I envision a soft removal over time. With both rules being slowly pulled out, and no new models. With an occasional primaris rules better, then regular marine rules. But with marines and rules writing GW the problem is that they over value certain stats (wounds for example) and under value other .
If there were primaris venguard in 9th, people would have been buying them a lot. Instead they bought recasts, did kit bashes and sang guard/wolf guard.
I don't think Firstborn will be dropped in 10th edition just yet. And even if/when they will be dropped, you will still be able to use your firstborn models as "counts as" Primaris. GW is already giving us signs that the distinction between Primaris and firstborn is getting more blurry (Primaris can even use Drop Pods in 10th ed). I wouldn't worry about it too much.
I'm not sure they'll ever fade away. The speeders and tanks are too different. I can see the infantry going that way once intercessors get a kit that allows special / heavy.
At Warhammer Fest there was a Q&A and people asked about phasing out First Born Marines.
The answer was that they would be over time, and generally based on sales. So things that continue to sell are unlikely to go away anytime soon. The Tactical Squad was called out as something that is still a high seller.
That is a bit annoying. I’m not a fan of gigantic models on 40mm bases making the majority of an army. Even 32mm is too big. And also the lore just seems too forced as an excuse to make big models.
Maybe I should have gone with guards. :S
Or Chaos Space marines. Even though they are pretty much Primaris-sized already, right? (Can someone confirm?) But they do have more units with smaller models like cultists…
Asking this when inept group of monkeys writing SM rules spent last six years doing nothing but sabotaging primaris and handing out insane, unnecessary, and needless buffs to uglysquattus side of Codex (one of which, W2 gak, was so horribly ill-thought it shattered game balance into tiny pieces and forced GW to reboot it early in 10th) takes not just one, but the mountain of cakes
Yes, sure, old, ugly models will no longer be a thing, that rule sabotage thing was uh, just total accident, the mountain of bad-anatomy pointlessly duplicating existing SM range mound of models GW just released for HH is uh, a fata morgana, and the fact primaris, according to rule previews, are still being sabotaged and don't even have full frakking rules for the bits they do have on sprues to compete with old gak means the squats will be squatted. Howgh!
Irbis wrote: Asking this when inept group of monkeys writing SM rules spent last six years doing nothing but sabotaging primaris and handing out insane, unnecessary, and needless buffs to uglysquattus side of Codex (one of which, W2 gak, was so horribly ill-thought it shattered game balance into tiny pieces and forced GW to reboot it early in 10th) takes not just one, but the mountain of cakes
Yes, sure, old, ugly models will no longer be a thing, that rule sabotage thing was uh, just total accident, the mountain of bad-anatomy pointlessly duplicating existing SM range mound of models GW just released for HH is uh, a fata morgana, and the fact primaris, according to rule previews, are still being sabotaged and don't even have full frakking rules for the bits they do have on sprues to compete with old gak means the squats will be squatted. Howgh!
I could not quite understand that. Can you explain what you mean minus the (I assume) WH40K-lingo/slang. I'm a noob.
The distinction between primaris and firstborn will be dropped, new kits will be primaris sized, and over time the older kits will vanish. Playing with first born in the future will be no different from using RT era models now- they will just look comparatively small compared to other models on the table.
Irbis wrote: Asking this when inept group of monkeys writing SM rules spent last six years doing nothing but sabotaging primaris and handing out insane, unnecessary, and needless buffs to uglysquattus side of Codex (one of which, W2 gak, was so horribly ill-thought it shattered game balance into tiny pieces and forced GW to reboot it early in 10th) takes not just one, but the mountain of cakes
Yes, sure, old, ugly models will no longer be a thing, that rule sabotage thing was uh, just total accident, the mountain of bad-anatomy pointlessly duplicating existing SM range mound of models GW just released for HH is uh, a fata morgana, and the fact primaris, according to rule previews, are still being sabotaged and don't even have full frakking rules for the bits they do have on sprues to compete with old gak means the squats will be squatted. Howgh!
JamesY wrote: The distinction between primaris and firstborn will be dropped, new kits will be primaris sized, and over time the older kits will vanish. Playing with first born in the future will be no different from using RT era models now- they will just look comparatively small compared to other models on the table.
That's not so bad I guess. Although it does make me wonder, why all the far-fetched, silly and confusing lore to justify it? Why not just make the new models the bigger scale? That would have been perfect (on 32mm bases, not 40mm).
Anyway, I'm happy with that as long as they only look comparatively small compared to other space-marine models. I'm very much anti big-miniatures in games (kind of defeats the point for the sake of flashy box art), but truth-be told, the old space marine models are a little small compared to what they should be if they're all 7-feet tall and dressed in power-armour (which would make them closer to 7.5 feet tall). The Primaris marines are closer to that proportion compared to guards, for example.
I'm a little bit worried that somewhere down the track they'll be like, "hey, these Primaris are supposed to be 8-feet tall, so we're upsizing the models and putting them all on 50mm bases". That would suck giant balls. And I'd be extremely annoyed if they started making normal-human-sized models like guards on 32mm bases and jumbo-sized. Which could definitely happen considering they already did it with BloodBowl. Even the halflings are on 32mm bases.
Anyway ... question considering you are painting a Sons of Horus army: Are the latest Chaos Space Marine models primaris sized or regular-space-marine sized? I'm assuming Primaris-sized because from the pictures it looks like they're on 40mm bases, but it can be hard to tell.
Voss wrote: (recent) Chaos Marines are a bit in between.
Not primaris sized, but bigger than the prior iteration of 40k marines.
Which, in my humble noob opinion, is exactly what they should have done with space marines. Just kept them on 32mm bases.
Voss wrote: Though to give you some bad news, there are some IG characters on 32 mm bases.
I don't mind that if it's for some kind of game-mechanic reason. It's a powerful character that "takes up a lot of space" on the battlefield or whatever. Otherwise it's pointless.
Probably the most egregious base is the Sisters of Battle Hospitaller, who's hogging a 50mm base for herself and a corpse.
That does seem a little ridiculous. Unless there's a gameplay reason.
Why on earth do they want to hog so much table-space in a miniature game where table space is at a premium? I don't get it. Maybe they want them to look more like "toys" to attract younger kids.
@ the pig faced orc I don't know why they didn't just say 'we can easily make marines to the scale that they are supposed to be, now, so that's what we are going to do.' Which imo is what they should have done. But they did, and the benefit I suppose is that they then didn't feel compelled to repeat the cycle of just updating old kits (as we are seeing now with the terminators and sternguard) but actually made whole new units. However people may feel about individual kits, breaking the stagnation was definitely a good thing.
The chaos space marines are interesting; the baseline csm are just a little shorter than a primaris marine. The khorne berzerkers are the same height, but their postures mask this as most of them are running, the ones that aren't are slouched, so they don't look it even though they are. I don't have any of the other new kits to be able to say- I'd be interested to see a havoc beside a primaris. The 'zerker kit is the most recent, though. So perhaps a sign that that will be the standard height for marines now.
Why on earth do they want to hog so much table-space in a miniature game where table space is at a premium? I don't get it. Maybe they want them to look more like "toys" to attract younger kids.
Because GW sells miniatures first. If the designers think that a bigger base is better because it allows them to give the model a cool pose, a tactical rock or to put a corpse on it, they do it. They absolutely do not care about the rules at all. We already had interviews from previous employees of GW in which they stated that GW knows that 90% of the miniatures sold will never see a single table.
Also, it is a well known fact that the rules and lore writers do not talk to the designers not because they don't want to, but because GW forbids it for security reason. They make up the rules and the lore when a new miniature is released.
Example : Skitariis have robotic legs. Lore reasons : Skitariis are marching a lot and they don't have transports (when Ad Mech was released they didn't have transports) and they need super strong legs. A couple of years later, GW releases several transports for the Ad Mech. The lore writers had absolutely no fething idea that GW was planning to release transports later. That was from an interview on Goonhammer.
That is why some units can have a bigger Engagement Range than normal. Because if the writers don't give the unit such a rule, the unit cannot properly function on the table because of it's unusual base size and number of models.
Why on earth do they want to hog so much table-space in a miniature game where table space is at a premium? I don't get it. Maybe they want them to look more like "toys" to attract younger kids.
Because GW sells miniatures first. If the designers think that a bigger base is better because it allows them to give the model a cool pose, a tactical rock or to put a corpse on it, they do it. They absolutely do not care about the rules at all. We already had interviews from previous employees of GW in which they stated that GW knows that 90% of the miniatures sold will never see a single table.
