or a different GW owned and operated Warhammer store are not allowed to help. This was not always the case.

In all cases you MUST have proof of purchase. Lose your receipt and you're out of luck. This was not always the case.

GW's customer support line is only available Mon-Fri 6AM to 11AM Central time. That's 7AM-12PM Eastern, 5AM-10AM Mountain and 4AM to 9AM West coast. WTF!?!? This is the most inconvenient time slot I have ever encountered. They used to have normal business hours for each time zone.

GW closed their NA customer support office.

GW now has their support personnel determine for you if the product has an issue and is acceptable for replacement. Your input and satisfaction as the customer no longer matters. This was not always the case. It used to be no-quibbles. Now, it's all the quibbles.

I have personally experienced ALL of this.

If I buy from my local Warhammer store and have an issue, my local guy is great, he tries, but that's just one guy and unfortunately even his hands are sometimes tied due to draconian corporate customer support policies.

So to say that GW has good or even acceptable customer support as a whole is living in the past.

Given the increase in 3D printing fidelity I can only expect that these changes would come and that the nobs taking advantage of the system would get pushed out. They're not particularly worrying changes. The only part that would need fixing is the staffed hours, but it's pretty difficult to staff something like that globally.

The proof of purchase is likely nothing to do with 3D printing.
It's mostly likely because of Ebay. People would buy a defective model, get a replacement from GW and then put the defective model on sale on ebay. Someone buys it and suddenly they too are requesting a replacement from GW for a defective product.

Rinse and repeat and the same defect is going around in circles.

So now GW requires you to provide proof of purchase. Which is honestly totally fair and what most other retail stores require.
The shift toward you having to deal direct with the store is likely because resellers are part of this. Ergo an innocent customer could buy a secondhand product from a reseller without realising that its resold. So they believe they've a first hand sale.

In reality all GW is doing there is enforcing common sales practice - the buyers contract is with the store not the manufacturer. GW was just willing in the past to deal direct as it was quicker. Now it seems that the USA at least (my last UK experience was ages ago and GW did require proof of purchase but would deal with a replacement for products bought from a 3rd party store); is enforcing the common practice. The customer deals with the store then the store deals with GW. This means that only stores that are trading with GW can get compensation, whilst GW can cut our resellers.

Sure maybe that would stand up if they weren't charging 5,000 yes five thousand percent cost. Look up some lawsuits yes 5,000 once again 5,000 percent mark up. If buying direct you are pay 5,000 percent. That's rediculas and the costermer service should be no questions asked and absolutely anything can be returned.

I buy the launch boxes direct from GW since they usually include limited edition goodies like tokens etc. I also buy direct if something is costed so low that the -20% discount one can get doesn't cover the expensive shipping costs (which can sometimes be close to 20€ alone!), or if every other shop at my disposal is out of stock.

Still waiting for Deimos Rhinos to show up at GW direct. @37€, it qualifies for free shipping from GW so buying it for 30€ from a -20% discounter but paying additional 18€ for shipping would make no sense whatsoever.

Proof of purchase is standard for any after sales support from most any company. Not a barrier in any way.

A casting defect on a spruce cannot be resolved by a retailer if they’ve no stock, and GW absolutely do replace stuff if you’ve raised it with retailer, have receipt and politely explain that you need their help as the manufacturer. First hand experience that they will help. No idea what other poster said to get no support, but polite persistence and demonstrating you’ve tried retailer first but they’re not appropriate resolution is all you need to do.

I can't remember the last thing I bought directly from GW at full price. I don't do that any more. Never pay full price and never spend your own money if that's an option you have.

Boosykes wrote:
Sure maybe that would stand up if they weren't charging 5,000 yes five thousand percent cost. Look up some lawsuits yes 5,000 once again 5,000 percent mark up. If buying direct you are pay 5,000 percent. That's rediculas and the costermer service should be no questions asked and absolutely anything can be returned.

The mark up has nothing to do with it.
There's nothing wrong with a company requesting proof of purchase when a customer reports a defect. In fact its bog standard normal. Heck many firms will require you to not only provide proof of purchase, but will also require you (at the company cost) to return the defective product when issuing a replacement. Or proof of destruction of the product.

GW doesn't do that, you keep the defective product and GW sends you a replacement.


Sure we had it good in the past, but GW are clearly a little wiser in the business sense when it comes to providing support and have taken sensible, standard practice approaches toward protecting themselves.

EBay is my go to place anymore.

 oni wrote:
Nope. GW customer service is trash.

I'm not talking about sales help. I'm specifically referring to support when there is a damaged / defective product or order issue.

I don't know what you are talking about. GW customer service has always been second to none.

They once lost an order for a Ltd. Edition book (one of the Blood Angel/Tyranid Campaign hardbacks) as well as everything else in that order, so gave me a GW voucher for the same value and sent me a replacement for everything in the order free of charge.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 oni wrote:
Nope. GW customer service is trash.

I'm not talking about sales help. I'm specifically referring to support when there is a damaged / defective product or order issue.

I don't know what you are talking about. GW customer service has always been second to none.

They once lost an order for a Ltd. Edition book (one of the Blood Angel/Tyranid Campaign hardbacks) as well as everything else in that order, so gave me a GW voucher for the same value and sent me a replacement for everything in the order free of charge.

They can be both. I got a FW model that was weeping resin and they forced me to go out and buy specific cleaners to try and remove the gunk before I could ask for an exchange. Even after I exhausted myself fulfilling their requests they told me several other things I needed to try. At this point I said screw it and just kept the model.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 oni wrote:
Nope. GW customer service is trash.

I'm not talking about sales help. I'm specifically referring to support when there is a damaged / defective product or order issue.

I don't know what you are talking about. GW customer service has always been second to none.

They once lost an order for a Ltd. Edition book (one of the Blood Angel/Tyranid Campaign hardbacks) as well as everything else in that order, so gave me a GW voucher for the same value and sent me a replacement for everything in the order free of charge.

They can be both. I got a FW model that was weeping resin and they forced me to go out and buy specific cleaners to try and remove the gunk before I could ask for an exchange. Even after I exhausted myself fulfilling their requests they told me several other things I needed to try. At this point I said screw it and just kept the model.

In fairness a lot of people don't realise that you do have to wash resin models before assembly and painting. Thing is part of customer service is working out if the problem is with the product and/or with the users use/expectations of the product. Sometimes this can be painful because the customer service staff have a list of common things they basically have to run through as part of their required problem solving steps. It's the same as how when your modem breaks you still have to go through the whole phase of "ok lets try restarting; is it plugged in; are there lights" etc... Because often as not a lot of situations it will be one of those common early steps that someone is skipping/messing up on or is not even aware of.



That said I've never really heard of cleaning resin with anything but warm water, standard soap and a worn toothbrush.

 Overread wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 oni wrote:
Nope. GW customer service is trash.

I'm not talking about sales help. I'm specifically referring to support when there is a damaged / defective product or order issue.

I don't know what you are talking about. GW customer service has always been second to none.

They once lost an order for a Ltd. Edition book (one of the Blood Angel/Tyranid Campaign hardbacks) as well as everything else in that order, so gave me a GW voucher for the same value and sent me a replacement for everything in the order free of charge.

They can be both. I got a FW model that was weeping resin and they forced me to go out and buy specific cleaners to try and remove the gunk before I could ask for an exchange. Even after I exhausted myself fulfilling their requests they told me several other things I needed to try. At this point I said screw it and just kept the model.

In fairness a lot of people don't realise that you do have to wash resin models before assembly and painting. Thing is part of customer service is working out if the problem is with the product and/or with the users use/expectations of the product. Sometimes this can be painful because the customer service staff have a list of common things they basically have to run through as part of their required problem solving steps. It's the same as how when your modem breaks you still have to go through the whole phase of "ok lets try restarting; is it plugged in; are there lights" etc... Because often as not a lot of situations it will be one of those common early steps that someone is skipping/messing up on or is not even aware of.



