So my observation is that the main characters/factions of 40k are all some form of terrible. Some more so, some less. The entire Imperium seems to be a case study in awful, with a heavy dose of inability to perceive itself. At the heart of this seems to be the Black Templars. But they are also kind of a wasted character arc. They seem to be a copy/paste of the Ecliesiarchy as a whole. They are the Misters of Battle basically. The best you can say is they are dialed up to 11. That's it. Everything else about them is just a redo of other group's themes.
So what is the use of Black Templars as a theme? Are they kind of a foil against the characters you should be rooting for? In the DOW books, they seem like psychopathic zealots, who prioritize their honor and self imposed debts over service to the emperor.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So what is the use of Black Templars as a theme? Are they kind of a foil against the characters you should be rooting for? In the DOW books, they seem like psychopathic zealots, who prioritize their honor and self imposed debts over service to the emperor.
I think the name kind of says it all. They're Templars, clearly hearkening to the crusader knights that (depending on who you ask) either lost the plot or were victims of a vicious smear campaign, but were at one point pretty zealous single-minded killers.
They're also black ones, which is like cool and dark. The White Templars might actually be decent chaps, if a bit boring, but the Black Templars are edgy. Probably chew tobacco and use curse words.
My first experience of them was the monstrously cheaty codex they got in 3rd edition, with the remarkable rule that if they routed, they attacked even more or something. The local hobby shop had a run on black and white paint when that book came out, I tell you. No idea what they're up to now. The whole thing felt like a cash grab.
Space Marines are Knights in Space as one of their themes. The Black Templars are the most adherent to that theme. Zealous Crusader archtype.
Perhaps it's an overused trope. But tropes are tropes because they work. Being cliche is not always the wrong answer, in-fact most of the time it is the right answer.
The point has probably just to be the ultimate caricatural knights in space qite frankly, I doubt their genesis goes any deeper than that. Then they got a lore and ya di ya di ya, even becoming as said grotsnik ironicly the perfect Lorgar boys in a way.
But at the get go I'm pretty sure someone at GW thought "look. Crusaders in space that know nothing of reason and just wander off in the galaxy to smash everybody like badass superhuman. How is that not cool?"
As others have pointed out, they're one of the subfactions most known for that crusade-y aesthetic. The "misters of battle" thing was honestly probably a big part of the appeal for a lot of people for a long time. If you wanted to be an ecclesiarchal faction, you could either collect a million guardsmen and some priests, convert your retirement fund into pewter sisters of battle, or you could buy some ever-available space marines and make jokes about the Holy Handgrenade of Antioch.
Personally, my biggest gripe with Black Templars is that they seem to be sharing an aesthetic niche with Dark Angels. I know there are plenty of differences between them, but did we really need two major marine chapters with a "knight" aesthetic (ignoring GK for now)?
But yeah, as someone who doesn't really *get* Black Templars, I think they're just very comfortably the embodiment of a lot of 40k's themes. If you like the themes of zealotry and transhuman soldiers general not-nice war lust, Black Templars are kind of the chapter that embodies that the most. Ultramarines may be the poster boys, but that's because they look heroic and get to pretend that there are good guys in 40k. Templars don't try to convince the audience that they're not so bad after all; they hit you over the head with the idea that the imperium is full of bad guys who think their xenophobic murder sprees are holy and noble.
Personally, my biggest gripe with Black Templars is that they seem to be sharing an aesthetic niche with Dark Angels. I know there are plenty of differences between them, but did we really need two major marine chapters with a "knight" aesthetic (ignoring GK for now)?
Isn't it more fair to call that a gripe with Dark Angels?
If I'm remembering things correctly, BT's got there first. While the early Emperor's Champion models were already looking straight outta Brettonia, Dark Angels models were still just regular marines in habits. Then the next version they were that but also liked plasma. I think it was the later iterations of DA kits and the expanded lore from the Horus Heresy novels that made DA so knighty.
Obviously I wasn't there, but I'm sourcing from the french lore site Taran, which pretty much translated all 1 and 2 edition lore up to early 3rd for some articles, and then looking up publishment dates on the lexicanum.
According to it, i think the dark angels came in 2nd edition with codex angels of death, published 1996, whereas BT came to actually be defined in WD77 of september 2000. At the beginning, the dark angels in fact even were wearing black armour as those of the BT.
However, in these translated articles that they summarised into one big one, it stands out that the history of the Dark Angels, while being the same at heart, lacked many detail regarding what occured at the time of the horus heresy.
Note that the lion is said to be sleeping at the heart of Caliban, unknown to anyone safe the emperor himself. Dunno where he came from in his current iteration.
DA lore in that case might actually have expanded in the details we know today as of 2006 with the start of the HH book series by BL.
The BT started to be fleshed out as of 2000 with codex armaggedon and onward with their own codex from 2006.
Link to taran for french speaking fellows amongst you, or if you feel like checking with google/yandex translate or whatever:
Black Templars ultimately remain on a self-imposed Penitent Crusade, thanks to their founder Sigismund being a bit of a nutter.
Dark Angels are more Monastic Knights, pre-Crusade with their well kept secrets, great big flying Space Monestary and holding on to relics and knowledge of the past.
Both are romanticised and fantastical takes on different historical periods.
Yeah honestly Dark Angels strike me as the space marine special boys chapter that has the least reason to exist thematically rather than BT. The main reason BT exist practically today is that GW still wants to get the dollarbucks from the people who obsessively leave through space marine bolter porn novels leaving sweat and drool on every page trying to find instances of space marines stomping on, shooting or strangling unarmed noncombatants so they can post them in big compilations on social media with titles like "BbbbbbBASED ALERTTTTT!!!!!!!!1!!!"
The thematic reason they exist is, yeah, overzealous ignorant technobarbarian crusaders.
The reason I say they have reason to exist over DA is that theyve got that one theme - and DA are like "no we have all the themes!"
"Were the guys that have the lost advanced technology that we've managed to preserve, and we're also the marines that are like knights/monks, and we're also the Super Indomitable Fearless Ones, oh oh but also we're the super fast bike chapter! And also we have a whole army that's terminators so you can do all-terminators! And we're so, so secretive and sneaky you guys you wouldnt believe how sneaky. And also our thing is plasma, we've got all the plasma guns!"
They literally just have so many themes and so many shticks that step directly on the toes of like every other space marine chapter at once, its always been funny that people pick Ultramarines and Space Wolves to ragepost about when, in my eyes, everyone who actually is a space marine fan should be annoyed at Dark Angels. At least UM and SW primarily stick to their lanes, and it's not like theres some OTHER roman legion themed loyalist subfaction or some other viking or wolf themed space marines.
It's to have something to sell to those Germans that are still salty because of Tannenberg and that think germans actually civilized the savage Slavs in the east. (Yes, sadly enough these people exist...)
More serious answer: They're probably the most obvious "Knights in Space" Marine chapter, so that's something I guess. Dark Angels look more like monks. Background wize DA seem more like Arturian Knights, so early middle ages, while teutonic order is high to late middle ages.
The thematic reason they exist is, yeah, overzealous ignorant technobarbarian crusaders.
The premise in the OP is this is the theme of the entire Imperium. Every cadian or space marine starter box and battleforce could include a screaming missionary with a chainsaw flamethrower, that’s the aesthetic of the whole imperium. The black templars function as a sink for those things. To mix metaphors, they sanitize the rest of the imperium. Treadheads, SPQR people, and Warhammer fans in genral find it helpful to have the caricature of the bbbbased alert black Templar fan, so they can pretend to be cleaner and less “chud”-dy
As far as I know, the broken rules from third edition, and most of the background about melee squads etc come from a semi-personal project by a studio member. They were essentially house rules
The thematic reason they exist is, yeah, overzealous ignorant technobarbarian crusaders.
The premise in the OP is this is the theme of the entire Imperium. Every cadian or space marine starter box and battleforce could include a screaming missionary with a chainsaw flamethrower, that’s the aesthetic of the whole imperium. The black templars function as a sink for those things. To mix metaphors, they sanitize the rest of the imperium. Treadheads, SPQR people, and Warhammer fans in genral find it helpful to have the caricature of the bbbbased alert black Templar fan, so they can pretend to be cleaner and less “chud”-dy
As far as I know, the broken rules from third edition, and most of the background about melee squads etc come from a semi-personal project by a studio member. They were essentially house rules
But the Templars go to extremes even the already hateful Imperium doesn't, especially in consideration of other Astartes chapters. They flaunt the rules that govern Astartes chapters, they worship the Emperor as a god - which is a rarity for Space Marine chapter cults, etc. Even Kharn himself notes that Sigismund is particularly screwed up in their duel on Terra.
It's like the difference between Red Scorpions and other SM.
Also, while we're on this note. What's bad about being into tanks? There are terms for people overly obsessed with certain historical militaries already; no need to paint with a broad brush.
The thematic reason they exist is, yeah, overzealous ignorant technobarbarian crusaders.
The premise in the OP is this is the theme of the entire Imperium. Every cadian or space marine starter box and battleforce could include a screaming missionary with a chainsaw flamethrower, that’s the aesthetic of the whole imperium. The black templars function as a sink for those things. To mix metaphors, they sanitize the rest of the imperium. Treadheads, SPQR people, and Warhammer fans in genral find it helpful to have the caricature of the bbbbased alert black Templar fan, so they can pretend to be cleaner and less “chud”-dy
Looks at Cadian, Custodes, Primaris, and Ad-Mech Starter Sets, seeing nothing except tacti-cool or faux-roman gak everywhere. Yeah, a screaming missionary with a chainsaw flamethrower isn't the aesthetic of the entire Imperium. They have some Eastern-European influences, Roman, Germanic, Greek, and are inpsired by nomadic cultures (such as the Huns). That's a massive over-generalization of an entire faction's theme, aesthetics, and looks. Also, what's wrong with people whom you disagree with liking the Black Templars and how're they chuds for liking them? Seems like you're the actual chud here in this instance, telling people how to enjoy their hobby.
Black Templars are a red flag faction because they are often associated with less desirable elements of the Warhammer fanbase such as homophobes, transphobes, racists and sexists.
The kind of person who will see a rainbow Space Marine, say "Heresy!" and post a really bad meme about burning heretics but also genuinely post hate speech at the same time and declare they're "Keeping politics out of the hobby".
It's a sad association but Templars suffer more than most from being a faction where utter morons don't see the obvious "You should not idolise these people" banner despite GW actually doing a relatively consistent job in portraying the Templars as raving lunatics.
Gert wrote: Black Templars are a red flag faction because they are often associated with less desirable elements of the Warhammer fanbase such as homophobes, transphobes, racists and sexists.
The kind of person who will see a rainbow Space Marine, say "Heresy!" and post a really bad meme about burning heretics but also genuinely post hate speech at the same time and declare they're "Keeping politics out of the hobby".
It's a sad association but Templars suffer more than most from being a faction where utter morons don't see the obvious "You should not idolise these people" banner despite GW actually doing a relatively consistent job in portraying the Templars as raving lunatics.
I don't really think this is a faction specific problem, but whatever. Yeah, there will be a few idiots who don't realize the Templars are basically a barely-sanitized version of Medieval Crusaders. Yes, there will be people who will say stupid stuff about a rather insignificant model in the grander scheme of things. However, I wouldn't let it impact my entire view of a faction. I heavily dislike religion, but I highly doubt Genestealer Cults players are all mormons or scientologists. These people are usually a small enough minority that they get shut down immediately, when trying to espouse their beliefs.
Also, GW hasn't done a very great job at portraying the "evil space fascists" as actually evil. Guilliman's quote contradicts that statement quite a bit when he's addressing the current state of the Imperium. Maybe, because said satire didn't sell as well as an actual setting one can dive into/take seriously at all/even be immersed in? GW pays lip service to the setting's dying satire all the time over the years with statements like, "everything is canon, nothing is canon". Just, so they don't actually have to address the fact there setting is no longer a satire; it's just a fictional sandbox with slight satirical elements left over from it's gradual development over time.
I guess what I'm trying to illustrate is not everyone finds the satire of Warhammer, engaging or really even well done for that matter. I find (most of) it obnoxious, highly surface-level, and very preachy as someone who's apolitical. Kyril Sinderman's speech was one of the few examples I enjoyed. Also, the Council of Nikaea was very interesting and gives a great insight into Imperial politics. However, I mainly enjoy this setting for one thing: the brutal, soul-grinding warfare of the far future.