Also, it is a well known fact that the rules and lore writers do not talk to the designers not because they don't want to, but because GW forbids it for security reason. They make up the rules and the lore when a new miniature is released.
Example : Skitariis have robotic legs. Lore reasons : Skitariis are marching a lot and they don't have transports (when Ad Mech was released they didn't have transports) and they need super strong legs. A couple of years later, GW releases several transports for the Ad Mech. The lore writers had absolutely no fething idea that GW was planning to release transports later. That was from an interview on Goonhammer.
That is why some units can have a bigger Engagement Range than normal. Because if the writers don't give the unit such a rule, the unit cannot properly function on the table because of it's unusual base size and number of models.
... so, basically, they want them to look more like toys to attract, well, maybe not "younger kids", but "sales".
It's a sad state. I remember Games Workshop way back before it was even Games Workshop. When it was two dudes writing Fighting Fantasy game-books. And even after that, well into the 40K era, they were proper gamers, it was really all about making a fun, creative game. 2nd Edition BloodBowl nailed it (not the new "Second Season Edition"), the proper 2nd edition from 1989 or whenever it was released. Such a good miniature game. People wanted to play the game first - buying miniatures was a means to an end.
It's dissapointing that it's become all about hawking plastic.
JamesY wrote: The distinction between primaris and firstborn will be dropped, new kits will be primaris sized, and over time the older kits will vanish. Playing with first born in the future will be no different from using RT era models now- they will just look comparatively small compared to other models on the table.
One major difference is that the original RT kits still had rules. Even now the RT kits are still fieldable as what they were intended to be. Tactical Squads, Assault Squads, Devastators, Rhinos, Predators, Land Raiders never went away, they just got a new look.
Moving to Primaris threatens to erase many of those original units. That's very different than the move in the early 90s to update Marines to Mk.VII
Irbis wrote:Asking this when inept group of monkeys writing SM rules spent last six years doing nothing but sabotaging primaris and handing out insane, unnecessary, and needless buffs to uglysquattus side of Codex (one of which, W2 gak, was so horribly ill-thought it shattered game balance into tiny pieces and forced GW to reboot it early in 10th) takes not just one, but the mountain of cakes
Yes, sure, old, ugly models will no longer be a thing, that rule sabotage thing was uh, just total accident, the mountain of bad-anatomy pointlessly duplicating existing SM range mound of models GW just released for HH is uh, a fata morgana, and the fact primaris, according to rule previews, are still being sabotaged and don't even have full frakking rules for the bits they do have on sprues to compete with old gak means the squats will be squatted. Howgh!
Good lord, go outside.
The Pig-Faced Orc wrote:That's not so bad I guess. Although it does make me wonder, why all the far-fetched, silly and confusing lore to justify it? Why not just make the new models the bigger scale? That would have been perfect (on 32mm bases, not 40mm)....
It's a couple of things.
For one thing, there was a known problem that Firstborn with their flexibility could often be 'noob traps'. It wasn't uncommon to see a new player outfit their Tactical Squad with lascannon, meltagun, and power fist, and the result was a squad with all the shiny bells and whistles that was next to useless on the tabletop and presented a bunch of different wargear bits for the new player to keep track of. Space Marines are the intro to the game for most players; the designers had an opportunity to redesign how the Space Marine line functions with single-purpose, universally-equipped squads more akin to Aspect Warriors. It's simpler, and harder to accidentally screw up by not knowing how the game works.
Also, the Marine line was already huge. Adding on a whole new line of new choices would be rapidly getting unwieldy. Instead GW chose to segregate them into a new line. When you go into shops you'll generally see Primaris stuff now as a standalone army, theoretically compatible with Firstborn but with some weird interactions on the tabletop that work against it (like Primaris not being able to ride in Rhinos). There's a hard line between the old stuff and the new stuff.
And more cynically, by launching it as a new range rather than redesigns of old models, GW got a lot of players to start new armies or re-buy old ones. New and different is more exciting than resculpts, at least when the current sculpts aren't that old or outdated.
8th Ed was a re-launch of the game and an opportunity to start fresh. I've heard unconfirmed rumors that Marines in 8th were originally intended to be Primaris-only, actually, and that GW walked it back fairly late in development. As time goes on we're seeing Primaris gradually integrated with Firstborn in terms of rules, so I suspect what we're going to see in the future is less-played Firstborn units gradually shifted to Legends with each new book.
JamesY wrote: The distinction between primaris and firstborn will be dropped, new kits will be primaris sized, and over time the older kits will vanish. Playing with first born in the future will be no different from using RT era models now- they will just look comparatively small compared to other models on the table.
For one thing, there was a known problem that Firstborn with their flexibility could often be 'noob traps'. It wasn't uncommon to see a new player outfit their Tactical Squad with lascannon, meltagun, and power fist, and the result was a squad with all the shiny bells and whistles that was next to useless on the tabletop and presented a bunch of different wargear bits for the new player to keep track of. Space Marines are the intro to the game for most players; the designers had an opportunity to redesign how the Space Marine line functions with single-purpose, universally-equipped squads more akin to Aspect Warriors. It's simpler, and harder to accidentally screw up by not knowing how the game works.
Arguably the thing that f***ed up noobs the most was not specifically the mixed-weapon squad, but the fact that they couldn't split fire to make the best use of those weapons. This innately made the Tactical Squad one of the more difficult units to use. Ironically/amusingly, 8th edition fixed that problem. But the distaste for Tacticals had been long ingrained by that point.
I stand by my Tacticals though. The Tactical Squad is my spirit animal.
Why on earth do they want to hog so much table-space in a miniature game where table space is at a premium? I don't get it. Maybe they want them to look more like "toys" to attract younger kids.
Because GW sells miniatures first. If the designers think that a bigger base is better because it allows them to give the model a cool pose, a tactical rock or to put a corpse on it, they do it. They absolutely do not care about the rules at all. We already had interviews from previous employees of GW in which they stated that GW knows that 90% of the miniatures sold will never see a single table.
Also, it is a well known fact that the rules and lore writers do not talk to the designers not because they don't want to, but because GW forbids it for security reason. They make up the rules and the lore when a new miniature is released.
Example : Skitariis have robotic legs. Lore reasons : Skitariis are marching a lot and they don't have transports (when Ad Mech was released they didn't have transports) and they need super strong legs. A couple of years later, GW releases several transports for the Ad Mech. The lore writers had absolutely no fething idea that GW was planning to release transports later. That was from an interview on Goonhammer.
That is why some units can have a bigger Engagement Range than normal. Because if the writers don't give the unit such a rule, the unit cannot properly function on the table because of it's unusual base size and number of models.
... so, basically, they want them to look more like toys to attract, well, maybe not "younger kids", but "sales".
It's a sad state. I remember Games Workshop way back before it was even Games Workshop. When it was two dudes writing Fighting Fantasy game-books. And even after that, well into the 40K era, they were proper gamers, it was really all about making a fun, creative game. 2nd Edition BloodBowl nailed it (not the new "Second Season Edition", the proper 2nd edition from 1989 or whenever it was released. Such a good miniature game. People wanted to play the game first - buying miniatures was a means to an end.
It's dissapointing that it's become all about hawking plastic.
People interested solely into the lore >>>>> people interested in painting ≥>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people who actually plays the game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people who participates in the compétitive scene.
JamesY wrote: The distinction between primaris and firstborn will be dropped, new kits will be primaris sized, and over time the older kits will vanish. Playing with first born in the future will be no different from using RT era models now- they will just look comparatively small compared to other models on the table.
One major difference is that the original RT kits still had rules. Even now the RT kits are still fieldable as what they were intended to be. Tactical Squads, Assault Squads, Devastators, Rhinos, Predators, Land Raiders never went away, they just got a new look.
Moving to Primaris threatens to erase many of those original units. That's very different than the move in the early 90s to update Marines to Mk.VII
There isn't a difference there at present, though. If they only write rules in the future for primaris units as they are now, then yes you are right. What will more likely happen though is that there are rules for say, tactical squads and intercessor squads, and one day the tactical squad gets a new box. Rules for tactical squads are still there, meaning that you can still use whatever tactical marine models you want, even though they are only selling primaris sized ones. Until you see rules for pre-primaris units dropped altogether, I would assume gradual assimilation rather than anything else, which the contents of the 10th ed box seems to support.
40k firstborn kits will be slowly phased out as sales go down and molds give out, but my bet is that the rules will remain, as long as Horus Heresy plastic kits are on the market to act as proxy.
If anything the Primaris sternguards are a very clear indication that GW will also primaris-replace every atypical firstborn kits.