That said I've never really heard of cleaning resin with anything but warm water, standard soap and a worn toothbrush.

It had some sheen on it that wouldn’t come off, and they had me get some specialised soap meant to remove oil, but it didn’t help.

Forge World are a whole other kettle of fish.

I used to order from an online store, as well as ordering from a local game store, but the latter stopped carrying things at launch and the former always over estimated the number of products they would get and it resulted in a coin toss as to whether I got what I ordered or not. My last two orders were from GW's webstore directly.

 Vilgeir wrote:
I used to order from an online store, as well as ordering from a local game store, but the latter stopped carrying things at launch and the former always over estimated the number of products they would get and it resulted in a coin toss as to whether I got what I ordered or not. My last two orders were from GW's webstore directly.

That's because GW entirely undersupplies LGS's in the hopes of driving sales to them.

Typically the only things I'm ordering through their Websters are exclusives & made to order stuff that my local independents can't stock.

As to customer service? Excellent to date.
The worst so far in recent years was an order that had a missing item.
I got the tracking # & the usual shipping notification. A few hours later I received an email stating that they'd missed packing an item & to expect a 2nd tracking #/package. Oh, OK....
Before the end of the day I had the new tracking number and shipping email.
Both packages arrived right on time.

I never do, since I can order anything from a few online italian stores with a 25% discount, or a 10% discount if the item is webstore exclusive. So, I litterally have no reason to buy from the GW site.

But if I didn't get access to that 10% discount, I'd definitely do it. Most of the stuff I'm interested in are just webstore exclusives now.

 oni wrote:
GW will refuse help unless you purchased the item directly from them. If you purchased through a LGS you must seek resolution through the LGS. This was not always the case.

That is, AFAIK, how the UK law works for this. If GW is pushing that globally, that's their internal policy, and can probably be disputed with them.

On the topic of forgeworld customer service, I had a friend who ordered a FW leman russ turret (this was twenty years ago). He like how it looked on his leman russ but this left his other two russes with standard turrets. So he phoned up forge world and said the turret had not arrived. They sent him a replacement. When that arrived he phoned them up again and said the replacement never arrived and they sent him yet another one. Now all three russes has forgeworld turrets.

A friend of mine got an additional Smaug because the one he ordered had a small miscast on one part. So I have nothing bad to say about FW costumer service.

No, not from the GW website.
But either from the local store or with discount from fantasywelt.de

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Forge World are a whole other kettle of fish.

FW used to have top notch customer service, but it seems like too many positive stories emerged of messaging them about defects resulting in them sending a whole new kit and telling them to keep the flawed one got posted online. People started taking the micky with that to try and score a free kit alongside one with a relatively fixable issue (not that I in any way believe those kits needing fixing is justified if FW had any quality control) so they really cracked down on giving people the benefit of the doubt.

 Samsonov wrote:
On the topic of forgeworld customer service, I had a friend who ordered a FW leman russ turret (this was twenty years ago). He like how it looked on his leman russ but this left his other two russes with standard turrets. So he phoned up forge world and said the turret had not arrived. They sent him a replacement. When that arrived he phoned them up again and said the replacement never arrived and they sent him yet another one. Now all three russes has forgeworld turrets.

Your friend is a thief.

ccs wrote:

 Samsonov wrote:
On the topic of forgeworld customer service, I had a friend who ordered a FW leman russ turret (this was twenty years ago). He like how it looked on his leman russ but this left his other two russes with standard turrets. So he phoned up forge world and said the turret had not arrived. They sent him a replacement. When that arrived he phoned them up again and said the replacement never arrived and they sent him yet another one. Now all three russes has forgeworld turrets.

Your friend is a thief.

And its a good example of actions that, when done at a large enough scale, start to impact the company which makes the company take measures to protect itself.

Heck there's already enough people willing to buy recast models of GW/FW models; so we shouldn't be surprised that there are those willing to abuse the generous replacements system GW/FW has. Granted it is not every customer and I'd hope the majority are honest, but it only takes a few and those few will encourage others. So if GW doesn't take steps to prevent it or at least hinder it could establish a growing problem that one day becomes a serious issue on their bottom line.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 oni wrote:
Nope. GW customer service is trash.

I'm not talking about sales help. I'm specifically referring to support when there is a damaged / defective product or order issue.

I don't know what you are talking about. GW customer service has always been second to none.

They once lost an order for a Ltd. Edition book (one of the Blood Angel/Tyranid Campaign hardbacks) as well as everything else in that order, so gave me a GW voucher for the same value and sent me a replacement for everything in the order free of charge.

Yea. You're going way back to 7th edition with that one, so your experience is outdated and no longer applies.

It's a lot different now. A more current story regarding a LE book. My long time gaming friend bought the limited edition Custodes codex (8th edition). It came damaged. GW didn't have any more to replace it. They wanted him to ship the damaged book back, at his expense because it was opened, and once received they would issue a refund. That was the end of it, send it back, get a refund, done. He wasn't even able to take it to the local GW owned and operated Warhammer store and leave it with them, why, because it was a web order.

Todays GW customer service (if you can even call it that) = TRASH

 oni wrote:
You're going way back to 7th edition with that one, so your experience is outdated and no longer applies.

"Way back". 7th Ed was like 6 months ago. 12th edition came out as I was typing this message.

Every time something's gone wrong with a GW order they have bent over backwards trying to fix it for me.

Karol wrote:

lets not get another thread locked because it gets derailed with "piracy talk".

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 oni wrote:
You're going way back to 7th edition with that one, so your experience is outdated and no longer applies.

"Way back". 7th Ed was like 6 months ago. 12th edition came out as I was typing this message.

Every time something's gone wrong with a GW order they have bent over backwards trying to fix it for me.

I've been in this hobby since ~1994. I've bought a lot of stuff over the years and have had a lot of problems. More so than others it feels. There was a time when I would agree with you 100% and would have championed GW's customer service as being the absolute pinnacle.

But not anymore, not these days, not even close to acceptable let alone good. Their customer service has fallen, hard, from the ugly tree and managed to hit every branch on the way down.

And it's because I've experienced their customer service high point that I can identify their current low point.

My policy is simple, I tend to put my money in where I play. Sometimes that’s GW store and sometimes that’s a LGS. I’d rather put a little extra into the places of play to keep them open than just hunt the best deal.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 oni wrote:
You're going way back to 7th edition with that one, so your experience is outdated and no longer applies.

"Way back". 7th Ed was like 6 months ago. 12th edition came out as I was typing this message.

Every time something's gone wrong with a GW order they have bent over backwards trying to fix it for me.

Now you know what you're paying the horrendous Aussi tax for

As others have mentioned, I only order direct from GW for items that are direct-only. Otherwise I'd rather buy from where I play to support the location.

 oni wrote:
I've been in this hobby since ~1994.

Me too. And the only times I've had issues with GW customer service has been:

1. The one time they charged me $2.50 to send me a replacement Grey Knight arm bit (OG Grey Knights, in metal) despite the fact that I didn't need the replacement. They only thought they had forgot to send it to me.
2. Anything Forge World related.

 oni wrote:
Nope. GW customer service is trash.

I'm not talking about sales help. I'm specifically referring to support when there is a damaged / defective product or order issue.

10/10 times i get missing sprue. Regardless where i bought.

Random internet claim or own experience. Whom to believe. Real hard it is.

Heck i have had them replace my own screw up they had no obligation to replace for free. Offered to pay, refused as their system doesn't cope with such bits sale.

Is it possible that customer service in NA/the USA has dropped significantly in quality, but not in the rest of world (or at least in Australia and the UK)?

People are replying from all over the place.

