Recently on a local store Discord the father of a potential new player asked for help.
He started with the question, "my son wants to play 40k. Do I need a full large army or can I buy one box of models
for him to play with?"
Side note - his dad was not a gamer in any fashion, and his son was apparently about 12.
And I do not currently play 40K, but I do heavily game within some of GW's other systems.
I made a few suggestions, including one of the Leviathan type less expenses boxes so they could begin to learn the rules slowly, if the boy was
keen on marines or nids.
But he received several joke comments (in the 40K forum) and the lot of unhelpful advice in my eyes.
And I'm wondering here within the Dakka Community, is the current edition of 40K insanely hard to get into?
The guy just stopped posting, and we likely lost a future gamer to a different hobby.
This hit me kind of hard, as my son and I grew up wargaming together and its still really big and good for us.
New players are buying Spearhead / Vanguard boxes locally for an upcoming Age of Sigmar Spearhead monthly events.
But no one mentioned Combat Patrol to this gentlemen, and no one plays it.
How would you of helped this guy? or, is it a serious hindering issue with the current releases and rule sets?
GW has designed the current edition, to various degrees of success, to be easy to get into with easy to build and paint models and simplified rules. Many would say it has become too easy but I digress.
I think the big issue is that the competitive mindset is too entrenched in the 40k community and that often scares away a lot of new players who can't get into that mind set. AoS is still a relatively new game so the competitive nature has yet to fully set in allowing for the spearhead stuff to work a lot better then Combat Patrol.
I also know of plenty of Spearhead events happening near me but there is nothing for Combat Patrol as all to 40k players tend towards competitive play.
It depends on the interest of the son and the local gaming scene.
If it is just "play in the 40k universe" and there are players available for it, then Necromunda, Kill Team or Combat Patrol are options where a single purchase will be enough for a long time to have fun.
If the son wants to play the actual army sized 40k, then I would recommend a box with fitting content like Combat Patrol, Leviathan or Christmas boxes (whatever is available at the time). Especially the starter armies each edition can be bought on ebay for quite cheap.
Then there is https://hachettepartworks.com/en-en/warhammer-40000-imperium/ which is a weekly(?) magazine where you slowly build two complete armies over time including paints, brushes and everything. I'm not up to date with it, but I thought I saw them switching their content to basically making all the Combat Patrol boxes?
This is where, in the UK at least, GW Stores really come into it, as they’re well set up to run intros and beginners sessions to show the ropes.
In the US? FLGS should be offering much the same I’d imagine.
For mainline 40K, Combat Patrol is your friend. It’s there as the comparatively low cost entry route, and potentially a “one and done” purchase if you don’t get on with them game, but a stable launch pad for more models if you do.
Honestly, if the boy is 12, he could probably get a box of easy to paint space marines, and use them as an entry to modelling kits (with parental supervision and assistance) and then just use them as toys initially. Dont worry about the game at first.
That would probably be a good place to start.
If he enjoys building, painting with them then maybe get a reinforcement box, perhaps a combat patrol after a month or two. That would be my recommendation.
Kids say they want things, and sometimes they really do. Other times expectations and reality don't match and they sit forgotten and unopened on the shelf. That's why you start small.
"local store Discord". That might have been the problem. Most people there are grouped up, and are probably only posting to scorie points off each other, hence the joke comments. The comments there were nothing to do with the question the father asked.
Places like Dakka are more 'spread out', and we have less to gain from our posts.
The store should have pointed them to the GW website, and the 'Getting Started' pages they have on there. But that might lead to them buying directly from GW, not from the store.
But if they are to be playing in the store, the store's own meta affects the conversation. If no-one there plays anything less than 2000 points for instance, that's what the father will be told to buy.
As has been said here, what does the son want from the hobby? Modelling, painting, gaming, or just an entry into the wider hobby? Until he is introduced to the game, he is unlikely to know. Nor which army he'll prefer.
Again, the website will present that. Maybe not in a way that he'll get straight away, but he'll have some idea of what he is looking at when taken to the store, or given a box.
If he knows some of it already, how did he come to it? Video games, friends talking about it, White Dwarf in the magazine rack? Knowing that will help decide where to start.
As for the Discord, most groups appear to be cliquey Boys Clubs, best avoided.
Using Discord tends to lead to people acting like gremlins because there's not really any repercussions. Doing things like that in person are better, especially when you're a kid looking to get into something new.
As someone said above, 10th is kind of designed to be fairly straightforward and easy to pick up at a base level. But also, Kill Team is a fairly good way of gauging interest in the 40k universe as it's far less of a financial investment.
Otherwise, my recommendation for beginners is buy a box of basic infantry you like the look of, and if you want to push the boat out you can pick up a character and a vehicle. That gets you an experience of most of the basic rules, and means that they get a little army to play with rather than just a handful of guys.
Not gonna lie, as a dad, I think 12 is a little young for the themes of 40k as a whole. Not judging the parent, but maybe AOS would be a far easier jumping off point? Less competitive, easier to start, etc?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Not gonna lie, as a dad, I think 12 is a little young for the themes of 40k as a whole. Not judging the parent, but maybe AOS would be a far easier jumping off point? Less competitive, easier to start, etc?
Kids younger than 12 have been playing with G.I. Joes for a while, 40k is the same kind of deal. They won't automatically learn about the real fethed up stuff like the daemonculaba & co. unless you teach it to them. At a surface level, 40k is really sanitized
Yeah, but GI Joe dolls don't Literally promote Fachistic ideals as positive heroic aspects. Think about when you were 12? I bet you weren't solving middle east Peace problems.
There is some extremely heavy stuff in 40k that a 12 year old person MIGHT not be mature enough to deal with. And im not talking Slanesh the the NC17 stuff. But if its illegal to knowingly show a child R rated content, then surely 40k falls under "Parental Guidance required".
If a store is going to run its own Discord, someone representing the store really needs to be paying attention to flip moments like that into opportunities to sell the store. Invite the dad and son in, talk to them in person, etc.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Yeah, but GI Joe dolls don't Literally promote Fachistic ideals as positive heroic aspects. Think about when you were 12? I bet you weren't solving middle east Peace problems.
There is some extremely heavy stuff in 40k that a 12 year old person MIGHT not be mature enough to deal with. And im not talking Slanesh the the NC17 stuff. But if its illegal to knowingly show a child R rated content, then surely 40k falls under "Parental Guidance required".
Hard disagree, 40k as a game is perfectly fine for a child.
Now the lore behind the game, thats another story.
Assembling/Painting/Moving little plastic toys is not promotic any Fachistic ideals
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Yeah, but GI Joe dolls don't Literally promote Fachistic ideals as positive heroic aspects. Think about when you were 12? I bet you weren't solving middle east Peace problems.
There is some extremely heavy stuff in 40k that a 12 year old person MIGHT not be mature enough to deal with. And im not talking Slanesh the the NC17 stuff. But if its illegal to knowingly show a child R rated content, then surely 40k falls under "Parental Guidance required".
I started buying GW minis when I was 9 or 10. I was not paying attention to any of the adult themes of 40k (excluding the war, obviously), and just thought that Orks were cool toy soldiers that I got to build and paint. It was only after a year or two passed and I started buying the novels as well that I actually started noticing the other adult themes.
Younger kids are generally getting into 40k because it's a more grown-up version of playing with little green army men.
Also, GW aren't promoting fascist ideals as a positive thing. They've made it abundantly clear that there's no good guys in 40k.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Yeah, but GI Joe dolls don't Literally promote Fachistic ideals as positive heroic aspects. Think about when you were 12? I bet you weren't solving middle east Peace problems.
There is some extremely heavy stuff in 40k that a 12 year old person MIGHT not be mature enough to deal with. And im not talking Slanesh the the NC17 stuff. But if its illegal to knowingly show a child R rated content, then surely 40k falls under "Parental Guidance required".
I watched the Stephen King movie "Carrie" at age four.
I played my first game of D&D in grade 3.
Book reports on horror novels were pretty normal for me.
What kids can or cannot handle depends on the style of parenting employed by the parent. Some parents allow their children to experience the world WITH them; others choose to set rules for kids within which they explore the world with less one-to-one support, and in these cases, the rules will vary in scope and strictness of adherence based on the beliefs of the parent.
I've used 4ok to teach basic literacy and numeracy skills to kids as young as 8 years old.
If a kid's mind is going to be threatened by exposure to 40k, I think there are probably parental issues behind that. And yes, parenting is hard, and if parents don't have time to experience the hobby side by side with their kids, and as a result decide to shelter the kid from instead, then that's probably the right choice for that family... But expecting that everyone could or should fit that mold is a bit much.
Kids can be a lot smarter and more mature than they are made out to be when they are given the support of parents who are interested in helping them explore the world on their own terms.
LunarSol wrote:If a store is going to run its own Discord, someone representing the store really needs to be paying attention to flip moments like that into opportunities to sell the store. Invite the dad and son in, talk to them in person, etc.
