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2025/05/05 03:08:16
Subject: Space Marine using less advanced weapons?
Space Marines are expected to be one-man armies, and each of them is to hold back against thousands of foes. This, obviously, begs the question of how they have the munitions to sustain killing thousands of enemies in a single engagement. In the game, there are weapon crates and supply stations that will keep Titus well-supplied. But that can't always be the case.
Would Space Marines start using lasguns, autoguns, and even weapons looted from the enemy when they run out of ammo and cannot get to the next supply point? Is there any lore about Space Marines using primitive firearms after their bolters malfunction or run out of ammo?
2025/05/05 09:13:41
Subject: Space Marine using less advanced weapons?
Going all the way back to Rogue Trader, we saw Marines armed with all sorts, including Shuriken Catapults. And at least during the Heresy, Blackshields would use pretty much whatever they could get their hands on.
Into the modern day? Less so. Even the Blood Angel that’s gone native on Necromunda still has his Bolter.
But, I wouldn’t rule it out entirely.
My guess is there are so few Astartes, and their ships so vast (even a Hunter Class Destroyer is huge), arming and resupplying is an issue well in hand.
I’ve absolutely no concern that, if needs must, a Marine will fight with whatever comes to hand. But from the above observations, I think it must be pretty rare.
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Excellent points, Mad Doc. Conversely, this means that a ramped-up mass production of Space Marines would see more of them more often resorting to simpler firearms at hand as resupply and possibly even stockpiles and production grows strained to keep up with increased demand during some of their more strenuous campaigns. Come the crisis, come the improvization.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/05/05 09:34:05
I'd argue that isn't the case given that guns and bullets are far easier to make than a Space Marine and the Imperium seems entirely capable of producing enough Bolters and ammo that the Sororitas and Custodes have it as their primary weapon with the wider Imperium having easy access to Bolt Pistols at the very least.
2025/05/05 10:14:18
Subject: Space Marine using less advanced weapons?
Not all the same calibre though, with Astartes weapons being notably huge, to the point a mere smelly hooman couldn’t easily use it.
However, that may be a matter of just retooling. If you’ve the base technology and whatever passes for understanding of how to assemble a Bolt round, I see no reason why that couldn’t be turned to Astartes calibres. After all, you don’t need to turn out tens of thousands to resupply hundreds of soldiers.
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Early on in the Great Crusade the Legions swapped from using Volkite as their main weapon to Bolt, as the supply lines were easier to manage (but you can't beat sticking a las pack in a fire to recharge it!).
To quote myself from another thread there's nearly always serfs & servitors tagging along with more ammo -
Throne of Light wrote:Brother-Apothecary Cadeuc worked tirelessly to drag casualties out of the line of fire.
Battle of the Fang wrote:Sturmhjart stole a quick glance over his shoulder, back toward the gaping gate-ruins. The proud arches slumped into rubble, studded with gigantic fallen lintel-stones like megaliths. In the light of the fires he could see squads of kaerls hurrying to the front, many carrying fresh ammunition crates. Some of those contained boltgun magazines. Those carriers would sell their lives to get them to the Wolves on the front line.
Deathwatch wrote:The rest of the team fell in behind them: Karras first, then Rauth, Voss, and finally Zeed, trailing four of the five gun-servitors in his wake, three of which carried the extra ammunition Voss had secured to their chassis. Strapped to the back of the last gun-servitor was a black case belonging to Sigma. As yet, the inquisitor hadn’t opted to share any information about its contents.
...
Karras glanced down at the ammunition reserves strapped to the back of the servitors’ chassis. Each carried grenades of various types and magazines loaded with bolter-rounds. One carried two extra promethium canisters to refuel Voss’s flamer. And then there were the remaining melta-charges.
