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Greetings.

Recently on a local store Discord the father of a potential new player asked for help.
He started with the question, "my son wants to play 40k. Do I need a full large army or can I buy one box of models
for him to play with?"
Side note - his dad was not a gamer in any fashion, and his son was apparently about 12.
And I do not currently play 40K, but I do heavily game within some of GW's other systems.

I made a few suggestions, including one of the Leviathan type less expenses boxes so they could begin to learn the rules slowly, if the boy was
keen on marines or nids.
But he received several joke comments (in the 40K forum) and the lot of unhelpful advice in my eyes.

And I'm wondering here within the Dakka Community, is the current edition of 40K insanely hard to get into?
The guy just stopped posting, and we likely lost a future gamer to a different hobby.
This hit me kind of hard, as my son and I grew up wargaming together and its still really big and good for us.

New players are buying Spearhead / Vanguard boxes locally for an upcoming Age of Sigmar Spearhead monthly events.
But no one mentioned Combat Patrol to this gentlemen, and no one plays it.
How would you of helped this guy? or, is it a serious hindering issue with the current releases and rule sets?

looking forward to your thoughts.

GW has designed the current edition, to various degrees of success, to be easy to get into with easy to build and paint models and simplified rules. Many would say it has become too easy but I digress.

I think the big issue is that the competitive mindset is too entrenched in the 40k community and that often scares away a lot of new players who can't get into that mind set. AoS is still a relatively new game so the competitive nature has yet to fully set in allowing for the spearhead stuff to work a lot better then Combat Patrol.

I also know of plenty of Spearhead events happening near me but there is nothing for Combat Patrol as all to 40k players tend towards competitive play.

It depends on the interest of the son and the local gaming scene.

If it is just "play in the 40k universe" and there are players available for it, then Necromunda, Kill Team or Combat Patrol are options where a single purchase will be enough for a long time to have fun.

If the son wants to play the actual army sized 40k, then I would recommend a box with fitting content like Combat Patrol, Leviathan or Christmas boxes (whatever is available at the time). Especially the starter armies each edition can be bought on ebay for quite cheap.

Then there is https://hachettepartworks.com/en-en/warhammer-40000-imperium/ which is a weekly(?) magazine where you slowly build two complete armies over time including paints, brushes and everything. I'm not up to date with it, but I thought I saw them switching their content to basically making all the Combat Patrol boxes?

This is where, in the UK at least, GW Stores really come into it, as they’re well set up to run intros and beginners sessions to show the ropes.

In the US? FLGS should be offering much the same I’d imagine.

For mainline 40K, Combat Patrol is your friend. It’s there as the comparatively low cost entry route, and potentially a “one and done” purchase if you don’t get on with them game, but a stable launch pad for more models if you do.

Honestly, if the boy is 12, he could probably get a box of easy to paint space marines, and use them as an entry to modelling kits (with parental supervision and assistance) and then just use them as toys initially. Dont worry about the game at first.
That would probably be a good place to start.

If he enjoys building, painting with them then maybe get a reinforcement box, perhaps a combat patrol after a month or two. That would be my recommendation.

Kids say they want things, and sometimes they really do. Other times expectations and reality don't match and they sit forgotten and unopened on the shelf. That's why you start small.

"local store Discord". That might have been the problem. Most people there are grouped up, and are probably only posting to scorie points off each other, hence the joke comments. The comments there were nothing to do with the question the father asked.
Places like Dakka are more 'spread out', and we have less to gain from our posts.

The store should have pointed them to the GW website, and the 'Getting Started' pages they have on there. But that might lead to them buying directly from GW, not from the store.
But if they are to be playing in the store, the store's own meta affects the conversation. If no-one there plays anything less than 2000 points for instance, that's what the father will be told to buy.

As has been said here, what does the son want from the hobby? Modelling, painting, gaming, or just an entry into the wider hobby? Until he is introduced to the game, he is unlikely to know. Nor which army he'll prefer.
Again, the website will present that. Maybe not in a way that he'll get straight away, but he'll have some idea of what he is looking at when taken to the store, or given a box.
If he knows some of it already, how did he come to it? Video games, friends talking about it, White Dwarf in the magazine rack? Knowing that will help decide where to start.

As for the Discord, most groups appear to be cliquey Boys Clubs, best avoided.

Using Discord tends to lead to people acting like gremlins because there's not really any repercussions. Doing things like that in person are better, especially when you're a kid looking to get into something new.

As someone said above, 10th is kind of designed to be fairly straightforward and easy to pick up at a base level. But also, Kill Team is a fairly good way of gauging interest in the 40k universe as it's far less of a financial investment.

