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2023/08/14 16:12:59
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Tau? You find better being rule by a single party of priviledged individuals in a rigid cast system were free will is chastised, and where information is hidden (see Aun'vas holograph and Farsight enclaves totally not being a thing) and lied about? The Tau are dicks. They don't go about it the same manner, they are more subtle characters. hence why their stories involve more diplomacy. And is expansion according to their manifest destiny a good thing? Nah, saying Tau are better is not true.
No, it is. The Tau are authoritarian, the Imperium is turbo-fascists. The Tay practice gunboat diplomacy, the Imperium would rather just genocide other species. The Tau are at least competent enough to understand that oppressing and depriving your own population of basic necessities is wrong and inefficient; the Imperium will do it just for gaks and giggles.
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Eldar happily sacrifice a billion other people as chaff. Best example is Eldars sacrificing armaggedon by trhowing the orks at it to preserve their kin. Or how the help in the organising of the exterminatus in DoW2 (which events are canon)? How is that less abhorrent than what the imperium does? How is their goal not te reestablish dominance because they feel only they are masters and they want to subjugate all other "inferior" races?
Because it's not. Only certain groups (Frozen Stars etc) actually want that, the rest of them just want to survive, and if other races don't threaten them they'll leave them alone. Unlike the Imperium, which wants to see every alien baby strangled in its crib.
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Don't know how they rebooted the squats with votanns but old squats with their honour bound grudges brought to massacres for the slightest percieved insult. How is that better belief than the Imperium's?
Ah, so you just don't really know the lore and are going off of feel?
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Every 40k faction is in essence abhorrent, each with its means of expressing it. The imperium is not the villain. It is one of the villains. Black templar are an aspect of that character, an blatant one.
Black templars are a simple theme, maybe not the most original, but they fit the larger lore of their character well.
To a degree. But they're not *equally* abhorrent, and the Imperium is way worse than the Tau or CWE.
No, I just have to look at the xenos factions, some of whom aren't the degenerate baby-murderers that the Imperium is, and who are motivated to take the Imperium out behind the tool shed and put it down like the mad dog it is. Just because someone thinks the space Catholic turbofascists are the heroes of the story because they align yourself with that aesthetic and belief system doesn't make it true; there's a lot of wishful thinking going on in this thread and elsewhere where people are making things up to make the Imperium look better. I blame lore youtubers and secondaries; if you read the actual sourcebooks it's much clearer that you're wrong.
He's correct that their intentions aren't genocidal, however, their actions most definitely are. After all, the road to hell is paved with "good intentions".
It's just that he's failed to mention anything negative about any other faction other than the Imperium of Man from what I've seen. It's simply an argument made in bad faith.
You're mad I judge different factions differently, because they're... different? It's not unfair to call out the Imperium for being made up of a bunch of baby-murdering degenerates, when that's what they are. They *are* worse than a number of other factions; it seems like you're upset that fact's being acknowledged. I don't have to be even-handed when one party is explicitly worse than the others.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/08/14 16:15:12
2023/08/14 17:42:24
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: The Imperiums mission is not necesseraly genocidal at heart. It is the very same as all other races safe orks who just want to have a good laughs and DE who don't care. Other predate to feed/expand and survive. It is pretty much the same the Eldar would do if they weren't portrayed as weakened or the Tau if they had the means to go toe to toe with the ressources of the imperium.
No, they explicitly are. When the Imperium encountered Xenos species during the Great Crusade, which was pre-religious dogma and degeneration found in the modern Imperium, they were eradicated. The Diasporex was a mixed human/Xenos alliance that just wanted to be left alone but the manifest destiny of the Imperium saw the Xenos eradicated and the humans enslaved. The Interex were utterly destroyed by the Sons of Horus pre-corruption even when a diplomatic settlement could have been achieved. There were numerous Xenos species that didn't have to be wiped out but were because the Imperium was so fixated on human domination of the galaxy that it saw no other recourse. Even in the few rare instances where Xenos populations were subjugated rather than eradicated, it was either due to them being too irritating to deal with at that point (such as the Jokaero) or they had some use, such as the species the Imperium used to make a drug that eventually wiped them out.
2023/08/14 20:52:56
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
The Imperiums mission is not necesseraly genocidal at heart. It is the very same as all other races safe orks who just want to have a good laughs and DE who don't care. Other predate to feed/expand and survive. It is pretty much the same the Eldar would do if they weren't portrayed as weakened or the Tau if they had the means to go toe to toe with the ressources of the imperium.
As a summary: I don't think the different empires in 40k setting are supposed to have dinstinct intentions. In fact they have the same. But in a setting where the Imperium is the dominant fish, it can apply all its stupidity to bully the tinier fishes. If you reversed the situation and put Eldar in command, the scenario could totally be written in quite the same fashion but with Eldard bullying their neighbours.
