The arc was called Rise and Fall. I think at least part of it is published in TPB here. Roy kills Electrocutoiner (after almost killing him and being dissuaded from it by Ollie) and Ollie himself eventually kills Prometheus (another anti-Batman). The focus was really the Green Arrow, as you can see.
Well after a month, you guys should post what you think is the stand out title of the reboot. I want to get one, but don't know which one. Would prefer a Batman title. His titles aren't as rebooted as the others it seems though. Not sure about Detective comics, wonder if "Batman" will be better. DC's big gun Jim Lee is doing JLA of course.
I like Tony Daniel so I'm looking forward to the second-ever number one. I subbed all the bat-titles so will hopefully be able to provide ongoing reviews for your enjoyment, KC.
Well got to read the comics I got yesterday, some good, some stinkers.
Hawk and Dove: Man I hate Liefeld's art. It killed it for me. The story wasn't all that interesting and coupled with his limited way of showing expressions (all angry people have the same expression, all surprised people have expressions) and general bad drawing made me skip through it half way in. I will not be picking up this title.
Batwing: A surprise treat for me. I had no interest in this title but the story was good, the character was compelling. I'll be picking the next issue or two to see how it goes.
JLI: This was a good read. I liked the dickering and snide comments going on between the team members. Art was good, story was good; not a great comic but entertaining and good. This is one of my 6 month pulls and I'll be sticking with it.
Static Shock: I wanted to like this comic more but it was really just ok. I was happy to see Hardware in it but wished they could have used some better villians. Interesting end that has enough to get me to buy the next issue though.
Stormwatch: Possibly my favorite one. A little slow but needing that to introduce characters. My favorite line was from Martian Manhunter. "With JLA I am a hero, when I need to be a warrior I am here." Sets up some good action with the green guy. This is another 6 month pull for me and I'll be keeping to it.
Action Comics: Superman, being ... well... a dogooder punk. An extremely effeminate Lex Luthor. Despite this I'll be picking up issue 2 as there were good spots that make me think this will be a good series, just a rocky start.
Green Arrow: Another surprise for me. I figured I'd have no interest but the new Ollie is interesting and he uses more that a bow and arrow. Taking on a bunch of European villians he makes good comment on people who try to be bad just to be famous. Another one I'll grab issue 2.
O.M.A.C.: Another stinker. The crude, pseudo Kirby art style killed it for me. Basically the story was "Rah me smash through walls to get what I want." Not gonna revisit this one.
Swampthing: Interesting story. Good art. Alec doesn't want to be Swampthing anymore, but that doesn't look like his fate. Will be picking this up again.
Men of War: Another good one. I was hoping this would be a good story and it was. Joe Rock is a reluctant hero and I'm very interested to see average soldiers pitted against metahumans. Another 6 month pull for me that I will keep.
Sadly I couldn't get Detective Comics, Batgirl and Animalman. Comic guy said he'd try to get them fro me though.
Interesting and troubling issue thoughout the comics was Superman was in several and in different incarnations. Action Comics has him starting out and in a teeshirt and jeans, jumping around and running fast. Others he is in the new Kryptonian armor and flying. As far as I know, they are all supposed to be in the same time save the first six JLA which take place 6 months in the past.
Batwing: A surprise treat for me. I had no interest in this title but the story was good, the character was compelling. I'll be picking the next issue or two to see how it goes.
Thanks for the review. I've heard good things about this one elsewhere, too, and will probably pick it up myself.
Batwing: A surprise treat for me. I had no interest in this title but the story was good, the character was compelling. I'll be picking the next issue or two to see how it goes.
Thanks for the review. I've heard good things about this one elsewhere, too, and will probably pick it up myself.
Yeah, my first thought of Batwing was "Batman in Africa... meh." Then I read it and thought "Batman in Africa... a whole continent that is a virtual Gotham City.... cool!"
Okay, only had a quick read, but I picked up Action Comics, Animal Man, JLI and OMAC, the latter really out of curiosity. That detective comics page had me tempted.. but that way lays all the bat books and my bank account aint all that.
Action Comics is great, gorgeous art, with a great sense of motion and energy to it. If you can get, I'd do so.
Oh, AFAIK, Action Comics is actually set 5 or so yeasr ago -- DC universe wise, not long after Supe's first appearence -- he can't fly yet, merely leap, isn't as strong as he will be etc etc. The Superman, JLA and the like are all set "now" in the DC universe, with a more grown up and seasoned supes... battle armour and all.
Animal Man also lived up to the hype, language aside this could practically be a vertigo book still. was good to see his family in the book again, it's almost like the book is carrying on from where Morrison stopped writing it all those years ago. Art won't be to everyone's taste, but it suits the book, especially the dream/nightmare bits... jeez !
JLI is fun. Jurgens knows what he's doing and we're off and running quite quickly, every character getting a moment or two. he writes a good Batman too, Lopestri's pencils are slick and fitting.
Overall JUrgens seems to have a nice blend here, some ncie subplots and future conflicts are hinted at too. ... I'd maybe prefer it if Rocket Red was Dimitri.. but, I guess, he's dead ? If he even existed at all ?
.. anyway... I'll get #2 at least.
OMac is pretty much a Kirby tribute book. Giffens art I like and here it's almost spooky.A hint of Heckler thrown into too perhaps ? Story is.. alright, just not quite my thing. I won't be picking this up as an ongoing series, but it does have some potential for big old slap bang rock'em sock'em action.
Wanted a look at Swamp Thing.. sold out, have to dig around.
s8n, you're not getting Detective Comics #1!? This is your only chance to have a Detective Comics #1! It's the comic that put Detective Comics in "Detective Comics Comics"!
well, it seems as if something nice might come out of this
I hardly can conceive of the level of sheer douchebaggery involved in preying on a mentally disabled person in order to steal the one thing in his life that brings him real joy.
Batgirl was pretty good. Simone is dealing with Babs's insecurity about walking again very well. There's something of a parallel there with folks not being sure who she is (one grateful citizen says "thank you, Batwoman"). I didn't care for the quirky roommate that MadEdric mentioned in his review and I hope Simone is setting her up to take her down. Now this only applies if she's really just a quirky roommate. Something tells me she's more than that, possibly a villain. The Mirror is a neat and suitably creepy villain so far, reminiscent of Phantasm in delivery. Babs's new getup is okay; I have a feeling it's "very 2011." Her Batcycle is pretty badass in that same will-be-dated way. I'm really looking forward to this series.
Only trouble is, as the stupidest man in the world, I accidentally set my copy into some condensation from my drink, ruining the back cover and last page. My head asploded.
Next week looks like a bunch of hit and misses for me.
Batman and Robin: Never been a fan of Batman solo books. Not expecting much for me here.
Batwoman: Same as above, never been a fan of the Bat family.
Deathstroke: Expect a lot of needless violence. Always a turn off for me.
Demon Knights: Not sure what to think, but the Dark line hasn't been letting me down so far. Might be a nice surprise for me.
Frankenstein: On my pull list. I like this character and the creature commandos. Hoping for the best.
Grifter: No idea who or what this character is, save he uses guns. I hate heroes that use guns. So 90's.
Legion Lost: On my pull list. I've liked most Legion runs so this was easy. But don't the Legion people travel in time all the time?
Mister Terrific: Another on my pull list. I've never read anything about this character but his skill set interests me.
Red Lanterns: Guys vomiting blood. I expect more needless violence in this one. But if they feature the angry kitty red lantern I may be happy.
Resurrection Man: Know nothing except he dies and gets reborn with new powers. Could be good, is in the Dark line so I'll be expecting something I may like.
Suicide Squad: Hate the new Harly Quinn look and again, another book I expect to have over the top violence and most likely King Shark will eat people. No high hopes for this one.
Superboy: A superman clone, not sure what to think of this one.
So far it's been the ones I knew little about that have impressed me the most. So I'm hoping for more hits than misses this time around. A lot of books that will most likely be over the top violence though so we'll see.
Dakkanauts are in luck because I will be getting B&R, Batwoman, Deathstroke, Demon Knights, and Suicide Squad. They all look terrific to me. Deathstroke, DK, and SS are all on "probation," however, unlike the key batfam books.
Anung Un Rama wrote:Wait wait wait wait wait....
She can walk again?! I thought she just never got shot at all.
Nope she was definitely shot and she was Oracle for a while, too. Now she's on her feet as Batgirl again, attributed in issue 1 to a "miracle" -- metaphor? literal truth? Who can tell in the world of comics?
She can walk again?! I thought she just never got shot at all.
That's what I thought too. Weirdness. I guess it's good because it keeps that part of her character instead of just erasing it like a certain webhead's now confusing life...
Okay, that's ... weird. I only know "O" from Batman stories, never read Birds of Prey, but it seems a bit drastic, considering what I know about her. Wasn't she a much bigger help to the Bat family as Oracle as another Gotham Knight could possibly be?
Picked up Batgirl and JLI on friday, I went specifically for Batgirl, and saw JLI and thought what the hell.
I liked them both, and as someone who didn't read the Killing Joke storyline, have no issues with the change, although I did like Oracle in a couple of cartoon shows I've seen.
Have put Batgirl aside from issue 2 with no doubts, and will be collecting it.
JLI was pretty good as well, not sure I'd pick it up every week, thinking on it at the moment, but I'm going to let all my other issues arrive before I make the call.
Although with Fire and Ice, plus Vixen in the team its a tough one for me to call.
Tbh its just nice to be reading comics again. With the X-men and Spiderman UK compilation issues I get as well each month from the shop, I'm reading more comics than I have in a long time.
Earlier today, Diamond Comic Distributors, the world’s largest distributor of comics, graphic novels, and pop culture merchandise, officially announced that JUSTICE LEAGUE issue 1, written by Geoff Johns and drawn by Jim Lee and Scott Williams, is the bestselling comic book for the month of August—and to date, all of 2011.
That’s the headline—and it’s a good one—but, for those interested, here’s a further look inside the numbers for DC COMICS-THE NEW 52:
· With a first printing exceeding 200,000 copies, JUSTICE LEAGUE #1 was the highest first printing of any DC Comics’ title since 2006′s JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA # 1 by NEW YORK TIMES bestselling writer Brad Meltzer, Ed Benes and Sandra Hope.
· The 200,000 first printing figure includes the digital combo pack and all variant editions, but not digital sales. The first printing was sold out at Diamond within hours of going on sale. The second printing of JUSTICE LEAGUE also sold out in less than 24 hours and the issue is now in its third printing.
· The DC Comics App peaked at # 4 on iTunes for Top Grossing I-Pad Apps. during the first week of The New 52.
· JUSTICE LEAGUE is one of ten titles so far from DC COMICS-THE NEW 52 with print runs of more than 100,000 (ACTION COMICS, BATGIRL, BATMAN, BATMAN AND ROBIN, BATMAN: THE DARK KNIGHT, DETECTIVE COMICS, FLASH, GREEN LANTERN, SUPERMAN).
· All 13 of the Week 2 titles from DC Comics: The New 52 have sold out from Diamond and are going back to press—ACTION COMICS, ANIMAL MAN, BATGIRL, BATWING, DETECTIVE COMICS, GREEN ARROW, HAWK & DOVE, JUSTICE LEAGUE INTERNATIONAL, MEN OF WAR, OMAC, STATIC SHOCK, STORMWATCH and SWAMP THING.
· With its second printing, ACTION COMICS, joins JUSTICE LEAGUE as the second title to date from DC Comics-The New 52 with more than 200,000 copies in print.
· All 13 of the Week 3 titles from DC Comics: The New 52 have sold out from Diamond in advance of publication and are going back to press, including BATMAN AND ROBIN, BATWOMAN, DEATHSTROKE, DEMON KNIGHTS, FRANKENSTEIN, AGENT OF S.H.A.D.E., GREEN LANTERN, GRIFTER, LEGION LOST, MISTER TERRIFIC, RED LANTERNS, RESURRECTION MAN, SUICIDE SQUAD and SUPERBOY.
Pretty good for these days but not the 90s resurgence they were hoping for. Wouldn't be surprised if the overall amount of issues sold for the whole company is like triple normal or more this month.
"By the mother of pain!" I like it. I can never make my mind up about the GL family of books. I like the galactic space cops idea but something, I'm not sure what, rubs me the wrong way. Maybe it's Hal?
I like Frankenstein! Really enjoyed Frankencastle and was sad to see it ending so soon. If we can get some crosovers with the regular DC guys it would be even better.
And I still can't imagine how a book about Red Lanterns could work. But that preview was really weird.
Batwoman and Suicide Squad arrived this morning. I really liked them both, best two so far for me.
Spoiler:
Batwoman seemed a little all over the place, but that might be the writers style, but it jumped from scene to scene, sometimes leaving it feel half finished, it wasn't too distracting mind and it has a dark storyline to kick it off, so I'm sold.
Will need to look up the girl training with her mind, is that a sidekick in the making?
In all probably my fave comic of the four I've read so far, and will be looking forward to it next month.