My thoughts exactly. If there's a store Discord but nobody employed by the store is on it, that's a problem. If someone employed by the store is on it and didn't jump in as this was happening, that's a problem too. This is the perfect moment to grab potentially two new customers with just a little bit of thought and customer service. Even if the dad doesn't play, you could still encourage them to buy a bit more painting or modelling stuff so they can join in with their son.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Yeah, but GI Joe dolls don't Literally promote Fachistic ideals as positive heroic aspects. Think about when you were 12? I bet you weren't solving middle east Peace problems.
There is some extremely heavy stuff in 40k that a 12 year old person MIGHT not be mature enough to deal with. And im not talking Slanesh the the NC17 stuff. But if its illegal to knowingly show a child R rated content, then surely 40k falls under "Parental Guidance required".
I don't think a 12 year old is really going to grasp the nuances of the 40k setting in any way that's going to be problematic. They'll likely think whatever army they gravitate towards is cool, and that's about it. I was aware of 40k by 12 and the finer details of the political messaging of the setting went completely over my head. That said, it was still pretty obvious the Imperium was not an example of a utopian future.
This is why you’d think any FLGS would have some kind of beginners events to invite people to.
Doesn’t have to be terribly in depth, just the basic Move/Shoot/Fight and overall turn structure.
Not only does it suggest/pretend you care about your customers, but it can help them meet peers at a similar point in the hobby journey, and set them up with opponents once the basics are grasped.
I’m probably just being a grumpy old fart, but “go to our Discord” just isn’t the same, and reads to me as “I don’t want to talk to you”.
And I'm wondering here within the Dakka Community, is the current edition of 40K insanely hard to get into?
How would you of helped this guy? or, is it a serious hindering issue with the current releases and rule sets?
looking forward to your thoughts.
It depends is the quick and dirty answer. Are you talking about 'kitchen table hammer', or 'super serious ruthless cutthroat tourney-hammer with all the shorthand terminology lobbed at them like a mortar? 40k is whatever you want it to be.
40k doesn't have to be hard to get into but I think advice given, especially by gamers to non-gamers, can often be impenetrable and the people giving it can come across as way too intense and not in a good way. When I bought bloodbowl for my wife after she saw it at warhammer world (yup, the football link was what grabbed her) and walking through the first game for example, when I mentioned a 'four plus' she looked at me like I had two heads- even the language we are so used to in the was alien to her. I'd also add I've met plenty gamers that can be.. problematic on a variety of fronts. Finding a good community/group should be seen as the foundational element, not what game you play or how you play it.
Honestly to help the guy, I'd ask to meet in person rather than over a screen. Easier to engage when you're all real people. I'd point to kill team as a starter. Fantastic game in its own right with a small up.front investment and can be used as a building block for the mass battle game if you so wish. Imo its one of gw's best offerings in a long time. And the price/time investment is an easier sell. Sell the game/hobby, but do it in a way that's accessible and isn't likely to frighten them off. It's good that there's a hobby element, a reading element and it's not screen based etc. Demos are a thing but really, last thing on my mind on a first meeting.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Yeah, but GI Joe dolls don't Literally promote Fachistic ideals as positive heroic aspects. Think about when you were 12? I bet you weren't solving middle east Peace problems.
There is some extremely heavy stuff in 40k that a 12 year old person MIGHT not be mature enough to deal with. And im not talking Slanesh the the NC17 stuff. But if its illegal to knowingly show a child R rated content, then surely 40k falls under "Parental Guidance required".
My dad's father took him to see The Deer Hunter as a kid. This seems kind of puritanical, in my opinion.
The idea that 40k is going to upset a 12 year old is kind of mindboggling to me. I got my first miniatures when I was 8 or 9 years old.
For someone genuinely starting out, I'd buy one of those 5-6 paints and 3 Marines kits. See if they like painting. Then assuming its not a complete flash in the pan, buy another kit of a faction they liked the look of. The main driver I suspect is having friends who are also into the hobby - or get into it together.
The body-horror of Ad Mech, the gore and gruesomeness of Tyranids, the fascism of the entire Imperium. Until the child/teen starts reading the lore, these things will be presented. But until then, 40k is a table of models, some maths, and a universe to share with others.
A friend of mine started with his father at maybe 8, accompanying when games were held at his place. He knew only the bare basics of the lore and simply enjoyed throwing dice and seeing minis.
I suppose that will obviously need to be seen individually whether that'd be bad for the child, but to him, and I assume to many of them, it'll look like what it is at the core: space fantasy. With space knights fighting aliens alongside space peasant levies while said alien do magic and have fantasy demons spat randomly. With fantasy not being particularly dangerous to children as far as I am aware, I suppose the same would be of 40k.
I mean, Star Wars with its "cool" Stormtroopers and people getting cut in half with Light sabres is in every Kindergarten nowadays, so being worried about 40K at age 12(!) is kind of... dispatched from reality?
To add to OPs question: I'd say 10th is more accessible than most prior editions (8th and 3rd might be on par), online Support helps a lot compared to earlier times.
Would I encourage 40K as a starting point? Probably not, depends on why the son chose it specifically. If it's about the Wargaming hobby more than 40K I'd suggest other games.
Well you've been told about a few parents who let the kids see movies that were arguably more problematic, so essentially, you're calling RaptorousRex's grandpa and my mom bad parents.
You'll recall that my first response to you was polite, but this time, I think I'll not so kindly ask you removed - rule #1 please.
Whether or not someone is a good parent is a lot more complicated than what movies we let kids watch and what games we let them play. Often, it's more about the "how" than the "what" - see my previous post about using 40k to teach literacy and numeracy.
Have an exalt PenitentJake.
I'm really starting to wonder if Fezzik is just on here to annoy others and generally be a troll. if you don't like the game don't play it. All my kids starting playing around 8 years old and are perfectly well adjusted. All of us enjoy reading the lore and understand it for what it is, fiction. As for Star Wars as far as I understand most kids have seen it and think Stormtroopers are cool because they look it, lightsabers cutting people in half doesn't register as violent to them as it's, wait for it, fiction!
My parents let me watch The Young Ones, Filthy, Rich and Catflap and Bottom. Not to mention various horror films, Star Wars and so on as a nipper. I was reading horror novels, ghost stories, 2000ad, The Beano and The Dandy.
And now I’m a fairly left wing goon with a solid career in the financial sector.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: This is why you’d think any FLGS would have some kind of beginners events to invite people to.
This is one of the reasons I refuse to use the "FLGS" acronym as a catch-all, going with "independents" instead.
Doesn’t have to be terribly in depth, just the basic Move/Shoot/Fight and overall turn structure.
Not only does it suggest/pretend you care about your customers, but it can help them meet peers at a similar point in the hobby journey, and set them up with opponents once the basics are grasped.
I’m probably just being a grumpy old fart, but “go to our Discord” just isn’t the same, and reads to me as “I don’t want to talk to you”.
I agree with you for the most part, but I think it important to note that a lot of times these aren't "official" store Discords. They're run by members of the local gaming groups, for better or worse.
I know my local indie that I like has posters advertising a Discord, Facebook Group, and honest to god group-text that's all just for various games...but it's not run by the shop!
Warhammer 40,000 is better introduced through a game like Space Hulk or Space Crusade. Something that is simple in both game and contents to get up and running with minimal fuss.
The only other way I can think of is for GW to make a 40K version of Underworlds. It would be an instant success and a much easier way to draw in not only youngsters visiting a Warhammer store with their parents, but would also bring in those who simply find the 40K wargame too much hassle.
Popped in this afternoon with my son and we e been making our way through the Skaventide Box and he’s yet to play a game. We were chatting with one of the staff (I believe this name was Evan and I’m annoyed I didn’t ask for it so apologies) about paint scheme as he was painting the spearhead set for public. Anyway my son was really keen to have a go and get his head round it and Evan spent 90 mins going through and full turn for both the skaven and stormcast. Plus explaining everything including acting out some awesome explanations abilities. My son loved it. Really got his head round the game and came home with a renewed energy for finishing the Skaven. So thanks Evan for your time and attention you really did outstanding work.
So while they'd already bought the box, the staff member did put some effort it.
SamusDrake wrote: Warhammer 40,000 is better introduced through a game like Space Hulk or Space Crusade. Something that is simple in both game and contents to get up and running with minimal fuss.
The only other way I can think of is for GW to make a 40K version of Underworlds. It would be an instant success and a much easier way to draw in not only youngsters visiting a Warhammer store with their parents, but would also bring in those who simply find the 40K wargame too much hassle.
Blackstone Fortress was really cool.
I do hope we get another one someday- the weirdos from BSF had a huge impact on the game- like the Technoarcheolist, Pious Vorne and Taddeus, and now Navigators coming on as a generic Agent. The Rogue Traders are all still around, though only the generic profile (represented by either of the three) is an official card, but they're still around, providing HQ for Naval units.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Not gonna lie, as a dad, I think 12 is a little young for the themes of 40k as a whole. Not judging the parent, but maybe AOS would be a far easier jumping off point? Less competitive, easier to start, etc?
