It looks awesome. Literally everything looks well done: infantry squads can be bought 3-per-troop slot, provenance let you field ogryn or cavalry centric armies, you can take massed, massed tanks but they're deliberately weak ('third line' makes glancing hits penetrating!) And you can even pack cargo-8s as 'technicals' and jump pack soldiers with pistols.
At the same time, is it wrong that my first thought is 900 respawning levy grunts with lasguns? Just to see how many I can lose?
"There's an objective under there somewhere!!"
"Maybe but I'm running out of phosphex over here!"
Hey, that I don't mind so much, as long as they're awful BUT cheap. The fact that levy and third-line tanks give away no victory points because they're so damn expendable is a nice touch.
Horus Heresy is a game where I think it's fair to emphasis the difference between 'these are space marines' and 'these are really really really NOT space marines'.
For that matter even making sure there's a meaningful difference with solar auxiliary 'regulars' seems fair.
Then again they're still making the classic blunder of "Elite" humans costing almost as much as Marines while still dying to a stiff breeze. 8 pt Grenadiers with Bolters... with all 3s and a 5+ save I doubt they're worth 80% a Marine... or indeed 4 2-point Levy. Good luck painting 1000 dudes tho
I'm genuinely sad so many "upgrades" are also just so weak... like every single Provenance
on one hand, yes on the other hand. Having cut out morale mitigation to an absurd degree and then shoveling the milita archetype down our throat really isn't.. ok imo, especially not the bit about sweeping advances. Because at that stage it doesn't matter if i outnumer you 4 : 1 you will just artiifically fold my whole infantry unit.
otoh. I can create the army i want more or less successfully and i have decent ways to field that on the battlefield.
Horrendously though, this army will outright wipe the floor with infantry heavy Solar auxilia, if solely for the fieldgun battery. NVM the actually ok priced heavy artillery.
Nearly everything in this pdf is so dramatically overpriced I can't imagine how anything but a very bizarre skew list could stand a chance against a conventional marine army. Even basic tactical marines (who are largely ineffective in most matchups) will mow through militia troops while taking few if any losses in return.
It doesn't help that the new rules are significantly less favourable than old heresy to regular humans, with large free cover saves being more of a rarity. The reduction in penetration/lethality also doesn't really help these guys although I suppose you're marginally less likely to see whole squads of guys vaporized under ordy templates.
"The army specifically said to be a gaggle of untrained troops used as a blocking force isn't easy to use."
Congratulations, you have discovered The Point.
Gert wrote: "The army specifically said to be a gaggle of untrained troops used as a blocking force isn't easy to use."
Congratulations, you have discovered The Point.
For all the clamouring HH people do about playing the lore-accurate armies and absolutely needing a specific plastic kit for the mark XI power-armour nipples they seem to miss that relatively often if 'accuracy' does not map straight to ingame advantages
Tsagualsa wrote: For all the clamouring HH people do about playing the lore-accurate armies and absolutely needing a specific plastic kit for the mark XI power-armour nipples they seem to miss that relatively often if 'accuracy' does not map straight to ingame advantages
Dakka so far is the only place I've seen people really whinge (well excluding people who were expecting dedicated kits for some strange reason), so you know, par for the course.
Gert wrote: "The army specifically said to be a gaggle of untrained troops used as a blocking force isn't easy to use."
Congratulations, you have discovered The Point.
Interpreting second line, in the context of how the imperial army is supposed to be, as untrained gaggle is certainly a ... Take.
Not Online!!! wrote: Interpreting second line, in the context of how the imperial army is supposed to be, as untrained gaggle is certainly a ... Take.
Cool but this list is not the Imperial Army, is it? This is the local defence forces raised on planets after the Crusade forces leave. You can certainly choose to have Your Dudes be a revived Imperial Army Regiment and the rules allow you to do so but these rules are primarily to represent the irregular forces raised to bolster the manpower of the two sides of the Heresy.
Are they brilliant? No, but neither was the HH1 list barring some blindingly OP builds that needed to be removed. I'm fine with having an army that requires a bit of skill to master.
Gert wrote: "The army specifically said to be a gaggle of untrained troops used as a blocking force isn't easy to use."
Congratulations, you have discovered The Point.
Interpreting second line, in the context of how the imperial army is supposed to be, as untrained gaggle is certainly a ... Take.
But this .pdf does not present the Imperial Army, it represents Militia and Levy forces. In the parlance of 40k, these would be PDF forces and such, not the Guard. Specifically the lowest rung on the ladder of competence that is still considered actual military.
Across the entire Imperium, it falls to the Imperialis Militia
to secure and to hold those worlds brought to Compliance
by the Expeditionary fleets of the Great Crusade. Part of the
vast, sprawling body of the Imperium’s military and its support
structure, known collectively as the ‘Excertus Imperialis’, they
form what is in effect the lowest and most common rung
of the wider Imperial Army, or the ‘Imperialis Auxilia’ as it is
more precisely known. Once a world is declared Compliant
and under the full control of an appointed and independent
Imperial Commander, part of that Commander’s principal
duty is the raising of an Imperialis Militia to protect their
domain and sustain their control. It is the duty of this militia
to act in no small part as the enforcers of the Imperial Truth if
needed, and its protectors should the Iterators and cadres of
administrators of all stripes who are left behind to oversee the
long transition to full concordance become threatened or meet
resistance. When the first- and second-line units of the Crusade
hosts depart, such worlds stand alone once more. Should
rebellion ignite, the third-line reserve – the world’s own militia
– must crush it. Should xenos raiders or outcasts attack from
without, the world’s own militia must hold until help arrives.
The Imperialis Militia are therefore the first, and in many
cases, the only bulwark against recidivism and disorder, and
its forces, whether they are raised as conscripts from a hive’s
teeming masses, the yeomanry of a feudal order or tribal levies,
stand guard as watchmen against the return of the horrors of
Old Night.
Yes, it's lore accurate. It's also unplayable outside maybe a few dumb skew lists. Levy spam would probably be decent at first glance but you can't physcally fit as many as you need on the table. Not to mention being the most expensive HH army even if you spam Wargames Atlantic proxies.
Indeed. Levy seem way more useful than 'regulars' just because of the sheer footprint you can field.
I do like that cavalry and ogryns are both options, and both have had some thought put into them - assault 5 ripper guns and a no-aiming-required heavy flamer balance out the BS2 ogryns a bit better than it used to be.
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You can certainly choose to have Your Dudes be a revived Imperial Army Regiment and the rules allow you to do so but these rules are primarily to represent the irregular forces raised to bolster the manpower of the two sides of the Heresy.
You can, but it's worth noting that the provenances that would fit such a unit are things like Warrior Elite, Armoury of Old Night and Legacy Of The Great Crusade which pushes you towards BS4 grenadiers with lasguns or lasrifles that look way more like budget solar auxiliaries.
locarno24 wrote: You can, but it's worth noting that the provenances that would fit such a unit are things like Warrior Elite, Armoury of Old Night and Legacy Of The Great Crusade which pushes you towards BS4 grenadiers with lasguns or lasrifles that look way more like budget solar auxiliaries.
Right because the list isn't intended to represent the mainline army soldiers. Why is this such a shock when the document literally gives you all the information on what the army is?
lord_blackfang wrote: Yes, it's lore accurate. It's also unplayable outside maybe a few dumb skew lists. Levy spam would probably be decent at first glance but you can't physcally fit as many as you need on the table.
Unplayable is such a nonsense word. Non-competitive, sure but unplayable? No, not true. And so what if the army relies on taking silly lists dedicated to mass cavalry charges or conscript spam? That's the point of the army to build crazy lists and crazy models.
Not to mention being the most expensive HH army even if you spam Wargames Atlantic proxies.