I guess what I'm trying to illustrate is not everyone finds the satire of Warhammer, engaging or really even well done for that matter. I find (most of) it obnoxious, highly surface-level, and very preachy as someone who's apolitical. Kyril Sinderman's speech was one of the few examples I enjoyed. Also, the Council of Nikaea was very interesting and gives a great insight into Imperial politics. However, I mainly enjoy this setting for one thing: the brutal, soul-grinding warfare of the far future.
Indeed. If you want to appreciate the satire of 40k that is fine, but you shouldn't be gatekeeping the hobby against those who unironically like parts of it. If someone unironically likes the zealous Black Templar's faith and over the top nature then good for them finding what they like. They're not a bad person for doing that.
The black Templars, for me, has always been a microcosm of the larger story of WH40k- that being, someone started this thing with the best intentions in mind, buuuuuut...
In the HH books, we get a good look at Sigismund's mindset that even when everyone else is saying "Emps is not a god"- he still shelters Keeler and reads the Lectio Divinatus and BELIEVES. Apparently, he found like minded individuals during the 2nd founding when the fists got cut up, but it was kept on the low, as by the time of War of the Beast the BT's had still not openly worshipped the Emperor.. Until Magneric went all zealous and started calling the Emperor's name in battle. I haven't gotten 100% thru the audiobooks, but I do know both Koorland and Vulkan stated that the Imperial Cult was a big no-no. HOWEVER- when they find out that one's faith can actually turn aside warp-based powers, they're a bit more forgiving.
So, what started as a fraternity of like-minded battle brothers eventually turned into the zealous, hyprocracy-ridden purgefest known as the Black Templars, just as Emp's imperial Truth got transmuted into the Imperial Creed, for other's ends and not the original intent.. Still think it's BS that space marine chapter strength is limited.. unless you're on a Crusade... Which is all BT do!
Grey Templar wrote: Indeed. If you want to appreciate the satire of 40k that is fine, but you shouldn't be gatekeeping the hobby against those who unironically like parts of it. If someone unironically likes the zealous Black Templar's faith and over the top nature then good for them finding what they like. They're not a bad person for doing that.
I'm not up on the current modeling, but do Stormboyz still wear M35-inspired helmets and goose-step all over the place?
Gert wrote: Black Templars are a red flag faction because they are often associated with less desirable elements of the Warhammer fanbase such as homophobes, transphobes, racists and sexists.
The kind of person who will see a rainbow Space Marine, say "Heresy!" and post a really bad meme about burning heretics but also genuinely post hate speech at the same time and declare they're "Keeping politics out of the hobby".
It's a sad association but Templars suffer more than most from being a faction where utter morons don't see the obvious "You should not idolise these people" banner despite GW actually doing a relatively consistent job in portraying the Templars as raving lunatics.
That takes me back. When I first started 40k I wanted to make a black templar army. I loved the knight theme and the black and white scheme, but the store and some friends steered me away for the reasons you stated, and I am glad they did because a lot of the BT players in the area turned out to be very hateful, and in some cases proud neo-nazi's.
Grey Templar wrote: Indeed. If you want to appreciate the satire of 40k that is fine, but you shouldn't be gatekeeping the hobby against those who unironically like parts of it. If someone unironically likes the zealous Black Templar's faith and over the top nature then good for them finding what they like. They're not a bad person for doing that.
I'm not up on the current modeling, but do Stormboyz still wear M35-inspired helmets and goose-step all over the place?
Because that was funny.
They don't but hey, we can still convert, i imagine spellcrow or anvil industry or someone else must have some .
Stormboiz are, i my view, really one of those 2 layered units: silly space ork on rocket when I used to be younger, then grown up a bit I understood how they made fun of the teenage crisis and as such they're so much more funny to me.
I don't think BT are a bad theme, I just think they're lazy. You already have Sisters, the literal Church, The DA, the Word Bearers, and countless other psychopathic Westboro Baptist meme warriors. What purpose does THIS itieration serve in the lore. ALso, should point out that the CURRENT lore scope and direction is very far removed from the base of lore that created the original BT. Almost unrecognizable. We have countless examples of the Space Marines testifying to the known fact that the Emperor is not a god. If that is the case, how do we have BT? It really doesn't make sense to me.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't think BT are a bad theme, I just think they're lazy. You already have Sisters, the literal Church, The DA, the Word Bearers, and countless other psychopathic Westboro Baptist meme warriors. What purpose does THIS itieration serve in the lore. ALso, should point out that the CURRENT lore scope and direction is very far removed from the base of lore that created the original BT. Almost unrecognizable. We have countless examples of the Space Marines testifying to the known fact that the Emperor is not a god. If that is the case, how do we have BT? It really doesn't make sense to me.
Well, to me that's the purpose of their theme. the counterexample to those chapters.
GW tells you that Chapters can have different beliefs and practices, right? Then it would be odd if every single Chapter of loyal Space Marines happened to share the belief that the Emperor is not divine. Not one single Chapter believes otherwise?
I feel like the Black Templars are there for a specific niche. They are Imperial Cult devoted, but also Space Marines rather than Sisters of Battle. So it creates that space for a player who wants a 'faith adjacent' army that isn't SOB. Plus, it then takes some (maybe not enough) restrictions so that it isn't just "Space Marines+" by eliminating Librarians.
I personally think they are kind of neat, even though I don't play them. I feel like their inclusion has allowed GW to tell some pretty cool stories about faith with Space Marines, both negative (like the one in the Dawn of Fire series) and positive (like Helsreach with Grimaldus). I think their inclusion has broadened the scope of what a Chapter looks like in a good way--though I do wish there were a bit more divergent chapter organizations and less focused development on particular ones like the BT and SW (more options, less stuff in each option).
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I don't think BT are a bad theme, I just think they're lazy. You already have Sisters, the literal Church, The DA, the Word Bearers, and countless other psychopathic Westboro Baptist meme warriors. What purpose does THIS itieration serve in the lore. ALso, should point out that the CURRENT lore scope and direction is very far removed from the base of lore that created the original BT. Almost unrecognizable. We have countless examples of the Space Marines testifying to the known fact that the Emperor is not a god. If that is the case, how do we have BT? It really doesn't make sense to me.
They are a crusade-based chapter of swordsman that view the Emperor as a God. Emphasis on the CRUSADE part, Dark Angels and Word Bearers are much, much different. Dark Angels are like King Arthur and the Roundtable in space, while the
Word Bearers are like a demonic church in space. Black Templars are upon a eternal crusade in the God-Emperor's name. There the Imperial Fists with the legion culture of the World Eaters. Dark Angels are currently killing off all of their traitors and have no real concern outside of doing that. Word Bearers just go around burning books, desecrating religious monuments, and slaughtering non-believers in the name of the Ruinous Powers. They're space crusaders, quite literally in every sense of the word.
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Boosykes wrote: Dark angels are better, you are correct black templars should be killed off so they stop honing in on dark angels armor themes.
Bro, Dork Angels are irrelevant. Your one trait that made you unique is also shared by the Iron Hands and White Scars (Sagyar Mazan and the remaining Iron Hands that betrayed Meduson). Also, I'm fairly sure a few Salamanders and Raven Guard
turned traitor at the Dropsite, considering one literally did just that. Alastor Rushal, the Raven is a member who joined the Night Lords sometime after the massacre. Dark Angels also suffer from being written by Gav Thorpe, one of the most middle of the road authors in the setting. So, I don't really think you can say they're better in this case. Especially, when they clearly aren't.
Black Templars on the other hand are crusaders not Arthurian-knights. Big difference in themes and I don't think we should squat an entire chapter just because one of the Lion's cubs feel inadequate. Besides, Black Templar characters are just much
more grounded and well written than the Unforgiven are.
There is no short answer to this question, but the simplest answer is that for 99% of the time (and for 80%+ of the Chapter’s members) the Dark Angels are as much an Emperor-serving, xenos-slaying, mutant-loathing, witch-burning Chapter as the next one (or the Ultramarines). If you want an example of this, amongst many fine stories, you might like to try The Purging of Kadillus. However, for 1% of the time (and for 20% of their members) they have their own agenda: the hunt for the Fallen.
Wyldhunt wrote: Personally, my biggest gripe with Black Templars is that they seem to be sharing an aesthetic niche with Dark Angels.
Dark Angels have gone through a couple of different themes to end up as knights - the old kits and images had them styled as monks and before that native americans.
Also keep in mind that the 1st Legion were…well…..1st Legion.
Before the destruction of Caliban, they were exemplary Astartes. Entrusted with weapons no other Legion was entrusted with. And even gifted more of the super dangerous stuff than their brother legions.
They…..waged war. That was their task, that’s what they did. And did so with aplomb. Not exactly glory seeking (ref Russ being peeved) just….efficient. But not the life and materiel risks others took. Pretty much noted for Just Enough Plus One to get the job done, and done as quickly as possible. I suppose one could call it a Balanced Efficiency.
They did what their orders said, and that was enough. If they took ridiculous risks, it’s because the calculus of war required it. Which would inevitably lead to grand moments. But the grand moments were never the aim.
Post-Heresy you’ve a Legion/Chapters robbed of the surety of their purpose. Arguably harder hit by the internal betrayal most, if not all, other Legions/Chapters experienced.
Re the BTs it’s worth baring in mind that they’d be far and away outnumbered by the forces of the ecchlisarchy. SoB probably number in the millions or more. While the BTs are large for a marine Chapter they don’t come close to that.
As Rex said - Deathwing. Page 35.
Specifically 'Cloud Runner' and the story of how the 1st company came to be the white painted 'Deathwing' (as opposed to black painted as this predates green Dark Angels).
The plains world is stated as the Dark Angels traditional and only recruiting world at the time. The characters have home-world names and also 'marine' names - Cloud Runner / Ezekiel, Broken Knife / Gabriel, Weasel-Fierce / Marius, and the Shaman Bloody Moon / Librarian Paulo.
Later on they were re-themed as paranoid monks but if you look at their 4e upgrade sprue they still had the tribal feathers. It was 6th edition IIRC that turned them into the not-templars (about the same time as the actual templars were turned into black-painted ultramarines from a codex perspective anyway). With the new primaris stuff the tribal iconography is entirely replaced.
Black Templars are not a part of the Ecclesairchy, unlike the Sisters. So treating them as equal is wrong from the very start.
The "point" of Black Templars is being the exemplary crusading Space Marines. Everything in their lore and models supports this one theme. The other point is of course selling another variety of Space Marine models.
As Rex said - Deathwing. Page 35.
Specifically 'Cloud Runner' and the story of how the 1st company came to be the white painted 'Deathwing' (as opposed to black painted as this predates green Dark Angels).
The plains world is stated as the Dark Angels traditional and only recruiting world at the time. The characters have home-world names and also 'marine' names - Cloud Runner / Ezekiel, Broken Knife / Gabriel, Weasel-Fierce / Marius, and the Shaman Bloody Moon / Librarian Paulo.
Later on they were re-themed as paranoid monks but if you look at their 4e upgrade sprue they still had the tribal feathers. It was 6th edition IIRC that turned them into the not-templars (about the same time as the actual templars were turned into black-painted ultramarines from a codex perspective anyway). With the new primaris stuff the tribal iconography is entirely replaced.
Thanks for the explanation, from now on my head canon will be native American themed dark angels as this looks way cooler to me
It's a sad association but Templars suffer more than most from being a faction where utter morons don't see the obvious "You should not idolise these people" banner despite GW actually doing a relatively consistent job in portraying the Templars as raving lunatics.
I would question GW's consistency there. They talk out of both sides of their mouth a lot on that one.
I guess what I'm trying to illustrate is not everyone finds the satire of Warhammer, engaging or really even well done for that matter. I find (most of) it obnoxious, highly surface-level, and very preachy as someone who's apolitical. Kyril Sinderman's speech was one of the few examples I enjoyed. Also, the Council of Nikaea was very interesting and gives a great insight into Imperial politics. However, I mainly enjoy this setting for one thing: the brutal, soul-grinding warfare of the far future.
Indeed. If you want to appreciate the satire of 40k that is fine, but you shouldn't be gatekeeping the hobby against those who unironically like parts of it. If someone unironically likes the zealous Black Templar's faith and over the top nature then good for them finding what they like. They're not a bad person for doing that.