12 is basically almost the prime age for many people on Dakka who got into Warhammer
I think its important to note that a LOT of the lore and the dark bits of it get over-hyped by fans who fixate on concepts. Kids just see cool models. Chances are there's more violence in most TV and video games than they'll be exposed too through GW models and product art.
Also it wouldn't surprise me if you were to do the same poll in say 10 years or so; if you'd actually see the entry age go down as more people got into it younger through their parents hobby.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Not gonna lie, as a dad, I think 12 is a little young for the themes of 40k as a whole. Not judging the parent, but maybe AOS would be a far easier jumping off point? Less competitive, easier to start, etc?
I think was tends to get forgotten a lot is that many themes like that tend to go over kids heads, but 12 is plenty old enough to get it. I started at 10 and could easily tell that the Imperium weren't good guys. I started a homebrew chapter of non-Chaos renegades that were fighting to try and carve out a little peaceful empire in a small corner corner of the galaxy.
My kids now all play, they are 8, 6, and 4 and it's a great bonding experience for us, they love building and painting the models and playing simple 500pt games. They don't need to understand all the existential dread of the setting to have a good time hobbying as a family.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Not gonna lie, as a dad, I think 12 is a little young for the themes of 40k as a whole. Not judging the parent, but maybe AOS would be a far easier jumping off point? Less competitive, easier to start, etc?
I think was tends to get forgotten a lot is that many themes like that tend to go over kids heads, but 12 is plenty old enough to get it. I started at 10 and could easily tell that the Imperium weren't good guys. I started a homebrew chapter of non-Chaos renegades that were fighting to try and carve out a little peaceful empire in a small corner corner of the galaxy.
My kids now all play, they are 8, 6, and 4 and it's a great bonding experience for us, they love building and painting the models and playing simple 500pt games. They don't need to understand all the existential dread of the setting to have a good time hobbying as a family.
I love this. My son started actual Warhammer w/ me at about the age of 11and it was an amazing part of our life. Now we still play miniature games decades later together.
Back to my post, this was indeed a store server. And my friend, very well versed in 40K rules who has demo'd for kids and families in the past, he missed the conversation. Because my game club is mostly AOS and Heresy 30K, no one else was able to step up to offer actual in - person time.
I don't know the outcome of this -- it is possible an employee PM'd the dad and helped them, met at the shop and got some things rolling. Or he came in and they did. Who knows.
But this thread has been quite illuminating, even if the topic took a direction I was not expecting.
Were I able to sit down with them for a duration of time, I would encourage helping the lad buy a box of his favorite looking squad (10 models preferably), show them how to use One Page Rules, and get the kiddo painting and bonding with his pops with some simple kitchen table skirmishes. Hopefully, if he was as enamored with the models as my son was at 11, he'll return to it quickly via another person even if the store staff dropped the ball.
KingGarland wrote: GW has designed the current edition, to various degrees of success, to be easy to get into with easy to build and paint models and simplified rules. Many would say it has become too easy but I digress.
I think the big issue is that the competitive mindset is too entrenched in the 40k community and that often scares away a lot of new players who can't get into that mind set. AoS is still a relatively new game so the competitive nature has yet to fully set in allowing for the spearhead stuff to work a lot better then Combat Patrol.
I also know of plenty of Spearhead events happening near me but there is nothing for Combat Patrol as all to 40k players tend towards competitive play.
I think the big issue is that the internet allows people to be - lets call it: Antisocial. Its one thing to make a wisecrack, then give the good advice and explain why it was a wisecrack. This isn't limited to 40K. Its just another variation on the Alt+F4 "joke".
40K (as a Girm Dark setting that imports various historical factions and movie monsters as a fictional group) is a video game. Several of them. I'd say most of the more "grim dark" aspects of the setting come from the Black Library than the rule books (though it gets more muddled in the "evil" faction codices). The rulebooks have the big picture dystopia, but not the futility of running away from a lictor behind enemy lines. The models don't move, but some of them do have skulls on spikes coming out of other skulls on spikes. Others have a "nun" in a form fitting breastplate and high heeled battle boots. I haven't seen any Slaaneshi daemons lately, so there may or may not be some bare plastic boobs around. 12 doesn't feel too far off the entry age.
Eh no one really cares about plastic boobs. I think the only one left in the model range right now that I can think of is the one on the bloodwrack medusa and no one ever mentions it.
They only ever think of Slaanesh, who are all covered up (esp now that they retired the old Forgeworld Greater Demon model). The only exposed boobs they've got are on the older seeker models and as they are animals they kind of get away with it.
I do hope we get another one someday- the weirdos from BSF had a huge impact on the game- like the Technoarcheolist, Pious Vorne and Taddeus, and now Navigators coming on as a generic Agent. The Rogue Traders are all still around, though only the generic profile (represented by either of the three) is an official card, but they're still around, providing HQ for Naval units.
Its actually my favourite 40K game. I wasn't that keen on the emphasis on the Chaos marine theme at first, but The Dreaded Ambull balanced it out. And the inclusion of WD rules for a Harlequin Solitaire sealed the deal!
I do hope we get another one someday- the weirdos from BSF had a huge impact on the game- like the Technoarcheolist, Pious Vorne and Taddeus, and now Navigators coming on as a generic Agent. The Rogue Traders are all still around, though only the generic profile (represented by either of the three) is an official card, but they're still around, providing HQ for Naval units.
Its actually my favourite 40K game. I wasn't that keen on the emphasis on the Chaos marine theme at first, but The Dreaded Ambull balanced it out. And the inclusion of WD rules for a Harlequin Solitaire sealed the deal!
I was all about the Zoat. I missed the Ambull first time around and got lucky with Combat Arena- my Wych Cult Beast Master is going to tame that Ambull someday, and bring it home to the arena in Commorragh.
Also really liked the WD with the Jokaero in it. I think it was 452, but I could be wrong.
SamusDrake wrote: Topic for another thread, really, but Zoats are friggin cool and in hindsight sad I didn't get as many BSF expansions as I'd have liked.
GW keeps teasing us with Codex Zoats each christmas!! ONE YEAR I hope we get it for real
it may take years. it may take decades. but one of these days they're going to post, the day after, the "No Actually This Time" article, and it will be great
Well its been 30-40 years and they keep rolling out Exodites lore and even a video so.. one day ONE DAY they might actually make a model (besides the 1 bright stallion in old epic)
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Not gonna lie, as a dad, I think 12 is a little young for the themes of 40k as a whole. Not judging the parent, but maybe AOS would be a far easier jumping off point? Less competitive, easier to start, etc?
I think was tends to get forgotten a lot is that many themes like that tend to go over kids heads, but 12 is plenty old enough to get it. I started at 10 and could easily tell that the Imperium weren't good guys. I started a homebrew chapter of non-Chaos renegades that were fighting to try and carve out a little peaceful empire in a small corner corner of the galaxy.
My kids now all play, they are 8, 6, and 4 and it's a great bonding experience for us, they love building and painting the models and playing simple 500pt games. They don't need to understand all the existential dread of the setting to have a good time hobbying as a family.
Honest question and I don’t even think it's OP:
My daughter is 4 - how do you introduce her into the game? I mean she watched me painting my minis and playing with my buddies and is definitely interested (like the little ones' usually are about everything ). But personally I wouldn't know where to start as 4 is still very young. I think it'd come down to me playing and she'd just throw the dice which of course is also something I guess.
What I'm asking is if your 4 old is actually playing on their own or rather supporting.
granted, not a parent, but i would imagine that at that age, the painting experience would be the main thing to focus on. you don't really need to get into the lore or background until they're older. for now it can just be those cool colorful toys that dad paints
GW does have a line of young fiction. Probably a bit too young to read it independently, but you could read it to her. I'd pre-read it first just to be sure.
The games that let you control a single mini- BSF, Cursed City, or the 3rd Party store games like Combat Arena, Tyranid Attack, etc. would be easy, because there's only one mini to think about.
You can grow from a single model game to something like Kill Team or Warcry.
PenitentJake wrote: GW does have a line of young fiction. Probably a bit too young to read it independently, but you could read it to her. I'd pre-read it first just to be sure.
It annoys me greatly that a tiny minority of people sent so much hate to the authors of those books!
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Not gonna lie, as a dad, I think 12 is a little young for the themes of 40k as a whole. Not judging the parent, but maybe AOS would be a far easier jumping off point? Less competitive, easier to start, etc?
I think was tends to get forgotten a lot is that many themes like that tend to go over kids heads, but 12 is plenty old enough to get it. I started at 10 and could easily tell that the Imperium weren't good guys. I started a homebrew chapter of non-Chaos renegades that were fighting to try and carve out a little peaceful empire in a small corner corner of the galaxy.
My kids now all play, they are 8, 6, and 4 and it's a great bonding experience for us, they love building and painting the models and playing simple 500pt games. They don't need to understand all the existential dread of the setting to have a good time hobbying as a family.