Then of course the way they achieve it or try to varies, but in the end, they're all pretty much the same as far as ethics go.
For this reason i still disagree on that detail.
The Imperium is explicitly genocidal to all sentient xenos and has a central goverment policy that all sentient xenos are to be made extinct. This hasn't changed since the Great Crusade. Some xenos get a temporary stay of execution, usually for pragmatic reasons like an alliance of convemience or insufficient Imperial resources to currently prosecute a war against them. Rogue Traders explicitly have the right to trade with aliens in order to scout out aliens and lull them into a false sense of security.
In contrast, whilst all other major players in the 40k galaxy engage in genocide, most of them do no have an explicitly mono-species agenda. The main exception is the Tyranids, who are omnicidal, and some Necron factions. Other Necron factions are happy to do.inate other species. Chaos will commit acts of great destruction and cruelty including genocide, but Chaos is not limited to humans and many human followers of Chaos work with Chaotic xenos. Orks live for war and have a might-makes-right philosophy, but genocide is pretty rare* and enslavement of defeated peoples is the usual outcome. Tau obviously incorporate multiple xenos races into their empire. Eldar are a bit more complicated and have been shown to be very happy to commit genocide on other species if it saves an Aeldari life, but equally the mainstream view for Cratworld Eldar is of dominance over other species rather than extermination. The pre-Fall Eldar clearly did not see the need for genocide of all other sentients or there would be basically no aliens at all in 40k, likely including humans. Dark Eldar require others to survive if they don't want to change their hedonistic ways, so are very unlikely to try to exterminate all other species.
So in short, I disagree that the main factions in 40k are all the same in their intentions. I think they are all horrible, evil entities but in typically very distinct ways. I think so many flavours of bad is part of the charm of the setting!
*Not unheard of though- the Black Slayers on Armageddon were noted for being especially ruthless in killing all they found.
I take your point on the fact most imperial diplomacy is based on pragmatic interests rather than benevolence, no putting that in question. But it does happen. The case where the imperium has conquered all the galaxy and enjoys peace has not been described so we can say that yes they'd kill of all reminders or no they wouldn't care and as of know, while we lean on yes they're so mad they'd kill them off we can't affirm. This is the problem with a fiction, we can discuss it but as long as an author hasn't written it we can't say 100%.
Also, how much do you think that in the sort of character development of the Imperium (and the emperor) could the Age of strife have weighted? I mean, pre great crusade the imperium was pretty much rampaged by xenos. We may assume this scarred the human psyche and so even the emperor ran on fear in a sense. Plus the fact that the project of the emperor couldn't possibly be achieved if any human faction remained that didn't believe in the imperial truth and kept feeding chaos?
Anyhow, my point would be: yes, the imperium is man and ran by idiots, the lore is clear about it. But going in details, what s the root of this madness? What is the character made of?
So that, when I say "their no genocidal in their mission at heart", I lean they didn't start it for giggles but instead represent a character built on their excessive fear to the point of stupidity, madness and violence.
Not that it changes much as facts are concerned. But the why is it so? Hope you get my point!
40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.
"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably.
2023/08/14 21:02:51
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Tau? You find better being rule by a single party of priviledged individuals in a rigid cast system were free will is chastised, and where information is hidden (see Aun'vas holograph and Farsight enclaves totally not being a thing) and lied about? The Tau are dicks. They don't go about it the same manner, they are more subtle characters. hence why their stories involve more diplomacy. And is expansion according to their manifest destiny a good thing? Nah, saying Tau are better is not true.
No, it is. The Tau are authoritarian, the Imperium is turbo-fascists. The Tay practice gunboat diplomacy, the Imperium would rather just genocide other species. The Tau are at least competent enough to understand that oppressing and depriving your own population of basic necessities is wrong and inefficient; the Imperium will do it just for gaks and giggles.
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Eldar happily sacrifice a billion other people as chaff. Best example is Eldars sacrificing armaggedon by trhowing the orks at it to preserve their kin. Or how the help in the organising of the exterminatus in DoW2 (which events are canon)? How is that less abhorrent than what the imperium does? How is their goal not te reestablish dominance because they feel only they are masters and they want to subjugate all other "inferior" races?
Because it's not. Only certain groups (Frozen Stars etc) actually want that, the rest of them just want to survive, and if other races don't threaten them they'll leave them alone. Unlike the Imperium, which wants to see every alien baby strangled in its crib.
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Don't know how they rebooted the squats with votanns but old squats with their honour bound grudges brought to massacres for the slightest percieved insult. How is that better belief than the Imperium's?
