To kick it off I will state some things I said in the previous thread:
1. A unit of Rubric flamers with Ahriman is basically a must include. Using twist of fate it can basically delete almost any unit, especially if that unit is on an objective. Interestingly, I also have been putting a soul reaper cannon in my unit as the 10th man. I did this because I only owned 8 flamers with the sorcerer, so needed a tenth man, but it is good as the flamers are no longer assault, so you can always fire the soul reaper at the same time. You only lose d6 shots to gain 6 shots with better strength and devastating wounds. It adds a bit of longer range punch and +1 to wound from Ahriman is still good on it.
2. Scarab Occult Terminators are bananas good. The -1 to wound is so much better than All is Dust for these guys, and I have had them tank over 20 wounds due to that rule so far.
3. I have not played them yet, but forge fiends might be really good. I watched a TTT battle report which an ork unit that had the same ability shot the Tau units, and it basically crippled the primary damage dealer. Even against BS3 units, I think there is a lot of utility there. And they are 10 points cheaper then Hellbrutes.
4. The winged daemon prince. I know everyone is jazzed for the foot one with-1 to hit, but the speed and utility of the winged one with the ability to go anywhere on the board within 9" every turn is really good. It also lets you put doombolt basically anywhere on the table. I might bring one of each.
So this is to kick off tenth! Praise be to Tzeentch.
Lorex wrote: Hellbrut what weapons is best for it now in 10th edition?
I use mine with a LC/ML but that is because I have the old FW actual thousand sons dreadnoughts, and that is what they are modeled with. It is a bit underwhelming of a load out. If I was going to get more I would definitely take a CC weapon. You want the dreadnoughts to be on the front line as that is where you are probably casting Cabal Spells, and so where you can benefit from their ability (mine sit in the back and shoot, so I did not get to really use the ability, which is clearly part of their points cost). As for gun, LC is probably the least worst option. Dreadnoughts are one of the few platforms we have for AT weapons, and the army is already so good at killing infantry so HB or AC are not really that useful. And the MM is so nerfed that it is not worth taking (play against MMs and they are crap now). So LC/CC is probably the best load out.
Although keep this in mind, Forgefiends are 10 points cheaper and have suppression, and a Perdator with LCs is 25 points cheaper. So if you want back gunline AT, there are probably better options.
I'm very happy with non disc Infantry only TSons which was the first in game attempt I've made. No Magnus, no MVB. Gives more cabal points to play with and no good targets for their anti-tank weapons.
I was pleasantly surprised at the various smites on the HQs and squad leaders. But, do be careful with the Scarab Occult leader as he has a pistol smite, so needs to choose between that and his combi-bolter. Similarly the HQs have gun pistols and non pistol smites so can't cast and shoot. The Rubric leader and TSon Sorcerer however have a gun pistol and a pistol smite so can go wild with a bit of blasting from both.
Lorex wrote: Hellbrut what weapons is best for it now in 10th edition?
I use mine with a LC/ML but that is because I have the old FW actual thousand sons dreadnoughts, and that is what they are modeled with. It is a bit underwhelming of a load out. If I was going to get more I would definitely take a CC weapon. You want the dreadnoughts to be on the front line as that is where you are probably casting Cabal Spells, and so where you can benefit from their ability (mine sit in the back and shoot, so I did not get to really use the ability, which is clearly part of their points cost). As for gun, LC is probably the least worst option. Dreadnoughts are one of the few platforms we have for AT weapons, and the army is already so good at killing infantry so HB or AC are not really that useful. And the MM is so nerfed that it is not worth taking (play against MMs and they are crap now). So LC/CC is probably the best load out.
Although keep this in mind, Forgefiends are 10 points cheaper and have suppression, and a Perdator with LCs is 25 points cheaper. So if you want back gunline AT, there are probably better options.
Thanks for the answer.
I was thinking of a infantry support not back line support.
So Hellbrut sounds nice.
What do you think of the rubrics with flamers?
Im abit worried that GW might go back to weapon points abit later. And in a 1000pts I dont know if I will have support for a unit with flamers. But is 20 rubric with bolters good to have?
Lorex wrote: Hellbrut what weapons is best for it now in 10th edition?
I use mine with a LC/ML but that is because I have the old FW actual thousand sons dreadnoughts, and that is what they are modeled with. It is a bit underwhelming of a load out. If I was going to get more I would definitely take a CC weapon. You want the dreadnoughts to be on the front line as that is where you are probably casting Cabal Spells, and so where you can benefit from their ability (mine sit in the back and shoot, so I did not get to really use the ability, which is clearly part of their points cost). As for gun, LC is probably the least worst option. Dreadnoughts are one of the few platforms we have for AT weapons, and the army is already so good at killing infantry so HB or AC are not really that useful. And the MM is so nerfed that it is not worth taking (play against MMs and they are crap now). So LC/CC is probably the best load out.
Although keep this in mind, Forgefiends are 10 points cheaper and have suppression, and a Perdator with LCs is 25 points cheaper. So if you want back gunline AT, there are probably better options.
Thanks for the answer.
I was thinking of a infantry support not back line support.
So Hellbrut sounds nice.
What do you think of the rubrics with flamers?
Im abit worried that GW might go back to weapon points abit later. And in a 1000pts I dont know if I will have support for a unit with flamers. But is 20 rubric with bolters good to have?
So, the flamers are awesome, especially with Ahriman, but even with exalteds would be good. You want to bring a 10 man of them in basically every list. Personally for Rubrics I like 5 with all the upgrades over ten for bolters. The bolters are ok, but really need the strats to make them good, and you probably want to use them on the SoT. Also you get a whole lot more out of a 5 man with a normal character sorcerer then adding extra guys for about the same price. 1000 points is hard for TS to build, because our Cabals don't scale and we need lots of characters. At 1000 points I would probably bring a 10 man flamer with character, 5 man Rubric, 5 man SoT and fill out the rest with more characters or Dreads or DP. At 1000 points you are going to rock paper scissor hard depending on your opponent.
So I have been playing this game for 30+ years since I was 11 years old in Second Edition. Don't worry about what GW will do in the future. Things are going to change. That is a certain. Units get better, worse you have no control. But I think we have at least a year before they make any massive change like charging for weapons again, so you should be fine. And hopefully by then you will have more units in your collection to offset any changes.
Kind of based on what you are saying here is an example 1000 point army I would use
Ahriman - 110
10 x Rubrics with flamers - 190
Sorceror -85
10 x Rubrics with bolters, soulreaper etc. - 190
TS Dreadnought with twin LC and CC weapon -145
Scarab Occult Terminators - 205
Tgors - 65
Total 990
So you put Ahriman with the flamers, the Sorceor with the 10 bolter guys (he gives Lethal hits and cannot be targeted outside of 18') as your main front line, supported by the Terminators and Dread. The Tgors hold the back objective and try to general cabal points.
Based on what you said, I assume you have 20 Rubrics and an hellbrute. If you also own the combat partol that nets you the SoT, a infernal master (just use at the Sorceror) and the Tgors. You just need to get Ahriman, and the older model can be found pretty cheap on Ebay.
I lost my first game of 10th.
However, I've won the others, against SM (88-34, tabled), Necrons (82-31, tabled), Chaos Knights (80-22, tabled), and SM again (95-43, tabled).
My list is:
Magnus
Ahriman + 10 Rubric flamers
Exalted Sorcerer (LoFL) + 10 Rubric flamers
Sorcerer (Vortex) + 10 Rubric flamers
Termie Sorcerer (Crystal) + 10 Termies
10x Tzaangors
Rhino
I just keep my army in Devastating Wounds mode because it's easier to remember and because bypassing saves via mortals is better than the lethal hits. Since everything seems to get cover, and all the best targets have a 2+/4++ anyhow, mortals do a lot more work.
The Termies have Lethal Hits thanks to the leader, the strat gives them Psychic bolters, and standing next to Magnus makes them hit on 2s and wound on 5s into big things...which don't have an armour save because of sorcery. My last game I deleted a Redemptor dread T1 and then a Gladiator T2.
The other neat combo I've worked out is triple overwatch. Spend 1CP to overwatch with flamers. Use LoFL to overwatch again for 6 sorcery points and no CP. Use Ahriman to overwatch AGAIN for free.
I think it's a good use of 6 sorcery points, and if you'd rather use Ahriman to get a better ritual, doing it 2x is still quite nasty.
Speaking of Ahriman, the +1 to wound combos very well with the ignores armour sorcery to make his unit quite able to stand on its own apart from the rest of the army. I had a War Dog charge into the unit, and a combination of auto-hitting overwatch from flamers that reroll some wounds and then close combat that ignore saves killed the thing in his turn, allowing my unit to do whatever it wanted in my turn without being tied up.
I like the Vortex on the Sorcerer, spices up his psychic shooting to be able to kill Marines for each failed save, and Sustained Hits 3 is just wacky.
I prefer the Exalted Sorcerer on foot for his resurrection ability, and I stick that unit into the Rhino. Losing a model in the explosion is much less scary when it just gets back up.
I'm considering swapping the Tzaangors for Spawn, they're the same points and the Spawn seem a bit more survivable (W8 T5 Sv4+/5++ vs W10 T4 Sv6+/6++). Although the extra cabal point is nice. The larger footprint from 10 models is something I'm not sure about....easier to screen out deep strike, harder to get into cover or to get into another table quarter....
tneva82 wrote: Correct. No rule so far allows overwatch more than once per turn
Well, except for the Echoes From the Warp ritual that very clearly states you can use a strat on a unit "even if you have already used that Stratagem this phase."
Explicit permission overrides a restriction.
tneva82 wrote: Correct. No rule so far allows overwatch more than once per turn
Well, except for the Echoes From the Warp ritual that very clearly states you can use a strat on a unit "even if you have already used that Stratagem this phase."
Explicit permission overrides a restriction.
But Phase and Turn are not the same.
It could do with an FAQ, for sure, but as written Overwatch has the normal restriction (once per phase) and an extra one (once per turn). You can ignore one restriction-but nothing lets you ignore the other one.
Hello with the new errata : ’Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult Terminators – Ranged Weapons, WarpsmiteAdd ‘[PSYCHIC]’.
Does that mean than rubric and scarab occult weapons have now psychic and get all the time devastating wound if you wish?
tneva82 wrote: Correct. No rule so far allows overwatch more than once per turn
Well, except for the Echoes From the Warp ritual that very clearly states you can use a strat on a unit "even if you have already used that Stratagem this phase."
Explicit permission overrides a restriction.
It gives allowance for PHASE limit. Not TURN limit.
You can't use same stratagem more than once per PHASE. Ritual overrides that.
You can't overwatch more than once per TURN. Ritual doesn't override that.
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taetrius67 wrote: Hello with the new errata : ’Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult Terminators – Ranged Weapons, WarpsmiteAdd ‘[PSYCHIC]’.
Does that mean than rubric and scarab occult weapons have now psychic and get all the time devastating wound if you wish?
It's just warpsmite. Spell of unit leader.
Btw this is errata for physical cards. Pdf was correct all the time.
The tarantulas battery from astra militarum specifically says "you can target this unit with the fire overwatch Stratagem for 0cp.and can do so even if you have already used that Stratagem on a different unit this phase"
So there is definitely rules in the game than let you overwatch twice while referencing phase not turn so I'd think we can probably do so as well
tneva82 wrote: Correct. No rule so far allows overwatch more than once per turn
Well, except for the Echoes From the Warp ritual that very clearly states you can use a strat on a unit "even if you have already used that Stratagem this phase."
Explicit permission overrides a restriction.
It gives allowance for PHASE limit. Not TURN limit.
You can't use same stratagem more than once per PHASE. Ritual overrides that.
You can't overwatch more than once per TURN. Ritual doesn't override that.
Ok so explain this one to me. It's an identical situation and wording.
The Necron Hexmark says, "Once per turn, one unit from your army with this ability can be targeted with the Fire Overwatch Stratagem for 0CP, even if you have already used that Stratagem on a different unit this phase."
The explicit permission to use the strat multiple times per phase overrides the explicit restriction that OW can only be used once per turn.
Clearly, the Hexmark's ability works. And since the wording is the same, the ritual also works.
I have the feeling that the sentence in Overwatch is supposed to be "This stratagem cannot be used on the same unit more than once per turn." or "A unit cannot benefit from this stratagem more than once per turn." Because that would make all of the abilities which talk about "per phase" interact with Overwatch in a reasonable manner.
Umbralefic Crystal positioning - where do people like to put this?
After a recent game i've been thinking of combining it with a Landraider/Scarab unit - it's a lot of points to get tied up on a flank or entangled in wreckage, particularly when the land raider itself may be wanting to park up on an objetive.
A.T. wrote: Umbralefic Crystal positioning - where do people like to put this?
After a recent game i've been thinking of combining it with a Landraider/Scarab unit - it's a lot of points to get tied up on a flank or entangled in wreckage, particularly when the land raider itself may be wanting to park up on an objetive.
Thoughts?
Well, theirs two uses I can think of:
1) teleporting a flamer brick into range fir w crisping.
2) a "get out of melee free" card for a Terminator unit, as theirs no restrictions on being out of engagement range on it. So if they charge you to deny shooting, you can crystal out of combat and blast away without issue.
A.T. wrote: Umbralefic Crystal positioning - where do people like to put this?
After a recent game i've been thinking of combining it with a Landraider/Scarab unit - it's a lot of points to get tied up on a flank or entangled in wreckage, particularly when the land raider itself may be wanting to park up on an objetive.
Thoughts?
I took mine thinking I'd use it for an objective grab or quick reposition for saving them/stopping opponent.
What I have found to be doing most games is starting terms on board and turn 1 shoving them in the middle as a brick that I play around
A.T. wrote: Umbralefic Crystal positioning - where do people like to put this?
After a recent game i've been thinking of combining it with a Landraider/Scarab unit - it's a lot of points to get tied up on a flank or entangled in wreckage, particularly when the land raider itself may be wanting to park up on an objetive.
Thoughts?
Well, theirs two uses I can think of:
1) teleporting a flamer brick into range fir w crisping.
2) a "get out of melee free" card for a Terminator unit, as theirs no restrictions on being out of engagement range on it. So if they charge you to deny shooting, you can crystal out of combat and blast away without issue.
Flamers was the classic use but Ahrimann is such a sweet buff for flamers...guess i need. 2 flamer units?
xerxeskingofking wrote: 2) a "get out of melee free" card for a Terminator unit, as theirs no restrictions on being out of engagement range on it. So if they charge you to deny shooting, you can crystal out of combat and blast away without issue.
That is how I had been running it, but with the unit on the board by the time it had taken fire and absorbed a charge there wasn't much left to get out of melee.
Perhaps because I have been seeing more marines and no so much gaunts and similar chaff.
My list was as follows
Ahriman
10 x Rubrics w/ flamers and one soul reaper
Sorcerer
5 x Rubrics bolters and reaper
Sorcerer
5 x Rubrics bolters and reaper
Dreadnought LC/ML Land Raider
Term Sorcerer
10 x SoT with all the stuff
5 x SoT with flamers
DP with wings
The IG had two basilisks, a Dorn, Tank Com russ, a russ, a bunch of Krieg death riders, death strike missile, and a load of Krieg infantry.
We used the old tempest deck because it is hard to find the new deck as it is sold out everywhere and I don't want to pay an up charge for it on ebay. (the tempest deck is still usable, just change moral to battleshock and remove the card that had stuff happen in the psychic phase)
I went first
Thoughts on Units
Ahriman w/ 10 x Rubrics w/ flamers and one soul reaper: as previously mentions this is a must take. This guys put in work both shooting and overwatch to kill infantry trying to take an objective. Ahriman's ability to use Twist of Fate for free is so good. I started these guys in the landraider as I was worried about indirect shooting, but I think that was a mistake because I don't think you get Cabal Points if they are in a transport and that was 4 less I had both turn 1 and turn 2.
Sorcerer w/ 5 x Rubrics bolters and reaper - I think this is the best way to run bolter rubrics. The Sorcerer adds so much between the lethal hits, no targeting, and his shooting attack is actually quite potent against all but the toughest units. The only problem is this game one got stuck babysitting the home objective (they did get to kill some strategic reserve things) and it is a lot of points to babysit.
Term Sorcerer w. 10 x SoT with all the stuff- this is where I put the crystal and I used it turn one to put them in the midfield on an objective. They are really hard to shift and IG did not have anything that could hurt them in CC, so they just shot and sat on the objective. Personally I think I like two 5 man for three total better than the 10. I felt like most of my eggs were in that basket, and it was hard to hide them for turn 1 and place them well due to unit size. I am going to switch back to 3 x 5 man for the next game. Still use the Term Sorcerer with crystal to put 5 in mid board turn one, but then 2 more out of deep strike for more tactical flexibility. I have discovered in tenth it is much less important to have all the assets on turn 1 for an alpha strike.
5 x SoT - I bring the flamer on these guys because that is what is modeled, and it is not nearly as good as Soul Reaper. Coming out of deep strike in front of the enemy lines is pretty good.
Dreadnought LC/ML- not impressed with this. Its damage output is petty meager, and the Cabal Point rule is nice, but my dreadnought is usually out of position to use it, and the few times I did use it, it basically wouldn't matter. Maybe a CC one, but even then I don't think it is worth its points.
Land Raider- This thing is petty awesome. It is hard to take down, has good AT firepower (especially with twist of fate on the target) and being able to deliver units to CC is cool. It might be a bit overpriced for TS as it doesn't really benefit from any of our rules or strats. I am taking Magnus for my next game so this guy is coming out due to points, but I don't think it is a bad pick.
DP with wings- I really liked his mobility last game, but this game he flew up and killed some infiltrating horses, then got killed turn one when I failed two multi-melta saves (so used the 0 dam start) then took a vanquisher shot to the face (he hit 4+ wounded 2+, then I failed 4++ then failed 4++ with re-roll so a bit unlucky there). My opponent was really worried about the teleporting so really focused on him with his AT as opposed to the LR. I am going to give him a try next to Magnus who will soak up the AT shots and let the DP do his thing.
Hope this is helpful
Also to the questions in the thread prior about the Crystal, I use it to put SoT on the midboard for early scoring (5 or 10). I like that has the main use. You could use it with the flamers, however, I don't think the flamers are as good without Ahriman, and you always want Ahriman anyway, so it would have to be on a second squad, which starts to get pricey. And the rubrics are not nearly as tough as the SoT so if you use it on the flamers they will probably be dead in short order. Plus you would have to pay for a sorcerer to lead them (not efficent as you are wasting the lethal hits and 18' targeting) or bring an exhaled sorcerer, which personally I don't think are as good. I would stick with the SoT personally.
Preparing for a game against Necrons. I've got a Sorcerer with the crystal to get 10 flamers up into a good unit and turn off their saves turn 1, but a lot of people are putting Ahriman with them (I can see why).
If the flamers go with Ahriman, how are you delivering them, as a I don't want to walk 10 flamer marines up the board?
That does mean Ahriman is sat with 10 bolter marines instead though, which feels a bit wasteful.
Thoughts?