Honest question and I don’t even think it's OP:
My daughter is 4 - how do you introduce her into the game? I mean she watched me painting my minis and playing with my buddies and is definitely interested (like the little ones' usually are about everything ). But personally I wouldn't know where to start as 4 is still very young. I think it'd come down to me playing and she'd just throw the dice which of course is also something I guess.
What I'm asking is if your 4 old is actually playing on their own or rather supporting.
When my son was about 6 we started with Star Wars micro machines, a chipped wooden ruler, and a single six sided die. His stormtroopers hit on a 3+, my little guys hit on 5+. He ran the imperials and we had a campaign of sorts going as we developed the story of his leader on a side of paper. Good times. I think that really laid the ground work, then, Mage Knight clix came out a few years later, and he and I went bonkers.
PenitentJake wrote: GW does have a line of young fiction. Probably a bit too young to read it independently, but you could read it to her. I'd pre-read it first just to be sure.
It annoys me greatly that a tiny minority of people sent so much hate to the authors of those books!
I got recommended a video on that the other day that looked sus, I fear the algorithm so didn’t click it.
But that is still crazy people take it that far, makes me sad.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Not gonna lie, as a dad, I think 12 is a little young for the themes of 40k as a whole. Not judging the parent, but maybe AOS would be a far easier jumping off point? Less competitive, easier to start, etc?
I think was tends to get forgotten a lot is that many themes like that tend to go over kids heads, but 12 is plenty old enough to get it. I started at 10 and could easily tell that the Imperium weren't good guys. I started a homebrew chapter of non-Chaos renegades that were fighting to try and carve out a little peaceful empire in a small corner corner of the galaxy.
My kids now all play, they are 8, 6, and 4 and it's a great bonding experience for us, they love building and painting the models and playing simple 500pt games. They don't need to understand all the existential dread of the setting to have a good time hobbying as a family.
Honest question and I don’t even think it's OT:
My daughter is 4 - how do you introduce her into the game? I mean she watched me painting my minis and playing with my buddies and is definitely interested (like the little ones' usually are about everything ). But personally I wouldn't know where to start as 4 is still very young. I think it'd come down to me playing and she'd just throw the dice which of course is also something I guess.
What I'm asking is if your 4 old is actually playing on their own or rather supporting.
When my son was about 6 we started with Star Wars micro machines, a chipped wooden ruler, and a single six sided die. His stormtroopers hit on a 3+, my little guys hit on 5+. He ran the imperials and we had a campaign of sorts going as we developed the story of his leader on a side of paper. Good times. I think that really laid the ground work, then, Mage Knight clix came out a few years later, and he and I went bonkers.
Yeah, I think Star Trek Attack Wing and lotr of my collection are the games I'd probably prefer for starting the hobby as they're more approachable than 40K and can scale with literally one model per side.
PenitentJake wrote: GW does have a line of young fiction. Probably a bit too young to read it independently, but you could read it to her. I'd pre-read it first just to be sure.
It annoys me greatly that a tiny minority of people sent so much hate to the authors of those books!
I got recommended a video on that the other day that looked sus, I fear the algorithm so didn’t click it.
But that is still crazy people take it that far, makes me sad.
Agreed. I'm in the position where these books are probably the most interesting BL products, as they're an introduction to the hobby. Some fellow hobbyists love to gatekeep to the extreme, overlooking the inconcistency of other existing fluff.
Honest question and I don’t even think it's OP:
My daughter is 4 - how do you introduce her into the game? I mean she watched me painting my minis and playing with my buddies and is definitely interested (like the little ones' usually are about everything ). But personally I wouldn't know where to start as 4 is still very young. I think it'd come down to me playing and she'd just throw the dice which of course is also something I guess.
What I'm asking is if your 4 old is actually playing on their own or rather supporting.
She could throw the dice sure, but you could also explain the choices you would prefer a unit to perform (move into this building and shoot the red guys with axes OR move across this space and charge and blow up this rhino tank) and let her make the decisions on which option to take. You move the figs if she struggles with that.
You might lose the games sure, but you could show her how to lose gracefully. Get her mind thinking tactically at a young age and you never know how far she'll take it. I did much the same with my son when he was five. We started with FoW, he painted his entire first 40k army (blood drinkers) and played in his first 40k tourney at 9. I went as a chaperone, not as an ally or partner or advice giver. He went 2-1 and took home 3rd place.
He is 23 now and is a beast to play against. At 4 there mind soaks stuff up. If she is interested, I would take the shot just for the bonding moments. She may grow out of the hobby, but she wont forget the time you spent with her.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Not gonna lie, as a dad, I think 12 is a little young for the themes of 40k as a whole. Not judging the parent, but maybe AOS would be a far easier jumping off point? Less competitive, easier to start, etc?
I think was tends to get forgotten a lot is that many themes like that tend to go over kids heads, but 12 is plenty old enough to get it. I started at 10 and could easily tell that the Imperium weren't good guys. I started a homebrew chapter of non-Chaos renegades that were fighting to try and carve out a little peaceful empire in a small corner corner of the galaxy.
My kids now all play, they are 8, 6, and 4 and it's a great bonding experience for us, they love building and painting the models and playing simple 500pt games. They don't need to understand all the existential dread of the setting to have a good time hobbying as a family.
Honest question and I don’t even think it's OT:
My daughter is 4 - how do you introduce her into the game? I mean she watched me painting my minis and playing with my buddies and is definitely interested (like the little ones' usually are about everything ). But personally I wouldn't know where to start as 4 is still very young. I think it'd come down to me playing and she'd just throw the dice which of course is also something I guess.
What I'm asking is if your 4 old is actually playing on their own or rather supporting.
When my son was about 6 we started with Star Wars micro machines, a chipped wooden ruler, and a single six sided die. His stormtroopers hit on a 3+, my little guys hit on 5+. He ran the imperials and we had a campaign of sorts going as we developed the story of his leader on a side of paper. Good times. I think that really laid the ground work, then, Mage Knight clix came out a few years later, and he and I went bonkers.
Yeah, I think Star Trek Attack Wing and lotr of my collection are the games I'd probably prefer for starting the hobby as they're more approachable than 40K and can scale with literally one model per side.
PenitentJake wrote: GW does have a line of young fiction. Probably a bit too young to read it independently, but you could read it to her. I'd pre-read it first just to be sure.
It annoys me greatly that a tiny minority of people sent so much hate to the authors of those books!
I got recommended a video on that the other day that looked sus, I fear the algorithm so didn’t click it.
But that is still crazy people take it that far, makes me sad.
Agreed. I'm in the position where these books are probably the most interesting BL products, as they're an introduction to the hobby. Some fellow hobbyists love to gatekeep to the extreme, overlooking the inconcistency of other existing fluff.
I agree LoTR / ME SBG would be a nice intro for kids. Battle Companies is super simple and lends itself to narrative play. 40K does not have that without reverting to board games or an entirely different system, one page rules, which has its own share of problems. Kill Team, IMO, should be the intro to 40K and GW has made such a mess of it.
I'm very new to Warhammer and while I've been eying 40k for years, decades... I never took the plunge.
I feel it has some huge barriers to entry; rules, price and skill.
On several occasions I visited GW stores to see if it's something I'd like. Some times I got an avalance of information and options, other times I didn't get any help at all. At some point I just gave up.
A few friends picked up combat patrols to play recently. They had zero experience with 40k or mini painting. I picked up a CP as well to be able to play with them.
Instead of foing research as I always do I picked up the first 2nd hand set that I could find and went from there. Got 2nd hand index, codex and rule book.
I took it from there.
Turns out 40k isn't that hard really. If you can play D&D you can play 40k.
Hobby wise it's something you have to learn. If you don't have any experience GW takes you by the hand with their painting systems.
I've always hated GW for that, because imho it prevents people to look at other materials and techniques.
But a friend of mine has zero experience and would paint with the back of the paintbrush if he isn't instructed. The GW system works perfeclty for him. So that's a good thing.
But there is a lot of 'complicated mist' around Warhammer that makes it hard to get a sense of the scope of what you are getting in to.
Combine that with the monetary/time investment you have to make to see wether you even like the game...
But there is a lot of 'complicated mist' around Warhammer that makes it hard to get a sense of the scope of what you are getting in to.
Combine that with the monetary/time investment you have to make to see wether you even like the game...
To be fair you can say that of almost anything, though the complicating mist can be a symptom from people who research a lot before taking something up where there's a risk that you end up confusing yourself and making something out to be way more complicated than it is because you've read so much and picked up impressions, ideas, concepts and such in the wrong order or without context.
Another thing that I think a LOT of people overlook is that whilst anyone can start a hobby - from research or just impulsive nature - the other aspect is that any hobby which has any degree of social group around it; has a portion of starting the hobby which is being welcomed into the hobby. Something I think many people overlook or assume; but being welcomed in is more than just being allowed in. It's those people that help orientate you; guide you; answer questions; provide support and more that make you part of the hobby group.