Ah, so you just don't really know the lore and are going off of feel?
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Every 40k faction is in essence abhorrent, each with its means of expressing it. The imperium is not the villain. It is one of the villains. Black templar are an aspect of that character, an blatant one.
Black templars are a simple theme, maybe not the most original, but they fit the larger lore of their character well.
To a degree. But they're not *equally* abhorrent, and the Imperium is way worse than the Tau or CWE.
No, I just have to look at the xenos factions, some of whom aren't the degenerate baby-murderers that the Imperium is, and who are motivated to take the Imperium out behind the tool shed and put it down like the mad dog it is. Just because someone thinks the space Catholic turbofascists are the heroes of the story because they align yourself with that aesthetic and belief system doesn't make it true; there's a lot of wishful thinking going on in this thread and elsewhere where people are making things up to make the Imperium look better. I blame lore youtubers and secondaries; if you read the actual sourcebooks it's much clearer that you're wrong.
He's correct that their intentions aren't genocidal, however, their actions most definitely are. After all, the road to hell is paved with "good intentions".
It's just that he's failed to mention anything negative about any other faction other than the Imperium of Man from what I've seen. It's simply an argument made in bad faith.
You're mad I judge different factions differently, because they're... different? It's not unfair to call out the Imperium for being made up of a bunch of baby-murdering degenerates, when that's what they are. They *are* worse than a number of other factions; it seems like you're upset that fact's being acknowledged. I don't have to be even-handed when one party is explicitly worse than the others.
I'm just shocked that you fail to see how every other faction is evil and you genuinely think the Imperium is nothing more than evil incarnate at the very same time. You do realize everbody's evil right? You've gone around in every thread screeching to everyone about how the Imperium is bad, why isn't their that same conviction for say Chaos or Orks? You seem to have a clear bias against the Imperium, no matter the case. You even interrogated me over my army choice like you are some sort of Inquisitor or something, lol? That's weird to be frothing at the mouth straight out of the gate for someone's army choice, but whatever comes with the territory I guess.
We get it, bro. Emperor and Imperium bad. Now, we ever gonna talk about what they do in the Dark City? Didn't think so.
Now, take a drink, Jesus or show us on the servo-skull where the Big E touched you, lol! It's not a unfair argument to make, but it sure as hell is lazy and takes no effort to do. These are like peak-2015 dakkadakka thread posts. Put a little bit more effort forwards than just a single-minded take all the time. After a while people stop caring or listening, because you're just trying to be annoying.
I guess just be honest when you admit you have a clear bias rather than be dishonest 24/7 and deflect. You could easily take the same take with any other faction. I wonder why you chose the Imperium?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/08/14 21:06:10
2023/08/14 22:20:25
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
I'm just shocked that you fail to see how every other faction is evil and you genuinely think the Imperium is nothing more than evil incarnate at the very same time. You do realize everbody's evil right? You've gone around in every thread screeching to everyone about how the Imperium is bad, why isn't their that same conviction for say Chaos or Orks?
Because everyone knows Chaos is bad. And orks, well, it depends on your view of them, I take the tack that, while funny, they are capable of moral reasoning, and thus are evil. The issue is that there's a segment of people who seem to want to frame the Imperium as the "least evil" of many options, and justified in being genocidal, murderous, ignorant, etc, because of this; I think that basically all these people come in with the preconception that a faction coded as Anglo-Christian in terms of aesthetic etc is justified and work backwards to achieve that end.
Abanshee wrote: You seem to have a clear bias against the Imperium, no matter the case. You even interrogated me over my army choice like you are some sort of Inquisitor or something, lol? That's weird to be frothing at the mouth straight out of the gate for someone's army choice, but whatever comes with the territory I guess.
I'm not the one who did that. I just thought that you were stressing about datasheet options and pointed out how the Sororitas have a similar vibe but a more restrained roster. I also posted on how I think it's wrong to consider someone's army choice of Black Templars, or, say, Krieg as a "red flag" on their personality.
I have a bias against the Imperium in the sense that I have a bias as it being portrayed as unironically laudable. Irony and black humor? Let's go, that's the point of the setting. Unironically saying that the Imperium are the good guys, and aren't worse than the Tau? You're smoking crack buddy.
Abanshee wrote: We get it, bro. Emperor and Imperium bad. Now, we ever gonna talk about what they do in the Dark City? Didn't think so.
Well, it's less controversial because everybody knows that the Dark Eldar are pricks.
Abanshee wrote: Now, take a drink, Jesus or show us on the servo-skull where the Big E touched you, lol! It's not a unfair argument to make, but it sure as hell is lazy and takes no effort to do. These are like peak-2015 dakkadakka thread posts. Put a little bit more effort forwards than just a single-minded take all the time. After a while people stop caring or listening, because you're just trying to be annoying.
