I haven’t watched the adepticon stuff but read the press release and all data sheets needed for your army to play 10th with be available and I think this means stratagems etc aswell.

So codexes will become a collectors item for additional lore etc. I think this is a great idea buuuuuuuut …… it sounds a bit too good to be true.

Do you think this is a compromise because some 9th codexes have just come out and eventually we will need to buy codexes as they enhance 10th or have GW learned the benefit of providing free stuff to get people playing the game???

mrFickle wrote:
I haven’t watched the adepticon stuff but read the press release and all data sheets needed for your army to play 10th with be available and I think this means stratagems etc aswell.

So codexes will become a collectors item for additional lore etc. I think this is a great idea buuuuuuuut …… it sounds a bit too good to be true.

Do you think this is a compromise because some 9th codexes have just come out and eventually we will need to buy codexes as they enhance 10th or have GW learned the benefit of providing free stuff to get people playing the game???

its the Indexes of 8e agian. they WILL be bringing out new codexes, but in order to factilate the datasheet and rules change, they are producing "get you by" rules.

It's GW. There's no way they won't ruin it again by adding more bloat to codex releases. It'll be 8th over again because they still haven't learned the codex system is garbage

There seems to be a lot of confusion around this. The situation is very simple: there will be free Index rules at the start of 10th. These will be completely replaced by each new Codex in exactly the same way 8th operated. You're going to need your Codex to play.

Also of note, GW have been telling us for 2 editions that the core rules are free. While that's been technically true, it's almost impossible to play a game of 40k using the free rules. There's always been something missing from the free version, whether it was terrain rules, missions, or army composition. I'm willing to bet whatever free core rules are provided will have similar restrictions.

From what I read in the WHC article (didnt watch the livestream), datasheets will be free, but will also be made avaiable as faction cards which are sold separately. So, going by current GW pricings, you will be effectively paying your "codex tax" in the form of faction cards set instead.

I personally have no objections to this. I always hated physical codexes with their redundant lore and modelling pages, making the books less useful as faction references due to the superfluous "filler".

The Core rulebook will probably cost about the same as with previous editions. Cheapest way to get one will most likely be off ebay when the 10th ed launch box is released.

Free rules might turn out to be viable this time around. GW will get their book tax monies from the faction cards and official custom dice, so there might not exist a need to act stingy with the rules content.

Only thing about all this which still seems pretty vague is where PL/points values for the units will be found in. And will these be free or locked away in the 40K app or something?

 tauist wrote:
From what I read in the WHC article (didnt watch the livestream), datasheets will be free, but will also be made avaiable as faction cards which are sold separately. So, going by current GW pricings, you will be effectively paying your "codex tax" in the form of faction cards set instead.

I personally have no objections to this. I always hated physical codexes with their redundant lore and modelling pages, making the books less useful as faction references due to the superfluous "filler".

I think you're going to be disappointed. Codecies will still be a thing. They'll supercede the free Index-style rules as they're released.

Core Rules, Indexes and, importantly, points will be free from launch.

Whether that extends beyond Codex Release we can only guess at. I do hope so, but realistically I expect not.

Slipspace wrote:

 tauist wrote:
From what I read in the WHC article (didnt watch the livestream), datasheets will be free, but will also be made avaiable as faction cards which are sold separately. So, going by current GW pricings, you will be effectively paying your "codex tax" in the form of faction cards set instead.

I personally have no objections to this. I always hated physical codexes with their redundant lore and modelling pages, making the books less useful as faction references due to the superfluous "filler".

I think you're going to be disappointed. Codecies will still be a thing. They'll supercede the free Index-style rules as they're released.

This is 40K we are talking about. I cannot be disappointed if I have no real expectations towards it

I survived 9th ed without buying a single codex, I reckon I can survive 10th as well

Slipspace wrote:

 tauist wrote:
From what I read in the WHC article (didnt watch the livestream), datasheets will be free, but will also be made avaiable as faction cards which are sold separately. So, going by current GW pricings, you will be effectively paying your "codex tax" in the form of faction cards set instead.

I personally have no objections to this. I always hated physical codexes with their redundant lore and modelling pages, making the books less useful as faction references due to the superfluous "filler".

I think you're going to be disappointed. Codecies will still be a thing. They'll supercede the free Index-style rules as they're released.

I’m not saying you are wrong but the press release does state that they know we don’t want to be lugging books around, plus I think they will want to direct more attention to their app so if you can get all the data sheets and as they update for a subscription to WH+ then this will probably cover the income stream loss on some codex sales. People will always want codexes though, they can be a thing of beauty.

There was talk at one stage of the game being tied further to the official 'app', so my suspicion is that the rules and points will only be "free" as part of your subscription to that.
In other words, a dreadful idea.

 MalusCalibur wrote:
There was talk at one stage of the game being tied further to the official 'app', so my suspicion is that the rules and points will only be "free" as part of your subscription to that.
In other words, a dreadful idea.

If A) the app is good and B ) having a sub unlocks everything, that would be fine.

How does AoS do it? I don't play it, but I am told that the army books are not actually needed to play, being mostly fluff. All the warscrolls and rules are free to use - even for new units.

Is this true? Could 40k be using the same idea?