Yes we can all be independent and individual, but at the same time humans are social creatures and being part of the "group" is also important when the hobby involves a group. Even if its just sharing photos of your models online and such.
Yep, it can be said for a lot of things.
And to be fair, perhaps I could have picked up a starters box to see what's what.
I still think it's a bit harder to wrap your head around Warhammer if you know nothing about it than say, D&D.
And that leads nicely into your last point:
I totally agree about being welcomed into the hobby. That's the reason I took the plunge now and probably why I didn't do so before.
Community is very important.
I think DnD is just as complicated; its just easier on some fronts because its so heavily marketed by themselves and 3rd parties.
Warhammer in the UK is pretty strongly marketed to the point most people know what it is if you mention Warhammer or Space Marines (a little less so Games Workshop); but its nothing like as well understood (generally) as DnD.
And I'd wager DnD is stronger abroad as well.
GW are getting there year by year, their video game licences have paid off really well in that respect and if they can nail the TV series with Amazon that's another big boon. Lord of the Rings also did them a huge boost
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Not gonna lie, as a dad, I think 12 is a little young for the themes of 40k as a whole. Not judging the parent, but maybe AOS would be a far easier jumping off point? Less competitive, easier to start, etc?
I think was tends to get forgotten a lot is that many themes like that tend to go over kids heads, but 12 is plenty old enough to get it. I started at 10 and could easily tell that the Imperium weren't good guys. I started a homebrew chapter of non-Chaos renegades that were fighting to try and carve out a little peaceful empire in a small corner corner of the galaxy.
My kids now all play, they are 8, 6, and 4 and it's a great bonding experience for us, they love building and painting the models and playing simple 500pt games. They don't need to understand all the existential dread of the setting to have a good time hobbying as a family.
Honest question and I don’t even think it's OP:
My daughter is 4 - how do you introduce her into the game? I mean she watched me painting my minis and playing with my buddies and is definitely interested (like the little ones' usually are about everything ). But personally I wouldn't know where to start as 4 is still very young. I think it'd come down to me playing and she'd just throw the dice which of course is also something I guess.
What I'm asking is if your 4 old is actually playing on their own or rather supporting.
Sorry for the late response.
She was really interested in all the painting and modeling I was doing, so I took her to my shelves and asked her what her favourite was. She gravitated towards the Tyrandis immediately. I gave her a few spare Termagaunts to paint and she loved it. When her uncle saw this, he got her a Hive Tyrant for Christmas and we spent part of the day building it. (She clipped the pieces off the sprue and I trimmed them. I put on the glue and she helped put any not too tricky pieces into place.) She wanted wings which we did, but made sure it was using the standing pose to be less breakable. She then spent the rest of the day flying it around the house making munching noises. She's since picked up some Warriors, Barbgaunts, and Deathleaper (she likes the larger models) and I lend her a few extra models to make 500 points when we play.
As for where she's actually at with the games, she understands the basics. That she can can move these units a certain distance, that cover helps protect them, that they can shoot and charge things and a general understanding of what units are better against different types of enemies. Beyond that, I just run the rules in my head and tell her what she needs to roll. We leave Stratagems and secondary objectives out of the game for the moment.
One things to keep in mind is that, they will be rough with their models and they will break them. Obviously you want to teach them to be gentle, but don't' stress out about it if you're gluing things back together every so often.
Sounds like as Christmas approaches her Uncle better be given some hints - I think that sounds like a Harpy or Crone would suit her! More wings, more endless devouring - and honestly not too many delicate parts either.
Overread wrote: Sounds like as Christmas approaches her Uncle better be given some hints - I think that sounds like a Harpy or Crone would suit her! More wings, more endless devouring - and honestly not too many delicate parts either.
One of her brothers plays Space Marines, so we're planning on getting them Starter Set to split. Her 2 starting Termagaunts are broken beyond repair at this point (she started painting and playing with them a few months before turning 3) and she misses them, so we think she'll really like those, she also thinks the Psychophage is really cool. I was worried at first that she wasn't going to be gentle enough with the spindly Von Ryan's Leapers, but she's only broken Deathleaper twice in the past 6 months, so I think she'll be able to manage.
Overread wrote: I think DnD is just as complicated; its just easier on some fronts because its so heavily marketed by themselves and 3rd parties.
Warhammer in the UK is pretty strongly marketed to the point most people know what it is if you mention Warhammer or Space Marines (a little less so Games Workshop); but its nothing like as well understood (generally) as DnD.
And I'd wager DnD is stronger abroad as well.
GW are getting there year by year, their video game licences have paid off really well in that respect and if they can nail the TV series with Amazon that's another big boon. Lord of the Rings also did them a huge boost
I'd also point out the other D&D players are on your team, and can kibitz more easily.
I don't think there is a good way for someone totaly new, and without a group to enter any GW games right now. Unless they want to play against themselfs.
It is not even about what ever someone is focused to be the best gamer. Maybe for painters it is easier, but how many people with no painting expiriance pick up GW kits to paint from zero, with no expiriance? Without being comissioned to do it too. Not many. The old stuff is often out of scale, against the new stuff and even models from the same model range. So esthethic wise people may not like it. The monopose new stuff is the proper size, but what mad man wants to paint 10 identical flamer dudes. In the past there were different poses, extra stuff weapons/gear/etc for the different models in the unit. And while it may not always been good for efficiency, a new player or painter could make one unit, just the way they wanted.
And then there is the army cost. Not everyone can be like my GK, which can be build out of models bought in 7th ed to make an almost identical army as back then. In w40k especialy someone can fall for the space marine trap. Army resets multiple times an edition, gets invalidated. Playing marines start to feel like playing some mobile game with sesons and this time I need 9 tanks, in 6-12 months I will need 120 infantry etc.
AoS is a bit better, but it is starting to do the same stuff w40k does. Phasing out models/factions. Starter stuff is crap. New edition? We made super powerful spell practicaly obligatory, same with faction terrain. Play faction X (FEC) we made it bad, and obligatory to buy expensive special character monster kits.
Now it isn't as bad , although 3ed imo was, as w40k is right now, but anyone who got to expiriance Nighthaunt for the last 6 weeks, and played 10th w40k , is getting a strange eldar de javu.
I think that as far as getting in to, playing/painting etc the best stuff GW does is often the stuff they don't do much for . Stuff like Bloodbowl or Warmaster. If someone can it is probably best to get in to those games first. They are cheaper, more fun, the communities keep the games alive and write better rule sets for the games then GW proper. Same with models. GW is not making the models you like? No problem here are your 3d eastern europe copies, or German/Spanish original if you don't want 1 to 1 GW stuff.
Karol wrote: I don't think there is a good way for someone totaly new, and without a group to enter any GW games right now.
I'd argue that there's never been a better time except perhaps in the VAST history of Rogue Trader era. For all the arguments of price and stuff, right now GW have a LOT of options on the market; an insane amount of resources of their own and 3rd party online and more. There's a LOT of very easily accessed information today.
You don't have to go far into the net either - reddit and FB both have very active communities.
GW themselves out put marketing every day of the week through their own website; have stores on the highstreet; etc...
If you are interested then right now there's very few barriers to entry. Price is certainly one, but honestly that's always a barrier to any new hobby and each hobby has its gateway price to get in normally; its 2ndhand/3rd party option that's cheaper and its high grade option that's more expensive. Plus with Warcry, Combat Patrol, Killteam and Underworlds there are a good number of cheaper options to get into Warhammer games right now.
Karol wrote: I don't think there is a good way for someone totaly new, and without a group to enter any GW games right now.
I'd argue that there's never been a better time except perhaps in the VAST history of Rogue Trader era. For all the arguments of price and stuff, right now GW have a LOT of options on the market; an insane amount of resources of their own and 3rd party online and more. There's a LOT of very easily accessed information today.
You don't have to go far into the net either - reddit and FB both have very active communities.
GW themselves out put marketing every day of the week through their own website; have stores on the highstreet; etc...
If you are interested then right now there's very few barriers to entry. Price is certainly one, but honestly that's always a barrier to any new hobby and each hobby has its gateway price to get in normally; its 2ndhand/3rd party option that's cheaper and its high grade option that's more expensive. Plus with Warcry, Combat Patrol, Killteam and Underworlds there are a good number of cheaper options to get into Warhammer games right now.
That's not going to get you games. One of the mistakes GW made was scaling back their in-store gaming facilities. As the poster you replied to said "without a group" - without store play its hard to get a game to meet the group. Some of the rest of their post was a little less than I'd agree with - The fluff is more accessible than ever with the fluff "wiki" style pages, but its still a tough nut to lay out for the starter set, and codex, and paint, and hobby tools, and and and. That's before you expand beyond the starter set models and assuming you get someone helpful and knowledgeable enough to steer you to a starter set and advise waiting until you've "worn it out" to expand.
Karol wrote: I don't think there is a good way for someone totaly new, and without a group to enter any GW games right now. Unless they want to play against themselfs.