Nah, my point is that what I'm saying is backed up by the setting material.
Abanshee wrote: I guess just be honest when you admit you have a clear bias rather than be dishonest 24/7 and deflect. You could easily take the same take with any other faction. I wonder why you chose the Imperium?
There are much fewer people saying "Actually, the Dark Eldar are justified in what they do and you can't say they're wrong for wanting to kidnap and torture innocent people." That's why.
2023/08/14 22:21:53
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
I'm loving watching how a thread about the merits of an add-on space marine chapter has once again devolved into: "If you play certain armies and like them in a way I don't approve, you're a bad, bad person."
Lighten up, people. It's only a game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/08/14 22:22:20
Sometimes I feel like the people who are so overly zealous in trying to show they're "anti-fascist" in hating the Imperium as a faction are almost as bad as the people who legitimately/unironically are pro-Imperium because they're IRL neo-Nazis. Virtue signalling like this is cringe guys, like Toussiant said, this is a game, no need to take this so seriously. I don't run around yelling WAAAGH! in people's faces at work because I play Orks. You can play a faction and find it interesting lorewise and still have it divorced from reality, or are you one of those people who say playing video games makes people more violent and creates serial killers?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/08/15 03:18:24
2023/08/15 05:07:06
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
Grimskul wrote: Sometimes I feel like the people who are so overly zealous in trying to show they're "anti-fascist" in hating the Imperium as a faction are almost as bad as the people who legitimately/unironically are pro-Imperium because they're IRL neo-Nazis. Virtue signalling like this is cringe guys, like Toussiant said, this is a game, no need to take this so seriously. I don't run around yelling WAAAGH! in people's faces at work because I play Orks. You can play a faction and find it interesting lorewise and still have it divorced from reality, or are you one of those people who say playing video games makes people more violent and creates serial killers?
The Imperium is interesting, certainly. It's not a matter of virtue signaling; I don't go posting about it on in-person social media. It bothers me because people who are unironically pro-Imperium are basically all ignorant as to the actual lore of the setting, and frequently only listen to lore YouTubers and read, like, the Ciaphas Cain books and claim things like "most world in the Imperium are pretty nice to live in, honestly."
Honestly, most factions should be appreciated ironically, considering 40k is a dark and dystopian setting. It's the fact that there's a segment that appreciates the Imperium *unironically* that's the problem.
2023/08/15 05:46:09
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
Literally every faction in 40k is on a genocidal mission. And considering the goals and motivations of every other faction, it is 100% justified within the setting. Every species, or group within any particularl species, which wasn't made up of genocidal maniacs is extinct...
40k is basically the Dark Forest hypothesis being allowed to play out.
Nope. Tau, Leagues of Votann, and a good chunk of the Eldar aren't. There were humans who weren't but the Imperium found that philosophy abhorrent so they destroyed them.
T'au are on a genocidal mission. Join the Greater Good or die! Imposing your culture, way of life, and ethos on people is as much genocide as killing them.
Eldar will exterminate you, not because you thought or did something to them, but because one of them saw you think or do something in a hallucination of a possible future. That's beyond even just punishing you for existing.
Leagues of Votann might be only possible option, I am not familiar with them too well yet. But Im sure they have a suitable amount of grimdark issues. But if anybody was going to be a genuine good guy in 40k it would be the Space Dwarves. though it sounds like some of their robot overlord intelligences aren't exactly... the nicest.
Honestly, most factions should be appreciated ironically, considering 40k is a dark and dystopian setting. It's the fact that there's a segment that appreciates the Imperium *unironically* that's the problem.
My default in a sci-fi setting is "Humanity is the best, root for the humans!" all else being equal.
If there was a better option for humanity other than the Imperium, maybe I'd have a real choice. But there isn't. So its Imperium all the way baby.
And you know, aliens aren't people. They're aliens, so its ok to kill them. Its a cathartic experience.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/08/15 05:51:01
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
T'au are on a genocidal mission. Join the Greater Good or die! Imposing your culture, way of life, and ethos on people is as much genocide as killing them.
No. They are definitely treating humans better than the PRC is treating the Uyghurs, for example.
Grey Templar wrote: Eldar will exterminate you, not because you thought or did something to them, but because one of them saw you think or do something in a hallucination of a possible future. That's beyond even just punishing you for existing.
Not really how the Eldar work. Not how the CWE work, not how the Exodites work, not how the Harlequins work, and the Drukhari don't have psykers.
Were the Eldar wrong to try to attack Abaddon right before the 13th black crusade? You'd have to say yes if you're using that reasoning in good faith.