If the rules for an army really fit on two sheets of paper + datacards, the incentive to buy a $50 book for those two pages will be even less than it is now.

In my experience, even when people own the Codex, they still use Wahapedia to look up rules during a game since it's searchable, updated with errata and better laid out.

Domandi wrote:
How does AoS do it? I don't play it, but I am told that the army books are not actually needed to play, being mostly fluff. All the warscrolls and rules are free to use - even for new units.

Is this true? Could 40k be using the same idea?

I don't see why not. There has been speculation about AoS being a testing ground for future 40K things, this type of thing would play into these speculations.

People on this board have been harping on and on about how the 40K rules should be free. Could GW be finally listening? Any money saved by not having to buy books usually means having more budget for buying miniatures and terrain. In extreme cases, armies receiving their codex very late in an editions lifecycle can defer miniature buying decisions until the player knows what will be a "good investment" to their army. The roaring 20's is all about that instant gratification. If everyone gets their army rules on day one, that maximizes the "shopping window" and prevents player leakage to other forms of entertainment due to getting bored waiting "to be able to play".

Domandi wrote:
How does AoS do it? I don't play it, but I am told that the army books are not actually needed to play, being mostly fluff. All the warscrolls and rules are free to use - even for new units.

Is this true? Could 40k be using the same idea?

It was true, it's less true now. The scrolls are there, yes, but any special abilities are like the 40k app - locked behind an "buy the battletome and enter the code to unlock this content" paywall. So outside of the base unit stats you can't view anything without buying the book and unlocking it.

 tauist wrote:
There has been speculation about AoS being a testing ground for future 40K things, this type of thing would play into these speculations.

AoS/WHFB has been a testing ground for 40k from the very first edition and every edition thereafter. The thing that surprised me is that 10th edition doesn't come with the silly "wheel" + weapons graphic design that AoS uses. I was certain that it was coming. Glad to be wrong for once.

Wayniac wrote:

Domandi wrote:
How does AoS do it? I don't play it, but I am told that the army books are not actually needed to play, being mostly fluff. All the warscrolls and rules are free to use - even for new units.

Is this true? Could 40k be using the same idea?

It was true, it's less true now. The scrolls are there, yes, but any special abilities are like the 40k app - locked behind an "buy the battletome and enter the code to unlock this content" paywall. So outside of the base unit stats you can't view anything without buying the book and unlocking it.

Ahh, ok. That is a bit of a bummer, but I get it. Thanks for answer.

 MalusCalibur wrote:
There was talk at one stage of the game being tied further to the official 'app', so my suspicion is that the rules and points will only be "free" as part of your subscription to that.
In other words, a dreadful idea.

The core rules will be free as will the unit datasheets. They'll be available for download in pdf form. New model datasheets will be released with the box they come in, as they currently are for AoS.

The app will most likely need a codex purchase to unlock army building functionality. I don't know if you will need a rulebook purchase or not. Whatever AoS does is likely the route 10th edition will go. The app isn't necessary as you can still do all that on paper like we used to do back in the 90s.

Wayniac wrote:
It's GW. There's no way they won't ruin it again by adding more bloat to codex releases. It'll be 8th over again because they still haven't learned the codex system is garbage

Well, here it is in stone. Feel free to burn it down if it happens.

I think that Codex World Eaters is a preview of what we should expect from 10th Edition Codexes. Instead of adding adding layer upon layer of rules and/or adding to the list of available traits, new codexes will present optional variants of the army.

CWE has World Eaters and Disciplines of the Red Angel. They share units and basic rules, but they have completely different sets of Stratagems, Relics, and Warlord Traits along with other focused rules. If they keep their one-in-one-out rule when designing subfactions, there is lots of space for both FTP army list and codexes full of premium content.

Rules will be free until they have something new to sell you.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
... importantly, points will be free from launch.

Points are already free. This isn't something to praise them over.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Well, here it is in stone. Feel free to burn it down if it happens.

Don't be so blatantly naive. Some of us here still remember the declarations of "Your armies won't change! Things are staying the same!" at the start of 4th. Lasted all of a month.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Rules will be free until they have something new to sell you.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
... importantly, points will be free from launch.

Points are already free. This isn't something to praise them over.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Well, here it is in stone. Feel free to burn it down if it happens.

Don't be so blatantly naive. Some of us here still remember the declarations of "Your armies won't change! Things are staying the same!" at the start of 4th. Lasted all of a month.

On that train of thought, can you remember when/where the “last edition ever, updated forever” stuff appeared (was it at 8th or 9th launch)? Came up in discussion today and I swear it was a Twitch stream. Just never seems to have made it to print (or WarCom got retconned which isn’t unthinkable). Two of our group remember it, others swear we’re making it up! GW def claimed it!

As a casual player of small games I'm genuinely interested in this forthcoming edition.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
On that train of thought, can you remember when/where the “last edition ever, updated forever” stuff appeared (was it at 8th or 9th launch)? Came up in discussion today and I swear it was a Twitch stream. Just never seems to have made it to print (or WarCom got retconned which isn’t unthinkable). Two of our group remember it, others swear we’re making it up! GW def claimed it!

It rings a bell, but insaniak (I believe) brought it up in the main thread in N&R.