Suicide Squad made my laugh a fair few times, I have no idea who most of them are, but I'm enjoying the ride. Harley was the main reason I picked it mind, and she didn't disappoint.
I picked up a swath of titles last night but haven't had a chance to read them. I'm most excited about B&R, Red Lanterns, and Deathstroke so those will likely be my first stops. I've been catching up on Blackest Night lately so I also want to see Sinestro back in the GLCorps in GL1. Should be weird!
@MDS: Did you read the last Batwoman arc? It was pretty weird so what you're describing seems pretty well in-line.
I've never really brought a DC comic before this restart, well other then the very occasional Batman UK combo comic thingy they do over here thats a year or so out of date.
So I'd not seen her stuff before, just liked what I have read about her, and like her costume.
Waiting on Batman, Birds of Prey, Red Hood and Carwoman now.
I'll be honest here, that for a long time in the nineties I collected Marvel and as a younger man brought into the whole 'us v's them' mentality going around at the time. So didn't pick up DC because of some ill-perceived fanboy behaviour.
However since about 99' I've not really picked up comics at all. Then last year the shop (ie our family store, which is a supermarker/newsagent village shop) started getting in odd comics randomly, our distributor sends stuff on occasion we don't ask for just to see how it sells.
So I was able to pick up a few Batman UK edition comics, then since about May this year I began getting the Astonishing Spiderman UK combo comic, and the X-men combo. They usually consist of two old issues, one from about a year or so ago, and usually another from the classic era.
So when they announced the new 52, it occured to me, I'd enjoyed the DC films, cartoons series over the years, more so than may 'favoured' Marvel ones. Realised I'd been a fool in my youth, and decided to give them a shot as it seemed a logical place to step back in.
So my first picks are based around characters I have enjoyed via other media. Batman, Batwoman, JL for the series, and I liked Cyborg in TT, Catwoman, Batgirl, Red Hood for Starfire. Almost silly reasons to pick them, but I am enjoying the chance to follow stories in comic form again.
Teen Titans is a fave show of mine, real shame it got canned, although I am not sure as obviously the comic Teen Titans are not anything similar, although I am sure it'll be an interesting read.
Has Raven been placed anywhere in the new 52 btw? I can't see her name in any of the team ups, but I may have missed one.
Yesterday I bought Resurrection Man, Frankenstein, Legion Lost, Batman and Robin and Demon Knights.
Only read, quickly, Res. Man and Demon Knights, but they've both piques my interest enough to stay on the pull list. The latter , whilst perhaps a little exposition heavy in parts, but it is the get-the-team-together issue so it's understandable, seems delightfully quirky. I'm a sucker for things Arthurian related as well so no surprise really.
Finally finished the second week of DC comics.
Demon Knights: Had no interest in this title. Art was good though and the story while slow to start I think has enough to hook me in for a few more issues. You get Etrigan, Vandal Savage, Madame Xanadu? The Shining Knight and a couple others I didn't recognize. The book reminded me a lot of the Seven Soldiers of Victory so I'll follow it for a bit.
Grifter: Another I knew nothing about and frankly did not impress me. The art is actually quite good and while the story was a little interesting it just wasn't enough to garner a second issue for me.
Mister Terrific: One of my 6 month pulls. Art was passable and the story was a little slow and confusing. We get flash backs and visits from the future. We didn't get to see Mr. Terrific be particularly smart. Not a stellar first issue but I'll be sticking with it to see if it shapes up.
Frankenstein Agent of S.H.A.D.E.: Interesting concept for me. Another of my 6 month pulls. Basic start, we get introduced to the team, we get a tour of S.H.A.D.E. HQ and we get a start on a mission. A big WTF for anyone that just read the Flashpoint Frankenstein though. Frank knows no one from the team and some backgrounds are different. Reboot though. I liked the comic save for one thing. Why is Father Time a preteen Japanese girl and even though they explain he gets a new form every decade why does he insist on wearing the schoolgirl outfit?
Superboy: OK, we start with him being cloned again. Looks like tactile TK powers again. Mystery redhead that is pretty obvious who it is though it was surprising to see this Wildstorm character added to DC main stream. We get a preview of who they want Superboy to go against and fans of Young Justice will probably be excited. All in all a good comic though I'm on the fence whether I'll pick up another issue.
Red Lanterns: Starts with Angry Cat being angry. I like Angry Cat. Then we see Atrocius (sp) turning soft (well not being psychotically homicidal and the Red Lanterns starting to lose respect for him. Larfleeze is now a red lantern...not sure many will like that. I just couldn't get into this book, despite my love for Angry Cat. No second chance from me.
Death Stroke: I went in not wanting to like this book and went away with a totally different reason to dislike it. I expected over the top violence, and there was. Sadly though what Death Stroke does in this book in no way was impressive. I expected a hard hit for someone of his caliber, instead we get full page splash of him entering the hit site and several panels of a boring fight. Then some uneasy dialogue between him and the hit target. He also gets shackled with an irritating crew. Only shining point is he doesn't finish the issue with an irritating crew. Basically I found the issue boring and won't be visiting this one again.
Batman and Robin: Just couldn't get into this one. To start I'm not a big Bat family fan. Suddenly Bruce has a son and the kid is the most soulless being I've seen. Mocking Bruce for morning his parent's deaths, not caring that they were his grandparents. Basically a head strong idiot with batman trained skills. The art though was good. Another no go for me.
Green Lantern: Sinestro as a reluctant Green lantern. I like this idea. Sinestro seeing his Yellow Lanterns terrorizing his home world. I like this. Sinestro going to a depowered Hal Jordan and asking for his help. Not sure about this since they give no reason why Hal is depowered. Art was good, his battle with a Yellow Lantern was nice. I'll probably go for another couple of issues.
Batwoman: Gorgeous Art work, confusing story. Mostly because I know nothing of this character. I can't really anything bad about this book but I'm just not sure if it grabs me. We'll see.
Suicide Squad: Two reasons I hate this book. Harley Quinn's new pycho slut look and Amanda Waller now a slim and sexy model type. I liked the old Harley look, it wa sfun and it lent to her opponents underestimating her. The new outfit is just trashy. Amanda Waller has always been a favorite of mine. I liked her stocky look, she actually looked like a woman hardened criminals would be scared of. Now we see a thin pretty girl. Do not like. Oh.. the story? It was crap. Not interesting at all. Art was fine. Not gonna pick this one up again.
Legion Lost: We get a group of not so popular or known Legion folk. Tellus, Dawnstar, Tyroc (and not a funkadelic Tyroc either), Gates, Wildfire, Timber Wolf and Yera, a female shapeshifter. Their time bubble is damaged as they chase a criminal to the past. He's had a day head start on them and seems to have released something nasty. Did I mention they have Tellus and Gates? Tellus and Gates! I freaking love Tellus and Gates! Good art to boot. Another 6 month pull for me.
Resurrection Man: Knew nothing about this book. The art is good the story good. Nothing great about either, just good. We get introduced to the man and his starnge power of dying and coming back with a new power. Seems the powers above and below both have keen interest in a man who can't die. I think this one piqued my interest just enough to go for a few more issues.
All in all not as good a week as last week.
Speacking of last week. I finally got hold of both Batgirl and Animal Man.
Batgirl was good. I loved the art. I liked seeing Babs mobile and kicking booty. Seems Killing Joke did happen and she was "cured", how we don't know yet. A bat book I like. Possibly because Babs is positive and uplifting, not grim and gritty. Will look at a few more.
Animal Man was very good. We get the Red, the animal version of Swampthing's Green. The Red does not look to be happy. The Green does not look to be happy. I think we're going to get an Animal Man and Swampthing cross over soon. I like this.
Batman, Birds of Prey and Catwoman arrived this morning.
Spoiler:
Batman was awesome, probably the best I've read so far, but in general all except JLI have really impressed me. Seeing all three robin versions together from the off was odd, but I suspect DC fans would have stormed the comic offices had they just made Damian and Tim vanish and go back to Dick as Robin, so not too much of an issue. However the story was interesting and has me looking forward to the next one. Oh and I do forget how much I like the Batman villians, I should have been collecting Batman ages ago, his and Joker's relationship as always makes me smile.
Birds of Prey was the weakest of the three for me today, but don't get me wrong, it was still a good read. I'll be honest though, I've mainly got this comic as I am a major Poison Ivy fan, and really want to see how they are going to justify her membership and status as a hero. Black Canary was fun mind, and a character I recognise from the JLA cartoon, so will keeping the sub up for sure.
Catwoman, wow, well I see its getting some flak around the interwebs, but to be honest I don't see the problem. I just found it a witty, and interesting first issue, the end bit was a surprise, but I thought it came off rather well, and this will be one of my definate comics to keep as I try to whittle down the nine I have to around six. (Not sure I'll be able to manage it going on the first issues so far ) Love her as a character, and once again I lament on how poor they translated that over for the 'movie' *shudders* looking forward to the next issue.
I couldn't find BofP at the shop last night! Dammit!
That anti-Catwoman article is bollocks. I won't pretend to be offended by boobies to appease any malcontents, least of all the crowd that only likes "realistic proportions" in comic books.
Andrew Wheeler wrote:This must be what nerds think feminism looks like.
A little autobiographical, I'd say.
Andrew Wheeler wrote:Even Oracle, a popular female hero who has to rely on her brains rather than her athleticism, has been rolled back to a generic previous incarnation, thus bumping two other established characters out of the picture. She’s not wearing hot pants yet, but she has made the DC universe a less diverse and inclusive place.
You ever get the sense that people write blogs just to write blogs? Gail Simone must feel some regret -- she's partially responsible for these slogan-mouthing "sensitive" critics who are now turning the tables on her. I do wish these fethers would actually think about the comics instead of boiling it down to some kind of quota ... oh wait:
Andrew Wheeler wrote:There is room in comics for sexually aggressive female heroes. There is room for under-dressed bad girls, and heaven knows there always will be. [...] But first you need to build a diverse landscape. Even with good books like Wonder Woman and Batwoman, DC isn’t doing that. It only has seven female-led titles among its new 52.
We'll need nineteen more female-led books before it's okay that Catwoman is sexy and has nice boobies.
Also, Mr. Wheeler never once mentioned Jaime Reyes. Porque no? Ah, right: no boobies at stake.
Anyways, back in Marvelland the disjointed Fear Itself is wrapping up. The story probably isn't that bad but I couldn't really say because it's hard to follow. My main problem with it is that the story was all told in mini-series. Now obviously all mega-events are attempts to sell more comics but these has been the worst one of all. Usually, the event is still going on in other titles so you can just collect your usual stuff and be in the know. So for example, previously if I just collected Avengers I would know what's happening to the Avengers in the Civil War and whatnot. With Fear Itself if you collect Avengers you get unimportant side tales of the Avengers for the part and important plot progression stuff happens in something called "Fear Itself: Avengers" which would be a 3 part mini or something. Pretty blatant attempt to make me double up on every title I already collect.
So in summary: worst event ever (insert comic book guy voice).
Final two comics arrived this morning, although I am going to Ipswich on Friday and if the comic shop has them I won't lie, the temptation to get Nightwing and Voodoo #1 will be strong.
So I got Dark Knight and Red Hood.
Spoiler:
Dark Knight - really liked it, seemed to tie in with some of the stuff that happened in Batman #1 which was nice, and in all I liked the narrative in it. Looking forward to seeing how it develops.
Red hood - hit and miss, I liked the characters of Red Hood and Arsenal, not encountered either of them before, however I have been completely thrown by Starfire.
I have no issue with the sexual connections, it seems that is normal for her and always has, but to see Huamnity as 'sights and smells' having no connection to anyone, not even being able to remember who the Teen Titans where. Well that is just bizarre.
A woman who seemed focused on her friends and those she loved in a over the top way, now seems unable, or uninterested in friends.
Going to see where it goes, but oddly this might be the title I drop if that continues for too long, as it just seems totally out of place for her.
Other than that gripe the story and comic was quite good, and I will be continuing it for the time being.
I can't defend the Starfire thing. It creeped me out if I'm honest. The going explanation is that this is just how Tamaraens are. I'm not buying it. As it stands she's somewhere between a robot assassin and a blow-up doll. As much as men love to hate on men (see Andrew Wheeler on Selina Kyle above), I don't think anyone can sincerely say this Starfire is a male fantasy. She's not a very compelling character as-is so my money is on "something's wrong with her and that's part of the arc." Maybe this is just one big event like the cynics have prophesied.
No matter how stupid it is, someone out there is willing to blame it on "male sex fantasies." (Although, in this case, Lobdell does it to himself -- having that kid with the camera was not cute.)
You think there will ever be a news site reporting what the moderators of DakkaDakka don't want you to know?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And some insight into Lobdell?
“Yes, there were a lot of people there, it had become quite the conversation piece. There was a lot of discussion about Kory and her sexuality the day before this issue went to press.”
