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The only Firstborn marines I held on to were Sternguard, as my official Veteran Marines. I liked that stat wise they were equal to Primaris.

And now they've been Primaris'd themselves!

Respectfully, I don't think the base size thing is the problem you think it is. Terminators have been on 40s for a long time now, and plenty of DA/other SM fans like their Termies.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Respectfully, I don't think the base size thing is the problem you think it is. Terminators have been on 40s for a long time now, and plenty of DA/other SM fans like their Termies.

Terminators are really big though, right? It kind of makes sense for them to be on a 40mm base. I don't have a problem with big units having big models that take up a lot of space. I have a problem with every unit being models that take up a lot of space.

Are they going to put Terminators on 50mm bases now? ... literally twice the size of the old-school ones.

... regardless ... looking at the Leviathon Box pictures, it seems most of the Primaris marines are on 32mm bases anyway ... so ... *shrug*


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Pig-Faced Orc wrote:

I'm a noob myself and independently I figured I want the squad to have very similar weapons. The special troops having both melta-guns and the seargant having a melta-combi or whatever. Just because I didn't want to keep track of all the rules ... but I can't, because they only put one of each thing in the box. So I'm now searching websites for third-party bits just so I can outfit them similarly. This is entirely GW's fault, not the fault of the rules

Looking at the datasheet for the Tactical Squad, I just realised I can't do this. I thought 2 SM's out of 10 could have either a heavy or special weapon. It turns out 1 can have a heavy and 1 can have a special. :S

I guess I might just go for one flamer and give the sergeant a flame pistol. No heavy, that guy can just get a boltgun...




...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
At Warhammer Fest there was a Q&A and people asked about phasing out First Born Marines.

The answer was that they would be over time, and generally based on sales. So things that continue to sell are unlikely to go away anytime soon. The Tactical Squad was called out as something that is still a high seller.

I suspect the Primaris Sternguard (and potentially Terminators) will be the paradigm - Old/"Firstborn" kits will be replaced with Mark X powerarmor kits.

I suspect (but less so) that you'll be able to mix and match kits, they'll have the same statline (meaning Firstborn will get a +1A pretty soon - which would be easy to hide now that A is on the weapon - so firstborn or primaris a Sternguard Sergeant with a power sword will have 3/4/x/y/z/whatever attacks. After that they can just use the same cookie cutter on Assault Squads, Vanguard Vets, Bike Squads which will actually phase out Outriders, and so on and so on.

Just to clarify, Most Primaris are still using 32mm bases just as Firstborn, only the Gravis suit models use 40mm. If you hate excess bulk, then going all in with Phobos armoured Primaris is still an option. In fact, a Marine army with all Phobos infantry and HH/RT era vehicles could look all sorts of cool (with appropriate head and weapon swaps)

Yeah, I know, Heresy to combine Primaris kits and oldscool marines, but I'm weird like that

PS: Take a peep at OSJC's Space Sharks blog (link- https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/776725.page ). there's a bunch of cool ideas there mixing up Primaris kits with firstborn bits. With enough imagination, one can change the division between Firstborn and Primaris to a world of expanded possibilities

 The Pig-Faced Orc wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Respectfully, I don't think the base size thing is the problem you think it is. Terminators have been on 40s for a long time now, and plenty of DA/other SM fans like their Termies.

Terminators are really big though, right? It kind of makes sense for them to be on a 40mm base. I don't have a problem with big units having big models that take up a lot of space. I have a problem with every unit being models that take up a lot of space.

Are they going to put Terminators on 50mm bases now? ... literally twice the size of the old-school ones.

... regardless ... looking at the Leviathon Box pictures, it seems most of the Primaris marines are on 32mm bases anyway ... so ... *shrug*
...

There really isn't any difference between Primaris and Firstborn, base-wise, if you updated your Firstborn to their current sizes.

Any normal Primaris is on 32, just like any normal Firstborn.
Any Gravis armored Primaris is on 40mm, just like any Terminator armored Firstborn.
(not counting Characters)

Well, the 10th Edition core rules answer this unequivocally. The example data-sheet in those rules is specifically that of a Tactical Squad which appears almost exactly the same as the regular SM Tactical Squad in 9th Edition.

The only difference I can spot is that it appears nobody gets grenades anymore.

 The Pig-Faced Orc wrote:
Well, the 10th Edition core rules answer this unequivocally. The example data-sheet in those rules is specifically that of a Tactical Squad which appears almost exactly the same as the regular SM Tactical Squad in 9th Edition.

The only difference I can spot is that it appears nobody gets grenades anymore.