The only change I’ve seen of late, but bear in mind I’ve not had cause to call on their customer service, is returns requiring the kit to still be sealed, and have an accompanying receipt unless you want to swap. And even then, I think the swap might’ve been more a favour from my former local store, as the Managed used to be my Boss.

FW usually require a photo of the broken piece, which is hardly a ballache to do.

I still buy direct from the online store if my local store or discount online store doesn't have what I want in stock, so probably every fortnight. As to the customer service that has been top grade since I started in the hobby way back in 1989 both GW and FW.

A good many other firms also require photos of breaks/damage. It's not only good for proving your case, but it can also have the bonus of:

1) Identifying where its not an error - eg someone reporting a mould line or a sprue gate as errors/problems.

2) Showing the next nature of the fault which means the production and packing staff can, if that fault repeats, be educated as ot the nature of the fault.
This can mean production might make changes to try and reduce the chance of the fault occurring and/or pickers can be more aware of common errors to watch out for when picking parts.

3) Might identify where a user has erred instead of the prat being broken in itself. Harder to spot and prove, but can be important for some firms (and at the very least even if they honour the request it means they can avoid noting that break/fail for the picker/production staff)




Heck a good many firms have little packing codes in the box too. Infinity models have two, one for the model bag and one for the boxed model. Supplying those codes can also help firms spot when someone on their team isn't pulling their weight or might need retraining/review. Or if there's a general problem with the whole team or a model that's just throwing more errors than normal etc..

I worked for a lot of companies that were relatively small to becoming giants, so I either know what happened or am just inserting my own experiences needlessly into GW... but:

Usually the first thing to fall in company growing pains is the customer service / support. As some said, GW customer service used to be amazing. A little too good with throwing out sprues and kits with little question. Now you're lucky if they just reply and are honest with YOU. One example they tried to tell me their shipping didn't have a tracking number. They honestly tried that. Then magically found it after 3 emails back and forth. And thats when you're lucky enough to have them answer you the first try. Not shoot an email. Wait a few days. No reply. Then email again.

GW is probably experiencing growing pains like most companies. It also explains their continuous disconnect with multiple departments when it comes to direction, messaging, etc.

I haven't had any issues with the actual support that I've received from GW, but I in part agree with oni because you can't call any support with months+ long response times (not even SLAs, there are no SLAs) "awesome". I get it, they're busy and the world is still crazy, but I can't fathom how they couldn't at least contract out a few more heads to answer emails.

And the other related kettle of fish is ship durations. It's exactly like the warp, sometimes it takes them a day to find the new product in the factory (I'm not even talking old kits), sometimes it takes them a month even if you preordered within an hour of the product going live on the website.

For what it is worth, I got some Steel Legion as they were going OOP last year. One of the boxes was missing the missile launcher loader, because I was picking through about 100 troopers it took me ~2 weeks to find it. By this point, the unit had gone OOP about 6 weeks prior and my kits must've been made-to-order.

Emailed GW as soon as I noticed, had an entire replacement squad shipped out in a week, for an OOP product.

This was in the UK. The posters dissatisfied with GWs customer service in this thread are mainly in the US so it may be a regional issue.

 Haighus wrote:

This was in the UK. The posters dissatisfied with GWs customer service in this thread are mainly in the US so it may be a regional issue.

Yeah, this is a fair point. I'd be curious if they run customer service for mainland Europe out of the UK also (I'd guess yes).

I buy from my local GW when it's convenient of something I can't justify spending the money on shipping.

Otherwise I get it from third party retailers where it's discounted or eBay/Bits sites if I'm after bits or singles minis from a box.

Tales of service woe, are they US specific or recent? Last time I bought from a GW store was because I had some vouchers, so went to the one in central London, got the DeathWatch vs Eldar box. Was missing the SM captain. Called up mail order, told them, they asked was I sure, I sent a picture of all the sprues in the box, they said no probs and sent me the missing captain.

I have encountered the other store issue. Got 2 boxes of AI when it was first released, one was missing its bases and had a miscast on one of the sprues (well actually each box had one error, but I just made it one complete and one incomplete box). Called them up, they told me I had to talk to Dark Sphere, but then Dark Sphere were straightforward in replacing the box for a new one.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Unless it literally cannot be purchased elsewhere, never. It amazes me that people still do.

On the VERY rare occasion extremely limited runs (collector's edition codexes) I buy direct. Otherwise, agreed.

I'm a big belvier in "pay where you play" and one of those locations is a GW store in town, so I do shop at GW and order from them.

I buy the odd token item at RRP when i pop into GW to have a chat, but to be honest the prices are so high I mainly order from third parties.
To me i don't understand anyone ordering anything from the webstore that could be bought elsewhere at 20% discount just as easily.

I'd say GW customer service in the UK was fine but its been a while.

In terms of sales though, I think its just based on people not knowing the alternatives exist. It took a while for me to discover say Dark Sphere - and then later Wayland and Element games were all out there, offering products at a substantial discount. Once you realise you can get stuff for 20-25% off the RRP its hard to look back.

I had one annoyance with Dark Sphere sending me some stuff - but it was during the first lockdown, when GW stock was in incredibly short supply seemingly all across the UK and everyone's logistics was a mess. Apart from that its usually been very quick and I've not had anything go missing.

I generally only buy from GW when there's no alternative or I'm passing the shop and need something like paint or brushes right there and then. I can't remember the last time I bought a model kit from GW.

GW really wants its customers to think they are the only place to get all your hobby supplies. It wasn't always this way. Back when I started they didn't sell craft knives and files and all the various other tools, or any terrain. They actively encouraged you to get those elsewhere. Now they want gamers to be able to get whatever they need at GW, but at a steep price. I think that's a losing battle. The internet makes it really easy to get what you need at a big discount. When I started gaming in the 90s it was difficult to find other hobby shops even in big cities.

Slipspace wrote:
I generally only buy from GW when there's no alternative or I'm passing the shop and need something like paint or brushes right there and then. I can't remember the last time I bought a model kit from GW.

GW really wants its customers to think they are the only place to get all your hobby supplies. It wasn't always this way. Back when I started they didn't sell craft knives and files and all the various other tools, or any terrain. They actively encouraged you to get those elsewhere. Now they want gamers to be able to get whatever they need at GW, but at a steep price. I think that's a losing battle. The internet makes it really easy to get what you need at a big discount. When I started gaming in the 90s it was difficult to find other hobby shops even in big cities.

I mean that's what pretty much any retailer does. If they don't sell X but you need X they encourage you to get it wherever you want. If they turn around and do start selling X then, yeah, they kind of want you to get X from them.

I can't blame them for that, that's just business. Any firm on the market will do the very same thing and any firm that is earning good profit to invest will look to expand their product range to give you more of what you need under their system.

 Overread wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
I generally only buy from GW when there's no alternative or I'm passing the shop and need something like paint or brushes right there and then. I can't remember the last time I bought a model kit from GW.

GW really wants its customers to think they are the only place to get all your hobby supplies. It wasn't always this way. Back when I started they didn't sell craft knives and files and all the various other tools, or any terrain. They actively encouraged you to get those elsewhere. Now they want gamers to be able to get whatever they need at GW, but at a steep price. I think that's a losing battle. The internet makes it really easy to get what you need at a big discount. When I started gaming in the 90s it was difficult to find other hobby shops even in big cities.

I mean that's what pretty much any retailer does. If they don't sell X but you need X they encourage you to get it wherever you want. If they turn around and do start selling X then, yeah, they kind of want you to get X from them.

I can't blame them for that, that's just business. Any firm on the market will do the very same thing and any firm that is earning good profit to invest will look to expand their product range to give you more of what you need under their system.

Sure, but most companies don't start selling a product identical to one you can get elsewhere at a 500% mark-up.

I order direct for fragile models for the customer service.