Probably one of the reasons why the article recommends veteran HH players try the army. Hell the intention behind the army in HH1 was to entice 40k Guard and R&H players into HH, which is the exact same thing it's doing here. That's what the Ruinstorm and Militia lists are intended to do, give players with substantial collections a chance to use them in HH.
lord_blackfang wrote: Yes, it's lore accurate. It's also unplayable outside maybe a few dumb skew lists. Levy spam would probably be decent at first glance but you can't physcally fit as many as you need on the table.
Unplayable is such a nonsense word. Non-competitive, sure but unplayable? No, not true. And so what if the army relies on taking silly lists dedicated to mass cavalry charges or conscript spam? That's the point of the army to build crazy lists and crazy models.
Silly lists are great if they're what you want to play, not if they're the only thing that's good enough to play. And even when it is it isn't - everything that's good in this list is skewing towards ridiculously cheap, ridiculously large hordes in magnitudes that aren't physically playable. The middling units are just terrible value for points and internal balance is atrocious, I'll repeat the one that should have jumped out at anyone
Fire Support Squad... 30 points for a 2-wound heavy bolter.
Rapier... 30 points for a 5-wound gravis heavy bolter battery.
Also enjoy the "fun" beastmaster unit where you can pay points for monsters a bunch of abilities they can't use because they're locked in a mixed unit with handlers.
It's a list written with remarkable incompetence with any viable units being a result of pure chance. Which is a shame because there sure are a lot of fun modelling projects in it.
I think that it would be fun to run a mass army of Tainted Flesh. I would give them all lasrifles with bayonets, but I'm too lazy to actually model rifles on all of them, so I'll just say that they can shoot darts from their bodies like Carnage, and that the bayonets are claws and teeth. Chaos Warhounds would make for good warp-touched Mastiffs.
Not Online!!! wrote: Interpreting second line, in the context of how the imperial army is supposed to be, as untrained gaggle is certainly a ... Take.
Cool but this list is not the Imperial Army, is it? This is the local defence forces raised on planets after the Crusade forces leave. You can certainly choose to have Your Dudes be a revived Imperial Army Regiment and the rules allow you to do so but these rules are primarily to represent the irregular forces raised to bolster the manpower of the two sides of the Heresy.
Are they brilliant? No, but neither was the HH1 list barring some blindingly OP builds that needed to be removed. I'm fine with having an army that requires a bit of skill to master.
That is fair especially since the army is very adaptable and therefore could very easily be problematic.
However, when you remove the core issues of the list (fearless blobs and artillery) and then proceed to kick the rest of the list (militia archetype and mothballed tanks) then we are at a point were one wonders if a Beta wouldn't have provided better results but then again GW-Ruleswriter hate feedback.
Nvm rapiers and HWT's points seem like an excercise in why?(also quadlauncher rapiers only get frags? not Incindiary or AT seems like an oversight to me aswell)
And fwiw, they are still part of the army and considering that the HH era imperium had it's gak more together it is questionable in many ways that it is very iffy to break into the "second " rank formations when this would be the most sensible place to grant us these rules anyways.
Edit: also artillery is still an issue considering that the lower AP double nerfed Human forces by A robbing them of their tool against marines and B still getting utterly obliterated by it.
You can still use Rage, Furious Charge, Shrouded, and FNP at all times on the beasts. The only one that kicks in when the handlers die is Fleet.
@Not_Online!!!
Quads only got Frag in HH1 as well. "Specialist" shells are reserved for real Army units.
As for the last bit, sort of. The Imperium was better organised during the Crusade than post-Heresy but only on the front lines. The forces represented by the Militia list are that, militia. These are formations made up of the local PDF, enforcers, household guards, bonded serfs, or conscripts who don't serve in a regular capacity. Think the Home Guard but they actually get into combat at some point. They're useful for holding actions and supporting with the sheer weight of numbers but they're not real soldiers.
If you put a gun to my head, I would choose the Russ spam trait and Squat trait, I guess. Max out on 2 point T4 Levy, T6 Ogryn and 120 point almost AV14 gravis lascannons.
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Gert wrote: You can still use Rage, Furious Charge, Shrouded, and FNP at all times on the beasts. The only one that kicks in when the handlers die is Fleet.
@lord_blackfang
Skirmish allows for 3" coherency so actually no, all the beast movement values are within the usable range. They also all get +1 to Terrain cover saves.
So the only rule the beasts don't often benefit from is Fleet.
Kinfolk Helots + Warrior Elite is probably the one I'd want to take.
I actually have models for most of a 1000 pts list, using the Einherjar from WGA with vehicles and "Discipline Masters" from my Guard collection. Need a full size Recce Squad and a Force Commander w/power armor and power weapon, but those are easy buys. I was thinking a Einhyr Champion for the FC.
Kinfolk Helots is probably the best one by a staggeringly large margin. Honestly most traits would have still been weak without all the crippling "thematic" downsides and without the 100 point tax Character who'd lose melee to a Nurgling base.
lord_blackfang wrote: Kinfolk Helots is probably the best one by a staggeringly large margin. Honestly most traits would have still been weak without all the crippling "thematic" downsides.
I think this blow could've been softened by letting you take three tbh.
Honestly I'd probably use them as support. Cheap, bullet catching objective holders, blockers or used to pin a better unit in place for a while.
Due to how HH/early 40k works cheaper units have more of a place than in current 40k due to how targeting/charge restrictions work. As an example you can't just shoot the 2PPM unit then charge the more important elites behind it. And a boltgun squad could spend a couple turns shooting and not come close to making it's points back. Combat though may work due to combat res.
Slot them in to a normal traitor force to fill gaps, physically and strategically.
No more Squats 'counts-as' with the provenances re-do; but you can field an army of rough-riders or pretend you're tau.
I always thought the possibility of anyone having a complete army worth of squats was ultra-remote, but meme-worthy enough for someone to pull it off.
A rough-rider army doesn't even have that going for it so its inclusion seemed properly bizarre.
Of course, now after a bit of googling i find that GW released new rough-rider models last year and it all makes sense.
I liked the 'Cargo-8' concept (basically a trukk) but they should clearly have just made the 'munitorum armoured container' upgraydde make it an enclosed transport rather than messing around with armour values
I love how people pronounce on the effectiveness of a list within minutes of its release...
This list would be the perfect excuse to field a genuine WWI-style army, complete with wheeled artillery - the way the Guard were originally depicted. It would be fun to convert the Leman Russes so that they looked even more like WWI tanks (it's a shame they can't have sponson weapons though).
No more Squats 'counts-as' with the provenances re-do; but you can field an army of rough-riders or pretend you're tau.
I always thought the possibility of anyone having a complete army worth of squats was ultra-remote, but meme-worthy enough for someone to pull it off. A rough-rider army doesn't even have that going for it so its inclusion seemed properly bizarre.
Of course, now after a bit of googling i find that GW released new rough-rider models last year and it all makes sense.
I liked the 'Cargo-8' concept (basically a trukk) but they should clearly have just made the 'munitorum armoured container' upgraydde make it an enclosed transport rather than messing around with armour values
This list is honestly great. It's got the cavalry the heresy community has wanted for milita since day 1, it's got the sentinels the community wanted since day 1, it's removed the mad OP stuff like the cult horde, it's super flexible, it names it super easy to just plug in your IG army, it's open to converting, it's varied, it seems to have actually been proofread. I think it's a. 10/10 job
Even cult horde is still there in name: crusader and hatred everything plus a second melee enhancing provenance is still an option, it just doesn't give you Fearless.
Plus rogue psykers being able to pokeball i-choose-you bound daemons at someone with Rend The Veil gives them a meaningful use now.
Also, it's not GOOD but I love the alien curios warlord trait just because it catches the point so perfectly: you have a shiny gadget but have no idea what it does.