It’s gonna bloat, GW won’t be able to help themselves. Surely people cannot really be thinking “this is the edition it all changes!!”.
I’ll play around with free rules, but won’t be throwing any money at this edition. Will keep playing my 9th codexes for a while longer.

On the bright side at least this Tyranid Codex is guaranteed to hang around for a while.

And on the not-so-bright side it means that fantastic fluffy rules like daisy-chained psychic powers and adaptive physiologies are likely just going to be replaced with "You're playing Kraken, so you get +1 to movement." as GW massively overcompensates for 9th's bloat and goes in the total opposite direction.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Don't be so blatantly naive. Some of us here still remember the declarations of "Your armies won't change! Things are staying the same!" at the start of 4th. Lasted all of a month.

I'd be inclined to agree had they not clearly called out measurable metrics that we can hold them to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:


On that train of thought, can you remember when/where the “last edition ever, updated forever” stuff appeared (was it at 8th or 9th launch)? Came up in discussion today and I swear it was a Twitch stream. Just never seems to have made it to print (or WarCom got retconned which isn’t unthinkable). Two of our group remember it, others swear we’re making it up! GW def claimed it!

Or the Mandela effect.

And GW changes horses mid race multiple times. It would be foolish to assume that they will stick to anything they start.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And GW changes horses mid race multiple times. It would be foolish to assume that they will stick to anything they start.

If they don't then we kick em square in the nuts.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
It's GW. There's no way they won't ruin it again by adding more bloat to codex releases. It'll be 8th over again because they still haven't learned the codex system is garbage

Well, here it is in stone. Feel free to burn it down if it happens.

There was also a blurb somewhere about there being too many startagems and that really hit home for me!

lets be honest, the free index is because they are re-writing the core rules, in a way that invalidates the existing codices. they *need* to put up a get-you-by index or else most people wont transition to the new rules because they *have* no new rules. Its the same reasons as they did in with 3e and 8e, the core datasheet changes necessitated it.

they make clear that new codexes ARE coming. they claim they will be restrained and only offer sidegrades, not expansions, but time will tell if they can hold themselves to it. However, in can pretty much guarantee that you *will* need to pay for the full rules once the relevant codex drops, either directly via the app, the physical codex (which probs still has the app unlock code in it, like now), or the hardcopy datacards.

If they hold themselves to the current level of info on the revealed datasheets, and keep that much free (like they already do with the 40k app, its strats, WLT, relics, etc that are paywalled), that would be workable.

what i hope they CAN Deliver on his the "less desperate leafing between pages looking for that one special rule" part. if they can keep the unit rules on the datacards, that'd be great. could easily cut 30 minutes off the play time just by better layout like that.

question is still if we get the full rules and index for free or not

simply because the last time, the "the rules are free" did cover some essential parts of the game and you still needed to buy in to play the full game

that we don't have to buy Index books is good, but than I remember the free unit rules we got at the beginning of AoS to make the transition easier
so not sure about that one

I might be surprised that things are going well for release, but there is simply nothing that makes me think that this is not just the usual marketing bs from GW and what we get is not what most people expect from "free rules"

I can't help but think that One-Page-Rules has been an influence on this new edition of 40K.

The important thing is that GW offers rules in an affordable and lite format. Not every player will be interested in attending clubs and events, but hosting a basic game at their home where the important thing is to have fun with friends and family, regardless of the outcome.

This is one of the reasons why I enjoy Age of Sigmar, because all I need are the download rules and warscroll packs.

SamusDrake wrote:
I can't help but think that One-Page-Rules has been an influence on this new edition of 40K.

If that were true, why on earth should anyone spend god knows how much money on books for 40k when OPR is *right there*, with an enjoyable, engaging and sensibly constructed game that is entirely free. GW don't want any of those things.

I mean *really* now, are people falling for the same marketing speak again? All the while Codices exist, and you need them for rules, nothing about GW's "design" process will change.

because 40k is the "official" system and used for events

same as other games have influenced 40k in the past, but people rather play the GW copy than the original

As a non GW gamer who actually has a small collection of random 40K models, the thought that 10th Ed might have been coming with free rules and stats in an app that provides all updates, list building and battle/game management inc damage tracking etc (you know like almost every other established gaming company out there) had me genuinely interested.

But as it looks like that not the case and you will still need lots of physical books, my interest is waning very quickly.

My gaming group is very excited to have unit stat cards, whether we have to pay for them or not. So much more functional than a big book!

I fully expect 10th ed to bloat out over time. Capitalism tells businesses to continually provide new things to sell to buyers, or else the buyers will move on. New releases are a part of how it works. They basically have to choose between new units/models, or new rules. Rules are more cost effective. It'll happen.

But in the meantime, we're excited about unit cards and simpler rules.

xerxeskingofking wrote:
lets be honest, the free index is because they are re-writing the core rules, in a way that invalidates the existing codices. they *need* to put up a get-you-by index or else most people wont transition to the new rules because they *have* no new rules. Its the same reasons as they did in with 3e and 8e, the core datasheet changes necessitated it.

they make clear that new codexes ARE coming. they claim they will be restrained and only offer sidegrades, not expansions, but time will tell if they can hold themselves to it. However, in can pretty much guarantee that you *will* need to pay for the full rules once the relevant codex drops, either directly via the app, the physical codex (which probs still has the app unlock code in it, like now), or the hardcopy datacards.

