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I've never met a Leagues of Votann player, or really seen much of a presence online of Votann gamers.

What do the LoV need to succeed?

Maybe a flyer. Then they can be sad like all the other factions that have one.

Necromunda Squats to takeover the faction aesthetic, probably.

LoV seem like they're off to a good start. The impression I get playing against them is that everything they currently have is fine, but that they're kind of locked into just stat-checking opponents to death with heavy infantry and land fortresses.

So something to help expand their playstyle options, maybe? Units that deploy shields to keep squishier infantry alive? More stuff along the lines of bikes/sagitar to let them be mobile? Idk.

I think I said this a few months back.

For me.

1. LoV lore is weak. I know this is a highly debatable point online. "Is LoV Grimdark enough" will perhaps run and run on Reddit etc - but I think there are sort of echos of Tau here. The answer depends very much on "do you just read what's in the Codex and take it straight" or do you read behind it? The argument turns into "look at this deep and dark lore" and "that's just your head canon, the text is fairly thin."

I think there's good ideas here - but they've not been developed and aren't the focus of the faction. Which leads us to...

2. Even if you accept the lore - its not represented very well "on the table". LoV "in game" are explicitly Dwarfs in Spaaace. Clones? Doesn't matter. Ironkin? Doesn't matter. Collapse of the Votann in general? Doesn't matter. What matters is that stuff gets grudged.

This isn't unique to LoV. I'd argue Dark Eldar are increasingly badly served in terms of "lore to actual in game feel". Its perhaps subjective - but it undermines my interest in the faction.

3. Perhaps another issue (although this one may vary) is that the army roster is thin.

Do you like Hernkyn? Well there's 2 units. If you max it out that's 810 points. Maybe that would be enough for a "theme" 20-30 years ago, but not really feeling it today.
Cthonians? There's one unit. Brokhyr? One unit and a character.

Okay you can just collect a 1000 points list and play at that level - but that's quite small.

I feel some armies have managed to get away with having a tiny roster - but feeling like there's quite a bit of potential build choice. I don't get that for LoV. Sure an army where you spent 600 points maxing out Beserks or Thunderkyn, or Hearthguard, or 3 Hekatons etc is going to be different to one where you take 1 or none. But its not overly exciting.

Imagine if Eldar had the choice of Guardian Defenders, Rangers, Jet Bikes, Dark Reapers, Howling Banshees and idk, Wraith Blades. The illusion of the different Craftworlds would still be here - but not really with enough to do very much to a list.

4. I think the models are also... variable. Some are very Dwarf - but others are kind of confused abhuman. I know some people like the style of the Necromunda ones more - and I probably agree but not that much.

Basically I think they need a second wave that expands out the various lines.

Tyel wrote:
I think I said this a few months back.

For me.

1. LoV lore is weak. I know this is a highly debatable point online. "Is LoV Grimdark enough" will perhaps run and run on Reddit etc - but I think there are sort of echos of Tau here.

Something that every time is mentioned, comes across as being from someone who hasn't bothered to read their lore. A faction who's whole theming is to be the last true remnants of humanities golden age as a species of manufactured clone mining drones led by malfunctioning, senile super AI both of whom have been operating for 20,000 years longer than intended but who just carry on their tasks as if it makes no difference, who have a constant, unending desire to gather resources and knowledge to their own detriment not because they need it, but because they're paranoid survivalist preppers who just can't stop going "Well, what if we need it for something eventually?" where they're hoarding for some vague nebulous thing just for the sake of it, who view absolutely everything in terms of cost/benefit including their lives to the extent that their biggest punishment is to be exiled and not uploaded to the Votann core upon death basically making that particular kin effectively never having existed and everything they did meaningless (because the Kin themselves are basically a data/resource collection tool), who entirely believe that strength is all that really matters and will eagerly destroy entire ecosystems and planets inhabited or not just because they want more resources and beyond a sense of apathy won't give it a second thought, I don't know how you can see that sort of thing and go "Where's the Grimdark???".

The lore is weak in part because its only what a couple of years old now - Lets not forget Necron lore when they were new was mostly "They awaken from hidden tombs under worlds and just kill everything" and it was that way for quite a while.

Lore takes time to evolve and longer still for people to connect with it when you note that most people just about get through a website summary page or maybe the codex for a faction. Many people don't dip into novels and such so it takes time for the lore to flesh out casually to most people.


LoV could do with more models yes - that's the same issue almost all smaller GW armies have - AoS has multiple factions in that same boat.