Oaths of Damnation wrote:They were not the hold’s only occupants. As the Exorcists sat, a dozen figures did the opposite, rising from the benches at the far end of the compartment and shuffling to their duties. They were a detail of Chapter serfs, brought down from the Witch-Bane with instructions to resupply and administer to their masters before they re-entered combat. Clad in black-and- red robes, cowls raised, they moved down the aisle deck between the seated Space Marines, gripping the railing that ran along the compartment’s roof to steady themselves against the flyer’s juddering.
I'd guess that once the serfs / servitors had delivered their ammo they'd grab anything left behind before they return to base for more supplies (how many serfs would it take to carry a wounded / downed marine?).
There's been a couple of short stories where marines are alone without resupply and it usually does come down to using the native weapons or just punching. "Wolf at the Door" is 30k Space Wolves, "Kill Hill" Iron Snakes and another one I can't remember - the Marine died at the end but the child solders he trained were recruited by the chapter as aspirants.
2025/05/05 10:35:31
Subject: Space Marine using less advanced weapons?
I’d wager if a Marine was to use say, an Autogun, any trigger guards would have to be removed. And, whilst it’s tempting to say “wouldn’t they just commandeer heavy weapons”, again you’d need to consider whether they’d be wieldy.
It’s one thing to have the strength to run around with and fire a heavy weapon, but quite another to be accurate when doing so.
I’m blessed/cursed with big hands, and even without the nerve and tendon damage in my left hand, I can struggle with smaller items. I can use for instance, sewing scissors. But I’m better off being carful with larger scissors. Now, factor in recoil, the necessity of aiming and having a comfortable firing stance, and human scaled weapons just may not be especially practical for Marines.
The recoil is a particularly interesting one. We know that Power Armour, when worn by a Marine at least, has built in recoil compensation. Not sure if it’s just my head canon, but I imagine it as the armour resetting your stance and direction of fire with micro movements.
If that’s calibrated for set recoil (your Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Plasma Gun etc), it might well over or under compensate for other firearms, again impacting accuracy. I don’t doubt that could probably be turned off, but the Marine would still need to adapt.
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"Balder's fellow veterans were in formation around him, discharging volleys of lasfire from their multilasers, providing support for Hoenir's squad."
-Warrior Brood.
The Mantis Warriors even have multilasers on Land Raiders...
All this according to the master of the Black Library: C.S. Goto.
BorderCountess wrote: Just because you're doing something right doesn't necessarily mean you know what you're doing...
Never assume that you will never run out of ammunition or that your logistical chain of resupply will never be disrupted. Always assume that life is messy and full of disruptions. Of course Astartes will pick up less advanced weapons, or indeed more advanced from certain Xenos factions when at all possible.
Some adaption and removal of trigger guards would be par for the course. Fortunately Astartes are extremely well suited to learn handling of new weapon types, including shooting with accuracy.
C.S. Goto odium aside, I never understood people's aversion to multilasers. It's just a las minigun. Nifty enough, and please think outside the straitjacket box that is your Codex wargear list. Use your imagination. Multilasers are excellent against unarmoured or lightly armoured targets. Their batteries are big and heavy, though. Ergo why we do not see multilasers among heavy weapon teams or lugged around by heavy weapon soldiers in 40k. Space Marines might interestingly be able to carry the burden sufficiently enough to make use of multilasers without turning completely clumsy, as long as you mount the batteries on a rig on the outside of their backpacks.
So yes, multilasers may actually be pressed into service, if facing lightly armoured foes, and if your Astartes can jury-rig their batteries onto their backpacks, or perhaps weld some sturdy handles on top for a team effort of one Marine holding the multilaser, trailing cables back to a second Imperial Marine hauling the batteries. This would not be a senseless field improvization in some situations. And warfare is always highly situational.
By the way, this topic immediately made me think of Fire Warrior (underrated game, for all its shortcomings). Naturally you will keep going and pick up whatever weapons you need to not run dry, whether Tau or Imperial... or Chaos.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2025/05/05 19:30:19
bibotot wrote: Would Space Marines start using lasguns, autoguns, and even weapons looted from the enemy when they run out of ammo and cannot get to the next supply point? Is there any lore about Space Marines using primitive firearms after their bolters malfunction or run out of ammo?