I once bought a miscast from 3rd party that was unnecessarily difficult to get a replacement for from GW (as seller indicated this is a manufacturing warranty issue, not seller's).

Another instance I had broken pieces in one of the warhammer underworlds boxed games (terrible packaging, btw) that I bought off amazon that I needed to process the exchange through the original seller as GW denied manufacturer's warranty (claimed it was seller's handling issue, not a manufacturing defect) as it does not extend to 3rd party sellers.

Slipspace wrote:

 Overread wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
I generally only buy from GW when there's no alternative or I'm passing the shop and need something like paint or brushes right there and then. I can't remember the last time I bought a model kit from GW.

GW really wants its customers to think they are the only place to get all your hobby supplies. It wasn't always this way. Back when I started they didn't sell craft knives and files and all the various other tools, or any terrain. They actively encouraged you to get those elsewhere. Now they want gamers to be able to get whatever they need at GW, but at a steep price. I think that's a losing battle. The internet makes it really easy to get what you need at a big discount. When I started gaming in the 90s it was difficult to find other hobby shops even in big cities.

I mean that's what pretty much any retailer does. If they don't sell X but you need X they encourage you to get it wherever you want. If they turn around and do start selling X then, yeah, they kind of want you to get X from them.

I can't blame them for that, that's just business. Any firm on the market will do the very same thing and any firm that is earning good profit to invest will look to expand their product range to give you more of what you need under their system.

Sure, but most companies don't start selling a product identical to one you can get elsewhere at a 500% mark-up.

I mean they do - just look at Apple and their £1000 screen stand.
Or how about a large percentage of the "paint pot holders" which you can often get as "nail polish holders" for vastly less.

There's always firms that mark up more and those that mark up less. I agree if you are buying tools GW is not the best place and their prices on things like clippers are darn cheeky at £20 or something last I checked. It's not where I'd advise something to go. However I don't blame GW for not advertising in their stores that you can get the same product cheaper elsewhere; and at the very least GW's tools are generally good to very good in quality (with a few random oddities here and there).

It's a bit like how GW used to do a lot of "how to make terrain" articles here and there and even "how to make a tank out of a can of deodorant"; however today they will more likely do an article on how to use hteir latest terrain kit or just buy a tank directly from them. I don't blame them for that either, their whole thing has to be to drive money toward themselves. That's just to be expected. Plus its not like the rest of the internet and market haven't picked up the slack. Within 5 mins you can find loads of articles and there's at least 2-3 other hobby magazines (excluding the model train ones) on the highstreet shelves for wargamers. So there's info out there pretty easily once someone has stepped passed the threshold.

Plus this all assumes that they only get advice from the GW store manager when they get into the hobby. There's loads of tips on forums, facebook and in clubs for those getting started.


So yeah I don't blame GW for advertising their stuff, there's plenty of counter marketing out there from the community itself and loads of good info.
Though I can blame them for overpricing on clippers

The thing with any game is, that if you start looking for channels, forums etc you are already in a minority. A ton of people don't even know that there are other companies paints for plastic or resin models, or that a hardware hand drill costs 1/10th of what people at a hobby store ask for etc.

Yes but now we are blaming the retailer for the slack jawed customer being unable to shop around. They are under no requirement to tell said individual they can shop elsewhere. Why would they?

I personally prefer to buy from my FLGS, usually its the same price or a slight discount and it allows them to keep their doors open so folks can play on the weekends without worrying about the store closing. I've seen plenty of stores close down over the years and its always a shame when its a good store with a good owner.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Yes but now we are blaming the retailer for the slack jawed customer being unable to shop around. They are under no requirement to tell said individual they can shop elsewhere. Why would they?

Nobody's blamed the customer. It's simply been pointed out that GW's business plan is to sell stuff at stupid mark-ups. I even noted in my response to a previous comment that this retail model is probably not as successful as it once was specifically due to customers becoming more savvy.

Slipspace wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Yes but now we are blaming the retailer for the slack jawed customer being unable to shop around. They are under no requirement to tell said individual they can shop elsewhere. Why would they?

Nobody's blamed the customer. It's simply been pointed out that GW's business plan is to sell stuff at stupid mark-ups. I even noted in my response to a previous comment that this retail model is probably not as successful as it once was specifically due to customers becoming more savvy.

GW sell branded tools on their shops so each shop is a one stop, erm….shop, for every new customer.

From basic tutorials to boxed sets to the tools, paints and glues via rules and terrain, anyone can walk into a GW store, and walk out with a grasp on the basics, and pretty much everything you need to get your hobby on. And all those bits and pieces are up to the task.

That’s….that’s it. That’s the entire theory. And it works. Yes you can absolutely get comparable tools and better tools, for cheaper, elsewhere. But you can also get tools which aren’t quite right (less sharp and fine pointed clippers for example). But why would GW actively point someone too those, or want to send someone somewhere else, when that cash could be going k their till?

It’s not some bizarre conspiracy. It’s pretty basic marketing. And, despite the higher price, it’s pretty good customer service, as they don’t have to run around town finding different bits and pieces necessary here and there.

Not sure if it is customer service I need to rant at, or just their webstore in general, but I am a bit annoyed with GW's service at present.

I placed an order online during the Black Library celebration to pick up Fafnir Rann, as nowhere local had any left when I went into town. I also added some Direct Only items I'd had my eye on, but didn't need immediately, including a Skyshield Landing Pad, and one of the M2O Eldar Warlocks.

Because Rann was also out of stock online - but had the "We'll get one to you eventually" promise in play - the order was listed as to be delivered within 180 days.

No big deal, I thought - aside from Rann, nothing was showing as out of stock, so it'll all come through in one box.

Fast forward from February to a couple of weeks back, and I get three automatically-generated emails from GW informing me I'm going to be refunded for two of the items from the order (the Landing Pad, and the Warlock) as they can't/won't supply them due to a "technical error". Oh, and when they've shipped the order, they're not even including the Black Library novella from the celebration, despite it qualifying for it when placed.

Now, I'll hold my hand up and say that, with hindsight, I should've split the order and had it delivered to store, rather than going for one box to my home to avoid paying or shipping, but I'm really not amused at them deciding that this approach is acceptable.

I do if someone gifts me an online voucher to use with GW.

mrFickle wrote:
once I realised you could get it all from other hobby web stores for about 20% cheaper I stopped using GW but as far as I am aware they still do quite a lot of business.

Who pay GW prices when you can get it cheaper?

Anyone who is starting the hobby and doesn't know they can get it cheaper yet. Bought many boxes from the GW shop when I was starting out.

Once I discovered the discounts it's only been for limited editions that are only sold through GW.

Not since we chose bits from printed catalogs and GW had real trolls digging those bits from bins.

Oops, tho i did try to spend a bit at the local GW when in Holland... i liked the guy (JayPee!!!) and contrast and sisters came out... dropped a few bills. But i was thinking only mail order, in the above post. So, ok... in such a situation, only.

Ugh. Trying to buy locally isn't working for crap. The local store has nothing (and is reluctant to place orders), and the store 45 minutes down the road (that discounts) has decided that after spending a couple thousand dollars and lots of time/effort to renovate a game room and put their GW stock in it (back in May), that they'd close it down and sublet the space. Moving their stock to their downtown location (a mess of traffic, snarls, no parking and one way roads). Which was also closed.

So after tearing down their game stock shelving, renovating a space, putting up more comics shelving, they're going to rebuild their old game stock shelving and move everything back where it was 9 months ago. But for the time being they're not going to have any of their game stuff in the more functional store. Genius!

I want to support local stores, but they always seem to have the business sense of a bunch of brainless ninnies.

Voss wrote:
I want to support local stores, but they always seem to have the business sense of a bunch of brainless ninnies.