"Active THE DEVICE!!!!"
[It turns out 'the device' is a xenos demolition charge]
"Fffffuuuuuuuu....."
[Explodes]
No more Squats 'counts-as' with the provenances re-do; but you can field an army of rough-riders or pretend you're tau.
I always thought the possibility of anyone having a complete army worth of squats was ultra-remote, but meme-worthy enough for someone to pull it off.
A rough-rider army doesn't even have that going for it so its inclusion seemed properly bizarre.
Of course, now after a bit of googling i find that GW released new rough-rider models last year and it all makes sense.
I liked the 'Cargo-8' concept (basically a trukk) but they should clearly have just made the 'munitorum armoured container' upgraydde make it an enclosed transport rather than messing around with armour values
What? There's an explicit squat provenance tho.
Indeed. Kinfolk Helots makes your infantry Squats. Then a free pick of anything else you feel best compliments stunties.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Third Line is rather fun. Basically whilst yes, Lovely Boys, you can have a Baneblade…it’s so rusty, glancing hits penetrate.
I like the lore and it was a fun read for a GW free PDF. Also in terms of creating incredibly tempting Modelling possibilities and getting the creative cogs turning it's honestly one of the best bang for buck documents i've read.
I think there was a bit too much misplaced effort in the 'Provenances', some of them are absurd handicaps for imo very little thematic 'juice'.
Also the 'point tax' style balancing seems a little odd for a system based on 6/7th 40k. I feel that came in later, 100 points for a very weak HQ (with expensive wargear) feels like something 5 balance data slate buff/nerfs deep into an 8/9th edition codex.
Give the Cav their AP3 lances for free and you've almost got a semi decent unit i guess.
Given the change i suppose you're right but it's just that imo in (3/4/5)6/7th it didn't really work like that.
You would often get things like the provenances essentially for free (they usually didn't come with handicaps either! haha) like the formations and not have points taxes added to character itself.
At an even more basic level You didn't pay more for some character that gave you whatever elites choice as troops, you payed for the statline and tabletop abilities.
Honestly, watching some people here whinge about how the free pdf didn't have enough beta testing and how the free pdf isn't powerful enough and how the free pdf won't complete your tax returns for you is just mind-blowing.
Anyone who was looking to this list for the next hot tournament list in a marine-centric game system kinda misundertands the point, no?
Back in HH1.0 I played a non-optimised infantry heavy, elite grenadiers type list for a six battle campaign. I lost every single game and had a blast.
Hell, I nearly beat a Custodes & Sisters of Silence list; all it needed was for my opponent to fail one failable leadership test, and the game was mine. It was one of my hobby highlights. I still remember it now at least five years later. I wiped out a squad of Space Wolf terminators, and though I lost that battle, I still count it a moral victory. See them? Those Space Wolves? Yeah, they lost ten terminators to militia. They're not so tough. Another Space Wolves player spent the entire game giving his toy soldiers extra inches on their movement and various other types of WAAC type shenanigans just to beat them.
There are playable armies here, and whilst they are probably underpowered, they aren't unusable. They also feel very thematic and narratively driven.
Free or not the list exists to sell miniatures, and needs to be designed with some degree of competence if it is to perform that function for people who aren't unthinking slaves to the brand.
lord_blackfang wrote: Free or not the list exists to sell miniatures, and needs to be designed with some degree of competence if it is to perform that function for people who aren't unthinking slaves to the brand.
Why does not worrying too much if I win lots of games equate to being an unthinking slave to the brand?
If I run a militia list, I'm doing it for the narrative of the plucky underdog, not trying to fight on a level playing field.
I don't want zero chance of winning, but I don't care if it is only a low chance. Like I said, even my badly written list did okay last time out, and was excellent in terms of making it a fun experience. If all someone cares about is winning, there are other lists for them, you know?
So you whinging for a full page is because you're worried about GW's profits? Suuuuuuurrreee.
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Fifty wrote: Why does not worrying too much if I win lots of games equate to being an unthinking slave to the brand?
If I run a militia list, I'm doing it for the narrative of the plucky underdog, not trying to fight on a level playing field.
I don't want zero chance of winning, but I don't care if it is only a low chance. Like I said, even my badly written list did okay last time out, and was excellent in terms of making it a fun experience. If all someone cares about is winning, there are other lists for them, you know?
That's always been my philosophy on the army and continues to be. I brought up the beast unit when our group was discussing the list and one said it wasn't a great unit to which I said, "Who cares, I can take battle crocodiles.".
Gert wrote: So you whinging for a full page is because you're worried about GW's profits? Suuuuuuurrreee.
I have no horse in this race except a desire for a healthy game ecosystem and a personal passion for seeing competent design for its own sake, neither of which is happening here. But I do assume GW is motivated by GW's profits, hence this pdf is not only a subjective failure in my eyes as a rules connoisseur but an objective failure at its intended goal of boosting sales and reaffirms a staggering level of incompetence present in the design studio and a depressing level of low standards in the customer base. But perhaps I'm wrong and it will motivate enough whales to go out and buy 50 boxes of Breachers/Blooded/Krieg/whatever that they'll never even unwrap that GW will consider it a worthwhile job.
Nr. 1 a "normal" list, will just get fethed. no two ways around it. you are not running a bad list, you are running a list that will inevitably get slaugtered and even something like SA will massacre you if you like grens and recons.
Unless you play to piss off literally every other player in the vicinity by beeing as annoying as possible to play against respectivly your list. ------------------
Nr. 2. You run Melee spam of very specific spams. Ogryns with thunder hammers on ini 2 with 4+ Shield and a medicae. / Or mass cav 1 turn charge. S7 Ap3 and brutal 2 are surely nice T1 in your face (especially with feral warriors... when mixed with shotguns)
Nr. 3. You run what i call the meat grinder. Remember, all your normal and levy militia can take up to 3 squads for one troopslot meaning that technically you can throw down 18 50 man blocks of bajonett levies. for a measily 1980 pts. Returning on 4+ due to unending horde. Add in the force commander you are at 2080 pts. Now you go to your eliteslot and buy artillery. And or some shotguns. And so long you don't run into salamanders and their massed flamers, yeah you just chocke your enemy Alternative take, 40 mortar teams and 300 militia. And watch the despair of rolling that many direction dices oh and there are units that can carry a nuncio AND you got the option still for elite artillery AND heavy support artillery...
------------------
ergo sequitur: If you want to play your strengths, which you will need imo since the army doesn't do intermediate semi elite well or tacs, you either drown in piles of models and you do so to your opponent too or you run a very iffy skew, and pray that you get t1.
That is not good design, and i say that as someone that loves infantry artillery armies. Otoh, "elite " has far too little access to special weapons (seriously 1 in militia regardless of size? and the command cardre? nvm grens).
No more Squats 'counts-as' with the provenances re-do; but you can field an army of rough-riders or pretend you're tau.
I always thought the possibility of anyone having a complete army worth of squats was ultra-remote, but meme-worthy enough for someone to pull it off.
A rough-rider army doesn't even have that going for it so its inclusion seemed properly bizarre.
Of course, now after a bit of googling i find that GW released new rough-rider models last year and it all makes sense.
I liked the 'Cargo-8' concept (basically a trukk) but they should clearly have just made the 'munitorum armoured container' upgraydde make it an enclosed transport rather than messing around with armour values
What? There's an explicit squat provenance tho.
Where is the power armour?
That was what clued me into the 'Survivors of the Dark Age' being a Squat provenance - the official RT-era squats models i remember have PA.
edit: oh, would you look at that! GW released new models for squats in 2022, and they are all in exo/power armour...
Fifty wrote: Honestly, watching some people here whinge about how the free pdf didn't have enough beta testing and how the free pdf isn't powerful enough and how the free pdf won't complete your tax returns for you is just mind-blowing.