You know, new Tempestus box introduced pretty glaring plot hole here. You could excuse lasguns or autoguns as being too weak, but hotshot volley guns sound like perfect weapons for SM, bolter sized, no recoil, cheap and reliable, can be plugged into his power pack for infinity-ish ammo, and always had far better stats in tabletop than bolters, both in damage and rate of fire. Any chapter with even tiniest amount of common sense should have dropped bolters ages ago and adopt them instead...
Funnily enough, these, next to lascannons, sound like perfect weapons for SM. Cheap, reliable, as good stats as heavy bolter, again infinity-ish ammo - with downsides being next to zero.
Except GW probably never will give them to SM thanks to Goto and the reaction/stupid mems 4chan idjits would do after that change. Really, any new SM vehicle with heavy stubber should have sported multilaser instead but alas, looks like that ship has sailed
Karak Norn Clansman wrote: So yes, multilasers may actually be pressed into service, if facing lightly armoured foes, and if your Astartes can jury-rig their batteries onto their backpacks, or perhaps weld some sturdy handles on top for a team effort of one Marine holding the multilaser, trailing cables back to a second Imperial Marine hauling the batteries. This would not be a senseless field improvization in some situations. And warfare is always highly situational.
Why would they need team effort when they can easily carry a handful of batteries needed for lascannon, a far more powerful weapon, or in dumber depictions, can just plug the gun into their backpack and somehow it magically works indicating reactors in suits are for some reason drastically overhbuilt for the task? If anything, it's the weapons using physical ammo you need to wonder how they exactly are any effective in the field, say heavy bolter with tiny amounts of ammo visible in belts, or massive ammo drums in HH kits that look impossible for SM to carry more than two, one on back, one in gun, all for not that big amount of ammunition either...
2025/05/05 20:26:21
Subject: Space Marine using less advanced weapons?
Bolters are not a weapon that hold up to serious scrutiny. They are essentially grenade launchers, not assault rifles, with corresponding limited magazine capacity. I would guess that when not shooting suppression fire, they go semi-auto pretty commonly and take individual aimed shots.
I would think the issue with using enemy weapons is that it seems unlikely an astartes wearing gauntlets would be able to physically pull the trigger on a human sized gun. I'm sure they have some form of work around, and Astartes would never allow themselves to be helpless, but there are more hurdles than in a historical conflict.
2025/05/05 20:29:00
Subject: Space Marine using less advanced weapons?
Don’t underestimate the psychological impact of a Bolter, and how it ties into the Astartes role as terror troops.
They don’t really leave flesh wounds, and whilst seeing your squad mates die around you, seeing them detonate messily is going to ruin your morale. Same principle as Chain weapons. They don’t just kill. They kill messily and spectacularly, causing absolute carnage in the blink of an eye.
Which is also why Volkite was the original weapon - they’re also a spectacularly nasty way to die.
Now, Las bolts are described as exploding on contact, that’s true. And a well placed one can detach a limb. But a Bolt round? Your arms gone, and so is a chunk of your torso. And bits of what used to be part of you may well be embedded in your mates horrified face.
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This is where the silliness of supa speshul marine bolters destroys any practical use, because unless they're getting regular resupply they would be out of ammo in less than an hour.
If they use normal bolters just like they used to, then they could reload them with any enemy bolter rounds they find (given the percentage of marine battles that are against rebels/chaos humans, the chances are high they'll actually be able to restock from their stores).
At no point is an 'astartes' bolter being specialer and biggerer actually a good thing, not the least of which because of the ratio of the magazine to the barrel.
If people really want to insist that marine bolters fire bigger rounds based on the muzzle break they have, then you also have to accept 5 round magazines...