 Overread wrote:
The lore is weak in part because its only what a couple of years old now - Lets not forget Necron lore when they were new was mostly "They awaken from hidden tombs under worlds and just kill everything" and it was that way for quite a while.

Lore takes time to evolve and longer still for people to connect with it when you note that most people just about get through a website summary page or maybe the codex for a faction. Many people don't dip into novels and such so it takes time for the lore to flesh out casually to most people.


LoV could do with more models yes - that's the same issue almost all smaller GW armies have - AoS has multiple factions in that same boat.

At the very least they should have had a novel at or near their launch. It's just baffling that it took 2 years for it to happen, and even then only because apparantly Gav Thorpe - an author who really likes Dwarfs - found out about them at exactly the same time we did, and eagerly asked to write a novel for them. A whole new faction should have been treated as a big deal and had a novel within their launch period, especially as that would obviously both help with sales of both the book and models, and give them more of an introduction to the setting.

 Overread wrote:
The lore is weak in part because its only what a couple of years old now - Lets not forget Necron lore when they were new was mostly "They awaken from hidden tombs under worlds and just kill everything" and it was that way for quite a while.

Lore takes time to evolve and longer still for people to connect with it when you note that most people just about get through a website summary page or maybe the codex for a faction. Many people don't dip into novels and such so it takes time for the lore to flesh out casually to most people.

Necrons were helped by the fact that they were supposed to be a mysterious new threat which nobody knew much about - so it didn't really matter too much if their Raiders background was thin on the ground (and it's not like adding loads more actually helped them much ultimately...)

Space Dwarves aren't supposed to be that - and unlike Necrons aren't just a White Dwarf mini-faction with nine (later a whole eleven!) models.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Spoiler:

Tyel wrote:
I think I said this a few months back.

For me.

1. LoV lore is weak. I know this is a highly debatable point online. "Is LoV Grimdark enough" will perhaps run and run on Reddit etc - but I think there are sort of echos of Tau here.

Something that every time is mentioned, comes across as being from someone who hasn't bothered to read their lore. A faction who's whole theming is to be the last true remnants of humanities golden age as a species of manufactured clone mining drones led by malfunctioning, senile super AI both of whom have been operating for 20,000 years longer than intended but who just carry on their tasks as if it makes no difference, who have a constant, unending desire to gather resources and knowledge to their own detriment not because they need it, but because they're paranoid survivalist preppers who just can't stop going "Well, what if we need it for something eventually?" where they're hoarding for some vague nebulous thing just for the sake of it, who view absolutely everything in terms of cost/benefit including their lives to the extent that their biggest punishment is to be exiled and not uploaded to the Votann core upon death basically making that particular kin effectively never having existed and everything they did meaningless (because the Kin themselves are basically a data/resource collection tool), who entirely believe that strength is all that really matters and will eagerly destroy entire ecosystems and planets inhabited or not just because they want more resources and beyond a sense of apathy won't give it a second thought, I don't know how you can see that sort of thing and go "Where's the Grimdark???".

Yeah, you know what?
NONE of that has ever come across to me during any game I've ever played involving them.

1st? None of the models present any real sort of GrimDark imagery.

2nd
Kill Team - to date the only type of game where I've ever used Votann. There's none of that background presented in that game. You can play KT & never learn anything about any of the factions, let alone Votann.

3rd
40k - I've not built & fielded a Votann force of my own (yet - I do have kits on my "to do" shelf though).
So my 40k experience with them is limited to about 6 or 7 games against them to date.
In none of those games did an opponent ever reference any rule or abilities that related to that lore.
It was just variations on to hit/wound/save effects (grudge tokens included).....
Maybe once I finally make my own force I'll be able to see a way to express thier lore? Or maybe more lore obvious rules will have arrived. A more Grimdark look I wouldn't bet on though.

So in the lore department I'd say they need it better represented in a playable way.

ccs wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Spoiler:

Tyel wrote:
I think I said this a few months back.

For me.

1. LoV lore is weak. I know this is a highly debatable point online. "Is LoV Grimdark enough" will perhaps run and run on Reddit etc - but I think there are sort of echos of Tau here.