JamesY wrote: The distinction between primaris and firstborn will be dropped, new kits will be primaris sized, and over time the older kits will vanish. Playing with first born in the future will be no different from using RT era models now- they will just look comparatively small compared to other models on the table.
One major difference is that the original RT kits still had rules. Even now the RT kits are still fieldable as what they were intended to be. Tactical Squads, Assault Squads, Devastators, Rhinos, Predators, Land Raiders never went away, they just got a new look.
Moving to Primaris threatens to erase many of those original units. That's very different than the move in the early 90s to update Marines to Mk.VII
There isn't a difference there at present, though. If they only write rules in the future for primaris units as they are now, then yes you are right. What will more likely happen though is that there are rules for say, tactical squads and intercessor squads, and one day the tactical squad gets a new box. Rules for tactical squads are still there, meaning that you can still use whatever tactical marine models you want, even though they are only selling primaris sized ones. Until you see rules for pre-primaris units dropped altogether, I would assume gradual assimilation rather than anything else, which the contents of the 10th ed box seems to support.
I did say "threatens".
But you can see from the question by the OP that it's a real sword of Damocles for some, and it has been since the introduction of Primaris *spits* back in 2017. It could even be a self-fulfilling prophesy, where people buy First/true/realMarines less because of the threat that they get replaced, which only makes it more likely that they get phased out because they're not selling as well.
Anecdotally though? My local GLGS tells me that First/True/RealMarines still make up about 50% of their Marine sales, which probably means they still outsell whole other factions.
It feels like the plan is folding the old line into the primaris line.
Terminators and Sternguard can now be primaris or old marines.
Have flamers/plasma guns from your 3rd/4th/5th tactical marines? Infernus/Hellblasters now. The bolter boys can just be intercessors. Missile launchers = Desolators. There's still some holes for grav and melta guns, and a bunch of the heavy weapons ATM though. Kind of expect a power armor primaris devastator squad with melta-rifles, grav weapons, las-talons...etc to replace the existing stuff.
Attack bikes = New primaris buggies. Bikes = Outriders, just need the outriders to have access to special weapons.
Apothecaries, Chaplains and Captains and Lieutenants are all replaced.
The real question is vehicle stuff, and Jump Pack marines. I can almost GUARENTEE there will be a primaris assualt marine variant in the next year or two (If not for the Vanilla book this fall, then Blood Angels codex for sure)
For one thing, there was a known problem that Firstborn with their flexibility could often be 'noob traps'. It wasn't uncommon to see a new player outfit their Tactical Squad with lascannon, meltagun, and power fist, and the result was a squad with all the shiny bells and whistles that was next to useless on the tabletop and presented a bunch of different wargear bits for the new player to keep track of. Space Marines are the intro to the game for most players; the designers had an opportunity to redesign how the Space Marine line functions with single-purpose, universally-equipped squads more akin to Aspect Warriors. It's simpler, and harder to accidentally screw up by not knowing how the game works.
Also, the Marine line was already huge. Adding on a whole new line of new choices would be rapidly getting unwieldy. Instead GW chose to segregate them into a new line. When you go into shops you'll generally see Primaris stuff now as a standalone army, theoretically compatible with Firstborn but with some weird interactions on the tabletop that work against it (like Primaris not being able to ride in Rhinos). There's a hard line between the old stuff and the new stuff.
And more cynically, by launching it as a new range rather than redesigns of old models, GW got a lot of players to start new armies or re-buy old ones. New and different is more exciting than resculpts, at least when the current sculpts aren't that old or outdated.
8th Ed was a re-launch of the game and an opportunity to start fresh. I've heard unconfirmed rumors that Marines in 8th were originally intended to be Primaris-only, actually, and that GW walked it back fairly late in development. As time goes on we're seeing Primaris gradually integrated with Firstborn in terms of rules, so I suspect what we're going to see in the future is less-played Firstborn units gradually shifted to Legends with each new book.
That was interesting and informative; however ,they could have fixed all of that without having to add a new classification of Primaris models or using bigger bases. Even now it seems a lot of the Primaris models would fit on a 32mm base. And if they don't, the solution is just to tell the sculptors to make them so they do fit.
Base and miniature-sizes aside, pretty much all of the above could still have been fixed with just an update in rules for regular space marines.
Also - my guess is that the main reason noob players outfitted their tactical squad with a bit of everything, is because that's what comes in the box. I'm a noob myself and independently I figured I want the squad to have very similar weapons. The special troops having both melta-guns and the seargant having a melta-combi or whatever. Just because I didn't want to keep track of all the rules ... but I can't, because they only put one of each thing in the box. So I'm now searching websites for third-party bits just so I can outfit them similarly. This is entirely GW's fault, not the fault of the rules. I think it's very important that the rules offer the freedom to create an ineffective force by error (or intent if you want that for some reason). If that option doesn't exist, then you similarly don't have the option to create a really clever one. It's all just the same whatever - throw the army list and weapon rules out the window.
Okay - I get it - they want space marines to be noob-friendly. They could have done that without Primaris.
Sorry, it's a moot conversation I know. That cat's out of the bag. Just ranting.
JamesY wrote: The distinction between primaris and firstborn will be dropped, new kits will be primaris sized, and over time the older kits will vanish. Playing with first born in the future will be no different from using RT era models now- they will just look comparatively small compared to other models on the table.
One major difference is that the original RT kits still had rules. Even now the RT kits are still fieldable as what they were intended to be. Tactical Squads, Assault Squads, Devastators, Rhinos, Predators, Land Raiders never went away, they just got a new look.
Moving to Primaris threatens to erase many of those original units. That's very different than the move in the early 90s to update Marines to Mk.VII
There isn't a difference there at present, though. If they only write rules in the future for primaris units as they are now, then yes you are right. What will more likely happen though is that there are rules for say, tactical squads and intercessor squads, and one day the tactical squad gets a new box. Rules for tactical squads are still there, meaning that you can still use whatever tactical marine models you want, even though they are only selling primaris sized ones. Until you see rules for pre-primaris units dropped altogether, I would assume gradual assimilation rather than anything else, which the contents of the 10th ed box seems to support.
I did say "threatens".
But you can see from the question by the OP that it's a real sword of Damocles for some, and it has been since the introduction of Primaris *spits* back in 2017. It could even be a self-fulfilling prophesy, where people buy First/true/realMarines less because of the threat that they get replaced, which only makes it more likely that they get phased out because they're not selling as well.
I agree with you, and I wasn't arguing with what you were saying. They could absolutely remove all none primaris units from 10th ed and leave a lot of people with essentially obsolete armies, so I completely understand the anxiety of the 'threat'. I don't think that that's what is going to happen, though. It'd be too big a push away for collectors of their biggest faction.
Respectfully, I don't think the base size thing is the problem you think it is. Terminators have been on 40s for a long time now, and plenty of DA/other SM fans like their Termies.
RaptorusRex wrote: Respectfully, I don't think the base size thing is the problem you think it is. Terminators have been on 40s for a long time now, and plenty of DA/other SM fans like their Termies.
Terminators are really big though, right? It kind of makes sense for them to be on a 40mm base. I don't have a problem with big units having big models that take up a lot of space. I have a problem with every unit being models that take up a lot of space.
Are they going to put Terminators on 50mm bases now? ... literally twice the size of the old-school ones.
... regardless ... looking at the Leviathon Box pictures, it seems most of the Primaris marines are on 32mm bases anyway ... so ... *shrug*
I'm a noob myself and independently I figured I want the squad to have very similar weapons. The special troops having both melta-guns and the seargant having a melta-combi or whatever. Just because I didn't want to keep track of all the rules ... but I can't, because they only put one of each thing in the box. So I'm now searching websites for third-party bits just so I can outfit them similarly. This is entirely GW's fault, not the fault of the rules
Looking at the datasheet for the Tactical Squad, I just realised I can't do this. I thought 2 SM's out of 10 could have either a heavy or special weapon. It turns out 1 can have a heavy and 1 can have a special. :S
I guess I might just go for one flamer and give the sergeant a flame pistol. No heavy, that guy can just get a boltgun...
H.B.M.C. wrote: At Warhammer Fest there was a Q&A and people asked about phasing out First Born Marines.
The answer was that they would be over time, and generally based on sales. So things that continue to sell are unlikely to go away anytime soon. The Tactical Squad was called out as something that is still a high seller.
I suspect the Primaris Sternguard (and potentially Terminators) will be the paradigm - Old/"Firstborn" kits will be replaced with Mark X powerarmor kits.