Anyone who was looking to this list for the next hot tournament list in a marine-centric game system kinda misundertands the point, no?
Back in HH1.0 I played a non-optimised infantry heavy, elite grenadiers type list for a six battle campaign. I lost every single game and had a blast.
Hell, I nearly beat a Custodes & Sisters of Silence list; all it needed was for my opponent to fail one failable leadership test, and the game was mine. It was one of my hobby highlights. I still remember it now at least five years later. I wiped out a squad of Space Wolf terminators, and though I lost that battle, I still count it a moral victory. See them? Those Space Wolves? Yeah, they lost ten terminators to militia. They're not so tough. Another Space Wolves player spent the entire game giving his toy soldiers extra inches on their movement and various other types of WAAC type shenanigans just to beat them.
There are playable armies here, and whilst they are probably underpowered, they aren't unusable. They also feel very thematic and narratively driven.
Blood hell people, get a grip of yourselves.
And now imagine a world in which the list was balanced.
Nr. 1 a "normal" list, will just get fethed. no two ways around it. you are not running a bad list, you are running a list that will inevitably get slaugtered and even something like SA will massacre you if you like grens and recons.
Unless you play to piss off literally every other player in the vicinity by beeing as annoying as possible to play against respectivly your list.
------------------
Nr. 2. You run Melee spam of very specific spams. Ogryns with thunder hammers on ini 2 with 4+ Shield and a medicae. / Or mass cav 1 turn charge. S7 Ap3 and brutal 2 are surely nice T1 in your face (especially with feral warriors... when mixed with shotguns)
Nr. 3. You run what i call the meat grinder. Remember, all your normal and levy militia can take up to 3 squads for one troopslot meaning that technically you can throw done 18 50 man blocks of bajonett levies. for a measily 1980 pts. Returning on 4+ due to unending horde. Add in the force commander you are at 2080 pts. Now you go to your eliteslot and buy artillery. And or some shotguns. And so long you don't run into salamanders and their massed flamers, yeah you just chocke your enemy Alternative take, 40 mortar teams and 300 militia. And watch the despair of rolling that many direction dices oh and there are units that can carry a nuncio AND you got the option still for elite artillery AND heavy support artillery...
------------------
ergo sequitur: If you want to play your strengths, which you will need imo since the army doesn't do intermediate semi elite well or tacs, you either drown in piles of models and you do so to your opponent too or you run a very iffy skew, and pray that you get t1.
That is not good design, and i say that as someone that loves infantry artillery armies. Otoh, "elite " has far too little access to special weapons (seriously 1 in militia regardless of size? and the command cardre? nvm grens).
I'm not sure your "meat grinder" would pan out particularly well, remember those hordes are ld6 (5 if the sarge goes down) before night fight and fear, and if they fail a morale test they're flat out gone.
Sorry let me clarify, I don't think it will be awful, but I also don't think it'll be some broken game winning strat either. Definitely a fun option though
The point-tax HQ seems that costly because it’s your only source of moral ignoring. Giving him an iron halo, a servo skull, and the tyrant trait gives you a 3++ HQ who makes nearby squads auto-pass failed moral checks at the low cost of d6 models (so maybe 12 points worth of dudes).
While the army isn’t pants-on-head-slowed powerful, it looks like it doesn’t have to be weak. Combining provenances well can get get you hordes of WS4 Str5 on the charge with Shred for like 4ppm. While individual models are weak, those guys can chew through even WE despoilers on a pound-for-pound basis. At 10 dudes per terminator, they’re definitely a threat.
While it’s no IA13, it’s probably as close as we’re ever going to get.
I'm not sure your "meat grinder" would pan out particularly well, remember those hordes are ld6 (5 if the sarge goes down) before night fight and fear, and if they fail a morale test they're flat out gone.
Sorry let me clarify, I don't think it will be awful, but I also don't think it'll be some broken game winning strat either. Definitely a fun option though
Oh levy also aren't line!
Line is practically irrelevant though, it is only relevant for 2 out of 6 missions for the rest, troops are perfectly fine.
Then there's the fact that them dying completly is actually a benefit, because you then remove them as a casuality and for that you get to roll endless hordes faster.
And it's hardly fun, it's merely drowning the table in militia and creating a situation in which you can't get wiped but are basically using a pillow against a steel beam. For one or two matches it's certainly a list to play with and against but ehh..
Also the mortar list would just be pain to play against.
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morganfreeman wrote: The point-tax HQ seems that costly because it’s your only source of moral ignoring. Giving him an iron halo, a servo skull, and the tyrant trait gives you a 3++ HQ who makes nearby squads auto-pass failed moral checks at the low cost of d6 models (so maybe 12 points worth of dudes).
While the army isn’t pants-on-head-slowed powerful, it looks like it doesn’t have to be weak. Combining provenances well can get get you hordes of WS4 Str5 on the charge with Shred for like 4ppm. While individual models are weak, those guys can chew through even WE despoilers on a pound-for-pound basis. At 10 dudes per terminator, they’re definitely a threat.
While it’s no IA13, it’s probably as close as we’re ever going to get.
That is fair, but my question, why bother with a horde of infantry when you can T1 charge someone of the table.
meanwhile arty is basically either a pillow or doom incarnate depending upon enemy.
That is fair, but my question, why bother with a horde of infantry when you can T1 charge someone of the table.
meanwhile arty is basically either a pillow or doom incarnate depending upon enemy.
Board control, cheaper PPM, enough slots to take sufficient units to absorb losses, the ability to tough it out in prolonged combats (which the cav would be terrible at). Or straight up not liking horses in 40k.
My example was the first thing that came to mind for me. I’ve no doubt it’s not the only functional / decently strong list in there or that it couldn’t be enhanced by some cav units to help win combats.
SirDonlad wrote: Literally never saw a squat which wasn't in power armour apart from the trikes, bikes and sentinels.
What are the current models kitted out in?
If the militia having PA is weird then why are they able to take volkite weapons?
edit: or landraiders..
Mate, basically all squats had something else than powered armour except for the Hearthguards and their heavy exosuits. Most wore Guard-equivalent flak vests.
Current Votann troopers wear a 4+ save envirosuit, which is also very much not power armour.
As for volkites, they were a common design before and during the Old Night. It's a classic scifi death ray, just temperamental and a pain to maintain (which is an excellent reason to have it in the third-rate militias that are already raiding the bottom of the armoury). Everyone has access to volkites, from marines to Mechanicum to Auxilia to Militia. Similarly Land Raiders and Rhinos were a regular sight among the teeming masses of humanity before getting relegated to Astartes only, so finding some rusty pieces of kit still among the endlessly varied home armies of the galaxy is pretty fine and dandy.
That is fair, but my question, why bother with a horde of infantry when you can T1 charge someone of the table.
meanwhile arty is basically either a pillow or doom incarnate depending upon enemy.
Board control, cheaper PPM, enough slots to take sufficient units to absorb losses, the ability to tough it out in prolonged combats (which the cav would be terrible at). Or straight up not liking horses in 40k.
My example was the first thing that came to mind for me. I’ve no doubt it’s not the only functional / decently strong list in there or that it couldn’t be enhanced by some cav units to help win combats.
I never stated that, my point was more along the line the dex has a scale from one extreme to the other ( as it should considering what it is) and basically not having the sweetspot in a middle /mixture of units but rather seemingly forcing players to lean overly heavy in an archetype and that those i see that will work (and i think the mass horde list will work just as well probably better than cav rush) i can't imagine being fun to play with or against after the novelity wears off.