Something that every time is mentioned, comes across as being from someone who hasn't bothered to read their lore. A faction who's whole theming is to be the last true remnants of humanities golden age as a species of manufactured clone mining drones led by malfunctioning, senile super AI both of whom have been operating for 20,000 years longer than intended but who just carry on their tasks as if it makes no difference, who have a constant, unending desire to gather resources and knowledge to their own detriment not because they need it, but because they're paranoid survivalist preppers who just can't stop going "Well, what if we need it for something eventually?" where they're hoarding for some vague nebulous thing just for the sake of it, who view absolutely everything in terms of cost/benefit including their lives to the extent that their biggest punishment is to be exiled and not uploaded to the Votann core upon death basically making that particular kin effectively never having existed and everything they did meaningless (because the Kin themselves are basically a data/resource collection tool), who entirely believe that strength is all that really matters and will eagerly destroy entire ecosystems and planets inhabited or not just because they want more resources and beyond a sense of apathy won't give it a second thought, I don't know how you can see that sort of thing and go "Where's the Grimdark???".

Yeah, you know what?
NONE of that has ever come across to me during any game I've ever played involving them.

1st? None of the models present any real sort of GrimDark imagery.

2nd
Kill Team - to date the only type of game where I've ever used Votann. There's none of that background presented in that game. You can play KT & never learn anything about any of the factions, let alone Votann.

3rd
40k - I've not built & fielded a Votann force of my own (yet - I do have kits on my "to do" shelf though).
So my 40k experience with them is limited to about 6 or 7 games against them to date.
In none of those games did an opponent ever reference any rule or abilities that related to that lore.
It was just variations on to hit/wound/save effects (grudge tokens included).....
Maybe once I finally make my own force I'll be able to see a way to express thier lore? Or maybe more lore obvious rules will have arrived. A more Grimdark look I wouldn't bet on though.

So in the lore department I'd say they need it better represented in a playable way.

1st: Different factions have different aesthetics."Looking Grimdark" isn't some singular thing that applies to every faction and every miniature, it varies depending on what they're meant to be. It's readily apparent with the models of something like the Imperium because that is their theming, but even then you've got a variety of style and designs that are not that. That the Votann miniatures aren't some outright obvious grimdark design is because their theming is meant to be they represent the DAOT and what the Imperium could have been.

2nd: Try reading something like the lore of the Hernkyn Yaegir presented Killteam: Termination rulebook and then saying "there's no grimdark" to the Votann. It's unfortunate the books as part of sets aren't easily available, but there absolutely is lore for them there.

3rd: Rules aren't there to showcase that side of a faction / their lore, so it seems a bit strange to use that as an indication.

It sounds like you're basically going "I've not read their lore, but they aren't grimdark!". It's the lore that defines the grimdark of a faction for the most part, so of course if you completely ignore their lore you won't see much of it. That's not something that only applies to the Votann, If you hadn't read Eldar or Imperial Guard or even Space Marine lore you aren't going to get much of that side of them just their miniatures.

Having listened to the High Karl audiobook but not read much other Votann lore, I think it's fair to say that they're just one of the less grimdark factions in the setting. Which personally I think is fine. The setting has enough grim and dark to go around. You don't need to slap skulls and daemons on every available surface.

They're an extremely resource-conscious faction that has to continue extracting raw materials from a hostile galaxy to survive, all while fending off spooky aliens and dealing with the slow failure of the computers that are holding their society together.

They're like... Star Trek Voyager if it was set in the grimdarkness of the 41st millenium. That's a fun enough concept. They definitely don't detract from the rest of the setting just because they aren't lobotomizing eachother or getting possessed every five minutes. And if that's not edgy enough for you, that's fine; they might simply not be a good fit for you.

Like most of the new factions I'd say variety. Most of the new/split off factions have just enough datasheets to meet bare minimum. Just about every one of these new ones from Custodes to now probably need a second release of new sheets and kits.

Breton wrote:
Like most of the new factions I'd say variety. Most of the new/split off factions have just enough datasheets to meet bare minimum. Just about every one of these new ones from Custodes to now probably need a second release of new sheets and kits.

That or a constant trickle of new models for a few campaign books in a row. The downside is that GW seems to really like doing hero/leader models for that. It's quick and small on mould costs, but at the same time for small armies it can quickly end up with them having way more options as leaders than they do as troops/monsters/machines and so forth. AoS shows this a lot - Fyreslayers for example have 2 troop model kits but a whole host of leaders that have been trickled-fed in.

For some reason GW doesn't like to trickle feed troops/monsters in as much

Breton wrote:
Like most of the new factions I'd say variety. Most of the new/split off factions have just enough datasheets to meet bare minimum. Just about every one of these new ones from Custodes to now probably need a second release of new sheets and kits.

I regret getting my roommate to start Custodes. I didn't realize how much of the Adeptus Custodes was not in the regular Codex, but FW datasheets that are allowed for tournaments (and contain ridiculously expensive models - that are never in stock).