KirvesUK wrote: Preparing for a game against Necrons. I've got a Sorcerer with the crystal to get 10 flamers up into a good unit and turn off their saves turn 1, but a lot of people are putting Ahriman with them (I can see why).
If the flamers go with Ahriman, how are you delivering them, as a I don't want to walk 10 flamer marines up the board?
That does mean Ahriman is sat with 10 bolter marines instead though, which feels a bit wasteful.
Thoughts?
Unless you are playing planet bowling ball you are usually ok to walk them. I personally usually set them up behind cover then move, then use cabal to move again. That puts them with a 22' threat range (5 + 5 +12) They do tend to get hit hard back in that situation, but I have used overwatch with them every time, so basically get two rounds of shooting. They also need a bit of focused fire to kill them unless the enemy is really good at shooting. Be careful with the warriors because if you don't kill them in one go, they will regen hard and negate your attacks.
I also put them in a Land Raider once to deliver them up the field, and I guess you could use a Rhino, but I think they don't generate Cabal in a transport, and that is 4 points.
A sorcerer goes well on the bolters, with the 18" range protection. What else are you bringing?
Thanks you for the reply.
So originally I was thinking terminators X10 with a sorcerer to teleport in and hold the middle, the sorcerer easily pointing at a unit each turn for reroll 1s.
Magnus seems an obvious choice, get him near a front unit for the rerolls, possibly the terminators.
A unit of 10 flamers with a Sorcerer and crystal.
A unit of 10 bolters with Ahriman.
So potentially swap the sorcerer into the bolters, and walk Ahriman down the field with the flamers?
Is there any point in teleporting 10 bolter marines with the crystal at that point?
The last 465 points were currently on a Knight Lancer, I wanted to turn off the saves on a unit and charge it with a Knight. I realise this isn't the way a competitive list would work though and I'm sure open to suggestions on 465pts of something else!!!
You can reserve Ahriman and the flamer unit and walk on a table edge turn two to flame as well. Ahriman's +1 to wound is very clutch to have on the flamers.
KirvesUK wrote: Thanks you for the reply.
So originally I was thinking terminators X10 with a sorcerer to teleport in and hold the middle, the sorcerer easily pointing at a unit each turn for reroll 1s.
Magnus seems an obvious choice, get him near a front unit for the rerolls, possibly the terminators.
A unit of 10 flamers with a Sorcerer and crystal.
A unit of 10 bolters with Ahriman.
So potentially swap the sorcerer into the bolters, and walk Ahriman down the field with the flamers?
Is there any point in teleporting 10 bolter marines with the crystal at that point?
The last 465 points were currently on a Knight Lancer, I wanted to turn off the saves on a unit and charge it with a Knight. I realise this isn't the way a competitive list would work though and I'm sure open to suggestions on 465pts of something else!!!
That looks similar to what I would bring. I would put the crystal on the 10 man terminator squad to first turn deepstrike to get into position. The bolters don't want to deep strike, only advance to the midfield and take an objective and protect it with the 18' range reduction. Is this 2000? Seems light. The knight could be good I only have the Abrohant and I have not used it yet. I actually like the bolters as 5 man with a sorcerer better as you get more cabal and the extra 5 rubrics only add a few bolter shots.
Also you don't have any unit for backfield objective. You don't want to do that with 10 Rubrics with a character, as that would be really inefficent
The TOs at a the Tacoma Open (GW tournament/TOs) have supposedly ruled for that tournament only that you can multiple overwatch in a single phase (but not overwatch once in the move phase and once in the charge phase) with abilities/strats like the TS ritual.
Likely hints at what be in the first FAQ regarding this.
Thanks for the advice chaps.
Having mulled it over, I'll probably drop the Knight. I would love to try a Lancer against an enemy with a saving throw having been removed, but they are such a huge investment (again after two weeks of being cheap!!).
So Terminators with sorcerer, crystal, turn 1 get on something important.
Thinking Arhiman with 10 flamers in a land raider, move up ten, disembark 3, move 6 with the cabal points and threaten another middle point.
Mutilex seem too cheap to ignore, like a dreadnought for 100pts less?
Two sets of 5 bolters after you guys correctly suggested backfield control.
Include Magnus for obvious reasons, move him to give support to the Terminators with the 1cp pyschic weapons getting buffed.
It feels like a fairly aggressive and fast list, what would you change or spend the last 170pts on?
So let me get this straight.. I believe it's possible to activate the 'echo's from the warp' ritual on Magus at the start of the enemies shooting phase. I also activate the
'weaver of fates' ritual with another psyker and do this again with another psyker with the ' lord of forbidden lore' enhancement. So when the enemy starts shooting at magus with anti-tank weapons I could reroll 2 inv.saves and use the ' destined by fate' stratagem twice to reduce the damage to 0. In combination with his -1 damage thats a nice way to make him survive a lot of shooting turn one. Apart from the cabalistic points it only cost 1 CP, so can be done turn 1, when the enemy get's to start first.
Played against Custodies on Sunday. Ended up winning but it was close. They are really tough to take down, basically saving on a 4 against every kind of attack at the worst. I can see why they are a top army.
My list was as follows
Ahriman
10 x Rubrics w/ flamers and one soul reaper
Sorcerer
5 x Rubrics bolters and reaper
Sorcerer
5 x Rubrics bolters and reaper
Term Sorcerer
5 x SoT with all the stuff
5 x SoT with all the stuff
5 x SoT with flamers
DP with wings
Magnus
Some thoughts on the units:
Ahriman + flamers - This was the first game where I really felt the loss of the assault weapon on the flamers. After they took out a small 5 man squad, they then were pretty out of position and spent the rest of the game moving back into position, which they helped out in the final turn. This is also the first game where I did not use Twist of Fate on their targets (Magnus was using it), and they still worked really well even against Custodies. I think I still like using a transport for them to get them in position, or making sure they are in the middle as opposed to a flank if walking.
Sorcerer + 5 x Rubrics bolters and reaper - This was the first game I was a bit underwhelmed by these guys. But I think that was partly because they spent a lot of time moving around to objectives, Custodies don't have a lot of long range firepower so the 18' shoot reduction is kind of meha in this matchup, and the small amount of fighting they did do was against Custodies terminators, which are bonkers. I am thinking of only taking one of these units, maybe a larger one, and then some Tgors to hold the back objective as a cheaper alternative.
Terminators - I broke up the terminators into three units of 5. One had the crystal with a leader and the other two were just normal. While the 10 man is more efficient, I like the flexibility of 3 five man. Turn one the first unit jumped to the center and took an objective effectively scoring me 10 points of primary for two turns, and two secondaries. Considering I only won by 6 that was huge. The other two units came out of deep strike, which was great because I put them exactly where they were needed and again scored me some points. I think I am going to stick with the 3 x 5.
DP with Wings - I still thing this guy is an underrated gem. The ability to move around the battlefield is clutch. In this game my opponent went first and after the end of his turn I used the ability to put the DP in the back corner threatening his home objective. He had to turn around a big powerful squad lead by trajon to deal with it, which ultimately did, but it put trajon's squad out of position for essentially the remainder of the game. He also hits pretty good, and is reasonably tough, surviving Trajon and his squad attacks with the help of 0 damage strat, to fall back and make them move even further away from the fight.
Magnus - holy crap is this guy awesome. He is probably like 40 points too cheap. the Custodies player was forced to use his 2CP -1 damage strat every turn against Magnus' shooting, and while it did mitigate quite a bit of damage, Magnus still put out the hurt. Especially using twist of fate on his target which is not as great against Custodies, but still helped out a ton. He is also really hard to take down, although the Custodies player did not have a lot of AT shooting. He was finally felled when he wiffed on his CC attack (rolled 5 ones to hit) and then the character in the squad he was facing got lucky rolling 4 6's for Devastating Wounds (3 dam each) and was able to finish Magnus (he had lost a few wounds earlier). Overall very worth it.
I am thinking of bring a unit of 6 flamers of Tzeentch allies for my next game. Same weapon stats as the rubrics, but they have built in deep strike, and will still benefit from Twist of Fate. Hope this was helpful
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KirvesUK wrote: Thanks for the advice chaps.
Having mulled it over, I'll probably drop the Knight. I would love to try a Lancer against an enemy with a saving throw having been removed, but they are such a huge investment (again after two weeks of being cheap!!).
So Terminators with sorcerer, crystal, turn 1 get on something important.
Thinking Arhiman with 10 flamers in a land raider, move up ten, disembark 3, move 6 with the cabal points and threaten another middle point.
Mutilex seem too cheap to ignore, like a dreadnought for 100pts less?
Two sets of 5 bolters after you guys correctly suggested backfield control.
Include Magnus for obvious reasons, move him to give support to the Terminators with the 1cp pyschic weapons getting buffed.
It feels like a fairly aggressive and fast list, what would you change or spend the last 170pts on?
for the last 170 I would think about cheap chaff to hold the backfield, or maybe flamer of tzeentch to deep strike flame attack.
KirvesUK wrote: Really interesting write-up there. I did look at flamers actually, do they still get to deep strike closer than 9 inch like they used to?
They can in the daemon detachment I believe but not as allied
Has anyone here had any success allying in daemons? I'm currently putting together a list with a Lord of Change, Changecaster, and unit of Pink Horrors.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Has anyone here had any success allying in daemons? I'm currently putting together a list with a Lord of Change, Changecaster, and unit of Pink Horrors.
Lord of change is great, changecaster is kinda unplayable (as are all our heralds really) and pinks can be decent backfield screener, but i'd rather bring blues for the infiltrator utility
Oh and Changeling is almost an autotake IMO (if youre gonna soup that is)
ArcaneHorror wrote: Has anyone here had any success allying in daemons? I'm currently putting together a list with a Lord of Change, Changecaster, and unit of Pink Horrors.
Kairos + changeling is great utility
I've been trying an aggressive addition with changeling and 2 squads of 3 flamers with attached Exalted's. Neat little package for 345points that gives changeling(amazing! Always take) and quite a bit of mobility/antichaffe with flamers and 6 pseudo Las cannons on the exalteds. There is enough room for another unit of 3 flamers + Exalted I might actually add in or some horrors for obj camping, I've been liking it so far.
Well. First go at desolators and silly amount of firepower Even terminators were being melted by the firepower.
Though it wasn't so much those than 12" deep strike bubble prevention from infiltrators that cost me. Might have been better off putting less stuff and just ram more threats at once.
Really miss the teleport spell.
Sorcerer lord in terminator armour made terminators surprisingly good overwatch unit as every hit was also automatic wound.
If we have deep strike terminators and a unit with a crystal, do people really rate the output of 3 flamers and an exalted jumping in over, say, a maulerfiend output?
My list is
Magnus
Ahriman + 10 Flamers
Exalted + 10 Flamers (with LoFL)
Sorcerer + 5 Flamers (with Crystal)
Sorcerer + 5 Flamers (with Vortex)
Termie + 10 Termies (2 cannons and 2 missiles)
Changeling
I nearly won against tripe Forgefiends, but I hadn't seen it before so was unprepared for the insane damage that list puts out, plus a follow-up punch of possessed that gave Magnus enough mortals to kill him.
My main issue that I'm trying to figure out is deployment positioning, specifically with Ahriman. Turn off saves + autohit + wound on 5+ means his unit will delete what it points at. I'm trying to predict the battlefield and put Ahriman into the thickest flank, with the Sorcerer squad on the lighter flank so as to avoid the enemy's big guns. The Sorcerer's Sustained 3 with 2d6 shots at S6 D2 does a lot of work!
The 2nd Sorcerer is for a bit of backfield play, where I can kick a small objective holder squad off the enemy stronghold, and make Engage and BEL easier to achieve.
I've played 10 games of 10e so far, lost the above-mentioned CSM match as well as my 1st game of 10e to Votann (but I'm sure I'll do better in the rematch).
So far I've beat SM, Necrons, Chaos Knights, SM, SM, Guard, World Eaters, and Sisters.
Missions are sometimes wacky, but I think the amount of firepower that flamers bring makes the book very strong. I also think that the limited 12" range of flamers isn't that bad. Even when I'm out of range, there's a good chance I will want to do a mission/secondary action, so I'm not giving up all that much because I'm too far away from a target anyhow.
so, im thinking of adding some more anti-tank firepower to my army as i can no longer rely on mortal wound spam to deal with vehicles, and im looking at a hellbrute as reasonably cheap option. Im planning to stick lascannons on it's right side, but im not sure about the left arm. Do i stick missles on it for pure ranged firepower, or a fist so it can still get up close if needed and i'm more likely to benefit form its cabal point regen ability?
xerxeskingofking wrote: so, im thinking of adding some more anti-tank firepower to my army as i can no longer rely on mortal wound spam to deal with vehicles, and im looking at a hellbrute as reasonably cheap option. Im planning to stick lascannons on it's right side, but im not sure about the left arm. Do i stick missles on it for pure ranged firepower, or a fist so it can still get up close if needed and i'm more likely to benefit form its cabal point regen ability?
I have two LC/ML Dreadnoughts (the actual forgeworld TS ones as well) and their firepower is very underwhelming. The twin-linked is not as good as an extra shot but a long stretch. I would use the hellburte with a the LC or MM and a CC weapon if I were to use one built from scratch. For AT in my opinion you are better off with mutilith, or even a predator in my opinion. We still struggle with heavy armor in my opinion, but Magnus and Ahriman +flamers can do a lot of damage to a vehicle with twist of fate. Also a soulgrinder ally might not be a bad choice
xerxeskingofking wrote: so, im thinking of adding some more anti-tank firepower to my army as i can no longer rely on mortal wound spam to deal with vehicles, and im looking at a hellbrute as reasonably cheap option. Im planning to stick lascannons on its right side, but im not sure about the left arm. Do i stick missles on it for pure ranged firepower, or a fist so it can still get up close if needed and i'm more likely to benefit from its cabal point regen ability?
I started testing out 2 wardog stalkers for some extra firepower in my list, for 135pts each I feel like they are really valuable
xerxeskingofking wrote: so, im thinking of adding some more anti-tank firepower to my army as i can no longer rely on mortal wound spam to deal with vehicles, and im looking at a hellbrute as reasonably cheap option. Im planning to stick lascannons on its right side, but im not sure about the left arm. Do i stick missles on it for pure ranged firepower, or a fist so it can still get up close if needed and i'm more likely to benefit from its cabal point regen ability?
I started testing out 2 wardog stalkers for some extra firepower in my list, for 135pts each I feel like they are really valuable
I'am going to test the following list.
Ahriman with 10 rubric marines (bolters)
Ex sorcerer (U.Crystal) with 10 rubric marines with warp flamers
Terminator sorcerer (Lord of the forbidden lore) with 10 terminators
Magnus
3x vortex beasts
I like the beasts with magnus combination. The enemy cannot ignore magnus but needs a lot of anti-MC shooting to take him down. Meanwhile the vortex beast keep shooting beam attacks. I probably need to park a single vortex beast on the home objective, and that's kind of expensive but not easy to remove when magnus and two other vortex beasts are moving closer to the enemy.
I think if you go with vehicles or MC you need to bring more or simply none.
Hi chaps.i played Necrons tonight and got pummeled on points. Called it at the end of turn 3. I had a good chance of smashing most of the remaining Necrons, Magnus and Vortex beast untouched, but no way of catching the point deficit.
I ran;
2 X 5 Rubrics holding objectives
Magnus
1 X 10 terminators with attached Sorcerer (crystal)
Vortex beast
10 flamers in a land raider with Ahriman
War dog Moirax with conversion beams
Thoughts:
Flamers got overwatched leaving the land raider turn1. Lost 6. Even with what was left, I could see the potential with Ahriman attached. Keep.
Land raider itself. Not sure. Got smashed down to lowest bracket turn 1 and didn't really affect the game. Swap for a Rhino?
Rubrics. Held objectives, not much to say otherwise.
Magnus. Buffed the terminators turn 1, then got separated from them. Didn't even get scratched. Did he get his points back? If we played more than 3 turns, absolutely.
War dog - great shooting, felt bad it didn't give cabal points, but was pretty solid.
Vortex beast. Too cheap at 145 pts, can't see it lasting at that price. Nice to be a threat in two phases, we just got him stuck at the back dealing with a Necron unit that teleported. Probably needed chucking up the board.
Was the 125pt sorcerer in the terminator unit worth it? He carried the crystal and have rerolls on an enemy unit. Not entirely convinced though.
If I drop the land raider I can get a Rhino and another beast. Would I miss the anti tank lascannons. Probably not if I have a additional beast.
Although I'm familiar with Necrons, it was so very hard to fight through 3 blocks of 20 warriors. They really put a lot of models back on the table each turn. Big damage is fairly common on their units and extra saves, feel no pains, Invulnerables make even our firepower much less effective.
I think Thousand Sons are really quite interesting to use in tenth, compared to other armies that seem a bit point'n'click. I've not learnt them particularly well yet, but I'm assuming I should be able to beat Necrons at some point soon
Previous post, thanks for the review I agree with your assessments.
So, I had a 4000 point team battle on Saturday, with TS and Chaos Knights v two IG armies. The IG had six eathshakers (three guns and three basilisks), 3 sentinels , some horses, 5 Russ tanks, a ton of mortars and heavy weapon teams, and lots of 20 man bricks of infantry, two krieg ones arriving with the drills.
My knight ally had two big knights (desacrator and abhorrant) 4 dogs, and then some daemon allies in a LoC and Blood crushers (he actually borrowed those 2 from me)
My list was as follows
Ahriman
10 x Rubrics w/ flamers and one soul reaper
Sorcerer
10 x Rubrics bolters and reaper
5 x SoT with all the stuff
5 x SoT with all the stuff
5 x SoT with flamers
DP with wings
10 x Tzgors
Magnus
and 6 flamers of tzeentch.
Our strategy was to put pressure on the guard with the big units, then bring in the terminators and flamers from deepstrike. They went first. The first turn we took a pounding from all the artillery with the sentinels support and all the shooting. Turn one we lost the blood crushers, one war dog, and the Tzgors in the back. We moved into position turn one, didn't do much damage, only killing one earthshaker, the sentinels and some infantry. Turn two shooting was pretty rough as well, we lost the Knight Abhorant, and two war dogs and I lost most of Ahriman's squad. However we were in position to strike on our turn two and with the terminators deep strike and the flamers, plus shooting/charges from Magnus, the Knight Desecrator, the daemon prince, and LoC did massive damage and tied up most of their units. We did not score our first two turns, but starting turn 3 we were in a dominant position and maxed primary and scored a bunch of secondaries. Game called at top of 5 when they had nothing but a few out of position infantry units left. We still had full health Magnus, badly wounded knight, most terminators, flamers, full health LoC and wounded DP left. Plus my Rubrics which sat and did nothing.
Thoughts on opponents: I saw on Auspex tactics that Guard don't have an above 50% win rate. I find this hard to digest as their indirect fire is crazy. You basically can't start infantry on the board. And with the sentinels the artillery is really kill-y. Maybe Eldar, GSC, Imperial Knights and Custodies are that good. The lethal hits on indirect fire is a bit much to be honest. Also playing against that much indirect fire is not really engaging as they just shoot us to death until we can engage their lines and wipe them out if we have anything left. They guy who brought all the artillery is Krieg theme, and played something similar in 9th as he want's to represent a Krieg siege force, so it is not like he was power gaming. But still the indirect is not a lot of fun.