Otherwise, my recommendation for beginners is buy a box of basic infantry you like the look of, and if you want to push the boat out you can pick up a character and a vehicle. That gets you an experience of most of the basic rules, and means that they get a little army to play with rather than just a handful of guys.

Not gonna lie, as a dad, I think 12 is a little young for the themes of 40k as a whole. Not judging the parent, but maybe AOS would be a far easier jumping off point? Less competitive, easier to start, etc?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Not gonna lie, as a dad, I think 12 is a little young for the themes of 40k as a whole. Not judging the parent, but maybe AOS would be a far easier jumping off point? Less competitive, easier to start, etc?

Kids younger than 12 have been playing with G.I. Joes for a while, 40k is the same kind of deal. They won't automatically learn about the real fethed up stuff like the daemonculaba & co. unless you teach it to them. At a surface level, 40k is really sanitized

Yeah, but GI Joe dolls don't Literally promote Fachistic ideals as positive heroic aspects. Think about when you were 12? I bet you weren't solving middle east Peace problems.

There is some extremely heavy stuff in 40k that a 12 year old person MIGHT not be mature enough to deal with. And im not talking Slanesh the the NC17 stuff. But if its illegal to knowingly show a child R rated content, then surely 40k falls under "Parental Guidance required".

If a store is going to run its own Discord, someone representing the store really needs to be paying attention to flip moments like that into opportunities to sell the store. Invite the dad and son in, talk to them in person, etc.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Yeah, but GI Joe dolls don't Literally promote Fachistic ideals as positive heroic aspects. Think about when you were 12? I bet you weren't solving middle east Peace problems.

There is some extremely heavy stuff in 40k that a 12 year old person MIGHT not be mature enough to deal with. And im not talking Slanesh the the NC17 stuff. But if its illegal to knowingly show a child R rated content, then surely 40k falls under "Parental Guidance required".

Hard disagree, 40k as a game is perfectly fine for a child.

Now the lore behind the game, thats another story.

Assembling/Painting/Moving little plastic toys is not promotic any Fachistic ideals

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Yeah, but GI Joe dolls don't Literally promote Fachistic ideals as positive heroic aspects. Think about when you were 12? I bet you weren't solving middle east Peace problems.

There is some extremely heavy stuff in 40k that a 12 year old person MIGHT not be mature enough to deal with. And im not talking Slanesh the the NC17 stuff. But if its illegal to knowingly show a child R rated content, then surely 40k falls under "Parental Guidance required".

I started buying GW minis when I was 9 or 10. I was not paying attention to any of the adult themes of 40k (excluding the war, obviously), and just thought that Orks were cool toy soldiers that I got to build and paint. It was only after a year or two passed and I started buying the novels as well that I actually started noticing the other adult themes.

Younger kids are generally getting into 40k because it's a more grown-up version of playing with little green army men.

Also, GW aren't promoting fascist ideals as a positive thing. They've made it abundantly clear that there's no good guys in 40k.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Yeah, but GI Joe dolls don't Literally promote Fachistic ideals as positive heroic aspects. Think about when you were 12? I bet you weren't solving middle east Peace problems.

There is some extremely heavy stuff in 40k that a 12 year old person MIGHT not be mature enough to deal with. And im not talking Slanesh the the NC17 stuff. But if its illegal to knowingly show a child R rated content, then surely 40k falls under "Parental Guidance required".

I watched the Stephen King movie "Carrie" at age four.

I played my first game of D&D in grade 3.

Book reports on horror novels were pretty normal for me.

What kids can or cannot handle depends on the style of parenting employed by the parent. Some parents allow their children to experience the world WITH them; others choose to set rules for kids within which they explore the world with less one-to-one support, and in these cases, the rules will vary in scope and strictness of adherence based on the beliefs of the parent.

I've used 4ok to teach basic literacy and numeracy skills to kids as young as 8 years old.

If a kid's mind is going to be threatened by exposure to 40k, I think there are probably parental issues behind that. And yes, parenting is hard, and if parents don't have time to experience the hobby side by side with their kids, and as a result decide to shelter the kid from instead, then that's probably the right choice for that family... But expecting that everyone could or should fit that mold is a bit much.

Kids can be a lot smarter and more mature than they are made out to be when they are given the support of parents who are interested in helping them explore the world on their own terms.

LunarSol wrote:If a store is going to run its own Discord, someone representing the store really needs to be paying attention to flip moments like that into opportunities to sell the store. Invite the dad and son in, talk to them in person, etc.