That's because most game stores start because someone comes up with the clever idea to run a store to subsidize the costs of their hobby. They have no business skill or experience, they focus more on trying to be the cool friend to all the people they play with instead of how to make money, and once the initial loan money and their savings run out the store goes out of business. The rare few stores that succeed are the ones run by people who ruthlessly treat it as a business that just happens to sell games. And when those people look at stuff like GW's markup on tools the only thing they're thinking is if they can get away with adding another 25% markup on what GW charges.

 Shas'O Ky'husa wrote:

Voss wrote:
I want to support local stores, but they always seem to have the business sense of a bunch of brainless ninnies.

That's because most game stores start because someone comes up with the clever idea to run a store to subsidize the costs of their hobby. They have no business skill or experience, they focus more on trying to be the cool friend to all the people they play with instead of how to make money, and once the initial loan money and their savings run out the store goes out of business. The rare few stores that succeed are the ones run by people who ruthlessly treat it as a business that just happens to sell games. And when those people look at stuff like GW's markup on tools the only thing they're thinking is if they can get away with adding another 25% markup on what GW charges.

Nah, the stores that succeed are the ones that diversify, you can't survive selling only 40k/mtg/boardgames/comics, you gotta sell all of them

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Nah, the stores that succeed are the ones that diversify, you can't survive selling only 40k/mtg/boardgames/comics, you gotta sell all of them

And offer gaming space, and food & drink, and...

beast_gts wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Nah, the stores that succeed are the ones that diversify, you can't survive selling only 40k/mtg/boardgames/comics, you gotta sell all of them

And offer gaming space, and food & drink, and...

food and drinks help but i have a few LGS that don't offer them and have been going for 20+ years
(they do have snacks and some canned drinks tho)

I think today food and drink is almost a must. Not only is it letting you diversify your income, but it also helps keep people IN the club. They come, they eat, drink, socialise, play games etc....

Food and drink are one of the few retail outlets on the highstreet that appear to survive. Even if its a 3rd party doing all the catering and thus perhaps only sharing site rent and such; its at least increasing the chances of you getting people to play and part with cash and building a loyal community up.

 Overread wrote:
I think today food and drink is almost a must. Not only is it letting you diversify your income, but it also helps keep people IN the club. They come, they eat, drink, socialise, play games etc....

Food and drink are one of the few retail outlets on the highstreet that appear to survive. Even if its a 3rd party doing all the catering and thus perhaps only sharing site rent and such; its at least increasing the chances of you getting people to play and part with cash and building a loyal community up.

Especially if you're a new store, you need a way to build up the community

Long-term stores usually already built that community or became a known name in the city theyre in so they can kinda deal with not offering food and drinks (talking about a café style)

Plus if you've got kids coming to game days and such, having a food outlet can be something for parents to go too and have a coffee and chat with other parents whilst waiting for their kids.

It is something missing from Official GW stores. I'd get more hobby/gaming done if GW did a tie up with Costa and my family could go get a coffee while I was in there.

Trouble with that is Smelly Teenagers will also want Coffee.

Then you have Smelly Teenagers On Coffee clogging up your store.

Plus at least in the U.K., you’d need a food license, constant inspections, elf’n’safety etc etc.

Even if you did that? You’re giving up floor space in already typically quite dinky shops to sell a product not already under served on the high street.

GW stores are by and large profitable. They've the bonus of most of them being long term in their regions so they've had time in the 80-90s period to build up fanbases that have managed to last. The one-staffer approach also seems to have paid out for GW in keeping their stores profitable - 92% in the last shareholders meeting and that's pretty darn impressive after 2 years of corona

I think if GW did it they'd be pairing up with another established chain food/coffee brand and pairing up. The idea being that two in one would afford a larger floorspace instead of both trying to share small GW stores.



But its harsh, I've seen GW go from 3-4 staffers in a fairly open space in the main highstreet to 1 in a fairly cramped store that's in the secondary highstreet

I do wonder if part of that was a kind of mass “coming of age”, whereby the kids and Young Ad-Ults* who filled my Veteran’s Nights in the early 2000’s were now old enough, smart enough and organised enough to set up their own clubs, or even have homes with space for gaming in.

I would not be at all surprised if an analysis of whatever sales data GW has showed a decent part of their uptick are now parents of young kids rediscovering GW through their kids getting into it for the first time.

Trust me. That sort of parent is easy to sell to, as they already have typically fond memories of their own days, but this time tend to have the money to enjoy it.

mrFickle wrote:
once I realised you could get it all from other hobby web stores for about 20% cheaper I stopped using GW but as far as I am aware they still do quite a lot of business.

Who pay GW prices when you can get it cheaper?

I do occasionally depending on what my local stores are unable to get, or do not have sitting on the shelf. I make enough money that I don't really worry about saving 20$ on a model kit. Fast shipping and good customer service if anything goes wrong makes it worth it to me when I need it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Plus at least in the U.K., you’d need a food license, constant inspections, elf’n’safety etc etc.

Same in the US. You can sell pre-packaged food (candy, chips, etc) without all the paperwork but once you get into actual food you've got all the regulatory stuff to deal with. It's a lot of work to deal with and if you aren't going for a proper high-end restaurant + game shop hybrid you aren't going to come out ahead. Trying to sell cheap sandwiches or something is going to add a lot of extra cost and effort for pretty small margins and half your customers are going to go next door to get some food anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
GW stores are by and large profitable.

I'm not sure that's the best metric to evaluate them on. If a store is making $1 million/year profit it's technically profitable but it's a relative loss if GW could be making $2 million/year profit by closing the store, getting the rent/salaries/etc off the books, and selling the same products through an independent store. In an era when GW has ruthlessly cut back on quality in favor of cost reduction I suspect that by independent store standards quite a few of their locations are underperforming at best.

Thing is only a GW store only sells GW products. A 3rd party will sell other products and honestly many/most are much more likely to push card games over wargames.

Magic the Gathering, Yugio and similar games might cost less per unit, but they generate way more profit compared to wargames. Plus cardgames take up very little shelf space and even play space is less than a wargame.


Finally even if they focus on wargames, they've got competing brands to consider and the fact that people don't even have to use GW models in their army.



So for GW it would likely work shorterm, but medium to long term it would be losing them custom. If anything GW operates the other way around. Wait for a 3rd party to be doing well then use that as a metric to open their own store in that region.

 Overread wrote:
Thing is only a GW store only sells GW products. A 3rd party will sell other products and honestly many/most are much more likely to push card games over wargames.

Magic the Gathering, Yugio and similar games might cost less per unit, but they generate way more profit compared to wargames. Plus cardgames take up very little shelf space and even play space is less than a wargame.


Finally even if they focus on wargames, they've got competing brands to consider and the fact that people don't even have to use GW models in their army.



So for GW it would likely work shorterm, but medium to long term it would be losing them custom. If anything GW operates the other way around. Wait for a 3rd party to be doing well then use that as a metric to open their own store in that region.

Maybe this is a US vs.UK thing but in the US there's an immense difference in store quality between GW stores and independent stores. The GW stores are tiny closets in the back corner of whatever strip mall has the cheapest rent (the closest one to me isn't even visible from the road). They have 1-2 tables at most, limited inventory, extremely limited hours, and have to shut down and send everyone out of the store any time the employee needs to step away for a moment. Meanwhile there are multiple independent stores that have a dozen or more tables, are open much longer hours and give you enough time to get in a game after work, a wide range of non-GW products, and enough employees that someone needing a bathroom break doesn't mean having to pause your game and leave the store. If you have a successful independent store in your area there's no reason to even consider going to a GW store unless you're a victim of the cult of officialness and I've never seen a GW store with anywhere near the traffic or sales volume of a decent independent store.

Actually that sounds like GW stores here for the most part too.
Not quite in the cheapest areas, but not the prime locations any more.