I suspect (but less so) that you'll be able to mix and match kits, they'll have the same statline (meaning Firstborn will get a +1A pretty soon - which would be easy to hide now that A is on the weapon - so firstborn or primaris a Sternguard Sergeant with a power sword will have 3/4/x/y/z/whatever attacks. After that they can just use the same cookie cutter on Assault Squads, Vanguard Vets, Bike Squads which will actually phase out Outriders, and so on and so on.
Just to clarify, Most Primaris are still using 32mm bases just as Firstborn, only the Gravis suit models use 40mm. If you hate excess bulk, then going all in with Phobos armoured Primaris is still an option. In fact, a Marine army with all Phobos infantry and HH/RT era vehicles could look all sorts of cool (with appropriate head and weapon swaps)
Yeah, I know, Heresy to combine Primaris kits and oldscool marines, but I'm weird like that
PS: Take a peep at OSJC's Space Sharks blog (link- https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/776725.page ). there's a bunch of cool ideas there mixing up Primaris kits with firstborn bits. With enough imagination, one can change the division between Firstborn and Primaris to a world of expanded possibilities
RaptorusRex wrote: Respectfully, I don't think the base size thing is the problem you think it is. Terminators have been on 40s for a long time now, and plenty of DA/other SM fans like their Termies.
Terminators are really big though, right? It kind of makes sense for them to be on a 40mm base. I don't have a problem with big units having big models that take up a lot of space. I have a problem with every unit being models that take up a lot of space.
Are they going to put Terminators on 50mm bases now? ... literally twice the size of the old-school ones.
... regardless ... looking at the Leviathon Box pictures, it seems most of the Primaris marines are on 32mm bases anyway ... so ... *shrug*
...
There really isn't any difference between Primaris and Firstborn, base-wise, if you updated your Firstborn to their current sizes.
Any normal Primaris is on 32, just like any normal Firstborn.
Any Gravis armored Primaris is on 40mm, just like any Terminator armored Firstborn.
(not counting Characters)
Well, the 10th Edition core rules answer this unequivocally. The example data-sheet in those rules is specifically that of a Tactical Squad which appears almost exactly the same as the regular SM Tactical Squad in 9th Edition.
The only difference I can spot is that it appears nobody gets grenades anymore.
The Pig-Faced Orc wrote: Well, the 10th Edition core rules answer this unequivocally. The example data-sheet in those rules is specifically that of a Tactical Squad which appears almost exactly the same as the regular SM Tactical Squad in 9th Edition.
The only difference I can spot is that it appears nobody gets grenades anymore.
Those example datasheets are already known to be non-representative of the actual SM units from 10th, though. Still pretty much a guarantee the Tactical Squad will remain in 10th, however.
Gert wrote: The Tactical Squad will be around until Intercessors get turned into Tacticals at which point the Tactical Squad will still be around just bigger.
It seems to me that the war-gear options are significantly different.
Gert wrote: The Tactical Squad will be around until Intercessors get turned into Tacticals at which point the Tactical Squad will still be around just bigger.
It seems to me that the war-gear options are significantly different.
that only lasts as long as it takes GW to create a new unit that can be equipped as either and have that replace both, can still use them as either but its then a single unit entry
We've got Terminators and Sternguard into Primaris now, the Dreadnought has been all but replaced by the Redemptor style, and it's rumoured new Scouts are on the way styled the same as Templar Initiates and the basic Tacticus model has loads of weapons now. At some point, it'll change from the Legion-style single load-outs to the Codex Astartes style flexibility.
Until then the Tactical Squad will remain on sale.
Honestly, the old box dread kit needed to be replaced. And they said the ven dread kit will still be available. And it is WAY better. Although I prefer the ML option to the plasma, which is the wargear difference in the kits.
Real sad to the SG kit go. Fingers crossed the new box will take up the torch from the old. The vet boxes were some of the best SM kits GW ever made.
That's not so bad I guess. Although it does make me wonder, why all the far-fetched, silly and confusing lore to justify it? Why not just make the new models the bigger scale? That would have been perfect (on 32mm bases, not 40mm).
Because what we're seeing now wasn't the original plan. 40k was originally up for a big reboot and relaunch, following in the footsteps of Warhammer: The End Times into Age of Sigmar. But then Age of Sigmar bombed.
Badly.
Not only that, but the backlash over AoS, as well as the massive uproar over the idea of replacing marines (when Primaris hit the scene) forced GW to dial back their plans of squatting the marine line.
So now we're seeing the eco-friendly alternative plan they've come up with. Re-introduction of classical marine units as Primaris units / at Primaris scales, and dropping of the classical kits. A longer game which won't be as wildly profitable as the "Your marines are invalid, please buy a full army of new ones" but doesn't crash-and-burn their flagship IP and primary money maker.
Tamereth wrote: So the sternguard kit and old box dread have booth been dumped from the range today. Replaced by the Primaris equivalent in the new box set.
A clear sign of things to come in the future.
Yes.
They're going back to the old approach of just upgrading kits to the new scale & quality, (and armor marks, same as they did with mk7 and mk8). They're actively playing Schrodinger's Primaris with the terminators, and just (quietly) mentioned the new sternguard are primaris in a Q&A session, but it isn't important.
They triggered a backlash with Primaris. It largely settled down, but clearly still causes problems. This time they're focusing on the idea of upgrading what already exists, same as they did the first five times they upgraded space marine kits.
Voss wrote: and just (quietly) mentioned the new sternguard are primaris in a Q&A session, but it isn't important.
The models are literally in MkX armour, how is that "quietly" mentioned? Were people that stupid they thought that the very obvious Primaris models weren't somehow Primaris?
Voss wrote: and just (quietly) mentioned the new sternguard are primaris in a Q&A session, but it isn't important.
The models are literally in MkX armour, how is that "quietly" mentioned? Were people that stupid they thought that the very obvious Primaris models weren't somehow Primaris?
Quietly mentioned in a Q&A after the event, not as a centerpiece of the Big Event advertising on the day.
A new armor mark isn't what got people worked up about primaris. The new sternguard largely look like the old sternguard with a different helmet and the same weapons.
A lot of people won't particularly notice the difference. Especially given that the current sternguard are usually pictured with 2 guys unhelmeted and 2 with big obscuring targeters (with the heavy flamer guy with a different helmet style, to boot)
Nevelon wrote: Honestly, the old box dread kit needed to be replaced.
I'd argue there are certain things that need replacing more: Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Fire Dragons, Striking Scorpions, all the remaining non-plastic Phoenix Lords.
Poor little Boxnought was't hurting nobody...
Nevelon wrote: Real sad to the SG kit go. Fingers crossed the new box will take up the torch from the old. The vet boxes were some of the best SM kits GW ever made.
Given the jigsaw puzzle sprues where each model only goes together in one specific way and maybe you get to chose the arms/direction the head is facing (but not always...) we get these days, I have little faith that the new Sternguard kit will match the modular masterclass that is the original plastic Sternguard kit.
Nevelon wrote: Honestly, the old box dread kit needed to be replaced.
I'd argue there are certain things that need replacing more: Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Fire Dragons, Striking Scorpions, all the remaining non-plastic Phoenix Lords.
Poor little Boxnought was't hurting nobody...
Nevelon wrote: Real sad to the SG kit go. Fingers crossed the new box will take up the torch from the old. The vet boxes were some of the best SM kits GW ever made.
Given the jigsaw puzzle sprues where each model only goes together in one specific way and maybe you get to chose the arms/direction the head is facing (but not always...) we get these days, I have little faith that the new Sternguard kit will match the modular masterclass that is the original plastic Sternguard kit.
I agree on all points. I love the box dreads and am sad to see this one go. I would have preferred to see him re-cut, same classic dread but with modern techniques that would let them pack more options on the sprues. But I also recognize that the marine line is getting real bloated. Did we need both the classic dread and the ven dread kit? If one had to go, it’s an obvious choice.
If I had my way the energy put into inventing the primaris line would have been spent revisiting old kits across all the ranges. What they did with the Eldar is a good example. Just a handful of new things that fit into the established lore, and updating the old stuff with new technology and classic aesthetics.
But I don’t make the calls.
It will be interesting to see how they deal with sternguard. Is this where they blur the lines or primaris and firstborn? Have primaris just be truescale marines?
I’m trying to be optimistic about the new SG kit. I assume there will be a full kit at some point after the starter box. It’s going to have some really big boots to fill, and I doubt it will be able to. Part of me wants to grab the old box before it’s gone, just for my bits box. But the hobby budget it not infinite.