Thoughts on Allies: The Chaos Knights battle shock rules are very sub-par. I don't think they mattered once during the game. the big Knights are really tough to take down, and that is without the FnP the Imperial's get. The LoC did not do much but hold one flank, and its shooting was good, but you need to use the hazardous version every time. The Bloodcrushers got wiped turn 1, so there is that. However they did soak up 5 of the eathshakers on turn 1 so they earned their points that way.
Thoughts on my list:
Ahriman w/ 10 x Rubrics w/ flamers and one soul reaper: Solid as always, however, I will say if you foot them, they are very vulnerable to indirect fire. In an all comers list where you could face IG, Eldar, Tau, or SM with indirect you will probably need to put them in a transport or even reserve them to come in on a flank (but either way you lost 4 Cabal turn one). It sucks because armies without indirect the the transport is unnecessary as they can advance up in cover. Tough call.
Sorcerer w/ 10 x Rubrics bolters and reaper- I wanted to try to put a 10 man down but for the second game in a row they sat back, enjoyed not being able to be targeted, and they did not really do anything. And the two times they did get in range, the extra bolter shots are not worth 95 points. I would only run these guys in 5s.
5 x SoT with all the stuff, squads- So this is the first game I did not bring the terminator sorcerer with the crystal leading one of them. I actually think it may be possible to get away with not using that. I put all three in deepstrike and having three units deepstrike in on turn 2 was difficult for the opponents to deal with (I actually Rapid Ingress one of them, which took shooting, but was in a better position to charge). I think when I play TS again I am going to try more games without the terminator sorcerer.
DP with wings- As I have stated many times, I love this guy. Turn 1 he was able to teleport to the far right flank, and even after failing the 9 inch charge, he was blocked well from their AT (which did need to shoot the Knights) and is tough enough that the eathshakers did not even try to hit him. All the small arms bounced right off. He then moved into their lines, and with d4 from the enhancement, crushed the right flank killing a russ, a baslisk, and a earthshaker platform, finally finishing up killing a bunch of guardsmen. I really think there is a place for him in most lists as the ability to teleport on turn one is massive. And I have yet to get the 9 inch charge, which if you get lucky will make him a real powerhouse.
10 x Tzgors- they seem to squishy for 65 points. This game was always going to be rough on them with all the indirect, but still they went down fast.
Magnus- Ok so he is definetly 20-30 points to cheap. This game they did not even hurt him. What was really clutch in this game was using the move twice on him turn one so he was like 3" away from their line. His shooting is really good if you use twist of fate as well. With guard not able to fight him in CC, putting him in their line that early was probably the game winning move. And he cuts through anything that does not reduce damage. His sweep attack is good at clearing hoards of guardsmen as well. If you want competitive, he is probably a must take at this point.
6 flamers of tzeentch- I like these guys a lot. Only 130 for 6 and they have natural deepstrike. I think they are an excellent alternative to a second squad of flamer rubrics. Also they are three wounds, which really made a difference against the artillery being d2.
This will probably be my last report type post for TS. I just got my dark commune for CSM and I am looking forward to playing CSM for a bit, then probably Eldar for a while. If I play anymore TS games I will post them. I certainly hope others will as well as I enjoy reading those.
DP with wings- As I have stated many times, I love this guy. Turn 1 he was able to teleport to the far right flank, and even after failing the 9 inch charge, he was blocked well from their AT (which did need to shoot the Knights) and is tough enough that the eathshakers did not even try to hit him. All the small arms bounced right off. He then moved into their lines, and with d4 from the enhancement, crushed the right flank killing a russ, a baslisk, and a earthshaker platform, finally finishing up killing a bunch of guardsmen. I really think there is a place for him in most lists as the ability to teleport on turn one is massive. And I have yet to get the 9 inch charge, which if you get lucky will make him a real powerhouse.
I honestly don't see how, even with the enhancement, he's killing that much stuff. You said he didn't get a charge T1, so that means he's in combat at the top of T2. So let's give the benefit of the doubt and say you are in combat for 2 rounds, yours and the enemy's DP Strike profile is A6 WS2+ S9 AP-2 D4
A Leman Russ is T11 W13 Sv2+ Hit 10 times (for 2 rounds of combat), wound 3.33 times, Russ fails 1.67 save, you do 4 or 8 dmg, which isn't enough to kill the Russ. Even if you get a DevWounds in there, for a total 8 or 12 dmg, that's still not enough to kill the Russ. You had to get really REALLY unstatistically lucky to roll this well.
A Basilisk is T9 W11 Sv3+ Hit 10 times (for 2 rounds of combat), wound 5 times, Basilisk fails 3.33 saves, you do 12dmg. So the DP can reliably kill a light vehicle over 2 rounds of combat, but again, this is just the average, so expect for you to wound less sometimes or for the enemy to make more 5+ saves.
Not sure what an Earthshaker Platform is, but I assume it's the same as a Basilisk (the name of the gun on the Basilisk is earthshaker?) See above. I'd say it's lucky to kill two light vehicles over the course of 4 rounds of combat.
I don't think it will be nearly as good for other people, and congratulations on having Tzeentch bless your dice rolls, I guess!
Quick question: Echoes from the Warp says "you can select this psyker's unit at the target of this stratagem". Does that mean a character psyker not attached to a unit can use it on themselves?
DP with wings- As I have stated many times, I love this guy. Turn 1 he was able to teleport to the far right flank, and even after failing the 9 inch charge, he was blocked well from their AT (which did need to shoot the Knights) and is tough enough that the eathshakers did not even try to hit him. All the small arms bounced right off. He then moved into their lines, and with d4 from the enhancement, crushed the right flank killing a russ, a baslisk, and a earthshaker platform, finally finishing up killing a bunch of guardsmen. I really think there is a place for him in most lists as the ability to teleport on turn one is massive. And I have yet to get the 9 inch charge, which if you get lucky will make him a real powerhouse.
I honestly don't see how, even with the enhancement, he's killing that much stuff. You said he didn't get a charge T1, so that means he's in combat at the top of T2. So let's give the benefit of the doubt and say you are in combat for 2 rounds, yours and the enemy's
DP Strike profile is A6 WS2+ S9 AP-2 D4
A Leman Russ is T11 W13 Sv2+
Hit 10 times (for 2 rounds of combat), wound 3.33 times, Russ fails 1.67 save, you do 4 or 8 dmg, which isn't enough to kill the Russ. Even if you get a DevWounds in there, for a total 8 or 12 dmg, that's still not enough to kill the Russ. You had to get really REALLY unstatistically lucky to roll this well.
A Basilisk is T9 W11 Sv3+
Hit 10 times (for 2 rounds of combat), wound 5 times, Basilisk fails 3.33 saves, you do 12dmg. So the DP can reliably kill a light vehicle over 2 rounds of combat, but again, this is just the average, so expect for you to wound less sometimes or for the enemy to make more 5+ saves.
Not sure what an Earthshaker Platform is, but I assume it's the same as a Basilisk (the name of the gun on the Basilisk is earthshaker?)
See above. I'd say it's lucky to kill two light vehicles over the course of 4 rounds of combat.
I don't think it will be nearly as good for other people, and congratulations on having Tzeentch bless your dice rolls, I guess!
Well no that was though the whole game. He was in combat turn 2, 3, and 4. An earthshaker plateform is just the gun, it has 6 wounds so is not nearly as durable. Also he had the enhancement with to make is attacks d4, so it doesn't take much to destroy a basilisk or LR. Also, as in every game, some of the units had been hurt already. Yea there probably were some good rolls, but that is warhammer in general. Also math hammer is all well and good, but 2+ to his is pretty reliable. It may average out at 5 hits, but that would be over hundred of rolls. Also I may have removed the LR's save, don't quite remember, which also makes a huge difference. I still think it is a good choice, even for just the disruption of him being in the lines, probably less so without the d4.
xeen wrote: Also I may have removed the LR's save, don't quite remember, which also makes a huge difference. I still think it is a good choice, even for just the disruption of him being in the lines, probably less so without the d4.
Oh yes, I didn't even think about this one, that would be a great move into a Russ.
And my math did take into account multiple rounds of combat.
I'm also not quite sure that you're understanding averages. WS2+ with 6 attacks means that, EVERY TIME HE ATTACKS, he will drop one. Of course, this isn't perfectly accurate. Sometimes you're hit with everything and sometimes you'll miss with 3 in a single roll. For example, my Magnus with 7 attacks and wounding on 2s pretty much every single roll gets only 5 successful to wound rolls, which then the enemy gets to save against. That's pretty statistical. Rarely does my Magnus get 7 successful wound rolls from 7 attacks.
Still not sold on the idea that 200pts is purely distraction, especially since he's not all that survivable.
xeen wrote: Also I may have removed the LR's save, don't quite remember, which also makes a huge difference. I still think it is a good choice, even for just the disruption of him being in the lines, probably less so without the d4.
Oh yes, I didn't even think about this one, that would be a great move into a Russ.
And my math did take into account multiple rounds of combat.
I'm also not quite sure that you're understanding averages. WS2+ with 6 attacks means that, EVERY TIME HE ATTACKS, he will drop one. Of course, this isn't perfectly accurate. Sometimes you're hit with everything and sometimes you'll miss with 3 in a single roll. For example, my Magnus with 7 attacks and wounding on 2s pretty much every single roll gets only 5 successful to wound rolls, which then the enemy gets to save against. That's pretty statistical. Rarely does my Magnus get 7 successful wound rolls from 7 attacks.
Still not sold on the idea that 200pts is purely distraction, especially since he's not all that survivable.
Yea, twist of fate helps a lot. Also I have had many games where 2+ hits with every attack, in every fight over the battle. I have also had Magnus wiff and roll a bunch of ones to hit and wound several times in a row. That was the point I was making, is that percentages will average out over time, but they are pretty meaningless to an individual game. Also let me be clear, I am not saying you want to build your list around this guy. You want to build your list around, Ahirman with flamers, Magnus, SoT and sorcerers with rubrics. He is really competing for you remainder points, against things like Forgefied, Tanks, etc. Also if you are going pure damage, you would just take a mutilith over him any day of the week. However, I think he can have a place in a list depending on your play style and other units brought. Sometimes his value is not even from doing damage. Take a look at my post for the game against Custodes. He didn't kill squat that game. However, his ability to be basically anywhere within 9" of the enemy every turn makes him really maneuverable. So in that game I put him in the back, threatening the home objective, and the Custode player had to move one of his better units back to engage with it, which basically took that unit out of the game due to positioning. Yea sometimes that won't work or won't matter all the time, and but sometimes it will. Also, unlike a lot of other support units, he brings 2 Cabal and can use Cabal abilities like doombolt or twist of fate. My main point is I wouldn't just write this guy off, like say the Dreadnoughts, which are very much just out competed with the Mutilith.
However he is certainly not a must take if going competitive, like Magnus.
dreadblade wrote: Quick question: Echoes from the Warp says "you can select this psyker's unit at the target of this stratagem". Does that mean a character psyker not attached to a unit can use it on themselves?
dreadblade wrote: Quick question: Echoes from the Warp says "you can select this psyker's unit at the target of this stratagem". Does that mean a character psyker not attached to a unit can use it on themselves?
Anyone?
Barring an FAQ saying otherwise, I'd say yes. A Psyker not attached to a unit is still a unit in and of themself.
so, i have a 1000 point game coming up next week vs chaos deamons. I know my opponent is planning to take a bloodthister. what sort of options and cunning ploys can i use to help counter it?
edit: no longer on mobile so i can actaully type out more now.
i'm expecting to face a mostly khornate deamon force of:
Bloodthrister
bloodmaster
10 bloodletters
10 hounds
6 bloodcrushers
a few nurglings to soak up some points.
my current list plan is mostly dictated by what i have, but it runs:
ahriman on disc
exalted sorcerer
Infernal Master
tzanngor shaman
2x5 rubrics with bolters+gatling
5 rubics with flamers+ gatling
5 scarabs (hellfire, plus either gatling or flamer)
xerxeskingofking wrote: so, i have a 1000 point game coming up next week vs chaos deamons. I know my opponent is planning to take a bloodthister. what sort of options and cunning ploys can i use to help counter it?
edit: no longer on mobile so i can actaully type out more now.
i'm expecting to face a mostly khornate deamon force of:
Bloodthrister
bloodmaster
10 bloodletters
10 hounds
6 bloodcrushers
a few nurglings to soak up some points.
my current list plan is mostly dictated by what i have, but it runs:
ahriman on disc
exalted sorcerer
Infernal Master
tzanngor shaman
2x5 rubrics with bolters+gatling
5 rubics with flamers+ gatling
5 scarabs (hellfire, plus either gatling or flamer)
10 tzanngor
3 enlightened.
Bring more flamers if you can. They are a nightmare for CC armies, especially with Ahriman. I don't like the Infernal Master, I think a normal sorcerer or exhaled is better. Against daemons you don't really need to worry about twist of fate, so probably doombolt every turn.
Made a few tweaks to my list, and I think I'm fairly settled on what I'll be bringing.
Magnus
Ahriman + 10 Rubric Flamers
Sorcerer (Scrolls) + 5 Rubric Flamers
Master (Crystal) + 5 Rubric Flamers
Termie Sorcerer (Vortex) + 10 Terminators
Rhino (for Ahriman and friends)
Changeling
3x Flamers of Tzeentch
War Dog Huntsman
Tried out a Brigand + Huntsman, and found the Brigand too vulnerable to enemy shooting. I don't feel bad if the Huntsman doesn't shoot while it's creeping up and hiding behind terrain, but with the Brigand I want to get my money's worth! In addition, I think Ahriman's big unit REALLY needs a Rhino for protection and for movement. I just keep deploying him in an area that doesn't have a lot of action, so being able to mitigate that error will help me a lot.
I like the Master instead of a second Sorcerer because I want a unit to DS, which negates the Sorcerer's ability anyhow, and the Master gives me an extra Cabal Pt.
Played a game on Friday against a guy who claimed he hadn't lost a 10e game yet...and he's been playing as Death Guard. His list was:
3 PBCs Unit of 3 Lawn Mowers (30 wounds??!?)
2 Predator Lascannons
Some sorta DG infantry character all by his lonesome
Double Cannon Knight (4D6 + 12 shots per turn!)
GUO 3 little Nurglings
Over the course of the game, Magnus killed the GUO, a Predator, and the wounded Knight.
Termies killed a PBC, did like 16 wounds on the Knight in shooting, and soaked a lot of fire. They also did about 25 wounds to the Lawn Mower unit, thanks to Psychic Bolters, Magnus aura, and No Armour Save. *pop*
The Huntsman managed to kill 2 PBCs over the game. Brigand did some wounds to a unit but died because it was exposed to the Knight.
It ended with me having lost Ahriman's bodyguards (but not him) and the Master's bodyguard (but not him). 92-25 my favour.
Highlight of the game was when the Knight shot at the Terminators in cover, giving me something like 25 wounds from the Cannons...and I failed 1. Then the stubber shot at them and I failed 4 out of 5 saves! Opponent was miffed I hadn't rolled those in the other order.
In other news, I always just keep my army in DevWounds for the entire game. Less to keep track of, and sprinklings of mortal wounds seems pretty good. I've calculated that Ahriman has a 70% chance to do at least 1 DevWound for 3dmg in the Fight Phase, and Magnus has a 97% chance on the Strike Profile for at least 1, while he's gonna do about 2 in the sweep.
Lorex wrote: Hey all.
How do you guys play in a 1000pts?
I played against castodes and got a** kicked.
How do you build ur lists for lower point levels?
Thousand sons is hard at 1000 as our Cabals don't scale down to well. Just bring Magnus and you will be fine. Lol. I would say that the flamers and terminators are a must and at 1000 you can't really bring any units that don't generate Cabal points.
Lord_Valorion wrote: What are good anti tank choice besides the never available mutalith?
Twist of Fate + Psychic S5 AP1 Bolters with full rerolls.
Lascannons (Land Raider, Predator, Helbrute).
Helfyre Missiles / Ectoplasma (against T10 or lower pref.)
Vindicators.
Maulerfiend / Helbrute in melee.
Magnus in general.
Lord_Valorion wrote: What are good anti tank choice besides the never available mutalith?
Twist of Fate + Psychic S5 AP1 Bolters with full rerolls. Lascannons (Land Raider, Predator, Helbrute). Helfyre Missiles / Ectoplasma (against T10 or lower pref.) Vindicators. Maulerfiend / Helbrute in melee. Magnus in general.
I'll second the psychic Termie bolters. Next to Magnus (and assuming you have a couple Soulreapers and a Character and rerolls), that's 48 shots in double-tap, 46 hits (8 of them lethal), 29ish wounds against T10+ (~4 of those are mortals), and a few missiles. And all of those are sorta mortals, unless the target has an invuln. The other one is Ahriman with 10 flamers, get a free Twist and then wound on 5s with the tank getting no armour save. 35 hits on average, 14 wounds on average against T8+
Thousand Sons Land Raider [250pts]: Havoc launcher, Inferno combi-weapon
++ Total: [1,080pts, 9 Cabal Points] ++
Initial thoughts:
1) Having the Infernal Master with Crystal lead the Rubrics allows them to teleport onto an objective turn 1 and then control the centre of the board.
2) The Scarabs are really tanky (and seen as quite a threat) when supported by the DP.
3) I still need to work out how to reliably get the DP into melee without getting him killed first.
4) I also need to get better at positioning Ahriman so he can be where he needs to be without getting shot off the board.
For a higher points game I think I'll ally a Chaos Knight Desecrator and see how that pans out.
I use this list at 1,100pts. I think it would be better with a character who can lead the Scarabs though, and I've yet to see Ahriman and the DP earn their points. Having sad that, I have won 2 out of 2.
I just played an event and faced imperial knights 2 out of 3 games. It still feels like a miserable match up for thousand sons. Does anyone have any good tech against them?
Or does anyone have any fun combos to just try out while suffering against the meta lol. I’ve been considering cabal spam with a helbrute nearby to generate more cabals
Drdotts wrote: I just played an event and faced imperial knights 2 out of 3 games. It still feels like a miserable match up for thousand sons. Does anyone have any good tech against them?
Or does anyone have any fun combos to just try out while suffering against the meta lol. I’ve been considering cabal spam with a helbrute nearby to generate more cabals
Magnus can kill a big boy per turn with shooting+melee. Both Magnus and the Termie block have a 2+ save in cover against one of the most popular builds, the double-cannon knight, so even though he's getting like 26 shots on average, you can probably get away with losing a single Termie or 3 wounds on Magnus.
Ignore armor on a big boy, blast it with Termie Psychic bolters, and follow up with Magnus for a dead Knight.
Use Ahriman's free strat in the fight phase to take out an Armiger. Assuming a few bodyguards died to shooting, you're still getting like 6-8 wound from the squad and then damage 3 attacks from Ahriman.