Nah, if they find the idea of killing anyone who looks different unironically enticing then they *should* be called out. The Black Templars are pro-genocide.
I'm not up on the current modeling, but do Stormboyz still wear M35-inspired helmets and goose-step all over the place?
Because that was funny.
I haven't met an ork player without a well-developed sense of irony. It's worth noting that the orks are intended to be evocative of a trend in British youth culture of aping World War-era German mannerisms and aesthetic, so it's like doubly removed from Nazism (or WWI-era Germany).
Hecaton wrote: I would question GW's consistency there. They talk out of both sides of their mouth a lot on that one.
In the general tone of "Space Marines are heroes", sure that's true. But in fiction with Templar main characters or even often just as side characters/interactions, it's pretty blatant that they're not right in the head.
The wider issue is that the people who idolise the Templars are generally too squish brained to see it.
Nah, if they find the idea of killing anyone who looks different unironically enticing then they *should* be called out. The Black Templars are pro-genocide.
Alright, but what is the BT player pool and what surveys are there to affirm that BT bring in horrible people into the game?
I mean, I've stumbled across two black templar players in my regiment, in my squadron even, both are fairly normal people, one even quite smarter than I am and none is a screaming genocidal lunatic.
Sounds like overstretching or extrapolating to me. And pouring a lot more politics in here than necessary.
I guess what I'm trying to illustrate is not everyone finds the satire of Warhammer, engaging or really even well done for that matter. I find (most of) it obnoxious, highly surface-level, and very preachy as someone who's apolitical. Kyril Sinderman's speech was one of the few examples I enjoyed. Also, the Council of Nikaea was very interesting and gives a great insight into Imperial politics. However, I mainly enjoy this setting for one thing: the brutal, soul-grinding warfare of the far future.
Indeed. If you want to appreciate the satire of 40k that is fine, but you shouldn't be gatekeeping the hobby against those who unironically like parts of it. If someone unironically likes the zealous Black Templar's faith and over the top nature then good for them finding what they like. They're not a bad person for doing that.
Nah, if they find the idea of killing anyone who looks different unironically enticing then they *should* be called out. The Black Templars are pro-genocide.
News flash: most the setting is, especially in the Imperium.
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Alright, but what is the BT player pool and what surveys are there to affirm that BT bring in horrible people into the game?
I mean, I've stumbled across two black templar players in my regiment, in my squadron even, both are fairly normal people, one even quite smarter than I am and none is a screaming genocidal lunatic.
Sounds like overstretching or extrapolating to me. And pouring a lot more politics in here than necessary.
Side subject though.
It's not that all or even most BT players are terrible people. It's just, as mentioned on the first page, a "red flag."
"Of all the chapters of marines out there, I chose the one that's known for being extra intolerant and extra proactive about genocide!"
"Because you like highlighting how fethed up and non-aspirational the imperium is and how the Templars open-intolerance makes it impossible to pretend they're good guys, right? "
"..."
"... Right?"
It has the same energy as those guys who are just really into playing specifically Germany in WW2 games. It's probably fine. Probably.
Other chapters are arguably more sinister in a real-world sense because while every marine is a brainwashed dog of the fascist imperium, some chapters get portrayed in a more positive light that sort of kind of makes it easy to forget that they're still bad guys. Like, I love the Salamanders, but they've still participated in their share of imperium-mandated genocides. So stories where they spend the whole time being shown as basically good guys is kind of like talking up what a nice guy your friend the xenophobe is when you get to know him.
"Sure, he's staunchly loyal to the evil empire, but sometimes he doesn't kill civillians though! (As long as he isn't ordered to anyway.)
It's not that all or even most BT players are terrible people. It's just, as mentioned on the first page, a "red flag."
"Of all the chapters of marines out there, I chose the one that's known for being extra intolerant and extra proactive about genocide!"
"Because you like highlighting how fethed up and non-aspirational the imperium is and how the Templars open-intolerance makes it impossible to pretend they're good guys, right? "
"..."
"... Right?"
It has the same energy as those guys who are just really into playing specifically Germany in WW2 games. It's probably fine. Probably.
Other chapters are arguably more sinister in a real-world sense because while every marine is a brainwashed dog of the fascist imperium, some chapters get portrayed in a more positive light that sort of kind of makes it easy to forget that they're still bad guys. Like, I love the Salamanders, but they've still participated in their share of imperium-mandated genocides. So stories where they spend the whole time being shown as basically good guys is kind of like talking up what a nice guy your friend the xenophobe is when you get to know him.
"Sure, he's staunchly loyal to the evil empire, but sometimes he doesn't kill civillians though! (As long as he isn't ordered to anyway.)
I think it's healthy to assume that their appreciation for the BTs is ironic on some level unless you know for sure otherwise. I picked Smoke Jaguars in Battletech because I liked their color scheme; the fact that they have a penchant for committing war crimes is something I found out about later but I was like "yeah, sure, I'll play a villain faction."
It's not that all or even most BT players are terrible people. It's just, as mentioned on the first page, a "red flag."
"Of all the chapters of marines out there, I chose the one that's known for being extra intolerant and extra proactive about genocide!"
"Because you like highlighting how fethed up and non-aspirational the imperium is and how the Templars open-intolerance makes it impossible to pretend they're good guys, right? "
"..."
"... Right?"
It has the same energy as those guys who are just really into playing specifically Germany in WW2 games. It's probably fine. Probably.
Other chapters are arguably more sinister in a real-world sense because while every marine is a brainwashed dog of the fascist imperium, some chapters get portrayed in a more positive light that sort of kind of makes it easy to forget that they're still bad guys. Like, I love the Salamanders, but they've still participated in their share of imperium-mandated genocides. So stories where they spend the whole time being shown as basically good guys is kind of like talking up what a nice guy your friend the xenophobe is when you get to know him.
"Sure, he's staunchly loyal to the evil empire, but sometimes he doesn't kill civillians though! (As long as he isn't ordered to anyway.)
I think it's healthy to assume that their appreciation for the BTs is ironic on some level unless you know for sure otherwise. I picked Smoke Jaguars in Battletech because I liked their color scheme; the fact that they have a penchant for committing war crimes is something I found out about later but I was like "yeah, sure, I'll play a villain faction."
Oh, absolutely. It's just also nice when they crack a joke at the BTs' expense at some point to confirm that it is ironic. It's like wearing a fedora. Wearing a fedora doesn't mean you're a bad person, but wearing a fedora is (or at least was) kind of associated with a certain brand of jerk. So you're kind of on alert for them to either address the fedora thing or else confirm the stereotype.
Wyldhunt wrote: It's not that all or even most BT players are terrible people. It's just, as mentioned on the first page, a "red flag."
It is unreasonable to assign any kind of flag or suggestion of -phobe or -ism to someone based on their plastic army men.
Now if they turn up with totemkopf krieg or white-painted redemptionists with burning crosses then by all means.
Incidentally don't you play the sadist torture elves faction? As far as red flags go... :p
Wyldhunt wrote: It's not that all or even most BT players are terrible people. It's just, as mentioned on the first page, a "red flag."
It is unreasonable to assign any kind of flag or suggestion of -phobe or -ism to someone based on their plastic army men.
Now if they turn up with totemkopf krieg or white-painted redemptionists with burning crosses then by all means.
Incidentally don't you play the sadist torture elves faction? As far as red flags go... :p
In my experience that just means they were raised Catholic.
If I see someone wearing a "Straight Pride" t-shirt, I'm going to assume they're an ass, but if they're genuinely ignorant about any wider implications and just got it because "I'm a straight person, and I'm proud of who I am!" then that's showing they're not who I thought they were.
Being a BT fan is not the same level as that example, though. I wasn't even really aware of that association-the BT players I know are fine folk, far as I know.
A.T. wrote: It is unreasonable to assign any kind of flag or suggestion of -phobe or -ism to someone based on their plastic army men.
Now if they turn up with totemkopf krieg or white-painted redemptionists with burning crosses then by all means.
You've missed the point entirely, somehow. Nobody is saying all Templar players are fascists or racists. What has been said is that in the wider community, those who do support those ideologies and "values" often associate themselves with the Templars and other factions like the Death Korps.
It doesn't help when channels like FlashGitz make a whole series of videos about Templars killing Furries (a community widely known to be a safe haven for LGBTQ+ folks) because they're "degenerates" and "mutants". They're just doing edgelord humour but there are people out there that take that idea and make it their ideology.
Hence for those of us who are part of a minority group or are vocal allies, we tend to get cautious when people have Templar profile pictures/avatars or get a bit too into the RP-ing. And while It usually takes all of two seconds to figure out if the person is normal or not but the fact remains it's something that has to happen because there is a solid chance that individual is about to start hate criming.
Wyldhunt wrote: It's not that all or even most BT players are terrible people. It's just, as mentioned on the first page, a "red flag."
It is unreasonable to assign any kind of flag or suggestion of -phobe or -ism to someone based on their plastic army men.
It's unreasonable to assume someone is <insert negative trait here> based on their army, and I'm not advocating that people do so.
That said, if you wear a fedora, talk about how your favorite movie is Fight Club, or are really, really into WW2 factoids, these are all things that ping in the brain and make you go, "Hmm."
None of those things make someone a bad person, but they're... signs that a person may be more likely to hold certain unsavory views. Reasonable people can disagree, but I feel like playing BT is sort of vaguely in the same vein. It's a small red flag, but still a red flag (to me).
Again, liking BT is perfectly fine. But if you told me someone had come out as a piece of hateful garbage and asked me to guess which faction they played, BT would probably be one of my first guesses.
Incidentally don't you play the sadist torture elves faction? As far as red flags go... :p
Shoot. You're onto me. I feel like there's a general sentiment that the hobby does have an unfortunate habit of appealing to fascists and xenophobes and that xenophobic facists are more (openly) prevalent than in the past. The implication would be that drukhari appeal to like... sadistic serial killers I guess? And I don't think the hobby is known for having a problem with serial killers the same way it has a problem with fascists.
But that said, I feel like the conversation might be getting blown a little out of proportion. Again, no one is going to assume you're a bad person just because you play BT.
EDIT: JNA and Gert both made my points better, faster, and more succinctly. Thanks, folks.
It's unreasonable to assume someone is <insert negative trait here> based on their army, and I'm not advocating that people do so.
That said, if you wear a fedora, talk about how your favorite movie is Fight Club, or are really, really into WW2 factoids, these are all things that ping in the brain and make you go, "Hmm."
None of those things make someone a bad person, but they're... signs that a person may be more likely to hold certain unsavory views. Reasonable people can disagree, but I feel like playing BT is sort of vaguely in the same vein. It's a small red flag, but still a red flag (to me).
Again, liking BT is perfectly fine. But if you told me someone had come out as a piece of hateful garbage and asked me to guess which faction they played, BT would probably be one of my first guesses.
I am... very left wing, but there's plenty of WW2 history buffs who are great people, people who like Fight Club, and people who wear fedoras. I grew up in a rural area and wearing fedoras was common for people who worked with horses.
I wouldn't even consider any of that red flags, that's honestly fairly judgmental. It's the lack of irony, thinking the Imperium is unironically in the right for being a totalitarian hellhole, etc.
Gert wrote: You've missed the point entirely, somehow. Nobody is saying...
I'm pretty sure someone speedrunning a permanent forum ban could just replace X in your post with something a little spicier than 'templars'
Not Gert wrote:X are a red flag group because they are often associated with less desirable elements of humanity such as homophobes, transphobes, racists and sexists.
And I do get your point, i'm just not part of the flashgitz crowd as so your post came in completely out of left field for me.
Hecaton wrote:
I am... very left wing, but there's plenty of WW2 history buffs who are great people, people who like Fight Club, and people who wear fedoras.
Sure. And plenty of people like playing BT who are great people. I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. The point is that all the examples above are tropes that are associated with various types of donkey-caves.
Regardless of whether or not they're popular among ranchers, fedoras associated with misogynistic neckbeards: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Fedora%20Guy. Being "too into WW2" (especially if their interests skew heavily German) can sometimes be a hint that someone has a bit of an obsession with WW2 Germany. Fight Club (while a good movie) tends to be very popular with the alt-right crowd when they miss they miss the irony and go, "This guy is talking a lot of sense!"
My point is that all of these things can absolutely be enjoyed by perfectly wonderful people, but unfortunately they are also known to be things that happen to be particularly popular among not-so-lovely people for various reasons. JNA phrased it better than I am:
A warning sign is not the same as a fact.