Probably the most egregious base is the Sisters of Battle Hospitaller, who's hogging a 50mm base for herself and a corpse.
That does seem a little ridiculous. Unless there's a gameplay reason.
There isn't a gameplay reason. They simply made a model that because of the scenic corpse part of the sculpt requires a larger than normal base.
Okay this is off on a tangent, but, is she a corpse? I assumed she was just wounded, and the Hospitalier's in the midst of addressing the heavens to let the Emperor know she's about to get to work, so make with the healing miracles.
Probably the most egregious base is the Sisters of Battle Hospitaller, who's hogging a 50mm base for herself and a corpse.
That does seem a little ridiculous. Unless there's a gameplay reason.
There isn't a gameplay reason. They simply made a model that because of the scenic corpse part of the sculpt requires a larger than normal base.
Okay this is off on a tangent, but, is she a corpse? I assumed she was just wounded, and the Hospitalier's in the midst of addressing the heavens to let the Emperor know she's about to get to work, so make with the healing miracles.
Whatever you want to call it, it's still a non-functional bit of scenery that requires a larger base.
Probably the most egregious base is the Sisters of Battle Hospitaller, who's hogging a 50mm base for herself and a corpse.
That does seem a little ridiculous. Unless there's a gameplay reason.
There isn't a gameplay reason. They simply made a model that because of the scenic corpse part of the sculpt requires a larger than normal base.
Okay this is off on a tangent, but, is she a corpse? I assumed she was just wounded, and the Hospitalier's in the midst of addressing the heavens to let the Emperor know she's about to get to work, so make with the healing miracles.
From GW webstore ad copy:
A Hospitaller is an Elites choice for the Adepta Sororitas, and comes equipped with a holstered bolt pistol and chirurgeon’s tools. A dying Battle Sister lies at her feet as the Hospitaller reads her last rites from a sacred tome.
Personally, while it's all very well to set Sister Lucia's mind at ease before she goes to the Golden Throne for her judgement in the eyes of the Emperor. If there's a battle still raging, the Hospitaller should be saving those sisters who can rise to fight again, so that they may deliver the Emperor's Mercy to His enemies.
As for the Primaris rollout ... One aspect I consider they botched was the Assault Marines replacement, first with Reivers, then Assault Intercessors. With the Reivers they have grapnel guns and zip lines, clearly inferior to jump packs, but the design was based on being tacticool, rather than tactical. And Assault Intercessors have lost any mobility their predecessors had. At least they have a chainsword; my experience with Reivers is they can get to a target, and then get curb-stomped by said target because their knives do nothing. Okay, they can beat up Tau Fire Warriors, but only Tau Fire Warriors can't beat up another Fire Warrior, so that's not saying much.
That's not so bad I guess. Although it does make me wonder, why all the far-fetched, silly and confusing lore to justify it? Why not just make the new models the bigger scale? That would have been perfect (on 32mm bases, not 40mm).
Because what we're seeing now wasn't the original plan. 40k was originally up for a big reboot and relaunch, following in the footsteps of Warhammer: The End Times into Age of Sigmar. But then Age of Sigmar bombed.
Badly.
Not only that, but the backlash over AoS, as well as the massive uproar over the idea of replacing marines (when Primaris hit the scene) forced GW to dial back their plans of squatting the marine line.
So now we're seeing the eco-friendly alternative plan they've come up with. Re-introduction of classical marine units as Primaris units / at Primaris scales, and dropping of the classical kits. A longer game which won't be as wildly profitable as the "Your marines are invalid, please buy a full army of new ones" but doesn't crash-and-burn their flagship IP and primary money maker.
That is an interesting post, but it still doesn't answer the question, why?
They still could have just called them regular Space Marines. I'm sure they would have sold just as well. Maybe better. And they also wouldn't have to write a bunch of silly lore or risk annoying their customers.
It just seems like one of those decissions that was made by someone at GW who was basically just justifying their job. "Hey ... I have a great idea! - Let's do X unecessary project!".
A recent quote from WHC regarding the topic of this thread:
"In the new edition of Warhammer 40,000 you will still be able to play a Space Marines army without deploying so much as a single Primaris Marine, if you so choose."
tauist wrote: A recent quote from WHC regarding the topic of this thread:
"In the new edition of Warhammer 40,000 you will still be able to play a Space Marines army without deploying so much as a single Primaris Marine, if you so choose."
/thread?
they left out "in Open Play, with your opponents permission"...
tauist wrote: A recent quote from WHC regarding the topic of this thread:
"In the new edition of Warhammer 40,000 you will still be able to play a Space Marines army without deploying so much as a single Primaris Marine, if you so choose."
/thread?
I read that too.
My first thought was things haven't gone to plan if they need to advertise in their marketing material that "you don't need to deploy a single one of our <new shiny thing>". That's kind of an anti-advertisement.
I've not actually played a game of 9th, 8th was fun early on, but basically with limited time I play other things
youngest however has a group where he works who play and hes on about splitting a 10th edition box so will likely end up with it
I wonder if GW have a worry there are plenty of people out there who don't need a starter box, and want to convince them they can get by with the rulebook but that the edition isn't leaving them behind
They still could have just called them regular Space Marines. I'm sure they would have sold just as well. Maybe better. And they also wouldn't have to write a bunch of silly lore or risk annoying their customers.
Doubtful. I'd bet dollars to donuts the haters would launch off on gw being 'lazy' and 'just' making bigger sms. They'd have had the opportunity to refresh the line, clean out thr clutter and they bottled it in favour of a zero-effort cash grab. Etc etc.
'Malibu Stacy with a new hat'. I already have all my marines, I don't need to buy more' would be the standard response. And do you seriously think people won't see it as 'gw wants me to re-buy my army'?
Thing is, there are other reasons to consider as well. Gw is thinking in terms of ten or twenty years. There is only do much 'refreshing' you can do. Sonetimes you need 'new' stuff and sometimes you need to start from scratch and rebuild. Plus there is the Charterhouse legacy and gw's trying to control/protect their own vision/ip - its easier to copyright 'intercessor' than 'tactical marine'. Guarantee you they are still hella bitter about that.
Primaris are that plan. Marine line was mined out. Could it have been done better? Absolutely. I do maintain though that there was no way of doing it without annoying someone.
I'm sure this has been posted before, so I'll spoiler it, but it's not exactly hard to see why Primaris Marines annoy many people:
Spoiler:
The Ballard of 'Bigger Batman'
Imagine DC Comics sitting around and trying to decide how to boost comic sales over the next few years.
"I know," a writer says, "Let's make Bigger Batman."
The market analyst shuffles through some data and says "There may actually be consumer interest in making Batman bigger. The story line does reference him being a peak physical specimen, but he's always drawn the same size as the other male characters. I think the fans would react well to a larger Batman."
"No," says the writer. "I don't mean that we should just draw Batman bigger. That would be stupid and I wouldn't be creating anything new. Let's make Bigger Batman, a totally new character."
"Um," says the analyst, but the the writer presses hard for what he is calling his creative contribution to the legacy of comics and the director likes the projection for how new characters boost sales so in the next series, they introduce Bigger Batman.
It turns out that Bruce Wayne has a brother. Chad Wayne is bigger and stronger and faster and better looking than Bruce. He was separated at birth through a hospital mix up and his adopted parents were killed in a mugging gone wrong in a way that was just like Bruce's story but more tragic. He took over the adopted family's business empire that was just like Bruce's but bigger and now he has come to Gotham in its hour of need to do Bruce's job but better.
He has the Bigger Batmobile and Bigger Batarangs and pretty soon he has the Bigger Batsignal. It's actually hard to tell the Batsignal from the Bigger Batsignal if they aren't both on together since they are exactly the same except in proportion, but the bigger engine in the Bigger Batmobile gets Bigger Batman to the scene first unless he's solving a bigger crime somewhere else in which case people look mildly disappointed when they realize that it's just Batman that has arrived and often choose to wait for his brother.
"So, thanks Batman. We really appreciate you showing up to save us from this bank robbery, but we'll be fine, really, and Bigger Batman should be along at any minute."
Pretty soon, Bruce Wayne stops putting on the Batsuit at all which is just as well because the Batsignal (now known as the Little Batsignal) has been put in storage. Bruce develops a drinking problem and eventually people in Gotham forget that Little Batman was ever a thing.
In the story the writer has created, all of this makes perfect sense. Commissioner Gordon likes Bigger Batman because he's better at solving crime. The citizens of Gotham like Bigger Batman because he makes them safer. Vicki Vale likes Bigger Batman because he's better looking and has a bigger dick.
