LoV seem like they're off to a good start. The impression I get playing against them is that everything they currently have is fine, but that they're kind of locked into just stat-checking opponents to death with heavy infantry and land fortresses.
So something to help expand their playstyle options, maybe? Units that deploy shields to keep squishier infantry alive? More stuff along the lines of bikes/sagitar to let them be mobile? Idk.
1. LoV lore is weak. I know this is a highly debatable point online. "Is LoV Grimdark enough" will perhaps run and run on Reddit etc - but I think there are sort of echos of Tau here. The answer depends very much on "do you just read what's in the Codex and take it straight" or do you read behind it? The argument turns into "look at this deep and dark lore" and "that's just your head canon, the text is fairly thin."
I think there's good ideas here - but they've not been developed and aren't the focus of the faction. Which leads us to...
2. Even if you accept the lore - its not represented very well "on the table". LoV "in game" are explicitly Dwarfs in Spaaace. Clones? Doesn't matter. Ironkin? Doesn't matter. Collapse of the Votann in general? Doesn't matter. What matters is that stuff gets grudged.
This isn't unique to LoV. I'd argue Dark Eldar are increasingly badly served in terms of "lore to actual in game feel". Its perhaps subjective - but it undermines my interest in the faction.
3. Perhaps another issue (although this one may vary) is that the army roster is thin.
Do you like Hernkyn? Well there's 2 units. If you max it out that's 810 points. Maybe that would be enough for a "theme" 20-30 years ago, but not really feeling it today.
Cthonians? There's one unit. Brokhyr? One unit and a character.
Okay you can just collect a 1000 points list and play at that level - but that's quite small.
I feel some armies have managed to get away with having a tiny roster - but feeling like there's quite a bit of potential build choice. I don't get that for LoV. Sure an army where you spent 600 points maxing out Beserks or Thunderkyn, or Hearthguard, or 3 Hekatons etc is going to be different to one where you take 1 or none. But its not overly exciting.
Imagine if Eldar had the choice of Guardian Defenders, Rangers, Jet Bikes, Dark Reapers, Howling Banshees and idk, Wraith Blades. The illusion of the different Craftworlds would still be here - but not really with enough to do very much to a list.
4. I think the models are also... variable. Some are very Dwarf - but others are kind of confused abhuman. I know some people like the style of the Necromunda ones more - and I probably agree but not that much.
Basically I think they need a second wave that expands out the various lines.
Tyel wrote: I think I said this a few months back.
For me.
1. LoV lore is weak. I know this is a highly debatable point online. "Is LoV Grimdark enough" will perhaps run and run on Reddit etc - but I think there are sort of echos of Tau here.
Something that every time is mentioned, comes across as being from someone who hasn't bothered to read their lore. A faction who's whole theming is to be the last true remnants of humanities golden age as a species of manufactured clone mining drones led by malfunctioning, senile super AI both of whom have been operating for 20,000 years longer than intended but who just carry on their tasks as if it makes no difference, who have a constant, unending desire to gather resources and knowledge to their own detriment not because they need it, but because they're paranoid survivalist preppers who just can't stop going "Well, what if we need it for something eventually?" where they're hoarding for some vague nebulous thing just for the sake of it, who view absolutely everything in terms of cost/benefit including their lives to the extent that their biggest punishment is to be exiled and not uploaded to the Votann core upon death basically making that particular kin effectively never having existed and everything they did meaningless (because the Kin themselves are basically a data/resource collection tool), who entirely believe that strength is all that really matters and will eagerly destroy entire ecosystems and planets inhabited or not just because they want more resources and beyond a sense of apathy won't give it a second thought, I don't know how you can see that sort of thing and go "Where's the Grimdark???".
The lore is weak in part because its only what a couple of years old now - Lets not forget Necron lore when they were new was mostly "They awaken from hidden tombs under worlds and just kill everything" and it was that way for quite a while.
Lore takes time to evolve and longer still for people to connect with it when you note that most people just about get through a website summary page or maybe the codex for a faction. Many people don't dip into novels and such so it takes time for the lore to flesh out casually to most people.
LoV could do with more models yes - that's the same issue almost all smaller GW armies have - AoS has multiple factions in that same boat.
Overread wrote: The lore is weak in part because its only what a couple of years old now - Lets not forget Necron lore when they were new was mostly "They awaken from hidden tombs under worlds and just kill everything" and it was that way for quite a while.
Lore takes time to evolve and longer still for people to connect with it when you note that most people just about get through a website summary page or maybe the codex for a faction. Many people don't dip into novels and such so it takes time for the lore to flesh out casually to most people.
LoV could do with more models yes - that's the same issue almost all smaller GW armies have - AoS has multiple factions in that same boat.
At the very least they should have had a novel at or near their launch. It's just baffling that it took 2 years for it to happen, and even then only because apparantly Gav Thorpe - an author who really likes Dwarfs - found out about them at exactly the same time we did, and eagerly asked to write a novel for them. A whole new faction should have been treated as a big deal and had a novel within their launch period, especially as that would obviously both help with sales of both the book and models, and give them more of an introduction to the setting.
Overread wrote: The lore is weak in part because its only what a couple of years old now - Lets not forget Necron lore when they were new was mostly "They awaken from hidden tombs under worlds and just kill everything" and it was that way for quite a while.
Lore takes time to evolve and longer still for people to connect with it when you note that most people just about get through a website summary page or maybe the codex for a faction. Many people don't dip into novels and such so it takes time for the lore to flesh out casually to most people.
Necrons were helped by the fact that they were supposed to be a mysterious new threat which nobody knew much about - so it didn't really matter too much if their Raiders background was thin on the ground (and it's not like adding loads more actually helped them much ultimately...)
Space Dwarves aren't supposed to be that - and unlike Necrons aren't just a White Dwarf mini-faction with nine (later a whole eleven!) models.
Tyel wrote: I think I said this a few months back.
For me.
1. LoV lore is weak. I know this is a highly debatable point online. "Is LoV Grimdark enough" will perhaps run and run on Reddit etc - but I think there are sort of echos of Tau here.
Something that every time is mentioned, comes across as being from someone who hasn't bothered to read their lore. A faction who's whole theming is to be the last true remnants of humanities golden age as a species of manufactured clone mining drones led by malfunctioning, senile super AI both of whom have been operating for 20,000 years longer than intended but who just carry on their tasks as if it makes no difference, who have a constant, unending desire to gather resources and knowledge to their own detriment not because they need it, but because they're paranoid survivalist preppers who just can't stop going "Well, what if we need it for something eventually?" where they're hoarding for some vague nebulous thing just for the sake of it, who view absolutely everything in terms of cost/benefit including their lives to the extent that their biggest punishment is to be exiled and not uploaded to the Votann core upon death basically making that particular kin effectively never having existed and everything they did meaningless (because the Kin themselves are basically a data/resource collection tool), who entirely believe that strength is all that really matters and will eagerly destroy entire ecosystems and planets inhabited or not just because they want more resources and beyond a sense of apathy won't give it a second thought, I don't know how you can see that sort of thing and go "Where's the Grimdark???".
Yeah, you know what?
NONE of that has ever come across to me during any game I've ever played involving them.
1st? None of the models present any real sort of GrimDark imagery.
2nd
Kill Team - to date the only type of game where I've ever used Votann. There's none of that background presented in that game. You can play KT & never learn anything about any of the factions, let alone Votann.
3rd
40k - I've not built & fielded a Votann force of my own (yet - I do have kits on my "to do" shelf though).
So my 40k experience with them is limited to about 6 or 7 games against them to date.
In none of those games did an opponent ever reference any rule or abilities that related to that lore.
It was just variations on to hit/wound/save effects (grudge tokens included).....
Maybe once I finally make my own force I'll be able to see a way to express thier lore? Or maybe more lore obvious rules will have arrived. A more Grimdark look I wouldn't bet on though.
So in the lore department I'd say they need it better represented in a playable way.
Tyel wrote: I think I said this a few months back.
For me.
1. LoV lore is weak. I know this is a highly debatable point online. "Is LoV Grimdark enough" will perhaps run and run on Reddit etc - but I think there are sort of echos of Tau here.
Something that every time is mentioned, comes across as being from someone who hasn't bothered to read their lore. A faction who's whole theming is to be the last true remnants of humanities golden age as a species of manufactured clone mining drones led by malfunctioning, senile super AI both of whom have been operating for 20,000 years longer than intended but who just carry on their tasks as if it makes no difference, who have a constant, unending desire to gather resources and knowledge to their own detriment not because they need it, but because they're paranoid survivalist preppers who just can't stop going "Well, what if we need it for something eventually?" where they're hoarding for some vague nebulous thing just for the sake of it, who view absolutely everything in terms of cost/benefit including their lives to the extent that their biggest punishment is to be exiled and not uploaded to the Votann core upon death basically making that particular kin effectively never having existed and everything they did meaningless (because the Kin themselves are basically a data/resource collection tool), who entirely believe that strength is all that really matters and will eagerly destroy entire ecosystems and planets inhabited or not just because they want more resources and beyond a sense of apathy won't give it a second thought, I don't know how you can see that sort of thing and go "Where's the Grimdark???".
Yeah, you know what?
NONE of that has ever come across to me during any game I've ever played involving them.
1st? None of the models present any real sort of GrimDark imagery.
2nd
Kill Team - to date the only type of game where I've ever used Votann. There's none of that background presented in that game. You can play KT & never learn anything about any of the factions, let alone Votann.
3rd
40k - I've not built & fielded a Votann force of my own (yet - I do have kits on my "to do" shelf though).
So my 40k experience with them is limited to about 6 or 7 games against them to date.
In none of those games did an opponent ever reference any rule or abilities that related to that lore.
It was just variations on to hit/wound/save effects (grudge tokens included).....
Maybe once I finally make my own force I'll be able to see a way to express thier lore? Or maybe more lore obvious rules will have arrived. A more Grimdark look I wouldn't bet on though.
So in the lore department I'd say they need it better represented in a playable way.
