Space Marines are expected to be one-man armies, and each of them is to hold back against thousands of foes. This, obviously, begs the question of how they have the munitions to sustain killing thousands of enemies in a single engagement. In the game, there are weapon crates and supply stations that will keep Titus well-supplied. But that can't always be the case.
Would Space Marines start using lasguns, autoguns, and even weapons looted from the enemy when they run out of ammo and cannot get to the next supply point? Is there any lore about Space Marines using primitive firearms after their bolters malfunction or run out of ammo?
Going all the way back to Rogue Trader, we saw Marines armed with all sorts, including Shuriken Catapults. And at least during the Heresy, Blackshields would use pretty much whatever they could get their hands on.
Into the modern day? Less so. Even the Blood Angel that’s gone native on Necromunda still has his Bolter.
But, I wouldn’t rule it out entirely.
My guess is there are so few Astartes, and their ships so vast (even a Hunter Class Destroyer is huge), arming and resupplying is an issue well in hand.
I’ve absolutely no concern that, if needs must, a Marine will fight with whatever comes to hand. But from the above observations, I think it must be pretty rare.
Excellent points, Mad Doc. Conversely, this means that a ramped-up mass production of Space Marines would see more of them more often resorting to simpler firearms at hand as resupply and possibly even stockpiles and production grows strained to keep up with increased demand during some of their more strenuous campaigns. Come the crisis, come the improvization.
I'd argue that isn't the case given that guns and bullets are far easier to make than a Space Marine and the Imperium seems entirely capable of producing enough Bolters and ammo that the Sororitas and Custodes have it as their primary weapon with the wider Imperium having easy access to Bolt Pistols at the very least.
Not all the same calibre though, with Astartes weapons being notably huge, to the point a mere smelly hooman couldn’t easily use it.
However, that may be a matter of just retooling. If you’ve the base technology and whatever passes for understanding of how to assemble a Bolt round, I see no reason why that couldn’t be turned to Astartes calibres. After all, you don’t need to turn out tens of thousands to resupply hundreds of soldiers.
Early on in the Great Crusade the Legions swapped from using Volkite as their main weapon to Bolt, as the supply lines were easier to manage (but you can't beat sticking a las pack in a fire to recharge it!).
To quote myself from another thread there's nearly always serfs & servitors tagging along with more ammo -
Throne of Light wrote:Brother-Apothecary Cadeuc worked tirelessly to drag casualties out of the line of fire.
Battle of the Fang wrote:Sturmhjart stole a quick glance over his shoulder, back toward the gaping gate-ruins. The proud arches slumped into rubble, studded with gigantic fallen lintel-stones like megaliths. In the light of the fires he could see squads of kaerls hurrying to the front, many carrying fresh ammunition crates. Some of those contained boltgun magazines. Those carriers would sell their lives to get them to the Wolves on the front line.
Deathwatch wrote:The rest of the team fell in behind them: Karras first, then Rauth, Voss, and finally Zeed, trailing four of the five gun-servitors in his wake, three of which carried the extra ammunition Voss had secured to their chassis. Strapped to the back of the last gun-servitor was a black case belonging to Sigma. As yet, the inquisitor hadn’t opted to share any information about its contents.
...
Karras glanced down at the ammunition reserves strapped to the back of the servitors’ chassis. Each carried grenades of various types and magazines loaded with bolter-rounds. One carried two extra promethium canisters to refuel Voss’s flamer. And then there were the remaining melta-charges.
Oaths of Damnation wrote:They were not the hold’s only occupants. As the Exorcists sat, a dozen figures did the opposite, rising from the benches at the far end of the compartment and shuffling to their duties. They were a detail of Chapter serfs, brought down from the Witch-Bane with instructions to resupply and administer to their masters before they re-entered combat. Clad in black-and- red robes, cowls raised, they moved down the aisle deck between the seated Space Marines, gripping the railing that ran along the compartment’s roof to steady themselves against the flyer’s juddering.
I'd guess that once the serfs / servitors had delivered their ammo they'd grab anything left behind before they return to base for more supplies (how many serfs would it take to carry a wounded / downed marine?).
There's been a couple of short stories where marines are alone without resupply and it usually does come down to using the native weapons or just punching. "Wolf at the Door" is 30k Space Wolves, "Kill Hill" Iron Snakes and another one I can't remember - the Marine died at the end but the child solders he trained were recruited by the chapter as aspirants.
I’d wager if a Marine was to use say, an Autogun, any trigger guards would have to be removed. And, whilst it’s tempting to say “wouldn’t they just commandeer heavy weapons”, again you’d need to consider whether they’d be wieldy.
It’s one thing to have the strength to run around with and fire a heavy weapon, but quite another to be accurate when doing so.
I’m blessed/cursed with big hands, and even without the nerve and tendon damage in my left hand, I can struggle with smaller items. I can use for instance, sewing scissors. But I’m better off being carful with larger scissors. Now, factor in recoil, the necessity of aiming and having a comfortable firing stance, and human scaled weapons just may not be especially practical for Marines.
The recoil is a particularly interesting one. We know that Power Armour, when worn by a Marine at least, has built in recoil compensation. Not sure if it’s just my head canon, but I imagine it as the armour resetting your stance and direction of fire with micro movements.
If that’s calibrated for set recoil (your Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Plasma Gun etc), it might well over or under compensate for other firearms, again impacting accuracy. I don’t doubt that could probably be turned off, but the Marine would still need to adapt.
"Balder's fellow veterans were in formation around him, discharging volleys of lasfire from their multilasers, providing support for Hoenir's squad."
-Warrior Brood.
The Mantis Warriors even have multilasers on Land Raiders...
All this according to the master of the Black Library: C.S. Goto.
Never assume that you will never run out of ammunition or that your logistical chain of resupply will never be disrupted. Always assume that life is messy and full of disruptions. Of course Astartes will pick up less advanced weapons, or indeed more advanced from certain Xenos factions when at all possible.
Some adaption and removal of trigger guards would be par for the course. Fortunately Astartes are extremely well suited to learn handling of new weapon types, including shooting with accuracy.
C.S. Goto odium aside, I never understood people's aversion to multilasers. It's just a las minigun. Nifty enough, and please think outside the straitjacket box that is your Codex wargear list. Use your imagination. Multilasers are excellent against unarmoured or lightly armoured targets. Their batteries are big and heavy, though. Ergo why we do not see multilasers among heavy weapon teams or lugged around by heavy weapon soldiers in 40k. Space Marines might interestingly be able to carry the burden sufficiently enough to make use of multilasers without turning completely clumsy, as long as you mount the batteries on a rig on the outside of their backpacks.