F.e. the cav list is basically a coinflip, you go first and you more or less can wipe an enemy army out because the lances are seriously mean. If you got to go second... welll OOF... The infantry list, i will be honest, even I that likes to mass hordes will stop at 300 models for an army to transport if i can't get a helper. Will it work better or more reliably ? yes, certainly the chance of outright losing is basically 0 or at most corresponding with the ammount of salamanders players in your local area. But nobody i know would carry more than 300 or even make more than 300 unless it's me.
The cav list otoh, is feasable to be created in timely fashion and quite likely depending upon if you can use alternatives or can't in your local store, quite a bit cheaper but after the 3rd 40 min game being decided and ended T1 hyperbolically i just don't see it as healthy.
Just as i don't think a 40 mortar list is healthy. Just one is only pinning the enemy in place , the other is just flat out wiping PA armies or getting wiped by PA armies.
SirDonlad wrote: Literally never saw a squat which wasn't in power armour apart from the trikes, bikes and sentinels.
What are the current models kitted out in?
If the militia having PA is weird then why are they able to take volkite weapons?
edit: or landraiders..
Mate, basically all squats had something else than powered armour except for the Hearthguards and their heavy exosuits. Most wore Guard-equivalent flak vests.
Current Votann troopers wear a 4+ save envirosuit, which is also very much not power armour.
As for volkites, they were a common design before and during the Old Night. It's a classic scifi death ray, just temperamental and a pain to maintain (which is an excellent reason to have it in the third-rate militias that are already raiding the bottom of the armoury). Everyone has access to volkites, from marines to Mechanicum to Auxilia to Militia. Similarly Land Raiders and Rhinos were a regular sight among the teeming masses of humanity before getting relegated to Astartes only, so finding some rusty pieces of kit still among the endlessly varied home armies of the galaxy is pretty fine and dandy.
Okay, well thanks for that; i get the feel it was that the circles i was in/around that bought/used the heavy assault models exclusively skewed my perception.
I maintain that it's not weird for a militia to have access to power armour in the way the original Cults & Militia list allows it for command groups and grenadier units.
SirDonlad wrote: Literally never saw a squat which wasn't in power armour apart from the trikes, bikes and sentinels.
What are the current models kitted out in?
If the militia having PA is weird then why are they able to take volkite weapons?
edit: or landraiders..
Mate, basically all squats had something else than powered armour except for the Hearthguards and their heavy exosuits. Most wore Guard-equivalent flak vests.
Current Votann troopers wear a 4+ save envirosuit, which is also very much not power armour.
As for volkites, they were a common design before and during the Old Night. It's a classic scifi death ray, just temperamental and a pain to maintain (which is an excellent reason to have it in the third-rate militias that are already raiding the bottom of the armoury). Everyone has access to volkites, from marines to Mechanicum to Auxilia to Militia. Similarly Land Raiders and Rhinos were a regular sight among the teeming masses of humanity before getting relegated to Astartes only, so finding some rusty pieces of kit still among the endlessly varied home armies of the galaxy is pretty fine and dandy.
Okay, well thanks for that; i get the feel it was that the circles i was in/around that bought/used the heavy assault models exclusively skewed my perception.
I maintain that it's not weird for a militia to have access to power armour in the way the original Cults & Militia list allows it for command groups and grenadier units.
To be fair, I don't see that as too weird either. There are plenty of civilisations out there that absolutely would have something in the right abstraction ballpark, like cyborg grenadiers or the like. Especially if it's contained to a small contingent within the list, so it wouldn't compromise the faction identity of "bunch of goons in t-shirts" in a world where other armies have it as standard issue
SirDonlad wrote: Literally never saw a squat which wasn't in power armour apart from the trikes, bikes and sentinels.
What are the current models kitted out in?
If the militia having PA is weird then why are they able to take volkite weapons?
edit: or landraiders..
Mate, basically all squats had something else than powered armour except for the Hearthguards and their heavy exosuits. Most wore Guard-equivalent flak vests.
Current Votann troopers wear a 4+ save envirosuit, which is also very much not power armour.
As for volkites, they were a common design before and during the Old Night. It's a classic scifi death ray, just temperamental and a pain to maintain (which is an excellent reason to have it in the third-rate militias that are already raiding the bottom of the armoury). Everyone has access to volkites, from marines to Mechanicum to Auxilia to Militia. Similarly Land Raiders and Rhinos were a regular sight among the teeming masses of humanity before getting relegated to Astartes only, so finding some rusty pieces of kit still among the endlessly varied home armies of the galaxy is pretty fine and dandy.
Okay, well thanks for that; i get the feel it was that the circles i was in/around that bought/used the heavy assault models exclusively skewed my perception.
I maintain that it's not weird for a militia to have access to power armour in the way the original Cults & Militia list allows it for command groups and grenadier units.
To be fair, I don't see that as too weird either. There are plenty of civilisations out there that absolutely would have something in the right abstraction ballpark, like cyborg grenadiers or the like. Especially if it's contained to a small contingent within the list, so it wouldn't compromise the faction identity of "bunch of goons in t-shirts" in a world where other armies have it as standard issue
This is a setting where a complete Imperial Knight Paladin blueprint can be spat out of your stc generator as the ideal solution to your logging needs...
Taking that concept further; whats stopping an STC machine spitting out a complete un-corrupted 'Man of Iron' blueprint for expendable troops?
I'm not sure your "meat grinder" would pan out particularly well, remember those hordes are ld6 (5 if the sarge goes down) before night fight and fear, and if they fail a morale test they're flat out gone.
Sorry let me clarify, I don't think it will be awful, but I also don't think it'll be some broken game winning strat either. Definitely a fun option though
Oh levy also aren't line!
Good thing Discipline Masters take them up to 8 with a re-roll.
Though I'll second the idea that I'd almost rather have them disappear and go into Endless Hordes as if you are leaning into that army, you are likely running out of space trying to shoehorn literally hundreds of figs into any available space.
The Warcry warbands of Darkoath Savagers, Spire Tyrants, Chaos Legionnaires, Horns of Hashut, and Untamed Beasts, along with some Chaos Marauders, would together make for a great Feral Warriors army. If they were taken as levies, then maybe each troop slot of three units could represent each different tribe. As said before, Accursed Cultists would make for great Tainted Flesh levies, as would Poxwalkers, Crypt Ghouls, Deathrattle Skeletons, Deadwalker Zombies, Tzaangors, Night Runners, Plague Monks, Clanrats, Khainite Shadowstalkers, Tarantulos Brood, and Melusai Blood Stalkers and Blood Sisters. Debased Rabble would be well-represented by regular Chaos Cultists, Scions of the Flame, Jade Obelisk, Corvus Cabal, the Unmade, Rotmire Creed, Bloodreavers, Kairic Acolytes, and Blissbarb Archers. Of course, all of the Warcry warbands would probably be good for Feral Warriors, and Chaos Marauders would work well for both.
SirDonlad wrote: This is a setting where a complete Imperial Knight Paladin blueprint can be spat out of your stc generator as the ideal solution to your logging needs...
Taking that concept further; whats stopping an STC machine spitting out a complete un-corrupted 'Man of Iron' blueprint for expendable troops?
1 - An STC machine of that calibre has never been discovered by the Imperium. The vast majority of remaining STCs are fragments of the wider database and even then these fragments are fragmented further into parts or sections of a blueprint.
2 - Men of Iron are massively illegal in the Imperium thanks to the Treaty of Mars that banned any and all production of Artificial Intelligence because of the war with said Men of Iron. It's a standing order that any and all A.I. discovered by any branch of the Imperium or Mechanicum is to be utterly eradicated. The ban on A.I. was one of the reasons the Dark Mechanicum formed as they felt it was needlessly oppressive.
Not landsknecht but that is, what you can do with the bulldogs and the great war germans are nice to boot with a bit of bit intermixing, notice all of this is still WIP:
Spoiler:
Pre Rust and wash basically only bulldog parts.