I disagree. GW have become much better at creating multiple gateways into the game, either through things like Combat Patrol or through gateway games like Warcry or Kill Team which provide easy one-box purchases as complete experiences.
There's still a problem with finding people to play with, but in my expereince the place you buy your models from will almost always either provide that gaming location themselves, or be able to point you to one. Social media is also pretty handy here in finding out about the local scene. The UK X-Wing and 40kFB groups, for example, frequently have people asking about local groups, and getting useful answers in response.
And then there is the army cost. Not everyone can be like my GK, which can be build out of models bought in 7th ed to make an almost identical army as back then. In w40k especialy someone can fall for the space marine trap. Army resets multiple times an edition, gets invalidated. Playing marines start to feel like playing some mobile game with sesons and this time I need 9 tanks, in 6-12 months I will need 120 infantry etc.
It can be difficult as established players to understand that new players don't really have a problem playing small games. They definitely don't need to get a 2k army built and painted before they start playing. Costs can be spread out over time to make things more manageable. My club runs the full spectrum from 500 point start games to 2k+. Personally, I don't think the game is very fun or balanced below about 1000 points but I'll still play a new player at 500/1000 points in order to help grow the player base.
Only a small handful of our 25+ players care enough about the meta to go and grab the new hotness as soon as it's released. I suspect the majority of players wouldn't even know what the current meta actually is, never mind care enough to chase it. GW could definitely do better in terms of balance, so there aren't armies that are just plain terrible. Even that's been improving lately.
Karol wrote: I don't think there is a good way for someone totaly new, and without a group to enter any GW games right now.
I'd argue that there's never been a better time except perhaps in the VAST history of Rogue Trader era. For all the arguments of price and stuff, right now GW have a LOT of options on the market; an insane amount of resources of their own and 3rd party online and more. There's a LOT of very easily accessed information today.
You don't have to go far into the net either - reddit and FB both have very active communities.
GW themselves out put marketing every day of the week through their own website; have stores on the highstreet; etc...
If you are interested then right now there's very few barriers to entry. Price is certainly one, but honestly that's always a barrier to any new hobby and each hobby has its gateway price to get in normally; its 2ndhand/3rd party option that's cheaper and its high grade option that's more expensive. Plus with Warcry, Combat Patrol, Killteam and Underworlds there are a good number of cheaper options to get into Warhammer games right now.
That's not going to get you games. One of the mistakes GW made was scaling back their in-store gaming facilities. As the poster you replied to said "without a group" - without store play its hard to get a game to meet the group. Some of the rest of their post was a little less than I'd agree with - The fluff is more accessible than ever with the fluff "wiki" style pages, but its still a tough nut to lay out for the starter set, and codex, and paint, and hobby tools, and and and. That's before you expand beyond the starter set models and assuming you get someone helpful and knowledgeable enough to steer you to a starter set and advise waiting until you've "worn it out" to expand.
In the UK at least the GW stores still have gaming tables; though many of them are much smaller than they were in the 90s. A symptom of GW wanting to stay in the highstreet region (though no longer prime locations) for exposure and walk-in custom and such; but with the costs going up and up and up. So they've scaled back on as much as they can. I agree, more tables, more gaming space is ideal; but I just don't think the highstreet is as accommodating to actual shops these days; which is why we see so many stores open and close/change hands and charity shops; not to mention loads that are just outright empty now. Even big brands and top selling products are not healthy right now and GW are a niche hobby. It's honestly impressive they can keep the stores profitable and in the locations they currently do.
I do agree that most people will engage with the hobby as part of a group; be it a club; friends; school groups or the like. However I'd say the same is true of a lot of hobbies; even things like Fishing you often find new people want mentors/guides and a welcome/introduction into the hobby and so forth. Still I'd say GW is in a strong position on those fronts - most game clubs will have warhammer players or former warhammer players. The internet is awash with "getting started" guides and intros. It's not like getting started with smaller games where you might have to actually become the local "rep" in all but title and pay to promote the game and push people to join in locally to get it going.
I do agree that most people will engage with the hobby as part of a group; be it a club; friends; school groups or the like. However I'd say the same is true of a lot of hobbies; even things like Fishing you often find new people want mentors/guides and a welcome/introduction into the hobby and so forth. Still I'd say GW is in a strong position on those fronts - most game clubs will have warhammer players or former warhammer players. The internet is awash with "getting started" guides and intros. It's not like getting started with smaller games where you might have to actually become the local "rep" in all but title and pay to promote the game and push people to join in locally to get it going.
Over here its not that they don't have the tables, its that they don't have the hours. Ironically the one next to the college doesn't really have tables, but its the outlier. I have two shops relatively nearby, and its hard enough to buy something there, let alone get a game in with how often they're closed. Most stores over here are a one-person shop. Closed two days to give them a weekend (and with my bad luck and non-standard schedule those days overlap a lot), closed for lunch, closed for training, closed for meetings, and so on. I probably should have said staffing rather than facilities.
I think the UK has better coverage of spare staff that float between the 1-man-stores so that at least training and meetings can let them cover when the main staffer is away (same for holidays).
Might be the USA is harder to handled that with with how spread out it is or in different states.
But yeah one staffer has its limits when they have to close for lunch and so forth. There's also the issue that one staffer can only do one thing at a time; so they can't be doing tillwork and doing demo games and the paint-desk all at once.
I think if GW could find a way they would go back to having more staff, but I think the highstreet has to become a LOT cheaper to operate on to make that practical.
No one answered his question and, as you noted, the hobby probably lost a few new recruits. I have seen this on this forum and so many other table-top game forums. Many responders reply with some lame attempt at humor. I often spend time having to wade thru endless attempts at humor to find the few posts that are helpful and provide insight. I think the internet aspect of this hobby would be enriched if questions were answered with thoughtful and appropriate responses. Let's put the humor in its own forum. Of course, freedom of speech and all that, so it will not be happening.
silgalis1 wrote: No one answered his question and, as you noted, the hobby probably lost a few new recruits. I have seen this on this forum and so many other table-top game forums. Many responders reply with some lame attempt at humor. I often spend time having to wade thru endless attempts at humor to find the few posts that are helpful and provide insight. I think the internet aspect of this hobby would be enriched if questions were answered with thoughtful and appropriate responses. Let's put the humor in its own forum. Of course, freedom of speech and all that, so it will not be happening.
Or people "should" do both if they want to do humor. Do the humor, explain it is humor (and maybe why if that's relevant) then give the "good" answer.
silgalis1 wrote: No one answered his question and, as you noted, the hobby probably lost a few new recruits. I have seen this on this forum and so many other table-top game forums. Many responders reply with some lame attempt at humor. I often spend time having to wade thru endless attempts at humor to find the few posts that are helpful and provide insight. I think the internet aspect of this hobby would be enriched if questions were answered with thoughtful and appropriate responses. Let's put the humor in its own forum. Of course, freedom of speech and all that, so it will not be happening.
Litterally the first reply answered the question.... and the following few ones too
nvm, i thought you meant the question in this very thread, not the question the person OP is talking about asked on discord
Overread wrote: I think the UK has better coverage of spare staff that float between the 1-man-stores so that at least training and meetings can let them cover when the main staffer is away (same for holidays).
Might be the USA is harder to handled that with with how spread out it is or in different states.
But yeah one staffer has its limits when they have to close for lunch and so forth. There's also the issue that one staffer can only do one thing at a time; so they can't be doing tillwork and doing demo games and the paint-desk all at once.
I think if GW could find a way they would go back to having more staff, but I think the highstreet has to become a LOT cheaper to operate on to make that practical.
yes to all this and being stretched thin allows local FLGS's to really grab those customers, but they have to make an effort in the aisles and monitoring their social media.
They, too, are stretched thin quite often of course.
I hope a take-away from this post is that others jump in and assist the next generation of players. I'm sure many of you do, as does my group.
Ive found that my club has a major problem not only with getting newer players into the hobby, but also retaining them.
As in, our numbers have barely increased since the late 90's. And that's even taking into account deaths, and overseas deployments, and the like. Yes, i'm fully aware that some of the old-hands are no longer with us in anywhere near as much frequency as they used to. And yes, i'm aware that word-of-mouth does wonders, which is where we get a lot of replacements and greenhorns. But that's not the main problem, those ones stay.
We set up outreach programmes in local universities, miniature shops, but for some reason, people from these outside groups just don't want to stay with our pre-established group.
We've even made a effort to tone down our language, refrained from inside jokes, hell, we've even taken down most of the flags, plaques, photographs, we've gone off-base, we've shown up in civvies, but nope. young people just aren't interested.
the-gentleman-ranker wrote: Ive found that my club has a major problem not only with getting newer players into the hobby, but also retaining them.
As in, our numbers have barely increased since the late 90's. And that's even taking into account deaths, and overseas deployments, and the like. Yes, i'm fully aware that some of the old-hands are no longer with us in anywhere near as much frequency as they used to. And yes, i'm aware that word-of-mouth does wonders, which is where we get a lot of replacements and greenhorns. But that's not the main problem, those ones stay.