As a comic fan, I fething hate Bigger Batman, and not for any kind of internal inconsistency with the story. I hate Bigger Batman because with a few words- with nothing more than a few exclamation points, really- the writer has made a beloved character with decades of rich backstory into the smaller and less impressive version of itself. Bigger Batman doesn't add anything positive to the story unless you are actually going for satire, but he does feth up the existing character of Batman.
That's why I hate the Primaris marines.
mrFickle wrote: Are primaris in the terminator armour? I thought they couldn’t fit in terminator armour and so terminators were still first born
The fluff is arbitrary and will change to be whatever GW needs it to be.
They still could have just called them regular Space Marines. I'm sure they would have sold just as well. Maybe better. And they also wouldn't have to write a bunch of silly lore or risk annoying their customers.
Doubtful. I'd bet dollars to donuts the haters would launch off on gw being 'lazy' and 'just' making bigger sms. They'd have had the opportunity to refresh the line, clean out thr clutter and they bottled it in favour of a zero-effort cash grab. Etc etc.
'Malibu Stacy with a new hat'. I already have all my marines, I don't need to buy more' would be the standard response. And do you seriously think people won't see it as 'gw wants me to re-buy my army'?
Thing is, there are other reasons to consider as well. Gw is thinking in terms of ten or twenty years. There is only do much 'refreshing' you can do. Sonetimes you need 'new' stuff and sometimes you need to start from scratch and rebuild. Plus there is the Charterhouse legacy and gw's trying to control/protect their own vision/ip - its easier to copyright 'intercessor' than 'tactical marine'. Guarantee you they are still hella bitter about that.
Primaris are that plan. Marine line was mined out. Could it have been done better? Absolutely. I do maintain though that there was no way of doing it without annoying someone.
You know what? I think you make strong points and you're absolutely right.
Now, I do think they could have done it better. A new version of the armour would have been much less intrusive and out-of-place with decades of history and lore and achieved much the same results. And I wouldn't have minded if they said, "look these guys are supposed to be 7-feet tall in power-armour, the old models were a bit small, so we're making the new range a bit bigger". The new lore to make them 8+ feet tall and all that grates me a bit. I'm not sure people realize how alien huge 8 feet tall really is.
To put it in perspective, here is Shaq (~7 feet tall - good size for a superhuman marine) with normal people:
And here he is next to Yao Ming (7.5 feet tall):
Now imagine you're ~9-foot tall Primaris marine. In bare feet, Yao's head wouldn't come up their nipples. In power-armour it would be more like their sternum.
Which is ridiculous.
What's more - the new models don't represent a 8-9-foot tall person in power armour, they represent a 7-foot tall person in power armour. So the lore isn't even necessary. They're just the size the old marines should have been. I'm a bit worried it will never end and we'll end up playing 40K with G.I.Joe sized "miniatures".
NOW .... apologies for the huge rant ... all that said, I do actually agree with you! This is just me rambling about minor gripes for fun.
Crimson wrote: Primaris models are actually scaled to be roughly seven feet tall. They're about 38mm tall, whilst GW's current normal humans are around 32mm tall.
That's what I said.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm sure this has been posted before, so I'll spoiler it, but it's not exactly hard to see why Primaris Marines annoy many people:
Spoiler:
The Ballard of 'Bigger Batman'
Imagine DC Comics sitting around and trying to decide how to boost comic sales over the next few years.
"I know," a writer says, "Let's make Bigger Batman."
The market analyst shuffles through some data and says "There may actually be consumer interest in making Batman bigger. The story line does reference him being a peak physical specimen, but he's always drawn the same size as the other male characters. I think the fans would react well to a larger Batman."
"No," says the writer. "I don't mean that we should just draw Batman bigger. That would be stupid and I wouldn't be creating anything new. Let's make Bigger Batman, a totally new character."
"Um," says the analyst, but the the writer presses hard for what he is calling his creative contribution to the legacy of comics and the director likes the projection for how new characters boost sales so in the next series, they introduce Bigger Batman.
It turns out that Bruce Wayne has a brother. Chad Wayne is bigger and stronger and faster and better looking than Bruce. He was separated at birth through a hospital mix up and his adopted parents were killed in a mugging gone wrong in a way that was just like Bruce's story but more tragic. He took over the adopted family's business empire that was just like Bruce's but bigger and now he has come to Gotham in its hour of need to do Bruce's job but better.
He has the Bigger Batmobile and Bigger Batarangs and pretty soon he has the Bigger Batsignal. It's actually hard to tell the Batsignal from the Bigger Batsignal if they aren't both on together since they are exactly the same except in proportion, but the bigger engine in the Bigger Batmobile gets Bigger Batman to the scene first unless he's solving a bigger crime somewhere else in which case people look mildly disappointed when they realize that it's just Batman that has arrived and often choose to wait for his brother.
"So, thanks Batman. We really appreciate you showing up to save us from this bank robbery, but we'll be fine, really, and Bigger Batman should be along at any minute."
Pretty soon, Bruce Wayne stops putting on the Batsuit at all which is just as well because the Batsignal (now known as the Little Batsignal) has been put in storage. Bruce develops a drinking problem and eventually people in Gotham forget that Little Batman was ever a thing.
In the story the writer has created, all of this makes perfect sense. Commissioner Gordon likes Bigger Batman because he's better at solving crime. The citizens of Gotham like Bigger Batman because he makes them safer. Vicki Vale likes Bigger Batman because he's better looking and has a bigger dick.
As a comic fan, I fething hate Bigger Batman, and not for any kind of internal inconsistency with the story. I hate Bigger Batman because with a few words- with nothing more than a few exclamation points, really- the writer has made a beloved character with decades of rich backstory into the smaller and less impressive version of itself. Bigger Batman doesn't add anything positive to the story unless you are actually going for satire, but he does feth up the existing character of Batman.
I like the aesthetic of Gravis marines as they remind me of 30K MKIII and logically 40k marines would up armour themselves if needed, so I just head canon that Gravis are just that.
Other than that yeah I agree with the above, bigger batman is a good example and as for are Firstborn going away, yes, GW recent article on this was hilarious as they both say that no, they are not going away but here is how they are being phased out... kay
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm sure this has been posted before, so I'll spoiler it, but it's not exactly hard to see why Primaris Marines annoy many people:
Spoiler:
The Ballard of 'Bigger Batman'
Imagine DC Comics sitting around and trying to decide how to boost comic sales over the next few years.
"I know," a writer says, "Let's make Bigger Batman."
The market analyst shuffles through some data and says "There may actually be consumer interest in making Batman bigger. The story line does reference him being a peak physical specimen, but he's always drawn the same size as the other male characters. I think the fans would react well to a larger Batman."
"No," says the writer. "I don't mean that we should just draw Batman bigger. That would be stupid and I wouldn't be creating anything new. Let's make Bigger Batman, a totally new character."
"Um," says the analyst, but the the writer presses hard for what he is calling his creative contribution to the legacy of comics and the director likes the projection for how new characters boost sales so in the next series, they introduce Bigger Batman.
It turns out that Bruce Wayne has a brother. Chad Wayne is bigger and stronger and faster and better looking than Bruce. He was separated at birth through a hospital mix up and his adopted parents were killed in a mugging gone wrong in a way that was just like Bruce's story but more tragic. He took over the adopted family's business empire that was just like Bruce's but bigger and now he has come to Gotham in its hour of need to do Bruce's job but better.
He has the Bigger Batmobile and Bigger Batarangs and pretty soon he has the Bigger Batsignal. It's actually hard to tell the Batsignal from the Bigger Batsignal if they aren't both on together since they are exactly the same except in proportion, but the bigger engine in the Bigger Batmobile gets Bigger Batman to the scene first unless he's solving a bigger crime somewhere else in which case people look mildly disappointed when they realize that it's just Batman that has arrived and often choose to wait for his brother.
"So, thanks Batman. We really appreciate you showing up to save us from this bank robbery, but we'll be fine, really, and Bigger Batman should be along at any minute."
Pretty soon, Bruce Wayne stops putting on the Batsuit at all which is just as well because the Batsignal (now known as the Little Batsignal) has been put in storage. Bruce develops a drinking problem and eventually people in Gotham forget that Little Batman was ever a thing.
In the story the writer has created, all of this makes perfect sense. Commissioner Gordon likes Bigger Batman because he's better at solving crime. The citizens of Gotham like Bigger Batman because he makes them safer. Vicki Vale likes Bigger Batman because he's better looking and has a bigger dick.