Bring an allied Changeling. He's great for many secondaries, as well as for holding your back objective if you move away.
My current Enhancements are Vortex on the Termie Sorcerer (it seems pretty good for his smite, and it also works well with his bolter and his melee), Scrolls on the backfield sorcerer (since he can't get shot he'll generate for longer), and Crystan on an Infernal Master (who yeets a min-flamer squad somewhere).
Thanks for the feedback, but please tell in what world Magnus only loses 3 wounds to 2 helverins, 2 warglaives, a crusader, warden and errant. We’re obviously playing different versions of the game.
Drdotts wrote: Thanks for the feedback, but please tell in what world Magnus only loses 3 wounds to 2 helverins, 2 warglaives, a crusader, warden and errant. We’re obviously playing different versions of the game.
I don't know about Magnus only losing 3 wounds, but you can probably have him survive in general if you:
Always have Impossible Form active.
Turn a failed save into Damage 0 with Destined by Fate.
Turn a second failed save into Damage 0 with Destined by Fate + Echoes of the Warp.
Turn a third failed save into Damage 0 with Destined by Fate + Echoes of the Warp + Lord of Forbidden Lore.
Re-roll a failed save with Weaver of Fates.
Re-roll a second failed save with a Command Re-roll.
(Re-roll a third failed save with Weaver of Fates + Echoes of the Warp if you didn't use EotW in combination with DbF above.)
(Re-roll a fourth failed save with Weaver of Fates + Echoes of the Warp + Lord of Forbidden Lore, if you didn't use EotW and LoFL in combination with DbF above.)
Of course, even all these tricks up Magnus' sleeve won't save him if your opponent rolls well / you roll poorly, but it should do the trick.
Edit: Did some quick math on the knight-list you mention.
2 Helverins will on average do 8,88 D2 (A.Autocannons) wounds before saves, their Anti-Fly 2+ is really dangerous. Luckily you can potentially hide from them.
2 Warglavies will on average do 1,78 D6 -1 (Thermal Spear) wounds before saves.
1 Errant will on average do 1,88 D1 (Icarus AC) wounds + 1,78 D6 -1 (Thermal Cannon) wounds before saves.
1 Warden will on average do 1,88 D1 (Icarus AC) wounds + 4 D1 (Gatling) wounds before saves.
1 Crusader will on average do 1,88 D1 (Icarus AC) wounds + 4 D1 (Gatling) + 2,89 D2 (R-F BC) wounds before saves.
Math isn't 100%, but you get the gist of it.
I didn't account to all the various small-arms guns (stuff with few shots that wound Magnus on 5+ and 6+) nor any potential rules that might come into effect like Aggressive Assault on the Errant, because these are not necessarily active.
This is also with the entire IK-list shooting at Magnus (outside Melta-range), which probably won't happen and if it does you're playing with way to little LoS-blocking terrain.
All 3 big knights also have Icarus Autocannons which your opponent might not necessarily field. The other 2 options (Ironstorm Missile Pod/Stormspear Rocket Pod) are inferior against Magnus specifically, so if he fields those, the maths improve in his favor.
All in all, you're looking at on average 13,64 D1 wounds (Icarus AC/Gatling), 11,77 D2* wounds (A. Autocannons/R-F Battlecannons) and 3,56 D6 -1 wounds (Thermal Spears/Cannons) before saves.
(*Majority of these come from the 2 Armiger Helverins. Watch out for those.)
After saves you're looking at 6,81 D1, 5,88 D2 and 1,78 D6 -1 wounds, resulting in on average 23,02 wounds (14,14 if you hide from/kill the Helverins).
Turn some of those into Damage 0, add some re-rolls (and better yet, hide from the Helverins) and Magnus should have no problems surving.
Thank you I really appreciate the breakdown on his survival, I will try those things next time. But it’s really hard to pull those off turn one when I don’t have cabal points because I’m going second.
Also helverins are base damage 3 and he had them at damage 4 with a strat. It was pretty painful. And due to Magnus wing tips I can’t hide him behind any terrain successfully
Drdotts wrote: Thank you I really appreciate the breakdown on his survival, I will try those things next time. But it’s really hard to pull those off turn one when I don’t have cabal points because I’m going second.
Also helverins are base damage 3 and he had them at damage 4 with a strat. It was pretty painful. And due to Magnus wing tips I can’t hide him behind any terrain successfully
Yeah not going first hurts since you can't do any rituals.
Magnus can still get his Impossible Form of however, (for that crucial -1 damage taken, hence why Helverins become D2), since that activates at the start of the battle round.
Helverins can only become Damage 4 from Squire's Duty if the Knight-army is Honoured, which they are extremely unlikely to be the first turn(s) of the game.
Not being able to hide Magnus ... yeah, not much you can do there I suppose.
You *should* still play with terrain high (and wide) enough to hide him from Helverins. Remember that terrain rules are still a bit abstract and block all LoS if it's a certain height, and Helverins (and Magnus) aren't Towering.
My Magnus rarely takes damage on the first turn, and even into T2 I am still hiding him.
Terrain is definitely a big factor in how games pan out. If you're using the player-placed terrain minigame before deployment, try to minimize lanes of fire so that no one downtown can take a potshot at your Termies or Magnus. Stay outside ruins until you have the shot you want to take.
My Magnus might not connect with anything until T3 sometimes, he just hangs back and buffs the Termies and provides a serious deterrent.
This might seem like a waste of points but it's better that he does heavy lifting later in the game than get one good shooting phase and then die in return.
Btw " Turn a third failed save into Damage 0 with Destined by Fate + Echoes of the Warp + Lord of Forbidden Lore"
This doesn't work for magnus. Enchantment can't be given to magnus and free stratagem applies only to enchantment owner.
Ahh you're right.
Can still be used to give him an additional (potentially) third re-roll on a failed save though, so I guess 2 attacks turned to D0 and 3 re-rolls it is:
Destined by Fate on Magnus.
Destined by Fate + Echoes of the Warp on Magnus.
Weaver of Fates on Magnus / on a TS psyker within 18" of Magnus.
Command Reroll on Magnus.
Weaver of Fates + Lord of Forbidden Lore on a TS psyker within 18" of Magnus.
so, second game with tsons this edition, vs guard, at 1k agian.
my force was a slight tweak to my last list (which is in this thread, a while back)
Ahriman on disk (warlord)
Exalted sorcerer (scrolls)
shaman (vortex)
10 bolter rubrics with soulreaper (exalted attached)
5 bolter rubrics with soulreaper
5 flamer rubics with soulreaper (ahriman attached)
10 tzaangor
5 scarabs with soulreaper and hellfire missiles
3 enlightened with bows (shaman attached)
my opponent ran:
Lord Solar
command squad
commissar
20 infantry (attached command squad and lord solar)
20 infantry (attached commisar)
10 krieg
leman russ with punisher Gatling cannon
leman russ vanquisher.
vindicaire assassin.
board had a large city wall section down the middle that split the midboard into left and right sides, but otherwise mostly just low cover.
i won the roll off for starting, raced the enlightened up to a firing position where they almost killed the command squad captain on turn one, plus the shamans mutating orb with BLAST had fun with a 26 man unit. the big bolter unit and the flamers moved up one flank, and did a number on the commissars squad, while the tzanngor moved up the other flank, and the small bolters sat on the home objective. his turn one, he managed with great expenditure to kill the enlightened (but NOT the shamen) and a few tzaangor, but genneraly bounced.
My turn two, i used twist of fate on his vanquisher, and in combination with lethal hits on the big bolter squad, and all three characters throwing their spells at it, was able to delete that tank and reduce the commisars squad to just the commissar. the tzanngor charged the krieg but failed to kill them all. hes turn two, he brought the commisars squad back on via strategem, this time on the tzanngor flank to push towards my home objective, succeeded in killing the shaman, and failed to kill the tzanngor in melee.
my third turn, i was able to bring my big bolter block into LOS of his home objective (being held by the remains of the lord solar's squad), and remove everyone but the lord solar himself, pushing him off that objective at the start of his turn (the lord solar being too far to away to score). my termies came out of deep strike, twist of fate'd the other russ, and managed a 10" charge to get into melee, where they mauled but did not kill it. his turn 3, he brought back the lord solars former squad to threaten the left side point (and lost half the squad to flamer overwatch). he also killed the small bolter squad on my home objective. the termies were able to kill the Russ in his fight phase as well
turn 4 saw the lord solar die to massed bolters, and the leman russ to kopesh slashes. in his turn 4, he got a squad on my back objective, and he shot the flamer rubircs down (and wounded ahriman), then he managed to kill the tzanngor (finallly!), and managed to claim the point they were contesting with the ever-regenerating Krieg squad.
my turn 5, ahriman died to overwatch trying to position himself to attack my home objective, and i killed the Vindicare which had managed to only kill the shamen all game. we called it their his turn 5 scoring woudl leave him trailing 20 to my 25, so he conceded.
overall, happy with how the game went. the attrition units lasted much longer than expected, the big bolter squad never even lost a man thanks to the 4++, but did a lot of hard work. the termies basically held one flank for half a game, and twist of fate combined with strat-enabled leathal hits really hit his tanks hard. the guards ability to regenerate their chaff was annoying, but i was able to keep them mostly pruned while still dealing with his tanks, plus the 2CP strat ate up almost all his CP. this was my first time running the enlightened, and i'm happy enough with their performance for a 45 point unit. They were only one dice roll away form killing the platoon commander on turn one, so it could easily have happened, especially if d run a 6 man squad.
Wow we got SMASHED! Not as bad as Eldar, but pretty close. Basically everything went up. I mean Magnus, Mutilith, Ahriman, yea I can see, but Rubrics up 10 points for 5? That seems like it is a bit much. I guess we will see
This list eschews the typical Terminator death block for a Rubric block that, while it doesn't have quite as much firepower or durability, is literally half the points. Stick an Infernal Master with Crystal to lead these guys, and they can deploy waaay back to gain some safety and then teleport forward T1 to get the drop on a scary target. If you have the armor turned off your target, then maybe select Lethal Hits for this round, otherwise stay in DevWounds as usual. Since we can't double-dip into the ignore damage strat anymore, maybe we spend those sorcery points on the reroll everything strat instead so that both Magnus and this unit get it! Stand next to Magnus, buff the bolters, and you're getting 20 shots hitting on 2s (from Magnus), Sustained 1 (from Master), Lethal (from Army). That's roughly 22 hits (get three 1s and convert two of them with the reroll and also get three 6s), +1 to wound means we're wounding T6-9 on 4s and T10+ on 5s. Add in the Master's 2d6 S7 shots, for another roughly 5 and I'd say that's a solid 18 wounds into a tough target from this unit. If you did the average (5) from Doombolt at the start, then you've done 23 wounds on a Knight. If you're below average, finish it with the Terminator Sorcerer, Magnus, or the Mutalith, maybe.
Still Termies
Spoiler:
Magnus – 440 Ahriman – 130 Sorcerer in Termie Armour (Enhance: UC) – 135 Infernal Master (Enhance: LoFL) – 115 10 Rubrics with flamers – 210 5 Rubrics with flamers – 105 5 Rubrics with flamers – 105 10 Termies with cannons and missiles – 430 Mutalith – 165 Rhino – 75 Changeling – 90 = 2000 15 sorcery points
This one has fewer units, but still counts on the Occult Block to smash face. It's very similar to the list I had been running, so I want to try out the first one and see if Rubrics are decent performers. The combi-bolters as opposed to inferno bolters are just so much better, with over twice as many shots (but for twice the points). 10 Terminators with cannons/missiles and a leader, in RF range, will get 36 bolter shots, 12 cannon shots, and 4 missile shots. Next to Magnus, buffed, that's a lot of hits on 2s and wounds on 5s, as well as lethal and sustained and even some damage 3. If we do the same setup as the above Rubrics... 35 bolter hits, 27 wounds. Then 8 hits and 1-2 DWs from the cannons, then 3 hits and 1-2 wounds from the missiles, THEN 3 hits and 6 MWs from the Termie Sorcerer's smite. YIKES!
Any suggestions on how to effectively use a DP (without wings)? So far, because a DP can't lead a unit, I'm finding it gets blown off the board before it can ever get into melee or anywhere useful.
dreadblade wrote: Any suggestions on how to effectively use a DP (without wings)? So far, because a DP can't lead a unit, I'm finding it gets blown off the board before it can ever get into melee or anywhere useful.
I got a tournament (1500P) coming up and i'am bringing the following:
Magnus
Daemon Prince (Um. crystal)
Daemon prince with wings (lore)
Daemon prince with wings
Daemon prince with wings
Changeling
3 horrors
3 horrors
I teleport the walking daemon prince mid field and move magnus 28 inch (temporal surge) within 6 inch so that he got stealth. Winged daemon prince all go up in the air after the oppponent's turn and also drop within 6 inch or go for the objectives. The winged daemon prince with lore could fly forward and make sure it's within 18 inch from magnus so that magnus could do another weaver of fate reroll.
This is not a tournament winning list but it looks like fun. At 1500 points I hope that magnus is to much to handle with stealth, ignore damage stratagem and twist of fate. Or magnus got shot down first turn and I can pack it in.
In this setup, stealth is really nice. against Eldar shooting it can really make a difference. But in any other list I don't really see a use for the walking daemon prince.
Taking the crystal on the DP would be cool, except that I already use it on an Infernal Master who leads my flamer Rubric brick. I think that's a lot more useful to teleport into the objectives on turn 1 than the DP.
dreadblade wrote: Any suggestions on how to effectively use a DP (without wings)? So far, because a DP can't lead a unit, I'm finding it gets blown off the board before it can ever get into melee or anywhere useful.
I got a tournament (1500P) coming up and i'am bringing the following:
Magnus
Daemon Prince (Um. crystal)
Daemon prince with wings (lore)
Daemon prince with wings
Daemon prince with wings
Changeling
3 horrors
3 horrors
I teleport the walking daemon prince mid field and move magnus 28 inch (temporal surge) within 6 inch so that he got stealth. Winged daemon prince all go up in the air after the oppponent's turn and also drop within 6 inch or go for the objectives. The winged daemon prince with lore could fly forward and make sure it's within 18 inch from magnus so that magnus could do another weaver of fate reroll.
This is not a tournament winning list but it looks like fun. At 1500 points I hope that magnus is to much to handle with stealth, ignore damage stratagem and twist of fate. Or magnus got shot down first turn and I can pack it in.
In this setup, stealth is really nice. against Eldar shooting it can really make a difference. But in any other list I don't really see a use for the walking daemon prince.
I like that list just for the sheer zaniness of it. Kind of like Thousand Sons Knights with the DPs as wardogs and Magunus as your big one. LOL
As to the original question, the best way to use a daemon prince with wings I have found is to definitely hide turn 1. Then use the teleport to put him on a flank, hopefully behind some LOS blocking terrain, and then bully the flank and back field units on objectives. He is not a main line damage dealer and should not engage anything that can fight back in CC well. Also the teleport really lets you get a good base to use doombolt if you opponent doesn't screen well, really good for putting down those annonying lone opps (doombolt is not a shooting attack so can target at 18"). Hopefully you will find this useful.
This list eschews the typical Terminator death block for a Rubric block that, while it doesn't have quite as much firepower or durability, is literally half the points. Stick an Infernal Master with Crystal to lead these guys, and they can deploy waaay back to gain some safety and then teleport forward T1 to get the drop on a scary target. If you have the armor turned off your target, then maybe select Lethal Hits for this round, otherwise stay in DevWounds as usual.
Since we can't double-dip into the ignore damage strat anymore, maybe we spend those sorcery points on the reroll everything strat instead so that both Magnus and this unit get it!
Stand next to Magnus, buff the bolters, and you're getting 20 shots hitting on 2s (from Magnus), Sustained 1 (from Master), Lethal (from Army). That's roughly 22 hits (get three 1s and convert two of them with the reroll and also get three 6s), +1 to wound means we're wounding T6-9 on 4s and T10+ on 5s. Add in the Master's 2d6 S7 shots, for another roughly 5 and I'd say that's a solid 18 wounds into a tough target from this unit. If you did the average (5) from Doombolt at the start, then you've done 23 wounds on a Knight. If you're below average, finish it with the Terminator Sorcerer, Magnus, or the Mutalith, maybe.
Still Termies
Spoiler:
Magnus – 440
Ahriman – 130
Sorcerer in Termie Armour (Enhance: UC) – 135
Infernal Master (Enhance: LoFL) – 115
10 Rubrics with flamers – 210
5 Rubrics with flamers – 105
5 Rubrics with flamers – 105
10 Termies with cannons and missiles – 430
Mutalith – 165
Rhino – 75
Changeling – 90
= 2000
15 sorcery points
This one has fewer units, but still counts on the Occult Block to smash face. It's very similar to the list I had been running, so I want to try out the first one and see if Rubrics are decent performers. The combi-bolters as opposed to inferno bolters are just so much better, with over twice as many shots (but for twice the points). 10 Terminators with cannons/missiles and a leader, in RF range, will get 36 bolter shots, 12 cannon shots, and 4 missile shots. Next to Magnus, buffed, that's a lot of hits on 2s and wounds on 5s, as well as lethal and sustained and even some damage 3.
If we do the same setup as the above Rubrics... 35 bolter hits, 27 wounds. Then 8 hits and 1-2 DWs from the cannons, then 3 hits and 1-2 wounds from the missiles, THEN 3 hits and 6 MWs from the Termie Sorcerer's smite. YIKES!
Hi Elric, i am starting TS and really appreciate your posts. Any new feedback about the terminator list ? and the full Rubric one ?
The Rubrics are a lot harder to maneuver over the course of a whole game, bc once they drop in, even if they kill their target, they have very few shots at anything outside their 17" range (move+rapid fire). I just like the Terminators.
I've adapted again and I'm currently using Ahriman with 10x Flamer Rubrics in Rhino, Master with Crystal and 5x Flamer Rubrics, Sorcerer with Scrolls and 5x bolter Rubrics, Termie Sorcerer with Vortex and 10x Termies, Magnus, and 3x Enlightened.
So I am back to using TS, and I had a game against CSM yesterday. My list was as follows:
Ahriman
10x Flamer Rubrics with Soul reaper
Rhino
Exalted Sor
10 x Rubrics with Soul reaper
Daemon Prince
Termie Sor with crystal
3 5 x SoT units with Soul reaper and missile
Forgefiend
3 x Tgor bow guys
Predator Annihilate
We played on this table that was preset and filled with ruins so he had the advantage as his army was more melee focused. He got some long charges off turn two and put down some of my vehicles, but I ended up weathering the hit and then began to hit him back with with my physic close combat and just wore him down to end up winning by 2 points. Thoughts on Units:
Ahriman w/10x Flamer Rubrics with Soul reaper in Rhino- So yea they toasted some CSM. However I did not use the remove armor cabal, and with only an ap -1 they did less damage then I was expected to CSM legionaries. I think you really need to plan to use the remove armor cabal each time the shoot to maximize their efficiency. They also did some overwatch damage, but then got promptly killed when attacked by a bunch of units as it always the case. I am not sold on the rhino. If there was indirect maybe could be good, but with the move again cabal the unit can move basically as far anyway, and as infantry can move though ruins. Also if they start in the Rhino, you don't generate the 4 cabal points they are worth.