Overall i have yet to see a bad price/quality/quantity-kit from WGA.
Landsknecht Ogres are also great sculpts but bear in mind they have half less volume than GW Ogryn.
The later is a no matter, since we are talking militia. Maybee they are like my ogryn in darktide, lord button, just an oversized human that get's treated as a ogryn and pretends to be one.
That said, i may have been tempted to expand that army there.. with a bit of cav, some more HWT's and cadians that soon will have superior helmets to become grenadiers. Also, more fieldgun, because fieldgun.
Just saw those Bulldog Minis, which are fantastic models. But that’s not what made me go Wow. Well, not entirely.
But they did make me think of the truly excellent Genesis of the Daleks. Specifically the first episode’s opening scenes, where we see Kaleds and Thalls on the battlefield. Or at least their bodies.
And The Doctor notes the mix of gear. Some archaic, some high-tech. A sign of civilisations that have been at war for decades, maybe centuries.
And is that not a fantastic idea for a Militia force’s aesthetic, as well as even more of a Carte Blanche to mix up looks.
Conversion Free/Light example? For your Grenadiers, use Solar Auxilia. For your Great Unwashed? The Bulldog models or similar, perhaps with slightly more SciFi Passing weapons. That created a Feudal Look. The posh boys get Proper Equipment. The plebs get super basic equipment, because they’re expected, maybe required, to Die In Droves, so no point giving them fancy toys.
Just go for some kind of unifying paintscheme - even just a Shared Spot Colour.
But I’m also super impressed with the Militia List, as beyond some decal scraping, one can absolutely use the brand new Cadians if you wish.
Just saw those Bulldog Minis, which are fantastic models. But that’s not what made me go Wow. Well, not entirely.
But they did make me think of the truly excellent Genesis of the Daleks. Specifically the first episode’s opening scenes, where we see Kaleds and Thalls on the battlefield. Or at least their bodies.
And The Doctor notes the mix of gear. Some archaic, some high-tech. A sign of civilisations that have been at war for decades, maybe centuries.
And is that not a fantastic idea for a Militia force’s aesthetic, as well as even more of a Carte Blanche to mix up looks.
Conversion Free/Light example? For your Grenadiers, use Solar Auxilia. For your Great Unwashed? The Bulldog models or similar, perhaps with slightly more SciFi Passing weapons.
Just go for some kind of unifying paintscheme - even just a Shared Spot Colour.
It's not just the bulldogs. The frenchies of WGA are, if you like it more clean, probably the blend you describe even better and that blend of anachronistic mixture of equipment and armament is really close to the initial idea of 40k guard isn't it?
Ironically that mixture you described, despite never having seen an episode of dr who, is what i in general went for for that army.
i use a 21.cm Mörser for a medusa stand in from Takom as that thing is the inspiration behind the medus from FW and not nearly as organ sales inducing. It's a historical kit and may require some leaving out of valves but is easily 40kable
Spoiler:
And i used the common 100mm Skoda howitzer for rapiers and will use them as fieldguns ontop of the new fieldguns to represent the more ramshackle nature of the arsenal of this army.
Spoiler:
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lord_blackfang wrote: Plastic Grognard cavalry on raptors is in the pipeline too, isn't it
Sorry, should probably stop talking about Atlantic here
Advertiser plant !!!!!!
jokes aside, it's gw that isn't delivering, whilest WGA delivers, sans bases though for the guard. Also i get between 40 -60 models for a lower price than 10 GW cadians, even if i have to buy bases. And the best part, they are perfectly fine to be kitbashed into one another if you are even a slightly advanced hobbiest. Which is what i personally recomend.
I never stated that, my point was more along the line the dex has a scale from one extreme to the other ( as it should considering what it is) and basically not having the sweetspot in a middle /mixture of units but rather seemingly forcing players to lean overly heavy in an archetype and that those i see that will work (and i think the mass horde list will work just as well probably better than cav rush) i can't imagine being fun to play with or against after the novelity wears off.
Oh yeah, that's totally true. But I also don't inherently think that's a problem. I'm okay with armies having various ways they're "supposed to play" so long as they're not mono list, especially in a game which is more focused on narrative rather than balls-to-the-wall-competitiveness.
That said it could definitely be a challenge. However HH being more historical than competitive wargame offers some opportunities to cut corners. Asking your opponent if you can measure movement for the first couple of guys in your units, then quickly place everyone else behind them, can make movement much faster. I was actually working on a Renegades list for IA13 back in 7th edition, which would've had something to the tune of 150-200 "chaff" infantry. My plan was to just use movement trays to speed the process up, only taking dudes off when they got into sticky terrain situations / charged in to actually assault.
So while it's not as simple as moving around 30 marines and 2300 points of tanks, some discussion (with a player who's not TFG) and pre-planning can make everyone's life a lot easier.
Also. What're these bulldogs people are referencing? I'm not familiar but I'd love to take a peak.
I have been lurking some discussions in my club's forum, from my mates playing WHH, seen some games IRL too. Horus Heresy looks like a good game with depth. I liked the 7th edition of W40k (played in gentleman's agreements mode, no formations shenanigans). Completely fed up from W40k 9th edition since last year, I have been waiting for a book depicting the proto-Astra-Militarum since the launch of current edition of Horus Heresy. Then a book for imperial forces was out, but without the militia imperialis, contrary to the V1 of the game. The studio announced a PDF, which is not as exciting, but hey why not... Then I waited, waited still. Rumors of a book to depict the militia, but no, nothing happens. After a year waiting, the PDF drops at last. I eagerly read it, the old V1 militia imperial codex in mind, my little collection of Astra Militarum miniatures ready to hit the table.
I can't express how deep is my disappointment.
Loads of units absent from the list. An assassine morale rule for the infantry. All tanks take heavy damage on glancing hits. Points hikes here and there, almost everything seems bad on performance/cost. No artillery tanks, no Carnodon, no Aurox etc... no LRBT squadrons, weak firepower. Almost no options on regular infantry except the vaguely different rifles I don't care about. The Imperialis Militia PDF codex looks heavily constrained for building a list with, and unfun to play. Basically looks like : You are comically weak, you remove loads of models from the table, the Space Marine automatically wins.
How are we supposed to play this codex with a decent chance to put a fight ?
I have been lurking some discussions in my club's forum, from my mates playing WHH, seen some games IRL too. Horus Heresy looks like a good game with depth. I liked the 7th edition of W40k (played in gentleman's agreements mode, no formations shenanigans). Completely fed up from W40k 9th edition since last year, I have been waiting for a book depicting the proto-Astra-Militarum since the launch of current edition of Horus Heresy. Then a book for imperial forces was out, but without the militia imperialis, contrary to the V1 of the game. The studio announced a PDF, which is not as exciting, but hey why not... Then I waited, waited still. Rumors of a book to depict the militia, but no, nothing happens. After a year waiting, the PDF drops at last. I eagerly read it, the old V1 militia imperial codex in mind, my little collection of Astra Militarum miniatures ready to hit the table.
I can't express how deep is my disappointment.
Loads of units absent from the list. An assassine morale rule for the infantry. All tanks take heavy damage on glancing hits. Points hikes here and there, almost everything seems bad on performance/cost. No artillery tanks, no Carnodon, no Aurox etc... no LRBT squadrons, weak firepower. Almost no options on regular infantry except the vaguely different rifles I don't care about. The Imperialis Militia PDF codex looks heavily constrained for building a list with, and unfun to play. Basically looks like : You are comically weak, you remove loads of models from the table, the Space Marine automatically wins.
How are we supposed to play this codex with a decent chance to put a fight ?
The key is to look at the provenances and then lean in, don't go half measures, this is not guard and i may well have fallen into this thought pattern aswell before.
Well. There are actually some things in there that will atleast make marines cry if they are one of the PA heavier legions.