1st: Different factions have different aesthetics."Looking Grimdark" isn't some singular thing that applies to every faction and every miniature, it varies depending on what they're meant to be. It's readily apparent with the models of something like the Imperium because that is their theming, but even then you've got a variety of style and designs that are not that. That the Votann miniatures aren't some outright obvious grimdark design is because their theming is meant to be they represent the DAOT and what the Imperium could have been.
2nd: Try reading something like the lore of the Hernkyn Yaegir presented Killteam: Termination rulebook and then saying "there's no grimdark" to the Votann. It's unfortunate the books as part of sets aren't easily available, but there absolutely is lore for them there.
3rd: Rules aren't there to showcase that side of a faction / their lore, so it seems a bit strange to use that as an indication.
It sounds like you're basically going "I've not read their lore, but they aren't grimdark!". It's the lore that defines the grimdark of a faction for the most part, so of course if you completely ignore their lore you won't see much of it. That's not something that only applies to the Votann, If you hadn't read Eldar or Imperial Guard or even Space Marine lore you aren't going to get much of that side of them just their miniatures.
Having listened to the High Karl audiobook but not read much other Votann lore, I think it's fair to say that they're just one of the less grimdark factions in the setting. Which personally I think is fine. The setting has enough grim and dark to go around. You don't need to slap skulls and daemons on every available surface.
They're an extremely resource-conscious faction that has to continue extracting raw materials from a hostile galaxy to survive, all while fending off spooky aliens and dealing with the slow failure of the computers that are holding their society together.
They're like... Star Trek Voyager if it was set in the grimdarkness of the 41st millenium. That's a fun enough concept. They definitely don't detract from the rest of the setting just because they aren't lobotomizing eachother or getting possessed every five minutes. And if that's not edgy enough for you, that's fine; they might simply not be a good fit for you.
Like most of the new factions I'd say variety. Most of the new/split off factions have just enough datasheets to meet bare minimum. Just about every one of these new ones from Custodes to now probably need a second release of new sheets and kits.
Breton wrote: Like most of the new factions I'd say variety. Most of the new/split off factions have just enough datasheets to meet bare minimum. Just about every one of these new ones from Custodes to now probably need a second release of new sheets and kits.
That or a constant trickle of new models for a few campaign books in a row. The downside is that GW seems to really like doing hero/leader models for that. It's quick and small on mould costs, but at the same time for small armies it can quickly end up with them having way more options as leaders than they do as troops/monsters/machines and so forth. AoS shows this a lot - Fyreslayers for example have 2 troop model kits but a whole host of leaders that have been trickled-fed in.
For some reason GW doesn't like to trickle feed troops/monsters in as much
Breton wrote: Like most of the new factions I'd say variety. Most of the new/split off factions have just enough datasheets to meet bare minimum. Just about every one of these new ones from Custodes to now probably need a second release of new sheets and kits.
I regret getting my roommate to start Custodes. I didn't realize how much of the Adeptus Custodes was not in the regular Codex, but FW datasheets that are allowed for tournaments (and contain ridiculously expensive models - that are never in stock).
I feel like some of the codicies were released only because they felt like they were supposed to release a new book for the edition.
Votann, on the table, really start to lack variety when you get to larger games. Almost every game I've ever played of 40k is 2000 points, and at that level you start to run out of ways to play them in an effective manner, and you start to become REALLY predicable.
Game wise, I think they need at least one more battleline unit, one more elite infantry unit (differently themed), and a walker. I wouldn't mind some kind of hover vehicle either.
A jump pack unit is almost a given for their codex release. We'll see what else they get.
It's a really challenge for them introducing factions to the game now. Time was a faction release could be 4 kits and it'd be alright because most factions didn't have so many, but now many factions have a huge roster so any new faction, even if released with quite a few kits, will seem to be under developed.
That's a separate issue from what I think of as "Squad as Army Syndrome" that I think Grey Knights, Custodes, Tempestus Scions and Harlequins suffer from.
All they need is something interesting that you can build around - at the moment there are so few units you have to take a bit of everything just to get to a 2k list, this is a bit of a turn off for me as you kind of feel forced to get the models you like the least just to flesh out the army.
If I had my way though, there would be any of these 3 elements in the second wave:
1. Expand on the clones and drones lore. Star Wars has shown a decent story line around disposable armies of clones and mass produced machines, I think it would be cool to see some lesser clones used as fodder - it would be a nice excuse to get some more classically styled squat warrior models (flak armour and bolter infantry, wheeled trikes etc).
2. Modernised nods to old epic stuff. Land train with customisable number of carriages, or anything resembling a gyrocopter.
3. Necromunda squats get the imperial agents treatment.
Da Boss wrote: It's a really challenge for them introducing factions to the game now. Time was a faction release could be 4 kits and it'd be alright because most factions didn't have so many, but now many factions have a huge roster so any new faction, even if released with quite a few kits, will seem to be under developed.
That's a separate issue from what I think of as "Squad as Army Syndrome" that I think Grey Knights, Custodes, Tempestus Scions and Harlequins suffer from.
That was also probably before the Rule of Three. And that's about half of why they seem under developed. In theory I'd expect every faction two have at least two separate but roughly equally viable builds. That means more kits. Then to have either or both builds viable at 2K you're also looking at more kits (or at least datasheets on the same kit like Centurions/Guardians/Incursor-Infiltrators and so on) The final "driver" for feeling "under developed" is the variety and the holes in the army as a whole. Every faction is pretty much built around having strengths, weaknesses and things they completely miss. Space Marines miss "hordes" entirely. Necrons miss Psychics. yadda yadda. When you're missing half the (iconic battlefield units like light infantry, heavy infantry, light cav, heavy cav etc) you're not developed.
The question really is why LoV don't feel like they have variety. I mean they've got 5 infantry units, 1 unit of bikes and 2 vehicles. That's not Harlequins or Scions.
These can in turn usually be equipped with a range of different weapons that should provide additional optionality. (And might do with a decent Codex-update.)
Cynically though this is potentially the issue - because those weapons don't really change the unit. I mean take Hearthkyn. 2 S4 AP- 1 damage shots. Or 1 slightly shorter range S5 AP-2 1 damage shot. You can agonize over the specific maths - but from a casual consideration these are both relatively low damage options on slow infantry with minimal assault capability.
Its unclear say Hearthguard with plasma guns and concussion gauntlets represent a materially different unit to one with volkite and plasma gauntlets. The damage profile is different - but I'm not sure you'd "use" the unit in a completely different way.
It doesn't help that even if weapon options are actually significantly different, because you pay the same points regardless, there's no incentive to actually take one which might be mechanically somewhat weaker.
The kits are okey, and there is more of them then some other new factions. And if the theme is good enough a small number of units faction can do fine. DG are a good example of that. And GW, if they were not GW, could fix it by being less donkey-cave about what is in the kit=the rules.
Votan could be made different on the "clans" level. One clan suffers from genetic instability and their members are half or 2/3 robots instead of one here and there in other clans. Another clan could be the "new upstarts" all brawn and muscles doing science and "experiments". They could get more berzerks and/or berzerkers specific just to that one clan. All from the the same berzerker kit.
Then some sort of "From the Halls of Ancients" clan, the traditionalists, rich from tens of thousands of years spend minig the core.
But of course GW is not going to do that, because the very idea that someone could use the same kit for two units(or two games :shock: ) gives them a mind melt. And as Votan don't seem to have a strong faction within the studio they are going to get the same treatment other factions in the same position get. Kill team unit, a new hero when new codex comes and a 2ed wave every 10 years or so.
Lore wise they are as grim and dark as it gets. Miners, controled by an AI, designed on a gentic level to be more or less flesh robots. It is hard to imagine being more grim then that.
The question really is why LoV don't feel like they have variety. I mean they've got 5 infantry units, 1 unit of bikes and 2 vehicles. That's not Harlequins or Scions.
These can in turn usually be equipped with a range of different weapons that should provide additional optionality. (And might do with a decent Codex-update.)
Cynically though this is potentially the issue - because those weapons don't really change the unit. I mean take Hearthkyn. 2 S4 AP- 1 damage shots. Or 1 slightly shorter range S5 AP-2 1 damage shot. You can agonize over the specific maths - but from a casual consideration these are both relatively low damage options on slow infantry with minimal assault capability.
Its unclear say Hearthguard with plasma guns and concussion gauntlets represent a materially different unit to one with volkite and plasma gauntlets. The damage profile is different - but I'm not sure you'd "use" the unit in a completely different way.
Because wepons aren't really variety. 1 Bike fast mover, and 2 vehicle tanks and some foot sloggers aren't "variety". There's no Fight BATTLELINE - only one real FIGHT unit at all. You don't have the fast infantry, or the scouting light armored skirmishers, etc
I don't think the Votann being "insufficiently grimdark" is part of the issue at all. Plenty of other factions can fill the grimdark niche well enough for the needs of players who love skulls mounted on spikes. There are many players, myself included, who got into 40k primarily because it's the biggest game in town and are quite happy to be able to choose between different factions exhibiting a range of tones and moods, including some that are more idealistic.
Fluff-wise, my issue with Votann is that they seem to have been clumsily retconned into a game that had moved past them a long time ago, for the sole purpose of pandering to nostalgic 45-year-old players. Warhammer 40k may have started out as Tolkienesque fantasy in space, but it has since become its own thing. It doesn't need space dwarfs to balance out the space elves.
Da Boss wrote: That's a separate issue from what I think of as "Squad as Army Syndrome" that I think Grey Knights, Custodes, Tempestus Scions and Harlequins suffer from.
Can you explain this syndrome?
Are you talking about how their battleline squad acts as a template from which other units deviate too little, resulting in an army that's somewhat too uniform and not characterful enough?
-Guardsman- wrote: I don't think the Votann being "insufficiently grimdark" is part of the issue at all. Plenty of other factions can fill the grimdark niche well enough for the needs of players who love skulls mounted on spikes. There are many players, myself included, who got into 40k primarily because it's the biggest game in town and are quite happy to be able to choose between different factions exhibiting a range of tones and moods, including some that are more idealistic.
Fluff-wise, my issue with Votann is that they seem to have been clumsily retconned into a game that had moved past them a long time ago, for the sole purpose of pandering to nostalgic 45-year-old players. Warhammer 40k may have started out as Tolkienesque fantasy in space, but it has since become its own thing. It doesn't need space dwarfs to balance out the space elves.