My default in a sci-fi setting is "Humanity is the best, root for the humans!" all else being equal.
If there was a better option for humanity other than the Imperium, maybe I'd have a real choice. But there isn't. So its Imperium all the way baby.
And you know, aliens aren't people. They're aliens, so its ok to kill them. Its a cathartic experience.
No, the same moral boundaries against killing humans would apply.
Moreover, the Tau are straight up a better option for humanity than the Imperium. They have more freedom and self-determination in that society than in the Imperium.
It sounds like you're starting with the idea of the Imperium being good because it's made of humans, than working backwards making up stuff to justify that.
2023/08/15 06:34:49
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
Grimskul wrote: Sometimes I feel like the people who are so overly zealous in trying to show they're "anti-fascist" in hating the Imperium as a faction are almost as bad as the people who legitimately/unironically are pro-Imperium because they're IRL neo-Nazis. Virtue signalling like this is cringe guys, like Toussiant said, this is a game, no need to take this so seriously. I don't run around yelling WAAAGH! in people's faces at work because I play Orks. You can play a faction and find it interesting lorewise and still have it divorced from reality, or are you one of those people who say playing video games makes people more violent and creates serial killers?
Wise words pal. That's actually been the problem in these threads that you have part just trying to having a chat about a story and hobby they like and the other ranting and being disrespectful as of you were attacking their very life. Disagreeing is not an issue as long as you keep it polite and friendly.
40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.
"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably.
2023/08/15 06:44:40
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
Maybe its because people unironically defend "The worst regime imaginable" as some kind of force for good and that rubs people the wrong way.
Just my two pennies.
2023/08/15 07:30:29
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
As far as I am aware no one said the Imperium was good.
Some say they understand why it would act as it does in its context, which is explaining not justifying.
Some say xenos of the setting are just as evil, which is an entirely debattable question so they indeed may.
Some finally might say they know but like the character that is the imperium just as others like villains anyway, which is not reprehensible unless you ban every one not playing nids on that same logic.
As of now, while you may disagree with them, all who intervened in the topic referred to the lore and did their best to make theirs points clear.
So far, you have simply decided that you are 100% correct and that only you can because you are the only valid lore and moral authority on this fictionnal setting were per it's very definition nothing exists nor is true so interpretation of different details can vary as long as they explain themselves.
This is a public place for hanging around and having a chat about a hobby we like. It is not a court. It is not a political reeducation camp as you try to make it be.
If you don't want people to think differently than you do just go live in a cave then you will not suffer contradiction.
If you will not understand these basic rules of civility there's no point in trying to talk with you.
I've got enough slowed arguments with reluctant OR 1's at work and I won't bother getting into more on the internet with people not strong headed enough to suffer disagreement on a game. Have it your way.
Personnally I'll carry on discussing with other dakkanauts who care to keep the discussion healthy and constructive.
40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.
"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably.
2023/08/15 08:09:21
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
To be easy to paint and overpowered.
There was a joke 20 years ago about how all the marines got coats of red spray paint when the BA codex came out and then were hastily redone in black and white because the Black Templars were so much better.
As for the moral implications of army selection, please. It's the grim darkness of the far future where this only WAR. It's right there on the box. I'm tired of people saying "Oh well this faction actually wants to be peaceful, so it's morally better." No, it needs to play some other game, perhaps Candy Land or Snakes and Ladders (I used the British title in deference to my cousins).
Honestly, after seeing some of the hand-wringing here, Black Templars are looking pretty good. From what some people are saying, merely fielding the army can strike terror into other players. That's pretty damn cool.
My painting is mediocre on a good day, but wouldn't it be easier to prime BT white and go from there? I find it's loads easier to make white paint on white primer look good than the other way around. Black paint on white primer looks fine because of how dark it is. Plus, while any missed spots will stand out more, it's easier to tell where you've hit with the black paint.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
2023/08/16 05:22:21
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
Yeah. It's easier to give to big coats of black with a big fat brush I think, considering most armour will be black it doesn't require outstanding precision a that stage and can be quicker than 200 layers of white!
That's a bit counter intuitive though
40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.
"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably.
2023/08/16 07:38:29
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
T'au are on a genocidal mission. Join the Greater Good or die! Imposing your culture, way of life, and ethos on people is as much genocide as killing them.
No. They are definitely treating humans better than the PRC is treating the Uyghurs, for example.
Genocide that is "better" than another form of genocide is still genocide.
And we've never actually seen confirmation of humans living comfortable lives in the T'au empire. Only vague claims made by T'au ambassadors to Imperial humans. Potempkin Villages are a real possibility here.