We set up outreach programmes in local universities, miniature shops, but for some reason, people from these outside groups just don't want to stay with our pre-established group.
We've even made a effort to tone down our language, refrained from inside jokes, hell, we've even taken down most of the flags, plaques, photographs, we've gone off-base, we've shown up in civvies, but nope. young people just aren't interested.
Well, hopefully those who don't return to you are playing somewhere.
Even if you're a really great really friendly bunch of people doing everything right, sometimes there's a bias based on similarities within the group.
eg a large group of over 50s will often have trouble getting teenagers and younger generations to join; esp if they are coming in ones and twos and are minority.
Social class can be an aspect, a group of very "rough" talkers might find that the "posh kids" don't want to join in so readily.
Colour, race, religion (if evident), age, gender . They can all rear their heads as a subtle barrier even if there are no overt moves to make them barriers.
It's a really hard thing to tackle because often as not there is no big barrier to take down. No one is being rude, unfriendly, unkind, pushing their own agenda etc...
Layer on top that the fact that a lot of people into our kind of hobby are often the less socially experienced so nerves, anxiety and a bunch of other things form people looking to join can also be their own personal barriers to them retaining the ability/desire to remain and you've got yourself a big challenge.
Sometimes you can overcome it with a big push so that you get a large group of the same kind of person to join all at once. The hope being that if you can get 10 people of a similar background to join at once they kind of form their own clique/niche within the group that helps support themselves and keep coming around.
Another is to indeed see if the group ends up forming their own and provide support for that; which might be so simple as helping make sure they've got a place to play or organising inter-group events and such
Hard thing is maintaining exposure, advertising and recruitment. Often it comes in fits and waves and then splutters out. Sometimes the only way is just to have a sustained approach over a very long period of time - adding in diversity and changes of course, but basically to keep going even when it doesn't seem to do much
Overread wrote: Even if you're a really great really friendly bunch of people doing everything right, sometimes there's a bias based on similarities within the group.
eg a large group of over 50s will often have trouble getting teenagers and younger generations to join; esp if they are coming in ones and twos and are minority.
Social class can be an aspect, a group of very "rough" talkers might find that the "posh kids" don't want to join in so readily.
Colour, race, religion (if evident), age, gender . They can all rear their heads as a subtle barrier even if there are no overt moves to make them barriers.
It's a really hard thing to tackle because often as not there is no big barrier to take down. No one is being rude, unfriendly, unkind, pushing their own agenda etc...
Layer on top that the fact that a lot of people into our kind of hobby are often the less socially experienced so nerves, anxiety and a bunch of other things form people looking to join can also be their own personal barriers to them retaining the ability/desire to remain and you've got yourself a big challenge.
Sometimes you can overcome it with a big push so that you get a large group of the same kind of person to join all at once. The hope being that if you can get 10 people of a similar background to join at once they kind of form their own clique/niche within the group that helps support themselves and keep coming around.
Another is to indeed see if the group ends up forming their own and provide support for that; which might be so simple as helping make sure they've got a place to play or organising inter-group events and such
Hard thing is maintaining exposure, advertising and recruitment. Often it comes in fits and waves and then splutters out. Sometimes the only way is just to have a sustained approach over a very long period of time - adding in diversity and changes of course, but basically to keep going even when it doesn't seem to do much
Only pattern i could find is that almost all of us are in the services. I think we've only got two from civilian backgrounds. Though we do have a very healthy mix. Ages range from 13-60, mix of ethnicities, lads from airforce and navy as well as MP and army. Its just that for some reason, civilians don't fit in.
Only pattern i could find is that almost all of us are in the services. I think we've only got two from civilian backgrounds. Though we do have a very healthy mix. Ages range from 13-60, mix of ethnicities, lads from airforce and navy as well as MP and army. Its just that for some reason, civilians don't fit in.
Yeah and that could well be the factor. How its a factor is much harder to pin down. It could be like you've tried to identify something with your use of language, or display or flags. However it could also be something like the way you play the games* or even the time of day/location you meet in that works for all of you but doesn't fit regular people. That's a bit of "grasping at straws for ideas" but its more to think that it might not be something really obvious and overt but something more subtle.
The hard part is that when people leave they often don't say why and sometimes there isn't really a reason but a "feeling" they have. Or its one of those cases where "its not you its me" even though it is a you think etc...
It could even just be that you are all kind of cliquey and people "feel" that when they come alone in 1s and 2s and such. You might not be intending to be such at all; but sometimes it can happen or come across as happening without any intention (and even with you taking measures to try and reduce it being a possible factor).
*eg you could be all super casual and those who try to join want more "serious" attitudes. Or it could be the total opposite
Only pattern i could find is that almost all of us are in the services. I think we've only got two from civilian backgrounds. Though we do have a very healthy mix. Ages range from 13-60, mix of ethnicities, lads from airforce and navy as well as MP and army. Its just that for some reason, civilians don't fit in.
Yeah and that could well be the factor. How its a factor is much harder to pin down. It could be like you've tried to identify something with your use of language, or display or flags. However it could also be something like the way you play the games* or even the time of day/location you meet in that works for all of you but doesn't fit regular people. That's a bit of "grasping at straws for ideas" but its more to think that it might not be something really obvious and overt but something more subtle.
The hard part is that when people leave they often don't say why and sometimes there isn't really a reason but a "feeling" they have. Or its one of those cases where "its not you its me" even though it is a you think etc...
It could even just be that you are all kind of cliquey and people "feel" that when they come alone in 1s and 2s and such. You might not be intending to be such at all; but sometimes it can happen or come across as happening without any intention (and even with you taking measures to try and reduce it being a possible factor).
*eg you could be all super casual and those who try to join want more "serious" attitudes. Or it could be the total opposite
all good points. I was an army brat / military family, but opted to not go into the service myself as an adult. So I definitely know how those worlds ebb, and flow, and sometimes do not mix.
the-gentleman-ranker wrote: Ive found that my club has a major problem not only with getting newer players into the hobby, but also retaining them.
As in, our numbers have barely increased since the late 90's. And that's even taking into account deaths, and overseas deployments, and the like. Yes, i'm fully aware that some of the old-hands are no longer with us in anywhere near as much frequency as they used to. And yes, i'm aware that word-of-mouth does wonders, which is where we get a lot of replacements and greenhorns. But that's not the main problem, those ones stay.
We set up outreach programmes in local universities, miniature shops, but for some reason, people from these outside groups just don't want to stay with our pre-established group.
We've even made a effort to tone down our language, refrained from inside jokes, hell, we've even taken down most of the flags, plaques, photographs, we've gone off-base, we've shown up in civvies, but nope. young people just aren't interested.
Yeah, it can be really tough getting into a group as an outsider, even if that group is very welcoming. Back when I got into MTG, I remember going to my FLGS. Everyone there were already friends and while they were very welcoming, it took months before I stopped feeling like an outsider and started feeling like part of the group. It's a rough transition for some people, especially younger people that can be intimidated by older and more experienced players weather they mean to or not.
40k went a lot smoother for me though, as I just signed up for a beginners league at my FLGS and played one person at a time. I made a few friends and then was brought into a gaming club already knowing a couple of people from the into league. Since there were already people in the group that I'd hung out with and played with a few times, I never felt like an outsider there. (I was also about 10 years older and thus more mature than I was with MTG as well.)
So, take that as you will, hopefully it helps a little.
There's also the fact that those who leave or don't stick around often don't say anything about why they aren't there.
This might be because there is a problem and they don't want the potential conflict or to cause trouble and such so they drift away; leaving your group unable to tackle the issue(s).
And this could be really minor things rather than anyone being unfriendly.
Or it might be that its a them problem not a club problem - eg they enjoy it but they've other stuff going on in life; the club meeting day is on a bad time for them; they can't afford to stick around (esp a problem for newbies who have to build armies ot feel part of the system - esp if the group plays lots of high point games).
Many times there isn't even one big problem or issue to fix - its lots of little things that add up and each on on its own isn't really something the group can tackle or change etc...
Then you've got the issue where anything new requires a period of adjustment to fitting the new thing into a persons life. Where any small interruption - weather being bad and not wanting to drive to the club; club closed for one week; another commitment one time etc... can all result in someone not adapting to the change and falling back into whatever they normally did before club-night.
It's worth noting that Warhammer 40k is super-boring and slow as modern games go. Chances are most people trying it beyond painting a few models aren't going to last long.
Nomeny wrote: It's worth noting that Warhammer 40k is super-boring and slow as modern games go. Chances are most people trying it beyond painting a few models aren't going to last long.
Thats the issue, a lot of the classic games of yore (BattleTech, WH40k) are "super-boring," When compared to modern adrenaline-fueled gaming experiences.
But some people prefer those gaming experiences. There is no one size fits all gaming experience.
I am reminded of a heart warming story from a few years ago. I know it was posted on Dakka, possibly by myself.