They aren't there to balance out the space elves. They're there to try & draw $ out of peoples bank accounts.
Quixote wrote: I just think they aren't different enough to stand on their own. They look like short space marines.
If they brought something radically different to the game, I think people would be more interested in them.
I think that's why the Necromunda ones get a bit more attention - the 40K ones do have a good few basic infantry that look just a bit too much like mini-marines. Even though their vehicles and scout model really do look very different.
I think GW went with the rough-and-ready frontier style that's a bit like what Starcraft uses for their Marines.
Again I think we keep swinging back to the simple fact that the army just needs another chunky release to give more visual, design and tactical variety for them
-Guardsman- wrote: Fluff-wise, my issue with Votann is that they seem to have been clumsily retconned into a game that had moved past them a long time ago, for the sole purpose of pandering to
nostalgic 45-year-old players.
I find it so incredibly strange that GW made the decision to bring back Squats, and then produced a range with only the very barest Squat nostalgia. They're short-ish, and some of them have random vaguely dwarven bits awkwardly bolted on; and that's basically it. Even the background for them is essentially 'yeah those guys you remember were a fringe group that we're not going to mention'.
-Guardsman- wrote: Fluff-wise, my issue with Votann is that they seem to have been clumsily retconned into a game that had moved past them a long time ago, for the sole purpose of pandering to
nostalgic 45-year-old players.
I find it so incredibly strange that GW made the decision to bring back Squats, and then produced a range with only the very barest Squat nostalgia. They're short-ish, and some of them have random vaguely dwarven bits awkwardly bolted on; and that's basically it. Even the background for them is essentially 'yeah those guys you remember were a fringe group that we're not going to mention'.
Yep. These new dwarfish guys? Not Squats. They might as well just be a more fleshed out Tau auxiliary force....
Lets be fair Squats were removed from 40K in 1990. That's 35 years ago.
Since then they only had a few models in epic a little later in the 90s and that was mostly iconic by the big boxy train tank and leviathan tank.
Otherwise we basically had no art, no lore and no design work for a good 30years. Squats also never had super iconic original art that lasted the test of time like a lot of the Eldar artwork; which are honestly about the most faithful army to their original designs - almost all the others have gone through significant changes over the years (heck tyranids had 2 massive changes over the years).
It's such a long span that I suspect it was a lot easier to just start fresh with them; esp since a lot of hteir original lore was slightly on the more jovial side of the game at the time.
-Guardsman- wrote: Fluff-wise, my issue with Votann is that they seem to have been clumsily retconned into a game that had moved past them a long time ago, for the sole purpose of pandering to nostalgic 45-year-old players. Warhammer 40k may have started out as Tolkienesque fantasy in space, but it has since become its own thing. It doesn't need space dwarfs to balance out the space elves.
.
The same thing can be said about every faction in the game. None of them are "needed", that isn't why they're part of it, there was no "necessity" for any of them. They're instead added because GW sees a space for something and has an idea they think is worthwhile, they're added simply to appeal to different people who like different themes and designs.
The Leagues of Votann were added to appeal to players who like the idea of Space Dwarfs, as well as ontop of whatever nostalgia there may be for the classic Squat miniatures. They've been a part of 40k for decades and something that many wanted to see back, so now they are.
-Guardsman- wrote: Fluff-wise, my issue with Votann is that they seem to have been clumsily retconned into a game that had moved past them a long time ago, for the sole purpose of pandering to
nostalgic 45-year-old players.
ven the background for them is essentially 'yeah those guys you remember were a fringe group that we're not going to mention'.
No, no where in the lore is that mentioned or hinted at. The classic squats were not some specific league or random group of Kin who got wiped out or whatever, the Leagues of Votann on the whole have been retconned to be them.
-Guardsman- wrote: Fluff-wise, my issue with Votann is that they seem to have been clumsily retconned into a game that had moved past them a long time ago, for the sole purpose of pandering to
nostalgic 45-year-old players.
I find it so incredibly strange that GW made the decision to bring back Squats, and then produced a range with only the very barest Squat nostalgia. They're short-ish, and some of them have random vaguely dwarven bits awkwardly bolted on; and that's basically it. Even the background for them is essentially 'yeah those guys you remember were a fringe group that we're not going to mention'.
Yep. These new dwarfish guys? Not Squats. They might as well just be a more fleshed out Tau auxiliary force....
That's basically what they went with (just without the Tau connection) as they're basically the demiurg turned into a full faction. Their design is very similar to the concept art of them from years ago.
That's basically what they went with (just without the Tau connection) as they're basically the demiurg turned into a full faction. Their design is very similar to the concept art of them from years ago.
Yeah from what I recall Demiurge were basically what GW was going to re-release as dwarves in 40K.
I suspect core mech-suite Tau being so popular likely nudged them toward abandoning the idea of having lots of other xenos races in Tau so they never appeared outside of concept art and the BFG video game as a single ship.
Then when GW started going mad for tapping nostalgia and such they tested the waters with the Necromunda Squat and then BOOM went full army for the Votann
That's basically what they went with (just without the Tau connection) as they're basically the demiurg turned into a full faction. Their design is very similar to the concept art of them from years ago.
Yeah from what I recall Demiurge were basically what GW was going to re-release as dwarves in 40K.
I suspect core mech-suite Tau being so popular likely nudged them toward abandoning the idea of having lots of other xenos races in Tau so they never appeared outside of concept art and the BFG video game as a single ship.
Then when GW started going mad for tapping nostalgia and such they tested the waters with the Necromunda Squat and then BOOM went full army for the Votann
Something like that, yeah. The Demiurg were put into the Tau lore to have something that they could use to basically re-introduced the Squats to the setting, or at least some variation of that idea. It just took them almost 20 years to actually go back to them and do that.
Overread wrote: Lets be fair Squats were removed from 40K in 1990. That's 35 years ago.
They last appeared in the 91 catalog.
And I was ordering them in 92....
And (how ever hard it became to find models) they were a fully playable faction through 2e. Wich ended in 1998.
3e was when they were actually removed (no rules).
Okay, I'll bite. There are a few things that Votann need and will hopefully get whenever they get their 10th edition book:
-A full rework of Judgment Tokens. The current system is incredibly flawed and feels more and more like a placeholder. I feel like the stats should go back to the way they were in 9th (so BS3+ on everything) and the tokens should apply different buffs. Like maybe 1 token is reroll 1's to hit, 2 is reroll 1's to hit and wound, and maybe 3 is full rerolls to hit and reroll 1's to wound. IDK, reading that it sounds a little weak, but something like that would be nice. They need to have 3 steps of tokens like before and probably more ways to generate them as well so the army doesn't need the crutch of handing out a bunch for free at the start of the game.
-A second wave of models. As of right now, Votann have only 13 datasheets, the lowest number in the game, and 5 of those are characters. As for what new models they need specifically, I think some kind of jump troops would be a good addition, and maybe some kind of Dreadnought equivalent (the lore seems like it would easily support something like that, an ancestor's consciousness in a robotic body, or maybe an Ironkin). I would suggest an aircraft, but aircraft are kind of dogshit in 10th so idk if I'd care if they got one.
-A rebalance of the various weapon options wouldn't hurt. Right now, nobody is taking certain weapon options because they are just worse than others, so it gives false choices in list building. I'm aware that other armies also have this problem, but I think it's especially bad in Votann, especially combined with their small roster.
Overread wrote: Lets be fair Squats were removed from 40K in 1990. That's 35 years ago.
They last appeared in the 91 catalog.
And I was ordering them in 92....
And (how ever hard it became to find models) they were a fully playable faction through 2e. Wich ended in 1998.
3e was when they were actually removed (no rules).
Yeah the reference I found was going by the last date they were sold in a catalogue/store. I got the impression they as a model range vanished in the early 90s at least from 40K scale.
But still we are looking at a very long timespan without them.
Da Boss wrote: That's a separate issue from what I think of as "Squad as Army Syndrome" that I think Grey Knights, Custodes, Tempestus Scions and Harlequins suffer from.
Can you explain this syndrome?
Are you talking about how their battleline squad acts as a template from which other units deviate too little, resulting in an army that's somewhat too uniform and not characterful enough?
.
Sort of yeah. I mean that those are concepts that work brilliantly as an elite squad in an army, but are a bit thin when spread out over an entire army. Deathwatch fit in a similar way.
Da Boss wrote: That's a separate issue from what I think of as "Squad as Army Syndrome" that I think Grey Knights, Custodes, Tempestus Scions and Harlequins suffer from.
Can you explain this syndrome?
Are you talking about how their battleline squad acts as a template from which other units deviate too little, resulting in an army that's somewhat too uniform and not characterful enough?
.
Sort of yeah. I mean that those are concepts that work brilliantly as an elite squad in an army, but are a bit thin when spread out over an entire army. Deathwatch fit in a similar way.
I think conceptually some armies also fail. Inquisition, Harlies, Skaven Assassins - all of those are in the lore basically addons to main armies. They might be powerful factions in their own right, but the bulk of their major forces are nearly always the core faction they are apart of. Everything else they bring that's unique in the lore, story and background is more elite units that are the focal point, but also limited in number. So it becomes very hard to try and bulk them out into their own force because everything about them is attached to the core faction they came from.
This seems to be a stumbling block and its either the design team being unable to think/work/reach outside of what's already there (and this could be purely because they are bound by game lore and such); or its management unwilling to make a big investment in such development when the sales of the smaller force aren't enough to justify it - or its a combo of both working together.
The result is you get a tiny force that conceptually just feels wrong on so many fronts.
Now could some of those stand on their own with the right energy behind them - sure - but they have to be fully divorced from what is already there otherwise they just feel like a copy or echo. It's like how Genestealer Cults didn't feel like a "real" faction at launch cause it was basically the Imperial Guard with some symbols and the odd extra arm and one or two leaders. Now they have a fully different identity and style; sure they can still take some IG allies, but otherwise they have an entirely unique design that makes them FAR more exciting and interesting as a force.
So it CAN be done, but it took two waves of models and a big divergence from the core design to get there.