As a comic fan, I fething hate Bigger Batman, and not for any kind of internal inconsistency with the story. I hate Bigger Batman because with a few words- with nothing more than a few exclamation points, really- the writer has made a beloved character with decades of rich backstory into the smaller and less impressive version of itself. Bigger Batman doesn't add anything positive to the story unless you are actually going for satire, but he does feth up the existing character of Batman.
That's why I hate the Primaris marines.
mrFickle wrote: Are primaris in the terminator armour? I thought they couldn’t fit in terminator armour and so terminators were still first born
The fluff is arbitrary and will change to be whatever GW needs it to be.
Replace Bigger Batman with Edgier Batman and you are firmly in the 90's
... so, basically, they want them to look more like toys to attract, well, maybe not "younger kids", but "sales".
It's a sad state. I remember Games Workshop way back before it was even Games Workshop. When it was two dudes writing Fighting Fantasy game-books. And even after that, well into the 40K era, they were proper gamers, it was really all about making a fun, creative game. 2nd Edition BloodBowl nailed it (not the new "Second Season Edition"), the proper 2nd edition from 1989 or whenever it was released. Such a good miniature game. People wanted to play the game first - buying miniatures was a means to an end.
It's dissapointing that it's become all about hawking plastic.
The "Grumpy Grognards" thread is in the Dakka Discussions subforum
On a serious note, for al lmy years with40k (3th-7th) I've never really wanted a marine army, and I had 7 different armies then. The reason was the absurd look of the models, with proportions as if they were designed to star in a Nick Park movie.
And this year, my first kill team is, what do you know, Intercessors. Marines that actually look badass now.
... so, basically, they want them to look more like toys to attract, well, maybe not "younger kids", but "sales".
It's a sad state. I remember Games Workshop way back before it was even Games Workshop. When it was two dudes writing Fighting Fantasy game-books. And even after that, well into the 40K era, they were proper gamers, it was really all about making a fun, creative game. 2nd Edition BloodBowl nailed it (not the new "Second Season Edition"), the proper 2nd edition from 1989 or whenever it was released. Such a good miniature game. People wanted to play the game first - buying miniatures was a means to an end.
It's dissapointing that it's become all about hawking plastic.
The "Grumpy Grognards" thread is in the Dakka Discussions subforum
On a serious note, for al lmy years with40k (3th-7th) I've never really wanted a marine army, and I had 7 different armies then. The reason was the absurd look of the models, with proportions as if they were designed to star in a Nick Park movie.
And this year, my first kill team is, what do you know, Intercessors. Marines that actually look badass now.
Haha. Yeah. Those old ones definitely looked like muppets.
The funny thing is, I remember buying them and painting them back in the day and thinking they were super cool. I look at them now and it's like, "woah". So weird and cartoony.
... but in my opinion, so was everything else. At least everything GW were making. Very cartoony with very strange proportions. Huge fists on everything, massive weapons, etc. So I dunno why you singled out marines.
Anyway I've changed my mind a bit since the post you quoted. I still think they could/should have done it better, and I wish they weren't quite so big, but the models aren't that bad. They're all still on 32mm bases, and I guess for a 7+ foot tall person in power army they're not ridiculously over-sized. I'm still concerned with the general trend though. It's not only marines getting bigger. Orcs are huger and huger too. Some of the orc models are bigger than ogres. And the Halflings in BloodBowl are now all on 32mm bases. And massive "halflings" too ...
Maybe it's some more general trend? I have the same problem in Warmachine, where older models look like underdeveloped children next to their modern counterparts (even the same units).
Cyel wrote: Maybe it's some more general trend? I have the same problem in Warmachine, where older models look like underdeveloped children next to their modern counterparts (even the same units).
Hmmm ... yes and no. I think it's mainly a GW thing, but GW dominates the market and dictates the "trends" to third-party miniature makers to some extent. So that does create a "trend" in the end.
Neither here nor there really, but back in the day (before my time) there were a lot of "more realistic" miniatures. But they were tiny and hard to paint. Some of them were beginning to exaggerate some features just because people figured out that slightly cartoony features looked better on a gaming table and were easier to paint. Games Workshop just took that to level 20 with models that had fists as big as their head and weapons that would weigh 100kg in real life. In "modern times" they've been toning it down more and more, culminating so far it seems in the "new less cartoon orcs" (sidepoint: I wonder if 10th will feature the "new orcs" too?). But a lot of miniature lines for less-well-known-games stayed with pretty realistic proportions the whole time.
I don't know anything about Warmachine, but it seems like it's basically just a bit of a copy of WH40K. Which isn't bad, it might be way better, I wouldn't know - just saying that I'm guessing their miniature range would probably follow whatever 40K is doing.
Moorecox wrote: The sooner they send the last firstborn to legends the better AFAIC.
^This is the plebian take of lesser individuals.
Right, I love Primaris models(and have 7k+ worth), but yah know what...MKIII, IV & VI are where it's at from a classic "40k" view. My RT Salamanders consisted of mkvi squads w mkiii Sargeants. That is the true way.
It's nice to finally be able to have modern plastics in the classic armours...
Moorecox wrote: The sooner they send the last firstborn to legends the better AFAIC.
^This is the plebian take of lesser individuals.
Right, I love Primaris models(and have 7k+ worth), but yah know what...MKIII, IV & VI are where it's at from a classic "40k" view. My RT Salamanders consisted of mkvi squads w mkiii Sargeants. That is the true way.
It's nice to finally be able to have modern plastics in the classic armours...
Those MkVI ones are fantastic models IMO.
They're actually very close to Primaris-sized too. I don't have a problem with this so much. It's more the lore that says Primaris are 9-feet tall or whatever. I hope that as Primaris slowly replace old SM's, they dial that way back in the lore.
The scale below all looks pretty good for a Primaris Marine that is supposed to be about 7-feet tall.
Neither here nor there really, but back in the day (before my time) there were a lot of "more realistic" miniatures. But they were tiny and hard to paint. Some of them were beginning to exaggerate some features just because people figured out that slightly cartoony features looked better on a gaming table and were easier to paint. Games Workshop just took that to level 20 with models that had fists as big as their head and weapons that would weigh 100kg in real life.
Hmm, I admit I don't know a lot about historical ranges, but from what I see they are often very goofy and cartoony. The same can be said for older ones. While there may have been more realistic ones, I mostly recall seeing the ones with round Soldier Shweik faces and trousers three sizes too big. Maybe for GW it was a choice or following an unspoken convention, maybe for historicals it was limits in the casting technology or tge lack of skill of sculptors, the cartoony look was there.
I even asked about it in the thread about a historical wargames zine, but nobody answered me.
There's one thing that caught my interest. All (almost all?) these models seem to have such an incredibly goofy aesthetic. Is it some kind of a convention for historicals, to lessen the horror of the real fighting/suffering you recreate? All these soldiers have such cartoonish proportions, kindly and broad hobbit faces and badly oversized clothes which makes them look like they are from some Looney Tunes Miniature Wargame or Asterix&Obelix the Wargame.
The technology for casting models with realistic proportions and poses is there, for sure. So why the goofiness?
Neither here nor there really, but back in the day (before my time) there were a lot of "more realistic" miniatures. But they were tiny and hard to paint. Some of them were beginning to exaggerate some features just because people figured out that slightly cartoony features looked better on a gaming table and were easier to paint. Games Workshop just took that to level 20 with models that had fists as big as their head and weapons that would weigh 100kg in real life.
Hmm, I admit I don't know a lot about historical ranges, but from what I see they are often very goofy and cartoony. The same can be said for older ones. While there may have been more realistic ones, I mostly recall seeing the ones with round Soldier Shweik faces and trousers three sizes too big. Maybe for GW it was a choice or following an unspoken convention, maybe for historicals it was limits in the casting technology or tge lack of skill of sculptors, the cartoony look was there.
I even asked about it in the thread about a historical wargames zine, but nobody answered me.
There's one thing that caught my interest. All (almost all?) these models seem to have such an incredibly goofy aesthetic. Is it some kind of a convention for historicals, to lessen the horror of the real fighting/suffering you recreate? All these soldiers have such cartoonish proportions, kindly and broad hobbit faces and badly oversized clothes which makes them look like they are from some Looney Tunes Miniature Wargame or Asterix&Obelix the Wargame.
The technology for casting models with realistic proportions and poses is there, for sure. So why the goofiness?
I think a lot of it was just that it's hard to sculpt (and paint) teeny details - so they just made the details bigger. And then realized that those "cartoon proportions" also looked much better from a distance on the tabletop.