If I see someone wearing a "Straight Pride" t-shirt, I'm going to assume they're an ass, but if they're genuinely ignorant about any wider implications and just got it because "I'm a straight person, and I'm proud of who I am!" then that's showing they're not who I thought they were.
Being a BT fan is not the same level as that example, though.
A.T. wrote:
Gert wrote: You've missed the point entirely, somehow. Nobody is saying...
I'm pretty sure someone speedrunning a permanent forum ban could just replace X in your post with something a little spicier than 'templars'
Not Gert wrote:X are a red flag group because they are often associated with less desirable elements of humanity such as homophobes, transphobes, racists and sexists.
And I do get your point, i'm just not part of the flashgitz crowd as so your post came in completely out of left field for me.
I thought Gert put things pretty well. Picking apart their last post a bit:
You've missed the point entirely, somehow. Nobody is saying all Templar players are fascists or racists. What has been said is that in the wider community, those who do support those ideologies and "values" often associate themselves with the Templars and other factions like the Death Korps.
This. Playing BT doesn't mean you're a fascist/racist. But if someone who plays 40kis a fascist/racist, I'd be unsurprised if Templars or Krieg were their armies of choice.
It doesn't help when channels like FlashGitz make a whole series of videos about Templars killing Furries (a community widely known to be a safe haven for LGBTQ+ folks) because they're "degenerates" and "mutants". They're just doing edgelord humour but there are people out there that take that idea and make it their ideology.
I know the exact videos Gert is referring to. It's edgy humor, and to my knowledge the creators of those videos are not fascist/racist. But the comments section anywhere I've seen the video posted tends to be big on furry bashing. Which, as Gert points out, the punchline of the videos is that the fascists are are inflicting violence on the minority group with ties to the LGBTQ crowd. So you can see where the vibes can be a bit sour.
Hence for those of us who are part of a minority group or are vocal allies, we tend to get cautious when people have Templar profile pictures/avatars or get a bit too into the RP-ing. And while It usually takes all of two seconds to figure out if the person is normal or not but the fact remains it's something that has to happen because there is a solid chance that individual is about to start hate criming.
Bolded for emphasis. 99% of the time the guy playing BT is a perfectly cool person. But if the first and only impression I have of you is your BT avatar or similar, I'm going to have that piece of data in the back of my head. I'm not going to assume you're a nazi until proven otherwise or anything like that, but I'm going to be aware around you.
So with all the above in mind, I think Gert is making their case very reasonably, and everything they stated is pretty specific to BT (and Krieg). To my knowledge, BA and GK don't feature in fan videos where they rip up furries with chainsaws.
That whole story of BT player being read flag is then in essence boiling down that they tend not to agree with your LGBT political views so most of they are likely to be bad person? What the heck?
Why don't you then just play and if you want a debate invite him after the game to have a drink and a chat about it simply? This fuss is getting more and more irrelevant can we get this topic back on track and into the lore?
I guess what I'm trying to illustrate is not everyone finds the satire of Warhammer, engaging or really even well done for that matter. I find (most of) it obnoxious, highly surface-level, and very preachy as someone who's apolitical. Kyril Sinderman's speech was one of the few examples I enjoyed. Also, the Council of Nikaea was very interesting and gives a great insight into Imperial politics. However, I mainly enjoy this setting for one thing: the brutal, soul-grinding warfare of the far future.
Indeed. If you want to appreciate the satire of 40k that is fine, but you shouldn't be gatekeeping the hobby against those who unironically like parts of it. If someone unironically likes the zealous Black Templar's faith and over the top nature then good for them finding what they like. They're not a bad person for doing that.
Nah, if they find the idea of killing anyone who looks different unironically enticing then they *should* be called out. The Black Templars are pro-genocide.
Literally every faction in 40k is on a genocidal mission. And considering the goals and motivations of every other faction, it is 100% justified within the setting. Every species, or group within any particularl species, which wasn't made up of genocidal maniacs is extinct...
40k is basically the Dark Forest hypothesis being allowed to play out.
Literally every faction in 40k is on a genocidal mission. And considering the goals and motivations of every other faction, it is 100% justified within the setting. Every species, or group within any particularl species, which wasn't made up of genocidal maniacs is extinct...
40k is basically the Dark Forest hypothesis being allowed to play out.
Nope. Tau, Leagues of Votann, and a good chunk of the Eldar aren't. There were humans who weren't but the Imperium found that philosophy abhorrent so they destroyed them.
Tau? You find better being rule by a single party of priviledged individuals in a rigid cast system were free will is chastised, and where information is hidden (see Aun'vas holograph and Farsight enclaves totally not being a thing) and lied about? The Tau are dicks. They don't go about it the same manner, they are more subtle characters. hence why their stories involve more diplomacy. And is expansion according to their manifest destiny a good thing? Nah, saying Tau are better is not true.
Eldar happily sacrifice a billion other people as chaff. Best example is Eldars sacrificing armaggedon by trhowing the orks at it to preserve their kin. Or how the help in the organising of the exterminatus in DoW2 (which events are canon)? How is that less abhorrent than what the imperium does? How is their goal not te reestablish dominance because they feel only they are masters and they want to subjugate all other "inferior" races?
Don't know how they rebooted the squats with votanns but old squats with their honour bound grudges brought to massacres for the slightest percieved insult. How is that better belief than the Imperium's?
Every 40k faction is in essence abhorrent, each with its means of expressing it. The imperium is not the villain. It is one of the villains. Black templar are an aspect of that character, an blatant one.
Black templars are a simple theme, maybe not the most original, but they fit the larger lore of their character well.
If anything, if you hope for a good faction in 40k just get yourself another setting.
Literally every faction in 40k is on a genocidal mission. And considering the goals and motivations of every other faction, it is 100% justified within the setting. Every species, or group within any particularl species, which wasn't made up of genocidal maniacs is extinct...
This is where the worst change has occurred in 40k lore. It didn't used to be justified. The Imperium used to be shown as a genocidal, superstitious, fanatic gakshow that got in its own way far more than it helped itself, and was staying afloat through sheer inertia from its own size. It was a warning that even in such dire straits, this kind of hyper-religious, authoritarian, xenophobic state was counterproductive and unhelpful.
Now, the lore paints loads of that crap as strictly necessary- blind faith now provides tangible benefits against daemons, for example. Space Marines have always had a problem with being painted as the good faction, but that has accelerated over the last decade and now the indoctrinated murder-soldiers forced into service as pre-pubescent children are heavily sanitised at any surface level glance into 40k lore. All of this is being fed to 12 year olds and I do think it is an issue that the lore increasingly glorifies the Imperium in pursuit of profits.
Black Templars are the exemplars of the Imperium's worst aspects. They fit perfectly within the lore as the Space Marines even other Marines find a bit much, they embody the cult of sacrific pervading the Imperium, and their bending of the Codex Astartes being allowed through their faith is a good example of Imperial hypocrisy. I think they are a great part of the lore overall.
I do recognise what Gert and Wyldhunt are saying though- Black Templars can be a very subtle dog whistle because their themes unironically map onto the themes of some very unsavoury real ideologies. I wouldn't personally go as far as to say they are a "red flag" because I doubt the hit rate is that high, but I do agree it is something in the back of the mind. This is typically different to factions like Chaos or Dark Eldar, because those factions, whilst obviously evil, have different themes that don't highlight self-sacrifice and genocidal purity in the way the Imperium in general and Black Templars in particular do. They don't map onto certain real-world ideologies in the same way. The issue isn't playing a "villain" faction, it is how that "villain" faction intersects with the real world. Again though, this is not a reason not to play Black Templars in my book, just something to be aware of. I have actually been intending to start a small Black Templars force for my Armageddon armies.
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Tau? You find better being rule by a single party of priviledged individuals in a rigid cast system were free will is chastised, and where information is hidden (see Aun'vas holograph and Farsight enclaves totally not being a thing) and lied about? The Tau are dicks. They don't go about it the same manner, they are more subtle characters. hence why their stories involve more diplomacy. And is expansion according to their manifest destiny a good thing? Nah, saying Tau are better is not true.
Eldar happily sacrifice a billion other people as chaff. Best example is Eldars sacrificing armaggedon by trhowing the orks at it to preserve their kin. Or how the help in the organising of the exterminatus in DoW2 (which events are canon)? How is that less abhorrent than what the imperium does? How is their goal not te reestablish dominance because they feel only they are masters and they want to subjugate all other "inferior" races?
Don't know how they rebooted the squats with votanns but old squats with their honour bound grudges brought to massacres for the slightest percieved insult. How is that better belief than the Imperium's?
Every 40k faction is in essence abhorrent, each with its means of expressing it. The imperium is not the villain. It is one of the villains. Black templar are an aspect of that character, an blatant one.
Black templars are a simple theme, maybe not the most original, but they fit the larger lore of their character well.
If anything, if you hope for a good faction in 40k just get yourself another setting.
Grey templar is right.
I think you are missing the point.
Hecaton is correct with none of Eldar, the Leagues or Tau being on a genocidal mission. If you want to stay on an Eldar Maiden World? If you live on a plaent the Leagues want to mine out for profit? If you are adamant about not joining the Tau for the Greater Good? Sure, you and your civilisation will be removed from existence.
That is not what a genocidal mission is all about though. None of them go out of their way to exterminate other species - the Imperium very much does so. Black Templars in particular: one of their trademark quotes is exactly about this!
Note that none of this is saying that Eldar, Tau or the Leagues are in any way "better" than the Imperium. Just that their intentions are different.
Allow me to elaborate on what you say, Darnok, as I feel I don't miss the point, but maybe didn't express my point of view right.
Different, but just pretty much as bad in that regard. Abhumans and squats prove the imperium sometimes pulls enough brain matter to refrain from killing everyone. As do Tau or Eldar, as you said. Unlike Votann, that may be true.
Think about the BT as the extremists, this part that stopped reasoning and becomes a caricature of their faction at large.
The Imperiums mission is not necesseraly genocidal at heart. It is the very same as all other races safe orks who just want to have a good laughs and DE who don't care. Other predate to feed/expand and survive. It is pretty much the same the Eldar would do if they weren't portrayed as weakened or the Tau if they had the means to go toe to toe with the ressources of the imperium.
As a summary: I don't think the different empires in 40k setting are supposed to have dinstinct intentions. In fact they have the same. But in a setting where the Imperium is the dominant fish, it can apply all its stupidity to bully the tinier fishes. If you reversed the situation and put Eldar in command, the scenario could totally be written in quite the same fashion but with Eldard bullying their neighbours.
Then of course the way they achieve it or try to varies, but in the end, they're all pretty much the same as far as ethics go.
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Tau? You find better being rule by a single party of priviledged individuals in a rigid cast system were free will is chastised, and where information is hidden (see Aun'vas holograph and Farsight enclaves totally not being a thing) and lied about? The Tau are dicks. They don't go about it the same manner, they are more subtle characters. hence why their stories involve more diplomacy. And is expansion according to their manifest destiny a good thing? Nah, saying Tau are better is not true.
Eldar happily sacrifice a billion other people as chaff. Best example is Eldars sacrificing armaggedon by trhowing the orks at it to preserve their kin. Or how the help in the organising of the exterminatus in DoW2 (which events are canon)? How is that less abhorrent than what the imperium does? How is their goal not te reestablish dominance because they feel only they are masters and they want to subjugate all other "inferior" races?
Don't know how they rebooted the squats with votanns but old squats with their honour bound grudges brought to massacres for the slightest percieved insult. How is that better belief than the Imperium's?
Every 40k faction is in essence abhorrent, each with its means of expressing it. The imperium is not the villain. It is one of the villains. Black templar are an aspect of that character, an blatant one.
Black templars are a simple theme, maybe not the most original, but they fit the larger lore of their character well.
If anything, if you hope for a good faction in 40k just get yourself another setting.
Grey templar is right.
I think you are missing the point.
Hecaton is correct with none of Eldar, the Leagues or Tau being on a genocidal mission. If you want to stay on an Eldar Maiden World? If you live on a plaent the Leagues want to mine out for profit? If you are adamant about not joining the Tau for the Greater Good? Sure, you and your civilisation will be removed from existence.
That is not what a genocidal mission is all about though. None of them go out of their way to exterminate other species - the Imperium very much does so. Black Templars in particular: one of their trademark quotes is exactly about this!