Da Boss wrote: Sort of yeah. I mean that those are concepts that work brilliantly as an elite squad in an army, but are a bit thin when spread out over an entire army. Deathwatch fit in a similar way.
Oh yeah, I totally get it. But GW seems to be moving away from that by folding those mini-factions into the closest major faction and creating specialized detachments for players who want, say, a more Tempestus-based Imperial Guard army. I think that's a good move.
In the case of Custodes, though, I'm not sure if that's possible. They may coordinate with other Imperial factions sometimes, but they kinda are their own thing, even when allied with Sisters of Silence as the Talons of the Emperor. You could also argue that Sisters of Silence would fit the Inquisition better (specifically for running the Black Ships and rounding up unsanctioned psykers).
To get back to the topic of Votann, forgive my ignorance of their lore, but I'm just not sure how an abhuman faction is allowed to exist in such a state of (semi?) independence from the Imperium. Are they simply considered innocuous enough that the Imperium has bigger fish to fry than bringing them into the fold? Do they inhabit worlds that are too high-grav for normal humans, and therefore the Imperium has no interest in colonizing them? Also, what are their relationships with various xenos, Chaos, etc.? Granted, they're still new to the setting (old Squats notwithstanding), and I'm sure this stuff will be fleshed out over time, but for now they seem to exist in a vacuum.
This may be part of why players aren't drawn to them. Sometimes you may be attracted to another faction via their interactions with your initial faction (such as an Imperial Guard player who gains an interest in the T'au by reading fluff about an Imperial-T'au war), but it's not easy with the Votann.
Overread wrote: So it CAN be done, but it took two waves of models and a big divergence from the core design to get there.
Mixed thoughts on this.
I mean I'd consider Custodes to be very limited. Yes you can round out with Forgeworld - but many (most?) don't. A lot won't even sully themselves with Sisters of Silence.
Despite this Custodes have been very popular - for a time possibly the go-to "new player" army in an unprecedented attack on the Marine-monopoly.
I don't really agree that LoV are "limited".
I mean what have they got?
1. Battleline light shooting Infantry Unit. Okay, no melee option - but not obviously essential.
2. Scout Infantry Unit. Can be equipped for melee. For fluff might be nice if these were Battleline but not obviously essential.
3. Dedicated Assault Infantry Unit. Can be equipped for 3 damage targets, or 1/2 damage variety.
4. Dedicated Shooty Infantry Unit.
5. Elite Tanky/Shooty/Punchy Infantry Unit
6. Bikes
7. Light Transport
8. Heavy Transport/Tank.
That's a reasonable range of units to work with. Okay they are missing a walker but I'm not sure what other unit archetypes are really missing here. If the units aren't "good" then that's a rules problem that could be changed.
So I feel the issue is at the wider imagination stage. Its subjective, but the faction just doesn't excite me. I can't think of anything especially exciting I'd like to do with it. I don't like the Judgement Token mechanic.
To get back to the topic of Votann, forgive my ignorance of their lore, but I'm just not sure how an abhuman faction is allowed to exist in such a state of (semi?) independence from the Imperium. Are they simply considered innocuous enough that the Imperium has bigger fish to fry than bringing them into the fold? Do they inhabit worlds that are too high-grav for normal humans, and therefore the Imperium has no interest in colonizing them? Also, what are their relationships with various xenos, Chaos, etc.? Granted, they're still new to the setting (old Squats notwithstanding), and I'm sure this stuff will be fleshed out over time, but for now they seem to exist in a vacuum.
A combination of not knowing about them, being isolated and keeping to themselves (until recently), and being in the most hostile place in the galaxy. The "Leagues of Votann" aren't meant to be something that anyone is aware of, with the various encounters with the Kin being mis-identified as all sorts of different alien species that no one quite realizes were all the same. The few times when they are consistently identified, they're "The Squats" to the Imperium. So they don't know they exist beyond the occasional encounter, and aren't aware they are in the galactic core, which is one of the most dangerous places in the galaxy that's difficult to move around in let alone actually do anything.
How they interact with others various, but for the most part with the ones that are more reasonable, it's a basically apathy unless they have something they can benefit from. They'll trade and interact reasonably when it's convenient for them, but if using their forces instead were a less costly way of getting what they want then they'd do that, because the Kin think power is what really matters. Chaos, Dark Eldar, and the Mechanicus are avoided though.
Quixote wrote:I just think they aren't different enough to stand on their own. They look like short space marines.
If they brought something radically different to the game, I think people would be more interested in them.
Quixote wrote:Maybe if they had a cool centerpiece model that stood out...
Yeah, this stuff here. Games Workshop honestly gakked up the release of Leagues of Votann. Not only did they decide to release them a few months before a new edition came out, but they then waited 2 years before releasing a lore book featuring them. I get non-Imperium armies aren't the main focus of Games Workshop, but that was pathetic even by GW standards.
Overall though, Leagues of Votann don't have a great niche. No great niche gamplay-wise or lore-wise. On the tabletop, they look and play like short Space Marines who can destroy high-value targets of your opponents easier I guess? Lore-wise, they're just Deep Rock Galactic, but 40k.
Gameplay-wise I'd have the Leagues of Votann be terrain manipulators, they're supposed to be miners and extreme capitalists after all! Have special abilities, Enhancements, and Stratagems that allow them to summon cover & remove cover (or just ignore it for gameplay purposes). Instead of just making them tanky all the time, have them be highly durable when they're in cover, but comparatively fragile when they're out of cover or are flanked. Give them Psychic powers that allow them to damage either units in cover or highly durable units (like the old Grav). You can have HQ units keep the grudge mechanic, but it honestly ain't interesting enough on its own to carry a whole faction. Also have a couple centerpiece models or huge vehicles that have the 9th Beam weapons. That and old blast templates are great for very special units and stratagems, but you don't want it to happen too often or otherwise it really slow down the game and kills movement.
Lore-wise, I actually like the idea of hyper-capitalists run by a supercomputer. There should be more computocracies in popular science-fiction, especially with the ongoing AI boom.The Votann can almost be like the cyborg versions of the Tyranids. Showing up to a place, exploiting it to its full extent, and then leaving nothing but a husk behind. All in the pursuit of power and profits as determined by the almighty algorithm. Although unlike the Tyranids, you can actually negotiate with the Votann and they're regime is ran by humanoids.
I'd like to see more of the Iron Kin, like a full unit.
They need a flyer, and gyrocopter would work- maybe even a transport large copter and a unit of 3 small copters- kinda like Orks, only sleek.
The need a super heavy, and the Land Train works.
Personally (and I know it'll never happen) I want one of the giant floating heads that was in the preview art.
I'd like to have seen the spec ops content for their Kill Teams in KT21. That content is usually game-applied Lore- particularly the assets. I've seen their Crusade Content- WD had an article which was (according to the Goons) little more than a cosmetic update to the 9th ed bespoke content. This might mean that there's design space for new Crusade content when the dex drops, leaving the WD as extra content. Again, for me this stuff really helps translate the lore to the table better than the core mechanics of the matched-play pick-up game.
It will also be nice for them to have detachments - right now, they've only got 2.
They need to bring out the unique flavours they have in their background more than they currently do.
If you look at the way they work, they are actually quite similar thematically to the lizardmen. Because they are a created race that is spawned for specific purposes. Yet we don't see them spawn mega dwarfs the size of ogryns, winged dwarfs or 4 armed dwarfs for combat.
Where is the white mohawk spawning that generate a psychic gestalt shield that gives their friendly troops cover or something?
We also don't have nearly enough ironkin options. They can be built in whatever format you like, so why haven't they spawned mecha ironkin, giant ancestors staute warriors like the cathay terracotta sentinels.
What about termite mecha suits that are an ironkin with a kin inside them, combining them into a drill punching dreadnought squad they burrows under the enemy?
Orbital drop Menhirs that are automated mobile bastions with an ancestor face on each side.
The sheer lack of creativity on the part of the Votann or squats in general is entirely user error and always has been.
Hellebore wrote: What about termite mecha suits that are an ironkin with a kin inside them, combining them into a drill punching dreadnought squad they burrows under the enemy?
I'll pass on Headmaster Transformer Votann, if that's OK?
Hellebore wrote: What about termite mecha suits that are an ironkin with a kin inside them, combining them into a drill punching dreadnought squad they burrows under the enemy?
I'll pass on Headmaster Transformer Votann, if that's OK?
What if he connects with other Votann and powers up becoming Voltrann?
Quixote wrote:I just think they aren't different enough to stand on their own. They look like short space marines.
If they brought something radically different to the game, I think people would be more interested in them.
Quixote wrote:Maybe if they had a cool centerpiece model that stood out...
Lore-wise, they're just Deep Rock Galactic, but 40k.
There's already much more to them than that, but I don't see the problem with Space Dwarfs being Space Dwarfs anyway. It's kinda the whole point of having them.
I just prefer the Mantic Forgefather miniatures, especially the enclosed helmet troopers.
I remember trying to order Codex Squats from Mail Order in probably...1997? The poor Troll on the end of the line was a bit baffled and had to explain that they didn't actually make that, which shocked me because Codex Squats was advertisd in the 2e boxed set. I ended up getting 3 Squat Bikers instead, and I still have 2 of them! I cobbled together a squat list from Slayers with Bolt Pistols and Thunderers.
The new Votaan have really cool background, I think it's a really interesting Sci Fi concept and I'm glad they did it, but what attracted me to the original Squats was the fact that they were a bunch of hard drinking space dwarves with a much heavier emphasis on the Dwarf end of things.
Over time my tastes shifted to thinking Demiurg were cooler than another bunch of abhumans (more xenos is more better). So it's funny to think that while I was really excited about Squats as a kid I haven't touched the offical GW release which is pretty well done in my view...I just had too long to marinate and develop highly specific tastes in my Space Dwarves!
Hellebore wrote: What about termite mecha suits that are an ironkin with a kin inside them, combining them into a drill punching dreadnought squad they burrows under the enemy?
I'll pass on Headmaster Transformer Votann, if that's OK?
Good because that's not what i said.