So yes, multilasers may actually be pressed into service, if facing lightly armoured foes, and if your Astartes can jury-rig their batteries onto their backpacks, or perhaps weld some sturdy handles on top for a team effort of one Marine holding the multilaser, trailing cables back to a second Imperial Marine hauling the batteries. This would not be a senseless field improvization in some situations. And warfare is always highly situational.
By the way, this topic immediately made me think of Fire Warrior (underrated game, for all its shortcomings). Naturally you will keep going and pick up whatever weapons you need to not run dry, whether Tau or Imperial... or Chaos.
bibotot wrote: Would Space Marines start using lasguns, autoguns, and even weapons looted from the enemy when they run out of ammo and cannot get to the next supply point? Is there any lore about Space Marines using primitive firearms after their bolters malfunction or run out of ammo?
You know, new Tempestus box introduced pretty glaring plot hole here. You could excuse lasguns or autoguns as being too weak, but hotshot volley guns sound like perfect weapons for SM, bolter sized, no recoil, cheap and reliable, can be plugged into his power pack for infinity-ish ammo, and always had far better stats in tabletop than bolters, both in damage and rate of fire. Any chapter with even tiniest amount of common sense should have dropped bolters ages ago and adopt them instead...
Funnily enough, these, next to lascannons, sound like perfect weapons for SM. Cheap, reliable, as good stats as heavy bolter, again infinity-ish ammo - with downsides being next to zero.
Except GW probably never will give them to SM thanks to Goto and the reaction/stupid mems 4chan idjits would do after that change. Really, any new SM vehicle with heavy stubber should have sported multilaser instead but alas, looks like that ship has sailed
Karak Norn Clansman wrote: So yes, multilasers may actually be pressed into service, if facing lightly armoured foes, and if your Astartes can jury-rig their batteries onto their backpacks, or perhaps weld some sturdy handles on top for a team effort of one Marine holding the multilaser, trailing cables back to a second Imperial Marine hauling the batteries. This would not be a senseless field improvization in some situations. And warfare is always highly situational.
Why would they need team effort when they can easily carry a handful of batteries needed for lascannon, a far more powerful weapon, or in dumber depictions, can just plug the gun into their backpack and somehow it magically works indicating reactors in suits are for some reason drastically overhbuilt for the task? If anything, it's the weapons using physical ammo you need to wonder how they exactly are any effective in the field, say heavy bolter with tiny amounts of ammo visible in belts, or massive ammo drums in HH kits that look impossible for SM to carry more than two, one on back, one in gun, all for not that big amount of ammunition either...
Bolters are not a weapon that hold up to serious scrutiny. They are essentially grenade launchers, not assault rifles, with corresponding limited magazine capacity. I would guess that when not shooting suppression fire, they go semi-auto pretty commonly and take individual aimed shots.
I would think the issue with using enemy weapons is that it seems unlikely an astartes wearing gauntlets would be able to physically pull the trigger on a human sized gun. I'm sure they have some form of work around, and Astartes would never allow themselves to be helpless, but there are more hurdles than in a historical conflict.
Don’t underestimate the psychological impact of a Bolter, and how it ties into the Astartes role as terror troops.
They don’t really leave flesh wounds, and whilst seeing your squad mates die around you, seeing them detonate messily is going to ruin your morale. Same principle as Chain weapons. They don’t just kill. They kill messily and spectacularly, causing absolute carnage in the blink of an eye.
Which is also why Volkite was the original weapon - they’re also a spectacularly nasty way to die.
Now, Las bolts are described as exploding on contact, that’s true. And a well placed one can detach a limb. But a Bolt round? Your arms gone, and so is a chunk of your torso. And bits of what used to be part of you may well be embedded in your mates horrified face.
This is where the silliness of supa speshul marine bolters destroys any practical use, because unless they're getting regular resupply they would be out of ammo in less than an hour.
If they use normal bolters just like they used to, then they could reload them with any enemy bolter rounds they find (given the percentage of marine battles that are against rebels/chaos humans, the chances are high they'll actually be able to restock from their stores).
At no point is an 'astartes' bolter being specialer and biggerer actually a good thing, not the least of which because of the ratio of the magazine to the barrel.
If people really want to insist that marine bolters fire bigger rounds based on the muzzle break they have, then you also have to accept 5 round magazines...
Or you could just say that a marine bolter looks bigger because they wrap them in their own power armour - the gun is a brick of armour. They run face first into enemy fire, they should be wielding guns as heavily armoured as they are. you could easily strip a bolter back to a barrel, magazine and grip and it would look weedy as hell.
The only reason they look like bricks is for armour and thus there's no reason to assume they are anything than uparmoured normal bolters.
Also, given that marines have fusion reactor backpacks it's really dumb that they don't just carry laser based weapons around charged from there. Hotshot volley guns would be a more sensible weapon given their existing infrastructure...
Interested about the definition of “less advanced”. We currently have all the tech required to build bolters for individual soldiers (barring the “self repair circuits”), while “lasguns” are currently required to be mounted on a lorry probably with a separate power source.
I’m with MDG, bolt weapons are used for their physical and psychological impact rather than being the pinnacle of military engineering.
There’s also an Age of Sail cannon aspect to them.
See, a cannonball crashing through your ship was deadly. Not because of the ball itself, but the ridiculous number of high velocity splinters its passage created. Some big, some small. This is why Nelson’s tactic at Trafalgar was so effective, as the cannonballs went stern to bow, creating a much longer path of carnage than port to starboard (or indeed, starboard to port).
And a Bolter can do much the same to any solid cover. Provide the round has enough oomph to penetrate whatever it is you’re hiding behind, it can detonate. Which will not only rapidly destory your cover, but will create splinters and fragments perfectly capable of injuring.
But as said, it needs to be a material the round can penetrate to some degree, and fragmentation will vary depending on the exact material.
I always thought the concept of an "astartes bolter" that did more damage was silly in the RPGs when it came up and just more marine spank to be honest. A bolter being a bolter is much more sensible to me.
I've always enjoyed the idea of the lasgun being ubiquitous because of it's logistical properties - rechargeable in a camp fire at a pinch, makes managing the huge armies of the Imperial Guard much easier. Multilaser armed Marines make a lot of sense in that paradigm, especially since their armour already has an internal power source.