“There were a handful of staff, mostly other women, who believed the writer was trying to equate being a strong woman with being, frankly, a slut. No one said that the writer was misogynistic, just that perhaps he was writing from a male perspective. It was firmly suggested to him that he could accentuate the character’s past as a sex slave. And that this might be an explanation for her sexuality, that she was acting out in her new life.”
“However, we were told he was adamant that Kory not be portrayed as a victim. The argument was made that if she was acting out sexually because of her past it mind that she mentally never left the prison planet.”
“In the end a compromise was struck and the sentence “I am a woman” [originally placed at the top of the third panel above] was lost.”
I must admit I meant the sexual thing in my post above, as I'm not bothered by the idea of her having relationships.
However what really is the point if she feels nothing for those she is with, the whole feeling is nailed by a post on Bleeding Cool, putting her akin to either she is treating Humanity as a large swathe of sex toys, or she herself is in fact a sex toy for the reader.
Neither makes for an interesting character.
I really hope you are right Manchu, and this is revealled as something is wrong, and some of the old Starfire comes back.
On a side note, what would folks rate as their fave three relaunch issues.
Partially wondering if any are really standing out between the folks here, that I should maybe pick up tomorrow if available.
I don't think I can do a top three. I loved GL1 and thought Red Lanterns was a good read, too, if you like the GL lineup. If I absolutely have to pick, I liked Nightwing the best -- more for where it's going than where it went in issue one. Then again, Dick Grayson is my favorite character ...
... which brings us back to Starfire, who really loved Dick. Er. You see what I mean -- Starfire as utterly head-over-heals-in-love with an nonreciprocating Dick Grayson ... yeah, now that's a fantasy. (As an aside: First, what the hell is a "sexual fantasy" as opposed to a "romantic fantasy"? Second, what makes said fantasy "male"?) Most people would like to be unconditionally loved by a beautiful if alien being like Starfire. The idea of such a dream being reduced to a flat-out, out-of-the-blue offer for sex (which in this case makes a query like "can I use you bathroom?" seem deeply intimate) is just gross.
I feel bad for Starfire. This writing is like rape in the sense that associating the word "sexual" with it seems off, at least for those who don't think "sexual" is a bad and dirty word. Characters like Starfire have established personalities and they exist quite apart from their writers by this point.It feels like Lobdell forced her to, you know? And, yep, that's just gross.
If you walk away from comics, or even just DC comics, over two issues (and, in my view, only one of them is even problematic) then I have to say ... I don't really believe you've ever cared about comics short of, you know, having something to bitch about in your blog. (Obviously, Laura Hudson isn't only a blogoholic but she made the teasy claim, not me.) And if this is getting to you in 2011, what they hell attracted you to comics in the first place? Probably the genderlessness of comicbooks 20 years ago.
But I'll let her talk (about Catwoman 1):
Laura Hudson wrote:That is in fact all we see of her for two pages: shots of her breasts. Most problematically, we are shown her breasts and her body over and over for two pages, but NOT her face. No joke, we get a very clear and detailed shot of her butt in black latex before we ever see her face looks like. Can't you show us the playful or confident look in her eye as she puts on her sexy costume? Because without that it's impossible to connect with the character on any other level than a boner, and I'm afraid I don't have one of those.
That ain't all your missing, ma'am. You are also missing the point of why any of this is noteworthy much less anger-worthy.
Laura Hudson wrote:Like I said, I'm on board with the hot ladies; part of what got me into comics back in the day was being a 12-year-old girl who looked at strong, beautiful characters like Rogue and Jean Grey and Storm and wanted to be like them in large part because they were so sexy and confident and had exciting romances.
Kaaaay, so what's the problem?
Laura Hudson wrote:And while as with all aesthetic opinions your mileage may vary, this does not look sexy to me; it looks like a creepy fanfiction drawing.
So she doesn't like it, personally. And this means that women are universally denigrated by it ... ?
Laura Hudson wrote:I mean literally, why is that last page a full-page splash of Batman actually penetrating Catwoman? [...] They just wanted to see Catwoman and Batman bang on a roof. And that is the whole problem with this false notion of "sexually liberated" female characters: These aren't those women. [...] They read like men's voices coming out of women's faces.
Your criticism of a page with no dialog is that the dialog doesn't sound like a woman's voice. *golf clap*
She must have seen the issue here because she went on to give this helpful example:
Laura Hudson wrote:Or worse, they read like the straight girls who make out with each other at clubs, not because they enjoy making out with women but because they desperately want guys to pay attention to them.
There's so much wrong here. Girls should not want guys' attention? Only gay women have the right (privilege?) to make out with women? A charitable reading of this is "women are motivated by more than the need to titillate me" but that's not what she said. In fact, what she said is a jumble of ideas that reflect her own confused but undoubtedly self-righteous opinions on gender and society. And this response just doesn't work for the Catwoman example. As a wiser head managed to argue:
Shoshana Kessock wrote: Now, I did defend the Catwoman #1 portrayal as in my eyes an all right representation of Catwoman. Why, might you ask, is this different? Because the actions in that comic were completely in line with what I expect from Catwoman. This portrayal of Starfire as empty eye-candy is not in line with the portrayal I've expected of the orange alien princess of old. This, folks, is what I'd classify as objectification at it's worst and being told to check the ratings isn't the point. The point is not for someone to please think of the children. It's for someone to please respect that adults might find this offensive as well.
Thanks, Shoshana, for reminding us that we don't get outraged just to be outraged just because the rest of the internet is outraged just because it's fun to be outraged.
Also agree, the whole quiting after two issues is pretty pathetic. I'm generally happy, I'll give Red Hood another three or four issues to see if there is more to Starfire than what issue one is letting on, but thats the only one I have a doubt over at the moment.
Well, as far as Ms. Hudson goes, sure -- she should trash Red Hood if she hated that comic so much (justifiably so) but walking away from comics which have been her "whole life for 20 years" is ... unbelievable? And superficial, if she actually does it.
One day, MDS, people will be up their asses about porn, I'm sure. Not anti-porn protestors or whatever but actual porn fans. I can hear it now: "There aren't enough midgets -- doesn't this industry value diversity?"
Finally, I get the distinct impression that someone that infuriated by straight girls making out to get guys' attention knows a little bit about getting guys' attention. Like being the only chick at the comic store for 20 years ... I'm not saying that's why she likes comics but the whole tone of her article is what a misogynistic oppressor like myself would call "attention whoring."
And speaking of superficiality and attention-whoring:
Now, however, weren't you the slightest bit perturbed by Dick's seemingly casual acceptance of two police officers being murdered right in front of him?
He did berate himself for it -- I can see that being a huge plot point in previous years but you know they have to get used to it at some point. Not like it, obviously. But like I said, he does take responsibility for it and claim that he shouldn't have taken the risk with their lives.
No Flash #1 were delivered to the comic store I go to. The owner ordered 40, and Diamond delivered none. Their response to him: Oh sorry, nothing we can do about it. He asks if they can send him the 40 he ordered. Their response:You should have ordered them 3 months ago. When he points out he did they tell him that his only option is to apologize to us customers for Diamond's mistake.
I can't believe we've gotten to a point that there is a sole distributor of comics and they have such shoddy service.
I give a huge thumbs up to my comic store owner who has bought Flash #1 comics from other stores (at full cost) and from ebay to make sure his customers get the comic they ordered.
Ya, Diamond has a full blown monopoly and it's not good. Mistakes like above are pretty common at my store but as far as Diamond is concerned it's "whatcha gonna do about it?"
Firestorm was.. alright. Nice art but it did feel a little rushed.
..In fact with several of the issues I think it might well have been better if the issues had been oversized and longer.
Aquaman was a genuine delight, gorgeous to look at, well written and actually funny in parts --" fish and chips" -- exactly what this whole reboot thing should be like.
Just curious as to why the outrage annoys you guys so much? These folks don't like the direction the comic is going or aren't enjoying it. Why is it pathetic to voice that opinion or stop buying the books?
I thought about getting back into DC with the reboot, but I can't muster any enthusiasm for it.
If you had to pick a comic from the reboot for a fan of Chuck Dixon's Batman/Robin/Nightwing runs and a anti-Morrissonite, what one would you recommend?
For me, because it seems like 'PC' outrage, we're outraged because we are supposed to be? However none of them are actually certain on what they are outraged about, just broad statements on how its all bad for everyone.
This is hardly new ground, Catwoman and Batman, like we haven't seen two superheroes getting it on hundreds of times before over the past sixty years. Well maybe a little more graphic than other comics, but it is Teen+ so you know it can go further than the average comic before you open it to page one.
Starfire has more of a reason to have criticism as it goes against the character as known. That for me is a bigger crime than a bit of nudity or crass content. Reboot or no, I am not so keen on massive changes to characters personalties to the point they may as well be a different character.
Other than that mind, I genrally found the outrage amusing.
reds8n wrote: Aquaman was a genuine delight, gorgeous to look at, well written and actually funny in parts --" fish and chips" -- exactly what this whole reboot thing should be like.
I couldn't find a copy of Aquaman, sadly. I'm really interested to see how it goes with this title, since no one has yet been able to do him sustainably well.
Da Boss wrote:Just curious as to why the outrage annoys you guys so much?
The "outrage" annoys me insofar as it seems hollow and obligatory whereas the issues are important, maybe even urgent. Just to give the tip of a very treacherous iceberg, women seem to be finding their place in the world of comics and video-games and other "boy culture" genres by being critics rather than enthusiasts. They're here to tell us why we're wrong, why we've been wrong forever, why if we don't start doing it right (as far as they're concerned), well, they're going to get fed up and walk out. Part of me wants to say "don't let the door hit your ass on the way out." Why bother to spend all this effort on a genre that one finds derogatory? Why does what I like also have to be what you like in order for it to be valuable or, at the very least, not tasteless pornography? The mode du jour of spreading politically correct enlightenment is busting into the comic shop or the game shop or the hobby shop and screaming that everything there needs to stop and be completely revamped to suit the needs of the lady who just got there. I know people like Ms. Hudson are saying "listen, I've been into comics for 20 years" and I've heard women say similar things about video games. But, I have to say in response, "then how come I never met you? Because I've been here the whole time." It's a strange mix of tyranny and presumptuousness that doesn't seem convincing to me as grounds to criticize. I don't need to draw on a narrative of the ages-long oppression of women in comic book drawings to look at Starfire in Red Hood and the Outlaws and say "this is bad." In other words, Catwoman and everybody else doesn't have to be bad just because Starfire is. And when men start berating themselves and especially other men to join in this thoughtless power trip -- well, it's no more offensive than when women do it but also no less.
DaBoss wrote:These folks don't like the direction the comic is going or aren't enjoying it. Why is it pathetic to voice that opinion or stop buying the books?
Wait, let's be clear. It's not pathetic to simply "give voice" to one's opinions no matter how unfounded they are. That's a weasly kind of analysis of what I was saying, no offense intended. But, first, we're not just talking about someone expressing their own personal preferences. We're talking about someone saying more than "I don't like X" -- we're talking about people saying "you shouldn't like X, either, and if you do you're a chauvinist, etc, etc." And that's not necessarily pathetic but it is a load of gak. To get to what's pathetic: if you say you've loved comics and lived comics for twenty years and then one publisher out of dozens puts a couple (literally two) issues of two titles out and you say "feth this, comics are not worth it" -- well, that's pathetic. Twenty years for two issues? Sure, it's been more than two issues over these twenty years -- but why now, all of the sudden? How are these the straws the broke the camel's back. And, of course, they're not; this isn't going to be the end of Ms. Hudson's involvement with comics. She's being melodramatic, just like Patton Oswalt. In that statement, that absurd ultimatum, she's being a fussy little brat -- and frankly I don't give a feth what some fussy little brat wants my comic books to be like.
To put a fine point on it, I don't care whether Grant Morrison is a woman or a man -- I just care that he writes some excellent books and knows and loves comics sincerely. If there was a woman like that -- oh, and there are a few of them -- I'd buy her books and soak them up with the same reverence I do Morrison or Winick or Snyder. And, like I just said, this isn't hypothetical: I've been positively gushing over Gail Simone's Batgirl. But so what, cries the blogosphere? Bloggers are of course powered by outrage and scandal. If there's no gossip, if everything is hunkey dorey, there are no blogs. So Gail Simone gets criticized for taking Barbara out of the chair ("DC doesn't value diversity" the parrots all squawk) and no one says anything interesting about women in comics in their reviews. A week later, the world is stunned that Selina Kyle has nice titties and wants to feth Batman -- WON't SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN! Then Lobdell gives them some real ammo with his gakky take on Starfire. It sickens me that the the real issues here, including portraying women as people rather than sex toys in comics, are buried. That's why I quoted Ms. Kessock (who is not "somebody" in comics, like Ms. Hudson is), as well -- she gets to the real issue. She doesn't claim to have made comic books her whole life for 20 years. So why does she see it so much more clearly? I really wish that Ms. Kessock had the clout of Ms. Hudson.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mr. Morrison himself has some words to the effect of what I love about comics:
Grant Morrison wrote:So you know kind of that optimism that comics bring is a kind of form of outrage now and it quite appeals to me because of that, it's so against the prevailing trends to say that “hey maybe everything's okay”, people just lose their gak if you try to tell them that maybe we're part of larger scale processes that are working themselves out that we barely have any comprehension of. But you know, you can't say that.