Take a kastelan style robot, with the head being ironkin, and put a kin inside its chest making it a union between the two reflecting the equal position they both hold. Similar to a wraithknight but at the scale of a kastelan. Give it heavy dreadnought seige drills and allow them to make their own tunnels to emerge. Far less ridiculous than a centurion and GW has no issue with those.
The iron kin is contained within the featureless head component, their bodies can be anything. Allowing them to have a kin copilot creates interesting opportunities and ties into the background of the faction in unique ways.
Take a kastelan style robot, with the head being ironkin, and put a kin inside its chest making it a union between the two reflecting the equal position they both hold. Similar to a wraithknight but at the scale of a kastelan. Give it heavy dreadnought seige drills and allow them to make their own tunnels to emerge. Far less ridiculous than a centurion and GW has no issue with those.
The iron kin is contained within the featureless head component, their bodies can be anything. Allowing them to have a kin copilot creates interesting opportunities and ties into the background of the faction in unique ways.
I definitely think the Necromunda Squats are more visually interesting than their Kin counterparts, to the point where if I were to do a LoV army I'd use Necromunda proxies for them. The necro models get it. These are miners and prospectors who sometimes go to war, their equipment is advanced but it's industrial tech first, repurposed for war.
Space Marines are all smooth curves and shock and awe
Squats are rivets and visors and rock and ore. Every game against a LoV army should look like your army has just stumbled upon a worksite and pissed off the workers
Right now the LoV visual style is "Mecha-norse", but it's not even pulling that off particularly well, it gets across the "high tech" feel, barely, but it's not very distinctive.
Charax wrote: I definitely think the Necromunda Squats are more visually interesting than their Kin counterparts, to the point where if I were to do a LoV army I'd use Necromunda proxies for them. The necro models get it. These are miners and prospectors who sometimes go to war, their equipment is advanced but it's industrial tech first, repurposed for war.
Space Marines are all smooth curves and shock and awe
Squats are rivets and visors and rock and ore. Every game against a LoV army should look like your army has just stumbled upon a worksite and pissed off the workers
Right now the LoV visual style is "Mecha-norse", but it's not even pulling that off particularly well, it gets across the "high tech" feel, barely, but it's not very distinctive.
IMO they didn't need to incorporate a hitech look because the sophistication needn't be aesthetic, only functional which is in keeping with dwarfs. Their nail gun might look very basic, but it's actually a miniature graviton cannon.
If they'd just taken the 'hitech by default' approach they could have designed things however they wanted, because it would always be hitech, regardless of its appearance. They could even use that as a military strategy, using prosaic designs deliberately to make them appear like an easy mark, when in actual fact they're packing weaponry that makes the tech priests jealous.
Charax wrote: I definitely think the Necromunda Squats are more visually interesting than their Kin counterparts, to the point where if I were to do a LoV army I'd use Necromunda proxies for them. The necro models get it. These are miners and prospectors who sometimes go to war, their equipment is advanced but it's industrial tech first, repurposed for war.
Space Marines are all smooth curves and shock and awe
Squats are rivets and visors and rock and ore. Every game against a LoV army should look like your army has just stumbled upon a worksite and pissed off the workers
Right now the LoV visual style is "Mecha-norse", but it's not even pulling that off particularly well, it gets across the "high tech" feel, barely, but it's not very distinctive.
I don't see how that isn't the case if you actually take a closer look at the Votann models, though.
They aren't going around in ultra-high tech futuristic gear. It's ordinary wheels, trenchcoats and mundane hats, segmented attached metal plates and armour pannels bolted on, equipment with rivets/bolts/screws all over the place, typical non-powered hammers and screwdrivers.....
There is a single unit the Votann have that isn't "industrial tech first, repurposed for war.", and that's the Einhyr Exo-armour. The Hearthkyn are civilian militia wearing their typical industrial-use space suit. The Pioneers are their scouts and explorers who when not fighting are searching for resources. The Brokkyr are just their everyday "engineers", which can include everything from spaceship repair to being a chef. There's a unit from the Mining guild etc.
I think you also have to take into account is what the Votann are meant to represent; they're the last true remnants of the DAOT. Their theming is a DAOT colony of explorers and craftsmen, going out to fight to defend their territory and secure more resources. .
The amount of armies that are just different colour schemes of power armour should suggest there's no issue with having recurring themes.
IMO they should go down the votann aesthetic of ornate ancestor heads and carvings on more things for the higher spec stuff rather than just hitech.
They should look like reverred walking monuments to the votann and their culture rather than just relatively generic space amour with some runes.
IMO the iron kin would have looked so much more interesting if they were built with sculpted visages and bodies, like walking dwarf golems with stylised faces etc.
The viking-baroque style would help make them look more interesting.
Hellebore wrote: What about termite mecha suits that are an ironkin with a kin inside them, combining them into a drill punching dreadnought squad they burrows under the enemy?
I'll pass on Headmaster Transformer Votann, if that's OK?
What if he connects with other Votann and powers up becoming Voltrann?
Someone needs to put a Land Train and a version of Raiden in front of the design team, and it can become a whole sub-theme
Hellebore wrote: The amount of armies that are just different colour schemes of power armour should suggest there's no issue with having recurring themes.
IMO they should go down the votann aesthetic of ornate ancestor heads and carvings on more things for the higher spec stuff rather than just hitech.
They should look like reverred walking monuments to the votann and their culture rather than just relatively generic space amour with some runes.
IMO the iron kin would have looked so much more interesting if they were built with sculpted visages and bodies, like walking dwarf golems with stylised faces etc.
The viking-baroque style would help make them look more interesting.
I a m really glad they did not do that. I am also glad they're not old school squats. I think the aesthetics they chose are excellent. Granted, I have some small gripes, but those are more about the execution.
I have never liked any dwarf archetype before, but I do like the Leagues. I think their practical DAOT stuff is a breath of fresh air to overly stuffy and stagnant 40K. That being said, this probably means a lot of people who like classic dwarf stuff might not find them that appealing.
I think game-wise they have not really found their groove though, and I am not quite sure what they should do about it. 40K has so many factions that is hard to introduce new unique playstyles. But they need more units though, that is obvious. And like some have already said, they should do more with the ironkin. They're a cool concept, but game wise they might as well not exist. They're just couple of hanger on assistants or models that mechanically do not differ from living squats in any way. So I think expanding ironkin would be an obvious way to emphasise the lore and fill the unit roster at the same time.
Hellebore wrote: The amount of armies that are just different colour schemes of power armour should suggest there's no issue with having recurring themes.
IMO they should go down the votann aesthetic of ornate ancestor heads and carvings on more things for the higher spec stuff rather than just hitech.
They should look like reverred walking monuments to the votann and their culture rather than just relatively generic space amour with some runes.
IMO the iron kin would have looked so much more interesting if they were built with sculpted visages and bodies, like walking dwarf golems with stylised faces etc.
The viking-baroque style would help make them look more interesting.
I have never liked any dwarf archetype before, but I do like the Leagues. I think their practical DAOT stuff is a breath of fresh air to overly stuffy and stagnant 40K. That being said, this probably means a lot of people who like classic dwarf stuff might not like them that appealing.
This is the sort of thing that shows the issues with the Votann; Space Dwarfs who don't appeal very well to those who like Space Dwarfs but instead to those who don't want that. It somewhat defeats the point of having them in the first place.
Genestealer Cults are the miners and industrial workers from a developed world who have gone to war.
They have rag-tag equipment, repurposed items, some military hardware here and there, mutation everywhere and such
Leagues are more the prospectors and early miners who are going to war as they expand. They are organised, formal and whilst they might be wearing a duster and carry shotgun shells on their hip they have that more successful prospecting township approach.
Their equipment is more exploratory/rugged/advanced and designed for a purpose rather than repurposed and cobbled together.
Mentlegen324 wrote: This is the sort of thing that shows the issues with the Votann; Space Dwarfs who don't appeal very well to those who like Space Dwarfs but instead to those who don't want that. It somewhat defeats the point of having them in the first place.
The same could be said about a lot of armies this edition. Both looks and game play wise. The GK stuff for example, is old and is going to stay old (which per se isn't bad, as long as you don't use power armoured dudes), but their game play has nothing of the knight paladins fighting demons feel. Ton of people hate how modern marines look and feel. But that is more of a 10th ed problem, how terrain and missions are structured, you need infiltrators, uppy downy units, 13-14 units , even for marine/elite armies etc. Makes all armies feel very the same, with the differential being how broken they are. Both ways too. Some armies play the same lists as everyone else, but they are broken (bad), while others feel as if they had 2500pts and one extra rule on each unit. And esthethics in something that has a clear winner and loser, can only carry a faction to a certain degree. Now if Votan, were not Votan, but "Dwarfs in Space" the community would not be much larger, but it would be very resilient to GW rules changes. But Votan are one of those armies that had OP rules (nerfed pre codex release), odd esthethics and are suppose to appeal to a group of God only knows who. Well guess not everyone can be Cathay.
The Votann vehicles look like explorers. If they had made their fluff that they were engineered to go beyond our galaxy or into places no mortal dared to tread, I think the army would work better than they do right now.
Quixote wrote: The Votann vehicles look like explorers. If they had made their fluff that they were engineered to go beyond our galaxy or into places no mortal dared to tread, I think the army would work better than they do right now.
Beyond our Galaxy? That's an unfathomable amount of distance to travel. The Silent King didn't even get anywhere before he had to turn back and that took more millennia than humanity has been around in. The only things out there are Tyranids and even they take an insane amount of time to travel that distance.
Explorers yes but you can't just hop to another galaxy
Quixote wrote: The Votann vehicles look like explorers. If they had made their fluff that they were engineered to go beyond our galaxy or into places no mortal dared to tread, I think the army would work better than they do right now.
Beyond our Galaxy? That's an unfathomable amount of distance to travel. The Silent King didn't even get anywhere before he had to turn back and that took more millennia than humanity has been around in. The only things out there are Tyranids and even they take an insane amount of time to travel that distance.
Explorers yes but you can't just hop to another galaxy
There are bits in the fluff that talk about people traveling outside our galaxy. In the beginning of the HH series (before book 4) there are Tech-Priests talking about Golden Age humans traveling to other galaxies.