Exalted Sor w.10 x Rubrics with Soul reaper- yea I know another squad of flamers would probably be better, but I don't own more than 9. They actually did pretty good, and since I don't have a 10 block of termies, I used the re-roll physic attacks/physic bolters on them and they did some ok damage. I also resurrected 4 rubrics which is really helpful. I think I like the Exalted better with a 10 man, and the normal Sor better with a 5 man.
Daemon Prince- my first time taking the walking one and he did pretty well. I actually forgot the -1 hit aura two turns, so did not get that much of a feeling for him, and never got the use the precision thing. (I am going to put a dice with -1 near him so I remember next time). Also our daemon princes are better than the CSM ones in combat because of the [Devastating Wounds]. He did a lot of damage that with that killing a maulerfiend, and oblits (both wounded prior). He also tanked a bit of fire with the 4++ and the ability to re-roll from cabal, and the 0 damage strat. I do like him if you are not bring Magnus (which if you are going to a competitive event, you most certianly are)
Termie Sor with crystal w/ 5 x SoT units with Soul reaper and missile- turn one teleport to put pressure on a mid-field objective as usual. Our terminators are really tough (actually terminators in general finally feel right), but their damage out put is not the best in my opinion without the strat/cabal use. I know 10 with the strat/cabal is the hotness, but I just don't want to use that in a friendly game. Also these guys did not need a points increase. They were fine where they were, as where the Rubrics which now feel overpriced, what needed to be changed is really the strat/cabal (although losing that would really hurt) and increasing the points for the characters was really what was needed. I felt as if I had one too few units in this game against the CSM.
5 x SoT units with Soul reaper and missile- see above.
3 x Tgor bow guys- They were really helpful for quick secondary support. They are really fast and with the small unit and other issues, my opponent basically ignored them. A more shooting focused army might find the extra shots to put into them, so they may not be best in every situation. But helpful and basically won me the game by doing a Investigate Signals secondary. I think people are using the lone operative blue scribes for this, which is probably better, but these guys work too. I would use them again.
Forgefiend- So, no where near as good as the CSM one, but that is because [Devastating Wounds] is still so bonkers broken. However, he is still pretty good, 3d3 blast S10 ap -3 3D is a pretty good profile. I only got to shoot him once (he killed the unit he shot) so did not get to use the -1 to the opponent thing. He got hit turn two with a long bomb charge from advancing and charging possessed so that was that (again [Devastating Wounds] is still too good).
Predator Annihilate- Finally this tank, which will include my rant on Chaos vehicles in general. He did ok, this was not a good battlefield for him due to the heavy ruins preventing any real long ranged shooting (it was basically a city fight). However in typical fashion he wiffed with his laser cannons on turn 3, and was bogged down by warptalons who made a deep strike charge on him (those things are really good now by the way). I am going to trade him out next game for something else, but GW really needs to look at the points for all the chaos vehicles in our army other than the forgefiend who feels right (and is like 45 points cheaper than the CSM ones). None of the vehicles benefit from our detachment abilities, don't generate cabal, can't cast cabal, and only really benefit from the remove armor, move again (probably being used on infantry) and re-roll save (if in range of a Sor and not being used on something more important). Also we don't have a single character, enhancement, or stratagem that helps our vehicles in any way. The point is due to this they are all really overcosted in our army by like 15 or 20 points (maybe not Rhino as that is just a transport). The CSM ones get so much more with the dark pacts. The most egregious one is the hellbrute. The CSM one is awesome with its ability. The WE and DG ones also have much better abilities then ours, and I think the -1 cabal in 6 inches is super niche and rarely matters (how many times do you end up having one or two cabal dice remaining anyway.) And ours is 5 points more than the other ones! They could make it 100 points and I don't think I would field it. Sorry rant over.
Just a note on [Devastating Wounds] with the physic attacks. I know a lot of people like the [Sustained Hits] but I think the [Devastating Wounds] is better unless you bring Magus who wants more attacks. I know the unit Sor already have [Devastating Wounds], but really how much value are you getting out of [Sustained Hits] anyway with a 1d attack with only 2 or 3 shots. I think it is better to have [Devastating Wounds] active for getting though enemy army, which really makes our physic attacks punch up, especially in close combat. Maybe if you are playing Orks, or GSC that don't really have good armor, [Sustained Hits] might be better, but I think against any vehicle heavy or SM equivalent armies, the [Devastating Wounds] is better. Also I would never take [Lethal Hits] as I think the auto wound is only good if you already have good ap, but low to middle strength which most of the physic attacks are only -1 or -2. Many times you can get [Lethal Hits] with a Sor leading a unit anyway.
Got a question regarding temporal surge: anything preventing a double temporal surge on Magnus with the lord of the lore enhancement? I got a game coming up against genestealer cult and I need alle the mobility that I can get..
shogun wrote: Got a question regarding temporal surge: anything preventing a double temporal surge on Magnus with the lord of the lore enhancement? I got a game coming up against genestealer cult and I need alle the mobility that I can get..
I don't see anything that would prevent that as the only limitation is you can only use the cabal power 1 time, but the enhancement breaks that. Although I don't know why you would want to double on Magnus as with his move I believe only using it once lets him go 32" so pretty much anywhere on the board already
shogun wrote: Got a question regarding temporal surge: anything preventing a double temporal surge on Magnus with the lord of the lore enhancement? I got a game coming up against genestealer cult and I need alle the mobility that I can get..
I don't see anything that would prevent that as the only limitation is you can only use the cabal power 1 time, but the enhancement breaks that. Although I don't know why you would want to double on Magnus as with his move I believe only using it once lets him go 32" so pretty much anywhere on the board already
Thanks. I did a small 3-round tournament with my list:
Spoiler:
Magnus
Daemon Prince (Um. crystal)
Daemon prince with wings (lore)
Daemon prince with wings
Daemon prince with wings
Changeling
3 flamers of tzeentch
3 3 flamers of tzeentch
Game 1: I lost to a mean Genestealer cult army. Actually moved Magnus twice to get behind enemy cover and blast away a ridgerunner and get 'behind enemy lines' mission objective. Enemy put everything in reserves and when the dropped down the actually killed 3 flying daemon princes in one go. After that I killed a lot of enemy units but the GSC kept scoring to many mission points.
Game 2: played against my buddies Aeldari-army. I really feared this army because it got 8 bright lances (2 warwalkers and two wraithlords) and 3 fire prims. I need to get first turn to get my defences up and take out a few enemy shots. I actually got first turn and teleported the walking daemon prince mid field and moved magnus twice to get within 6 inch (stealth) took out a warwalker and damaged another one. Only problem is that my buddy actually took down 6 wounds on the walking daemon prince with overwatch + 6 to hit fate dice. But next turn my buddy didn't roll so well and I actually managed to save all the shots. I needed 'weaver of fate' twice and the ignore damage stratagem but I survived. End of his turn I put 3 flying daemon princes in reserves. After that i dropped in and kept him in the ropes. Lot of stuffed died on both sides bot I controled the mid field and primary objectives. I won. If my opponent got first turn It would probably be over in 20 minutes.
Game 3: Against chaos knights. One big one with laser destructor. I got first turn again and dropped the big knight with psychic shooting from magnus and the shots from the daemon princes. From that point on it was a garanteed win. I did underestimate the close combat attacks from the small knights (stalkers?) and the actually killed magnus. I still claimed the mid field and won on points. Normally the daemon princes can do a decent amount of wounds in close combat but S8 against knights really sucks.
In the end I got 5th place (26 players). The winner got a perfect score with aeldari (10 wraithguard and Yncarne)
I really like this list. It's fun. Daemon prince with stealth really helps against shooting and when I got my defence up it can be difficult to deal with this armylist. A lot of armylist got a decent amount of D3 weapons to take out terminators and stuff, but with -1 damage on magnus It is not that efficient.
I would really want to play this in a 2000p setup but i know this would not work. At 1500 points the enemy player can have difficulty taking down magnus but at 2000 points the amount of shooting or objective grabbing tips the balance to much.
shogun wrote: Got a question regarding temporal surge: anything preventing a double temporal surge on Magnus with the lord of the lore enhancement? I got a game coming up against genestealer cult and I need alle the mobility that I can get..
I don't see anything that would prevent that as the only limitation is you can only use the cabal power 1 time, but the enhancement breaks that. Although I don't know why you would want to double on Magnus as with his move I believe only using it once lets him go 32" so pretty much anywhere on the board already
Thanks. I did a small 3-round tournament with my list:
Spoiler:
Magnus
Daemon Prince (Um. crystal)
Daemon prince with wings (lore)
Daemon prince with wings
Daemon prince with wings
Changeling
3 flamers of tzeentch
3 3 flamers of tzeentch
Game 1: I lost to a mean Genestealer cult army. Actually moved Magnus twice to get behind enemy cover and blast away a ridgerunner and get 'behind enemy lines' mission objective. Enemy put everything in reserves and when the dropped down the actually killed 3 flying daemon princes in one go. After that I killed a lot of enemy units but the GSC kept scoring to many mission points.
Game 2: played against my buddies Aeldari-army. I really feared this army because it got 8 bright lances (2 warwalkers and two wraithlords) and 3 fire prims. I need to get first turn to get my defences up and take out a few enemy shots. I actually got first turn and teleported the walking daemon prince mid field and moved magnus twice to get within 6 inch (stealth) took out a warwalker and damaged another one. Only problem is that my buddy actually took down 6 wounds on the walking daemon prince with overwatch + 6 to hit fate dice. But next turn my buddy didn't roll so well and I actually managed to save all the shots. I needed 'weaver of fate' twice and the ignore damage stratagem but I survived. End of his turn I put 3 flying daemon princes in reserves. After that i dropped in and kept him in the ropes. Lot of stuffed died on both sides bot I controled the mid field and primary objectives. I won. If my opponent got first turn It would probably be over in 20 minutes.
Game 3: Against chaos knights. One big one with laser destructor. I got first turn again and dropped the big knight with psychic shooting from magnus and the shots from the daemon princes. From that point on it was a garanteed win. I did underestimate the close combat attacks from the small knights (stalkers?) and the actually killed magnus. I still claimed the mid field and won on points. Normally the daemon princes can do a decent amount of wounds in close combat but S8 against knights really sucks.
In the end I got 5th place (26 players). The winner got a perfect score with aeldari (10 wraithguard and Yncarne)
I really like this list. It's fun. Daemon prince with stealth really helps against shooting and when I got my defence up it can be difficult to deal with this armylist. A lot of armylist got a decent amount of D3 weapons to take out terminators and stuff, but with -1 damage on magnus It is not that efficient.
I would really want to play this in a 2000p setup but i know this would not work. At 1500 points the enemy player can have difficulty taking down magnus but at 2000 points the amount of shooting or objective grabbing tips the balance to much.
Cool write up, 5th place is not to bad. I like that list, I don't think it is meta breaking, but sure looks fun. Yea the DPs lower strength really does hurt.
I also play Chaos Knights, so could bring along a Despoiler, Descecrator or even 3 Brigands. Without their enhancements or stratagems though, are they effectively overcosted in a TSons army?
I also play Chaos Knights, so could bring along a Despoiler, Descecrator or even 3 Brigands. Without their enhancements or stratagems though, are they effectively overcosted in a TSons army?
The problem is that chaos knights don't really add much to a thousand sons army. Thousand sons struggle a bit after the point raise and losing more points to other stuff puts pressure on the thousand sons synergy. Also losing knight stratagems hurts a lot.
I tried putting my Scarabs in the Land Raider yesterday to take advantage of the Assault Ramp. Unfortunately I went first, so never got the chance to use it (they disembarked on a midfield objective turn 1). Then the Land Raider was out of position with them when it would have been better holding the deployment zone objective and providing covering fire. Oh well, it was worth a try, but I don't think I'll bother again.
dreadblade wrote: I tried putting my Scarabs in the Land Raider yesterday to take advantage of the Assault Ramp. Unfortunately I went first, so never got the chance to use it (they disembarked on a midfield objective turn 1). Then the Land Raider was out of position with them when it would have been better holding the deployment zone objective and providing covering fire. Oh well, it was worth a try, but I don't think I'll bother again.
yeah, the trouble with land raiders is they are both armed like MBT while ALSO being a high capacity transport, and have points to match those two roles, but its very difficult to to actually use it as both, so your always paying for capability your not using properly.
a Thousand Sons lascannon-armed predator costs 130pts, and a rhino costs 75*. Together, they are STILL cheaper than a Land Raider (205 pts vs 240 for a LR). The only advantage of the LR is the assault ramp trick, but Tsons dont really have a suitable payload for that anyway. Dont get me wrong scarabs aren't bad at melee, but their not the sort of melee blender we'd need to make that tactic viable, especially at a buy-in price of 419 or even 634 points (for 5 and 10 scarabs).
*yes, i know you can't put termies in a rhino, but you get the point.
dreadblade wrote: I tried putting my Scarabs in the Land Raider yesterday to take advantage of the Assault Ramp. Unfortunately I went first, so never got the chance to use it (they disembarked on a midfield objective turn 1). Then the Land Raider was out of position with them when it would have been better holding the deployment zone objective and providing covering fire. Oh well, it was worth a try, but I don't think I'll bother again.
yeah, the trouble with land raiders is they are both armed like MBT while ALSO being a high capacity transport, and have points to match those two roles, but its very difficult to to actually use it as both, so your always paying for capability your not using properly.
a Thousand Sons lascannon-armed predator costs 130pts, and a rhino costs 75*. Together, they are STILL cheaper than a Land Raider (205 pts vs 240 for a LR). The only advantage of the LR is the assault ramp trick, but Tsons dont really have a suitable payload for that anyway. Dont get me wrong scarabs aren't bad at melee, but their not the sort of melee blender we'd need to make that tactic viable, especially at a buy-in price of 419 or even 634 points (for 5 and 10 scarabs).
*yes, i know you can't put termies in a rhino, but you get the point.
Yea also the Land Raider for TS doesn't benefit from (maybe the remove armor but that is it) or contribute to the cabal, and doesn't benefit from the detachment rule which is two strikes. The CSM one can actually be pretty good as they have good units to deliver (aka chosen) and the nurgle sustained hits on the LCs can really add some serious damage. And I believe the TS one is the same price. Without a hefty price reduction to recognize that our army rule and detachment rule does not help it, there really is no point. That is true of basically all of our vehicles. Our lists are really pigeon holed right now due to the lack of diversity in the detachment which combined with the army rule (which i do love btw, not saying they should change it) we are really encouraged to play massive amounts of characters. Most of which need to be leading something, which really doesn't leave much points for vehicles. Since we know our book is fall at best, hopefully GW will give some points cuts to make things interesting.
So the balance pass is out and for the Thousand Sons it might as well be September of 2023. No changes in any way what so ever. So disappointing, it definitely feels like no one on the GW staff gives even half a sh*t about the TS. I mean the CSM vehicles are grossly overcosted, the points nerfs to scarbs and rubrics in the last pass seemed unnecessary then, but really so now, and while the Dark Eldar really needed help, I am super jelly that they got a new detachment, when ours is starting to feel so same same every time I play. So much for trying to fix "internal balance" as our lists are basically going to be exactly the same every game with very minor differences for at least the next 6 months.
So no one has talked about Thousand Sons in a while, (really nothing to talk about) but I found this on Blood of Kittens. A list that won a tournament that was not the standard Magnus, Ahriman, sorcerers, with all flame rubrics and some AT or action money support. This list does still have Magnus however (he is the best individual model in the game).
Also since I am bored at work and don't feel like doing anything right now, and there is absolutely no real discussion to be had on Thousand Son's tactics (other than the list posted basically all competitive lists are 90% the same) I figured maybe it would be fun to discuss what I hope will come in the codex which is not going to be until at least late spring of next year.
First I think there is no way that there will be more than 4 or 5 detachments in the book. 4 seems to be the minimum for codexes (3 for supplements) and I don't think Thousand Sons will have all that many. There will be the index one probably a bit reworked, I bet we get a hypercrypt style one, probably one focusing on Tgors and mutaliths, and one more which I don't have a guess.
For new units (if we in fact get any) I think we will get some kind of automaton type units as this has be hinted at in the lore, and the 30k TS use them as well.
I hope we can get a psychic dread, that would be awesome, but since the blood angels just lost theirs hopes are not high.
Maybe a unit of rubrics on discs would be cool, armed with flamers or soulreapers or something.
I hope we get something that is not just another character, as our armies are already character heavy as is, and I don't see what character we could even need.
For units there is one major thing I really want to see. Rubrics broken into two different data sheets, one for the bolters (with like 1 in 5 flamer) and one for the all flamer load out. The flamers are just flatly superior to the bolters, and are probably getting another price increase with the data slate coming out seeing how they are in basically EVERY list. Which sucks for the bolters which are already way over priced at the current points. Since GW is not going back to equipment costs until at least 11th, if even then, splitting this weapon load to a different data sheet is the best option. Also, you could make the flamer one different with out battleline and a lower OC, which would give them a different role than the bolter ones.
The rest of the book will probably just be more of the same, but I hope they make it so other choices are at least somewhat interesting compared to Magnus who I think is going to get a huge nerf when the book comes out.
I would also love if each detachment only had 5 strategems, but each one had its own unique Cabal Spell, which would really make each detachment feel different. On that note I also hope they don't change the army rule away from the Cabals as that rules really makes the thousand sons feel like a psychic army.
Anyway anyone else have an opinion of what they would like to see for Thousand Sons?
These are all just spit balling ideas, and some may not be particularly balanced, but they would add some much needed variety to the list.
Cultists and Spawn can ride in Rhinos. Spawn take up three slots each (so, six slots for a unit of two). This allows for scouting transports, mixed Rubric/Spawn assault waves, or even just a Rhino full of gribbly melee tanks.
Thousand Sons only have to take a battle line Daemon unit if they're taking an Epic Hero (each one). So if you want a unit or two of Flamers or Screamers, or even Exalted Flamers or a Greater Daemon, you can. But stuff like the Changeling still comes with a tax.
We should have a Devastators unit, even if it's a direct copy/paste from SM. They can ride in Rhinos, and can be led by whatever sorcerer. Just to add a bit of variety to weapon types, and it not be quite so all-or-nothing on cabal points.
Rubric Bolters could be Psychic by default. They're not cheap units anyway, but they'd be pretty scary with Dev Wounds or Sustained or Lethal Hits. Might be a touch too good, but it'd certainly be a choice between them and Flamers.
Daemon Princes (and winged ones) should have deepstrike. It's not really going to change how fast we move, but it does make them a more viable option. They rarely get taken right now. Guns could use Psychic as well as their melee attacks.
I'd probably give Dreadnoughts Psychic weapons as well, or at least a once-a-battle turn of it. Makes them a lot more versatile in target types and usage.