Thing is the GW store has the issue that it can only shift GW product. So its potential profit avenues are limited. On the flipside it only sells GW product, it only pushes GW product and the shop, as long as its profitable, will generate income and new gamers for GW.

The 3rd party when a new person steps in the door "might" start Warhammer. Or they might start Infinity or Dystopian Wars or Magic the Gathering. The staff might push certain games because they generate higher profit; or instead of pushing Warhammer through Killteam for someone on budget they push them toward Malifaux or Infinity.


That's the key difference, the GW store recruits for wargames and for GW brand wargames only. For GW that's worth having their own stores and their own trained staff (from what I gather US staff were very different to UK in hiring policy and practice - at least under the Kirby days they were much more salesmen pushy for the sale; whilst in the UK they are often much more about the hobby - which includes nudging things for sales but without being so pushy and one dimensional)

 Overread wrote:
The 3rd party when a new person steps in the door "might" start Warhammer. Or they might start Infinity or Dystopian Wars or Magic the Gathering. The staff might push certain games because they generate higher profit; or instead of pushing Warhammer through Killteam for someone on budget they push them toward Malifaux or Infinity.

But the reverse is also true: someone who steps in the door to play MTG may see a 40k game in progress and decide to start a new hobby. Someone who stops in because their partner wants to pick up a new board game may impulse buy another 40k model while they're in the store. Someone in the Dystopian Wars group may decide to also come out on 40k night because the rest of the group plays both games. Etc. In a healthy independent store that's a ton of traffic that has the opportunity to buy some GW stuff.

Contrast that with a GW store, where GW is the only draw. And because it's in the forgotten back corner of a random strip mall new customer traffic is effectively zero, the only people who even know the store exists are current GW customers and the friends they are actively recruiting. Even in the unlikely event that someone happens to see the store and decide to check it out they've got a 50/50 chance of the store being open, and if the store is closed they probably aren't coming back. And once you're in the store gaming space is almost nonexistent, prices are higher than any other store in the area, and the only thing you can buy is GW stuff (most of which isn't even in stock and has to be ordered through the online store). So now not only are you getting no traffic that isn't already a GW customer most of the GW customers are going to be buying their stuff from other stores. I remember being in a GW store one time during the peak of Christmas shopping season and one person, IIRC the parent or spouse of one of the regular players at the store, bought anything during an entire all-day Apocalypse game. And IIRC that person was the only non-player to even walk through the door that day.

In short: GW stores made a lot of sense when they were in high-traffic mall locations and could draw in new customers. Now they're little more than a private clubhouse for a handful of existing customers and they only survive by aggressive cost cutting. Profit may be non-zero but opportunity cost isn't.

Of course, I'm not saying that 3rd parties won't sell GW stuff. Just that if you're manager of GW itself then the best way to ensure your staff are selling your product and that your product is sold is to have your own staff and your own shops selling your products.

3rd party wargames rely heavily on their community rep systems to help promote their games at the local level. Just look how far Warmachine fell - from 2nd place to Warhammer to almost nothing - and part of that (not all) was down to losing their entire Press Ganger system.




I do agree also that GW stores worked better when they were in higher traffic areas with more staff etc.... I don't think anyone could disagree with that. Where they are now is more a result of the fact that rent and rates for highstreet locations have kept going up and up and up and priced a lot of retail out of the highstreet.

UK GW locations are still usually in town centres and generally a short walk from the main high street. They are still in pretty high traffic locations.

I don't think I have ever seen a GW in a retail park (I think that is the equivalent of a strip mall here). You typically only see very large stores in retail parks.

The dynamic is definitely different.

The UK GW store strategy does seem to be different compared to the rest of the world and especially the US. UK stores tend to be in fairly prominent locations close to town/city centres. This means that GW has pretty good brand recognition in the UK as anyone close to a city or large town has likely walked past a store pretty frequently. The Edinburgh store used to be on the High Street, for example, but is now in a location just off Princes Street, which is the main shopping area in the city. If you're a 14-year old kid from Edinburgh or the surrounding towns, it's almost 100% certain you've walked past the local GW multiple times. GW almost certainly treat their stores as part retail, part marketing.

They get a decent amount of passing trade due to location. It's also often the case in the UK that FLGS are the ones that are more out of the way, especially the ones with significant gaming space, because those types of locations are much rarer here. Taking Edinburgh as an example, we have a handful of FLGS but only one store with enough space to run multiple games of 40k (and I think that's either closed recently or on the verge of closing). Other cities like Glasgow or Aberdeen are similar.

I think the UK differs from the US in how gaming groups are organised as well. We tend to have clubs that are often not affiliated with a store, due to many stores lacking enough space. Many UK gaming clubs are in community centres, schools or other spaces that are available to rent on a weekly basis. That means FLGS can survive without offering playing space, which broadens the number of available locations.

Slipspace wrote:
The UK GW store strategy does seem to be different compared to the rest of the world and especially the US. UK stores tend to be in fairly prominent locations close to town/city centres. This means that GW has pretty good brand recognition in the UK as anyone close to a city or large town has likely walked past a store pretty frequently. The Edinburgh store used to be on the High Street, for example, but is now in a location just off Princes Street, which is the main shopping area in the city. If you're a 14-year old kid from Edinburgh or the surrounding towns, it's almost 100% certain you've walked past the local GW multiple times. GW almost certainly treat their stores as part retail, part marketing.

They get a decent amount of passing trade due to location. It's also often the case in the UK that FLGS are the ones that are more out of the way, especially the ones with significant gaming space, because those types of locations are much rarer here. Taking Edinburgh as an example, we have a handful of FLGS but only one store with enough space to run multiple games of 40k (and I think that's either closed recently or on the verge of closing). Other cities like Glasgow or Aberdeen are similar.

I think the UK differs from the US in how gaming groups are organised as well. We tend to have clubs that are often not affiliated with a store, due to many stores lacking enough space. Many UK gaming clubs are in community centres, schools or other spaces that are available to rent on a weekly basis. That means FLGS can survive without offering playing space, which broadens the number of available locations.

For the US at least, it is probably a feature of car dependency that retail in general relies on drivable locations in most of the country.

The UK is much denser and more compact, so many people do not drive into town centres and they are far more walkable. Large stores are also more expensive due to the constricted space.

I'd be interested to see if mainland Europe is more similar to the UK or US. I'd expect it to be more like the UK due to a similar or lower level of car dependency.

 Shas'O Ky'husa wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Plus at least in the U.K., you’d need a food license, constant inspections, elf’n’safety etc etc.

Same in the US. You can sell pre-packaged food (candy, chips, etc) without all the paperwork but once you get into actual food you've got all the regulatory stuff to deal with. It's a lot of work to deal with and if you aren't going for a proper high-end restaurant + game shop hybrid you aren't going to come out ahead. Trying to sell cheap sandwiches or something is going to add a lot of extra cost and effort for pretty small margins and half your customers are going to go next door to get some food a

Agree. Virtually every FLGS I've ever encountered over the past 35 years here in the US is situated such that if you can get to the shop, then you can get to the local fast foods.
Two of the ones I currently frequent? All you have to do is walk 3 doors down & you're at a bar&grill/restaurant. Within a few minutes walk/drive? Numerous other options.
The worst situated was about a 15 minute round trip to the nearest McDonald's.... but I assure you that if you could get to that shop you could get to the McDonald's.
So yeah. Leave the cost & hassle of serving actual food to restaurants.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Trouble with that is Smelly Teenagers will also want Coffee.

Then you have Smelly Teenagers On Coffee clogging up your store.

Plus at least in the U.K., you’d need a food license, constant inspections, elf’n’safety etc etc.

Even if you did that? You’re giving up floor space in already typically quite dinky shops to sell a product not already under served on the high street.

oh right, the UK and NA arent the same environment.

Obviously here in NA where space isnt an issue, double dipping makes for a very interesting environment.