So, look, this is my outrage -- the outrage of a hope amid the hopeless. And then you;ve got this other outrage -- like how we're still all going to Hell, that comics do nothing but demean everyone -- seducing the youth even to this day, just a Wertham said. That's what Mr. Wheeler and Ms. Hudson sound like to me: more doom and gloom, more CNN and FoxNews, the continued ravages of the soul-crushing. And, you know what, Lobdell's Starfire is like that, too. Keep that gak away from my comic books. I don't care what lofty ideal you think you're fighting for, ye spirit-grinders and prophets of oppression. There's nothing in Catwoman 1 that makes me think yesterday was any better than today or that tomorrow will be far worse. I only get that from the blogs.
MDS: I guess so, I'm just not seeing how this "outrage" is that different to any past outrage.
Bravo Manchu, that was a masterful response. Your posts can sometimes be so well put together that they're a wee bit intimidating to respond to, but respond I shall!
First, let me say that your reason for disliking all the chauvinist chatter, is to me, pretty understandable now that you've elaborated. I don't have much of a problem with that.
I disagree with some of what I perceive your sentiment to be, especially the "how come I never met you?" bit. I mean, you've never met me, either. I know plenty of girls into comics who don't go on rants about this stuff, and I know some guys who do. Gender doesn't seem important in the discussion to me. I guess they bring it on themselves by making their gender an issue.
On the other end, however, I dislike people who try to say that "comics" are about anything in particular. Because comics are just storys told in the visual medium, they can be about anything.
One of the main reasons I don't like Morrison is because to me, he's hammering me with his narrow vision of continuity and what "comics" are about, to the point that (to me) the adventure, the simplicity of the story, and the underlying character is obscured.
Morrison is the reason I gave up on DC, I guess it's cool that lots of people like him, but for me he was the straw that broke mah back.
Anyhow, bit of a ramble. Thanks for the reply, it was a good read, and thought provoking. Can't ask for more.
Da Boss wrote:Your posts can sometimes be so well put together that they're a wee bit intimidating to respond to, but respond I shall!
I realize that my rants can be wild-eyed and OTT-to-arrogant but it's not even intended as passionate, just an attempt to be clear. Thanks for giving me a chance by responding rather than writing it off as just-more-internet-ravings.
Da Boss wrote:I disagree with some of what I perceive your sentiment to be, especially the "how come I never met you?" bit. I mean, you've never met me, either. I know plenty of girls into comics who don't go on rants about this stuff, and I know some guys who do.
I guess what I meant was I have been into comics, gaming, etc, as long as I can remember and I do not remember girls ever caring about any of it. Until about 2000 or so, I literally never met a single girl my own age (corresponding to my age over those years) who cared about Star Wars or Spiderman or Zelda. I guess "nerd-cred" wasn't a commodity back then, much less the hollow consumable it has become today.
Da Boss wrote:Gender doesn't seem important in the discussion to me. I guess they bring it on themselves by making their gender an issue.
That's it exactly, put succinctly and without sounding crazy or angry o confused (like me). That's top shelf, sir.
I can't agree about Morrison. I mean, he's not my own personal Jesus Christ or anything but his vision is very compelling because of its sincerity. Ask Grant Morrison about this sort of stuff and he seems a bit baffled. I have to admit, that's how I feel -- plus usurped and so irritated. I think he's got a vision for where we've been but I'm not saying he's going to lead us all into the future, at least not all by himself. I don't think that's his project, either. Just remember that he's prominent so ... you know, he will be a target. Comic fandom is bitchy that way. (Submit yourself to bleedingcool for a month or so.)
@Alpharius: Can't say I'm going to shed too many tears over that. (Not that it makes the New 52 world any clearer just by saying so, Mr. DiDio!)
Fandom as a whole is bitchy that way- I used to run Sci Fi cons, and I gave it up for a reason Don't want to derail the thread with my usual Morrison whinge, but my issue with him is he writes comics for comics fans, and I don't think that's a good idea for the mainstream titles. Give him Animal Man, let him work his weirdo magic on that sort of stuff. Hell, give him Green Lantern Corps, or even Justice League, sure. But Batman and Superman should be recognisable and accessible for the random kid who picks up a comic book after playing arkham asylum or watching Dark Knight. That's my feeling, and I guess I see Morrison as symptomatic of a problem with the american comics industry as a whole in that there aren't many guys looking past the traditional comics fandom except in fairly "let's make sure we have some diversity in there!" kinda ways.
Oh, and your rants aren't OTT, just thought provoking.
Jumping in out of left field: who's your idea of a mainstream
audience comic book writer? The industry seems to write for its
own fans most of the time. One of the most accessible comics
I've picked up was that private school thriller Morning Glories,
and I think that would only appeal to someone if you told them
that it was like the show LOST (as it was sold to me)
Enjoying the other less publicized (amongst comic fans anyway) universe reboot. Ultimate Spider-Man #1 was interesting. New guy has a larger family support system which will probably be more interesting than good old Aunt May.
@Malfred Doesn't all serialized fiction need to balance being accessible to new followers with developing the story in an insular way? Many TV shows have the same problem.
@Malfred Doesn't all serialized fiction need to balance being accessible to new followers with developing the story in an insular way? Many TV shows have the same problem.
Right.
For example, I gave up on endless continuity a long time ago. While the 52
relaunch might have been a good time to start reading some of the books
again, I felt as if the relaunch was still for the hardcore fans of each series
and I really couldn't justify trying out every book on the rack, so I stick to
storylines that will provide closure.
I think DC characters are justifiably "endless" as a Pantheon, whereas Marvel characters struggle with that. From the beginning of Marvel's success, their characters were interesting as realistic people in realistic (emotional) circumstances. But how long can Aunt May go having heart attack after heart attack? How many monolithic anti-mutant plots within the U.S. government will the X-Men root out? Yeah, I know there are all kinds of twists on the fundamental relationships involved but I can understand a need for closure -- kind of like how daytime soaps must eventually drive people mad. But Superman is hope and Batman is vengeance. They're like eternal platonic forms. In the Return of Bruce Wayne arc, Batman relfects on his super friends and how he isn't like them -- "everything they touch turns to myth." Well, Batman was at that moment in the midst of traveling through thousands of years of time -- obviously he's a bit more like his pals than he thinks.
Currently, I might think that Kirkman writes reasonably accessible (in that they are reasonably simple) stories, however he has the luxury of having a "clean" universe to write in.
Manchu wrote:I think DC characters are justifiably "endless" as a Pantheon, whereas Marvel characters struggle with that. From the beginning of Marvel's success, their characters were interesting as realistic people in realistic (emotional) circumstances. But how long can Aunt May go having heart attack after heart attack? How many monolithic anti-mutant plots within the U.S. government will the X-Men root out? Yeah, I know there are all kinds of twists on the fundamental relationships involved but I can understand a need for closure -- kind of like how daytime soaps must eventually drive people mad. But Superman is hope and Batman is vengeance. They're like eternal platonic forms. In the Return of Bruce Wayne arc, Batman relfects on his super friends and how he isn't like them -- "everything they touch turns to myth." Well, Batman was at that moment in the midst of traveling through thousands of years of time -- obviously he's a bit more like his pals than he thinks.
EXTREMELY well said and perhaps one of the best comparisons between Marvel and DC that I've ever read - well done Manchu!
Manchu wrote:I think DC characters are justifiably "endless" as a Pantheon, whereas Marvel characters struggle with that. From the beginning of Marvel's success, their characters were interesting as realistic people in realistic (emotional) circumstances. But how long can Aunt May go having heart attack after heart attack? How many monolithic anti-mutant plots within the U.S. government will the X-Men root out? Yeah, I know there are all kinds of twists on the fundamental relationships involved but I can understand a need for closure -- kind of like how daytime soaps must eventually drive people mad. But Superman is hope and Batman is vengeance. They're like eternal platonic forms. In the Return of Bruce Wayne arc, Batman relfects on his super friends and how he isn't like them -- "everything they touch turns to myth." Well, Batman was at that moment in the midst of traveling through thousands of years of time -- obviously he's a bit more like his pals than he thinks.
EXTREMELY well said and perhaps one of the best comparisons between Marvel and DC that I've ever read - well done Manchu!
I'd agree with that too. That's why I prefer Marvel. Superman is a symbol not a character. He works best in limited stories like Red Son and Kingdom Come. Back in the day you'd get 3-4 stories per DC comic. Marvel is the one that changed that and had actual characters. Superman just doesn't work that way as an actual person imo.
Batman is cool, but I don't like Batman in Space! He's supposed to be a street level vigilante. Apparently he doesn't care for being in space either.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Da Boss wrote:Currently, I might think that Kirkman writes reasonably accessible (in that they are reasonably simple) stories, however he has the luxury of having a "clean" universe to write in.
Yep. But even the invincibleverse (or whatever) is getting laden down with insular continuity. I don't think that's a bad thing however. The best stories have change in them and that is the only way to move the story forward.
I have some good news and I have some bad news. Let's start with just the news first, without any value judgments: DC and cartoon Network will air a new Batman cartoon in 2013, titled Beware the Batman. Now for the bad news: It looks like this.
And when I say "this" I mean "really gakky Bruce Timm fan art." I mean, trying to put Timm's designs in CG is bad enough -- everything looks like Superman 64, as the Green Lantern cartoon proves -- but Batman is missing the top half of his fething skull. For the life of me, I can't imagine how anyone in the cartoon industry would look at this picture and say "good enough."
And sadly, that's only part of the problem. Because you see the people besides Batman in the pic? Well, up top are Professor Pyg and Mr. Toad, two recent villains from Grant Morrison's Batman comics who were really creepy but will undoubtedly be turned into '60s Bat-villains for the cartoon. But that's not the problem. The problem is that instead of Robin, Batman will be fighting crime with Katana (on the left) and his butler Alfred... who's on the right.
Shooting the guns.
Yes, Alfred has fething guns in this Batman cartoon, and he uses 'em as part of Batman's fight against crime. So Beware the Batman stars Batman, some random Japanese girl with a sword, and a gun-toting Alfred, just like kids have been reading about and enjoying for NEVER. THEY HAVE NEVER ONCE HEARD ABOUT THIS COMBINATION OF CHARACTERS, SO THERE CAN BE NO INNATE DESIRE TO SEE THEM TOGETHER. AND ANYONE WHO KNOWS THE TINIEST BIT ABOUT BATMAN -- WHO'S READ A BATMAN COMIC, WATCHED AN EPISODE OF BRAVE AND THE BOLD OR ANY OTHER BATMAN CARTOON, WATCHED THE INCREDIBLY POPULAR MOVIES, OR HAD AN OLDER SIBLING OR FRIEND WHO HAS DONE ONE OF THOSE THINGS AND WOULD TELL THEM ABOUT THE PROBLEM WITH ALFRED SHOOTING fething GUNS -- WOULD KNOW WHAT A TOTAL BETRAYAL OF THE CHARACTER THIS TRAVESTY fething IS.
I honestly don't know how gak like this can happen. I mean, maybe Katana, maybe some exec said let's try it with a female Robin and see if that gets us some female viewers, but gun-toting Alfred is so wrong on every fething level I can't possibly understand how it gets greenlit. I mean, these people have made the previous Batman cartoons. They're currently making Young Justice. Did they stick all the people with a lick of sense on YJ, and put all the idiots on Beware the Batman? Did some VP at Warner Bros insist that Warner Animation give his comics ignorant, drug addict of a son a job or something? Because this gak beggars all reason.
I did say I had good news as well; apparently DC is also working on a Doom Patrol cartoon, although I assume Robot Man will be human and Negative Man will be a cheery robot or something. More importantly, Lauren Faust -- yes, the creator of My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic -- will be doing some shorts starring Wonder Girl, Supergirl and Batgirl titled Super Best Friends Forever. Lauren Faust doing DC superheroines is reason to be insanely excited. But honestly, I don't know that it comes close to making up for the rest of this fething nonsense.
... but..but... but why is Alfred shooting people..? This isn't WW II.. is it ?
Guessing Katana might be based upon the character from The Outsiders...? ish.
Still, Doom Patrol cartoon Bring it on.
..guessing that one won't be based upon Morrison or Pollacks runs though.
Lot of anger from one picture there ... but, yeah, Alfred and his 1911s ... One of the concepts that's so vivid from the Under The Hood story arc is Jason dual-wielding semi-autos -- and, of course, there's a reason that the image stands out. The folks at Warner Premier know this. Not only did they make Under the Red Hood but they also devoted some subplot to Batman's hatred of firearms in Gotham Knights. I think this promotional piece doesn't necessarily speak of what the series will be like. Early art can be a little off. As for the stylization, I'm not too worried. The accuracy of first impressions is a self-justifiying myth.