F.e. Cav with lances or bikers with lances? Ogryn conscripts. both of these are i say more than workable enough depending upon how you proceed with provenances and how well you manouvre.
Infantry, surprisingly can be made to be some of the most durable things in this game on a per point basis. (unending horde + kinfolk. T4 2 pts models and whole squads coming back half the time is a special kind of absurd, not because it can't be destroyed but rather it won't be unless you manouvre really badly without an exorbitant ammount of firepower.)
also also, be happy that you didn't get the arty tanks, those are majorly bad priced, the normal heavy versions that the milita has are far superior. (afterall why bother with 1 legion scorpious, when you can get 1 earthshaker and a fieldgun for the same price. Or 3 for a singular bombard. And don't even bother with SA, their tank artillery is basically 1 earthshaker for 200 pts --> which is 2 earthshakers and a fieldgun
Tanks are actually unironically better from Milita (or actually even better than for marines or anyone else really) than they are for SA, not the malcador though, because he loses independent gunners and armor but the humble leman?
. for one you lose flanking attack on some chasis that the SA have, sucks, but when you are 30/ 15 pts cheaper than the "cheap" leman russ and don't give up killpoints and 45/30 on the expensive versions (the versions with the big mean guns) then those two things are actually hillarious.
Add to that, that you can field 6/ HS slot, and get an additional 2 HS slots with industrial stronghold... if you like tanks then milita has you more than covered, also but glancing are full hits. Yeah, that is one result on a D6, and let's not beat around the bush, the same things that will get used against your leman russes will anyways outright wipe them regardless if you have worse armor and between getting glanced to death is irrelevant, but atleast with militia those tank losses don't count for the victory of your opponents, nor are you saddled with the rather horrendous tercio cohesionary deployment rules.Oh and for good measure, you can make your whole army mini techmarines with kinfolk once again,
Sure, a combined arms force a la IG, nope this isn't that. You can come close with certain combinations but this isn't the strength of this list, and the more i look at it the more i think if they drop some units prices and grant us more access to special weapons then this will be a rather strong list actualy.
Further there are some other funny things that you could do with AL as a main detachment and militia as a minor one with boosts to accuracy or saboteurs etc just fwiw.
I have been lurking some discussions in my club's forum, from my mates playing WHH, seen some games IRL too. Horus Heresy looks like a good game with depth. I liked the 7th edition of W40k (played in gentleman's agreements mode, no formations shenanigans). Completely fed up from W40k 9th edition since last year, I have been waiting for a book depicting the proto-Astra-Militarum since the launch of current edition of Horus Heresy. Then a book for imperial forces was out, but without the militia imperialis, contrary to the V1 of the game. The studio announced a PDF, which is not as exciting, but hey why not... Then I waited, waited still. Rumors of a book to depict the militia, but no, nothing happens. After a year waiting, the PDF drops at last. I eagerly read it, the old V1 militia imperial codex in mind, my little collection of Astra Militarum miniatures ready to hit the table.
I can't express how deep is my disappointment.
Loads of units absent from the list. An assassine morale rule for the infantry. All tanks take heavy damage on glancing hits. Points hikes here and there, almost everything seems bad on performance/cost. No artillery tanks, no Carnodon, no Aurox etc... no LRBT squadrons, weak firepower. Almost no options on regular infantry except the vaguely different rifles I don't care about. The Imperialis Militia PDF codex looks heavily constrained for building a list with, and unfun to play. Basically looks like : You are comically weak, you remove loads of models from the table, the Space Marine automatically wins.
How are we supposed to play this codex with a decent chance to put a fight ?
Spoiler:
The key is to look at the provenances and then lean in, don't go half measures, this is not guard and i may well have fallen into this thought pattern aswell before.
Well. There are actually some things in there that will atleast make marines cry if they are one of the PA heavier legions.
F.e. Cav with lances or bikers with lances? Ogryn conscripts. both of these are i say more than workable enough depending upon how you proceed with provenances and how well you manouvre.
Infantry, surprisingly can be made to be some of the most durable things in this game on a per point basis. (unending horde + kinfolk. T4 2 pts models and whole squads coming back half the time is a special kind of absurd, not because it can't be destroyed but rather it won't be unless you manouvre really badly without an exorbitant ammount of firepower.)
also also, be happy that you didn't get the arty tanks, those are majorly bad priced, the normal heavy versions that the milita has are far superior. (afterall why bother with 1 legion scorpious, when you can get 1 earthshaker and a fieldgun for the same price. Or 3 for a singular bombard. And don't even bother with SA, their tank artillery is basically 1 earthshaker for 200 pts --> which is 2 earthshakers and a fieldgun
Tanks are actually unironically better from Milita (or actually even better than for marines or anyone else really) than they are for SA, not the malcador though, because he loses independent gunners and armor but the humble leman?
. for one you lose flanking attack on some chasis that the SA have, sucks, but when you are 30/ 15 pts cheaper than the "cheap" leman russ and don't give up killpoints and 45/30 on the expensive versions (the versions with the big mean guns) then those two things are actually hillarious.
Add to that, that you can field 6/ HS slot, and get an additional 2 HS slots with industrial stronghold... if you like tanks then milita has you more than covered, also but glancing are full hits. Yeah, that is one result on a D6, and let's not beat around the bush, the same things that will get used against your leman russes will anyways outright wipe them regardless if you have worse armor and between getting glanced to death is irrelevant, but atleast with militia those tank losses don't count for the victory of your opponents, nor are you saddled with the rather horrendous tercio cohesionary deployment rules.Oh and for good measure, you can make your whole army mini techmarines with kinfolk once again,
Sure, a combined arms force a la IG, nope this isn't that. You can come close with certain combinations but this isn't the strength of this list, and the more i look at it the more i think if they drop some units prices and grant us more access to special weapons then this will be a rather strong list actualy.
Further there are some other funny things that you could do with AL as a main detachment and militia as a minor one with boosts to accuracy or saboteurs etc just fwiw.
Snip.
^ Basically this.
Militia / Cults / What have you isn't built to be a balanced combined-arms army. You're meant to pick complimentary provenances and then lean in. Hard. It has multiple builds which are quite powerful in the current HH climate. Cheap throw-away tank spam, infantry mass melee, mass respawning infantry, and cavalry spam alpha-strike are all viably strong and don't even need to define your list. 500 levies - more than anyone would ever want to field in any version of reality - is literally 1,000 points; or 1/3rd of a standard army.
That said, the army is definitely going to be insanely expensive to play. Any list is probably bringing several hundred cannon fodder dudes at the bare minimum. So while it's far from unplayable garbage, it's definitely going to be a chore to put a list together.
I have been lurking some discussions in my club's forum, from my mates playing WHH, seen some games IRL too. Horus Heresy looks like a good game with depth. I liked the 7th edition of W40k (played in gentleman's agreements mode, no formations shenanigans). Completely fed up from W40k 9th edition since last year, I have been waiting for a book depicting the proto-Astra-Militarum since the launch of current edition of Horus Heresy. Then a book for imperial forces was out, but without the militia imperialis, contrary to the V1 of the game. The studio announced a PDF, which is not as exciting, but hey why not... Then I waited, waited still. Rumors of a book to depict the militia, but no, nothing happens. After a year waiting, the PDF drops at last. I eagerly read it, the old V1 militia imperial codex in mind, my little collection of Astra Militarum miniatures ready to hit the table.
I can't express how deep is my disappointment.
Loads of units absent from the list. An assassine morale rule for the infantry. All tanks take heavy damage on glancing hits. Points hikes here and there, almost everything seems bad on performance/cost. No artillery tanks, no Carnodon, no Aurox etc... no LRBT squadrons, weak firepower. Almost no options on regular infantry except the vaguely different rifles I don't care about. The Imperialis Militia PDF codex looks heavily constrained for building a list with, and unfun to play. Basically looks like : You are comically weak, you remove loads of models from the table, the Space Marine automatically wins.