If they hold themselves to the current level of info on the revealed datasheets, and keep that much free (like they already do with the 40k app, its strats, WLT, relics, etc that are paywalled), that would be workable.

what i hope they CAN Deliver on his the "less desperate leafing between pages looking for that one special rule" part. if they can keep the unit rules on the datacards, that'd be great. could easily cut 30 minutes off the play time just by better layout like that.

It's entirely possible core rules can be free, because they'll charge every 6 months for gt rules.

Regular income is better than selling a big book for a year or less.

xerxeskingofking wrote:
lets be honest, the free index is because they are re-writing the core rules, in a way that invalidates the existing codices. they *need* to put up a get-you-by index or else most people wont transition to the new rules because they *have* no new rules. Its the same reasons as they did in with 3e and 8e, the core datasheet changes necessitated it.

8e indexes were not free ;-) So no they didn't have to do free index. That's at least change.

they make clear that new codexes ARE coming. they claim they will be restrained and only offer sidegrades, not expansions, but time will tell if they can hold themselves to it. However, in can pretty much guarantee that you *will* need to pay for the full rules once the relevant codex drops, either directly via the app, the physical codex (which probs still has the app unlock code in it, like now), or the hardcopy datacards.

Doesn't matter if they are sidegrades though. You still have to buy it or not play army in most enviroments.

So far only change to how 8e/9e was handled is free index.

Free core rules? Check.
Free index? Nope.
Codex coming? Check.

And somehow I doubt core rules has full mission pack so you end up buying the 2 CA's/year as well.

mrFickle wrote:
I haven’t watched the adepticon stuff but read the press release and all data sheets needed for your army to play 10th with be available and I think this means stratagems etc aswell.

So codexes will become a collectors item for additional lore etc. I think this is a great idea buuuuuuuut …… it sounds a bit too good to be true.

Do you think this is a compromise because some 9th codexes have just come out and eventually we will need to buy codexes as they enhance 10th or have GW learned the benefit of providing free stuff to get people playing the game???

No Indexes will be free. Core rules may or may not be reprinted in a core rule book which needs to be purchased at some point. Codices will come back and need to be purchased. You will probably be able to get unit cards fairly easily for free or very cheap.

 MalusCalibur wrote:

SamusDrake wrote:
I can't help but think that One-Page-Rules has been an influence on this new edition of 40K.

If that were true, why on earth should anyone spend god knows how much money on books for 40k when OPR is *right there*, with an enjoyable, engaging and sensibly constructed game that is entirely free. GW don't want any of those things.

I mean *really* now, are people falling for the same marketing speak again? All the while Codices exist, and you need them for rules, nothing about GW's "design" process will change.

Just like with alternative operating systems for your home PC, it might well be true that they're better, faster, safer or whatever than the ubiquitous ones, but many people just want to plug and play, have access to official stores, software etc. without having to engage with the OS itself on any deeper level than necessary and do the work of customizing stuff to fit in new releases and their favourite armies. Just like Linux user groups or retro-computing, alternative rule systems and oldhammer groups exist and are a valuable part of the community, but their mass appeal is limited at least as long as GW keeps pushing an official ruleset and steady new releases. Once a product is abandonend that may well change and the community can agree to use a specific community ruleset as the standard like it did with Epic, but that probably will only happen to 40k if GW ceases to exist.

IMHO the real test will be "core rules free". Key word being CORE RULES. The core rules of 8th and 9th is just that, not narrative/matched play which were only in the big rulebook and without that the game was virtually unplayable outside of demo games.

I have zero reason to think it won't be the same this time. Core rules will be free, yes, but to actually play more than a very simple demo game you need to buy the likely $70+ rulebook.

I'll be shocked if the free rules actually include anything for matched play. At this point I'd hope GW realizes that matched play is like 90% or more of games played, even for narrative, and cut out this 3 ways to play nonsense. It's already bad enough that even most casual games are dictated by the current GT pack so anything not allowed in those aren't allowed in any game.

Wayniac wrote:
IMHO the real test will be "core rules free". Key word being CORE RULES. The core rules of 8th and 9th is just that, not narrative/matched play which were only in the big rulebook and without that the game was virtually unplayable outside of demo games.

I have zero reason to think it won't be the same this time. Core rules will be free, yes, but to actually play more than a very simple demo game you need to buy the likely $70+ rulebook.

I'll be shocked if the free rules actually include anything for matched play. At this point I'd hope GW realizes that matched play is like 90% or more of games played, even for narrative, and cut out this 3 ways to play nonsense. It's already bad enough that even most casual games are dictated by the current GT pack so anything not allowed in those aren't allowed in any game.

Doing this would kill the game for so many people.

the chance is very high that the free stuff are just the basics and you still need to buy something for the full game

and GW does not care if it kills the game for those that play as long as enough people buy the models

Zarathustra Spake wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
I haven’t watched the adepticon stuff but read the press release and all data sheets needed for your army to play 10th with be available and I think this means stratagems etc aswell.

So codexes will become a collectors item for additional lore etc. I think this is a great idea buuuuuuuut …… it sounds a bit too good to be true.