This show sounds really weird. I've already talked about my hate for Professor Pyg and I'm not a big fan of Katana either.
The whole Alfred angle is actually what worries me the least. As far as I know Alfred has a past with British special forces and he was pretty awesome in The Batman.
Not a big fan of the art style though and I'd rather seen another season of Brave and the Bold than this.
No doubt. I'm just a big Azrael fan. The thing to remember is that it's all about "sooner or later."
Automatically Appended Next Post: More from Scott Lobdell:
I love that Kori brings an alternative world view to everything. Jason and Roy have very strong -- and very earthly -- ideas of what is right and wrong, but Kori doesn't view life through the prism of someone who was born here. As someone who has gone through Hell and come out a better person for the experience, she looks askance at Jason and Roy who have both -- let's be honest -- made some really bad life choices. There is no other character in comics like Princess Koriand'r. [...] This is a story about three adults who are spending a lot of time together so it is likely they are probably going to be taking advantage of all the fun things adults can choose to do together. [...] In the second issue, we see Roy, who, again, can't help talking about whatever he's thinking, trying to put a label on his encounter with Kori -- but that is him trying to define her, and she's not interested in anyone putting her in a box. She spent the early part of her life in captivity; she's not going to let other people decide who or what she can be going forward.
But Mr. Lobdell refused to speak on the point of the controversy. It could look like Mr. Lobdell made a bad decision as a professional writer that happened to touch on something incendiary but he's not saying as much. It reminds me of Michael Richards shouting the "n-word" over and over during a stand-up routine. Mr. Richards said that was a case of making a bad decision as a professional comic. What's less funny than a bad joke, after all? Many of the onlookers (that's you and me, folks) figured -- responding to the Freudian-esque doctrines of "political correctness" taught to us from grade school on -- that this wasn't just a poor decision but rather indicative of real, deep-seated prejudices. Mr. Richards had unmasked himself as a racist. That was the take home and it was seemingly goodbye forever.
Now, similarly, Mr. Lobdell -- according to a lot of the onlookers -- has unmasked himself as a chauvinist or (if there is a meaningful difference in the context of internet vitriol) a misogynist. Keeping Michael Richards in mind, you can see why Mr. Lobdell says the topic is "taking up all the air in the room." This is a successful guy, we're talking about here; successful enough, in fact that he's piloting three books in this reboot. If "fans" like Ms. Hudson have their way, he'll go the way of Kramer: from hero to zero. But go back to the book after reading all the hullaboo.
To me, Lobdell's Starfire is still creepy and gross. It was a very bad decision -- but it was a creative decision. It wasn't an ideological decision and I don't think it stands for anything but a writer's lapse in professional judgment. Reading Mr. Lobdell's responses in the quoted text above, however, it seems that the all-or-nothing stakes we're raising when it comes to women-in-comics issues really have taken up all the air in the room. And when there's no air, we can't breath much less talk. At least not meaningfully.
In what could be a fight for his livelihood, Lobdell is understandably defensive. Yeah, he says "hold the questions" but he's also giving us an explanation, a justification. Starfire's not going to be put in a box and defined by her male compatriots. She's having sex with them to elude their control. Remember what that nerd Andrew Wheeler said about Catwoman: "This must be what nerds think feminism looks like." Well, obviously, even nerds aren't buying it when it comes to Starfire. Yes, Mr. Lobdell, you're saying all the right things about your book but how come when I read the book it doesn't make me think about anything you just said?
With so much anger and so many threats so nonchalantly leveled (this is a comic book that could make someone who had devoted her entire life to comics for two decades drop the whole thing, remember?) and the stake so, so high -- Lobdell is digging in. And, you know what that means: we're going to get more of that creepy, gross Starfire. Maybe he'll tone her down subtly, over time but I don't know that he can just say "hey, yeah, that was an error, let's figure out something else" at this point. Like his take on Starfire, Mr. Lobdell is telling us he won't let us put him in a box even if his own current box is gak.
.. especially the reveal on the last page. nice too see more elements of the mythos being deftly, and quickly, woven into the story.
And the bit with the military trying to damage his cape did give me a chuckle or two.
Picked up a reprint of Swamp Thing #1 and the 2nd issue of that, and enjoyed them enough to add it to my pull list. Animal Man 2 was cool as well, quite disturbing... and it's not often you can say that about hippos.
Picked up #1 of the Huntress mini as well, had a bit of a soft spot for the original original character and seeing as this ties in with a forthcoming book about a certain team on a certain parallel earth....
Manchu wrote:I often think about the various Robins v. one another and Bruce Wayne. And then I realize that comics don't need to be constrained by literalism.
Well, you know, back in 1940 Dick Grayson was nine years old. That makes him 80 in "real time." That means Bruce is at least 100. Clearly, this isn't the case. Bruce Wayne is shown to be a man in his early 40s at the very oldest and Dick is probably late twenties or early 30s. At the same time, Bruce remembers (via flashback) the various Robins being kids. And in his flashbacks, he himself doesn't look all that much younger. Lookking forward, Damian is currently ten. How long will he be a ten-year old Robin? It's already been five years. So all of these things might make you start to wonder "how the hell does this work"? But it doesn't need to work via real-time in order for the characters to work as characters with interesting relationships, informed (and burdened) by the baggage those relationships have created.
If you want a Real Time comic, Judge Dredd has been good about that.
In real life, we experience the passage of time in a defined way. When we tell stories, we don't necessarily have to use that same definition of the passage of time. In some cases, like Judge Dredd, we decide to use that same definition -- and this is an example of literalism. It's not the same thing as realism, which is quite a bit more loose and relative. For example, Batman is quite a realistic superhero with his gadgets and lack of superpowers. But he's quite far from a literal superhero -- after all, we know that a real person could not actually swing between buildings like that without ripping off their arms (to just use a single example). In Batman comic books, time can be said to pass "realitsically" -- Dick Grayson does grow up, after all, and Bruce Wayne remains older than him by an indeterminate but apparently reasonable amount. But time in the Batbooks is not literal -- it can speed up, slow down, go backwards, jump ahead, etc, etc. I'm skeptical of the need for and ability to create a timeline like the one in the link you posted.
Why not though? He makes a pretty strong case for it. I can't remember if it was you or someone else but once someone posted a good column realted to D&D on why in a world were wizards shoot fireballs from their fingertips it's still important to take into acount where their food comes from.
Isn't a sense of time and/or a timeline a central component of storytelling?
Somewhere in the links to the link I posted he talks about Reed Richards. Do you know Reed Richards is a WWII veteran? Or at least he was. I didn't. That's where he became the Reed Richards "nerd" was forced to become a leader.
In Full: "Mr Fantastic was defined as an introvert scientist who is also a heroic leader of men. Surely that is a contradiction - an introvert extrovert? How did it happen? The early stories explained: it was because of the draft. Introvert Reed Richards was forced into the army, and that's where he became a hero. That's why he was then able to lead the Fantastic Four. In America, the draft means either WWII or Vietnam at the latest, which fixes the possible dates at which Mr Fantastic's career could begin. But the new Reed Richards was never drafted. New writers realize that an introvert scientist would not be a heroic and inspirational leader, he would not be a rounded human being. In stories like the Illuminati he was presented as a jerk: one prominent writer called him "an ***hole". The original Mr Fantastic has been destroyed by Marvel Time."
That wasn't me who posted that article -- I'm not the guy who insists there be bathrooms in dungeons!
Isn't a sense of time and/or a timeline a central component of storytelling?
Yes indeed! Well, sort of -- plot is a narrative sequence. But time doesn't even have to be realistic much less literal in order for it to effectively frame a plot.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:You don't really need a bathroom in a dungeon...
Well, in a literal world, your heroes do need to go to the bathroom. And they may have to take a gak when they're in full plate fighting a beholder. If that's how you want to play D&D, count me out! Same thing applies to comics. I don't need Batman pissing himself because of pressure and heat and whatever else, Kevin Smith. (Yeah, I'm never getting over that.)
Well ya, that's a whole other thing. We have digressed
Back to timeless time: I guess I'll just respond with his counterpoints. Besides the Reed Richards thing:
Marvel Time destroys repeat sales
Marvel sells reprints of back issues. However, Marvel Time undermines and devalues the best stories. As Jerome Thomas wrote, ""I wonder how 'One More Day' impacted the sales of the many popular married Spider-Man stories that are still available in reprint? Stories like 'Kraven's Last Hunt' are now 'wrong.' ...
One of the most touching issues of Amazing Spider-Man ever written was the Death of Aunt May issue. Marvel proceeded to crap all over that story by revealing that it was a really a genetically modified actress hired by the green goblin to blablabla and the real Aunt May was alive and well. Had Marvel not chickened out and kept Aunt May dead like they should have done, I think that a Death of Aunt May trade paperback could have been a nice little seller for decades to come."
Marvel will of course reply that old comics don't sell so well.. except for the 1960s stuff. And why does that sell? Because of a feedback loop. Readers constantly hear about those stories, so they have to buy them. Imagine if every great story was canon, and remained so. Everything would be connected. (And because death would be permanent, the back story would never become too complicated.) Over the years a reader would become aware of more and more connections between new and old stories, until every major story became a "must have" just like the 1960s stuff.
Connections between comics form a positive feedback loop for sales. Marvel Time destroys those connections.
Brand New Day was such a whallop of Marvel Time. I think Peter may have actually gone from 40 years of age to 25. Brand New Day made Anung un Rama cry.
There's something to be said for an important moment that a superhero only goes through once. There is a reason, for example, that we all remember Gwen Stacy's name and none of the girls who lived, except MJ. On the other hand, phrases like "one of the most touching issues of Amazing Spider-Man ever written was the Death of Aunt May issue" make me think of a kind of fanboy elitism. What about the kids who are too young to have read that issue and been affected by it? Do they just lose out? Ah well. And what might have been touching about that issue to readers in 1995 may not actually be touching to readers today. Is it because readers today aren't "real comic book fans" and "don't know what's good from what's bad"? Hmm, that kind of response makes me think of Comic Books Guy from the Simpsons.
I'll give you an example: as a kid, Knightfall was a huge story for me and Jean-Paul Valley became one of my favorite characters. If you weren't a ten year old reading Knightfall, Jean-Paul might not have made an impression on you. The idea that anyone who Bruce Wayne would choose to be Batman could start really hurting and even killing the bad guys was unthinkable. The way that Jean-Paul was losing touch with reality and not really capable of dealing with the pressures that Bruce must have been facing all along was fascinating. Of course, all of that is "so done" here in 2011. Comic readers are demanding heroes who routinely maim if not kill the bad guys. It was very touching to me back in 1994 but people wouldn't go for it these days.
It's not because they're not real comics fans. It's also not because they are incapable of experiencing the same shock and fascination that I did upon encountering these aspects of the Batman mythos. Readers in this past decade experienced something similar in the Under the Red Hood storyline. If comic book time was literalized, if the dead stayed dead -- well, think of that: no Red Hood because no Jason Todd. Death in the Family would be something that only people of a very certain, fleeting moment could really experience. I prefer comics the way they are, for populist reasons among others.
Fanboy elitism? No, they'd just be important parts in the story. I'm glad you brought up Gwen Stacy because it's one of the most important events in Peter Parker's life but I can't even tell you if that actually happened anymore. There's nothing stopping anyone comic fan or not from reading that story....except there is: Brand New Day. Try explaining that to someone. The death of Aunt May is would be one of the most touching stories in Spider-Man because it's something we can all relate to regardless of whether you started reading comics in 1980 or 2008...except that she came back to life. Once again, try explaining that. When something crazy happens in The Fellowship of the Ring those who refer to it don't get called fanboys because they read Return of the King.
Similarly, when Batman's back was broken and he was replaced by a caped crusader with a much harder edge it was another historic moment. Those who know their comic history know it was a sign of the times. Darker more violent Spawn-like heroes were all the rage. A major life event for Batman but did that happen now? Seems like a shame to throw that all away.
Should the events that happen in comics matter?
If it's just the characters continued existence that's paramount, honestly why do we read them? Why do we care what happens to them?
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Marvel sells reprints of back issues. However, Marvel Time undermines and devalues the best stories. As Jerome Thomas wrote, ""I wonder how 'One More Day' impacted the sales of the many popular married Spider-Man stories that are still available in reprint? Stories like 'Kraven's Last Hunt' are now 'wrong.' ...
One of the most touching issues of Amazing Spider-Man ever written was the Death of Aunt May issue. Marvel proceeded to crap all over that story by revealing that it was a really a genetically modified actress hired by the green goblin to blablabla and the real Aunt May was alive and well. Had Marvel not chickened out and kept Aunt May dead like they should have done, I think that a Death of Aunt May trade paperback could have been a nice little seller for decades to come."