I feel like some of the codicies were released only because they felt like they were supposed to release a new book for the edition.

Votann, on the table, really start to lack variety when you get to larger games. Almost every game I've ever played of 40k is 2000 points, and at that level you start to run out of ways to play them in an effective manner, and you start to become REALLY predicable.

Game wise, I think they need at least one more battleline unit, one more elite infantry unit (differently themed), and a walker. I wouldn't mind some kind of hover vehicle either.

A jump pack unit is almost a given for their codex release. We'll see what else they get.

It's a really challenge for them introducing factions to the game now. Time was a faction release could be 4 kits and it'd be alright because most factions didn't have so many, but now many factions have a huge roster so any new faction, even if released with quite a few kits, will seem to be under developed.

That's a separate issue from what I think of as "Squad as Army Syndrome" that I think Grey Knights, Custodes, Tempestus Scions and Harlequins suffer from.

I'm not sure about anyone else, but I'd love to see a modern interpretation of the Iron Eagle Gyrocopter as either a flyer or a skimmer.

Probably not the only thing they need, for sure, but it's one I'm hoping for at some stage.

All they need is something interesting that you can build around - at the moment there are so few units you have to take a bit of everything just to get to a 2k list, this is a bit of a turn off for me as you kind of feel forced to get the models you like the least just to flesh out the army.

If I had my way though, there would be any of these 3 elements in the second wave:
1. Expand on the clones and drones lore. Star Wars has shown a decent story line around disposable armies of clones and mass produced machines, I think it would be cool to see some lesser clones used as fodder - it would be a nice excuse to get some more classically styled squat warrior models (flak armour and bolter infantry, wheeled trikes etc).
2. Modernised nods to old epic stuff. Land train with customisable number of carriages, or anything resembling a gyrocopter.
3. Necromunda squats get the imperial agents treatment.

The current Votann range is a good start. Certainly for a whole new army, they feel more rounded than others (WE, EC).

But the feel of the current range is “these are our militia equivalent, present in all far ranging elements”. And I do like that feel.

That leaves “and this is what happens when you really piss is off, and we go to war”. And that’s what I really want to see.

 Da Boss wrote:
It's a really challenge for them introducing factions to the game now. Time was a faction release could be 4 kits and it'd be alright because most factions didn't have so many, but now many factions have a huge roster so any new faction, even if released with quite a few kits, will seem to be under developed.

That's a separate issue from what I think of as "Squad as Army Syndrome" that I think Grey Knights, Custodes, Tempestus Scions and Harlequins suffer from.

That was also probably before the Rule of Three. And that's about half of why they seem under developed. In theory I'd expect every faction two have at least two separate but roughly equally viable builds. That means more kits. Then to have either or both builds viable at 2K you're also looking at more kits (or at least datasheets on the same kit like Centurions/Guardians/Incursor-Infiltrators and so on) The final "driver" for feeling "under developed" is the variety and the holes in the army as a whole. Every faction is pretty much built around having strengths, weaknesses and things they completely miss. Space Marines miss "hordes" entirely. Necrons miss Psychics. yadda yadda. When you're missing half the (iconic battlefield units like light infantry, heavy infantry, light cav, heavy cav etc) you're not developed.

I tend to agree variety is the issue.

The question really is why LoV don't feel like they have variety. I mean they've got 5 infantry units, 1 unit of bikes and 2 vehicles. That's not Harlequins or Scions.
These can in turn usually be equipped with a range of different weapons that should provide additional optionality. (And might do with a decent Codex-update.)

Cynically though this is potentially the issue - because those weapons don't really change the unit. I mean take Hearthkyn. 2 S4 AP- 1 damage shots. Or 1 slightly shorter range S5 AP-2 1 damage shot. You can agonize over the specific maths - but from a casual consideration these are both relatively low damage options on slow infantry with minimal assault capability.

Its unclear say Hearthguard with plasma guns and concussion gauntlets represent a materially different unit to one with volkite and plasma gauntlets. The damage profile is different - but I'm not sure you'd "use" the unit in a completely different way.

It doesn't help that even if weapon options are actually significantly different, because you pay the same points regardless, there's no incentive to actually take one which might be mechanically somewhat weaker.

The kits are okey, and there is more of them then some other new factions. And if the theme is good enough a small number of units faction can do fine. DG are a good example of that. And GW, if they were not GW, could fix it by being less donkey-cave about what is in the kit=the rules.