Do you think this is a compromise because some 9th codexes have just come out and eventually we will need to buy codexes as they enhance 10th or have GW learned the benefit of providing free stuff to get people playing the game???

No Indexes will be free. Core rules may or may not be reprinted in a core rule book which needs to be purchased at some point. Codices will come back and need to be purchased. You will probably be able to get unit cards fairly easily for free or very cheap.

If they stick to the army rules for each Detachment being able to fit on a two-page spread, it'll probably be just a matter of clicking on the "Print Army Rules" checkbox in Battlescribe to get them printed out alongside your datacards.

EDIT: Re-reading the initial reveal article, it says that the rules for the subfaction/detachment will be on the cards as well as the datasheets - so I'll probably just buy the card pack with all the rules and skip the bound book entirely.

I think they are getting rid of detachments in 10th. I think there will just be a a cap on certain units per x points

SamusDrake wrote:
I can't help but think that One-Page-Rules has been an influence on this new edition of 40K.

I do think OPR slightly figures into this equation. While we all know that there will be cash grabs to come, the fact that even the equivalent of the 8th edition indices will now be free may indicate that GW is just slightly more nervous about folks getting a bit too curious about other "compatible" games. They have to have noticed the growing popularity of OPR.

Giving folks near as much as OPR does at least until the book train starts rolling is a smart business move. I love Grimdark Future and haven't bought a current 40k book in over a decade, but I'll likely give Free10th at least one or two plays. I have near-zero expectation they will win me back. However, I can't deny that they've definitely baited the hook well to keep existing players firmly on it and lure in others.

Wayniac wrote:
It's GW. There's no way they won't ruin it again by adding more bloat to codex releases. It'll be 8th over again because they still haven't learned the codex system is garbage

It's not that the codex system is garbage. The issue is that GW never set clear and defined design parameters for an edition. They never stay in their lane so to speak and allow the rules team to shift and move in any direction they fancy throughout the edition. The corporate side is happy to allow this to happen as it's their means to bin the whole thing and sell a new edition. It also doesn't help that they do not properly playtest. They admitted this when the LoV codex needed an update prior to release. They admitted that they play only a few games, not even with full armies, against the previous codex and the next codex in the release schedule. It's about the most piss-poor methodology of testing I've ever heard of.

What it... If the information from the 8th edition indexes were broken out into faction books (i.e. codexes), but the index information unchanged. It would have functionally been the same game (i.e. 8th ed. index W40K), but with codexes.

Mods Delete this post please

 oni wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
It's GW. There's no way they won't ruin it again by adding more bloat to codex releases. It'll be 8th over again because they still haven't learned the codex system is garbage

It's not that the codex system is garbage. The issue is that GW never set clear and defined design parameters for an edition. They never stay in their lane so to speak and allow the rules team to shift and move in any direction they fancy throughout the edition. The corporate side is happy to allow this to happen as it's their means to bin the whole thing and sell a new edition. It also doesn't help that they do not properly playtest. They admitted this when the LoV codex needed an update prior to release. They admitted that they play only a few games, not even with full armies, against the previous codex and the next codex in the release schedule. It's about the most piss-poor methodology of testing I've ever heard of.

What it... If the information from the 8th edition indexes were broken out into faction books (i.e. codexes), but the index information unchanged. It would have functionally been the same game (i.e. 8th ed. index W40K), but with codexes.

That's what it should be. But they have to sell you a codex, and unless it has updated rules it won't sell.

Any edition can be a "free" edition if you know where to look.

 Gangland wrote:
Any edition can be a "free" edition if you know where to look.

yeah but think of the 1% player that go to big tournaments and are required to bring all their physical rules!!! (yes, that includes rules from a fething magazine or even a fething novel lol)

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Gangland wrote:
Any edition can be a "free" edition if you know where to look.

yeah but think of the 1% player that go to big tournaments and are required to bring all their physical rules!!! (yes, that includes rules from a fething magazine or even a fething novel lol)

Wait... They put rules in the black library books now? I don't know anything about tourneys but seem wierd GW sell digital versions that you can't use at them lol.

 Gangland wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Gangland wrote:
Any edition can be a "free" edition if you know where to look.

yeah but think of the 1% player that go to big tournaments and are required to bring all their physical rules!!! (yes, that includes rules from a fething magazine or even a fething novel lol)

Wait... They put rules in the black library books now? I don't know anything about tourneys but seem wierd GW sell digital versions that you can't use at them lol.

yeah lol, rules for the "Emperor's spears" chapter were in a novel (Spear of the Emperor)

Wayniac wrote:
It's GW. There's no way they won't ruin it again by adding more bloat to codex releases. It'll be 8th over again because they still haven't learned the codex system is garbage

As long as customers remain stupid and buy into that edition cycle crap GW will not refrain from printing codex books in the future which become obsolete sooner than later.

"Check it this brand new car!"
"Oh my God. That's amazing. Is it the latest?"
"The latest sports car. Every possible feature on the market. It's the best one we've ever made."
"It looks incredible."
"And it is. Runs smooth. Great performance. Tons of features and luxuries."
"Sweet!"
"And it's yours."
"It's mine?"
"Yep. All yours. Completely for free. You own this car. Pretty cool, right?"
"And I just own it?"
"It's free!"
"Wow. Thanks so much."
"Of course if you want to drive it, you'll need this key."
"That key?"
"Yeah. That'll be $300,000 thanks."