I get what you're saying with this, but I really enjoyed the whole "Aunt May dicovers Peter's secret identity"-arc and what followed during JMS' run on Spider-Man. It gave their little familiy a new dynamic and made for some great scenes.
Of course, it was all ruined by...
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Brand New Day made Anung un Rama cry.
Yes. Yes it does. Go die in a fire, Quesada.
It's an interesting point with the changes made in Comic contiuity. I think I enjoyed most of the "natural" changes (read: everything except OMD) Dick becoming Batman, Spidey
s new suit and being part of the Avengers. And way I back I remember that I did prefer Ben Reilly over Peter Parker as Spider-Man.
Same thing goes for USM. I quite enjoyed the new set-up after Ultimatum with all those teenage super heroes living with Aunt May. Just in the last TPB I read S.H.I.E.L.D. decided that Peter needed "Superhero training" which sounds like a great set-up for team-ups with some of the bigger heroes. And there was a nice scene with Jonah and Peter talking about his secred identy. Also really something I would like to see continued. However, it was a book called Death of Spider-Man: Prolouge I knew it was coming, but does it have to happen when I just started enjoying it again?
I was about to say: you know what happens during his superhero training? It doesn't go well. The Ultimateverse is the realtime Marvel universe now. In many ways I prefer it because they play for keeps there.
As for the "normal" universe was that even the first time Aunt May discovered Spidey's identity? That's just another one of those things that doesn't matter because it usually gets retconned. Currently she does not know again but is leaving his life anyway. She's moving to Boston. Not a bad idea. As I've said before New York City gets destroyed every 28 minutes in the Marvel U. I don't why anyone lives there let alone millions of people.
I've heard a lot good about demon knights, I might actually pick that up. Haven't picked up any of the relaunch titles as I'm waiting to see how good they are... might try digital of demon knights.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: I was about to say: you know what happens during his superhero training? It doesn't go well. The Ultimateverse is the realtime Marvel universe now. In many ways I prefer it because they play for keeps there.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:As for the "normal" universe was that even the first time Aunt May discovered Spidey's identity? That's just another one of those things that doesn't matter because it usually gets retconned.
Well, she remembered it until OMD, when EVERYBODY forgot Peter is Spider-Man. Even Norman Osborn, who's entire relationship with Peter is based on the fact they they know each other's secret identities.
Just finished a Batman story from before the reboot. I can NOT believe that the friggin' father of Rhas al Ghul is actually a character. Why do we need him?
Also reading Deadpool Corps. I admire Rob Liefelds ability to avoid drawing feet on almost every occasion.
Liefeld is drawing Deadpool Corps- At least the story I read last. Has to be issue 5-10, if I'm not mistaken.
And yes, I've read Deadpool Classics #2, is was fantastic. Deadpool is a much more interesting character then he is these days, without losing his humor. Classics #3 is in my amazon shopping cart and just waiting to be ordered.
Why is Liefeld working now? He's penciling another book called Infinite and I think he has another one too. He's back and he's busier than ever!
Let me know when Deadpool gets back to his non-scizophrenic non-4th wall breaking roots.
Liefeld is penceling Hawk and Dove in the new 52. And you probably get most Deadpool stories before me. I'll have to order them from the UK or wait for the translation.
Have you read the Deadpool Marvel Max story and/or Deadpool: Pulp?
Actually, Deadpool went serious there for a while, just a couple months ago. He was suicidal, not talking to his caption boxes and contained within 3 walls. Then at the end of the arc...BWA HA! I'm back baby! What do you think white box? you yellow box?
So my next wave of comics have come through, still waiting for Dark Knight and Voodoo, but the rest have arrived. Still quite impressed, not sure there are any I would stop getting as of right now.
Spoiler:
Batwoman #2 - This is fast becoming my fave title, after quickly adjusting to the art style I am quickly becoming a huge fan of Kate Kane and her way of looking at things. Having Batman pop up a couple of times has worked quite nicely and I am really enjoying the tutor relationship she has with her cousin, Flamebird. Also where that might lead, (hoping for a female dynamic duo myself.) Story is pretty good as well, liking the starting villian/ghost thing, and the fact a large organisation is looking to unmask her.
Nightwing #2 - Got to thank Manchu for giving me enough interest to pick up Nightwing #1 last month, now two is here and I am liking where they seem to be taking him. If I am reading it right it looks like Nightwing is about to go out on the road, which should throw many interesting possabilities up for plots and stories to come. Eitherway, never seen a lot of Dick Grayson (other than the movies) before as a character, and I'm starting to like him.
Batman #2 - Another good issue, wasn't expecting much less mind, of all the DC characters he's always been either number one or number two, depending on what show is on, in fact he probably is in my top five all time heroes, even though up until DCNU I was a Marvel only guy comic wise. Seems to be setting up a nice set of baddies for the time being and they seem quite interesting, a probable threat, also any villians Batman is insisting don't exist, and seems annoyed with in general as a faction catches my interest. I'll be honest and say I can't wait to see him face off against his first classic Batman villian, but they seem to be a good opener.
Batgirl #2 - Mirror is a great starting Villian, really like the idea of his twisted ethos, and also having Batgirl as a target. I really like the story style and the comic art and the conflicting emotions she's feeling reagarding the 'mircale' of regaining her ability to walk after the Killing Joke. Of course from what I can tell, some DC fans are less enamoured with this change, but as someone who missed 90% of Oracle, other than its occasional appearance in a cartoon, its not a big issue for me. In general the comic is nicely plodding away and looking forward to the next one, certainly in my top five at the moment.
Catwoman #2 - Current fave title, love the whole persona they have for her in the first two books, although I was a huge fan of her in Batman Returns, and this seems to resonate nicely for me, really eager to see who they develop with this storyline, and its seems the last panel of issue two, has introduced her first real villian opponent, even if he seems to look like a lower tier villian. The dialogue and connections they are putting between Catwoman/Selina and Batman/Bruce are really fun, certainly helped by its teen + rating, can't wait for issue three.
Birds of Prey #2 - I mainly got this comic, just because I want to see how they are going to pull Poison Ivy being in a 'good' team, and so far she's not arrived, well she does right at the end, but she's not really been in a full comic yet. However I am quite happy with Black Canary and Starling, and really liked the arrival of Katana this issue. I'd say this comic to me has a lot of potential, and I am eager to see where it goes. Being a fan of teams in general, any sort of play off multiple characters is likely to capture my attention, and this looks like it will be doing just that. A solid second issue for me.
Suicide Squad #2 - I'm enjoying it, but its fast becoming obvious that a lot of these characters they are introducing aren't going to last long, and I'm not sure (well other than Harley) that the main three as noted pre to the launch of issue one, are my fave characters. My hope is that El Diablo will spur somekind of anti-hero plot line to devolp, and see some of them break away and try and take the fight to those who put them on this path. Of course in all likelyhood El Daiblo will be dead by issue six. Overall, the comic is Interesting, but not sure I'm a fan as yet.
Red Hood and the Outlaws #2 - After the annoying Starfire background last issue, I was expecting to dislike it again, however, I can't help but like Red Hood and Arsenal, Starfire stills needs improvement, serious improvement, but I am really enjoying Red Hood. As someone just coming into DC comics for the first time, and having around 99% of my DC knowledge from movies, cartoons and the occasional glance at Wiki/Comic Vine, I was surprised and very interested to learn Red Hood/Jason is a former Robin, Batman ally, and is obviously who Batman was referring to when speaking to Batwoman in Batwoman #1. I was thinking this might be the first title I might drop, after issue two, I'm not so sure.
Justice League #2 - I wasn't expecting to enjoy Justice League as much as I am, individually I'm not the biggest fan of Green Lantern, Flash, Supes and even Wonder Woman, but so far I am really enjoying the restart of the League. The banter between Green Lantern and Batman has been excellent reading, and overall plot and seemingly 'new' origin of Cyborg is looking very nice. Darkseid being the intial opponent seems a good move as well, throw them a threat big enough to unite the team, and yeah, I wasn't expecting to say this, but its in my top five. Looking forward to issue three, and potentially might convince me to look at the individual comics of the main characters at a later date.
On a side note, anyone picking up I have only noted four for my current top five, is due to the fact I am considering Dark Knight in there just off the strength of the first issue, really looking forward to that one, not so sure on Voodoo, unless it improves quickly it might be the first one I drop, but overall DCNU is working very nicely for me.
@MDS: Great reviews. Sadly, I am still waiting for my books but you've really ramped my up about my Bat- (and Cat-) titles. Seeing as you liked BoP the past two months, you may want to check out the Huntress miniseries.
Yeah, I am starting to think I should have squeezed Huntress in there. A) She's another Gotham based character, and B) I've always liked her in any of the cartoons she's appeared in.
Might see if I can find an Issue #1 and #2 when I next go to Ipswich, and possibly start collecting her from #3 if I like it.
On a side note, really impressed with Econimic Comics, had all my issues dead on so far even though I'm only a two month old customer. Also when I asked for five sleeves and card backs, as the Ipswich store doesn't give card backs (and charges a lot more per issue) they only charged me 20p. Spot on.
I've not read the Detective comics this time, so no idea sadly. I had to draw a line somewhere, and I didn't take that one, or Batman and Robin from the main four Batman titles.
On a side note, just grabbed Huntress #1 and #2 off ebay, didn't realise it was a short run comic otherwise I'd have got it.
Ah good, was more worried one or two of the comics I was enjoying, like Catwoman was a short run.
Mmm, wonder if Huntress will sell enough to get a regular series, or will she just pop back up in Birds of Prey at a later date?
Regardless, will be looking forward to reading them, although typically had to get them from two different stores, whats the bet issue #2 arrives first.
Anung Un Rama wrote:Liefeld is penceling Hawk and Dove in the new 52. And you probably get most Deadpool stories before me. I'll have to order them from the UK or wait for the translation.
Have you read the Deadpool Marvel Max story and/or Deadpool: Pulp?
No, I don't read any Deadpool anymore because of the aforementioned problems. I don't even know how he got like this. For me, Deadpool ended when Joe Kelly left the original series.
Joe Kelly's Deadpool is a far more interesting character, that's for sure. But I love the completly whacky split-personality Deadpool as well. Merc with a Mouth, Dark Reign, Hit Monkey, Suicide Kings, I had blast with all of them.
FEAR ITSELF #7 SPOILERS, NOW SPOILER TAGGED BECAUSE SOMEONE FORGOT TO DO THAT THEMSELVES!
Spoiler:
WTF? Captain America lifted Thor's hammer!
Thor's dead!
The mosque near ground zero is a well liked food bank supporting the community in time of need.
WTF? Captain America lifted Thor's hammer!
Thor's dead!
The mosque near ground zero is a well liked food bank supporting the community in time of need.
Wait.. what.
I'm struggling to get back into X-men at the moment, thats just.
MDS, you mentioned earlier in the thread that you used to subscribe to the "red v. blue" mentality about not reading DC and I realized that, Batman aside, I was the same way as a kid. Now, I find it's the reverse -- without an exception in the Marvel line-up like there always had been in the DC one. I've paged through a few recent Marvel titles without anything piquing my interest. The X-Titles' convultions make Final Crisis through Flashpoint look simple, for example. The Avengers, meanwhile, is trying desperately hard to replicate the gravitas of the JLA -- with little success, IMO. I wish they'd do a "Ultimate Doctor Strange" or something.
My point is that I'm not hating on Marvel to hate on Marvel. I think they're a better company than DC in a lot of ways, actually. I just can't get into the content.
Meanwhile:
Patton Oswalt, regarding DC Comics, wrote:For right now, I'm mad at them; we're having a fight; they're sleeping on the couch; eventually I'll let them back in the bed.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:FEAR ITSELF #7 SPOILERS, NOW SPOILER TAGGED BECAUSE SOMEONE FORGOT TO DO THAT THEMSELVES!
Spoiler:
WTF? Captain America lifted Thor's hammer!
Thor's dead!
The mosque near ground zero is a well liked food bank supporting the community in time of need.
Spoiler:
He did if before iirc.
Isn't the first time either.
I don't care.
Sorry. Seemed like I was the only one following it...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote:MDS, you mentioned earlier in the thread that you used to subscribe to the "red v. blue" mentality about not reading DC and I realized that, Batman aside, I was the same way as a kid. Now, I find it's the reverse -- without an exception in the Marvel line-up like there always had been in the DC one. I've paged through a few recent Marvel titles without anything piquing my interest. The X-Titles' convultions make Final Crisis through Flashpoint look simple, for example. The Avengers, meanwhile, is trying desperately hard to replicate the gravitas of the JLA -- with little success, IMO. I wish they'd do a "Ultimate Doctor Strange" or something.
My point is that I'm not hating on Marvel to hate on Marvel. I think they're a better company than DC in a lot of ways, actually. I just can't get into the content.
Meanwhile:
Patton Oswalt, regarding DC Comics, wrote:For right now, I'm mad at them; we're having a fight; they're sleeping on the couch; eventually I'll let them back in the bed.