My thoughts exactly. If there's a store Discord but nobody employed by the store is on it, that's a problem. If someone employed by the store is on it and didn't jump in as this was happening, that's a problem too. This is the perfect moment to grab potentially two new customers with just a little bit of thought and customer service. Even if the dad doesn't play, you could still encourage them to buy a bit more painting or modelling stuff so they can join in with their son.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Yeah, but GI Joe dolls don't Literally promote Fachistic ideals as positive heroic aspects. Think about when you were 12? I bet you weren't solving middle east Peace problems.

There is some extremely heavy stuff in 40k that a 12 year old person MIGHT not be mature enough to deal with. And im not talking Slanesh the the NC17 stuff. But if its illegal to knowingly show a child R rated content, then surely 40k falls under "Parental Guidance required".

I don't think a 12 year old is really going to grasp the nuances of the 40k setting in any way that's going to be problematic. They'll likely think whatever army they gravitate towards is cool, and that's about it. I was aware of 40k by 12 and the finer details of the political messaging of the setting went completely over my head. That said, it was still pretty obvious the Imperium was not an example of a utopian future.

This is why you’d think any FLGS would have some kind of beginners events to invite people to.

Doesn’t have to be terribly in depth, just the basic Move/Shoot/Fight and overall turn structure.

Not only does it suggest/pretend you care about your customers, but it can help them meet peers at a similar point in the hobby journey, and set them up with opponents once the basics are grasped.

I’m probably just being a grumpy old fart, but “go to our Discord” just isn’t the same, and reads to me as “I don’t want to talk to you”.

 Shrapnelsmile wrote:

And I'm wondering here within the Dakka Community, is the current edition of 40K insanely hard to get into?

How would you of helped this guy? or, is it a serious hindering issue with the current releases and rule sets?

looking forward to your thoughts.

It depends is the quick and dirty answer. Are you talking about 'kitchen table hammer', or 'super serious ruthless cutthroat tourney-hammer with all the shorthand terminology lobbed at them like a mortar? 40k is whatever you want it to be.

40k doesn't have to be hard to get into but I think advice given, especially by gamers to non-gamers, can often be impenetrable and the people giving it can come across as way too intense and not in a good way. When I bought bloodbowl for my wife after she saw it at warhammer world (yup, the football link was what grabbed her) and walking through the first game for example, when I mentioned a 'four plus' she looked at me like I had two heads- even the language we are so used to in the was alien to her. I'd also add I've met plenty gamers that can be.. problematic on a variety of fronts. Finding a good community/group should be seen as the foundational element, not what game you play or how you play it.

Honestly to help the guy, I'd ask to meet in person rather than over a screen. Easier to engage when you're all real people. I'd point to kill team as a starter. Fantastic game in its own right with a small up.front investment and can be used as a building block for the mass battle game if you so wish. Imo its one of gw's best offerings in a long time. And the price/time investment is an easier sell. Sell the game/hobby, but do it in a way that's accessible and isn't likely to frighten them off. It's good that there's a hobby element, a reading element and it's not screen based etc. Demos are a thing but really, last thing on my mind on a first meeting.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Yeah, but GI Joe dolls don't Literally promote Fachistic ideals as positive heroic aspects. Think about when you were 12? I bet you weren't solving middle east Peace problems.

There is some extremely heavy stuff in 40k that a 12 year old person MIGHT not be mature enough to deal with. And im not talking Slanesh the the NC17 stuff. But if its illegal to knowingly show a child R rated content, then surely 40k falls under "Parental Guidance required".

My dad's father took him to see The Deer Hunter as a kid. This seems kind of puritanical, in my opinion.

The idea that 40k is going to upset a 12 year old is kind of mindboggling to me. I got my first miniatures when I was 8 or 9 years old.

For someone genuinely starting out, I'd buy one of those 5-6 paints and 3 Marines kits. See if they like painting. Then assuming its not a complete flash in the pan, buy another kit of a faction they liked the look of. The main driver I suspect is having friends who are also into the hobby - or get into it together.

The body-horror of Ad Mech, the gore and gruesomeness of Tyranids, the fascism of the entire Imperium. Until the child/teen starts reading the lore, these things will be presented. But until then, 40k is a table of models, some maths, and a universe to share with others.

A friend of mine started with his father at maybe 8, accompanying when games were held at his place. He knew only the bare basics of the lore and simply enjoyed throwing dice and seeing minis.

I suppose that will obviously need to be seen individually whether that'd be bad for the child, but to him, and I assume to many of them, it'll look like what it is at the core: space fantasy. With space knights fighting aliens alongside space peasant levies while said alien do magic and have fantasy demons spat randomly. With fantasy not being particularly dangerous to children as far as I am aware, I suppose the same would be of 40k.