My local game store is right next to a church rather than food, due to the cheapness of the building. Don't have a Games Workshop proper, and this guy runs the only tabletop focused store that didn't go out of business during covid in my area. You don't get discounts, but the guy is cool, and the guy that works on saturdays is cool too.

About customer service, having worked in a customer service job that was way less forgiving to customers than Games Workshop (a mortgage company), when I received the wrong model, I offered to send it back, sent proof of purchase, and got a response that they'd be sending me a replacement model, and I could keep the one I got by accident. It was plague father something. Just gave it to a friend. But my one and only experience was a good one.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Trouble with that is Smelly Teenagers will also want Coffee.

Then you have Smelly Teenagers On Coffee clogging up your store.

Plus at least in the U.K., you’d need a food license, constant inspections, elf’n’safety etc etc.

Even if you did that? You’re giving up floor space in already typically quite dinky shops to sell a product not already under served on the high street.

Yeah that was why I went with a tie up with Costa (other cafe brands a re available) rather than GW doing to food side. The book shops with an abundance of floor space made this work to keep them around longer then expected. GW stores are small so putting one it in the current stores are a no go but using a tie up to secure a large space is also not unheard of and can bring relative costs for both sides down.

To be fair it would be pretty situational but in some locations I do think could drive more footfall.

 Overread wrote:
Thing is only a GW store only sells GW products. A 3rd party will sell other products and honestly many/most are much more likely to push card games over wargames.

Magic the Gathering, Yugio and similar games might cost less per unit, but they generate way more profit compared to wargames. Plus cardgames take up very little shelf space and even play space is less than a wargame.


Finally even if they focus on wargames, they've got competing brands to consider and the fact that people don't even have to use GW models in their army.



So for GW it would likely work shorterm, but medium to long term it would be losing them custom. If anything GW operates the other way around. Wait for a 3rd party to be doing well then use that as a metric to open their own store in that region.

Did you know that WoTC has recently sold 80$ USD Collector Boosters? I've seen people open them and get 200$ worth of cards. I've seen a LOT of people open them and get 4$ worth of cards. So the old "Warhammer is expensive" trope is something I typically ignore these days.

A note on the card games and space. I don't think that's 100% accurate to say they take up less space. I've seen collections of magic, pokemon and yugioh that dwarf whole army collections in scope, scale and size. It's truly insane.

 Togusa wrote:

Did you know that WoTC has recently sold 80$ USD Collector Boosters? I've seen people open them and get 200$ worth of cards. I've seen a LOT of people open them and get 4$ worth of cards. So the old "Warhammer is expensive" trope is something I typically ignore these days.

A note on the card games and space. I don't think that's 100% accurate to say they take up less space. I've seen collections of magic, pokemon and yugioh that dwarf whole army collections in scope, scale and size. It's truly insane.

MTG is way more expensive than 40k, doesn't mean 40k isnt expensive too.

And MTG only takes more place in stores usually, unless you're keeping every single card you open (aka : 90% of the draft chaff in sets)

 Togusa wrote:
Did you know that WoTC has recently sold 80$ USD Collector Boosters? I've seen people open them and get 200$ worth of cards. I've seen a LOT of people open them and get 4$ worth of cards. So the old "Warhammer is expensive" trope is something I typically ignore these days.

A note on the card games and space. I don't think that's 100% accurate to say they take up less space. I've seen collections of magic, pokemon and yugioh that dwarf whole army collections in scope, scale and size. It's truly insane.

Ugh, this again. This has been discussed to the death, how can people still get the facts wrong?

- Starting with MtG and playing at casual/kitchen table/beer&prezels level is vastly cheaper than 40k, even long term
- When playing at competitive levels, MtG is vastly more expensive due to rotations and insane classic format card prices
- Drafting is cheaper to get into than 40k to start, but the costs add up to eventually surpass the costs of 40k, even if you are decent player and regularly turn cards into money
- Collecting MtG is way more expensive that 40k could ever be, because there is more to collect and because only very, very few models actually have any collector value. Unless we are talking about something like a metal thunderhawk, most models are either still readily available or considered to be old junk
- No one really uses boosters as their primary way to get cards
- An army of 40k "plateaus" when your collection reaches a certain size and doesn't cost a lot of upkeep afterwards while MtG keeps costing constant amounts of money, even at casual levels. Well, unless GW decides to invalidate half your weapon options, but there's that
- It is possible (but not guaranteed) that your army is still playable after returning to the game after five or more years. This will absolutely not be true for any of your MtG decks.
- When you spend the same amount of money on MtG than you do on 40k, they 40k collection will always dwarf the MtG collection. The box of a battle wagon box can hold roughly 2-3k cards in cheap sleeves, I know this for reasons. A CCG collection that dwarfs an army is the equivalent of those guard armies which take up whole garages/basements/living rooms to display.
- 2D printing cards is cheaper than 3D printing miniatures
- In theory, playing MtG through arena is free, but then you are not free to play in the way you enjoy most.

Did I miss anything?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Trouble with that is Smelly Teenagers will also want Coffee.

Then you have Smelly Teenagers On Coffee clogging up your store.

Plus at least in the U.K., you’d need a food license, constant inspections, elf’n’safety etc etc.

Even if you did that? You’re giving up floor space in already typically quite dinky shops to sell a product not already under served on the high street.

oh right, the UK and NA arent the same environment.

Obviously here in NA where space isnt an issue, double dipping makes for a very interesting environment.

It can be, but personally I find its mostly a rarity still. None of 6 or so within a 70-80 minute drive of me currently bother, and when I was in Albuquerque, 3 of the 4 shops failed while I was there, two of which had big food service areas, and the surviving store did not. The other one that failed... well, the owner felt that having stocked shelves was a problem for other people, and 5 private game rooms for board games and rpgs and a couple public computers to rent play time on was a better use of floor space. Boston had a surprising lack of convenient stores, but the decent ones were pretty dedicated game/hobby stores with little else (one had a small setup for used books)

I haven’t bought a GW hobby product in years.

You can get better quality brushes from elsewhere for cheaper.
You can get better quality paints from elsewhere for cheaper.
You can get better quality basing supplies from elsewhere for cheaper.
You can get better quality bags and cases from elsewhere for cheaper.
You can get better quality tape measures/dice/gaming mats etc from elsewhere for cheaper.

As for models, I always buy from places like eBay or cheaper stores like Darksphere.

I love Warhammer, but I don’t like GW. I’ll especially never forgive them for what they did to WHFB.


That being said, I would probably be inclined to buy more products out of sheer convenience if I still frequented the local GW store. I used to love going down there every weekend 10-15 years ago to play and paint with my friends, but then they started to phase out ‘public use’ tables, and the tables gradually turned into beginner intro game tables one by one that were reserved for 15 minute sales pitch games. I can see why they went this route, but it just meant that most people I know quit the hobby because there wasn’t a gaming club around. That must’ve been quite a lot of income lost for the local GW.

Yep, GW killing its own hobby base out of sheer MBA style min-max bs that ultimately shapes the rules and now, yeah, I dislike GW as a corp as much as I dislike Monsanto and CocaCola, all to blame for making the world more toxic and the people less healthy.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Did you know that WoTC has recently sold 80$ USD Collector Boosters? I've seen people open them and get 200$ worth of cards. I've seen a LOT of people open them and get 4$ worth of cards. So the old "Warhammer is expensive" trope is something I typically ignore these days.

A note on the card games and space. I don't think that's 100% accurate to say they take up less space. I've seen collections of magic, pokemon and yugioh that dwarf whole army collections in scope, scale and size. It's truly insane.

MTG is way more expensive than 40k, doesn't mean 40k isnt expensive too.

And MTG only takes more place in stores usually, unless you're keeping every single card you open (aka : 90% of the draft chaff in sets)

As someone who was familiar with the MTG release model back in t'day before the Dark Times came upon us - yes, I mean early 2020 - I couldn't make heads nor tails of the current release model when I was looking at boosters in my FLGS the other week/month.