The Space Marine Chapter, The Carcharodons, have their home fleet based in the void above the Galactic plane
From the 5th edition Space Wolves codex:
THE LOST COMPANY OF SVENGAR THE RED
Sailing through a wyrmhole in search of his lost Primarch, SVENGAR the Red finds himself and his men transported far beyond the rim of the galaxy, past even the Ghost Stars. The void is empty as a heretic’s soul. Svengar’s men begin to talk of whispered voices in the night, promising them safe haven. Unsure of his coordinates, Svengar presses on. Days pass into months. On the cusp of turning back, a dark planet is glimpsed in the distance. The Space Wolves head towards the distant orb, expecting trouble. Instead they find a civilisation of tall, fair people who live in opulent luxury of their own making, far from the war and confusion of the galactic core. Relieved to have found a base of operations, Svengar and his men begin to relax and enjoy themselves, feasting and recounting tales of their deeds to the fair people of the far-flung world. It is only when Svengar makes a casual pass at one of their women that the Space Wolves realise their hosts are not people at all. Though they fight bravely, Svengar and his men are never seen or heard from again.
Then you have this tidbit that's been floating around the net for 20 years:
Millennia ago, a probe was sent out from Terra. Its mission was to reach the utmost limits of the universe. The Techpriests who built it hoped that one day it would arrive back to its place of origin having circumnavigated the universe, or in other words, skirted the edge of reality. This probe is still sending back signals after fourteen thousand years adrift. The signals are faint and the probe is not yet on its way back, if it ever will come back. To the utter despair of the Imperial Techpriests who constantly monitor the incoming signals, many are identified as Orkish. The depressing conclusion for mankind can only be this: that wherever they go, the Orks will always be with them.
I'm sure there's more.
But the Votann could easily be DAoT explorers. I think it would've made a better backstory for them beyond miners and traders of the galactic core.
I'd just like the lore as it stands to be more present on the tabletop. "We are information and resource gathering instruments to an ancient computer system that's breaking down" is quite different to "that's a grudging."
Aesthetically I think they also try and straddle too much.
Dwarves in Spaaace
Power Armour into Tau Armour
"NASA-Punk"
DAOT (not convinced this appears aesthetically, more just in naming conventions.)
Leather Coat-wearing rugged survivalists/ preppers.
The problem I feel is almost every unit takes these themes in a different proportion to the rest. Unless you like all of them equally, you are probably going to have quite a divergent idea on which models you like from the range.
Millennia ago, a probe was sent out from Terra. Its mission was to reach the utmost limits of the universe. The Techpriests who built it hoped that one day it would arrive back to its place of origin having circumnavigated the universe, or in other words, skirted the edge of reality. This probe is still sending back signals after fourteen thousand years adrift. The signals are faint and the probe is not yet on its way back, if it ever will come back. To the utter despair of the Imperial Techpriests who constantly monitor the incoming signals, many are identified as Orkish. The depressing conclusion for mankind can only be this: that wherever they go, the Orks will always be with them.
Or the probe crash-landed on an ork world generations ago and just keeps sending back signals getting weaker and weaker as its power-reserves drain. Or as an ork has fun poking fun at them by messing with the probe
That said there's a big difference between a few months of travel outside the Galactic Rim or such and actually hitting another Galaxy. So yes 100% having elements far above the general region of the Milky Way makes sense - however actually going beyond to another Galaxy is basically an impossibility outside of perhaps a "happened once and no one is 100% sure it happened" kind of story. The distances are just insanely vast to another Galaxy
Quixote wrote: The Votann vehicles look like explorers. If they had made their fluff that they were engineered to go beyond our galaxy or into places no mortal dared to tread, I think the army would work better than they do right now.
Quixote wrote: The Votann vehicles look like explorers. If they had made their fluff that they were engineered to go beyond our galaxy or into places no mortal dared to tread, I think the army would work better than they do right now.
Beyond our Galaxy? That's an unfathomable amount of distance to travel. The Silent King didn't even get anywhere before he had to turn back and that took more millennia than humanity has been around in. The only things out there are Tyranids and even they take an insane amount of time to travel that distance.
Explorers yes but you can't just hop to another galaxy
But the Votann could easily be DAoT explorers. I think it would've made a better backstory for them beyond miners and traders of the galactic core.
...but that is their lore? They're implied to be heavily linked to the Men of Stone and the Men of Iron. They're a DAOT tool sent out by humanity to gather and explore, still carrying out their programming 20,000 years later alongside their AI overseers, and have been adapted to survive in the most hostile area of the galaxy where they've been all along.
They're not just miners and traders who happen to be in the galactic core. They're the last true remnants of the DAOT, manufactured mining/resource gathering/exploration drones who were abandoned/forgetten but have been carrying on as if it made no difference because they might not even realize (or care) what they really are.
Tyel wrote: I'd just like the lore as it stands to be more present on the tabletop. "We are information and resource gathering instruments to an ancient computer system that's breaking down" is quite different to "that's a grudging."
Aesthetically I think they also try and straddle too much.
Dwarves in Spaaace
Power Armour into Tau Armour
"NASA-Punk"
DAOT (not convinced this appears aesthetically, more just in naming conventions.)
Leather Coat-wearing rugged survivalists/ preppers.
The problem I feel is almost every unit takes these themes in a different proportion to the rest. Unless you like all of them equally, you are probably going to have quite a divergent idea on which models you like from the range.
That's because different units of theirs are meant to represent different roles in their society, who have their own identities and styles.
The earliest origins of the Kin lie aboard voidfaring mining vessels... Thus, Kin society has formed a rigid survivalist culture, one bent towards resolute toil and the acquisition of resources. This attitude has led other species to view the Kin as driven by greed alone.
Pg. 77:
They also note that the Kin were a clone species from the beginning, that the Ironkin have been with them since those earliest days and that they set out as resource gatherers to prospect for, mine and harvest the riches of the galactic void.
The earliest origins of the Kin lie aboard voidfaring mining vessels... Thus, Kin society has formed a rigid survivalist culture, one bent towards resolute toil and the acquisition of resources. This attitude has led other species to view the Kin as driven by greed alone.
Pg. 77:
They also note that the Kin were a clone species from the beginning, that the Ironkin have been with them since those earliest days and that they set out as resource gatherers to prospect for, mine and harvest the riches of the galactic void.
I'm not sure what you're trying to show by quoting those?
The origins of the Kin are the DAOT colonization fleets sent out across the galaxy. The "first ancestors" were sent out in generation ships, and at some point the Kin were created, an engineered species of clones designed to survive in the most hostile area to the galaxy. The "first ancestors" vanished, leaving just the Kin and the Votann cores. It's implied with all of that there's some connection to the Men of Gold and Men of Stone.
They're mining, colonization, resource gathering and exploration drones from the DAOT.
The origins of the Kin are the DAOT colonization fleets sent out across the galaxy. The "first ancestors" were sent out in generation ships, and at some point the Kin were created, an engineered species of clones designed to survive in the most hostile area to the galaxy. The "first ancestors" vanished, leaving just the Kin and the Votann cores. It's implied with all of that there's some connection to the Men of Gold and Men of Stone.
They're mining, colonization, resource gathering and exploration drones from the DAOT.
Everything I've read is that they were created to be miners sent to the galactic core, nowhere else.
I've seen them attached to references to to pre-Imperial Generational Ships. But those ships (as they were apart of the Long March) ending up as what we now know as Knight Houses... and those Ships were pointed away towards the galactic rim.
The army is likely to get a bit more diversity of play once the dex drops- so far I think every dex has provided at least 4 detachments. Sure, they USUALLY lean into specific subgroups of units, but you're likely to find something you find more reflective of the elements of their lore that most appeal to your personal tastes.
I think I mentioned this already, but their Crusade content very clearly defines them as miners/ salvagers/ resource gatherers. It has been available via White Dwarf since very early in the edition, and according to the Goons, it's pretty much an update from the content in their 9th dex.
With all that said, range expansion is always good, and I'd like to see additional units for the army. I haven't bought in- I can't afford to start a new army, and I'm neither painting or playing as much as I should be.
The origins of the Kin are the DAOT colonization fleets sent out across the galaxy. The "first ancestors" were sent out in generation ships, and at some point the Kin were created, an engineered species of clones designed to survive in the most hostile area to the galaxy. The "first ancestors" vanished, leaving just the Kin and the Votann cores. It's implied with all of that there's some connection to the Men of Gold and Men of Stone.
They're mining, colonization, resource gathering and exploration drones from the DAOT.
Everything I've read is that they were created to be miners sent to the galactic core, nowhere else.
I've seen them attached to references to to pre-Imperial Generational Ships. But those ships (as they were apart of the Long March) ending up as what we now know as Knight Houses... and those Ships were pointed away towards the galactic rim.
They weren't sent beyond the galaxy. But you also said "or places no mortal dared to tread".
The Kin were engineered to explore and mine and colonize areas in the galactic core, the most hostile area of the galaxy that's filled with all manner of absurd, terrifying things and hazardous cosmic phenomena, with everything from black holes, to planets with esoteric and unique gravity, radiation etc, to hungry, sentient nebula. It's a part of the galaxy others can barely venture in, let alone survive.
Their theming is the last remnants of the DAOT, representing what the Imperium could have been with a faction of worker drones who have been left on for 20,000 years too long, still carrying out their original purpose alongside their now malfunctioning almost supernaturally powerful AI overseers. They're a society of craftsmen, miners and explorers, as a tool that's a holdover from the DAOT.
The only issue I have is the AI cores. They feel like a forced retcon.
The Long March ships were sent with Martian Tech Priests and no AI anything. [M16 - Human Exodus] We know this because a lot of them landed and set up Knight Worlds or Forge Worlds, like Ryza.
It seems odd that the same groups at the same time, were sending AI ships into the galactic core.
Quixote wrote: The only issue I have is the AI cores. They feel like a forced retcon.
The Long March ships were sent with Martian Tech Priests and no AI anything. [M16 - Human Exodus] We know this because a lot of them landed and set up Knight Worlds or Forge Worlds, like Ryza.