((Ps, I like that list posted above. It's kind of like a Knights list, with Magnus being a big knight, and the mutas, forgefieds and karnivore subbing in for wardogs. But you've also got some infantry and objective control. Looks pretty fun to play.))
"Thousand Sons only have to take a battle line Daemon unit if they're taking an Epic Hero (each one). So if you want a unit or two of Flamers or Screamers, or even Exalted Flamers or a Greater Daemon, you can. But stuff like the Changeling still comes with a tax".
This should actually be the rule for all chaos armies, as taking a unit of flamers or bloodcrushers was not breaking the meta, it was the nuglings and lone op crap that was.
I like the suggestions so far. A psyker cultist leader would be cool and make them more distinct from CSM cultists. We definitely need some more AT power as well, so devastator style squad would be good.
There are some rumors floating around about daemons being folded into a book with the distinct god legions. I am not sure how I feel about that. On the one hand, every major engagement I have read concerning Thousand Sons post-heresy they always use daemons in droves to supplement their rather small force of rubrics. But then I don't want to book to devolve into magnus plus daemons and lose the thousand sons feel of it. Also that would suck for anyone who wants to run mixed daemons.
xeen wrote: "Thousand Sons only have to take a battle line Daemon unit if they're taking an Epic Hero (each one). So if you want a unit or two of Flamers or Screamers, or even Exalted Flamers or a Greater Daemon, you can. But stuff like the Changeling still comes with a tax".
This should actually be the rule for all chaos armies, as taking a unit of flamers or bloodcrushers was not breaking the meta, it was the nuglings and lone op crap that was.
I like the suggestions so far. A psyker cultist leader would be cool and make them more distinct from CSM cultists. We definitely need some more AT power as well, so devastator style squad would be good.
There are some rumors floating around about daemons being folded into a book with the distinct god legions. I am not sure how I feel about that. On the one hand, every major engagement I have read concerning Thousand Sons post-heresy they always use daemons in droves to supplement their rather small force of rubrics. But then I don't want to book to devolve into magnus plus daemons and lose the thousand sons feel of it. Also that would suck for anyone who wants to run mixed daemons.
thoughts?
AoS does a Tzeentch book and its the most tzeentchian fun i've ever had, you can still opt to focus on mortals, on demons or go for a mixed force. I eagerly await the possibilty of my demons and thousand sons having some synergy
xeen wrote: "Thousand Sons only have to take a battle line Daemon unit if they're taking an Epic Hero (each one). So if you want a unit or two of Flamers or Screamers, or even Exalted Flamers or a Greater Daemon, you can. But stuff like the Changeling still comes with a tax".
This should actually be the rule for all chaos armies, as taking a unit of flamers or bloodcrushers was not breaking the meta, it was the nuglings and lone op crap that was.
I like the suggestions so far. A psyker cultist leader would be cool and make them more distinct from CSM cultists. We definitely need some more AT power as well, so devastator style squad would be good.
There are some rumors floating around about daemons being folded into a book with the distinct god legions. I am not sure how I feel about that. On the one hand, every major engagement I have read concerning Thousand Sons post-heresy they always use daemons in droves to supplement their rather small force of rubrics. But then I don't want to book to devolve into magnus plus daemons and lose the thousand sons feel of it. Also that would suck for anyone who wants to run mixed daemons.
thoughts?
AoS does a Tzeentch book and its the most tzeentchian fun i've ever had, you can still opt to focus on mortals, on demons or go for a mixed force. I eagerly await the possibilty of my demons and thousand sons having some synergy
Be careful what you wish for, especially where Tzeentch is concerned. I could be wrong, but I don't see a lot of synergy between Arcanites and Daemons in Age of Sigmar right now.
Be careful what you wish for, especially where Tzeentch is concerned. I could be wrong, but I don't see a lot of synergy between Arcanites and Daemons in Age of Sigmar right now.
The main "synergy" is that you can bring them together with no downside really.
-They both benefit from the same army rule, unlike 40k.
-There is no pts limit for either half, unlike 40k -The army as a whole feels tzeentchian in the way it plays, unlike 40k
It's more of a list composition boon, where lesser demons are your "shitters" that can screen/grab objectives or spread wyrdflame, and mortals are the more punchy half the faction. So bringing horrors, backed up by strong casters and punchy units is really nice.
It would be interesting if they made Rubrics much more elite, instead of Legionaries with a better bolter and 5++. Make them really tough but more expensive, then have the army rely on daemons and mortals for the numbers aspect, which would really feel like the Thousand Sons in the lore.
xeen wrote: It would be interesting if they made Rubrics much more elite, instead of Legionaries with a better bolter and 5++. Make them really tough but more expensive, then have the army rely on daemons and mortals for the numbers aspect, which would really feel like the Thousand Sons in the lore.
Rubrics are already muuuuch more elite feeling than Legionnaires tbh.
xeen wrote: It would be interesting if they made Rubrics much more elite, instead of Legionaries with a better bolter and 5++. Make them really tough but more expensive, then have the army rely on daemons and mortals for the numbers aspect, which would really feel like the Thousand Sons in the lore.
Rubrics are already muuuuch more elite feeling than Legionnaires tbh.
I wouldn't say no to all is dust being back tho
Yea that would make them really outstanding and justify not using them as your mainstay, but as a elite to the daemon mortal forces, if they add those forces to the book
So we got our grotmas detachment and WOW is it disappointing. Not because the detachment is sub-par, which it is, but this detachment encourages the same builds you would use in the other detachment, with focus on lots of magical shooting. And with the needing to control the whole zones of magic you think the boosted versions of the strats would be better. The SoT can't charge and only get 6" in the zone of magic? Many armies have 3" deep strike with no control requirement, and daemons can do this in the same way, but are able to charge, and with much better melee units. I don't get why anyone thought SoT charging from 6" in your zone of magic would be broken, and it would give a good reason to actually bring them, you know instead of spamming flamers. I know people were like "oh no it is going to be Tzanngors" but quite frankly I would have loved a Tzgor detachment, just to play a list that is not exactly like 99% of all lists that are played with TS, and I try not to use Magnus as he is too great in casual games. I was excited to break out the TS for a bit as opposed to my CSM, but now I am not going to bother as this detachment is just more of the same, only weaker.
Hilariously, Magnus works best in that detachment NOT in the zone of control since he natively has +1 to wound with his [PSYCHIC] weapons - which is all of them.
BorderCountess wrote: Hilariously, Magnus works best in that detachment NOT in the zone of control since he natively has +1 to wound with his [PSYCHIC] weapons - which is all of them.
Lol yea I know it is weird. Also after seeing the Admech detachment, that rule really could not have been in the zone 1's to rerolll and +1 wound? I mean the zone thing I think is more challenging than it looks on paper, especially against some armies. Also rubrics get re-roll 1's already, and Ahriman is +1 to wound already, but for everything.
Personally I think there are going to be major design changes in the codex and this reflects that. It is quite possible that Rubrics lose the re-rolls, and Magnus loses the +1 to wound, which is actually a pretty ridiculous rule to have. I also think the cult of magic will be heavily re-worked, and/or just removed for something else, maybe something that focuses on the rituals more (like characters generate and extra cabal point or something).
I really hope the Codex has a "hypercrypt" style detachment to represent the old duplicity style of play, and I am actually hoping daemons get rolled into the codex. Also Rubrics need two data sheets, one for the flamers, and one for the bolters as the flamers are just so much better and the points are way to high for the bolters.
Also, psyker dreadnought.....been wanting that since 7th edition.
::edit:: Seems like the Grey knights have the same 6" deep strike ability, but can charge. In fact their whole new detachment looks like just a straight better version of ours. The rule affects all attacks (not just psychic attacks), they have a unit that has the aura innately (purifiers), and their strats seem better. Hopefully the codex is better.
I'm not entirely sure if the meme of Magic Knights is all that bad any more, just for something entirely different to do. Yes, it'd probably be better in Cult than Hex, but it does almost exactly the same thing. I'd love to work out a way that a foot-DP can help out, but you kinda need the movement from the flying (but an occasional extra -1 is good alongside Forgefiends). Anyway, just for a laugh, this is this MFM's Magic Knights list (with very little actual magic):
Spoiler:
Magic Knights (1995 points)
Thousand Sons
Strike Force (2000 points)
Hexwarp Thrallband
CHARACTERS
Thousand Sons Daemon Prince with Wings (200 points)
• Warlord
• 1x Hellforged weapons
1x Infernal cannon
• Enhancement: Arcane Might
(It has +1Str. +1! In melee! Sometimes very rarely +2!)
Thousand Sons Daemon Prince with Wings (195 points)
• 1x Hellforged weapons
1x Infernal cannon
• Enhancement: Noctilith Mantle
(It has +1 to wound in melee! But can't cast. Not exactly a downside in this list)
BATTLELINE
Rubric Marines (200 points)
• 1x Aspiring Sorcerer
• 1x Force weapon
1x Inferno bolt pistol
1x Warpsmite
• 9x Rubric Marine
• 9x Close combat weapon
1x Icon of Flame
1x Soulreaper cannon
8x Warpflamer
(Guess who's deepstriking? These guys!
Remember, you can split fire with auto-hits, I think. Elves? Yep)
OTHER DATASHEETS
3x Mutalith Vortex Beast (160 points, 480pts)
• 1x Betentacled maw
1x Mutalith claws
1x Warp vortex
(Horribly difficult to take down, does light shooting and melee. Never underestimate the melty/ battleshock aura x3. It does quite a lot)
Thousand Sons Cultists (55 points)
• 1x Thousand Sons Cultist Champion
• 1x Brutal assault weapon
1x Cultist firearm
• 9x Thousand Sons Cultist
• 9x Brutal assault weapon
6x Cultist firearm
1x Flamer
1x Grenade launcher
1x Heavy stubber
(How good does a scout move feel, when you've got no magic?)
3x Thousand Sons Forgefiend (145 pts, 435pts)
• 3x Ectoplasma cannon
1x Forgefiend claw
(F'ing Kabooms! A bit worse than you'd think, but good against stuff. Just, most things)
3x 3 Tzaangor Enlightened (50 points, 150pts)
• 1x Aviarch
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Fatecaster greatbow
• 2x Enlightened
• 2x Close combat weapon
2x Fatecaster greatbow
(3x fast trash units for more scoring. And they have precision. Could ditch one for more Cultists. But having 18x sniper 4+ shots does do stuff)
ALLIED UNITS
2x War Dog Huntsman (140 points, 280pts)
• 1x Daemonbreath meltagun
1x Daemonbreath spear
1x Reaper chaintalon
(Honestly pretty serious anti-tank. And there's a weird amount of melee in the list, so these can help with that too).
If you know how to run Chaos Knights, this will be easy. If you don't, this still will be easier, in some ways. Anyway, it should be fun, just for something completely different. Fast to play on model movement (or removent) in any case ?
As always with my builds, there is plenty of room to move on it. Drop a Forgefiend, add a Predator tank, or Maulerfiend (free heroic intervention is awesome, but so is big guns never tire), or even another wardog. Or some cultists/ or tzaangor. You could drop the flying DP enhancements to squeeze in other stuff too (more crappy snipers/OC, whatever). Or drop them entirely for 2x 20 Tzaangor with Shamans, or more Rubrics, but it wouldn't really be a wardog-equivalent list then, it'd just be a worse TSons list. You probably could squeeze Ahriman in there if you wanted some actual magic, but again, it sort of defeats the point (even though it would be more effective). But dropping the second flying DP does look pretty tempting, and gives you enough points to add "anything".
Not the best list, but certainly an ok'ish one to run. Somewhere between CK-wardog and monster-mash, but with actually good profiles and a bit of infantry. Not every tool in the box, but not bad either. It has a flat "can do stuff against stuff" with all that varying firepower and melee profiles. As well as enough cool random stuff to potentially do, so it doesn't just feel like stat-blocks without any magic'yness to it. And in some ways, is an anti-TSons list, even while being a TSons list. We all know what happens to our own army when units equal -3 by the end of turn 2, and this list can tear chunks out of armies. It's actually nice to have this many unit activations that don't really rely on cabal points, to get the job done. 15 fairly powerful activations per turn is fine, with 10 of them being wardog-equivalent, so it doesn't leave you stranded. MSU, but what did you expect out of a pseudo-wardog list? They have good rules, without too many points taxes.
Stat-check list, but considering the beginning of 10th to now, it's still nice to be able to say "F* the elves, the Guard/Orks, the Marines, and hopefully the Necrons too". They often don't have the stuff they'll need to kill you in a certain section of the battlefield, or the movement, or you've got the exact right thing to engage them/ remove those abilities from them.
It's good to do different things. And "no Ahriman, no Magnus!" isn't exactly a heretical statement on our list, no matter how good they are.
((Edit for the new MFM. Guess what? They point nerfed MVBs! Again. Hurrah??!! So, yes, you have -15pts on this list, because GW are arseholes that don't have a clue. I'd probably keep Noctilith because it's 100% +1 to-wound (which is apparently what this detachment was meant to do sometimes), rather than +1S/20pts. And with 10pts left over, you could even sub out our beloved scouting Cultists into not-so-beloved Tzaangor, because 20OC is more than 10. Little options. I'd probably keep the screening Cultists, but it kinda does f*-over some stuff with "3 left, still more than a 5x 1oc squad. You do you))
Well, we're up soon, after the purple bois, the angry-bois, and the farty-bois. What are you looking at gaining from the list?
Like, we've got slightly eldari-looking robot'y things, confirmed. (God I hope they're as broken as epic eldar stuff was. That's all I could think when I saw them. "That's a tiny Revenant Titan! That will be awesome!").
Stuff we're obviously not goin g to get, like cool-looking robots or psychic dreadnoughts. In fact, we're going to probably lose more than we gain (RIP cultists) and I'll bet their demon detachment sucks.
Well, I'm holding out judgement on that until we get some concrete information going.
I have high hopes for our codex and that GW is aware of player feedback that our faction is a one-trick pony. I hope they diversify our portfolio by changing the entire army rule around.
DaPino wrote: I have high hopes for our codex and that GW is aware of player feedback that our faction is a one-trick pony.
::side-eyes the World Eaters::
I know Tzeentch is supposed to be the embodiment of hope, but sometimes even I have to temper my expectations.
::Looks around nervously before poking the beehive::
Ahem.
I remember a 40k book, that no one reads anymore, had a quote, "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
I mean you did get robots. More like UR-025 Imperial Robots than Psychic Dreadnoughts, but still... Robots.
To ignore my own dumb quote, they could have really cool rules... and TBH I'm kinda jealous of you getting new toys.
New toys for which I'm strongly considering proxies because they look terrible. I'm just hoping this doesn't make me revisit the thread about using models that I hate because they're too good not to.
DaPino wrote: I have high hopes for our codex and that GW is aware of player feedback that our faction is a one-trick pony.
::side-eyes the World Eaters::
I know Tzeentch is supposed to be the embodiment of hope, but sometimes even I have to temper my expectations.
::Looks around nervously before poking the beehive::
Ahem.
I remember a 40k book, that no one reads anymore, had a quote, "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
I mean you did get robots. More like UR-025 Imperial Robots than Psychic Dreadnoughts, but still... Robots.
To ignore my own dumb quote, they could have really cool rules... and TBH I'm kinda jealous of you getting new toys.
New toys for which I'm strongly considering proxies because they look terrible. I'm just hoping this doesn't make me revisit the thread about using models that I hate because they're too good not to.
Noble Knight has a bunch of UR-025s (from the Blackstone Fortress game) for sale.
Honestly looking at it, I think I'm just going to use my Osiron dreads for them. They're a bit larger but no one in my local community will care; I checked with them of course.
I'm still feeling a little underwhelmed by the new robots, but it sounds like 4 of these things deploying on a mid-field objective is going to be pretty mandatory. Their flamers will (probably) make short work of enemy Infiltrators and/or chaff, the hellfyre missiles can threaten larger targets, and I'm going to assume the claws make them fairly punchy.
BorderCountess wrote: I'm still feeling a little underwhelmed by the new robots, but it sounds like 4 of these things deploying on a mid-field objective is going to be pretty mandatory. Their flamers will (probably) make short work of enemy Infiltrators and/or chaff, the hellfyre missiles can threaten larger targets, and I'm going to assume the claws make them fairly punchy.
Do you think that these new robots will change how the 1ksons play?
BorderCountess wrote: I'm still feeling a little underwhelmed by the new robots, but it sounds like 4 of these things deploying on a mid-field objective is going to be pretty mandatory. Their flamers will (probably) make short work of enemy Infiltrators and/or chaff, the hellfyre missiles can threaten larger targets, and I'm going to assume the claws make them fairly punchy.
Do you think that these new robots will change how the 1ksons play?
Not really. The army focuses on its character doing magic stuff, and the robots don't help with that (presumably). They don't even really do much that the army doesn't already do, what with 10-man units of Rubric Marines with warpflamers and Terminators already being things.
BorderCountess wrote: I'm still feeling a little underwhelmed by the new robots, but it sounds like 4 of these things deploying on a mid-field objective is going to be pretty mandatory. Their flamers will (probably) make short work of enemy Infiltrators and/or chaff, the hellfyre missiles can threaten larger targets, and I'm going to assume the claws make them fairly punchy.
Do you think that these new robots will change how the 1ksons play?
Not really. The army focuses on its character doing magic stuff, and the robots don't help with that (presumably). They don't even really do much that the army doesn't already do, what with 10-man units of Rubric Marines with warpflamers and Terminators already being things.
What's the thematic reason for their inclusion, if they dont really add anything tactically to the army?
BorderCountess wrote: I'm still feeling a little underwhelmed by the new robots, but it sounds like 4 of these things deploying on a mid-field objective is going to be pretty mandatory. Their flamers will (probably) make short work of enemy Infiltrators and/or chaff, the hellfyre missiles can threaten larger targets, and I'm going to assume the claws make them fairly punchy.
Do you think that these new robots will change how the 1ksons play?
Not really. The army focuses on its character doing magic stuff, and the robots don't help with that (presumably). They don't even really do much that the army doesn't already do, what with 10-man units of Rubric Marines with warpflamers and Terminators already being things.
What's the thematic reason for their inclusion, if they dont really add anything tactically to the army?
Assuming they tie them into the Heresy era fluff, some Thousand Sons specialized in using their powers to psychically commune with machines. So the guy managing your tanks or flying your plane might be one such specialist, and those guys would also command the legion's battle automata. So I imagine these new 'bots are meant to be the 41st millenium version of that.
Personally, I like them. I like their look, and I like that their missile racks give us some long-ranged anti-tank other than land raiders and predators. I'll probably pick up a couple of boxes.
BorderCountess wrote: I'm still feeling a little underwhelmed by the new robots, but it sounds like 4 of these things deploying on a mid-field objective is going to be pretty mandatory. Their flamers will (probably) make short work of enemy Infiltrators and/or chaff, the hellfyre missiles can threaten larger targets, and I'm going to assume the claws make them fairly punchy.
Do you think that these new robots will change how the 1ksons play?