How are we supposed to play this codex with a decent chance to put a fight ?
Spoiler:
The key is to look at the provenances and then lean in, don't go half measures, this is not guard and i may well have fallen into this thought pattern aswell before.
Well. There are actually some things in there that will atleast make marines cry if they are one of the PA heavier legions.
F.e. Cav with lances or bikers with lances? Ogryn conscripts. both of these are i say more than workable enough depending upon how you proceed with provenances and how well you manouvre.
Infantry, surprisingly can be made to be some of the most durable things in this game on a per point basis. (unending horde + kinfolk. T4 2 pts models and whole squads coming back half the time is a special kind of absurd, not because it can't be destroyed but rather it won't be unless you manouvre really badly without an exorbitant ammount of firepower.)
also also, be happy that you didn't get the arty tanks, those are majorly bad priced, the normal heavy versions that the milita has are far superior. (afterall why bother with 1 legion scorpious, when you can get 1 earthshaker and a fieldgun for the same price. Or 3 for a singular bombard. And don't even bother with SA, their tank artillery is basically 1 earthshaker for 200 pts --> which is 2 earthshakers and a fieldgun
Tanks are actually unironically better from Milita (or actually even better than for marines or anyone else really) than they are for SA, not the malcador though, because he loses independent gunners and armor but the humble leman?
. for one you lose flanking attack on some chasis that the SA have, sucks, but when you are 30/ 15 pts cheaper than the "cheap" leman russ and don't give up killpoints and 45/30 on the expensive versions (the versions with the big mean guns) then those two things are actually hillarious.
Add to that, that you can field 6/ HS slot, and get an additional 2 HS slots with industrial stronghold... if you like tanks then milita has you more than covered, also but glancing are full hits. Yeah, that is one result on a D6, and let's not beat around the bush, the same things that will get used against your leman russes will anyways outright wipe them regardless if you have worse armor and between getting glanced to death is irrelevant, but atleast with militia those tank losses don't count for the victory of your opponents, nor are you saddled with the rather horrendous tercio cohesionary deployment rules.Oh and for good measure, you can make your whole army mini techmarines with kinfolk once again,
Sure, a combined arms force a la IG, nope this isn't that. You can come close with certain combinations but this isn't the strength of this list, and the more i look at it the more i think if they drop some units prices and grant us more access to special weapons then this will be a rather strong list actualy.
Further there are some other funny things that you could do with AL as a main detachment and militia as a minor one with boosts to accuracy or saboteurs etc just fwiw.
Snip.
^ Basically this.
Militia / Cults / What have you isn't built to be a balanced combined-arms army. You're meant to pick complimentary provenances and then lean in. Hard. It has multiple builds which are quite powerful in the current HH climate. Cheap throw-away tank spam, infantry mass melee, mass respawning infantry, and cavalry spam alpha-strike are all viably strong and don't even need to define your list. 500 levies - more than anyone would ever want to field in any version of reality - is literally 1,000 points; or 1/3rd of a standard army.
That said, the army is definitely going to be insanely expensive to play. Any list is probably bringing several hundred cannon fodder dudes at the bare minimum. So while it's far from unplayable garbage, it's definitely going to be a chore to put a list together.
Agreed. There comes a point where just dipping the buggers in woodstain becomes tempting.
But at the same time, yes. The face that 'a full infantry battalion, an attached tank company and a regimental command baneblade' is a fairly realistic theme for your army is a scary prospect.
Hate to break it to you folks, Militia were always expensive unless you already had a sizeable collection of Guard or Cultists, which was kind of the point for introducing the list in the first place.
Gert wrote: Hate to break it to you folks, Militia were always expensive unless you already had a sizeable collection of Guard or Cultists, which was kind of the point for introducing the list in the first place.
or you find someone that makes guard equivalent infantry for an actually acceptable price unlike GW?
Which doesn't account for tanks, planes, artillery, or units like Ogryns.
Unless the army is being run as an allied army, even a 2k list is gonna set you back a fair whack of cash.
I do agree that the best choices are 3rd parties, with Wargames Atlantic and Historicals being the best IMO. The former is usually about £25 for 24 models and the latter is always cheaper than GW, for example, the Warlord Games Winter Soviets is £40.50 for 40 models.
Gert wrote: Which doesn't account for tanks, planes, artillery, or units like Ogryns.
Unless the army is being run as an allied army, even a 2k list is gonna set you back a fair whack of cash.
I do agree that the best choices are 3rd parties, with Wargames Atlantic and Historicals being the best IMO. The former is usually about £25 for 24 models and the latter is always cheaper than GW, for example, the Warlord Games Winter Soviets is £40.50 for 40 models.
For a Napoleonic flair, Perry Miniatures Austrian Infantry are £22 for 48 models, which is almost a whole Levy Squad (or two Infantry Squads). Pretty quick and easy to paint up with Contrast paints too.
Okay, so idea that I'm not sure works as per rules.
Saul's warlord trait specifies "friendly" units within 12" gain feerless if he fufill's some conditions. Would Solar units allied in (I forget which level of allies they are) be considered friendly?
If so spending 200 points on 100 levy models would be rather funny. A few squads of 20 or 30 hovering around Saul, Just throw them at big annoying things like dreads. "Cool your dread will win combat every turn but it'll take 6 or so rounds to kill 60 points worth of bodies." Hell even a primarch would struggle to make his points back caving skulls in, letting you go after other units and tip the battle to your favour.
So I got sidetracked by the Militia...I pulled out some sprues of Bullgryn and Death Korps I had, and started toying with a Militia army based on the Death Korps. The Bulgryn look awesome with clubs and boarding shields, and the DK look suitably 'historic' and would be easy to add to other Guard kits such as the support weapons, Sentinel etc. The problem is (apart from the inherent stupidity of starting a new Heresy army) that I really don't like the Leman Russ kit, and the Malcador is resin, so I don't know what to do about their tanks.
Gir Spirit Bane wrote: My mate pointed out to me that the one province which makes you sworn brothers with Ad mech nd combine it with another of your choice and BOOM -
Meaningful use of plastic skitarri
Nice one, those must be one of the cheapest GW sprues on ebay since they're always stuffing them in every AdMecg bundle box.
Snord wrote: So I got sidetracked by the Militia...I pulled out some sprues of Bullgryn and Death Korps I had, and started toying with a Militia army based on the Death Korps. The Bulgryn look awesome with clubs and boarding shields, and the DK look suitably 'historic' and would be easy to add to other Guard kits such as the support weapons, Sentinel etc. The problem is (apart from the inherent stupidity of starting a new Heresy army) that I really don't like the Leman Russ kit, and the Malcador is resin, so I don't know what to do about their tanks.
These guys have really focused on HH, and always play games with high-quality armies. They don't pretend to be hard-core competitive players, and I find their videos very enjoyable. Without spoiling the outcome, it is clear from an early stage of the game that the Militia are difficult to use.
These guys have really focused on HH, and always play games with high-quality armies. They don't pretend to be hard-core competitive players, and I find their videos very enjoyable. Without spoiling the outcome, it is clear from an early stage of the game that the Militia are difficult to use.
I think it very much shows the limitations of lancer units. WS3 combined with basically-only-one-attack-ever means that you're looking at surprisingly low damage. In fact you're probably better off taking chainaxes and getting 3 s4 shred attacks - the feral warriors provenance seems pretty much a go to for cavalry because ws4 on the charge is a big deal.
I doubt they're worth 80% a Marine... or indeed 4 2-point Levy. Good luck painting 1000 dudes tho 
These are inducted subhumans, not Leagues of Votann.