This is not a free edition.

All I hope is that the "free" is not going to be "free" with a subscription of Warhammer+.
For marine players the "free" time is going to be like 2 to 4-5 months, and for the rest it is going to be a roll of a dice. You can be like IG updated in 2.5 years time, punished with playing an index till then, or you can be the first non core marine book. And then one has to pray to not be getting a streamlined/tone it down book. Mid edition the balance stuff is going to be the same it was in 8th and 9th.

 Strg Alt wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
It's GW. There's no way they won't ruin it again by adding more bloat to codex releases. It'll be 8th over again because they still haven't learned the codex system is garbage

As long as customers remain stupid and buy into that edition cycle crap GW will not refrain from printing codex books in the future which become obsolete sooner than later.

as long as people play that game, there will be enough new people not knowing how to pirate stuff and buy into it

if you don't want people to buy the books, don't play the game

Core rules have been free for 8th and 9th. This PDF is likely what people should expect for free rules.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Lw4o3USx1R8sU7cQ.pdf

Yeah. Basically useless outside if teaching games.

Wayniac wrote:
Yeah. Basically useless outside if teaching games.

They're perfectly usable for a fun night tho.

 tauist wrote:


I don't see why not. There has been speculation about AoS being a testing ground for future 40K things, this type of thing would play into these speculations.

People on this board have been harping on and on about how the 40K rules should be free. Could GW be finally listening? Any money saved by not having to buy books usually means having more budget for buying miniatures and terrain. In extreme cases, armies receiving their codex very late in an editions lifecycle can defer miniature buying decisions until the player knows what will be a "good investment" to their army. The roaring 20's is all about that instant gratification. If everyone gets their army rules on day one, that maximizes the "shopping window" and prevents player leakage to other forms of entertainment due to getting bored waiting "to be able to play".

How is it "free" when you have to buy the sesonal rule sets anyway, and your army codex when it comes out and the index could be "free", but have stuff like points etc be "free" with a monthly subscription of W+. If the index rules are inferior or go against the core changes of the edition, like 1ksons/GK no more psychic phase change, how fun is it going to be to play a "free" rule set vs armies with codex or a more powerful index.

Karol wrote:
How is it "free" when you have to buy the sesonal rule sets anyway, and your army codex when it comes out and the index could be "free", but have stuff like points etc be "free" with a monthly subscription of W+. If the index rules are inferior or go against the core changes of the edition, like 1ksons/GK no more psychic phase change, how fun is it going to be to play a "free" rule set vs armies with codex or a more powerful index.

The *hope* would be that codexes are just more interesting and not necessarily strictly better. Will that happen? No idea. Can it happen? Given the vastly reduced number of variables, it can -- unless they introduce another new mechanic.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Karol wrote:
How is it "free" when you have to buy the sesonal rule sets anyway, and your army codex when it comes out and the index could be "free", but have stuff like points etc be "free" with a monthly subscription of W+. If the index rules are inferior or go against the core changes of the edition, like 1ksons/GK no more psychic phase change, how fun is it going to be to play a "free" rule set vs armies with codex or a more powerful index.

The *hope* would be that codexes are just more interesting and not necessarily strictly better. Will that happen? No idea. Can it happen? Given the vastly reduced number of variables, it can -- unless they introduce another new mechanic.

What do you mean hope.
At this stage the Spiel of the new and improved rules should get old enough.
It wasn't the case in 7th which replaced 6th, it wasn't the case for 8th which replaced 9th and it most certainly will not be the case now.
Powercreep is a feature.

And just because GW "streamlines" doesn't mean that the lower ammount of options will mean that GW suddendly get's a grip on it's rulesdesign team and manages to knock some sense into them whilest keeping the marketing plebians out of gamedesign.

Powercreep is not a feature. It is a consequence of the release model and lack of staff.

If the quality of rules over time is not evident to you then I'm not sure what to say there. 8th was a bit wild west with each codex being inconsistent. 9th was more consistent and tempered, but too much stuff. Fight first was the set of rules that they hadn't planned out appropriately and finally had to deal with that problem.

I can't envision things being perfect, but they can get close enough to tap it with a hammer.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It is a consequence of the release model and lack of staff.

And a lackadaisical attitude towards rules design with no incentive or enthusiasm to be better.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It is a consequence of the release model and lack of staff.

And a lackadaisical attitude towards rules design with no incentive or enthusiasm to be better.

Yea, I do wonder if the old guard that's still there is a barrier, but I have no idea what kind of culture GW has.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea, I do wonder if the old guard that's still there is a barrier, but I have no idea what kind of culture GW has.

Silo'd and competitive. Combative, even, potentially.

Remember that the boxed game division can hijak releases. Think how Combat Patrol came to be a way of playing 40k. Think of the interaction between 40k studio rules and Forge World rules.

From today's preview: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/03/30/how-army-building-works-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000/

"From the very start of this new edition we’ll be releasing dozens of packs of affordable index cards, which will collect all your rules and datacards in one place for easy reference. These will also be available free online and in the new app."