I mean, Star Wars with its "cool" Stormtroopers and people getting cut in half with Light sabres is in every Kindergarten nowadays, so being worried about 40K at age 12(!) is kind of... dispatched from reality?

To add to OPs question: I'd say 10th is more accessible than most prior editions (8th and 3rd might be on par), online Support helps a lot compared to earlier times.
Would I encourage 40K as a starting point? Probably not, depends on why the son chose it specifically. If it's about the Wargaming hobby more than 40K I'd suggest other games.

Removed - rule #1

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Removed - rule #1

Well you've been told about a few parents who let the kids see movies that were arguably more problematic, so essentially, you're calling RaptorousRex's grandpa and my mom bad parents.

You'll recall that my first response to you was polite, but this time, I think I'll not so kindly ask you removed - rule #1 please.

Whether or not someone is a good parent is a lot more complicated than what movies we let kids watch and what games we let them play. Often, it's more about the "how" than the "what" - see my previous post about using 40k to teach literacy and numeracy.

Have an exalt PenitentJake.
I'm really starting to wonder if Fezzik is just on here to annoy others and generally be a troll. if you don't like the game don't play it. All my kids starting playing around 8 years old and are perfectly well adjusted. All of us enjoy reading the lore and understand it for what it is, fiction. As for Star Wars as far as I understand most kids have seen it and think Stormtroopers are cool because they look it, lightsabers cutting people in half doesn't register as violent to them as it's, wait for it, fiction!

My parents let me watch The Young Ones, Filthy, Rich and Catflap and Bottom. Not to mention various horror films, Star Wars and so on as a nipper. I was reading horror novels, ghost stories, 2000ad, The Beano and The Dandy.

And now I’m a fairly left wing goon with a solid career in the financial sector.

Oh. How. They. Failed. Me.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
This is why you’d think any FLGS would have some kind of beginners events to invite people to.

This is one of the reasons I refuse to use the "FLGS" acronym as a catch-all, going with "independents" instead.

Doesn’t have to be terribly in depth, just the basic Move/Shoot/Fight and overall turn structure.

Not only does it suggest/pretend you care about your customers, but it can help them meet peers at a similar point in the hobby journey, and set them up with opponents once the basics are grasped.

I’m probably just being a grumpy old fart, but “go to our Discord” just isn’t the same, and reads to me as “I don’t want to talk to you”.

I agree with you for the most part, but I think it important to note that a lot of times these aren't "official" store Discords. They're run by members of the local gaming groups, for better or worse.

I know my local indie that I like has posters advertising a Discord, Facebook Group, and honest to god group-text that's all just for various games...but it's not run by the shop!

Warhammer 40,000 is better introduced through a game like Space Hulk or Space Crusade. Something that is simple in both game and contents to get up and running with minimal fuss.

The only other way I can think of is for GW to make a 40K version of Underworlds. It would be an instant success and a much easier way to draw in not only youngsters visiting a Warhammer store with their parents, but would also bring in those who simply find the 40K wargame too much hassle.

Saw this on Reddit and it seems relevant:

Shout out to the Birmingham UK Warhammer Staff

Popped in this afternoon with my son and we e been making our way through the Skaventide Box and he’s yet to play a game. We were chatting with one of the staff (I believe this name was Evan and I’m annoyed I didn’t ask for it so apologies) about paint scheme as he was painting the spearhead set for public. Anyway my son was really keen to have a go and get his head round it and Evan spent 90 mins going through and full turn for both the skaven and stormcast. Plus explaining everything including acting out some awesome explanations abilities. My son loved it. Really got his head round the game and came home with a renewed energy for finishing the Skaven. So thanks Evan for your time and attention you really did outstanding work.

So while they'd already bought the box, the staff member did put some effort it.

SamusDrake wrote:
Warhammer 40,000 is better introduced through a game like Space Hulk or Space Crusade. Something that is simple in both game and contents to get up and running with minimal fuss.

The only other way I can think of is for GW to make a 40K version of Underworlds. It would be an instant success and a much easier way to draw in not only youngsters visiting a Warhammer store with their parents, but would also bring in those who simply find the 40K wargame too much hassle.

Blackstone Fortress was really cool.

I do hope we get another one someday- the weirdos from BSF had a huge impact on the game- like the Technoarcheolist, Pious Vorne and Taddeus, and now Navigators coming on as a generic Agent. The Rogue Traders are all still around, though only the generic profile (represented by either of the three) is an official card, but they're still around, providing HQ for Naval units.