Grey Templar wrote: Eldar will exterminate you, not because you thought or did something to them, but because one of them saw you think or do something in a hallucination of a possible future. That's beyond even just punishing you for existing.
Not really how the Eldar work. Not how the CWE work, not how the Exodites work, not how the Harlequins work, and the Drukhari don't have psykers.
Were the Eldar wrong to try to attack Abaddon right before the 13th black crusade? You'd have to say yes if you're using that reasoning in good faith.
That isn't even a related point. Eldar attacking one objectively bad person doesn't excuse them from killing innocent people because of a farseer's visions of a possible future.
Its one thing to preemptively attack someone who is preparing/might be preparing to attack you, after all they have taken a hostile action from your point of view. But killing people because you think there is a possible future in which they take a hostile act basically requires you to exterminate everyone because of course there is always a possible future in which anyone can be a threat.
No, the same moral boundaries against killing humans would apply.
Aliens. Are. Not. People.
It might be an easy moral leap to say the default status to be that any other sentient creature is equal morally speaking to humans. But it is just as valid to say that the default is that other sentient creatures, by virtue of not being human, are not morally equal to humans. They're just animals.
This is the basis for not treating animals on the same level of humans beyond just the difference in intelligence. Sure, some people today do not view animals as being sub-servient to humans and see them as equals. I don't hold those views at all but I can understand the logic behind their position. It is valid for them to hold such a view, even if I do not agree with it.
Likewise, it is valid to hold a view that aliens are the same as humans morally speaking. But it is equally valid to view them as not being equal to humans.
Moreover, the Tau are straight up a better option for humanity than the Imperium. They have more freedom and self-determination in that society than in the Imperium.
It sounds like you're starting with the idea of the Imperium being good because it's made of humans, than working backwards making up stuff to justify that.
Again, there is no unbiased evidence that humans under the T'au are better off. We have seen basically nothing one way or the other and only have the definitely not to be trusted source of a T'au saying "trust me bro". We haven't had a novel from the pov of a guevesa living in the T'au empire, we haven't even had any pov stories from normal T'au living in civilian areas.
But even if that were true. Even if it is true that Humans living under the T'au are better off in terms of base living conditions. It doesn't change the fact that its still genocide for the T'au to force humans to give up their culture, way of life, religion, etc... and embrace the Greater Good ideology. Remember, its not a free democratic society the T'au live in. Its a strictly controlled caste system. A prison cell is still a prison cell even if the bed is made of satin and the chains are gilded.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/08/16 07:40:18
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I am pretty sure there is lore from the perspective of Gue'vesa in which their quality of life is dramatically improved under the Tau Empire. I think it is in the Damocles gulf stuff from the 5th sphere expansion. Tau population density is much lower than many human worlds, and so far they have not annexed a large human hive world*. They are able to provide a high standard of living as a result.
Anyway, I agree that the Tau likely engage in at least some degree of cultural genocide. It is unclear to what extent, as they have displayed a surprising level of tolerance for the cultural practices of other species - see the tolerance of Kroot cannibalism and meat consumption in general as a prime example. IIRC, Tau are all vegetarian and really find Kroot practices uncomfortable, but they tolerate them.
Anyway, I don't think anyone was claiming the Tau are good, their empire is an imperialistic colonial warmachine that is very utilitarian in its philosophy. Only that they are generally better than the Imperium, which does appear to be true. In the same vein, I doubt few people would argue the Imperium is worse than Chaos forces, but that doesn't make the Imperium good either. Everyone is 40k is shades of black.
*Ref. the Kill Team novel, in which the Tau ambassador and their colleagues are shocked that Lieutenant Kage hails from a world where his home hive alone houses a billion people, with 13 such hives on the world. The Tau state that is more humans on one planet than Tau in the entire Sept they are in.
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
2023/08/16 17:13:42
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
Genocide that is "better" than another form of genocide is still genocide.
And we've never actually seen confirmation of humans living comfortable lives in the T'au empire. Only vague claims made by T'au ambassadors to Imperial humans. Potempkin Villages are a real possibility here.
It doesn't meet the requirements for genocide. We have third person omniscient accounts of the treatment of humans in Tau space, as well as Black Library narratives; it's not that bad (at least compared to the Imperium).
That isn't even a related point. Eldar attacking one objectively bad person doesn't excuse them from killing innocent people because of a farseer's visions of a possible future.
Its one thing to preemptively attack someone who is preparing/might be preparing to attack you, after all they have taken a hostile action from your point of view. But killing people because you think there is a possible future in which they take a hostile act basically requires you to exterminate everyone because of course there is always a possible future in which anyone can be a threat.
Abaddon's future was also "possible." But I noticed you're only saying it's bad when done to the Imperium - what's your logic here? The Imperium has crosses and the aesthetic of Euro-Christianity, therefore when they genocide people it's ok?