It seems odd that the same groups at the same time, were sending AI ships into the galactic core.
Where is that from specifically? Regardless, that some ships were sent like that doesn't mean every single ship sent during the 10,000 years or so of the DAOT was also like that.
The lore we have had for decades on the Men of Gold/Stone/Iron is that humanity sent out the Men of Stone to colonize the stars, before eventually figuring out how to send ordinary humans alongside them. The Leagues of Votann are a reference to that lore, with their codex having a whole section heavily hinting to the mysterious origin of the Kin and connecting them back to an entity called "Votann", who may be a person or a group or not even organic, and is known by names such as "stonemind" or depicted a golden entity; hints of the Men of Gold and the Men of Stone.
I think they're a great addition to 40K as the natural-rivals to the Eldar. While Squats feel like a part of the Imperium, Votann are their own thing.
My only criticism of their introduction was not having rules to use one in Blackstone Fortress. A Grimnyr, with their two CORVs, would have been an excellent choice as a lone explorer...
Lathe Biosas wrote: The Burning of Prospero talks about the Long March, where mankind left the solar system on generational ships that used sublight engines.
The Long March ships are what gave us the Knight Worlds and the Forge Worlds.
The Long March is also mentioned in all the Imperial Knights Codecies... and gives the M16 date for when humanity left our solar system for the stars.
And now the Leagues of Votann lore has expanded on this a bit further, although not to any clear degree as it's all vague and mysterious.
Lathe Biosas wrote: The Burning of Prospero talks about the Long March, where mankind left the solar system on generational ships that used sublight engines.
The Long March ships are what gave us the Knight Worlds and the Forge Worlds.
The Long March is also mentioned in all the Imperial Knights Codecies... and gives the M16 date for when humanity left our solar system for the stars.
And now the Leagues of Votann lore has expanded on this a bit further, although not to any clear degree as it's all vague and mysterious.
The issue is the AI component, the Tech Priests of Mars were a vital component of the Long March in setting up new settlements and Forgeworlds.
I Know that all this happened before the Long Night, but the Martian Priesthood has always been anti-AI, and it feels shoehorned to me to say that some of the Long March ships had extensive Artificial Intelligences.
I'm fine with the Kin being Clones and being sent into the core, it's just that the AI doesn't seem to fit in the timeline.
Now, if they had found the AI in the core-that would be an interesting twist that I would feel works better.
Lathe Biosas wrote: The Burning of Prospero talks about the Long March, where mankind left the solar system on generational ships that used sublight engines.
The Long March ships are what gave us the Knight Worlds and the Forge Worlds.
The Long March is also mentioned in all the Imperial Knights Codecies... and gives the M16 date for when humanity left our solar system for the stars.
And now the Leagues of Votann lore has expanded on this a bit further, although not to any clear degree as it's all vague and mysterious.
The issue is the AI component, the Tech Priests of Mars were a vital component of the Long March in setting up new settlements and Forgeworlds.
I Know that all this happened before the Long Night, but the Martian Priesthood has always been anti-AI, and it feels shoehorned to me to say that some of the Long March ships had extensive Artificial Intelligences.
I'm fine with the Kin being Clones and being sent into the core, it's just that the AI doesn't seem to fit in the timeline.
Now, if they had found the AI in the core-that would be an interesting twist that I would feel works better.
Citation on the bolded bit?
I was under the impression that the Imperium, Mars included, were overusing AI to the point of when it revolted, they had serious issues.
Lathe Biosas wrote: The Burning of Prospero talks about the Long March, where mankind left the solar system on generational ships that used sublight engines.
The Long March ships are what gave us the Knight Worlds and the Forge Worlds.
The Long March is also mentioned in all the Imperial Knights Codecies... and gives the M16 date for when humanity left our solar system for the stars.
And now the Leagues of Votann lore has expanded on this a bit further, although not to any clear degree as it's all vague and mysterious.
The issue is the AI component, the Tech Priests of Mars were a vital component of the Long March in setting up new settlements and Forgeworlds.
I Know that all this happened before the Long Night, but the Martian Priesthood has always been anti-AI, and it feels shoehorned to me to say that some of the Long March ships had extensive Artificial Intelligences.
I'm fine with the Kin being Clones and being sent into the core, it's just that the AI doesn't seem to fit in the timeline.
Now, if they had found the AI in the core-that would be an interesting twist that I would feel works better.
It's the DAOT, the technological peak of humanity when they used AI extensively, to explore and colonize the stars and other uses, with the Men of Iron (Which again, the Leagues of Votann reference).
If anything, Mars being against them is the problem here, but I don't know where that is from as I haven't heard of that before.
The Martian Priesthood that went with the Long March ships was anti-AI (Codex Imperial Knights... 8th/9th).
The part that I'm running into is there seems to be 2 major colonizations.
There is the Men of Gold. Then bad stuff happens. Then you have the human disporia where humankind leaves Old Earth aka The Long March, taking with them Omnissiah Tech Priests. Which will set up Knight Worlds and Forge Worlds.
Then really bad stuff happens and the Emperor comes along and the Great Crusade occurs and the Forgeworlds and Knights are introduced to the Imperium and forgeworlds have to swear fealty to Mars. (Adeptus Titanicus).
So there could have been the Votann AI and the Kin before the Long March.
And that would sync with the Men of Gold that traveled between the stars... before bad thing #1 happened.
But it's hard to sync them with the Long March ships.
Lathe Biosas wrote: The Martian Priesthood that went with the Long March ships was anti-AI (Codex Imperial Knights... 8th/9th).
Something really doesn't sound right there. Can you give a quote for it?
That doesn't make sense if ships of the time period had AI, AI was just in extensive use in general because it's the DAOT, long march ships were sent out with an STC device which is AI, the whole Men of Iron thing, and it's just well before the Cybernetic Revolt that caused the dislike of it.
In the Adeptus Titanicus Rulebook page 9, it says:
The Custodians of knowledge preached the sanctity of the machine even as they remained vigilant for the return of true self-awareness, ever fearful that thinking machines might turn upon what remained of humanity as they had at the dawn of the Age of Strife.
This is before they talk about the Long March ships on Page 10.
I was under the impression that the Imperium, Mars included, were overusing AI to the point of when it revolted, they had serious issues.
*Golden Age Humanity, not the Imperium.
The Cybernetic Revolt occurred in M23, long after Humanity had started to colonise the galaxy.
Not all of the Men of Iron rebelled, but any that remained were destroyed or disappeared.
Incidentally, in the original background of the Squats, they entered their isolationist period just prior to the Cybernetic Revolt.
That would fit pretty well with the Leagues keeping their AI in service if neither the Kin nor Machines even knew about the Revolt.
The Age of Strife doesn't begin until M25, after the Cybernetic Revolt in M23 and long after the first human colony ships leave Terra in M16.
The Machine Cult doesn't form until the Age of Strife when the Golden Age of Humanity comes to an end. Various exploration fleets were sent out by the Mechanicum, which in turn founded Forge Worlds.
I was under the impression that the Imperium, Mars included, were overusing AI to the point of when it revolted, they had serious issues.
*Golden Age Humanity, not the Imperium.
The Cybernetic Revolt occurred in M23, long after Humanity had started to colonise the galaxy.
Not all of the Men of Iron rebelled, but any that remained were destroyed or disappeared.
Incidentally, in the original background of the Squats, they entered their isolationist period just prior to the Cybernetic Revolt.
That would fit pretty well with the Leagues keeping their AI in service if neither the Kin nor Machines even knew about the Revolt.
The Age of Strife doesn't begin until M25, after the Cybernetic Revolt in M23 and long after the first human colony ships leave Terra in M16.
The Machine Cult doesn't form until the Age of Strife when the Golden Age of Humanity comes to an end. Various exploration fleets were sent out by the Mechanicum, which in turn founded Forge Worlds.
The Adeptus Titanicus Rulebook has the Age of Strife before the Long March.
The Custodians of knowledge preached the sanctity of the machine even as they remained vigilant for the return of true self-awareness, ever fearful that thinking machines might turn upon what remained of humanity as they had at the dawn of the Age of Strife.
This is before they talk about the Long March ships on Page 10.
The Kin have to be from before the Age of Strife.
But what you're quoting there appears to be from after the age of strife.
They can't be fearful they might return and do what they did "at the dawn of the Age of Strife." if it's before then.
The Adeptus Titanicus Rulebook has the Age of Strife before the Long March.
Then the Long March you're talking about isn't the initial colonisation of the Galaxy by Golden Age Humanity then is it?
It's likely that this is in reference to the various exploration fleets sent out by Mars that then founded the Forge Worlds that were then encountered by the Great Crusade.
Hellebore wrote: The amount of armies that are just different colour schemes of power armour should suggest there's no issue with having recurring themes.
IMO they should go down the votann aesthetic of ornate ancestor heads and carvings on more things for the higher spec stuff rather than just hitech.
They should look like reverred walking monuments to the votann and their culture rather than just relatively generic space amour with some runes.
IMO the iron kin would have looked so much more interesting if they were built with sculpted visages and bodies, like walking dwarf golems with stylised faces etc.
The viking-baroque style would help make them look more interesting.
I a m really glad they did not do that. I am also glad they're not old school squats. I think the aesthetics they chose are excellent. Granted, I have some small gripes, but those are more about the execution.
I have never liked any dwarf archetype before, but I do like the Leagues. I think their practical DAOT stuff is a breath of fresh air to overly stuffy and stagnant 40K. That being said, this probably means a lot of people who like classic dwarf stuff might not find them that appealing.
I think game-wise they have not really found their groove though, and I am not quite sure what they should do about it. 40K has so many factions that is hard to introduce new unique playstyles. But they need more units though, that is obvious. And like some have already said, they should do more with the ironkin. They're a cool concept, but game wise they might as well not exist. They're just couple of hanger on assistants or models that mechanically do not differ from living squats in any way. So I think expanding ironkin would be an obvious way to emphasise the lore and fill the unit roster at the same time.
there are two aspects at play, the dwarfen archetype and the DAOT survivors. They could be completely separate concepts, but GW smushed them together. But they've not really done justice to the dwarfen aspect in doing so, which kind of makes them being the space dwarf faction a bit superfluous. The dwarf aspect needs to be relevant to retain it at all, and they've not really managed that yet. They're just doing the DAOT thing.