Note that none of this is saying that Eldar, Tau or the Leagues are in any way "better" than the Imperium. Just that their intentions are different.
He's correct that their intentions aren't genocidal, however, their actions most definitely are. After all, the road to hell is paved with "good intentions".
It's just that he's failed to mention anything negative about any other faction other than the Imperium of Man from what I've seen. It's simply an argument made in bad faith.
The Imperiums mission is not necesseraly genocidal at heart. It is the very same as all other races safe orks who just want to have a good laughs and DE who don't care. Other predate to feed/expand and survive. It is pretty much the same the Eldar would do if they weren't portrayed as weakened or the Tau if they had the means to go toe to toe with the ressources of the imperium.
As a summary: I don't think the different empires in 40k setting are supposed to have dinstinct intentions. In fact they have the same. But in a setting where the Imperium is the dominant fish, it can apply all its stupidity to bully the tinier fishes. If you reversed the situation and put Eldar in command, the scenario could totally be written in quite the same fashion but with Eldard bullying their neighbours.
Then of course the way they achieve it or try to varies, but in the end, they're all pretty much the same as far as ethics go.
For this reason i still disagree on that detail.
The Imperium is explicitly genocidal to all sentient xenos and has a central goverment policy that all sentient xenos are to be made extinct. This hasn't changed since the Great Crusade. Some xenos get a temporary stay of execution, usually for pragmatic reasons like an alliance of convemience or insufficient Imperial resources to currently prosecute a war against them. Rogue Traders explicitly have the right to trade with aliens in order to scout out aliens and lull them into a false sense of security.
In contrast, whilst all other major players in the 40k galaxy engage in genocide, most of them do no have an explicitly mono-species agenda. The main exception is the Tyranids, who are omnicidal, and some Necron factions. Other Necron factions are happy to do.inate other species. Chaos will commit acts of great destruction and cruelty including genocide, but Chaos is not limited to humans and many human followers of Chaos work with Chaotic xenos. Orks live for war and have a might-makes-right philosophy, but genocide is pretty rare* and enslavement of defeated peoples is the usual outcome. Tau obviously incorporate multiple xenos races into their empire. Eldar are a bit more complicated and have been shown to be very happy to commit genocide on other species if it saves an Aeldari life, but equally the mainstream view for Cratworld Eldar is of dominance over other species rather than extermination. The pre-Fall Eldar clearly did not see the need for genocide of all other sentients or there would be basically no aliens at all in 40k, likely including humans. Dark Eldar require others to survive if they don't want to change their hedonistic ways, so are very unlikely to try to exterminate all other species.
So in short, I disagree that the main factions in 40k are all the same in their intentions. I think they are all horrible, evil entities but in typically very distinct ways. I think so many flavours of bad is part of the charm of the setting!
*Not unheard of though- the Black Slayers on Armageddon were noted for being especially ruthless in killing all they found.
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Tau? You find better being rule by a single party of priviledged individuals in a rigid cast system were free will is chastised, and where information is hidden (see Aun'vas holograph and Farsight enclaves totally not being a thing) and lied about? The Tau are dicks. They don't go about it the same manner, they are more subtle characters. hence why their stories involve more diplomacy. And is expansion according to their manifest destiny a good thing? Nah, saying Tau are better is not true.
No, it is. The Tau are authoritarian, the Imperium is turbo-fascists. The Tay practice gunboat diplomacy, the Imperium would rather just genocide other species. The Tau are at least competent enough to understand that oppressing and depriving your own population of basic necessities is wrong and inefficient; the Imperium will do it just for gaks and giggles.
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Eldar happily sacrifice a billion other people as chaff. Best example is Eldars sacrificing armaggedon by trhowing the orks at it to preserve their kin. Or how the help in the organising of the exterminatus in DoW2 (which events are canon)? How is that less abhorrent than what the imperium does? How is their goal not te reestablish dominance because they feel only they are masters and they want to subjugate all other "inferior" races?
Because it's not. Only certain groups (Frozen Stars etc) actually want that, the rest of them just want to survive, and if other races don't threaten them they'll leave them alone. Unlike the Imperium, which wants to see every alien baby strangled in its crib.
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Don't know how they rebooted the squats with votanns but old squats with their honour bound grudges brought to massacres for the slightest percieved insult. How is that better belief than the Imperium's?
Ah, so you just don't really know the lore and are going off of feel?
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Every 40k faction is in essence abhorrent, each with its means of expressing it. The imperium is not the villain. It is one of the villains. Black templar are an aspect of that character, an blatant one.
Black templars are a simple theme, maybe not the most original, but they fit the larger lore of their character well.
To a degree. But they're not *equally* abhorrent, and the Imperium is way worse than the Tau or CWE.
No, I just have to look at the xenos factions, some of whom aren't the degenerate baby-murderers that the Imperium is, and who are motivated to take the Imperium out behind the tool shed and put it down like the mad dog it is. Just because someone thinks the space Catholic turbofascists are the heroes of the story because they align yourself with that aesthetic and belief system doesn't make it true; there's a lot of wishful thinking going on in this thread and elsewhere where people are making things up to make the Imperium look better. I blame lore youtubers and secondaries; if you read the actual sourcebooks it's much clearer that you're wrong.
He's correct that their intentions aren't genocidal, however, their actions most definitely are. After all, the road to hell is paved with "good intentions".
It's just that he's failed to mention anything negative about any other faction other than the Imperium of Man from what I've seen. It's simply an argument made in bad faith.
You're mad I judge different factions differently, because they're... different? It's not unfair to call out the Imperium for being made up of a bunch of baby-murdering degenerates, when that's what they are. They *are* worse than a number of other factions; it seems like you're upset that fact's being acknowledged. I don't have to be even-handed when one party is explicitly worse than the others.
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: The Imperiums mission is not necesseraly genocidal at heart. It is the very same as all other races safe orks who just want to have a good laughs and DE who don't care. Other predate to feed/expand and survive. It is pretty much the same the Eldar would do if they weren't portrayed as weakened or the Tau if they had the means to go toe to toe with the ressources of the imperium.
No, they explicitly are. When the Imperium encountered Xenos species during the Great Crusade, which was pre-religious dogma and degeneration found in the modern Imperium, they were eradicated. The Diasporex was a mixed human/Xenos alliance that just wanted to be left alone but the manifest destiny of the Imperium saw the Xenos eradicated and the humans enslaved. The Interex were utterly destroyed by the Sons of Horus pre-corruption even when a diplomatic settlement could have been achieved. There were numerous Xenos species that didn't have to be wiped out but were because the Imperium was so fixated on human domination of the galaxy that it saw no other recourse. Even in the few rare instances where Xenos populations were subjugated rather than eradicated, it was either due to them being too irritating to deal with at that point (such as the Jokaero) or they had some use, such as the species the Imperium used to make a drug that eventually wiped them out.
The Imperiums mission is not necesseraly genocidal at heart. It is the very same as all other races safe orks who just want to have a good laughs and DE who don't care. Other predate to feed/expand and survive. It is pretty much the same the Eldar would do if they weren't portrayed as weakened or the Tau if they had the means to go toe to toe with the ressources of the imperium.
As a summary: I don't think the different empires in 40k setting are supposed to have dinstinct intentions. In fact they have the same. But in a setting where the Imperium is the dominant fish, it can apply all its stupidity to bully the tinier fishes. If you reversed the situation and put Eldar in command, the scenario could totally be written in quite the same fashion but with Eldard bullying their neighbours.
Then of course the way they achieve it or try to varies, but in the end, they're all pretty much the same as far as ethics go.
For this reason i still disagree on that detail.
The Imperium is explicitly genocidal to all sentient xenos and has a central goverment policy that all sentient xenos are to be made extinct. This hasn't changed since the Great Crusade. Some xenos get a temporary stay of execution, usually for pragmatic reasons like an alliance of convemience or insufficient Imperial resources to currently prosecute a war against them. Rogue Traders explicitly have the right to trade with aliens in order to scout out aliens and lull them into a false sense of security.
In contrast, whilst all other major players in the 40k galaxy engage in genocide, most of them do no have an explicitly mono-species agenda. The main exception is the Tyranids, who are omnicidal, and some Necron factions. Other Necron factions are happy to do.inate other species. Chaos will commit acts of great destruction and cruelty including genocide, but Chaos is not limited to humans and many human followers of Chaos work with Chaotic xenos. Orks live for war and have a might-makes-right philosophy, but genocide is pretty rare* and enslavement of defeated peoples is the usual outcome. Tau obviously incorporate multiple xenos races into their empire. Eldar are a bit more complicated and have been shown to be very happy to commit genocide on other species if it saves an Aeldari life, but equally the mainstream view for Cratworld Eldar is of dominance over other species rather than extermination. The pre-Fall Eldar clearly did not see the need for genocide of all other sentients or there would be basically no aliens at all in 40k, likely including humans. Dark Eldar require others to survive if they don't want to change their hedonistic ways, so are very unlikely to try to exterminate all other species.
So in short, I disagree that the main factions in 40k are all the same in their intentions. I think they are all horrible, evil entities but in typically very distinct ways. I think so many flavours of bad is part of the charm of the setting!
*Not unheard of though- the Black Slayers on Armageddon were noted for being especially ruthless in killing all they found.
I take your point on the fact most imperial diplomacy is based on pragmatic interests rather than benevolence, no putting that in question. But it does happen. The case where the imperium has conquered all the galaxy and enjoys peace has not been described so we can say that yes they'd kill of all reminders or no they wouldn't care and as of know, while we lean on yes they're so mad they'd kill them off we can't affirm. This is the problem with a fiction, we can discuss it but as long as an author hasn't written it we can't say 100%.
Also, how much do you think that in the sort of character development of the Imperium (and the emperor) could the Age of strife have weighted? I mean, pre great crusade the imperium was pretty much rampaged by xenos. We may assume this scarred the human psyche and so even the emperor ran on fear in a sense. Plus the fact that the project of the emperor couldn't possibly be achieved if any human faction remained that didn't believe in the imperial truth and kept feeding chaos?
Anyhow, my point would be: yes, the imperium is man and ran by idiots, the lore is clear about it. But going in details, what s the root of this madness? What is the character made of?
So that, when I say "their no genocidal in their mission at heart", I lean they didn't start it for giggles but instead represent a character built on their excessive fear to the point of stupidity, madness and violence.
Not that it changes much as facts are concerned. But the why is it so? Hope you get my point!
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Tau? You find better being rule by a single party of priviledged individuals in a rigid cast system were free will is chastised, and where information is hidden (see Aun'vas holograph and Farsight enclaves totally not being a thing) and lied about? The Tau are dicks. They don't go about it the same manner, they are more subtle characters. hence why their stories involve more diplomacy. And is expansion according to their manifest destiny a good thing? Nah, saying Tau are better is not true.
No, it is. The Tau are authoritarian, the Imperium is turbo-fascists. The Tay practice gunboat diplomacy, the Imperium would rather just genocide other species. The Tau are at least competent enough to understand that oppressing and depriving your own population of basic necessities is wrong and inefficient; the Imperium will do it just for gaks and giggles.
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Eldar happily sacrifice a billion other people as chaff. Best example is Eldars sacrificing armaggedon by trhowing the orks at it to preserve their kin. Or how the help in the organising of the exterminatus in DoW2 (which events are canon)? How is that less abhorrent than what the imperium does? How is their goal not te reestablish dominance because they feel only they are masters and they want to subjugate all other "inferior" races?
Because it's not. Only certain groups (Frozen Stars etc) actually want that, the rest of them just want to survive, and if other races don't threaten them they'll leave them alone. Unlike the Imperium, which wants to see every alien baby strangled in its crib.
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Don't know how they rebooted the squats with votanns but old squats with their honour bound grudges brought to massacres for the slightest percieved insult. How is that better belief than the Imperium's?
Ah, so you just don't really know the lore and are going off of feel?
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Every 40k faction is in essence abhorrent, each with its means of expressing it. The imperium is not the villain. It is one of the villains. Black templar are an aspect of that character, an blatant one.
Black templars are a simple theme, maybe not the most original, but they fit the larger lore of their character well.
To a degree. But they're not *equally* abhorrent, and the Imperium is way worse than the Tau or CWE.