Not really. The army focuses on its character doing magic stuff, and the robots don't help with that (presumably). They don't even really do much that the army doesn't already do, what with 10-man units of Rubric Marines with warpflamers and Terminators already being things.
What's the thematic reason for their inclusion, if they dont really add anything tactically to the army?
Thematically, the Crusade-era Thousand Sons were such a small Legion that was less excited about getting up close and personal with the enemy, so they liked to use battlebots to do their fighting for them. Given that preserving their numbers is less of an issue these days, I really don't see a thematic reason. I really have no idea why GW didn't just 'modernize' their Heresy automata. Those bots Tzeentched-out would look badass.
Lathe Biosas wrote: I'm at a loss for what you can use as a proxy. I checked etsy and other sites... so far, nothing.
I do think the old plastic chaos Dreadnoughts (RT era) might work... I think they can fit on a 40mm base.
Castellax have a lot more bulk but appear to be similar in height. Thallax with an increased base height would work for overall bulk. Vorax are a little low to the ground.
Classic chaos dreads are indeed the right size.
My main issue with the new bots is that only one has a cool ushabti style head. If the other bot had a jackal, crocodile, ibis, etc head instead of a whole scarab it would look better. We might also get to see them in alternate schemes this week when they drop some articles on war com.
I really like the art. So maybe they just need more gold. I don't think anybody thought the preview 'eavy metal paint scheme was a great choice.
What's the thematic reason for their inclusion, if they dont really add anything tactically to the army?
They do give TS something with Infiltrate, so there's that.
They're also Infiltrators with a nasty (free) Overwatch if you go with the Claw+Handflamer option, where you average 14 S5 AP2 hits and 8 S4 AP1 hits (that all ignore cover) and a Helfyre Missile hit or two + they have decent enough punch in melee.
Do they give TS something they sorely need? Not really, but they do give them something they didn't have, and I'm all for it.
What's the thematic reason for their inclusion, if they dont really add anything tactically to the army?
They do give TS something with Infiltrate, so there's that.
They're also Infiltrators with a nasty (free) Overwatch if you go with the Claw+Handflamer option, where you average 14 S5 AP2 hits and 8 S4 AP1 hits (that all ignore cover) and a Helfyre Missile hit or two + they have decent enough punch in melee.
Do they give TS something they sorely need? Not really, but they do give them something they didn't have, and I'm all for it.
The Rubric-based detachment has an enhancement that gives two (?) units of Rubric Marines Infiltrate. So far, that detachment is my favorite. Having finally seen the whole datasheet for the robots, they seem good for their points. 45 points per model nets decent defensive stats, a heavy flamer, a mini flamer, a hellfyre rack, and a power claw, all with Infiltrate and Stealth plus free Overwatch or Heroic Intervention.
I think the book it looking pretty good. The Tzgor and daemon detachment seem kind of niche, but the others look pretty good. I have come around on the change to the cabal, having the test and the ability to only use the 3 dice if necessary and try again with another unit if you fail offsets the old issue of failing all your psych tests. Also, now we don't need to maximize the number of sorcerers in the army to generate points, so can spend on other units.
Well here we go, there's a group of sekhetar bots painted in a more traditional 40k Thousand Sons style and they do look a lot better. Unfortunately looking at the article there doesn't appear to be any alternate heads. Hopefully we'll get some sprue review pics from Stahly, tomorrow, to confirm exactly what you can build from the kit.
Yea the robots look a lot better in other paint schemes then that bone looking one. I like the traditional paint, also the one where it blends into the background it cool. They also have pretty good stats and I think they will be a staple of competitive lists
I think its the perpendicular gun-arms. Its sort of screaming "90s plastic toy" at me rather than "2020s gaming miniature."
Also I really just don't like the idea. Its kind of Centurion-esque. "Lets create a unit between a Terminator and a Dreadnought." "Why?" "Just cos."
Yea I agree that the flamer arm should probably have been an upper arm with the flamer attached as the lower arm, similar to the melta gun. That would have looked better, but with the right paint job they don't look terrible.
As a lore prospective, I like it. Thousand Sons used automata in the HH, and it does fit their theme of using automated guards who don't ask questions or get curious about what treasures they are guarding. (like rubrics and SoT).
Although I would have rather had a psyker dreadnought added to the range, but I plan on picking up a box of these guys in a few months, once the initial craziness of the pre-orders and initial drop ends.
I think they look "fine" (not great, not terrible), their rules seem good without being busted, and the thought of Infiltrating 4 Heavy Warpflamers and 4 Warpflame Projectors while overwatching without paying CP for it fills me with glee.
I think they look "fine" (not great, not terrible), their rules seem good without being busted, and the thought of Infiltrating 4 Heavy Warpflamers and 4 Warpflame Projectors while overwatching without paying CP for it fills me with glee.
So, yeah, the 'Eavy Metal paint job was doing a lot of the work towards me hating these things. I'm still not sold on that scarab face, tough.
I'm already playing with the idea of infiltrating 12 of these of things along with 20 Rubric Marines (with Warpflamers, obviously). Start the game owning the mid-board and I freaking dare you to chase me off of it.
I think they look "fine" (not great, not terrible), their rules seem good without being busted, and the thought of Infiltrating 4 Heavy Warpflamers and 4 Warpflame Projectors while overwatching without paying CP for it fills me with glee.
So, yeah, the 'Eavy Metal paint job was doing a lot of the work towards me hating these things. I'm still not sold on that scarab face, tough.
I'm already playing with the idea of infiltrating 12 of these of things along with 20 Rubric Marines (with Warpflamers, obviously). Start the game owning the mid-board and I freaking dare you to chase me off of it.
That's why my default list takes Infiltrators galore. I win deployment? Good luck taking the middle when there's now an 18+" bubble you can't go in!
I think the vehicle detachment might be best even for mixed lists. Unlike other vehicle detachments it still encourages you to take psyker key word so mix with character and rubrics and SoT. And TS usually struggle with heavy targets. The character rubric and SoT data sheets are pretty good against light medium infantry without any support and the vehicle detachment really amps up the damage to powerful low shot weapons to kill heavy targets. I think that one is going to get played a lot.
Magic Knights, new Codex (now potentially with a tiny bit of magic!).
Spoiler:
Magic Knights - Thousand Sons - Warpforged Cabal (1975 Points)
Thousand Sons Daemon Prince with wings with Biomechanical Mutation (185 pts)
Thousand Sons Daemon Prince with wings (170 pts)
Tzaangor Shaman with Warp Syphon (60 pts)
War Dog Huntsman (140 pts)
War Dog Karnivore (140 pts)
It lost a bit of OC, but gained infiltrating robots. And a shaman for one of the Enlightened. And occasional magic. And occasional rerolls for some of your vehicles. Still jank, but still doable.
Watched a battle report from Tabletop Tactics with the new book (but the book's printed points, which are generally higher than the leaked MFM points). The faction ability really does feel like a psychic phase.
I guess its just echoing the broad internet - but while I think its cool they exist, Warpmeld Pact and Changehost of Deceit look like quite weak detachments. I think both suffer from just not buffing widely enough.
Rather than being "Tzaangor: the detachment", it feels like Warpmeld is "Mutaliths: the detachment". Its the only unit which really benefits from the rules, so logically you should take 3. I guess you can put 20 Tzaangor on an objective, and with -1 to wound and a 4++ its not a trivial matter to get rid of them. Potentially with -1 to hit from a daemon prince too. But for a few points more, you could have just had 10 Rubrics or 5 Scarabs. So... is it really worth it?
I think part of the issue is that the core rules/ not quite psychic phase is really focused on ranged units. Two buffs to ranged attacks (hitting/ap) - and a movement ability that stops you charging. So if you make an assault focused list (Tzaangor, Spear Enlightened, Spawn) you aren't really benefiting from the army rule. But then if you aren't taking mutants, you aren't really benefiting from the detachment rule. Not saying its unplayable, but just feel like the synergy is weak.
Its much the same case with the Daemons. They don't benefit from the spells even with their ranged attacks. And half the detachment ability just seems to be that Kairos or LoC can cast them when in 6" of a Thousand Sons unit. Which is.. something I guess... but you probably aren't exactly wanting for other casters? (Although having the LoC potentially eat a few mortals is probably preferably to eating Rubrics/Scarabs) So what's the draw? A 4++ but only against ranged attacks? This is just so very tame.
I'm reasonably confident by contrast the Warpforged Cabal is just going to get hard nerfed - or it is alone is going to drive the points up of all Thousand Sons vehicles to the point where they aren't remotely viable in other detachments. Getting a reroll to hit, wound and damage is insane. Have they learned nothing from index-era Eldar?
I think Warpmeld Pact is a great detachment, honestly. It doesn't have as much raw killing power as the vehicle detachment (although MVBs can pack some serious firepower), but it's very mobile and can let you jail your opponents and use uppy-downy Tzaangors to steal backfield objectives and such. I mean, given what Tzaangors can do (and the 6" consolidate strat), if you get first turn, it won't be impossible to throw a big block of 17+ Tzaangors in your opponent's face who are -1 to hit, -1 to wound, and have a 4++. That's a pain in the ass jail to break out of. The detachment also has a pseudo-sticky objective strat (the one that lets you turn a dead character into a Spawn), and you can even build your big Tzaangor unit back up with another strat. Granted the Tzaangors aren't going to kill anything tougher than a Guardsman, but that's why you bring other stuff like MVBs and Enlightened (or, hell, even just regular Rubrics and stuff like that). Obviously we'll have to see how it plays on the table, but I suspect it will do pretty well.
I think the Tgor detachment will be good in the same way that the cultist one and zombie one is. If you skew it to lots of bodies and scoring points instead of playing the damage game. Not my particular style, but I bet at least one person wins an event with something like that. It also helps that the detachment rule affect the Mutilth, making them really hard to deal with. Any competitive list for this detachment will probably have like 80 to 100 Tgors, and three mutiliths. With the -1 to wound ability that is a lot of bodies to get through for most lists (ironically, Tsons have a lot of the tools to deal with that list with all the flamers that you can include).
I think for most people the competitive list will be the vehicle detachment as it fills a role that the Tsons lack, which is good anti-tank. Like I said above the base datasheets are already super efficient against light and medium infantry so making your anti-tank super efficient is probably what you want. Also I am not sold on the Coven detachment as, unless you are bringing Magnus (who is not an auto-include anymore) I don't think you get a whole lot out of the detachment rule, and really the only good one is the +1 to wound, as most psychic attacks already have [Devastating Wounds]. I like the enhancements though especially the +1 S/dam one.
I don't think the rubric one will be that powerful unless you just build into it with rubrics (SoT don't get much of of the detachment rule) and bring like 60 rubrics. Again I think someone will have success with that kind of skew list, but not my thing.
It's kind of a pity that we can't still take our index list, but with the new MFM points and Codex rules. There would be a lot of fun things to do with it. Having dev/sus/lethal psychic on any particular turn, and strats that fit the new army make-up a bit better, and some rather tasty enhancements, would have been nice.
And for the Warphex Thrallbrand one... I read a comment somewhere that put it like this "Hey, now a Rhino does everything that entire detachment did!". So yeah, it's still not great, although the lowered points cost and the changes to magic does make it better imo.
I haven't played it yet, but I think it looks like there will be some builds. I think Magnus and some DPs in the coven will be good, Mutaliths are good, Enlightened with Bows are good, and both Rubrics and SoT look solid. Ahriman is complete trash now, guess that is punishment for being auto include in the index (although so was Magnus so who knows)
I think one of the issues is that there is no detachment that supports all or even the majority of units. We don't have a Battle Host, or VotlW style detachments that just kind of helps everything. So each detachment is going to have to have a specific build, and you will be drawing on the raw power of the data sheets most of the time, but the core ones seem good and costed to move (for now) so I think that will be all right.
I am thinking for my first game either the vehicle detachment to support the AT fire, or the Coven with DPs and more characters. Not sure which one I am going to do yet. If I owned three Mutaliths I would use the Tzgor detachment just to buff them, and then bring a unit of Enlightened and one small skirmishing squad of Tzgor for objectives. That detachment rule makes the Mutaliths so nasty it is worth it just to support them.
The daemon detachment is just bad from the look of it. If the 4++ was to any model, not just infantry, then it might be ok, but it needs to support the daemons who are not LoC more.
I am not sold on the Rubric detachment, unless you are going full stop Rubrics. I don't think the SoT gain very much on average from that rule, and I think even if you have SoT and Rubrics, the Coven is better with better strats and enhancments, or bring the Tzgor detachment/vehicle detachment to amp up your AT shots.
Those are just my thoughts. Hopefully will get a game in soon enough and we can see what they do on the table.
I really wish that we could take 500 points of daemons in the other detachments. The limitation to one detachment seems to restrictive (I know all the other god legions are the same). It is not even because I think that it is competitive, I just like using a sprinkling of daemons.
xeen wrote: I really wish that we could take 500 points of daemons in the other detachments. The limitation to one detachment seems to restrictive (I know all the other god legions are the same). It is not even because I think that it is competitive, I just like using a sprinkling of daemons.
It really feels like their intent was to remove demons as an army in 40k, but I completely agree with you. No herald-level characters for devoted Legions? Feels weird. And several lesser units are omitted, as well (such as Burning Chariots).
xeen wrote: I really wish that we could take 500 points of daemons in the other detachments. The limitation to one detachment seems to restrictive (I know all the other god legions are the same). It is not even because I think that it is competitive, I just like using a sprinkling of daemons.
It really feels like their intent was to remove demons as an army in 40k, but I completely agree with you. No herald-level characters for devoted Legions? Feels weird. And several lesser units are omitted, as well (such as Burning Chariots).
Do you think Daemons will have a place (possibly as a Detachment) in the new Chaos Knights 'dex?
xeen wrote: I really wish that we could take 500 points of daemons in the other detachments. The limitation to one detachment seems to restrictive (I know all the other god legions are the same). It is not even because I think that it is competitive, I just like using a sprinkling of daemons.
It really feels like their intent was to remove demons as an army in 40k, but I completely agree with you. No herald-level characters for devoted Legions? Feels weird. And several lesser units are omitted, as well (such as Burning Chariots).
Do you think Daemons will have a place (possibly as a Detachment) in the new Chaos Knights 'dex?
No. Given the Grotmas detachments the two Knights factions got, I'm not expecting any in-codex allies. Frankly, I'm having a hard time imagining getting more than 3 or 4 detachments, because frankly how many ways can you play "big, stompy mechs"? For Chaos Knights, at least, I'm expecting different detachments for Iconoclast vs. Infernal households, but I have no idea what else to expect.
xeen wrote: I really wish that we could take 500 points of daemons in the other detachments. The limitation to one detachment seems to restrictive (I know all the other god legions are the same). It is not even because I think that it is competitive, I just like using a sprinkling of daemons.
It really feels like their intent was to remove demons as an army in 40k, but I completely agree with you. No herald-level characters for devoted Legions? Feels weird. And several lesser units are omitted, as well (such as Burning Chariots).
Do you think Daemons will have a place (possibly as a Detachment) in the new Chaos Knights 'dex?
No. Given the Grotmas detachments the two Knights factions got, I'm not expecting any in-codex allies. Frankly, I'm having a hard time imagining getting more than 3 or 4 detachments, because frankly how many ways can you play "big, stompy mechs"? For Chaos Knights, at least, I'm expecting different detachments for Iconoclast vs. Infernal households, but I have no idea what else to expect.
Not to threadjack this... thread, but the rumor mill (I pulled it off B&C, so take it with a mountain of salt) says that Big Stompy Robots, non-spiky edition will have these detachments.
Detachmnets:
Defenders of the Realm: warpbane/canoptec court rule ( deployment zone counting as Protected ground/etc etc)
As long you sit on Protected ground, +1 to hit / additional +1 to wound if also staying on an objective
Sticky objectives strat
Omnissiah conclave: buff table, active all game, at the start of the battle either pick one or roll twice
+1 to Hit melee
+1 A on strikes / +3A on sweeps
+1 STR to ranged weapons
+1 BS while stationary
+1" M
+2" charge
Strat to give one extra buff for the turn to a model (armigers take MW when using it)
Freeblades Crusader: ignore the degrading profile stat malus on all <Imperial Knight> keyworded units
If no friendly unit within 6", 5+ FNP
Adamantine Hunt: can deploy units in the reinforcement step of the first 3 turns, regardless of mission rules
They also can use strategic reserves counting the turn as +1
Enchancement for DS and stratagem for 6" drop
That might give an idea of what Chaos Knights might have.
Now back to your regularly scheduled 1000 Sons Thread...
I've been spending probably too much time idly thinking through the Changehost of Deceit detachment.
Was hoping after the internet negativity my natural tendency to snowflake could find some gold here. And I think people are potentially underestimating some of the movement/defensive tricks, which they are simultaneously rating so highly in the Warpmeld Pact Detachment.
But... I'm sort of coming to a general conclusion on all the Daemon Detachments (maybe not the WE one, but I've looked at WE the least). The Chaos Codexes are all I think reasonably pushed. Maybe they won't appear so much after a balance pass - but at least on release they feel a step up from the start of 10th edition. As you'd tend to expect with late edition codexes. Moderation wanes in the face of handing out perks to datasheets and more interesting special rules.
The Daemons by contrast seem largely just as they were. And as a result kind of second rate.
So you could take Kairos and LOCs - but while they were quite reasonable, even good, at the start of the edition, I'm not sure at 260/250, you are getting enough for your points today. Sure you can go full Monster Mash with Magnus and MVBs - but this isn't really gaining anything from the detachment. Its a pure stat check.
Then you start comparing Flamers versus Flamer Rubrics. Smaller squads are cheaper and faster - but the firepower is unlikely to hit a critical threshhold. Screamers versus Stabby Enlightened? There's the perk of being able to take the big unit of 6 screamers for 160 - but idk. Horrors are potentially in an interesting spot versus Rubrics/Tzaangors - but probably not so much you'd be excited by them.
And while some have suggested keep the daemons to the minimum, you need them to be targets for many of your stratagems. Which is where I think the deceptive scoring power lies.
So I sort of reach the conclusion that the detachment is probably quite playable - because of the inherent power of the Thousand Sons codex. But its unclear beyond fun why you'd go this route. Much I think like the detachments for Emperors Children and Death Guard (who are a bit bonkers).
But maybe "fun" allied detachments that aren't super competitive but are still playable are good for the game. I like the GSC/Tyranid one for example. And if they aren't causing balance problems, they can exist for players who want to run something different, rather than are focused purely on results.
Here's a fun party trick for the Rubricae Phalanx:
Rubric Marines with an Exalted Sorcerer attached. Enemy shoots at the unit. Assign wounds to the Aspiring Sorcerer. When the shooting stops, use Revenge of the Rubricae to shoot back, since a Psyker model just died. Exalted Sorcerer then gets to revive the Aspiring Sorcerer.
Rubric Marines with an Exalted Sorcerer attached. Enemy shoots at the unit. Assign wounds to the Aspiring Sorcerer. When the shooting stops, use Revenge of the Rubricae to shoot back, since a Psyker model just died. Exalted Sorcerer then gets to revive the Aspiring Sorcerer.