Those example datasheets are already known to be non-representative of the actual SM units from 10th, though. Still pretty much a guarantee the Tactical Squad will remain in 10th, however.

The Tactical Squad will be around until Intercessors get turned into Tacticals at which point the Tactical Squad will still be around just bigger.

 Gert wrote:
The Tactical Squad will be around until Intercessors get turned into Tacticals at which point the Tactical Squad will still be around just bigger.

It seems to me that the war-gear options are significantly different.

 The Pig-Faced Orc wrote:

 Gert wrote:
The Tactical Squad will be around until Intercessors get turned into Tacticals at which point the Tactical Squad will still be around just bigger.

It seems to me that the war-gear options are significantly different.

that only lasts as long as it takes GW to create a new unit that can be equipped as either and have that replace both, can still use them as either but its then a single unit entry

 The Pig-Faced Orc wrote:
It seems to me that the war-gear options are significantly different.

We've got Terminators and Sternguard into Primaris now, the Dreadnought has been all but replaced by the Redemptor style, and it's rumoured new Scouts are on the way styled the same as Templar Initiates and the basic Tacticus model has loads of weapons now. At some point, it'll change from the Legion-style single load-outs to the Codex Astartes style flexibility.
Until then the Tactical Squad will remain on sale.

So the sternguard kit and old box dread have booth been dumped from the range today. Replaced by the Primaris equivalent in the new box set.

A clear sign of things to come in the future.

Honestly, the old box dread kit needed to be replaced. And they said the ven dread kit will still be available. And it is WAY better. Although I prefer the ML option to the plasma, which is the wargear difference in the kits.

Real sad to the SG kit go. Fingers crossed the new box will take up the torch from the old. The vet boxes were some of the best SM kits GW ever made.

 The Pig-Faced Orc wrote:

That's not so bad I guess. Although it does make me wonder, why all the far-fetched, silly and confusing lore to justify it? Why not just make the new models the bigger scale? That would have been perfect (on 32mm bases, not 40mm).

Because what we're seeing now wasn't the original plan. 40k was originally up for a big reboot and relaunch, following in the footsteps of Warhammer: The End Times into Age of Sigmar. But then Age of Sigmar bombed.

Badly.

Not only that, but the backlash over AoS, as well as the massive uproar over the idea of replacing marines (when Primaris hit the scene) forced GW to dial back their plans of squatting the marine line.

So now we're seeing the eco-friendly alternative plan they've come up with. Re-introduction of classical marine units as Primaris units / at Primaris scales, and dropping of the classical kits. A longer game which won't be as wildly profitable as the "Your marines are invalid, please buy a full army of new ones" but doesn't crash-and-burn their flagship IP and primary money maker.

 The Pig-Faced Orc wrote:


However, I noticed that in the 10th Ed. box, there are zero regular marines. All Primaris.

No different than the 8th or 9th ed boxes, nothing new here.

Actually there is something new - Terminators. Which aren't necessarily Primaris, but aren't necessarily Firstborn either. They just are.

And even after that, well into the 40K era, they were proper gamers

This sounds an awful lot like "We used to be a country. A proper country."

 Tamereth wrote:
So the sternguard kit and old box dread have booth been dumped from the range today. Replaced by the Primaris equivalent in the new box set.

A clear sign of things to come in the future.

Yes.
They're going back to the old approach of just upgrading kits to the new scale & quality, (and armor marks, same as they did with mk7 and mk8). They're actively playing Schrodinger's Primaris with the terminators, and just (quietly) mentioned the new sternguard are primaris in a Q&A session, but it isn't important.

They triggered a backlash with Primaris. It largely settled down, but clearly still causes problems. This time they're focusing on the idea of upgrading what already exists, same as they did the first five times they upgraded space marine kits.

Voss wrote:
and just (quietly) mentioned the new sternguard are primaris in a Q&A session, but it isn't important.

The models are literally in MkX armour, how is that "quietly" mentioned? Were people that stupid they thought that the very obvious Primaris models weren't somehow Primaris?

 Gert wrote:

Voss wrote:
and just (quietly) mentioned the new sternguard are primaris in a Q&A session, but it isn't important.

The models are literally in MkX armour, how is that "quietly" mentioned? Were people that stupid they thought that the very obvious Primaris models weren't somehow Primaris?

Quietly mentioned in a Q&A after the event, not as a centerpiece of the Big Event advertising on the day.