The fact they need a poster saying what might be in each type of pack is crazy talk to me.

Yeah They've 3 or 4 types of "booster" now and that's before you get to the one time specials and the INSANE price on some of those "collect old card" packs

 VladimirHerzog wrote:



MTG is way more expensive than 40k, doesn't mean 40k isnt expensive too.

And MTG only takes more place in stores usually, unless you're keeping every single card you open (aka : 90% of the draft chaff in sets)

MtG even durning covid was so big here, that even when our store went down, they still had MtG weekends at our local KFC. Nothing official, but 20+ dudes spending 8 hours at the venue, buying food every 1-2 hours saved the KFC from going bankrupt after the middle school next to it was closed for kids to have all classes online. MtG power is strong, comparing to it w40k is a small hobby. Even at my new store, aside for midnight weekends for veterans, the store owner would be okey for table top to die. But not MtG. We had store events pushed or post poned, because of MtG releases etc Even 8th and 9th ed start didn't push MtG folk from having their one table reserved.

MTG can cost way more than 40K BUT because of how cheap booster packs are there is a huge amount of potential to just make lots of small encouraged sales.

Then there's things like Boosterdraft; a game format that you have to pay to take part in even if you are just purely buying the packs of cards to take part.



For all we talk about how GW monetizes 40K and Warhammer and such; they have nothing on MTG.

 Jidmah wrote:

- It is possible (but not guaranteed) that your army is still playable after returning to the game after five or more years. This will absolutely not be true for any of your MtG decks.

For someone complaining about others getting the facts wrong.....

You don't seem to know that MtG has more formats now days than ever before.
I've bought 1 new card in the past 10 years - because I liked the art.
A few weeks ago? I was talked into playing a few games with some of the kids at the local shop.
The newest cards in any of my decks were added when Coldsnap was the new set.
We picked some vintage/legacy/eternal format that my decks fit (I don't recall it's name) & played a few games. All 3 of my decks still worked fine & the kids got some xp playing something other than draft/Commander + got to see some stuff almost as old as a few of them

Vintage decks cost around 6500$ on avarge. The cheapest ones run on 3000-3500 and the most efficient at around 10000$. I mean not saying it is not fun to play someone go through their entire deck. But it is a one in a lifetime expiriance. Being time walked on a regular basis and then finding out that the deck costs more then your moms car, is probably not a good way to learn stuff.

It would be like expecting that every plastic model in a game of w40k is weighted down with a golden rubel.

ccs wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

- It is possible (but not guaranteed) that your army is still playable after returning to the game after five or more years. This will absolutely not be true for any of your MtG decks.

For someone complaining about others getting the facts wrong.....

You don't seem to know that MtG has more formats now days than ever before.
I've bought 1 new card in the past 10 years - because I liked the art.
A few weeks ago? I was talked into playing a few games with some of the kids at the local shop.
The newest cards in any of my decks were added when Coldsnap was the new set.
We picked some vintage/legacy/eternal format that my decks fit (I don't recall it's name) & played a few games. All 3 of my decks still worked fine & the kids got some xp playing something other than draft/Commander + got to see some stuff almost as old as a few of them

Considering your track record of what you consider to be "fine" for 40k armies, the cards would have to be literally on fire, radioactive and smell of feces for you to consider them to be "not fine".

If your opponents actually bother to update their decks and you aren't sitting on a vintage deck worth several thousands of dollars, power creep will make sure that your decks are hot garbage within a few years.

And before you get all condescending about your grand knowledge about formats - eternal is not a format, and playing a random deck that is legal for vintage or legacy is not the same as actually playing a vintage or legacy game. If they had brought actual legacy or vintage decks, you would have not stood a chance. If you would have been forced to play a format they were prepared for, you would not have stood a chance.

Essentially those "kids" were being nice to you and let gramps win with his gakky worthless old cards. You just didn't realize and are now boasting about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Vintage decks cost around 6500$ on avarge. The cheapest ones run on 3000-3500 and the most efficient at around 10000$. I mean not saying it is not fun to play someone go through their entire deck. But it is a one in a lifetime expiriance. Being time walked on a regular basis and then finding out that the deck costs more then your moms car, is probably not a good way to learn stuff.

It would be like expecting that every plastic model in a game of w40k is weighted down with a golden rubel.

Vintage is not a format new players ever play, it's a rather exclusive format for people with a lot of money and/or old cards. The 40k equivalent would be the games the titan owners club plays.
In my experience the most common casual constructed formats are commander, pauper or just plain 60 card casual.

The thing with Magic the Gathering is that its so insanely variable in power based on deck build - even more so the more blocks you add (so going from the limited format to the unlimited your pool of potential options and power grows vastly).

This also comes down to the local play group. They could be anything from the classic setup of building decks from cards they buy at a decent but not insane rate so thing like rare cards might appear a few times but unlikely to have multiple sets of 4.

All the way to people who research decks online and buy the specific cards they need to build a super powered combo deck .



Thus a huge part depends on that attitude, skill and style of playing that others around you are playing. Far more so, I would say, than Warhammer and other similar wargames. Which isn't saying that there isn't skill in army building and playing; just that MTG is turned up to 20 (forget 11!) in the difference in power and potential.

It's one reason I got into it with a bunch of people at uni who were all around the same level of beginner and player; but have never really manged to get into it again since because the local clubs have different attitudes and skill levels and such.

 Jidmah wrote:


Vintage is not a format new players ever play, it's a rather exclusive format for people with a lot of money and/or old cards. The 40k equivalent would be the games the titan owners club plays.
In my experience the most common casual constructed formats are commander, pauper or just plain 60 card casual.

I know that, I don't think I ever saw real vintage stuff, only reprints from China for people that like to play the format. I am just saying that dropping with power 9 at the store for a casual game with the new boys, is way beyond taking the most tier 1 w40k vs 2-3 dudes who just have a patrol box.

I always liked modern best, because the cards were the cheapest to get and with so many people playing no one had time to check, if someone else deck was 100% WotC official. A bit like with w40k, no one checks if the sm or eldar vehicles from FW are actualy real FW.

ccs wrote:
A few weeks ago? I was talked into playing a few games with some of the kids at the local shop.
The newest cards in any of my decks were added when Coldsnap was the new set.
We picked some vintage/legacy/eternal format that my decks fit (I don't recall it's name) & played a few games. All 3 of my decks still worked fine & the kids got some xp playing something other than draft/Commander + got to see some stuff almost as old as a few of them

I'm glad that worked for you and you had fun, but that kind of thing only works in super casual environments where you're playing vintage/legacy in name only with extremely low-power decks and nobody is even thinking about the meta. Once the financial arms race starts those eternal formats rapidly become inaccessible to all but the wealthiest players, as you either drop thousands of dollars on a deck or don't bother playing because you have no hope of winning. The rotating formats are the only real option for most players, as while your deck goes in the trash every few months the cost to buy it is at least only a few hundred dollars.

beast_gts wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Nah, the stores that succeed are the ones that diversify, you can't survive selling only 40k/mtg/boardgames/comics, you gotta sell all of them

And offer gaming space, and food & drink, and...

I wouldn't agree. Virtually every shop I have encountered is just that a shop. Whether it is second hand like Norfolk Boardgames, Wargames and Collectables, discount like HLS Models or just always there like Orcs Nest. It might be a UK vs US thing, but here normally clubs were where I and those I know would play. One of the things that set GW stores apart was the oddity of routinely offering space to paint and play.

And that's one of the problems with running a store - there isn't a "one-size fits all" solution. You need to tailor your services to the existing community (if there is on) and then grow your community. IMHO it's why the chains / franchises like Geek Retreat often don't work out.