Or you could just say that a marine bolter looks bigger because they wrap them in their own power armour - the gun is a brick of armour. They run face first into enemy fire, they should be wielding guns as heavily armoured as they are. you could easily strip a bolter back to a barrel, magazine and grip and it would look weedy as hell.
The only reason they look like bricks is for armour and thus there's no reason to assume they are anything than uparmoured normal bolters.
Also, given that marines have fusion reactor backpacks it's really dumb that they don't just carry laser based weapons around charged from there. Hotshot volley guns would be a more sensible weapon given their existing infrastructure...
Interested about the definition of “less advanced”. We currently have all the tech required to build bolters for individual soldiers (barring the “self repair circuits”), while “lasguns” are currently required to be mounted on a lorry probably with a separate power source.
I’m with MDG, bolt weapons are used for their physical and psychological impact rather than being the pinnacle of military engineering.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/05/06 06:54:55
Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
There’s also an Age of Sail cannon aspect to them.
See, a cannonball crashing through your ship was deadly. Not because of the ball itself, but the ridiculous number of high velocity splinters its passage created. Some big, some small. This is why Nelson’s tactic at Trafalgar was so effective, as the cannonballs went stern to bow, creating a much longer path of carnage than port to starboard (or indeed, starboard to port).
And a Bolter can do much the same to any solid cover. Provide the round has enough oomph to penetrate whatever it is you’re hiding behind, it can detonate. Which will not only rapidly destory your cover, but will create splinters and fragments perfectly capable of injuring.
But as said, it needs to be a material the round can penetrate to some degree, and fragmentation will vary depending on the exact material.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/05/06 08:14:11
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I always thought the concept of an "astartes bolter" that did more damage was silly in the RPGs when it came up and just more marine spank to be honest. A bolter being a bolter is much more sensible to me.
I've always enjoyed the idea of the lasgun being ubiquitous because of it's logistical properties - rechargeable in a camp fire at a pinch, makes managing the huge armies of the Imperial Guard much easier. Multilaser armed Marines make a lot of sense in that paradigm, especially since their armour already has an internal power source.
I'd love to see more diversity in weapons for Chaos Marines at least - their supply lines are a lot less secure than the average Imperial Chapter, but even for Imperials you've got chapters like the Space Sharks that are essentially scavengers where alternate loadouts would make a lot of sense. I suppose a marine with his bolter is just too iconic and image to mess with too much!
We know in the real world different guns and different rounds have different properties. And I see no reason why a super solider with well beyond human strength and endurance, further enhanced by his extra speshul armour wouldn’t take advantage of that to carry a bigger than average gun.
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bibotot wrote: Space Marines are expected to be one-man armies, and each of them is to hold back against thousands of foes. This, obviously, begs the question of how they have the munitions to sustain killing thousands of enemies in a single engagement. In the game, there are weapon crates and supply stations that will keep Titus well-supplied. But that can't always be the case.
Would Space Marines start using lasguns, autoguns, and even weapons looted from the enemy when they run out of ammo and cannot get to the next supply point? Is there any lore about Space Marines using primitive firearms after their bolters malfunction or run out of ammo?
I wonder if a space marines finger would fit in the trigger guard of a weapon made for a human. Especially in power armour.
Truthfully I think their ammo is resupplied via willing suspension of disbelief
Something I’d like know is how far an astartes can throw a combat knife with deadly accuracy. A pretty long way I’m guessing
2025/05/06 17:28:19
Subject: Space Marine using less advanced weapons?
Well, with the way a Strike Crusier or Battle Barge is setup, there’s nothing preventing an initial Drop Pod strike for the Astartes themselves, whilst supplies are ferried planetside by chapter serfs and/or Thunderhawks, either to a pre-arranged staging area, or behind friendly lines for later distribution to live theatres. It’s doesn’t all have to go to the same place, at the same time.
Even better if part of the initial strike force is to take out enemy AA emplacements, making airborne resupply safer by degrees.