Short version is the mother of an autistic kid was looking for opponents for her son. And she was offering to pay people.
The request did the rounds, and I’m happy to say there were a bunch of volunteers, none of whom collected the offered pay.
If memory serves, they were in the Stockport area, as I’m sure he was invited down to Element Games? But whilst the story is 100% genuine, I may be misremembering the finer details.
I know it doesn’t help OP like, but it’s nice to be reminded how wholesome our community can be.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I am reminded of a heart warming story from a few years ago. I know it was posted on Dakka, possibly by myself.
Short version is the mother of an autistic kid was looking for opponents for her son. And she was offering to pay people.
The request did the rounds, and I’m happy to say there were a bunch of volunteers, none of whom collected the offered pay.
If memory serves, they were in the Stockport area, as I’m sure he was invited down to Element Games? But whilst the story is 100% genuine, I may be misremembering the finer details.
I know it doesn’t help OP like, but it’s nice to be reminded how wholesome our community can be.
I'm happy to say supportive experiences happen here as well. The fact that it did not for the dad in question is why I why I was disappointed. The timing for the right people was off. Thanks for telling us your experience, it's good to read.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That is, of course, half of the discussion. The other is how hard it is to help someone who has zero knowledge and experience in gaming start playing nearly anything GW.
I've recently had issues as a newly relocated player.
A FLGS that I visited for open 40k game weekends. It was filled with Tournament only gamers who talked down to me, and said no one wants to play against "C-Tier" armies. Another player suggested I buy a new army if I wanted to play there.
I will never be returning. Edit: to play there, but I will still visit on non 40k days.
It's not always the store (that's why I'm not going to mention their name, it's no fault if their own) sometimes it's the "community."
The local Warhammer shop actually had decent people at it. I think I'll spend my time/money there.
I've started a few warhammer communities myself and I've been in competitive clubs.
I think I am coming down on the side of the competitive stuff being a detriment to new players, unless they're of a particular mindset.
These days I don't try to join communities (language barrier is an issue, though my German is alright, I just feel embarrassed that it's not better) and I'm just getting people I already know and like interested.
But every time a new person expresses interest imo you should jump on it and try to help them out. That's how we keep the wargaming hobby alive, by helping people get into it. It can be a tricky thing to get into, and the standards shown online to new entrants can make it seem really intimidating (huge armies of extremely nicely painted minis on expensive tables). Showing people you can have lots of fun from humble beginnings is important.
It isn't good that a 'thank you' hit the news. It can't be all that uncommon to get a good review. It's nice to see though, when it does.
But, if the other reason GW pays to keep these stores open and in so many places, is for this kind of thing. GW's bosses really aren't such bad people after all, and this is what they wanted all along.
I haven't met a Redshirt in a GW store who I wouldn't think would go out of their way to help someone who comes in.
I left the Hobby years ago, and aside from the tedium of the game, and the problem that someone else mentioned about smaller games being even worse, th fact was that I realized I could be spending time with actual friends rather than people who were great and friendly and enthusiastic but also only connected to me by the Hobby.
Crispy78 wrote: Although, at the end of the day, I suppose it more or less sounds like "guy went to shop, assistant helped him spend his money"...
Gonna White Knight here, but my trust steed shall be called Lived Experience.
As covered previously, I’m a former 3 time GW Till Monkey. And on the last run, I wound up working in stores up and down the country.
Run well? A GW store is more than a shop. It’s the entry point to a hobby which has had all of us pumping money in for decades. Because the hobby itself is fun, and ideally inclusive.
That begins with the staff. Just basic shop management says “acknowledge everyone that comes in”, as a very basic shop lifting deterrent. But for GW it goes a bit further, when you remember your training. Engage via open questions. If they’re new, offer intro activities. If they’re established, the open questions should lead to you an understanding of their hobby. And from there the sales shall come.
That any store made a disabled person feel welcome and included is, sadly for here the right reasons, kinda unusual. And I’m willing to bet a decent amount of money it’s that last point which lead to the article.
Now, it’s not always been that way. There’s a Viz (Britains sweariest, most five week list crude cartoon grin mag) strip which shows how it can go so wrong. Maybe I can link it. Here goes. Apologies if it doesn’t work.
Yeah, it can be really tough getting into a group as an outsider, even if that group is very welcoming. Back when I got into MTG, I remember going to my FLGS. Everyone there were already friends and while they were very welcoming, it took months before I stopped feeling like an outsider and started feeling like part of the group. It's a rough transition for some people, especially younger people that can be intimidated by older and more experienced players weather they mean to or not.
40k went a lot smoother for me though, as I just signed up for a beginners league at my FLGS and played one person at a time. I made a few friends and then was brought into a gaming club already knowing a couple of people from the into league. Since there were already people in the group that I'd hung out with and played with a few times, I never felt like an outsider there. (I was also about 10 years older and thus more mature than I was with MTG as well.)
So, take that as you will, hopefully it helps a little.
When 8th started my old store, gone now, had a swarm of us 12-13y olds starting w40k. I think there was like 25-27 people all from same school. The regulars didn't like us that much, as we slow played and took up tables from them. So often the games would be something like first 1-3 turns and then next pair has a chance to play. After that 9th and 10th, I have seen no new players start the game, and I switched schools and cities where I lived. Sometimes someone will return with an existing army and try to play for some time, but w40k is so technical and build locked right now, that without a coach it is really hard to get it. And even if you do get in it seems to not be very fun for a lot of returners.
AoS on the other hand was doing great in 3ed, seen it played and grow over multiple cities and stores. Then 4th came and boy oh boy was it an anti success story here. People lost armies, including ones that were sure they would be safe for years Beastmen, regardless of power, were a super popular army (second one of such oddities is Ogers). Now they are gone. Spearhead was suppose to "the best tested and most fun game system GW ever made" and it turned bland ultra quick, People stopped playing it in like month 2 after the new edition dropped. The game felt very w40k. You got locked in to builds, you HAD to buy faction terrain, spells etc "Unexpectably" the high cost (in money) kits somehow were good, and regular mooks were bad. Game became elite heavy and what really did it in for new players was the starter set. The models are great. I don't play either of the faction, but still think they really good. But skaven are a swarm army, hard to start for a new player. And SCE are technicaly perfect to start. Elite units uppon more elite units . What is not to love? Well finding out that you are never going to use the Liberators, the "ax guard" or the heroes. That what you need to play is some very expensive big monster kits, specific heroes and units that stores have to pray to be allowed to order from GW.
Besides the tournament folk, for both w40k and AoS, not many people seem to be coming/hanging around the stores this days. Heck there are fewer people in then there were durning covid. But this is a local thing here, and it has it good sides. People play Fantasy and with some, heavy, errating are having super fun. But WFB and 9th age were always strong here. People are printing and playing the bejesus out of HH too. But fun or not, as far as GW games there don't seem to be any new players, especialy not at the age I started the game. And it isn't a table top game general thing either. Because historicals and infinity do get new players. Historicals when combined probably are, localy, bigger then AoS and maybe even the size of w40k right now.
I've been blessed by having not only a pretty good community, but also having multiple FLGS's to play/buy stuff at. When I first started playing 40k, I was actually told by a worker at one of the shops to go ahead and sign up for a tournament, as he said the group was pretty chill and welcoming to new players. And...he was right! I had an absolute blast despite how badly I got destroyed! In my first couple of tournaments and a few pickup games with the group, I got lots of helpful advice and got better as a player, both in terms of playing tactically better and just getting more efficient at remembering all my units' stats and knowing what could be fast rolled, etc. Now, the group wasn't exactly a bunch of casual players, either. It was an absolute shark tank with multiple GT winners in it. But that's part of why I learned so well from them; these guys knew what they were doing. Sadly that group has pretty much disbanded, as many of the players have either moved away, quit playing, or (in the case of a couple of them) died. However, we have a new group, and although they are generally not as high caliber of players as the old group, they are still very friendly to newcomers, and it's been my pleasure to see some new talent be nurtured and our local tournaments have once again been happening (the COVID-19 pandemic kind of killed the old tournament routine). I now have 3 FLGS's in my hometown, and while I do have a preference of the three I've been known to play and shop at all of them. I've never had any major issues with the owners or staff at any of them myself, although I've known a few who have taken issue with the owner of one of the shops. A certain level of drama is unavoidable, I guess, but so far I'm not involved in any of that. We haven't had any massively toxic players either; we've had a couple of guys who were kinda sore losers, but nothing compared to some of the horror stories I've read here on Dakka and elsewhere. Nobody's flipped a table or purposefully destroyed their own or their opponent's models. And as far as I can tell, everybody bathes regularly and uses soap and deodorant. Now the Magic the Gathering players, on the other hand... (but that's a discussion for another day).
). But personally I wouldn't know where to start as 4 is still very young. I think it'd come down to me playing and she'd just throw the dice which of course is also something I guess.
She's since picked up some Warriors, Barbgaunts, and Deathleaper (she likes the larger models) and I lend her a few extra models to make 500 points when we play.