Rinse and repeat.
I can see myself try this and immediately roll a 1 on the res-attempt...
Rubric Marines with an Exalted Sorcerer attached. Enemy shoots at the unit. Assign wounds to the Aspiring Sorcerer. When the shooting stops, use Revenge of the Rubricae to shoot back, since a Psyker model just died. Exalted Sorcerer then gets to revive the Aspiring Sorcerer.
Rinse and repeat.
I can see myself try this and immediately roll a 1 on the res-attempt...
Playing a Tzeentch army requires a certain sense of humor. After all, Tzeentch is, by far, the most fickle of the Chaos Gods.
Rubric Marines with an Exalted Sorcerer attached. Enemy shoots at the unit. Assign wounds to the Aspiring Sorcerer. When the shooting stops, use Revenge of the Rubricae to shoot back, since a Psyker model just died. Exalted Sorcerer then gets to revive the Aspiring Sorcerer.
Rinse and repeat.
Sooo.... how would one go about negating that? I'm sure Tzeentch wouldn't mind you sharing that with me.
Rubric Marines with an Exalted Sorcerer attached. Enemy shoots at the unit. Assign wounds to the Aspiring Sorcerer. When the shooting stops, use Revenge of the Rubricae to shoot back, since a Psyker model just died. Exalted Sorcerer then gets to revive the Aspiring Sorcerer.
Rinse and repeat.
Sooo.... how would one go about negating that? I'm sure Tzeentch wouldn't mind you sharing that with me.
Don't shoot the Rubric Marines?
Seriously, the only to way to stop it is for the Exalted Sorcerer to roll a 1 on the resurrection roll, which instead inflicts D3 mortal wounds on his unit.
Rubric Marines with an Exalted Sorcerer attached. Enemy shoots at the unit. Assign wounds to the Aspiring Sorcerer. When the shooting stops, use Revenge of the Rubricae to shoot back, since a Psyker model just died. Exalted Sorcerer then gets to revive the Aspiring Sorcerer.
Rinse and repeat.
Sooo.... how would one go about negating that? I'm sure Tzeentch wouldn't mind you sharing that with me.
Use Precision weapons to snipe out the Exalted Sorcerer, I suppose.
Or just kill the rubricae with a unit that they aren't particularly good at hurting. They're only allowed to shoot at the thing that killed the psyker model, so plinking away at them with a vehicle can leave them reluctant to waste the CP. You can also possibly mindgame it a little. Once the aspiring sorcerer takes a save, he has to keep taking saves. So if you nickle and dime him with shots from units that have a good chance of doing 1 wound to the squad but not 2, you can get him to commit to hurting the sorcerer and then follow-up with one of those bad targets (like a vehicle) to finish the sorcerer off. At which point, he either uses the strat against your vehicle or is stuck not using the strat on that unit for the rest of the turn.
Just got my first game in with the new 'dex. Impressions:
* Army feels good overall. I was ready to be cranky about the new army rule (I don't like having a chance for my psykers to fail to be psychic), but your chances of getting at least the baby version of the ritual off are pretty good. I played coven and didn't fail a single cast all game thanks to the reroll strat. Just be ready to roll the 3rd die every time and accept that you're going to blow up some rubricae from time to time.
* I ran Ahriman and used his special rule to dump 2x10 rubrics, an exalted sorcerer + Ahriman, and a daemon prince into reserves. They all arrived together and were a really gnarly pile of models that my opponent couldn't really remove. That said, I'll probably be avoiding Ahriman *unless* I want to build my list around a giant haymaker like that. A regular or exalted sorcerer is probably better in most other situations.
* I've been running a lot of 10-man squads. I think I need to convert up some sorcerers and start running 2x5 instead. Outside of a couple very specific combos (phalanx bolter rubrics coming out of a rhino using Infernal Fussillade, flamer rubrics using overwatch), there just aren't a ton of rules that add much efficiency for large units. And I really felt my lack of board presence/screening/numbers.
* Bolters being AP-2 to flamers' AP-1 is an interesting move. I don't hate it. Between their range and all the ways we have to buff bolter shots, they actually feel like a real choice despite how good overwatching flamers are.
* I miss my cultists. Not only were they a big part of my fluff, they also gave me an easy way to add screening action monkeys to the list.
* Tzaangor do feel better now on the whole, but they're a completely different animal now. Outside of the mutant detachment, there isn't really a way to make them durable at all, and their offense and defense continue to be non-existent. The shaman, being able to sacrifice some of them to power himself up is cute, but even with a lucky roll, he generally won't be hitting anything hard enough to make much of a difference. *Maybe* in coven on a turn that you give his psychic weapons DW?
I feel like tzaangor are good tools for going for No Man's Land objectives/secondaries with their uppy downy. The shaman is probably best used as a cheap objective sitter in the back.
* I didn't really use them in this game, but list building was way more interesting now that vehicles aren't a liability. (Cabal points.)
* Daemon prince on foot walking around with a squad or two of rubricae felt really nice. He buffs their defense (stealth) and can bail them out of melee. They keep him from getting 360 no-scoped by lascannons before he gets across the table.
Well, I've jiggled and I've wiggled, and I still have "an army" out of two starter sets. It's a worse army, and has too many psykers, because GW butchered our army rule, but I've only got so many models (and Fabius Bile, he can sub-in as a Sorc).
Spoiler:
2x Starter Set - Thousand Sons - Grand Coven (2000 Points)
Exalted Sorcerer (80 pts) (Fabius. Meh, makes flamer block "better", but not much. On full points review, -1 of these, +1 shaman below)
Thousand Sons Daemon Prince with wings with Eldritch Vortex of E'taph (195 pts) (winged hive prime, still good at stuff)
Thousand Sons Daemon Prince with wings (170 pts) (winged hive prime, support slightly-less-good at stuff)
Thousand Sons Sorcerer in Terminator Armour with Umbralefic Crystal - Warlord (105 pts) (Termie captain, only need one now bcoz big block of Scarabs)
2x Tzaangor Shaman (120 pts) (leapers with claws cut off, toothpick staff. A bit of versatility on capture points, or into tzaangor blobs. Turns out, it's 3x shaman needed. Huh...)
Scarab Occult Terminators (10 models) (360 pts) (may as well take a brick these days. 2x soul Reapers, 2x teleport homer missile racks, leaper claw/ khopeshes)
20x Tzaangors (20 models) (160 pts) (termagents. Shaman maybe goes here. Chainsword and pistol is close-enough wysiwyg to standard models)
2x 10 Tzaangors (10 models) (140 pts) (more upsy-downsy if required. Little back banners actually look cool-af on these)
2x2 Thousand Sons Chaos Spawn (2 models) (130 pts) (spawn are still good. Leapers with claws work fine)
2x Mutalith Vortex Beast (350 pts) (psycophages. I'd like my army rule to occasionally do something. Especially with the nerfs)
So, it's still doable. This army has waaayyyy too many psykers with the "hit it with a nerfing sledge hammer hard" *balance* update, but whatever. It still might do a thing. Why am I such a cheap bastard on GW stuff? This is why. (I'm an Australian, so we pay GW ++tarrifs for no reason, regardless of our $$-value compared to the £, on tiny plastic toys).
:huffing copium now:
(Actually might be 10pts over, I don't think my app updated Vortex yet. So, umm, another Shaman instead of an Exalted Sorc (bile's little ducky bloke)? Might actually look cool in the big Tzaangor blob, so it looks like they had a trained scout captain sorc leading them or something. Back banners and bray horns and all. Lol. Gives the other two shamans independence for being annoying as well. Wiping the sticky off objectives is fun. Could also drop all three Shamans for 3x3 Bow Enlightened, for stuff that actually does stuff, but I don't have those models, and won't buy them. But you really don't need the extra psykers any more)
Anyway, there's plenty of ways the above army could go (as always with my suggestions on builds). As mentioned, drop all 3 shamans for 3x3 Bow Enlightened. Or drop 2 for 2x3 Bows, and keep one for the big screening blob, or just a "not-lone character thing". Sometimes terrain is a hassle to move around.
But there's also, drop 10 Tzaangor for 2x Sekhatar Robots (just fits in, and littering the board with objective takers is never bad).
Could even go a bit silly and drop a shaman and 10 Tzaangor and double down on melee with a Maulerfiend. We have so few command points options, that having one is nice. And no-one expects a TSons melee army.
If you want a "tactical" army, I'd almost do both. Cull whatever you want, and chuck in some Robots and a Maulerfiend. Not sure if it's better, but it is different'er.
Just trying to get a bit of discussion on TSons going. Yeah, 40% win rate, down from 54%'ish in one foul swoop of the nerf hammer.
Did you all pass out from the amount of copium needed?
(And on the horribly cheap bastard side of things, I reckon I could make some sprue-piece guns and shoulder winglets, blu-tack them onto my Von Ryan's leapers/ Spawn, and "call them" Mr Robotos. Same base size, so there's also cheapo options as well. Micro distraction Carnifexes/Lictors, with rocket-launchers. I'm sure that's what the profile says)
I *mostly* dodged the nerf bat after the latest updates. I hadn't gotten around to collecting any mutaliths or enlightened yet, nor do I generally use infernal masters, and I don't own Magnus, so I dodged most of the "big" points hikes. I do sometimes field a landraider and large squads of terminators, and I intend to use the robots once they're available somewhere. So overall, I theoretically came out okay in terms of points.
Phalanx lists are that much less desirable with MSU rubric squads getting more pricey. That adjustment is kind of annoying, tbh. Not because it's actually that big a deal, but because it only seems to exist to encourage us to put more eggs into fewer baskets, which means they're incentivizing us to play wombo-combo lists where we delete everything we point at and field frustratingly durable bricks of terminators.
Not being able to attempt a ritual an extra time is just kind of feelsbad. I was initially worried about the returns of psychic tests basically just equating a % chance of feeling bad. But then I actually tried the rule and found that it was functionally fine because you could typically just keep attempting the cast with extra psykers, which in turn encouraged you to field lots of wizards in your wizard marine army. This change basically takes away that safe guard. If you lose the game because you randomly couldn't move your squad in the shooting phase, then that's that. Sucks to be you.
Yeah. Although the lower magics are "sometimes" about a command point worthy use of stuff (10 flamers with -2AS is still pretty awesome. Same with 10 man termie squads with a Termie Sorcerer for "actually good bolter fire and rockets and assault cannons". But at 465pts, you'd want this to be exquisite-death-murder, not just fun/awesome. That's Knight level pts, and you don't need to teleport, if everything is dead).
In Grand Coven, especially with my sort of list, everything psychic already has devastating wounds. So I get 1 turn of +1 to-wound on psychic (pretty big), 1 turn of +6" range (somewhat irrelevant), and a thing that does literally nothing (admittedly does make Dark Blessing shooting from the winged DPs smash a bit harder, especially the Vortex one).
That's so much of the feels bad. Army rule borked, and detachment rule un-synergistic (but with a couple of cool enhancements and strategems). Approximately 2/3rds of my detachment rule does very little, and my army rule is "occasionally have a free strat, because you don't have SM captains". It's sort of weird, yet it doesn't feel too unpowerful, just borked. Points OR army rule nerfs might have been fine, but heavy nerf hammers to both seems stupid.
When I first read the codex, I was kind of iffy on it because the detachments all seemed to have these weird... gaps? Underwhelming parts? Not quite sure what word to use here.
Like, the Grand Coven (which I've been playing almost exclusively) has a lot of great strats and some solid enhancements, but the detachment rule itself is something I almost forget about because the one turn of +1 to-wound is usually the only benefit to really matter. Phalanx has these weird anti-synergies like the psychic bolter strat that would have been great if you had Grand Coven style psychic buffs but only really synergizes with the rhino special rule in Phalanx. Or the enhancement to infiltrate rubric squads that only works if you *don't* attach any characters to those squads.
Basically, I had a moment of worry that these weird "holes" in the detachments might mean the faction was bad, but then on the tabletop it actually worked out fine because between a pretty great army rule and some mostly-okay detachment rules, there was enough "good" there to not be bothered about the seemingly strange design decisions with the detachments.
Having not played my Sons since the changes, I'm hoping that this remains the case. But I'm worried that we might have entered the realm of a feelsbad failed psychic test making the weird detachment rules feel less forgivable.
"Oh, my magic marine who belongs to the magic faction whose whole thing is magic just failed his magic test? Well at least I can *checks notes* hurt a vehicle semi-reliably once per game if I'm in the right detachment."
EDIT: Meanwhile, loyalist marines are over there getting +1 to-wound with entire squads worth of weapons instead of just the sergeants and characters plus full rerolls automatically. I get that our mechanic also gives us the possibility of a bonus move and a doom bolt, and those aren't nothing. But it also feels weird that our versions of the marine mechanics need to be locked behind a once-per-game limitation and a psychic test's failure chance while the marines can just do it automatically and army-wide.
Obviously it would be bad if our mechanics did more than Oath with no drawbacks, but failure chance just seems like such a frustrating mechanic for trying to balance something. "It's overpowered, so we made it randomly not happen sometimes" is just kind of a lose-lose approach to balancing something. I think I'd be happier about the recent changes if instead of the power straight up failing after an unsuccessful cast, we just got the lesser version of the power instead?
I am still bitter about the Terminator Sorcerer change. What is a nice buff to an over-costed Scarab Occult squad, is a massive nerf to the army and builds as a whole.
Would you rather your own mini-85pt Oath for the entire army? Or make Termies not useless, but even more expensive? Graham's Worship did the latter.
It was the one thing that would have made the army still work, even with all the nerfs, but still tactical and cool-af. And they changed that.... (Bizarre stealth nerf, masquerading as a buff).
Also kind of a pity we didn't get a few more Chaos thingies in our list in the Codex. Would have venom crawlers and obliterators unbalance the list? No. But they'd be there, with no new model needed. Just for extra options, that would be great. Oblits fit well into the morphing form Tzeentch'y side (you could even let a Termie Sorc lead them, for sheer over-costed awesome), and more daemon engines are good daemon engines from the TSons perspective (and robots too, I guess).
Venom crawlers would probably make sense, but aren't obliterators infected with a virus? Implying that they're contagious in some fashion? Not sure how well the Sons would take to something like that in their midst after dealing with the flesh change (and the ongoing body horror of unwanted mutations.)
My big unit that I miss is just my cultists. My fluff actually focused pretty heavily on the idea of my warlord cultivating populations of loyal mortals so he could basically farm psykers. A generic cultist model squad with a rule for buffing rituals if they perform an action would have been very on-brand.
Not really sure if TSons hate or embrace the flesh-change. Sure, Ahriman hated it, but considering they are worshippers of the Lord of Change, with plenty of daemon-engines and spawn and basic ability-names backing that idea, I'm not so sure if all TSons sorcerers are totally against the concept. They may see Oblits as a more stable form of it, or a boon of Tzeentch, not necessarily a bad thing.
And yes, we all miss our cultists.
Still, checking Reddit a bit, some people are having some success with multiple Terminator blocks + DP stealth in Phalanx (I cast "Gun!"), there's some ideas for Warpforged lists + many robots (the robots are pretty good, and even some rerolls help), and Coven lists are starting to shift a little closer to what mine is than the standard mega-sorc or Magnus builds (mine's not good, it's just an example).
So I'm pretty sure TSons have a way to go yet, and recent win rates are an adapting-to-nerfs outlier. We can still whinge about them, correctly, but I don't think we're quite in trash tier yet. C/D tier, needing a boost (or anti-nerf), but it's probably not as bad as we bitch about. Still bad, but there's wins available. Top tier tournament wins? Probably not. So a slight tweak is necessary.
(I wonder if the nerfs were because Guilleman's Waankers corporate division didn't see any change in TSons lists after the Codex release in their app data tracking, without realizing no-one uses their app for TSons any more, because it requires a subscription the moment they release a codex?)
I really like the winged prince in the Coven. Give him the +1 damage and the turn he arrives with his boosted attack you pop [Devastating Wounds] and now you have all those 9 shots with [Sustained Hits d3] with two damage. Use the re-roll strat when something really needs to just die. It is a one trick, but has certainly been worth it for just one damage output. Then he really does need to be dealt with as the D2 sweep can be pretty deadly.
Although I do agree our detachments are very pigeon holed. The Coven should really have a rule for the one ability like, "psychic attacks gain [Devastating Wounds], and if they already have [Devastating Wounds] they can re-roll the wound Or re-roll 1's to wound" which I don't think would be game breaking. It is annoying that we don't have a catch all detachment that helps all units (like CSM's Vet of Long war where all units can benefit from the rule, or Eldar's windrider host where is is just the army rule improved). The Grotmas detachment, which sucks soooooooo much, would be cool if they changed it to model's inside the zone of control get to re-roll 1's to wound with all weapons (I know now that is ones outside, but I think this is better), and psychic weapons are the ones that get +1 to wound as well. That would be so much more impactful, make you really want to expand the zones (which now you kind of don't and want the re-roll 1's for the [Devastating Wounds] most units have) and would affect all units. I don't know just something to think about.
Anyone try the vehicle detachment? I am thinking it might make LC hell brutes viable.
White Dwarf 517 has a mini-game: Cavalry Engagements. A 500pt mini game, where you don't get your strats, or your enhancements, and you don't even need a character to lead your force. And every unit needs to be mounted (on a disc, in our case. There's hopeless marine bikes, and bloodletters on daemon mounts and stuff, but for us, it's Tzeentch'y Disc things).
But guess what? TSons actually back-scale to 500pts better now. Here's a prospective list:
Big Disc Biker Gang 500pt - Thousand Sons - Grand Coven
3x Shamans.180pts
2x6 Fatecaster Bow Enlightened. 220pts
1x6 Divining Spear Enlightened. 90pts
10pts for Sticky Objectives on a Shaman.
3 cast attempts per turn, 3+ to-hit on units (or spread the shamans out as objective holders), and some pretty reasonable firepower/ damage/ lethals/ MW/ dev wounds. Probably not Eldar quality, but might not be too bad.
Plenty of other 3 model unit options, or Sorc on disc stuff to fiddle with. But getting 1-2 lower magics off a turn, and one strat per turn, does look fun. Big disc-biker gangs, or split them up as required. 500pts is a new artifact and artform in a way. Thankfully we've got two units and two characters to fill slots.
More Enlightened might be optimal, but who else does magic at these points values?
sambojin wrote: Not really sure if TSons hate or embrace the flesh-change. Sure, Ahriman hated it, but considering they are worshippers of the Lord of Change, with plenty of daemon-engines and spawn and basic ability-names backing that idea, I'm not so sure if all TSons sorcerers are totally against the concept. They may see Oblits as a more stable form of it, or a boon of Tzeentch, not necessarily a bad thing.
In general, I think they still fear it. After all, the Flesh Change turns you into a Chaos Spawn.
Obliterators are Astartes infected with the technovirus. I'm actually okay, lore-wise, with not having them in the list. Besides, didn't Nurgle have a hand in that?
Even terminators were being melted by the firepower.
I'm sure Tzeentch wouldn't mind you sharing that with me.