No, I just have to look at the xenos factions, some of whom aren't the degenerate baby-murderers that the Imperium is, and who are motivated to take the Imperium out behind the tool shed and put it down like the mad dog it is. Just because someone thinks the space Catholic turbofascists are the heroes of the story because they align yourself with that aesthetic and belief system doesn't make it true; there's a lot of wishful thinking going on in this thread and elsewhere where people are making things up to make the Imperium look better. I blame lore youtubers and secondaries; if you read the actual sourcebooks it's much clearer that you're wrong.
He's correct that their intentions aren't genocidal, however, their actions most definitely are. After all, the road to hell is paved with "good intentions".
It's just that he's failed to mention anything negative about any other faction other than the Imperium of Man from what I've seen. It's simply an argument made in bad faith.
You're mad I judge different factions differently, because they're... different? It's not unfair to call out the Imperium for being made up of a bunch of baby-murdering degenerates, when that's what they are. They *are* worse than a number of other factions; it seems like you're upset that fact's being acknowledged. I don't have to be even-handed when one party is explicitly worse than the others.
I'm just shocked that you fail to see how every other faction is evil and you genuinely think the Imperium is nothing more than evil incarnate at the very same time. You do realize everbody's evil right? You've gone around in every thread screeching to everyone about how the Imperium is bad, why isn't their that same conviction for say Chaos or Orks? You seem to have a clear bias against the Imperium, no matter the case. You even interrogated me over my army choice like you are some sort of Inquisitor or something, lol? That's weird to be frothing at the mouth straight out of the gate for someone's army choice, but whatever comes with the territory I guess.
We get it, bro. Emperor and Imperium bad. Now, we ever gonna talk about what they do in the Dark City? Didn't think so.
Now, take a drink, Jesus or show us on the servo-skull where the Big E touched you, lol! It's not a unfair argument to make, but it sure as hell is lazy and takes no effort to do. These are like peak-2015 dakkadakka thread posts. Put a little bit more effort forwards than just a single-minded take all the time. After a while people stop caring or listening, because you're just trying to be annoying.
I guess just be honest when you admit you have a clear bias rather than be dishonest 24/7 and deflect. You could easily take the same take with any other faction. I wonder why you chose the Imperium?
I'm just shocked that you fail to see how every other faction is evil and you genuinely think the Imperium is nothing more than evil incarnate at the very same time. You do realize everbody's evil right? You've gone around in every thread screeching to everyone about how the Imperium is bad, why isn't their that same conviction for say Chaos or Orks?
Because everyone knows Chaos is bad. And orks, well, it depends on your view of them, I take the tack that, while funny, they are capable of moral reasoning, and thus are evil. The issue is that there's a segment of people who seem to want to frame the Imperium as the "least evil" of many options, and justified in being genocidal, murderous, ignorant, etc, because of this; I think that basically all these people come in with the preconception that a faction coded as Anglo-Christian in terms of aesthetic etc is justified and work backwards to achieve that end.
Abanshee wrote: You seem to have a clear bias against the Imperium, no matter the case. You even interrogated me over my army choice like you are some sort of Inquisitor or something, lol? That's weird to be frothing at the mouth straight out of the gate for someone's army choice, but whatever comes with the territory I guess.
I'm not the one who did that. I just thought that you were stressing about datasheet options and pointed out how the Sororitas have a similar vibe but a more restrained roster. I also posted on how I think it's wrong to consider someone's army choice of Black Templars, or, say, Krieg as a "red flag" on their personality.
I have a bias against the Imperium in the sense that I have a bias as it being portrayed as unironically laudable. Irony and black humor? Let's go, that's the point of the setting. Unironically saying that the Imperium are the good guys, and aren't worse than the Tau? You're smoking crack buddy.
Abanshee wrote: We get it, bro. Emperor and Imperium bad. Now, we ever gonna talk about what they do in the Dark City? Didn't think so.
Well, it's less controversial because everybody knows that the Dark Eldar are pricks.
Abanshee wrote: Now, take a drink, Jesus or show us on the servo-skull where the Big E touched you, lol! It's not a unfair argument to make, but it sure as hell is lazy and takes no effort to do. These are like peak-2015 dakkadakka thread posts. Put a little bit more effort forwards than just a single-minded take all the time. After a while people stop caring or listening, because you're just trying to be annoying.
Nah, my point is that what I'm saying is backed up by the setting material.
Abanshee wrote: I guess just be honest when you admit you have a clear bias rather than be dishonest 24/7 and deflect. You could easily take the same take with any other faction. I wonder why you chose the Imperium?
There are much fewer people saying "Actually, the Dark Eldar are justified in what they do and you can't say they're wrong for wanting to kidnap and torture innocent people." That's why.
I'm loving watching how a thread about the merits of an add-on space marine chapter has once again devolved into: "If you play certain armies and like them in a way I don't approve, you're a bad, bad person."
Sometimes I feel like the people who are so overly zealous in trying to show they're "anti-fascist" in hating the Imperium as a faction are almost as bad as the people who legitimately/unironically are pro-Imperium because they're IRL neo-Nazis. Virtue signalling like this is cringe guys, like Toussiant said, this is a game, no need to take this so seriously. I don't run around yelling WAAAGH! in people's faces at work because I play Orks. You can play a faction and find it interesting lorewise and still have it divorced from reality, or are you one of those people who say playing video games makes people more violent and creates serial killers?
Grimskul wrote: Sometimes I feel like the people who are so overly zealous in trying to show they're "anti-fascist" in hating the Imperium as a faction are almost as bad as the people who legitimately/unironically are pro-Imperium because they're IRL neo-Nazis. Virtue signalling like this is cringe guys, like Toussiant said, this is a game, no need to take this so seriously. I don't run around yelling WAAAGH! in people's faces at work because I play Orks. You can play a faction and find it interesting lorewise and still have it divorced from reality, or are you one of those people who say playing video games makes people more violent and creates serial killers?
The Imperium is interesting, certainly. It's not a matter of virtue signaling; I don't go posting about it on in-person social media. It bothers me because people who are unironically pro-Imperium are basically all ignorant as to the actual lore of the setting, and frequently only listen to lore YouTubers and read, like, the Ciaphas Cain books and claim things like "most world in the Imperium are pretty nice to live in, honestly."
Honestly, most factions should be appreciated ironically, considering 40k is a dark and dystopian setting. It's the fact that there's a segment that appreciates the Imperium *unironically* that's the problem.
Literally every faction in 40k is on a genocidal mission. And considering the goals and motivations of every other faction, it is 100% justified within the setting. Every species, or group within any particularl species, which wasn't made up of genocidal maniacs is extinct...
40k is basically the Dark Forest hypothesis being allowed to play out.
Nope. Tau, Leagues of Votann, and a good chunk of the Eldar aren't. There were humans who weren't but the Imperium found that philosophy abhorrent so they destroyed them.
T'au are on a genocidal mission. Join the Greater Good or die! Imposing your culture, way of life, and ethos on people is as much genocide as killing them.
Eldar will exterminate you, not because you thought or did something to them, but because one of them saw you think or do something in a hallucination of a possible future. That's beyond even just punishing you for existing.
Leagues of Votann might be only possible option, I am not familiar with them too well yet. But Im sure they have a suitable amount of grimdark issues. But if anybody was going to be a genuine good guy in 40k it would be the Space Dwarves. though it sounds like some of their robot overlord intelligences aren't exactly... the nicest.
Honestly, most factions should be appreciated ironically, considering 40k is a dark and dystopian setting. It's the fact that there's a segment that appreciates the Imperium *unironically* that's the problem.
My default in a sci-fi setting is "Humanity is the best, root for the humans!" all else being equal.
If there was a better option for humanity other than the Imperium, maybe I'd have a real choice. But there isn't. So its Imperium all the way baby.
And you know, aliens aren't people. They're aliens, so its ok to kill them. Its a cathartic experience.
T'au are on a genocidal mission. Join the Greater Good or die! Imposing your culture, way of life, and ethos on people is as much genocide as killing them.
No. They are definitely treating humans better than the PRC is treating the Uyghurs, for example.
Grey Templar wrote: Eldar will exterminate you, not because you thought or did something to them, but because one of them saw you think or do something in a hallucination of a possible future. That's beyond even just punishing you for existing.
Not really how the Eldar work. Not how the CWE work, not how the Exodites work, not how the Harlequins work, and the Drukhari don't have psykers.
Were the Eldar wrong to try to attack Abaddon right before the 13th black crusade? You'd have to say yes if you're using that reasoning in good faith.
My default in a sci-fi setting is "Humanity is the best, root for the humans!" all else being equal.
If there was a better option for humanity other than the Imperium, maybe I'd have a real choice. But there isn't. So its Imperium all the way baby.
And you know, aliens aren't people. They're aliens, so its ok to kill them. Its a cathartic experience.
No, the same moral boundaries against killing humans would apply.
Moreover, the Tau are straight up a better option for humanity than the Imperium. They have more freedom and self-determination in that society than in the Imperium.
It sounds like you're starting with the idea of the Imperium being good because it's made of humans, than working backwards making up stuff to justify that.
Grimskul wrote: Sometimes I feel like the people who are so overly zealous in trying to show they're "anti-fascist" in hating the Imperium as a faction are almost as bad as the people who legitimately/unironically are pro-Imperium because they're IRL neo-Nazis. Virtue signalling like this is cringe guys, like Toussiant said, this is a game, no need to take this so seriously. I don't run around yelling WAAAGH! in people's faces at work because I play Orks. You can play a faction and find it interesting lorewise and still have it divorced from reality, or are you one of those people who say playing video games makes people more violent and creates serial killers?
Wise words pal. That's actually been the problem in these threads that you have part just trying to having a chat about a story and hobby they like and the other ranting and being disrespectful as of you were attacking their very life. Disagreeing is not an issue as long as you keep it polite and friendly.
Maybe its because people unironically defend "The worst regime imaginable" as some kind of force for good and that rubs people the wrong way.
Just my two pennies.
As far as I am aware no one said the Imperium was good.
Some say they understand why it would act as it does in its context, which is explaining not justifying.
Some say xenos of the setting are just as evil, which is an entirely debattable question so they indeed may.
Some finally might say they know but like the character that is the imperium just as others like villains anyway, which is not reprehensible unless you ban every one not playing nids on that same logic.
As of now, while you may disagree with them, all who intervened in the topic referred to the lore and did their best to make theirs points clear.
So far, you have simply decided that you are 100% correct and that only you can because you are the only valid lore and moral authority on this fictionnal setting were per it's very definition nothing exists nor is true so interpretation of different details can vary as long as they explain themselves.
This is a public place for hanging around and having a chat about a hobby we like. It is not a court. It is not a political reeducation camp as you try to make it be.
If you don't want people to think differently than you do just go live in a cave then you will not suffer contradiction.
If you will not understand these basic rules of civility there's no point in trying to talk with you.
I've got enough slowed arguments with reluctant OR 1's at work and I won't bother getting into more on the internet with people not strong headed enough to suffer disagreement on a game. Have it your way.
Personnally I'll carry on discussing with other dakkanauts who care to keep the discussion healthy and constructive.
Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
To be easy to paint and overpowered.
There was a joke 20 years ago about how all the marines got coats of red spray paint when the BA codex came out and then were hastily redone in black and white because the Black Templars were so much better.
As for the moral implications of army selection, please. It's the grim darkness of the far future where this only WAR. It's right there on the box. I'm tired of people saying "Oh well this faction actually wants to be peaceful, so it's morally better." No, it needs to play some other game, perhaps Candy Land or Snakes and Ladders (I used the British title in deference to my cousins).
Honestly, after seeing some of the hand-wringing here, Black Templars are looking pretty good. From what some people are saying, merely fielding the army can strike terror into other players. That's pretty damn cool.
My painting is mediocre on a good day, but wouldn't it be easier to prime BT white and go from there? I find it's loads easier to make white paint on white primer look good than the other way around. Black paint on white primer looks fine because of how dark it is. Plus, while any missed spots will stand out more, it's easier to tell where you've hit with the black paint.
Yeah. It's easier to give to big coats of black with a big fat brush I think, considering most armour will be black it doesn't require outstanding precision a that stage and can be quicker than 200 layers of white!
T'au are on a genocidal mission. Join the Greater Good or die! Imposing your culture, way of life, and ethos on people is as much genocide as killing them.
No. They are definitely treating humans better than the PRC is treating the Uyghurs, for example.
Genocide that is "better" than another form of genocide is still genocide.