It might be an easy moral leap to say the default status to be that any other sentient creature is equal morally speaking to humans. But it is just as valid to say that the default is that other sentient creatures, by virtue of not being human, are not morally equal to humans. They're just animals.
It's not just as valid. Especially in 40k where it's implied that Eldar and humans are related via the genetic modifications of the Old Ones. But, regardless, you're stating a conclusion ("It's laudable to be cruel to non-human sentients") without supporting it.
This is the basis for not treating animals on the same level of humans beyond just the difference in intelligence. Sure, some people today do not view animals as being sub-servient to humans and see them as equals. I don't hold those views at all but I can understand the logic behind their position. It is valid for them to hold such a view, even if I do not agree with it.
Again, there is no unbiased evidence that humans under the T'au are better off. We have seen basically nothing one way or the other and only have the definitely not to be trusted source of a T'au saying "trust me bro". We haven't had a novel from the pov of a guevesa living in the T'au empire, we haven't even had any pov stories from normal T'au living in civilian areas.
But even if that were true. Even if it is true that Humans living under the T'au are better off in terms of base living conditions. It doesn't change the fact that its still genocide for the T'au to force humans to give up their culture, way of life, religion, etc... and embrace the Greater Good ideology. Remember, its not a free democratic society the T'au live in. Its a strictly controlled caste system. A prison cell is still a prison cell even if the bed is made of satin and the chains are gilded.
The Imperium is even *less* free, and demands that anyone who doesn't worship the emperor change or die. Nobody is arguing that the Tau empire is all carebears and rainbows, just that it's morally superior to the Imperium, which it clearly is.
2023/08/16 17:59:49
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
Gert wrote: Black Templars are a red flag faction because they are often associated with less desirable elements of the Warhammer fanbase such as homophobes, transphobes, racists and sexists.
The kind of person who will see a rainbow Space Marine, say "Heresy!" and post a really bad meme about burning heretics but also genuinely post hate speech at the same time and declare they're "Keeping politics out of the hobby".
It's a sad association but Templars suffer more than most from being a faction where utter morons don't see the obvious "You should not idolise these people" banner despite GW actually doing a relatively consistent job in portraying the Templars as raving lunatics.
That takes me back. When I first started 40k I wanted to make a black templar army. I loved the knight theme and the black and white scheme, but the store and some friends steered me away for the reasons you stated, and I am glad they did because a lot of the BT players in the area turned out to be very hateful, and in some cases proud neo-nazi's.
I would absolutely not call someone collecting black templars a "red flag" in a vacuum because the internet is not real life and is not 40k sales by any stretch of the imagination. I'm sure 95% of black templar sales come from the idea of knight with sword cool.
...but yeah, there is a dude that plays at another store in my local area whose painting posts I always see and go "hmm. german iron cross flag and military medal hanging on your wall behind the models youre painting" "Your 40k armies are DKOK, Black Templars, and Custodes" "playing hearts of iron 4 about 7 hours a day" "Oh, another painted model and it looks like you've got a world war 2 german propaganda poster on your wall too"...
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2023/08/16 18:25:04
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
I would absolutely not call someone collecting black templars a "red flag" in a vacuum because the internet is not real life and is not 40k sales by any stretch of the imagination. I'm sure 95% of black templar sales come from the idea of knight with sword cool.
...but yeah, there is a dude that plays at another store in my local area whose painting posts I always see and go "hmm. german iron cross flag and military medal hanging on your wall behind the models youre painting" "Your 40k armies are DKOK, Black Templars, and Custodes" "playing hearts of iron 4 about 7 hours a day" "Oh, another painted model and it looks like you've got a world war 2 german propaganda poster on your wall too"...
Sounds like a wehraboo nerd to me more than a fascist mostly due to the HOI IV 7 hours a day part. That remind sme of one of my gunners who is copy pasta of this and he is mostly that, a wehraboo nerd who likes to look edgy to piss people off.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/08/16 18:26:34
40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.
"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably.
2023/08/16 21:30:02
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
Honestly, when and how did standing up to Faschists and teenage D-Bags who think Hitler had good points too, and have posters of Tucker Carlson, become, why are you being such a hostile jerk? Because this. This exact thing. "They're not racists, everyone else is." BS. Have the courage of your convictions to say what you believe. And no, it's NEVER wrong to call out and call down Nazi's, KKK, or anyone on that Spectrum. Just think, what would Indiana Jones do?
2023/08/17 00:05:08
Subject: Thematically, what is the point of the Black Templars?
Well to me the black templar are one of the rarely sensible Spacemarine chapters. Their endless crusades means that they are always dispersed throughout the imperium getting gak done.