I'd love to see more diversity in weapons for Chaos Marines at least - their supply lines are a lot less secure than the average Imperial Chapter, but even for Imperials you've got chapters like the Space Sharks that are essentially scavengers where alternate loadouts would make a lot of sense. I suppose a marine with his bolter is just too iconic and image to mess with too much!
We know in the real world different guns and different rounds have different properties. And I see no reason why a super solider with well beyond human strength and endurance, further enhanced by his extra speshul armour wouldn’t take advantage of that to carry a bigger than average gun.
bibotot wrote: Space Marines are expected to be one-man armies, and each of them is to hold back against thousands of foes. This, obviously, begs the question of how they have the munitions to sustain killing thousands of enemies in a single engagement. In the game, there are weapon crates and supply stations that will keep Titus well-supplied. But that can't always be the case.
Would Space Marines start using lasguns, autoguns, and even weapons looted from the enemy when they run out of ammo and cannot get to the next supply point? Is there any lore about Space Marines using primitive firearms after their bolters malfunction or run out of ammo?
I wonder if a space marines finger would fit in the trigger guard of a weapon made for a human. Especially in power armour.
Truthfully I think their ammo is resupplied via willing suspension of disbelief
Something I’d like know is how far an astartes can throw a combat knife with deadly accuracy. A pretty long way I’m guessing
Well, with the way a Strike Crusier or Battle Barge is setup, there’s nothing preventing an initial Drop Pod strike for the Astartes themselves, whilst supplies are ferried planetside by chapter serfs and/or Thunderhawks, either to a pre-arranged staging area, or behind friendly lines for later distribution to live theatres. It’s doesn’t all have to go to the same place, at the same time.
Even better if part of the initial strike force is to take out enemy AA emplacements, making airborne resupply safer by degrees.
Heck, once the drop zone is cleared, send down a Thunderhawk transporter or two with their Rhinos/Razorbacks, stocked up with fresh ammo and that. They land, deploy their goods. Marines head off, and the Transporters get to recovering the Drop Pods.
So, using the rules to model the lore (an iffy proposition, but hey, I'm bored ) a Bolt Rifle is 2 shots at S4 AP-1 D1 [Assault, Heavy] and 24". A Multilaser is 4 shots at S6 AP0 D1, no keywords.
If we assume BS is improved to match the Marine's standard 3+, then the Multilaser is basically always superior, even without accounting for Range.
A T7 2+ model without cover (like the new Death Guard Terminators) is hit the same (unless Heavy applies), wounded the same, and saves at a 3+ (Bolt Rifle) relative to a 2+ (Multilaser). Since the Multilaser has twice the shots, it ends up a wash.
But against an ordinary Terminator, at T5?
It's twice as good. Twice the shots, twice the wound odds, half the damage on saves.
From a lore point of view, I also agree that batteries are easier to manage than Bolter ammo.
I don't think SM care too much about ammo. One of their key benefits over other forces in the 41st millennium is their superior logistics and supply, helped by their focus on swift, decisive engagements. Similarly, having a weapon that's harder to maintain and more complex overall isn't a problem for such an elite force.
As has been mentioned, part of the reason for using bolters is the psychological effect of having your friends blown apart by the enemy's small arms fire. There are also advantages with the ability to customise bolter ammunition to the task at hand. Not all of it is mass-reactive explosives - they have hardened penetrator rounds, fragmentation rounds and all sorts of other ammunition, according to the lore.
The morale effect depends who they’re fighting.
Against a rag-tag rebellion? Yes, immensely effective.
Against most actual factions in 40k? Not so much.
Gert wrote: Laser rounds don't make your friends explode and shower you in their guts though.
the psychology aspect is overplayed. Every gun in 40k does horrific damage, on that scale, being a little more horrific-er does not particularly stand out.
They have underslung grenade launchers. They provide plenty of explosions.
Orbital supremacy is useful for everyone, if it's what you need to keep your marines equipped you've got problems. The amount of support behind each marine just to practically keep them in bolter rounds is so contrived that you will have effectively conquered the planet in order to allow them to bang bang instead of pew pew....
Firstly, the Bolter was created by the Emperor himself. We're not dealing with rational military minds, but rather dogmatic zealots. God made this gun, it is the most holy instrument in existence.
Second, the Bolter was made when the Imperium was bringing humanity under its control. The majority of forces the Legiones Astartes fought were humans.
Finally, a Bolter is also considered an excellent weapon for killing species like Orks. They have harder flesh and tend to shrug off most normal wounds that might not get them in one go. The wounds don't cauterize like with a laser weapon, and the shrapnel either spreads to nearby enemies or into the single target, causing yet more damage.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hellebore wrote: Orbital supremacy is useful for everyone, if it's what you need to keep your marines equipped you've got problems. The amount of support behind each marine just to practically keep them in bolter rounds is so contrived that you will have effectively conquered the planet in order to allow them to bang bang instead of pew pew....
Right, but that's not what people are saying, though? Supplies get dropped by Thunderhawk, carried in vehicles, or dropped from orbit in crisis situations.
The chances of an engagement where there are no possible ways to get ammo to the Astartes are extremely rare, and the Drop Pod example shows that there are options beyond what we currently can do in the modern day.
Hell, if things get really bad, teleportation exists. People are just set on "Bolter = Bad because bullet worse than laser".
Maybe bolters are better than laser weapons for Marines just because the ammo can be supported off a lower tech industrial base. I mean the number of crew on a battle barge or strike cruiser runs to what? Tens of thousands? I don’t think you need a terribly high level of sophistication of workers or materials to create standard bolt rounds, while las weapons are truly space magic and may require a greater attendance of Mechanicus.
When the ships aren’t actively blowing chunks out of things with their main batteries, the gun crews will need something to do. Why not make ammo?
It would be far more sensible if marines were equipped in a way that didn't need continual resupply, so they could be completely self sufficient behind enemy lines.
The Raven guard trying to be sneaky sneaks using bolters and requiring continual stealth thunderhawk ammo drops is hilarious.
They wear a reactor on their backs, so they should be carrying battery powered laser weapons. Efficient and virtually unlimited. Resupply would look like new reactor cores being dropped every decade, or year depending on how much energy they use up during the conflict.
It made a lot more sense before Primaris when Marines used normal Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Lascannons etc, which are also used by the Imperial Guard and PDF forces that Marines are so often fighting alongside/against. (Bolter ammunition coming from Storm Bolters, which were a common upgrade on IG tanks.)
Nowadays there's less apparent logistical cross-support.