Looks like all the datasheets and army rules will be free - so the only books needed will be the mission packs for Crusade/Tournament play. (I'll probably just split the cost of the Crusade supplements with the rest of my group.)

same as with AoS.....

 Asmodai wrote:
From today's preview: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/03/30/how-army-building-works-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000/

"From the very start of this new edition we’ll be releasing dozens of packs of affordable index cards, which will collect all your rules and datacards in one place for easy reference. These will also be available free online and in the new app."

Looks like all the datasheets and army rules will be free - so the only books needed will be the mission packs for Crusade/Tournament play. (I'll probably just split the cost of the Crusade supplements with the rest of my group.)

Oh snap. I missed the last sentence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:
same as with AoS.....

And incredibly welcome. No more needing to buy/pirate codexes or flounder with battlescribe to find out what units do. Very cool.

Will it stay that way though??

you are missing that you still need to pirate the codex and flounder with battlescribe in AoS as there are really just the unit rules free and those are of no use outside of an intro game

or just ask why people still buy the battletomes even with the unit cards being free

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Will it stay that way though??

AoS didn't. Remember when all their free rules vanished?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Will it stay that way though??

AoS didn't. Remember when all their free rules vanished?

Yes. It turned out to be a win for me.
Instead of looking at GWs site, I had to switch to Whahapedia. Which had no downside as Wagh also gave me access to all the army rules etc, is easier imo to read than BS, and works on my phone (BS has never loaded right on my phone for some reason....)

(Really wish there was a delete button.)

Hecate wrote:
I fully expect 10th ed to bloat out over time. Capitalism tells businesses to continually provide new things to sell to buyers, or else the buyers will move on. New releases are a part of how it works. They basically have to choose between new units/models, or new rules. Rules are more cost effective. It'll happen.

I'm sure this has been said many times and many ways, but GW is a business in the business of making money. I have decided to come back for 10th edition, and I fully expect that there will be some required purchases aside from the models for my new army.

I'm getting deja vu to the leadup to 9th when people were saying the same things about it sounding positive, cutting back on bloat, streamlining the rules, same old same old. We all know how long that lasted.

 Arbitrator wrote:
I'm getting deja vu to the leadup to 9th when people were saying the same things about it sounding positive, cutting back on bloat, streamlining the rules, same old same old. We all know how long that lasted.

exactly. This is the same gak they've said for 2 editions now and it's been bs every time

Well, enjoy your stay in the Ivory Tower of No Context. Imma be having fun over here ====> when you're done.

My memory must be fuzzy. I don't recall 9th Edition being about removing bloat. I remember it being the about improving rules preciseness and mitigating feel-bad tactics.

Once we started seeing codexes, it was about revising unit statistic standards about toughness and adding army purity rules to punish soup.

In 10th, we have a solid statement of simplification, consolidation of army rules, and a strategy on detachments and unit datasheets that we will be able to measure compliance with almost no effort at all. Should be interesting to see if they go back on their stated intentions.

^^^
This

I think there's real differences over "what different posters mean by bloat" that are making following lots of threads kind of difficult.

Marines and Sisters got purity bonuses in 8th. We kind of knew everyone was going to get them in 9th. Along with more significant subfaction bonuses, better stratagems etc etc. This undoubtedly added complexity. In terms of "stacking rules" this was bloat.

The question is how far - if at all - they walk that back.

Presumably we'll get the full breakdown of what "Gladius Task Force" does in a week or three and then there will be a clearer idea of how that compares to subfaction bonuses/purity bonuses.

Tyel wrote:
I think there's real differences over "what different posters mean by bloat" that are making following lots of threads kind of difficult.

Marines and Sisters got purity bonuses in 8th. We kind of knew everyone was going to get them in 9th. Along with more significant subfaction bonuses, better stratagems etc etc. This undoubtedly added complexity. In terms of "stacking rules" this was bloat.

The question is how far - if at all - they walk that back.

Presumably we'll get the full breakdown of what "Gladius Task Force" does in a week or three and then there will be a clearer idea of how that compares to subfaction bonuses/purity bonuses.

IMHO by far the worst offenders in mental load and 'felt' bloat are these multi-phase abilities like battle doctrines, wanton nonsense the CSM get, or the various forms of bookkeeping points like e.g. Warpstorm points and so on. They already said that the SM doctrines are still in in some form, which, to me, means that they either have different ideas than me about what consitutes bloat, or are not intent on cutting it back that much. We'll have to see of course, but that's what i gather from their puff pieces so far.

Tsagualsa wrote:
IMHO by far the worst offenders in mental load and 'felt' bloat are these multi-phase abilities like battle doctrines, wanton nonsense the CSM get, or the various forms of bookkeeping points like e.g. Warpstorm points and so on. They already said that the SM doctrines are still in in some form, which, to me, means that they either have different ideas than me about what consitutes bloat, or are not intent on cutting it back that much. We'll have to see of course, but that's what i gather from their puff pieces so far.

Yeah. For me "bloat" is the mental load of rules. Not the fact a certain space marine unit has 3 different choices of bolt gun to take.