Heck, once the drop zone is cleared, send down a Thunderhawk transporter or two with their Rhinos/Razorbacks, stocked up with fresh ammo and that. They land, deploy their goods. Marines head off, and the Transporters get to recovering the Drop Pods.
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So, using the rules to model the lore (an iffy proposition, but hey, I'm bored ) a Bolt Rifle is 2 shots at S4 AP-1 D1 [Assault, Heavy] and 24". A Multilaser is 4 shots at S6 AP0 D1, no keywords.
If we assume BS is improved to match the Marine's standard 3+, then the Multilaser is basically always superior, even without accounting for Range.
A T7 2+ model without cover (like the new Death Guard Terminators) is hit the same (unless Heavy applies), wounded the same, and saves at a 3+ (Bolt Rifle) relative to a 2+ (Multilaser). Since the Multilaser has twice the shots, it ends up a wash.
But against an ordinary Terminator, at T5?
It's twice as good. Twice the shots, twice the wound odds, half the damage on saves.
From a lore point of view, I also agree that batteries are easier to manage than Bolter ammo.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2025/05/06 21:35:31
Subject: Space Marine using less advanced weapons?
I don't think SM care too much about ammo. One of their key benefits over other forces in the 41st millennium is their superior logistics and supply, helped by their focus on swift, decisive engagements. Similarly, having a weapon that's harder to maintain and more complex overall isn't a problem for such an elite force.
As has been mentioned, part of the reason for using bolters is the psychological effect of having your friends blown apart by the enemy's small arms fire. There are also advantages with the ability to customise bolter ammunition to the task at hand. Not all of it is mass-reactive explosives - they have hardened penetrator rounds, fragmentation rounds and all sorts of other ammunition, according to the lore.
2025/05/06 21:53:38
Subject: Space Marine using less advanced weapons?
The morale effect depends who they’re fighting.
Against a rag-tag rebellion? Yes, immensely effective.
Against most actual factions in 40k? Not so much.
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2025/05/06 22:34:53
Subject: Space Marine using less advanced weapons?
Gert wrote: Laser rounds don't make your friends explode and shower you in their guts though.
the psychology aspect is overplayed. Every gun in 40k does horrific damage, on that scale, being a little more horrific-er does not particularly stand out.
They have underslung grenade launchers. They provide plenty of explosions.
Orbital supremacy is useful for everyone, if it's what you need to keep your marines equipped you've got problems. The amount of support behind each marine just to practically keep them in bolter rounds is so contrived that you will have effectively conquered the planet in order to allow them to bang bang instead of pew pew....
Firstly, the Bolter was created by the Emperor himself. We're not dealing with rational military minds, but rather dogmatic zealots. God made this gun, it is the most holy instrument in existence.
Second, the Bolter was made when the Imperium was bringing humanity under its control. The majority of forces the Legiones Astartes fought were humans.
Finally, a Bolter is also considered an excellent weapon for killing species like Orks. They have harder flesh and tend to shrug off most normal wounds that might not get them in one go. The wounds don't cauterize like with a laser weapon, and the shrapnel either spreads to nearby enemies or into the single target, causing yet more damage.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hellebore wrote: Orbital supremacy is useful for everyone, if it's what you need to keep your marines equipped you've got problems. The amount of support behind each marine just to practically keep them in bolter rounds is so contrived that you will have effectively conquered the planet in order to allow them to bang bang instead of pew pew....
Right, but that's not what people are saying, though? Supplies get dropped by Thunderhawk, carried in vehicles, or dropped from orbit in crisis situations.
The chances of an engagement where there are no possible ways to get ammo to the Astartes are extremely rare, and the Drop Pod example shows that there are options beyond what we currently can do in the modern day.
Hell, if things get really bad, teleportation exists. People are just set on "Bolter = Bad because bullet worse than laser".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/05/06 22:49:45
2025/05/06 23:09:38
Subject: Space Marine using less advanced weapons?
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
) a Bolt Rifle is 2 shots at S4 