40k has plenty/too many human factions, 2/3rds+ are humans, whether zealous, engineered or spikey (or alien mutant). DAOT is just another human faction. Making them more dwarfen and less human provides more variety than just another human army. Having them develop their own completely divergent and unrelated aesthetic from other humans is IMO far more interesting than just another slice of the already thinly sliced human pie.
Hellebore wrote: The amount of armies that are just different colour schemes of power armour should suggest there's no issue with having recurring themes.
IMO they should go down the votann aesthetic of ornate ancestor heads and carvings on more things for the higher spec stuff rather than just hitech.
They should look like reverred walking monuments to the votann and their culture rather than just relatively generic space amour with some runes.
IMO the iron kin would have looked so much more interesting if they were built with sculpted visages and bodies, like walking dwarf golems with stylised faces etc.
The viking-baroque style would help make them look more interesting.
I a m really glad they did not do that. I am also glad they're not old school squats. I think the aesthetics they chose are excellent. Granted, I have some small gripes, but those are more about the execution.
I have never liked any dwarf archetype before, but I do like the Leagues. I think their practical DAOT stuff is a breath of fresh air to overly stuffy and stagnant 40K. That being said, this probably means a lot of people who like classic dwarf stuff might not find them that appealing.
I think game-wise they have not really found their groove though, and I am not quite sure what they should do about it. 40K has so many factions that is hard to introduce new unique playstyles. But they need more units though, that is obvious. And like some have already said, they should do more with the ironkin. They're a cool concept, but game wise they might as well not exist. They're just couple of hanger on assistants or models that mechanically do not differ from living squats in any way. So I think expanding ironkin would be an obvious way to emphasise the lore and fill the unit roster at the same time.
there are two aspects at play, the dwarfen archetype and the DAOT survivors. They could be completely separate concepts, but GW smushed them together. But they've not really done justice to the dwarfen aspect in doing so, which kind of makes them being the space dwarf faction a bit superfluous. The dwarf aspect needs to be relevant to retain it at all, and they've not really managed that yet. They're just doing the DAOT thing.
40k has plenty/too many human factions, 2/3rds+ are humans, whether zealous, engineered or spikey (or alien mutant). DAOT is just another human faction. Making them more dwarfen and less human provides more variety than just another human army. Having them develop their own completely divergent and unrelated aesthetic from other humans is IMO far more interesting than just another slice of the already thinly sliced human pie.
If i've understood what you mean there then this is my issue with the Votann designs too.
Lore wise they absolutely do have the Dwarf elements, but the models not so much. They said they didn't want them to be "dwarfs in space" but saying that to me sounds like a misunderstanding of what that even means as an idea. It didn't mean literal WHF Dwarfs in Space with gromril mail and horned helmets and all that, doing "___ in space" means to take the archetype and it's expected elements, and put them in as a sci-fi suitable version. Instead it's like they, for some reason, thought things like the Beards were "fantastic specific" elements rather than just "dwarf archetype" features that were expected and didn't include them, resulting in a design that moves away from what the whole point of it was meant to be being Space Dwarfs.
Yeah. Eldar are still space elves, but they're a unique expression of space elves.
They maintain all the motifs of elegance, grace, curves, colours and themes that you'd expect in elves, without literally just being high elves in space. For some reason they've failed to do the same thing with the space dwarfs.
I find eldar so much more interesting as an elf archetype than the WFB elves, and yet I love the WFB dwarfs more than the squats/votann.
Yeah I'd have been equally interested in the Votann background if they were just normal humans with the same DAOT theming. It's really cool stuff, and something missing from the setting. Them being short abhumans doesn't do much for me, especially because in so doing they lose that incorrigible nature of Dwarves that made the Squats appealing to me.
But you know I can see why they decided to put their two ideas together - if you really wanted to do DAOT survivors and then you get told they're doing Squats, I can see thinking "Oh cool I can make this work!"
Not really what they need but I'd like to see the Leagues of Votann lean into their Ironkin buddies and do something a little differently than other armies.
I'm not sure the idea can be balanced in a way that makes it both useful and fun to use, but ... I envision a sort of transformer combo unit like Devastator - made up of the Constructicons when they combined. Or like Voltron. Did the power rangers do the same thing and combine mechazoids or whatever? Anyway...
A unit of six small infantry that can move really fast but have weaker weapons, that can combine to form a larger walker unit with (much?) slower movement, higher toughness, better saves and weapons, but less OC.
I dunno. Just seems like something none of the other factions do and Leagues of Votann having Ironkin buddies seems like it could work if the points and abilities are balanced properly.
dadx6 wrote: Not really what they need but I'd like to see the Leagues of Votann lean into their Ironkin buddies and do something a little differently than other armies.
I'm not sure the idea can be balanced in a way that makes it both useful and fun to use, but ... I envision a sort of transformer combo unit like Devastator - made up of the Constructicons when they combined. Or like Voltron. Did the power rangers do the same thing and combine mechazoids or whatever? Anyway...
A unit of six small infantry that can move really fast but have weaker weapons, that can combine to form a larger walker unit with (much?) slower movement, higher toughness, better saves and weapons, but less OC.
I dunno. Just seems like something none of the other factions do and Leagues of Votann having Ironkin buddies seems like it could work if the points and abilities are balanced properly.
Would be cool, but you'd also presumably be looking at a $100+ kit give that you'd need a model for the mech version and separate models for the squad version. Also raises questions when the squad is half dead but still turns into a similarly big guy.
Here's a cool way they could've done the Votann. They were the Squats/Demiurg/whatever from the lore we love, and they've been corrupted by the Votann, which they discovered in the Galactic Core.
Personally I think time is a big factor, the armies we buy now as adults are the ones we've been reading about and pouring over pictures of in White Dwarf and codices for decades.
There's a little snotling somewhere sitting in his tree house and whistfully dreaming over his first box of Votaan Troopers I'm sure!
Kroem wrote: There's a little snotling somewhere sitting in his tree house and whistfully dreaming over his first box of Votaan Troopers I'm sure!
Citizens of the Imperium, I have read with great dismay the reports of young recruits expressing a desire to align themselves with the vile xenos scum that infest the galaxy. Let it be known that such sentiments are an affront to the Emperor's divine will and a betrayal of the sacred duty we all share to purge the galaxy of these abominations.
The Emperor's light shines brightly upon the Imperial forces, and it is through our unwavering loyalty and unyielding resolve that we stand as the last bastion of humanity against the encroaching darkness. To choose the path of the alien is to embrace heresy and to turn your back on the one true way.
I command all who read this to rally behind the banner of the Imperium. Join the ranks of the Space Marines, the Astra Militarum, or any of the other noble forces that serve the Emperor. Stand tall and proud, knowing that you are fighting for the survival of humanity and the glory of the Imperium.
Remember, children, the Emperor's gaze is upon you. He sees your every action and knows your every thought. Choose wisely, for the fate of the galaxy rests in your hands. May the Emperor's light guide you and may His will be done.
M15: Huge sublight ships start to leave Terra to colonize individual star-systems, called the "Long March" because the ships must travel so far so slowly
M18: The warp-drive is invented allowing for interstellar networks to form: this begins the "Dark Age of Technology"
M20: Widely considered the "Golden Age" of humanity, the height of Dark Age civilization
M23: The cybernetic revolt begins, plunging the entire galaxy into a war in which humans are largely victorious but suffer catastrophically
M25: Human civilization is unable to recover from the damage caused by the rebellion and devolves into violent barbarism, starting the "Age of Strife"
M30: The Emperor unifies Terra and begins the Great Crusade, starting "The Imperium of Man"
It wouldn't make sense for sublight ships to try and colonize the galactic core because the planets are uninhabitable, so the core must have been colonized in the M18-M20 period. AI was certainly widely in use by M20 so presumably that's where the Votann supercomputers come from. I don't think it's a stretch to assume that Men of Gold = "Golden Age" humans, Men of Stone = clones created for labor (especially mining), and Men of Iron = fully autonomous AIs and robots.
Presumably the cybernetic revolt was actually successful in the galactic core, where the ratio of robots and clones to true humans was the highest, but was lost everywhere else. Therefore the Votann computers decided to consolidate their power over the clones and hide in the core rather than go out and fight the otherwise victorious humans, and have been using the millennia to fortify their position and accumulate as much power as they can waiting for the humans to counter-attack.
I actually quite like this fluff, it's ambiguously sinister without the over-the-top "I have dead babies on my tank" stuff that a lot of people seem to demand as "grimdark" but which has only ever represented a minority of armies in the game.
I do okay with my Leagues of Votann right now, I don't know that they NEED anything. However, here are some more things that would be cool to have.
A battlesuit like the NDK or Invictor. Probably with a shoulder mounted gun so it's at a level where it can actually SEE things (because Votann are short, get it?!?) and some close combat axe or hammer nonsense. Kind of like the Einhyr Champion but a vehicle, or a Space Marine Chonkanaught. M8" Ld7 Sv3+/6++ T8 W8 or something like that, with I dunno, L7 missile launcher and Ion Beamer or something and a dedicated close combat weapon with AP-2 and at least D2. I guess it's practically a Sentinel at those stats, but it would kind of be like that I guess.
I'd also like to see a jump-pack melee unit that ISN'T the shirtless 70's prison movie rejects. Hearthkyn warriors with jump packs getting M12 Ld7 Sv4+ T5 W1 with a 6+FNP and just all armed with Kin melee weapons and the option to take either plasma knives or plasma pistols in their off hands. Knives to get +1 attack at S4 AP-2 D1 and plasma pistols for the 6" ranged attack.
The swarm/robot transformer unit would be expensive in terms of cost, and would have to have 8th edition style damage levels to represent losing some of the swarm. So I get that it would add complexity to a game and cost to the army, two things that everybody hates. But in my head it sounds and looks cool - a swarm of IronMaster helper bots passing through a ruins then combining to form a bigger, stompier (or shootier) robot. No real reason for it in gameplay terms, though, I guess.