Ironically, i can imagine that Devastator Squads, or any weapon specialist really, being given lots of flamers and lascannon type weaponry because i guarantee that those are slightly easier to source and supply. (and if we go by older lore where loyalists could use autocannons as well... more so the better)
Bolter is Ap-1. Multilaser is Ap0. Strength is not the only stat.
And I think it's been pretty clear since like forever that the game is abstract from the background.
A Guardsman doesn't just shoot a single shot from their weapon in a given volley. In 4th Orks were S3, the same as Guardsmen, unless they charged when it's been long established they were tougher and stronger than baseline humans.
Lexicanum states "The original Imperial boltgun was an invention of the Emperor of Mankind's own design." and references the Master of Mankind novel as source.
This topic highlights, yet again, the manifold issues of dialling up Astartes into giants. Not only are tight and low corridors their bane, and flimsy elevators a potential deathtrap due to weight (which increase for both body and power armour as you increase Marine size).
As has been well pointed out, many ordinary firearms for non-genhanced people may not fit the hands of Space Marines without some field modifications.
I guess this is yet another point to the practicality of human-sized depictions of Imperial Marines in Rogue Trader (as opposed to the literal background written by Rick Priestley shortly after the rulebook's release in 1987), contra the aesthetics of huge Marines that came after 1st edition. Not that I'm convinced of one over the other. Style matters, and rule of cool should be given its due weight. I've never been much for giants at all, anywhere, but I can see the appeal for others and that should weigh in.
Well, the architecture we see in the background, regardless of origin, is pretty huge in scale.
Remember, whilst pretty much nobody builds with Marines in Mind? There are still cargo Servitors, Sentinel chassis work horse things, all sorts of noticably taller than a smelly hooman and kinda needed for day to day shifting of the gubbins. Which also means a great many cargo lifts and that.
Not having massive corridors makes sense from a construction point of view, trying to keep the mass down so you don't need as much thrust for acceleration is sensible.
I don't mind cathedral space ships either but I prefer my Marines a little smaller than they got too and definitely prefer Marine sized Primarchs.
I think long range operation Marines with laser weapons would be a really cool alternative to the bolter shock troopers doing surgical strikes from orbit.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Multi-lasers aren’t infantry portable. They’re support weapons. We’ve seen scaled down versions in the Naval Kill Team, but so far that’s it.
You might as well argue all Astartes should carry Heavy Bolters instead of small arms versions.
Lascannons are also support weapons, but Marines toddle about with them with ease.
Also the heavy bolter toted by heavy intercessors appears to be marginally smaller than the heavy bolt rifles, so why not (for some specialisms).
Back on the Multilaser front, on the face of it power armour would be able to carry/mount a multilaser easily enough as there are enough other similarly big weapons that get issued to them.
Could it be powered off the backpack reactor? Possibly not, as marines with lascannon and even lasfusils use external additional power packs to feed the weapon. Hotshot lasguns (or whatever they are now) might actually be the sweet spot as they may be feedable off a standard backpack, or one with minimal mods.
Additionally, even moving to purely las-based weapons changes the logistics balance. Even if you could power the weapons straight off the reactor, new barrels, focussing crystals, power cables all become the new logistics train. Is production and supply of these harder or easier than the internal gubbinz of projectile weapons, plus the projectiles? At the Imperium-wide level, lasweapons are fine, but can that be scaled down to the resources of a chapter? The answer is obviously "it depends on who is writing the thing you are reading"
Personally I think all Marines should take a leaf out of Yarrick's book and have a visor-mounted laspistol (hotshot if you like) fed from their armour power supply so they can properly death-stare stuff that is slightly out of their reach
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Karak - Flimsy lifts are only a deathtrap to people who aren't able to tear out of the top with their gauntleted hands and then climb up the shaft faster than the lift could move anyway
@Mad Doc Grotsnik: Aye, that is spot on. The need for servo-haulers and big servitors or even teams of men pulling ropes to drag cargo through ships and compounds do mean that there will be many corridors fit for Marines. But there will also be smaller corridors. Claustrophobically small. It would be a great missing out of grimdark if Warhammer 40'000 did not have lots of cramped passageways, since the setting draws on the most depraved aspects of human history, and tight passages and even crawlspaces have been with us for a long time.
A tale of a Marine, presumed lost, left behind on a Feudal type world to deny him high technology, learning to lead mere smelly hoomans in revolt against an otherwise successful invading force.
We’ve had something close to that in Inferno! Years ago. But that was just a (very good) short story. Give me a full novel, maybe even a trilogy.
A tale of a Marine, presumed lost, left behind on a Feudal type world to deny him high technology, learning to lead mere smelly hoomans in revolt against an otherwise successful invading force.
We’ve had something close to that in Inferno! Years ago. But that was just a (very good) short story. Give me a full novel, maybe even a trilogy.
Wasn't it Abnett's Brotherhood of the Snake where they send 1 marine to help out the locals?
A tale of a Marine, presumed lost, left behind on a Feudal type world to deny him high technology, learning to lead mere smelly hoomans in revolt against an otherwise successful invading force.
We’ve had something close to that in Inferno! Years ago. But that was just a (very good) short story. Give me a full novel, maybe even a trilogy.
Wasn't it Abnett's Brotherhood of the Snake where they send 1 marine to help out the locals?
Yes it was.
Astartes will use whatever weapon they need - lasguns, multilasers, severed legs and arms - or just their fists and feet and acid spit
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Multi-lasers aren’t infantry portable. They’re support weapons. We’ve seen scaled down versions in the Naval Kill Team, but so far that’s it.
You might as well argue all Astartes should carry Heavy Bolters instead of small arms versions.
Lascannons are also support weapons, but Marines toddle about with them with ease.
Also the heavy bolter toted by heavy intercessors appears to be marginally smaller than the heavy bolt rifles, so why not (for some specialisms).
Back on the Multilaser front, on the face of it power armour would be able to carry/mount a multilaser easily enough as there are enough other similarly big weapons that get issued to them.
Could it be powered off the backpack reactor? Possibly not, as marines with lascannon and even lasfusils use external additional power packs to feed the weapon. Hotshot lasguns (or whatever they are now) might actually be the sweet spot as they may be feedable off a standard backpack, or one with minimal mods.