I think when you're a kid everyone's like that. You're either Marvel or DC. Sony or Nintendo etc. Obviously, as adults we're a little more mature and I'm just looking for good stories. My two favorite books are Image now and I used to hate them. Anyways, when it comes to the big 2 if you didn't grow up with them it can be really inaccessible to try to get into now. Like obviously I'm just going to be more familiar with the C-List Marvel stars like Spider-Woman and War Machine than with Black Canary and Huntress. It's hard to follow two huge universes at once. That's why I was hoping Batman would get the full reset, like not even Robin, but it seems like he's the least rebooted of all.
Huntress one arrived this morning, Cheers fr the heads up Manchu, a good read, and it notes on the issue, she'll be rejoining Birds of Prey after the mini series, so damn glad you raised it.
I should really pay more attention, didn't do much research before I put in my intial order. Heh.
Watched X-Men: First Class over the weekend again, now I feel like reading some X-Men comics. Can anyone recommend something? Preferebly something with Magneto in it.
That movie was cooler than most of the comics. My friend bought all of the Age of Apocalypse TPBs, he's going to lend them to me later. Should be good I think.
Denny O'Neill wrote:Batman's not just not Jewish, he's also a Republican. I would like to have him on my side, but I wouldn't want to hang out with him.
Some interesting conversation about Bob Kane, Will Eisner, Batman, and the Spirit from NYCC.
Alpharius wrote:The Age of Apocalypse is fun, but it also unfortunately spawned a monster in all that came after it...
I dunno. I really enjoyed Warren Ellis's take on X-man.
BY that I meant that they keep going back to that particular Apocalyptic Well...
I'm reading Uncanny X-Force right now. They've been in the AoA universe for like 7 issues now. Still, pretty interesting, though a bit convuluted. That's the problem when you write a good story, people can't get enough then they ruin it.
Anung: Deadpool's on the team. Somehow it's slipped under your Deadpool radar! He doesn't have time to be schizoid in it so I like him there.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anung Un Rama wrote:How's Joss Whedon's run? I heard good things about it.
malfred wrote:
Anung Un Rama wrote:How's Joss Whedon's run? I heard good things about it.
Do you mean for Astonishing X-men?
I think Whedon's Astoshing X-Men actually exists in it's own little pocket universe. You don't need any preexisting knowledge of what happened before or elsewhere in the Marvel U. Don't know anything about the actual stories themselves but they'd probably be a good one to check out.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote:
Denny O'Neill wrote:Batman's not just not Jewish, he's also a Republican. I would like to have him on my side, but I wouldn't want to hang out with him.
Some interesting conversation about Bob Kane, Will Eisner, Batman, and the Spirit from NYCC.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Batman's a Republican? Isn't his defining characteristic being against capital punishment?
His defining characteristics also seem to be: being a billionaire who thinks the justice system is too soft on criminals.
He's also a humanitarian striving to help the poor and downtrodden.
He's not an aloof Billionaire like Trump. He's aloof from other billionaires and very away of what's going on on the streets and in back alleys like....Bruce Wayne.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:He's also a humanitarian striving to help the poor and downtrodden.
Well, actually, he's a philanthropist. He gives money away to charities but I've never seen either Batman or Bruce Wayne advocate higher taxes for an expansion of government-provided social services. Furthermore, Batman does not fight crime primarily to help the poor and downtrodden but rather to avenge those who have suffered the injustice of crime. Whether a wealthy entrepreneur or penniless urchin, Batman will hunt your down and punish you for your crimes. And, as it so happens, Batman's enemies are not usually wealthy except insofar as heists and arms/drugdealing have made them so. Contrast this to Superman's nemesis, who has been a legitimate billionaire and off-again-on-again CEO of a (usually) legitimate business since the 1980s.
Haha, it doesn't bother me. Republicans aren't all bad people any more than Democrats, after all. Plus, Mr. O'Neill is using stereotypes here, contrasting "Republican" with "Jew." But, you know, Bats is a billionaire, there's no getting around it -- and he clearly, clearly, clearly thinks he knows better than the government how to spend that money.
They never talk about it the comics, do they? It's just kind of a "clear implication." I bet he votes. Wouldn't he look bad if he didn't get involved with the civic life of Gotham? Some think of Bruce Wayne as this devil-may-care playboy who's too immature to think about society -- but, on the other hand, he gives a ton of money to charities and is always appearing at functions in support of social concerns. Even Arkham City begins with Bruce Wayne speaking out against Mayor Sharp.
I was about to say the Bruce Wayne persona comes off as someone who doesn't even know who the president is. You know, one of those people. On the other hand he is successfuly running a multi billion dollar industry. He should have politicians knocking down his door. I'm talking about Bruce Wayne of course. Batman knows everything that's happening everywhere. In his early days Bruce could pull of the ignorant my company runs itself thing (The Batman Begins era) but now that he's a bit older he probably is more open about the fact that he's completely in control. His competencey is out of the closet if you will.
Manchu wrote:Haha, it doesn't bother me. Republicans aren't all bad people any more than Democrats, after all. Plus, Mr. O'Neill is using stereotypes here, contrasting "Republican" with "Jew." But, you know, Bats is a billionaire, there's no getting around it -- and he clearly, clearly, clearly thinks he knows better than the government how to spend that money.
In the DC world, he does know better!
At least as far as many things in Gotham are concerned!
DC USA isn't your guys USA. I wouldn't trust the goverment either. I mean after an earthquake they actually made Gotham secede from the Union. That be like straight up ignoring a major city after it's been destroyed by a hurricane....oh wait.
I read the first 2 stories from Batman Inc. The one in Japan was entertaining. I even knew the villian, Lord Death Man, from a Brave and the Bold episode.
The second story however, which tells 3 stories at the same time, even going back to the original Batwoman, was very confusing.
Manchu wrote:Very eclectic. Ashley Wood's art put me off of ZVR (not saying it's bad or nothing) so maybe it's time I looked into that franchise again.
Melissia wrote:a certain insane little man with a beer named after him
I know you can't mean Frank Miller (Dark Knight Returns came out in 1986!) so you've stumped me.
I admit I've laways been behind the times when it comes to comics. Yes, I meant Miller. It's not just his writing but also his influence. I've heard good things about the relaunch having Batman become a more likable character though...
Melissia wrote:I've heard good things about the relaunch having Batman become a more likable character though...
Depends on what you mean by likable. Batman is likable as having to be a real, honest-to-goodness dad rather than simply a mentor -- one of the things I love about the challenge of Damian. But if you want a traditionally "likable" Batman, Dick Grayson is really you're Batman. Dick Grayson is probably my favorite member of the entire Bat-family and his adventures in the cape'n'cowl are what re-energized me as a Bat-fa, so that's certainly not a bad thing.
Judge Dredd sounds interesting but I need more information on it. When I was in the UK I would see books called Judge Dredd and they'd be pretty big and have 7,8 or 9 on the spine. I assume these are TPBs of some kind? Don't know if the Englishmen serialize their comics in the same way as ours. Where do I start?
In the UK, stories about Judge Dredd and/or his world come out weekly in 2000AD Magazine and monthly in Judge Dredd Megazine. Both are a right pain in the ass to get this side of the pond.
In the UK, stories about Judge Dredd and/or his world come out weekly in 2000AD Magazine and monthly in Judge Dredd Megazine. Both are a right pain in the ass to get this side of the pond.
Thanks. I don't think this is what I saw though. This looks like it's only 4 volumes and what I saw was numbered around 9-14ish. These are probably better anyway. Is this all-encompassing? Like his whole career? Is it black & white?
The USA versions are not going to stop at four, as far as I know. They're just taking it a few progs at a time, going through the whole series. I think the UK versions are up to Volume 18 or 19 now.
The USA versions are not going to stop at four, as far as I know. They're just taking it a few progs at a time, going through the whole series. I think the UK versions are up to Volume 18 or 19 now.
Yes, yes, of course they need to be translated from British to American. I'm not sure which ones would be easier to understand for me anyway. You guys constantly misspell colour, but really, can any North American take "bullocks" seriously as a curse word? Such is the plight of the Canadian.
Veering off topic... it may not be, but it certainly isn't one for polite company, is it?
I realize its origins in the deep mist shrouded past don't exactly hint at it being common discussion fare, and now it basically means 'nonsense' or 'rubbish' but... it isn't something you'd expect to hear everywhere.
Or is it?
reds8n wrote:
.. If it's the 2000AD stuff that you're interested in, then I'd recommend the Slaine series, especially when Bisley was the artist.
I still love "The Apocalypse War" with classic Dredd artist Carlos Ezquerra - straight up 80's style with nukes flying left and right!
Bullocks doesn't mean 'nonsense' or 'rubbish' unless you guys are trying to bypass the swear filter (I aint no grass, I won't tell no-one ).
Replace the 'u' with an 'o' and that's the swear word that is used to mean the above; 'bullocks' refers to castrated male cattle (or any castrated male bovine to be more precise).
As an aside, Damien does seem interesting. Mostly because he's fully willing to back talk Batman and even keep pushing his own ideas over Batman's to an extent, and I like that in a Robin.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW, Grant Morrison keeps saying that 2012's Leviathan will be tragic -- and that's led to speculation that Damian will be killed off. I really hope not. He's a perfect fixture of the Bat-family and his personality-type has been missing from the Hall of Robins:
What made the Dick'n'Damian pairing work so well is that it took seventy years of relationship between Bruce and Dick and reversed it. Suddenly Robin was Batman and Batman was Robin. Damian is really Batman's son. Imagine if Bruce Wayne was developing backwards through time -- not growing away from his parents' murder but towards it. That's Damian -- it's like what if Bruce was born as Batman and at some point invented/became Bruce? That's Damian's journey.
He's much less bloodthirsty these days. His attitude is just that: a pre-teen's obnoxious attitude. What really defines him, as Anung Un Rama pointed out, is how he looks up to Bruce.
German comics are still a bit behind. Batman Inc. only just started. There were a few nice bits of characterisation for Damian in the last Red Robin book.
There are 37 pages to this thread and I'm not reading it all hehe. So here are the comics I collect and recommend (You'll see a theme )
1. Dark Tower Series (If you're a fan of Stephen King's Dark Tower or not, they are amazingly well written and the art is fantastic.)
2. American Vampire (Setting is vampires in the "wild west" time period, Stephen King has a hand in its creation)
3. Aliens vs. Predator - There was a short run of these like, 4-6 and they were amazing. I wish they would have based the movies off of it, would have been better. Wait scratch that, it would have been actually watchable lol.
4. Aliens-Newts Tale - This comic was a direct copy of the movie, but showed a lot of what happened to the colony before the events in the movie, its pretty sweet.
5. Arkum Asylum: A serious House on Serious Earth (Graphic Novel by Grant Morrison and art by Dave McKean. Best Batman book I've had the pleasure of reading)
6. Watchmen (Not for everyone, the movie was fun, but missed a few things. I really enjoyed the hell outta the comic.
7. V for Vendetta - I'm a fan of both the movie and comic, although they differ an a range of things.
8. Firefly/Serenity comics - based on the show/movie. I'm a browncoat for sure, so anything to extend the story makes me happy. I hate FOX for screwing that show over, it was SOOO good.
9. The Stand (Another adaptation of the Stephen King novel, its really good, and the arts fantastic.)
10. Spawn (The Original series) - I have mixed feelings on this because it had a lot of potential and was really fun, but got derailed and then split into a million varients. Not for everyone, and I'm probably only a fan because of my childhood nostalgia hehe.
11. Storm (I can't remember the name of this graphic novel, but its kind of an origin for Storm from x-men. I enjoyed it a great deal. Does anyone know of one for Jean Grey?)
12. The Dresden Files (I'm a Jim Butcher fan, his books are greatness and the comic is no less awesome. I highly recommend BOTH. Also, bookwise, check out his Codex Alera series, it'll blow your mind.)
13. The Walking Dead (The comic is brutal and not for the feint of heart. Its definately worth a try though. ZOMBIES!)
On to WEBCOMICS!
Not everyone likes them, but there are quite a few that are very engaging and the art is really amazing. Or super crappy which makes it fun! Best of all, they are FREE online.
1. Order of the Stick (If you're a DND nerd like me, you'll love this series.
2. Goblins- Life through their eyes (This is my favorite. Again its a DND based nerdgasm where they based the story off a group of Goblins who start to gain character levels. It breaks the fourth wall constantly and you actually start caring for the characters a great deal. VERY GOOD!)
3. Looking for Group (Based loosely on WoW and other things, but never directly referenced. Richard the undead Warlock makes the comic. He's amazingly awesome and hilarious.)
4. Grrl Power (Its new and has potential. Sydney is great and funny. Rest of the cast is still being introduced. Give it a try.)
5. The Phoenix Requiem (Its very slow and definately not for everyone, but the art is fantastic and the characters are solid. If you're more a drama and character build reader then this might interest you. Not a lot of action, but there is some.)