So for example Ad Mech I think are terrible for this. The decision is "I shoot unit X at unit Y" - lets see what happens.
But then you have to check which rules apply. And with Canticles, Imperatives, Stratagems and character buffs you can end up with about 6~ rules to potentially factor into the outcome. Which if you had a computer do it would be fine. But you don't. So its just annoying.

Tsagualsa wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I think there's real differences over "what different posters mean by bloat" that are making following lots of threads kind of difficult.

Marines and Sisters got purity bonuses in 8th. We kind of knew everyone was going to get them in 9th. Along with more significant subfaction bonuses, better stratagems etc etc. This undoubtedly added complexity. In terms of "stacking rules" this was bloat.

The question is how far - if at all - they walk that back.

Presumably we'll get the full breakdown of what "Gladius Task Force" does in a week or three and then there will be a clearer idea of how that compares to subfaction bonuses/purity bonuses.

IMHO by far the worst offenders in mental load and 'felt' bloat are these multi-phase abilities like battle doctrines, wanton nonsense the CSM get, or the various forms of bookkeeping points like e.g. Warpstorm points and so on. They already said that the SM doctrines are still in in some form, which, to me, means that they either have different ideas than me about what consitutes bloat, or are not intent on cutting it back that much. We'll have to see of course, but that's what i gather from their puff pieces so far.

Chaos Knights....so on theme, but so so difficult to deal with until you play it a ton.

Arbitrator wrote:I'm getting deja vu to the leadup to 9th when people were saying the same things about it sounding positive, cutting back on bloat, streamlining the rules, same old same old. We all know how long that lasted.

I don't remember that at all. In fact, I distinctly remember extensive arguments over whether the Heavy Cover mechanic meant that the attacker gets the benefit or the defender gets the benefit, because intuitively it seemed like the defender benefits but the snippet of legalese they previewed said the opposite. The terrain rules got more complicated, they introduced Blast as a mechanic, they added an exception for vehicles and monsters to Heavy, they added another fallback mechanic, coherency got more complex, they added Actions.

I seriously don't remember anyone arguing that 9th looked simpler, streamlined, or less bloated- the prevailing sentiment was that it was adding complexity to an otherwise bare-bones core ruleset. If you can find substantial evidence to the contrary I'll eat my words.

TBH I remembered it being touted as simpler too, but on second glance yeah it seemed like adding extra complexity to appease the competitive players.

Wayniac wrote:
TBH I remembered it being touted as simpler too, but on second glance yeah it seemed like adding extra complexity to appease the competitive players.

That's the problem with making blanket assertions. You start to believe that they're true regardless of the circumstances ( GW buffs models to sell, GW nerfs models to sell, and on and on ). People couldn't even help themselves to complaining about the April Fools video. At some point people have to take a step back and reassess how they're processing information and whether or not they're bound by group mentality.

A problem to which no one is immune.

Did GW say that 8th codexes would work in 9th which basically means there weren’t going to be any major changes one way or the other. Where as they are making such significant changes that they have to give a set of free rules so people can start playing the game.

This doesn’t prove anything other than this won’t be the same as the move from 8th to 9th

mrFickle wrote:
Did GW say that 8th codexes would work in 9th which basically means there weren’t going to be any major changes one way or the other. Where as they are making such significant changes that they have to give a set of free rules so people can start playing the game.

Correct

I sure am glad that GW has never had any track record of struggling to keep cards in stock.

Shut up Necromunda!

Tyel wrote:

Yeah. For me "bloat" is the mental load of rules. Not the fact a certain space marine unit has 3 different choices of bolt gun to take.

I'd argue they both are. Both add options, rules and granularity without an adding value to the experience. I agree though that weapon proliferation is just one layer and as you point out there are many on top of that.

 catbarf wrote:

Arbitrator wrote:I'm getting deja vu to the leadup to 9th when people were saying the same things about it sounding positive, cutting back on bloat, streamlining the rules, same old same old. We all know how long that lasted.

I don't remember that at all. In fact, I distinctly remember extensive arguments over whether the Heavy Cover mechanic meant that the attacker gets the benefit or the defender gets the benefit, because intuitively it seemed like the defender benefits but the snippet of legalese they previewed said the opposite. The terrain rules got more complicated, they introduced Blast as a mechanic, they added an exception for vehicles and monsters to Heavy, they added another fallback mechanic, coherency got more complex, they added Actions.

.

People were saying that unless GW modifies the marine bloat, it is going to kill the game. Then GW nerfed marines, some like IF so much, that they stayed bad the entire 9th ed, Plus there was the usual cry of how marines have too many subfaction, and they should just all be streamlined in to one army with all outliers either being counts as or removed. Sometimes with people army of choice replacing what ever marine army should be removed fastest.

How long do we think these Datasheet Cards will be valid for? I might wanna pre order some, but not if they're invalid 3-6 months later when a codex drops.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
How long do we think these Datasheet Cards will be valid for? I might wanna pre order some, but not if they're invalid 3-6 months later when a codex drops.

Datasheet Cards will be good until the Codex release for that specific army when a new set of cards will drop alongside the Codex and the Digital App purchase. According to GW, you only need one of the 3 options to play.

With the community getting cards in printable form it won't be long before people engineer a way to update and re-print them if GW doesn't.