Additionally, even moving to purely las-based weapons changes the logistics balance. Even if you could power the weapons straight off the reactor, new barrels, focussing crystals, power cables all become the new logistics train. Is production and supply of these harder or easier than the internal gubbinz of projectile weapons, plus the projectiles? At the Imperium-wide level, lasweapons are fine, but can that be scaled down to the resources of a chapter? The answer is obviously "it depends on who is writing the thing you are reading"
Personally I think all Marines should take a leaf out of Yarrick's book and have a visor-mounted laspistol (hotshot if you like) fed from their armour power supply so they can properly death-stare stuff that is slightly out of their reach
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Karak - Flimsy lifts are only a deathtrap to people who aren't able to tear out of the top with their gauntleted hands and then climb up the shaft faster than the lift could move anyway
I've never seen someone try to say that the imperium-wide capability to produce billions of lasguns and all their supporting components makes it HARDER for a marine chapter to be equally equipped... or are you saying something else?
It's pretty clear there is 0 logistical issue with lasgun components, or in fact virtually any imperial gun components. On the scale of the departmento munitorum, they have millions/billions of plasma guns, lascannons, storm bolters, multi meltas etc they need to service across the imperium. If they couldn't those weapons would disappear from the ranks very quickly. Even a single hiccup in the supply train would make the next jam, or natural barrel wear remove the weapon from battle entirely. That the imperium still has millions of these weapons across all its different forces suggests this isn't a problem.
There are very likely more hotshot volley guns than there are astartes bolters in the imperium (at a very generous estimate there is 1 bolter for each marine so 1 million, despite barely half of the chapter being equipped as such)...
Logistics is one of the reasons marines SHOULDN'T be using bolters. The imperium doesn't function on logistics though, so the holiness of the gun makes it more important than the practicality of it.
We have seen Custodes kill ogryns with a thrown pebble before. So I reckon if you gave a bunch of marines a few stacks of rebar they'd probably make a mess of things when they throw them.
Additionally, could you imagine the pull strength a space marine could handle with a bow? Think Tomb King Ushabti.
cody.d. wrote: We have seen Custodes kill ogryns with a thrown pebble before. So I reckon if you gave a bunch of marines a few stacks of rebar they'd probably make a mess of things when they throw them.
Additionally, could you imagine the pull strength a space marine could handle with a bow? Think Tomb King Ushabti.
I've seen regular guys kill Eldar Skimmers by throwing stones into the intakes.
So, if the Black Library novels
Spoiler:
of C.S. Goto
are to be believed... regular Marines would have no trouble with defeating foul xenos, like the Eldar, with any weapon available.
Lasguns are often seen as joke weapons. But they’re really not. They’re at least as effective as modern firearms, and have several serious upsides to them. But, they’re just not as deadly as a bolter.
As I mentioned earlier, Bolters don’t tend to do flesh wounds. Background wise, if it penetrates your armour? You’re at least out of the immediate fight due to horrendous injuries. And a Bolter is perfectly capable of penetrating the most commonly seen armour. Same with Chainswords. A knife to the guts is going to hurt a lot, because of course it does. But a Chainsword? Make A Mess, even from relatively glancing blows. I’m not exactly claiming “one hit, one kill”, but they’re the common tools most likely to cripple or kill on the regular.
And they’re both loud and messy. Intentionally so.
For stuff like Orks? Remember their legendary resistance to injury is more about lasting injury. They can absolutely have their or someone else’s arms crudely stapled back on and survive the whole debacle. But getting the arms off in the first place isn’t especially hard. And so Bolter and Chainsword do just fine there, especially given armour of any mentionable quality is pretty uncommon in their ranks. And there, the kills come from coup de grace or bleeding out (provided the Marines drive back the existing Ork forces in the immediate area, stopping Docs getting to fallen and mangled Boyz)
I've never seen someone try to say that the imperium-wide capability to produce billions of lasguns and all their supporting components makes it HARDER for a marine chapter to be equally equipped... or are you saying something else?
It's pretty clear there is 0 logistical issue with lasgun components, or in fact virtually any imperial gun components. On the scale of the departmento munitorum, they have millions/billions of plasma guns, lascannons, storm bolters, multi meltas etc they need to service across the imperium. If they couldn't those weapons would disappear from the ranks very quickly. Even a single hiccup in the supply train would make the next jam, or natural barrel wear remove the weapon from battle entirely. That the imperium still has millions of these weapons across all its different forces suggests this isn't a problem.
There are very likely more hotshot volley guns than there are astartes bolters in the imperium (at a very generous estimate there is 1 bolter for each marine so 1 million, despite barely half of the chapter being equipped as such)...
Logistics is one of the reasons marines SHOULDN'T be using bolters. The imperium doesn't function on logistics though, so the holiness of the gun makes it more important than the practicality of it.
Apologies for my lack of clarity. What I was trying to get at is that Marine chapters have their own forges to supply their day to day needs. In my head that means ammo, weapon consumables and spare bits and gubbinz. This gives them operational flexibility on a day to day manner and not tied to the Munitorum. Now Chapters need to rely on Munitorum and Mechanicus for more advanced stuff, but seem ot be intended to be self-sufficeint day to day.
I was just exploring the potential difference in technology base needed to maintain a supply chain for projectile weapons, that are not any more advanced than current weapon systems, versus a similar supply chain for las weapons that are space magic. The ammo needs are greatly reduced, but ammo is not the only consumable for a weapon system.
Now the Imperium clearly can do that to supply lasguns to the Guard, but the entire Mechanicus and Munitorum system is set up to supply the Guard. For Marine Chapters, there may still be logistical and manufacturing benefits not to go down that route.
I agree that logistics is not the only parameter here, but just playing with some thought experiments
Hmm it could be more difficult if chapters have their own tiny supply chains separate from the rest of the imperium. Perhaps the lasguns only work at megascale, to produce everything. You could argue that the tech needed to produce them requires gigafactories, while bolter tech can be produced at smaller scales.
So the chapter doesn't have room for the MkXXIII Gigareactor to make the crystals for a lasgun, even if it would then produce a trillion a minute.
But that's requiring that they stubbornly remain independent of the greater imperial war machine, which itself is another one of those cultural idiocies over practical value... ;p
I mean define tiny. Astartes rule worlds where they get to pick up chunks of the population as slaves and they don't pay tithes.
Everything made in the forge stays with the Chapter and everything produced on the homeworld stays with the Chapter.
Chapter serfs are still slaves but they are given technical training and sometimes even enhancements to server their masters far more effectively than malnourished Manufactorum workers on an Industrial World.
Being the Emperor's Angels also means they're going to have some prime equipment in the Chapter forges.