The secularisation between champion and command means that their best warrior is not burdened by the responsibilities of command, and can focus on bringing down the enemy's most formidible fighters whilst their commander can focus on how to best to position and compose their forces so that they have the most chances of sucsess in charging the enemy and hacking then to bits.
Neophytes as basic infantry might seem brutal but it really makes more sense than entrusting vital reconnaissance missions to untested intitates. Which is just stupid.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/08/17 00:11:42
Genocide that is "better" than another form of genocide is still genocide.
And we've never actually seen confirmation of humans living comfortable lives in the T'au empire. Only vague claims made by T'au ambassadors to Imperial humans. Potempkin Villages are a real possibility here.
It doesn't meet the requirements for genocide. We have third person omniscient accounts of the treatment of humans in Tau space, as well as Black Library narratives; it's not that bad (at least compared to the Imperium).
Yes it does.
Spoiler:
Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people[a] in whole or in part. In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly.
Any action which is intended to destroy a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group is Genocide.
This can be accomplished by killing, but it is not the only way. You can brainwash individuals, prevent them from passing their culture, way of life, etc... onto the next generations. This latter is what the T'au are doing to the different species who join them. They deliberately attempt to erase their prior political, social, and cultural identities and turn them into good little citizens of the Greater Good.
Just because they are "nice" while doing it doesn't change that it is genocide.
That isn't even a related point. Eldar attacking one objectively bad person doesn't excuse them from killing innocent people because of a farseer's visions of a possible future.
Its one thing to preemptively attack someone who is preparing/might be preparing to attack you, after all they have taken a hostile action from your point of view. But killing people because you think there is a possible future in which they take a hostile act basically requires you to exterminate everyone because of course there is always a possible future in which anyone can be a threat.
Abaddon's future was also "possible." But I noticed you're only saying it's bad when done to the Imperium - what's your logic here? The Imperium has crosses and the aesthetic of Euro-Christianity, therefore when they genocide people it's ok?
Don't misrepresent what I said. I never said the Imperium were 'good' guys. Everybody in 40k is bad. But they are my chosen protagonists so I'll root for them above all else, if for nothing other than they are the only reason humanity isn't extinct.
It might be an easy moral leap to say the default status to be that any other sentient creature is equal morally speaking to humans. But it is just as valid to say that the default is that other sentient creatures, by virtue of not being human, are not morally equal to humans. They're just animals.
It's not just as valid. Especially in 40k where it's implied that Eldar and humans are related via the genetic modifications of the Old Ones. But, regardless, you're stating a conclusion ("It's laudable to be cruel to non-human sentients") without supporting it.
No, the conclusion is that since non-human sentient creatures are not human it is not automatically morally wrong to be cruel to them or even wipe them out. Its not automatically a good thing either. Its just a thing. Possibly even a necessary thing.
But again, my point was everybody in 40k is evil from everyone elses pov.
This is the basis for not treating animals on the same level of humans beyond just the difference in intelligence. Sure, some people today do not view animals as being sub-servient to humans and see them as equals. I don't hold those views at all but I can understand the logic behind their position. It is valid for them to hold such a view, even if I do not agree with it.
No, intelligence has a lot to do with it.
Yes, but not everybody sees it that way. There are some very militant animal rights people out there. Or just some religious beliefs where there is no line drawn between humans and animals. They are a minority for a reason, but it is still a thing.
The same reasons you can justify this is the same logic that might lead someone to not classify aliens as having the same moral equivalence to humans as we do with each other.
Again, there is no unbiased evidence that humans under the T'au are better off. We have seen basically nothing one way or the other and only have the definitely not to be trusted source of a T'au saying "trust me bro". We haven't had a novel from the pov of a guevesa living in the T'au empire, we haven't even had any pov stories from normal T'au living in civilian areas.
But even if that were true. Even if it is true that Humans living under the T'au are better off in terms of base living conditions. It doesn't change the fact that its still genocide for the T'au to force humans to give up their culture, way of life, religion, etc... and embrace the Greater Good ideology. Remember, its not a free democratic society the T'au live in. Its a strictly controlled caste system. A prison cell is still a prison cell even if the bed is made of satin and the chains are gilded.
The Imperium is even *less* free, and demands that anyone who doesn't worship the emperor change or die. Nobody is arguing that the Tau empire is all carebears and rainbows, just that it's morally superior to the Imperium, which it clearly is.
Is it? Some parts of it for sure. Others not so much. My personal view is that insidious plans hidden under a guise of good intentions are far worse than something which is honest about how bad it is.
T'au are still bad and evil by our modern standards. Imperium is bad and evil by modern standards too.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