A new armor mark isn't what got people worked up about primaris. The new sternguard largely look like the old sternguard with a different helmet and the same weapons.
A lot of people won't particularly notice the difference. Especially given that the current sternguard are usually pictured with 2 guys unhelmeted and 2 with big obscuring targeters (with the heavy flamer guy with a different helmet style, to boot)

 Nevelon wrote:
Honestly, the old box dread kit needed to be replaced.

I'd argue there are certain things that need replacing more: Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Fire Dragons, Striking Scorpions, all the remaining non-plastic Phoenix Lords.

Poor little Boxnought was't hurting nobody...

 Nevelon wrote:
Real sad to the SG kit go. Fingers crossed the new box will take up the torch from the old. The vet boxes were some of the best SM kits GW ever made.

Given the jigsaw puzzle sprues where each model only goes together in one specific way and maybe you get to chose the arms/direction the head is facing (but not always...) we get these days, I have little faith that the new Sternguard kit will match the modular masterclass that is the original plastic Sternguard kit.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Honestly, the old box dread kit needed to be replaced.

I'd argue there are certain things that need replacing more: Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Fire Dragons, Striking Scorpions, all the remaining non-plastic Phoenix Lords.

Poor little Boxnought was't hurting nobody...

 Nevelon wrote:
Real sad to the SG kit go. Fingers crossed the new box will take up the torch from the old. The vet boxes were some of the best SM kits GW ever made.

Given the jigsaw puzzle sprues where each model only goes together in one specific way and maybe you get to chose the arms/direction the head is facing (but not always...) we get these days, I have little faith that the new Sternguard kit will match the modular masterclass that is the original plastic Sternguard kit.

I agree on all points. I love the box dreads and am sad to see this one go. I would have preferred to see him re-cut, same classic dread but with modern techniques that would let them pack more options on the sprues. But I also recognize that the marine line is getting real bloated. Did we need both the classic dread and the ven dread kit? If one had to go, it’s an obvious choice.

If I had my way the energy put into inventing the primaris line would have been spent revisiting old kits across all the ranges. What they did with the Eldar is a good example. Just a handful of new things that fit into the established lore, and updating the old stuff with new technology and classic aesthetics.

But I don’t make the calls.

It will be interesting to see how they deal with sternguard. Is this where they blur the lines or primaris and firstborn? Have primaris just be truescale marines?

I’m trying to be optimistic about the new SG kit. I assume there will be a full kit at some point after the starter box. It’s going to have some really big boots to fill, and I doubt it will be able to. Part of me wants to grab the old box before it’s gone, just for my bits box. But the hobby budget it not infinite.

ccs wrote:

 The Pig-Faced Orc wrote:

Voss wrote:

Probably the most egregious base is the Sisters of Battle Hospitaller, who's hogging a 50mm base for herself and a corpse.

That does seem a little ridiculous. Unless there's a gameplay reason.

There isn't a gameplay reason. They simply made a model that because of the scenic corpse part of the sculpt requires a larger than normal base.

Okay this is off on a tangent, but, is she a corpse? I assumed she was just wounded, and the Hospitalier's in the midst of addressing the heavens to let the Emperor know she's about to get to work, so make with the healing miracles.

 Daia T'Nara wrote:

ccs wrote:

 The Pig-Faced Orc wrote:

Voss wrote:

Probably the most egregious base is the Sisters of Battle Hospitaller, who's hogging a 50mm base for herself and a corpse.

That does seem a little ridiculous. Unless there's a gameplay reason.

There isn't a gameplay reason. They simply made a model that because of the scenic corpse part of the sculpt requires a larger than normal base.

Okay this is off on a tangent, but, is she a corpse? I assumed she was just wounded, and the Hospitalier's in the midst of addressing the heavens to let the Emperor know she's about to get to work, so make with the healing miracles.

Whatever you want to call it, it's still a non-functional bit of scenery that requires a larger base.

 Daia T'Nara wrote:

ccs wrote:

 The Pig-Faced Orc wrote:

Voss wrote:

Probably the most egregious base is the Sisters of Battle Hospitaller, who's hogging a 50mm base for herself and a corpse.

That does seem a little ridiculous. Unless there's a gameplay reason.

There isn't a gameplay reason. They simply made a model that because of the scenic corpse part of the sculpt requires a larger than normal base.

Okay this is off on a tangent, but, is she a corpse? I assumed she was just wounded, and the Hospitalier's in the midst of addressing the heavens to let the Emperor know she's about to get to work, so make with the healing miracles.

From GW webstore ad copy:
A Hospitaller is an Elites choice for the Adepta Sororitas, and comes equipped with a holstered bolt pistol and chirurgeon’s tools. A dying Battle Sister lies at her feet as the Hospitaller reads her last rites from a sacred tome.