In that period, Astartes forces were vast, closer in deployment scale to the modern Guard than modern Chapters. And they tended to go around mob handed in Crusade Fleets, comprised of many different wings of the Imperial armed forces.
Even then, their purpose and intent was to win battles as swiftly and brutally as possible where the sheer presence of such a force in a system didn’t impress or terrify a world or system into compliance.
Hence the Volkite and Bolter. Both kill swiftly, efficiently and horribly.
And the fleets were of such scale, resupply was rarely an issue. Even where a world was garrisoned, it was never “you couple of hundred stay here and muddle through as best you can”. They were left with supply chains and manufactorum to support them.
Into the modern day? Their tactics and strategies have changed to reflect their much reduced numbers. But the purpose (get in, kill as much as possible as swiftly as possible as messily as possible) remains the same, with the arguable benefit of, for most of the Galaxy, Astartes being myth made flesh.
Their entire schtick is less efficiency of supply lines, and more efficiency of action. Their purpose isn’t to merely defeat the enemy in a given battle, but to shatter its resolve and cohesion, allowing the vast numbers of the Imperial Guard and other forces of The Imperium to finish the job off thoroughly.
Despite what we see in novels? They’re really good at it. And most forces are vulnerable to such rapid and incredibly violent strikes.
I was just under the assumption that SMsdo have spare lasguns in their armory and might bring a few along on an extended mission in case all the bolters run out of ammo, but it never really comes up. It's more of an emergency fallback than a serious weapon option. But I don't see why they wouldn't have a few lying around, they're cheap and easy to use and better than throwing rocks at termagants.
That's making an assumption that combatants in 40k don't actively seek CQC fighting because it's "honourable".
The ultimate answer as to why Astartes don't use things like Lasguns or Multilasers are all down to illogical reasons.
The Bolter is a Holy Instrument. Close Combat is honourable. Dying for the Emperor instead of tactically withdrawing is the superior tactical option.
Zealots don't need logic when Divine Sanction is their default.
It’s the same ritualistic understanding of technology.
You can make Wonder Weapon A by following the held plans for Wonder Weapon A, and Wonder Weapon B by following the held plans for Wonder Weapon B.
But even if, to our modern more curious minds, You Shall Not Mix Those Designs.
A Space Marine carries his Bolter because that’s his Ritual Weapon. There’s all cants and prayers and rituals about it. It’s part of him, his identity and his warrior culture. And to many within The Imperium, a sign of status.
That there may, arguably, be weapons better suited just….doesnt come into it. A Space Marine carries a Bolter due to ritual and tradition. That’s the common sense of The Imperium.
And it’s worked out pretty well for the past 10,000 years.
Exactly. It's like the scene in Kingdom of Heaven when one of the Templars declares that "An army of Jesus Christ bearing his holy cross cannot be beaten", and then the Crusaders proceed to lose the Battle of Hattin like half an hour later (in film time of course).
Whenever anyone argues that the Crusaders can't leave water and march to meet Saladin, they are met with "Blasphemy" and "God wills it" as responses.
That's the level of fanaticism and zealotry that is baked into every single Imperial institution, even the Astartes.
The Boltgun is a holy instrument of the Emperor's Angels, designed by His very hand for them to smite the foes of the Imperium. It's not flowery language, it is a legitimate belief that a Bolter in the hands of an Astartes is the wrath of the God-Emperor given form.
Gert wrote: Exactly. It's like the scene in Kingdom of Heaven when one of the Templars declares that "An army of Jesus Christ bearing his holy cross cannot be beaten", and then the Crusaders proceed to lose the Battle of Hattin like half an hour later (in film time of course).
Whenever anyone argues that the Crusaders can't leave water and march to meet Saladin, they are met with "Blasphemy" and "God wills it" as responses.
That's the level of fanaticism and zealotry that is baked into every single Imperial institution, even the Astartes.
The Boltgun is a holy instrument of the Emperor's Angels, designed by His very hand for them to smite the foes of the Imperium. It's not flowery language, it is a legitimate belief that a Bolter in the hands of an Astartes is the wrath of the God-Emperor given form.
Even the Custodes carry bolters in their Guardian Spears, and according to the fluff, they've nee lost a battle.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Same reason as the Sisters stick to their holy trinity. Tradition. Ritual. Rote.
The weapons are symbols of faith, purpose and fidelity.
As for the Power Pack? That’s there to power the power armour, and approved accoutrements. Not just anything that comes to hand.
It’s the same reason Cawl dusted off/designed new Bolters. Not new firearms. New Bolters.
And religion Is used to control a galaxy spanning empire. So giving people something and saying this is holy, you use it because you are special and allowed to use the special thing. It’s all part of the indoctrination. Their toilet roll is probably blessed by someone before it gets shipped.
One thing I would like to point out is that in Dawn of War 2, when Tarkus becomes the traitor, he will start quoting the Codex Astartes when fighting the player's party. Tarkus claims that "Space Marines will master all weapons and all battlefields" to justify him using the Chaos-corrupted Bolter.
However, the fact it was written by G-Man can mean that Space Marines are encouraged to adapt and improvise their weapons (without turning to Chaos, of course) to suit their situations. This definitely should include using lasguns to shoot at Hormagaunts and Termagants, and reserve bolter rounds for bigger targets like Warriors or Ravenors. Like, Hormagaunts and Termagants are specifically designed to waste enemy munition, so it doesn't make sense to be killing them with expensive bolters all the time.
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Gert wrote: Exactly. It's like the scene in Kingdom of Heaven when one of the Templars declares that "An army of Jesus Christ bearing his holy cross cannot be beaten", and then the Crusaders proceed to lose the Battle of Hattin like half an hour later (in film time of course).
Whenever anyone argues that the Crusaders can't leave water and march to meet Saladin, they are met with "Blasphemy" and "God wills it" as responses.
That's the level of fanaticism and zealotry that is baked into every single Imperial institution, even the Astartes.
The Boltgun is a holy instrument of the Emperor's Angels, designed by His very hand for them to smite the foes of the Imperium. It's not flowery language, it is a legitimate belief that a Bolter in the hands of an Astartes is the wrath of the God-Emperor given form.
Kingdom of Haven is a very poor representation of history. I don't mind using misconceptions and memes to create fictional settings. However, there is a fine line between silly fun and stupidly frustrating.