And we've never actually seen confirmation of humans living comfortable lives in the T'au empire. Only vague claims made by T'au ambassadors to Imperial humans. Potempkin Villages are a real possibility here.
Grey Templar wrote: Eldar will exterminate you, not because you thought or did something to them, but because one of them saw you think or do something in a hallucination of a possible future. That's beyond even just punishing you for existing.
Not really how the Eldar work. Not how the CWE work, not how the Exodites work, not how the Harlequins work, and the Drukhari don't have psykers.
Were the Eldar wrong to try to attack Abaddon right before the 13th black crusade? You'd have to say yes if you're using that reasoning in good faith.
That isn't even a related point. Eldar attacking one objectively bad person doesn't excuse them from killing innocent people because of a farseer's visions of a possible future.
Its one thing to preemptively attack someone who is preparing/might be preparing to attack you, after all they have taken a hostile action from your point of view. But killing people because you think there is a possible future in which they take a hostile act basically requires you to exterminate everyone because of course there is always a possible future in which anyone can be a threat.
No, the same moral boundaries against killing humans would apply.
Aliens. Are. Not. People.
It might be an easy moral leap to say the default status to be that any other sentient creature is equal morally speaking to humans. But it is just as valid to say that the default is that other sentient creatures, by virtue of not being human, are not morally equal to humans. They're just animals.
This is the basis for not treating animals on the same level of humans beyond just the difference in intelligence. Sure, some people today do not view animals as being sub-servient to humans and see them as equals. I don't hold those views at all but I can understand the logic behind their position. It is valid for them to hold such a view, even if I do not agree with it.
Likewise, it is valid to hold a view that aliens are the same as humans morally speaking. But it is equally valid to view them as not being equal to humans.
Moreover, the Tau are straight up a better option for humanity than the Imperium. They have more freedom and self-determination in that society than in the Imperium.
It sounds like you're starting with the idea of the Imperium being good because it's made of humans, than working backwards making up stuff to justify that.
Again, there is no unbiased evidence that humans under the T'au are better off. We have seen basically nothing one way or the other and only have the definitely not to be trusted source of a T'au saying "trust me bro". We haven't had a novel from the pov of a guevesa living in the T'au empire, we haven't even had any pov stories from normal T'au living in civilian areas.
But even if that were true. Even if it is true that Humans living under the T'au are better off in terms of base living conditions. It doesn't change the fact that its still genocide for the T'au to force humans to give up their culture, way of life, religion, etc... and embrace the Greater Good ideology. Remember, its not a free democratic society the T'au live in. Its a strictly controlled caste system. A prison cell is still a prison cell even if the bed is made of satin and the chains are gilded.
I am pretty sure there is lore from the perspective of Gue'vesa in which their quality of life is dramatically improved under the Tau Empire. I think it is in the Damocles gulf stuff from the 5th sphere expansion. Tau population density is much lower than many human worlds, and so far they have not annexed a large human hive world*. They are able to provide a high standard of living as a result.
Anyway, I agree that the Tau likely engage in at least some degree of cultural genocide. It is unclear to what extent, as they have displayed a surprising level of tolerance for the cultural practices of other species - see the tolerance of Kroot cannibalism and meat consumption in general as a prime example. IIRC, Tau are all vegetarian and really find Kroot practices uncomfortable, but they tolerate them.
Anyway, I don't think anyone was claiming the Tau are good, their empire is an imperialistic colonial warmachine that is very utilitarian in its philosophy. Only that they are generally better than the Imperium, which does appear to be true. In the same vein, I doubt few people would argue the Imperium is worse than Chaos forces, but that doesn't make the Imperium good either. Everyone is 40k is shades of black.
*Ref. the Kill Team novel, in which the Tau ambassador and their colleagues are shocked that Lieutenant Kage hails from a world where his home hive alone houses a billion people, with 13 such hives on the world. The Tau state that is more humans on one planet than Tau in the entire Sept they are in.
Genocide that is "better" than another form of genocide is still genocide.
And we've never actually seen confirmation of humans living comfortable lives in the T'au empire. Only vague claims made by T'au ambassadors to Imperial humans. Potempkin Villages are a real possibility here.
It doesn't meet the requirements for genocide. We have third person omniscient accounts of the treatment of humans in Tau space, as well as Black Library narratives; it's not that bad (at least compared to the Imperium).
That isn't even a related point. Eldar attacking one objectively bad person doesn't excuse them from killing innocent people because of a farseer's visions of a possible future.
Its one thing to preemptively attack someone who is preparing/might be preparing to attack you, after all they have taken a hostile action from your point of view. But killing people because you think there is a possible future in which they take a hostile act basically requires you to exterminate everyone because of course there is always a possible future in which anyone can be a threat.
Abaddon's future was also "possible." But I noticed you're only saying it's bad when done to the Imperium - what's your logic here? The Imperium has crosses and the aesthetic of Euro-Christianity, therefore when they genocide people it's ok?
It might be an easy moral leap to say the default status to be that any other sentient creature is equal morally speaking to humans. But it is just as valid to say that the default is that other sentient creatures, by virtue of not being human, are not morally equal to humans. They're just animals.
It's not just as valid. Especially in 40k where it's implied that Eldar and humans are related via the genetic modifications of the Old Ones. But, regardless, you're stating a conclusion ("It's laudable to be cruel to non-human sentients") without supporting it.
This is the basis for not treating animals on the same level of humans beyond just the difference in intelligence. Sure, some people today do not view animals as being sub-servient to humans and see them as equals. I don't hold those views at all but I can understand the logic behind their position. It is valid for them to hold such a view, even if I do not agree with it.
Again, there is no unbiased evidence that humans under the T'au are better off. We have seen basically nothing one way or the other and only have the definitely not to be trusted source of a T'au saying "trust me bro". We haven't had a novel from the pov of a guevesa living in the T'au empire, we haven't even had any pov stories from normal T'au living in civilian areas.
But even if that were true. Even if it is true that Humans living under the T'au are better off in terms of base living conditions. It doesn't change the fact that its still genocide for the T'au to force humans to give up their culture, way of life, religion, etc... and embrace the Greater Good ideology. Remember, its not a free democratic society the T'au live in. Its a strictly controlled caste system. A prison cell is still a prison cell even if the bed is made of satin and the chains are gilded.
The Imperium is even *less* free, and demands that anyone who doesn't worship the emperor change or die. Nobody is arguing that the Tau empire is all carebears and rainbows, just that it's morally superior to the Imperium, which it clearly is.
Gert wrote: Black Templars are a red flag faction because they are often associated with less desirable elements of the Warhammer fanbase such as homophobes, transphobes, racists and sexists.
The kind of person who will see a rainbow Space Marine, say "Heresy!" and post a really bad meme about burning heretics but also genuinely post hate speech at the same time and declare they're "Keeping politics out of the hobby".
It's a sad association but Templars suffer more than most from being a faction where utter morons don't see the obvious "You should not idolise these people" banner despite GW actually doing a relatively consistent job in portraying the Templars as raving lunatics.
That takes me back. When I first started 40k I wanted to make a black templar army. I loved the knight theme and the black and white scheme, but the store and some friends steered me away for the reasons you stated, and I am glad they did because a lot of the BT players in the area turned out to be very hateful, and in some cases proud neo-nazi's.
I would absolutely not call someone collecting black templars a "red flag" in a vacuum because the internet is not real life and is not 40k sales by any stretch of the imagination. I'm sure 95% of black templar sales come from the idea of knight with sword cool.
...but yeah, there is a dude that plays at another store in my local area whose painting posts I always see and go "hmm. german iron cross flag and military medal hanging on your wall behind the models youre painting" "Your 40k armies are DKOK, Black Templars, and Custodes" "playing hearts of iron 4 about 7 hours a day" "Oh, another painted model and it looks like you've got a world war 2 german propaganda poster on your wall too"...
I would absolutely not call someone collecting black templars a "red flag" in a vacuum because the internet is not real life and is not 40k sales by any stretch of the imagination. I'm sure 95% of black templar sales come from the idea of knight with sword cool.
...but yeah, there is a dude that plays at another store in my local area whose painting posts I always see and go "hmm. german iron cross flag and military medal hanging on your wall behind the models youre painting" "Your 40k armies are DKOK, Black Templars, and Custodes" "playing hearts of iron 4 about 7 hours a day" "Oh, another painted model and it looks like you've got a world war 2 german propaganda poster on your wall too"...
Sounds like a wehraboo nerd to me more than a fascist mostly due to the HOI IV 7 hours a day part. That remind sme of one of my gunners who is copy pasta of this and he is mostly that, a wehraboo nerd who likes to look edgy to piss people off.
Honestly, when and how did standing up to Faschists and teenage D-Bags who think Hitler had good points too, and have posters of Tucker Carlson, become, why are you being such a hostile jerk? Because this. This exact thing. "They're not racists, everyone else is." BS. Have the courage of your convictions to say what you believe. And no, it's NEVER wrong to call out and call down Nazi's, KKK, or anyone on that Spectrum. Just think, what would Indiana Jones do?
Well to me the black templar are one of the rarely sensible Spacemarine chapters. Their endless crusades means that they are always dispersed throughout the imperium getting gak done.
The secularisation between champion and command means that their best warrior is not burdened by the responsibilities of command, and can focus on bringing down the enemy's most formidible fighters whilst their commander can focus on how to best to position and compose their forces so that they have the most chances of sucsess in charging the enemy and hacking then to bits.
Neophytes as basic infantry might seem brutal but it really makes more sense than entrusting vital reconnaissance missions to untested intitates. Which is just stupid.
Genocide that is "better" than another form of genocide is still genocide.
And we've never actually seen confirmation of humans living comfortable lives in the T'au empire. Only vague claims made by T'au ambassadors to Imperial humans. Potempkin Villages are a real possibility here.
It doesn't meet the requirements for genocide. We have third person omniscient accounts of the treatment of humans in Tau space, as well as Black Library narratives; it's not that bad (at least compared to the Imperium).
Yes it does.
Spoiler:
Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people[a] in whole or in part. In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly.
Any action which is intended to destroy a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group is Genocide.
This can be accomplished by killing, but it is not the only way. You can brainwash individuals, prevent them from passing their culture, way of life, etc... onto the next generations. This latter is what the T'au are doing to the different species who join them. They deliberately attempt to erase their prior political, social, and cultural identities and turn them into good little citizens of the Greater Good.
Just because they are "nice" while doing it doesn't change that it is genocide.
That isn't even a related point. Eldar attacking one objectively bad person doesn't excuse them from killing innocent people because of a farseer's visions of a possible future.
Its one thing to preemptively attack someone who is preparing/might be preparing to attack you, after all they have taken a hostile action from your point of view. But killing people because you think there is a possible future in which they take a hostile act basically requires you to exterminate everyone because of course there is always a possible future in which anyone can be a threat.
Abaddon's future was also "possible." But I noticed you're only saying it's bad when done to the Imperium - what's your logic here? The Imperium has crosses and the aesthetic of Euro-Christianity, therefore when they genocide people it's ok?
Don't misrepresent what I said. I never said the Imperium were 'good' guys. Everybody in 40k is bad. But they are my chosen protagonists so I'll root for them above all else, if for nothing other than they are the only reason humanity isn't extinct.
It might be an easy moral leap to say the default status to be that any other sentient creature is equal morally speaking to humans. But it is just as valid to say that the default is that other sentient creatures, by virtue of not being human, are not morally equal to humans. They're just animals.
It's not just as valid. Especially in 40k where it's implied that Eldar and humans are related via the genetic modifications of the Old Ones. But, regardless, you're stating a conclusion ("It's laudable to be cruel to non-human sentients") without supporting it.
No, the conclusion is that since non-human sentient creatures are not human it is not automatically morally wrong to be cruel to them or even wipe them out. Its not automatically a good thing either. Its just a thing. Possibly even a necessary thing.
But again, my point was everybody in 40k is evil from everyone elses pov.
This is the basis for not treating animals on the same level of humans beyond just the difference in intelligence. Sure, some people today do not view animals as being sub-servient to humans and see them as equals. I don't hold those views at all but I can understand the logic behind their position. It is valid for them to hold such a view, even if I do not agree with it.
No, intelligence has a lot to do with it.
Yes, but not everybody sees it that way. There are some very militant animal rights people out there. Or just some religious beliefs where there is no line drawn between humans and animals. They are a minority for a reason, but it is still a thing.