Votan could be made different on the "clans" level. One clan suffers from genetic instability and their members are half or 2/3 robots instead of one here and there in other clans. Another clan could be the "new upstarts" all brawn and muscles doing science and "experiments". They could get more berzerks and/or berzerkers specific just to that one clan. All from the the same berzerker kit.
Then some sort of "From the Halls of Ancients" clan, the traditionalists, rich from tens of thousands of years spend minig the core.
But of course GW is not going to do that, because the very idea that someone could use the same kit for two units(or two games :shock: ) gives them a mind melt. And as Votan don't seem to have a strong faction within the studio they are going to get the same treatment other factions in the same position get. Kill team unit, a new hero when new codex comes and a 2ed wave every 10 years or so.

Lore wise they are as grim and dark as it gets. Miners, controled by an AI, designed on a gentic level to be more or less flesh robots. It is hard to imagine being more grim then that.

Tyel wrote:
I tend to agree variety is the issue.

The question really is why LoV don't feel like they have variety. I mean they've got 5 infantry units, 1 unit of bikes and 2 vehicles. That's not Harlequins or Scions.
These can in turn usually be equipped with a range of different weapons that should provide additional optionality. (And might do with a decent Codex-update.)

Cynically though this is potentially the issue - because those weapons don't really change the unit. I mean take Hearthkyn. 2 S4 AP- 1 damage shots. Or 1 slightly shorter range S5 AP-2 1 damage shot. You can agonize over the specific maths - but from a casual consideration these are both relatively low damage options on slow infantry with minimal assault capability.

Its unclear say Hearthguard with plasma guns and concussion gauntlets represent a materially different unit to one with volkite and plasma gauntlets. The damage profile is different - but I'm not sure you'd "use" the unit in a completely different way.

Because wepons aren't really variety. 1 Bike fast mover, and 2 vehicle tanks and some foot sloggers aren't "variety". There's no Fight BATTLELINE - only one real FIGHT unit at all. You don't have the fast infantry, or the scouting light armored skirmishers, etc

LoV needs better community visibility and strong competitive strategies to succeed!

I don't think the Votann being "insufficiently grimdark" is part of the issue at all. Plenty of other factions can fill the grimdark niche well enough for the needs of players who love skulls mounted on spikes. There are many players, myself included, who got into 40k primarily because it's the biggest game in town and are quite happy to be able to choose between different factions exhibiting a range of tones and moods, including some that are more idealistic.

Fluff-wise, my issue with Votann is that they seem to have been clumsily retconned into a game that had moved past them a long time ago, for the sole purpose of pandering to nostalgic 45-year-old players. Warhammer 40k may have started out as Tolkienesque fantasy in space, but it has since become its own thing. It doesn't need space dwarfs to balance out the space elves.

 Da Boss wrote:
That's a separate issue from what I think of as "Squad as Army Syndrome" that I think Grey Knights, Custodes, Tempestus Scions and Harlequins suffer from.

Can you explain this syndrome?

Are you talking about how their battleline squad acts as a template from which other units deviate too little, resulting in an army that's somewhat too uniform and not characterful enough?

.

I just think they aren't different enough to stand on their own. They look like short space marines.

If they brought something radically different to the game, I think people would be more interested in them.

-Guardsman- wrote:
I don't think the Votann being "insufficiently grimdark" is part of the issue at all. Plenty of other factions can fill the grimdark niche well enough for the needs of players who love skulls mounted on spikes. There are many players, myself included, who got into 40k primarily because it's the biggest game in town and are quite happy to be able to choose between different factions exhibiting a range of tones and moods, including some that are more idealistic.

Fluff-wise, my issue with Votann is that they seem to have been clumsily retconned into a game that had moved past them a long time ago, for the sole purpose of pandering to nostalgic 45-year-old players. Warhammer 40k may have started out as Tolkienesque fantasy in space, but it has since become its own thing. It doesn't need space dwarfs to balance out the space elves.

They aren't there to balance out the space elves. They're there to try & draw $ out of peoples bank accounts.

 Quixote wrote:
I just think they aren't different enough to stand on their own. They look like short space marines.

If they brought something radically different to the game, I think people would be more interested in them.

I think that's why the Necromunda ones get a bit more attention - the 40K ones do have a good few basic infantry that look just a bit too much like mini-marines. Even though their vehicles and scout model really do look very different.

I think GW went with the rough-and-ready frontier style that's a bit like what Starcraft uses for their Marines.

Again I think we keep swinging back to the simple fact that the army just needs another chunky release to give more visual, design and tactical variety for them