Space Marines are not fanatical when it comes to the Imperial Creed, except the Black Templar, and when they are portrayed by bad writers. They are practical and very realistic when it comes to warfare. They make quotes to venerate the Emperor to boost morale, much like how real-life soldiers would still pray to God/Yahweh/Allah for protection in battle or better afterlife after murdering for secular causes, but the idea of expecting favor from the Emperor or modern-day deities for doing this or that is nonsensical. Protecting the Emperor's subjects with lasguns is still more glorious than running out of bolter ammo and letting the Orks slaughter them.
I never said it was accurate to history, I said that scene is what you should be expecting when you're faced with the illogical fanaticism of the Imperium.
Just because Astartes largely don't view the Emperor as a God, he is still venerated by them as the father/destined leader/shepherd of Mankind. You don't have to be religious to be a fanatic or a zealot.
And again, Astartes are the epitome of "Warrior Spirit". If the Bolter runs dry, they fight with their chainsword or blade, if that breaks they fight with their fists. "Only In Death Does Duty End" isn't just flowery words to Astartes, it's their creed and ethos by which they live.
The argument from tradition doesn't make sense because both bolters and lasguns were available at the creation of the space marine legions. If lasguns were better weapons for them then the Emperor would have outfitted them with lasguns from the start. Bolters just perform better as a fact of the setting; they only became "sacred" because the brilliant inventor-warlord who founded the Imperium considered them the optimal gun for killing aliens. The Guard doesn't use them for the same reason that Kasrkins don't have power armor.
Also like every month GW invents a new space marine unit with a gun that never existed before, so the idea that they're averse to adopting new weapons is bizarre to me. They apparently invent more new guns than the Tau do.
Not just built and armoured to make an absolute mockery of your small arms fire, but armed in a way that make such a firefight ludicrously one sided.
And they’re not even trying to be stealthy. Giants of myth clad in near impenetrable armour and of ridiculous resilience should your shot happen to get them in the relative weak spot.
All the time your comrades are just….sort of exploding around you. At an increasing pace as the range closes and they just won’t stop coming and the inevitable calculus of attrition falls against you and OH MY THAT ONE JUST PELVIC THRUSTED HIS WAY THROUGH A WALL
I now await Hellebores inevitable counter that somehow Astartes are in fact Sizeable Ladies Chemises, despite all sources pointing to them being horrifying foes, if not actually invincible ones.
Not just built and armoured to make an absolute mockery of your small arms fire, but armed in a way that make such a firefight ludicrously one sided.
And they’re not even trying to be stealthy. Giants of myth clad in near impenetrable armour and of ridiculous resilience should your shot happen to get them in the relative weak spot.
All the time your comrades are just….sort of exploding around you. At an increasing pace as the range closes and they just won’t stop coming and the inevitable calculus of attrition falls against you and OH MY THAT ONE JUST PELVIC THRUSTED HIS WAY THROUGH A WALL
I now await Hellebores inevitable counter that somehow Astartes are in fact Sizeable Ladies Chemises, despite all sources pointing to them being horrifying foes, if not actually invincible ones.
Im not sure when the retcon happened, but i think in older lore volkites were intended to be the standard issue service rifle for Marines at the onset of the Great crusade but due to production limitations and the budget, they went for boltguns instead
Horus Heresy 1st Edition introduced Volkite and the lore for that
And the Volkite is well suited to the same purpose. Kills rapidly and nastily, and your dying mates might just take you with them as they burst into radioactive flame.
I think it’s simply that sample marines are capable of using a powerful weapon like the bolter as easily as a guardsman can use a lasgun. If not easier.
Where as a blower or poly pistol isn’t a suitable weapon for the general infantry.
And those humans that have them as a symbol of rank or other achievement as much as combat effectiveness.
Going all the way back to Confrontation, the precursor to Necromunda serialised in White Dwarf, the Bolter was presented as a Prestige Weapon.
Loud, flashy, immensely destructive for its size. All outweighed the practical difficulties of keeping one maintained and ammo’d up* in places such as the Underhive.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Going all the way back to Confrontation, the precursor to Necromunda serialised in White Dwarf, the Bolter was presented as a Prestige Weapon.
Loud, flashy, immensely destructive for its size. All outweighed the practical difficulties of keeping one maintained and ammo’d up* in places such as the Underhive.
Yeah I really liked the original low tech aspect of necromunda where the worst weapons in 40K were high end weapons in the underhive where stub pistols and knives were the norm.
With all the talk of the bolter being about tradition and holy and so on it makes you wonder why it's still the go to weapon for CSM as well. They have some additional special weapons, but the bolter is still the Standard issue rifle apparently. So, there must be some combat quality to it and logistics that aren't that hard to support (though I'm in the Camp of "there must be a lot of not that chaotic Chaos recruitment worlds and forgeworlds in the eye of Terror, it can't be all tentacles and exploding heads all the time").
Well, they are 10,000 year old veterans. If you're a soldier who used a particular weapon system for 10,000 years you're going to still want to use that weapon because it's what you know, its probably been infused with demonic power so it probably hits harder than most other weapons and might even have some symbiotic bond because the warp is weird like that.
It's like having a phone; sure you can ditch your phone for the fancy new model, but you like your "antiquated" model of phone and don't want to deal with the new UI or idiosyncrasies that model has. Especially when the "advanced" model actually performs worse than your old phone and has a bunch of features you don't even want or need and is probably just a ploy to harvest your data to sell to ad companies anyway.
They remain weapons of considerable prestige, no matter who is wielding them.
It’s the weapon you were issued with, quite possibly pre-Heresy, and for more recent converts, most definitely pre-turncoat. Is it not just to use the weapons your false god gave you to strike down his lapdogs?
As above, that’s been your main sidearm for as long as you can remember. For some, you literally cannot put it down. Also, your squad tactics are based around it and its traits. Sure, you could swap it out for say, Heavy Stubber. But that’s a different weapon, with different benefits and drawbacks - including at least the argument other Traitor Marines might look down on your for substituting your Bolter for a lesser weapon.
I think the out of universe reason is just faction identity and not having to put a load of options on the sprue or in the rules.
But I imagine that renegade Space Marines might end up falling back on all sorts of weapons as their supply lines break down - they're hardly gonna skip out on a battle because they're out of ammo just because bolter shells are hard to source. I'd imagine a fair few of them would have "back up" las weapons due to the ease of resupply - all they need is an energy source and a fire will do in a pinch. Their armour could probably power a hotshot las anyway with some minor modification and that's not a million miles away from a bolter in terms of damage output.
I wanna do a Blackshield unit in scavenged armour with scavenged suped up las weapons now!