As an example of what I'm talking about, here are some old-school war-gaming minis. Obviously they're still a bit goofy-looking ...
... but nothing compared to the level that GW would ramp-it-up to with head-sized fists and feet that are longer than thighs...
Personally, I like "realistic" minis, but even I have to admit that the outlandish GW models looked way better on the table. I think they over-did it a bit, but still. I suppose now that they're just making "everything bigger" they don't need to rely so much on cartoon-proportions (?).
Haha. Well, I believe those are Foundry models and I think a lot of what you're talking about is due to their famous Foundry old three-layer speed-painting system that really emphasizes contrast.
Personally, I really like those. Both the miniatures and the paint-jobs, for gaming purposes. They look great on a gaming table and really not that cartoon-like when viewed from a distance. As a side-point (and an experienced painter), this is a mistake a see a lot of noobs make when painting armies ... they try and emulate a "display piece" style, and under normal lighting from tabletop distane (or even pretty close tbh), nobody will notice your blends or teeny details. Especially when they don't include unrealistically amplified levels of contrast. But that's a seperate subject.
To me the Foundry miniatures are prefect for wargaming. They still look good on a tabletop, they're very simple and quick to paint and they're not so huge that the clutter the gaming space.
They don't look anywhere near as "cartoon" when viewed from actual gaming distance:
... and that's another peeve of mine with GW. They rely on huge, flashy models for sales. Which is fine, I can't critisize them for selling what sells best. But it really is detrimental to the game becasue it takes up so much space. In 40K you're playing what are supposed to be huge battles with in some cases as little as 30 individual troops per side. And one or two of those being the size of G.I.Joe action figures. That's not a huge battle, it's a light skirmish between a couple of giants and their bodyguads.
Moorecox wrote: As more firstborn units are replaced, like Sternguard, firstborn will eventually be forgotten over time.
GW didn't forget Genestealer Cults, Harlequins or even Squats. Do you think GW is going to forget the biggest breadwinner faction that propelled their business for 25+ years? Forget that the Tactical Squad outsold, I believe, entire factions? Do you think GW will give up an opportunity to resell you yet another version of Marines in the future? The Marines that populate like 95% of the 40k timeline, from the end of the Horus Heresy through to M41?
Moorecox wrote: As more firstborn units are replaced, like Sternguard, firstborn will eventually be forgotten over time.
GW didn't forget Genestealer Cults, Harlequins or even Squats. Do you think GW is going to forget the biggest breadwinner faction that propelled their business for 25+ years? Forget that the Tactical Squad outsold, I believe, entire factions? Do you think GW will give up an opportunity to resell you yet another version of Marines in the future? The Marines that populate like 95% of the 40k timeline, from the end of the Horus Heresy through to M41?
I don't.
Not only that, the current tactical kit is a top 10 seller for marines today, according to warhammerfest interviews. On its own it’s more popular than most primaris kits.
GW just relaunched a whole setting based on firstborn that is cross compatible with 40k.
Grey knights will never get any primaris, according to GW. This is backed up by Crowe not being primaris.
GW is releasing upscaled terminators, which for all intents and purposes are firstborn since their gear is identical (can you imagine the uproar if GW didn’t specify they could be primaris?) They are also releasing basic scouts according to rumors.
The embiggening of the tactical marine is inevitable since it’ll guarantee money for 30 years.
Moorecox wrote: As more firstborn units are replaced, like Sternguard, firstborn will eventually be forgotten over time.
GW didn't forget Genestealer Cults, Harlequins or even Squats. Do you think GW is going to forget the biggest breadwinner faction that propelled their business for 25+ years? Forget that the Tactical Squad outsold, I believe, entire factions? Do you think GW will give up an opportunity to resell you yet another version of Marines in the future? The Marines that populate like 95% of the 40k timeline, from the end of the Horus Heresy through to M41?
I don't.
I wouldn't call it 'forgetting', but if they're actually retiring and Legends-ing the boxnaught without replacing it, I don't think anything is sacrosanct. Actually, I'm not even sure if it's getting Legends'd; the article from a few days ago implies you should just count it as a Venerable Dreadnought. That's a pretty iconic piece of the Firstborn line to just toss out.
Call me cynical but I figure they'll simply slowly retire the Firstborn line as kits sell less than their Primaris counterparts. They won't be throwing out kits that still sell, but they won't be adding much in the way of new Firstborn, or be particularly concerned with whether the remaining Firstborn kits constitute a complete army. They'll be happy to sell you models you want to buy, but new releases will fit into their vision of where the faction is going, not fitting into a line that is slowly on the way out.
Or put another way: If GW wants to re-sell you Tacticals, it'll be either a new Intercessor kit with weapon options, or it'll be a HH kit. But I wouldn't expect new Firstborn-exclusive Tactical Marines for 40K.
They already sold a rescaled tactical squad with their space marine heroes line. Of course it wasn't as flexible as the models where push-fit and you didn't know which one you got, but I build an entire squad of them. They look great next to the Primaris and fit right in.
I wouldn't put it past GW to ride the nostalgia and sell a rescaled kit in maybe 5 years?
Brickfix wrote: They already sold a rescaled tactical squad with their space marine heroes line. Of course it wasn't as flexible as the models where push-fit and you didn't know which one you got, but I build an entire squad of them. They look great next to the Primaris and fit right in.
I wouldn't put it past GW to ride the nostalgia and sell a rescaled kit in maybe 5 years?
HH exists. They already started rescaling to fit in and produce it in mass quantities. And ironically also run a rulessystem more aligned to the old days of 40k
Brickfix wrote: They already sold a rescaled tactical squad with their space marine heroes line. Of course it wasn't as flexible as the models where push-fit and you didn't know which one you got, but I build an entire squad of them. They look great next to the Primaris and fit right in.
I wouldn't put it past GW to ride the nostalgia and sell a rescaled kit in maybe 5 years?
The regular tactical squad seem slightly larger than those to me. I bought a tactical squad a couple of those things just so I had some kit-bashing parts. Those red HH ones seems a little bit smaller (and thinner). But I haven't fully assembled one so I don't have a direct comparison.
Brickfix wrote: They already sold a rescaled tactical squad with their space marine heroes line. Of course it wasn't as flexible as the models where push-fit and you didn't know which one you got, but I build an entire squad of them. They look great next to the Primaris and fit right in.
I wouldn't put it past GW to ride the nostalgia and sell a rescaled kit in maybe 5 years?
The regular tactical squad seem slightly larger than those to me. I bought a tactical squad a couple of those things just so I had some kit-bashing parts. Those red HH ones seems a little bit smaller (and thinner). But I haven't fully assembled one so I don't have a direct comparison.
I bought the space marine heroes back in 2019, they where in blue colored plastic. They are definitely bigger then the tactical squad marines, I believe the same size as the HH Mk. VI. I have no idea about the new ones' size, I would have thought they are the same size as the old ones but apparently not? There are some comparison pictures floating around somewhere online.
According to my scale comparisons, the SMH models are as tall as the 2022 MKVI marines, but their hands are larger and they look like they skipped leg day, the thighs are longer than oldmarines but just as skinny. I consider them to be an "intermediary" rescale. Wait for the new HH plastic infantry coming out this year if you want to see properly rescaled Power Armour is my advise.
Firstborn were being re-scaled prior to the introduction of Primaris, as seen with the Heroes series, Deathwatch Veterans etc., which is why the 'They had to make Primaris to make Marines truescale' argument has always been obvious bunk.
Brickfix wrote: They already sold a rescaled tactical squad with their space marine heroes line. Of course it wasn't as flexible as the models where push-fit and you didn't know which one you got, but I build an entire squad of them. They look great next to the Primaris and fit right in.
I wouldn't put it past GW to ride the nostalgia and sell a rescaled kit in maybe 5 years?
The regular tactical squad seem slightly larger than those to me. I bought a tactical squad a couple of those things just so I had some kit-bashing parts. Those red HH ones seems a little bit smaller (and thinner). But I haven't fully assembled one so I don't have a direct comparison.
I bought the space marine heroes back in 2019, they where in blue colored plastic. They are definitely bigger then the tactical squad marines, I believe the same size as the HH Mk. VI. I have no idea about the new ones' size, I would have thought they are the same size as the old ones but apparently not? There are some comparison pictures floating around somewhere online.
Yes, it does look that way. I guess I was just mistaken.
, the proper 2nd edition from 1989 or whenever it was released. Such a good miniature game. People wanted to play the game first - buying miniatures was a means to an end.