Personally, while it's all very well to set Sister Lucia's mind at ease before she goes to the Golden Throne for her judgement in the eyes of the Emperor. If there's a battle still raging, the Hospitaller should be saving those sisters who can rise to fight again, so that they may deliver the Emperor's Mercy to His enemies.

As for the Primaris rollout ... One aspect I consider they botched was the Assault Marines replacement, first with Reivers, then Assault Intercessors. With the Reivers they have grapnel guns and zip lines, clearly inferior to jump packs, but the design was based on being tacticool, rather than tactical. And Assault Intercessors have lost any mobility their predecessors had. At least they have a chainsword; my experience with Reivers is they can get to a target, and then get curb-stomped by said target because their knives do nothing. Okay, they can beat up Tau Fire Warriors, but only Tau Fire Warriors can't beat up another Fire Warrior, so that's not saying much.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 The Pig-Faced Orc wrote:

That's not so bad I guess. Although it does make me wonder, why all the far-fetched, silly and confusing lore to justify it? Why not just make the new models the bigger scale? That would have been perfect (on 32mm bases, not 40mm).

Because what we're seeing now wasn't the original plan. 40k was originally up for a big reboot and relaunch, following in the footsteps of Warhammer: The End Times into Age of Sigmar. But then Age of Sigmar bombed.

Badly.

Not only that, but the backlash over AoS, as well as the massive uproar over the idea of replacing marines (when Primaris hit the scene) forced GW to dial back their plans of squatting the marine line.

So now we're seeing the eco-friendly alternative plan they've come up with. Re-introduction of classical marine units as Primaris units / at Primaris scales, and dropping of the classical kits. A longer game which won't be as wildly profitable as the "Your marines are invalid, please buy a full army of new ones" but doesn't crash-and-burn their flagship IP and primary money maker.

That is an interesting post, but it still doesn't answer the question, why?

They still could have just called them regular Space Marines. I'm sure they would have sold just as well. Maybe better. And they also wouldn't have to write a bunch of silly lore or risk annoying their customers.

It just seems like one of those decissions that was made by someone at GW who was basically just justifying their job. "Hey ... I have a great idea! - Let's do X unecessary project!".

A recent quote from WHC regarding the topic of this thread:

"In the new edition of Warhammer 40,000 you will still be able to play a Space Marines army without deploying so much as a single Primaris Marine, if you so choose."

/thread?

 tauist wrote:
A recent quote from WHC regarding the topic of this thread:

"In the new edition of Warhammer 40,000 you will still be able to play a Space Marines army without deploying so much as a single Primaris Marine, if you so choose."

/thread?

they left out "in Open Play, with your opponents permission"...

/cynical? moi?

 tauist wrote:
A recent quote from WHC regarding the topic of this thread:

"In the new edition of Warhammer 40,000 you will still be able to play a Space Marines army without deploying so much as a single Primaris Marine, if you so choose."

/thread?

I read that too.

My first thought was things haven't gone to plan if they need to advertise in their marketing material that "you don't need to deploy a single one of our <new shiny thing>". That's kind of an anti-advertisement.

I've not actually played a game of 9th, 8th was fun early on, but basically with limited time I play other things

youngest however has a group where he works who play and hes on about splitting a 10th edition box so will likely end up with it

I wonder if GW have a worry there are plenty of people out there who don't need a starter box, and want to convince them they can get by with the rulebook but that the edition isn't leaving them behind

 The Pig-Faced Orc wrote:

They still could have just called them regular Space Marines. I'm sure they would have sold just as well. Maybe better. And they also wouldn't have to write a bunch of silly lore or risk annoying their customers.

Doubtful. I'd bet dollars to donuts the haters would launch off on gw being 'lazy' and 'just' making bigger sms. They'd have had the opportunity to refresh the line, clean out thr clutter and they bottled it in favour of a zero-effort cash grab. Etc etc.

'Malibu Stacy with a new hat'. I already have all my marines, I don't need to buy more' would be the standard response. And do you seriously think people won't see it as 'gw wants me to re-buy my army'?

Thing is, there are other reasons to consider as well. Gw is thinking in terms of ten or twenty years. There is only do much 'refreshing' you can do. Sonetimes you need 'new' stuff and sometimes you need to start from scratch and rebuild. Plus there is the Charterhouse legacy and gw's trying to control/protect their own vision/ip - its easier to copyright 'intercessor' than 'tactical marine'. Guarantee you they are still hella bitter about that.

Primaris are that plan. Marine line was mined out. Could it have been done better? Absolutely. I do maintain though that there was no way of doing it without annoying someone.