I think it would have been interesting if the Traitor marines used volkite weapons and other superior tech from the Heresy. One of the themes of 40k is that things get worse over time, including technology and especially weaponry.
The Ad Mech aren't against innovation because they are stupid, they are against it because they know that literally nothing they can make can ever eclipse what humanity achieved during the Dark Age of Technology, so why even bother?
The traitor marines should have been a reflection of that; ancient, spiteful warriors from the past armed with some old lost technology that humanity wished it had but can't use now because it's been thoroughly corrupted by the warp.
They don't use "new" equipment out of sheer contempt and because they know what they have is much better. It also would have made them actual threats instead of just Loyalist Marine punching bags.
That would have been suitably grim dark and bleak.
But nah, give them decrepit looking bolters because worst marines I guess.
Difficulty there is the Dark Mechanicum. The impression I get is that unless you’re a serious mover and shaker, every supply run is a new negotiation and bargain. And it’s the DM that hold most of the cards there. You want something only they can reliably provide, but they’ve a choice in who they bargain with and the prices they charge.
And from there the reality of supply and demand occurs.
I don’t doubt the DM could equip your force with really nice weapons. But is it worth that price, when you can stick with maintaining, replacing and reloading your Bolters for a lower price and/or for a longer period?
There may even be a curious balance between Warbands and forces of wildly varying sizes.
A small warband simply may not have the readies to pay to equip everyone with Really Fancy Guns. And for something like a Legion force? It’s still ruinously expensive.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Difficulty there is the Dark Mechanicum. The impression I get is that unless you’re a serious mover and shaker, every supply run is a new negotiation and bargain. And it’s the DM that hold most of the cards there. You want something only they can reliably provide, but they’ve a choice in who they bargain with and the prices they charge.
And from there the reality of supply and demand occurs.
I don’t doubt the DM could equip your force with really nice weapons. But is it worth that price, when you can stick with maintaining, replacing and reloading your Bolters for a lower price and/or for a longer period?
There may even be a curious balance between Warbands and forces of wildly varying sizes.
A small warband simply may not have the readies to pay to equip everyone with Really Fancy Guns. And for something like a Legion force? It’s still ruinously expensive.
The Soul Hunter Night Lords series kinda addresses this too.
Much of their raiding seemed to be for supplies in the early going of the first book.
Hellebore wrote: Not using lasguns is even less sensical for the chaos marines given their lack of logistical support.
Except for the 1000 Sons and their magical bolters.
that is true, 1ksons are basically space marine wraithguard, so they fire spirit energy.
But given that chaos marines have to raid the imperium a lot just for resources, it would be far, far, FAR easier for them to get their hands on lasguns, components and batteries than bolter rounds...
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Into the modern day? Their tactics and strategies have changed to reflect their much reduced numbers. But the purpose (get in, kill as much as possible as swiftly as possible as messily as possible) remains the same, with the arguable benefit of, for most of the Galaxy, Astartes being myth made flesh.
Their entire schtick is less efficiency of supply lines, and more efficiency of action. Their purpose isn’t to merely defeat the enemy in a given battle, but to shatter its resolve and cohesion, allowing the vast numbers of the Imperial Guard and other forces of The Imperium to finish the job off thoroughly.
My understanding is that the modal Space Marine action is this: Rebellion on an imperial world, the rogue governer's forces are deeply entrenched and holding off the loyalist IG in a bloody stalemate. A strike crusier shows up, deploys a company via thunderhawk and drop pod directly to the governor's palace, they crush his household guard and kill him. Fin.
Astartes are tougher and stronger and blah blah blah but the reason 10 or a hundred or even a full chapter can be so valuable is that they can arrive exactly at the crisis point.
Hellebore wrote: Not using lasguns is even less sensical for the chaos marines given their lack of logistical support.
Except for the 1000 Sons and their magical bolters.
that is true, 1ksons are basically space marine wraithguard, so they fire spirit energy.
But given that chaos marines have to raid the imperium a lot just for resources, it would be far, far, FAR easier for them to get their hands on lasguns, components and batteries than bolter rounds...
The 40k universe in general, but especially the Imperium and Chaos, are insane. The people are all inundated with propaganda, relgious zeal, drugs, hypnosis, and even literal demonic possession. I think that aside from just basic plot necessity, that explains some of the questionable choices they make.
Yup. Pin point sledgehammer right innafork. Thats Marines.
The Bolter is supremely well suited to that role. As covered before? No flesh wounds, no glancing hits. If you’re merely mangled and crippled, count yourself extremely lucky.
We know Bolt Shells are difficult to manufacture, making them rare. But in the scale of something as vast as The Imperium? Rare can lose all meaning and context. Rare can mean millions of examples, rather than billions.
Chapters have capacity to make their own gear, and will in many cases have pacts and that with worlds not immediately under their direct control for supply.
The same may be true of many Chaos Forces. They’ve the resources and gubbins in place to repair and manufacture the essentials. Certainly enough for a given engagement’s predicted duration.
That there’s not a lot of detail in the published background doesn’t mean it’s a gap the overall logistics. It’s just not particularly interesting enough to include in a given novel, as the majority of readers just want the Derring Do, not the Derring How*.
But whatever does exist? We must assume it’s efficient and effective.
If Chaos can spare the resources to make those ridiculous dragon-shaped airplanes I'm sure they can make a billion bolter rounds easily. It's not like cultists have real jobs.
Daemon Engines are quite different to normal logistics to be fair. They're pretty specifically not following the normal rules of war. I'm sure some particularly Warp Infested warbands conjure bolts of pure warp energy or tiny exploding daemons from their possessed bolters but a lot of the warbands of Chaos are not that far gone or infused with Warp energy which would dissipate in realspace anyway and are going to need real logistics. It's shown in several books that scavenging for supplies is part of their MO.
Hellebore wrote: Not using lasguns is even less sensical for the chaos marines given their lack of logistical support.
The legions are are quite capable of staying stocked up by raiding imperial worlds and stealing their supplies, manufacturing equipment and enslaving the population. Thanks to STCs there no skill in engineering as we would know it so anyone can be press ganged into making ammunition if the supplies are available.
There’s a recent emperors children’s book, I can’t think of its name, that goes into quite a bit of detail about this and some of the more unique ways in which they get about the galaxy without the imperiums navigator model.
Also I think they would look down on las rifles and pistols as weapons for mortals, all of the traitor legions are egotistical and would revere the power of a bolter and covet the terrifying power it has over lesser beings.
) a Bolt Rifle is 2 shots at S4 