The same reasons you can justify this is the same logic that might lead someone to not classify aliens as having the same moral equivalence to humans as we do with each other.
Again, there is no unbiased evidence that humans under the T'au are better off. We have seen basically nothing one way or the other and only have the definitely not to be trusted source of a T'au saying "trust me bro". We haven't had a novel from the pov of a guevesa living in the T'au empire, we haven't even had any pov stories from normal T'au living in civilian areas.
But even if that were true. Even if it is true that Humans living under the T'au are better off in terms of base living conditions. It doesn't change the fact that its still genocide for the T'au to force humans to give up their culture, way of life, religion, etc... and embrace the Greater Good ideology. Remember, its not a free democratic society the T'au live in. Its a strictly controlled caste system. A prison cell is still a prison cell even if the bed is made of satin and the chains are gilded.
The Imperium is even *less* free, and demands that anyone who doesn't worship the emperor change or die. Nobody is arguing that the Tau empire is all carebears and rainbows, just that it's morally superior to the Imperium, which it clearly is.
Is it? Some parts of it for sure. Others not so much. My personal view is that insidious plans hidden under a guise of good intentions are far worse than something which is honest about how bad it is.
T'au are still bad and evil by our modern standards. Imperium is bad and evil by modern standards too.
Right but the Imperium isn't honest about, well anything.
Factorum workers are told by their priests that they exist to do the work they are doing in the name of the God Emperor. They're told they shouldn't rebel or hate the Planetary Governor because they're the chosen representative of the God Emperor.
Rebelling against the Governor is as if they were rebelling against the Emperor himself.
The Imperium lies to its soldiers with propaganda about its foes and its only those who have survived wars that get sceptical about the lies, which in turn leads some to turning against the Imperium.
The very core of the Imperial state religion is built on worship of a being who sought to eradicate religion and its primary creed was written by the first Primarch to fall to Chaos.
Even the whole "Hate the Xenos, the Mutant, and the Heretic" is a pile of nonsense. The Imperium uses Psykers to navigate its ships, for interstellar communication and as soldiers across various forces. It studies Xenos technology and uses it often. And a Heretic is just whoever the Ecclesiarchy happens to hate at a given time.
The only time the Imperium tells the truth is when it tells Guardsmen they're going to die for the Emperor.
Just because they are "nice" while doing it doesn't change that it is genocide.
No, for it to count as genocide they'd have to be destroying the *entire* Imperial Faith. None of what you described applies to what the Tau are actually doing.
Don't misrepresent what I said. I never said the Imperium were 'good' guys. Everybody in 40k is bad. But they are my chosen protagonists so I'll root for them above all else, if for nothing other than they are the only reason humanity isn't extinct.
I'm not misrepresenting what you said, it's just that what you said is hypocritical. Why is it ok to attack Abaddon based on what he might do but not a member of the Imperium?
Moreover, unironically rooting for the Imperium is missing the point, morally and narratively. Also, the Imperium didn't really save humanity - it's just ensured an eternity of subjugation and oppression for humanity. Even if the emperor fell down a flight of stairs and broke his neck before making the Primarchs, there'd still be humans.
No, the conclusion is that since non-human sentient creatures are not human it is not automatically morally wrong to be cruel to them or even wipe them out. Its not automatically a good thing either. Its just a thing. Possibly even a necessary thing.
That conclusion doesn't follow from its premises. At all.
Yes, but not everybody sees it that way. There are some very militant animal rights people out there. Or just some religious beliefs where there is no line drawn between humans and animals. They are a minority for a reason, but it is still a thing.
The same reasons you can justify this is the same logic that might lead someone to not classify aliens as having the same moral equivalence to humans as we do with each other.
No, because almost all people think that the capacity for self-awareness and intelligence is a key part of why hunting other humans for food is wrong.
Is it? Some parts of it for sure. Others not so much. My personal view is that insidious plans hidden under a guise of good intentions are far worse than something which is honest about how bad it is.
T'au are still bad and evil by our modern standards. Imperium is bad and evil by modern standards too.
The Imperium is even less honest than the Tau. What's more, your claim - that the Imperium is honest - is based around the idea that you *want* the Imperium to be justified in its actions, not that you think they *are*. That's very dishonest on your part, and trying to come up with reasons why the Imperium are the unironic good guys for killing baby aliens (and baby humans) doesn't speak to your character.
Just because they are "nice" while doing it doesn't change that it is genocide.
No, for it to count as genocide they'd have to be destroying the *entire* Imperial Faith. None of what you described applies to what the Tau are actually doing.
Don't misrepresent what I said. I never said the Imperium were 'good' guys. Everybody in 40k is bad. But they are my chosen protagonists so I'll root for them above all else, if for nothing other than they are the only reason humanity isn't extinct.
I'm not misrepresenting what you said, it's just that what you said is hypocritical. Why is it ok to attack Abaddon based on what he might do but not a member of the Imperium?
Moreover, unironically rooting for the Imperium is missing the point, morally and narratively. Also, the Imperium didn't really save humanity - it's just ensured an eternity of subjugation and oppression for humanity. Even if the emperor fell down a flight of stairs and broke his neck before making the Primarchs, there'd still be humans.
No, the conclusion is that since non-human sentient creatures are not human it is not automatically morally wrong to be cruel to them or even wipe them out. Its not automatically a good thing either. Its just a thing. Possibly even a necessary thing.
That conclusion doesn't follow from its premises. At all.
Yes, but not everybody sees it that way. There are some very militant animal rights people out there. Or just some religious beliefs where there is no line drawn between humans and animals. They are a minority for a reason, but it is still a thing.
The same reasons you can justify this is the same logic that might lead someone to not classify aliens as having the same moral equivalence to humans as we do with each other.
No, because almost all people think that the capacity for self-awareness and intelligence is a key part of why hunting other humans for food is wrong.
Is it? Some parts of it for sure. Others not so much. My personal view is that insidious plans hidden under a guise of good intentions are far worse than something which is honest about how bad it is.
T'au are still bad and evil by our modern standards. Imperium is bad and evil by modern standards too.
The Imperium is even less honest than the Tau. What's more, your claim - that the Imperium is honest - is based around the idea that you *want* the Imperium to be justified in its actions, not that you think they *are*. That's very dishonest on your part, and trying to come up with reasons why the Imperium are the unironic good guys for killing baby aliens (and baby humans) doesn't speak to your character.
I'm just a tad confused about why this is as hostile as it is. Are you suggesting Tau or good guys?
Like I just don't get why this is turned into some debate.
It doesn't really matter, 40k is a horrible place to live and everyone and everything is rubbish.
As for Black Templars. The point of them is to show the fierce blade that is honour and allegience without fault to the imperium.
Remember 40k is still a fantasy setting.
Blood Angels - Space Vampires
Necrons - Space Undead
Thousand Sons - Space Egyptians
Grey Knights - Space Wizards
Orks - Space Orcs
Aeldari - Space Elves
Votaan - Space Dwarves.
Black Templars - Space Crusaders
Dark Angels - Space Knights
Their themes match their fantasy counterparts still. Things are in space but their source is still very much based in traditional fantasy.
Soon enough you'll be called a fetching fascist and the cause of plague and bad harvests for being benighted and not calling the Imperium the greater satan of 40k, and if you try to explain your point if view, you'll have put the finger in the cogs and see why it all went out of hand lol.
Black Templars are a beautifully simple concept executed nearly perfectly. One of the better chapters imo because there isn't much of an attempt made by GW to humanize them. They revel in their own rigidity and absurdity which is kinda the whole point of 40k.
I'd beg to differ, the black templar are far from absurd and make other chapters seem absurd.
They don't use poorly trained initiates for important intelligence gathering operations like recon. Instead they put them at the front of the battle line to soak up as much battle experience as they can get .
Secondly they have a dedicated guy who has the best gear and is the professional arse kicker. Other chapters give this role to their captain/force commanders, which is dumb as a secularisation here means the commander can focus on his job, making sure all the lads are in position, that forces are composed properly and supplied to best enable them to have the best chances of sucsessfully charging the enemy and hacking them to bits, whilst the champion can focus on his his task, hacking them to bits.
Thirdly, their chapter is absolutely at all times getting the good work done. You know, like the entire purpose of the creation of the spacemarines. Unlike other chapters **Cough** Dark Angels**Cough** Ultramarines *Cought* that constantly have large portions of their chapter essentially on home duty, or protecting their own interests, rather than actually fighting the enemies of the imperium.
Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people[a] in whole or in part. In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly.
Any action which is intended to destroy a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group is Genocide.
This can be accomplished by killing, but it is not the only way. You can brainwash individuals, prevent them from passing their culture, way of life, etc... onto the next generations. This latter is what the T'au are doing to the different species who join them. They deliberately attempt to erase their prior political, social, and cultural identities and turn them into good little citizens of the Greater Good.
Just because they are "nice" while doing it doesn't change that it is genocide.
Genuine question: where in the lore do we see the Tau destroying the cultures of species that join the Empire? As far as I can tell, Kroot maintain essentially the same cultural practices within the Empire and out of it. This is despite such practices being pretty horrible to most species including the Tau (cannibalism and eating the corpses of enemies).
No, intelligence has a lot to do with it.
Yes, but not everybody sees it that way. There are some very militant animal rights people out there. Or just some religious beliefs where there is no line drawn between humans and animals. They are a minority for a reason, but it is still a thing.
The same reasons you can justify this is the same logic that might lead someone to not classify aliens as having the same moral equivalence to humans as we do with each other.
If intelligence (broadly speaking) didn't matter, I think they would struggle with killing plants or washing hands and killing micro-organisms.
I'm just a tad confused about why this is as hostile as it is. Are you suggesting Tau or good guys?
Like I just don't get why this is turned into some debate.
It doesn't really matter, 40k is a horrible place to live and everyone and everything is rubbish.
I'm saying they're better than the Imperium, which is accurate. And Grey Templar is implying that the Imperium is more virtuous than the Tau, which is incorrect and calls his motives into question.
It *does* matter because there are people who unironically stan the Imperium.
Oh no, watch out, you're going to trigger the inner antifa inside him and he's going to go full keyboard warrior on you saying you're all the isms under the sun for the evil that is thought crime as if that's going to change your mind somehow.
The Tau empire is better than the imperium because it's not in decline. And it's not filled with humans that will occasionally go crazy, form cults and butcher their neighbours.
And it has not had other species go crazy and try to annihilate it from the inside out in the past.
Although with them apparently ever encroaching into imperial space one can think that yeah, with the increasing threat of chaos interference and incursion because of higher concentrations of humans within the empire one day the Tau might exterminate humans on sight rather than try to intergrate them.
Hecaton wrote: I'm saying they're better than the Imperium, which is accurate. And Grey Templar is implying that the Imperium is more virtuous than the Tau, which is incorrect and calls his motives into question.
It *does* matter because there are people who unironically stan the Imperium.
The fact that people are seriously, non-ironically arguing that the Tau are actually "Good Guys" is proof that they have no place in 40k.
The fact that we have chuds in here who literally are so afraid of Space Communists that they have to defend the merits of Space Nazis is why we had the "You're not Welcome here" post by GW.
Hecaton wrote: I'm saying they're better than the Imperium, which is accurate. And Grey Templar is implying that the Imperium is more virtuous than the Tau, which is incorrect and calls his motives into question.
It *does* matter because there are people who unironically stan the Imperium.
The fact that people are seriously, non-ironically arguing that the Tau are actually "Good Guys" is proof that they have no place in 40k.
QED.
Are you parsing what I'm saying correctly? Or are you just willfully misinterpreting it to make a point?
And it has not had other species go crazy and try to annihilate it from the inside out in the past.
Didn't happen. It's like the WWI era myth that Germany was betrayed by disloyal Jews. There were always orks etc causing problems but they were never betrayed by aliens to the point where it pulled the rug out from under them.
Oh, the reverse "both sides" argument. Please give it a rest. Yes, we all understand this is a terrible setting, but we can still call certain groups evil, or despicable, without comparing them to a more evil person. The Hound is an evil child murdering bastard. Is he as evil as Cersi, or the Mountain, or Littlefinger? No, nor does that remotely address the point that the Hound is an evil SOB.
The Black Templars are not a "cool" or in the least bit redeemable entity, no matter the justification used. They are Elite Space Nazis.
.