6. Two Kinds (This comic is just fun. Sometimes awkward lol.)
7. Last Blood (This has been on hiatus forever. Seems they have gotten backed by a studio production and might turn into a series. Bout a Zompocalypse where Vampires are saving the last remaining humans to survive.)
8. Earthsong (This one is a bit girly, (not to say thats a bad thing). Its fun and has some unique story angles. Characters are fun.)
I'm sure there are others but those are the ones I read on a regular basis. Let me know what you guys think.
Girl Genius is probably the best mad science/steampunk/gaslamp fantasy comic out there, web or otherwise. Freefall is an amusing little sci-fi comic written and drawn by an engineer of all people, which discusses science and social problems in a futuristic society.
Melissia wrote:Heh, as far as webcomics go, I recommend Girl Genius and Freefall.
Girl Genius is probably the best mad science/steampunk/gaslamp fantasy comic out there, web or otherwise. Freefall is an amusing little sci-fi comic written and drawn by an engineer of all people, which discusses science and social problems in a futuristic society.
Thanks for the links/recommendations - they both look good!
The Girl Genius brings back memories as I'd swear the artists/writers did a lot for DRAGON magazine, waaaay back in the day...
...the Brainiac/Metallo mashup sure is interesting. I assume Brainiac will go his separate way at some point and Corbin can more properly be just Metallo. Or not.
I liked the vision of Krypton...was a little bit retro (Jor-El particularly), a little bit fresh and new, and maybe a little bit of the Byrne-era look too.
Oh, and in Superman...
Spoiler:
What the heck was that fire thing? I thought it was it one of the Appelaxians, but then they followed it up in the next ish with the invisible creature, which definitely isn't one of the original Appelaxians...
Well the X-Men are all schismed up. That was one hell of a fight between Cyclops and Wolverine. Much harder to pick a side in this one than civil war. The point of contention is: is it right to use children to fight and kill in war if that war is one to stave of extinction?
...probably.
So I was flipping though some old comics the other day, and I came across some of my old Aliens\Predator etc stuff. You guys ever read Batman vs Predator? I know team ups and movie crossovers and generally a sure-fire recipe for mediocrity, but it was a really awesome story. Great writing, art was by one of the Kuberts. I highly recommend it.
They apparently did 2 more of those, and each one was strongly in the crap camp I thought the first one would be. Avoid those.
This is only sort of related, but it is part of the reason why I love comics so much.
An episode of Batman: the Brave and the Bold I'm watching... the opening short has batman teaming up with an axe-wielding Abraham Lincoln to fight off a power armored John Wilkes Boothe.
This is almost as awesome as robo-bear versus cyber-gorilla.
Melissia wrote:This is only sort of related, but it is part of the reason why I love comics so much.
An episode of Batman: the Brave and the Bold I'm watching... the opening short has batman teaming up with an axe-wielding Abraham Lincoln to fight off a power armored John Wilkes Boothe.
This is almost as awesome as robo-bear versus cyber-gorilla.
"Batman: The Brave and the Bold", has three seasons, mostly awesome, light-hearted seasons though some of them were pretty dark (Emperor Joker, and the finale both come to mind)
The brave and the bold is fething awesome!!! I haven't seen most of season 3 yet, but I just loved the first two. There's a scene in the 2nd episode which desribes the show pretty well. After the opening scene where Batman teamed up with Plastic Man and Fire in Brazil to fight Gentlemen Ghost he and Plastic Man fly over the ocean in the Batwing (which can turn into the Batmobil, the batboat and a huge robot btw.) and Plastic Man says: Are you seeing what I'm seeing? Because I see gorillas. With laser guns. Riding Dinosaurs. Attacking that yacht.
On topic of crossovers: Just stay away from the Aliens/Predator/Witchblade/Darkness Crossover Overkill.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, according to the DC Database, there is now 2nd part to Kevin Smith's Wydening Gyre. I understand why so many people hate it, but I'd still like to read how it ended. It was a really annoying cliffhanger.
Anung Un Rama wrote:So, according to the DC Database, there is now 2nd part to Kevin Smith's Wydening Gyre. I understand why so many people hate it, but I'd still like to read how it ended. It was a really annoying cliffhanger.
Enjoyed the twist/blindside in Action Comics very much.
Struck me that this origin seems influenced by the old Superman cartoon, which is fine with me.
Works well and goes someway towards explaining the whole Kandor thing I guess.
Spoiler:
Is the white ghost reference a hint about Krypto and/or the phantom zone do you think ?
Swamp Thing and Animal Man both continue to be superb, verging on the Barker territory. The new villain in the former is especially creepy.
Also been reading Slaine : book of invasions, which features some gloriously wonderful and weird art from Clint Langley, well worth checking out if you get the chance.
So I heard Wizard magazine is no more... what do people use now as price guides and lists (I've been out of comic book collecting for a while so there are probably a ton I haven't heard about).
So i had to dig out my issues of The Walking Dead for my lady friend who has taken a sudden interest because of the TV show. It was fun sifting through the strata of comic books and seeing the various titles that have come and gone and that I've picked up and dropped while I did it.
How do you guys store your comics? Bag & board? Just bag? naked? Do you use the standard issue "comic book boxes" and most importantly do you have them catagorized in any way? When I was younger I kept them sorted by title with dividers but I guess I gave up on that and just started throwing them in there willy-nilly. Now it's a just a giant super-powered mess.
Finally got my hands on the first Zatanna TPB from Paul Dini. I never was a big fan of the character, but I wanted to read it, since I'm a huge Dini fan. Zee seems a bit too powerful most of the time, but still enjoyed it.
Got a big pile here waiting for me:
Batman: Arkham City (also Dini ^^ )
Scott Pilgrim #6
Buffy Season 8 finale
Deadpool Classics 3
Thing is, Zatanna has a weaksauce weakness. She is only powerful when she is able to speak.
There are many, many ways to stop someone from speaking.
Heck I could do it with science! Anhydrous calcium chloride dust would do the trick, try breathing when your throat's had its moisture removed so that you're practically choking on your own dry throat.
Melissia wrote:I was saying that in response to her apparently being too powerful lol
Yeah, I got that. But a lot of things seem so easy for her. "Shield me from Death Ray" "switch places with that guy" "transform these girls into doves". Then her cousin shows up, who apperantly is less powerful, but can still teleport at will etc.
Thing is, she IS that powerful. Oh, she's no Phantom Stranger, but she's one of the most powerful magic users in the DCU...
She's basically the superman or wonder woman of the magic users segment of superheroes (Though perhaps a more fair comparison would be Captain Marvel-- perhaps she's the Batman?).
I picked up the third volume of Criminal, The Dead and the
Dying. This comic book series by Ed Brubaker is enthralling. It
keeps me coming back the way Azzarello's did with its grand
crime themes. And the stories all intertwine!
Green Lantern started last week AFAIK.... guess, once again, over here we'll have to wait and wait and then rely on ebay.
Time for another email to Warner about region 2 box sets.
... Aardman Animation Batman ?
Sure some of you saw the Jim lee redesign of Darkseid t'other day
which.. well.... It's Darkseid, as drawn by Jim Lee ? .... Should have stuck with the design in the early Morrison JLA run, that was a Darkseid to be a fear't of.
and in other news...
Beginning in February 2012, DC Comics will be launching BATMAN BEYOND UNLIMITED, a monthly print periodical which will collect chapters from various digital-first series. Releasing weekly, JUSTICE LEAGUE BEYOND and BATMAN BEYOND will come out as individual chapters prior to (and in conjunction with) the collected, 48-page monthly BATMAN BEYOND UNLIMITED print edition.
JUSTICE LEAGUE BEYOND is from the creative team of Dustin Nguyen and Derek Fridolfs, adding Batman (Terry McGinnis) to the team of superheroes to combat a Neo Goath-related enemy. And in BATMAN BEYOND, from Adam Beecham and Norm Breyfogle, McGinnis and Bruce Wayne face an onslaught of Jokerz – and the return of an old foe.
DC Entertainment has previously released digital-first series including BEYOND THE FRINGE, as well as the limited run of BATMAN: ARKHAM UNLEASHED and BATMAN: ARKHAM CITY, which was recently collected in a hardcover release last month. BATMAN BEYOND UNLIMITED marks the first time that DC Entertainment is launching an ongoing series digitally ahead of its planned monthly print release.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and in other, good news
I strongly dislike Mark Millar, to me, he comes off as a racist and his writing is generally pretty juvenile and heavy handed. He's like a poor imitation Garth Ennis.
Frank Miller is a nutjob. His latest works have been complete spank, so I'm not suprised he was ranting incoherantly at the Occupy crowd.
Young Justice is awesome though. It's the only DC comics thing I'm interested in right now.
Da Boss wrote:I strongly dislike Mark Millar, to me, he comes off as a racist and his writing is generally pretty juvenile and heavy handed. He's like a poor imitation Garth Ennis.
I hate him too. Everything he write must include sexual deviance of some sort. No body likes a good rape or incest more than Mark Miller. I got tricked one last time by Kick-Ass. I really liked the movie so I figured I'd pick up the book. What a piece of crap. The comic sucks compared to the movie.
Ha, I don't like either of them. I pointed it out because, like DaBoss said, this shouldn't be a surprise. If you pay attention to anything that Frank Miller writes (even the super popular Batman titles) his recent rant should not have caught you off-guard.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Da Boss wrote:Young Justice is awesome though. It's the only DC comics thing I'm interested in right now.
I really enjoyed Mark Millars inital run on the Ultimates, but a lot of his comics seem to be very violent. I usually don't have problems with fictional violence in movies or games, but it always feels like Millar gives his artists some very specific instructions and the result makes me squirm a bit.
Anung Un Rama wrote:I really enjoyed Mark Millars inital run on the Ultimates, but a lot of his comics seem to be very violent. I usually don't have problems with fictional violence in movies or games, but it always feels like Millar gives his artists some very specific instructions and the result makes me squirm a bit.
My local comic shop is getting a lot of my money these days. Just last week I bought the Arkham City TPB and when I came by today they had the 3rd Streets of Gotham TPB, the Hush finale, if I'm not mistaken.
Ouze wrote:So I was flipping though some old comics the other day, and I came across some of my old Aliens\Predator etc stuff. You guys ever read Batman vs Predator? I know team ups and movie crossovers and generally a sure-fire recipe for mediocrity, but it was a really awesome story. Great writing, art was by one of the Kuberts. I highly recommend it.
They apparently did 2 more of those, and each one was strongly in the crap camp I thought the first one would be. Avoid those.
The first one is one of my favorite storylines... I didn't like the 2nd one as much... never read the third.
Loving Poison Ivy in BoP, could very quickly become a favourite comic depending on how it goes.
Tried Uncanny X-men 1, but couldn't get into it, didn't like some of the redesigns, but I'm still struggling with this, nearly all mutants are dead/depowered storyline.
I always hoped the age of apocalypse would be a future that was avoidable, or so far off it would never really come to light other than the odd time travel escapade. Having it so firmly entrenched on the horizon is a big turn off for me.
reds8n wrote:Sure some of you saw the Jim lee redesign of Darkseid t'other day
which.. well.... It's Darkseid, as drawn by Jim Lee ? .... Should have stuck with the design in the early Morrison JLA run, that was a Darkseid to be a fear't of.
Read the latest JL, and thought it was interesting that...
Spoiler:
...Cyborg's tech is apparently of Apokalyptan (sp?) origin.
I'm reading House of Hush now and I love it. I fething hate Tommy Elliot but I think that's one of the reasons I can't get enough of this series. Bedbug is similar -- gross, creepy, in need of an ass-whupping? -- check, check, and check. Sometimes it's good to have villains that you enjoy seeing fail rather than always having ones with whom you can sympathize. Nobody draws Damian as well as Dustin Nguyen so, yeah, I wish there was more Dick & Damian. OTOH, it's good to see more with Bruce loving on Selina -- Heart of Hush is one of my all-time favorite Bat-stories. The only other woman I can even stand to see Batman with is Talia. It's kind of like with Dick -- it's either gotta be Babs or Starfire (although maybe not Starfire any more ...). Nothing else seems meaningful; just more potential ladies in refrigerators.
I read Noel last night and found it to be thoroughly ... okay. Jim Lee gives it a glowing foreward that I can't help but feel oversells the book. The art is absolutely great but far from iconic, as with some of Lee Bermejo's other work. Although Mr. Bermejo is obviously a fine artist he won't be putting any writers out of work with this entry.
There are some nice set-ups and while they are never over-played they also don't seem to really satisfy. Superman is in it, for example, as the Spirit of Christmas Present. Whenever Bats and Supes both happen to be in a pensive mood, there's the possibility for some really heavy conversation. Mr. Bermejo wisely keeps it relatively light here. (Pay attention Kevin Smith, you ass!) Superman gives us a fairly convincing "milk of human kindness" perspective but, like the rest of the book, Mr. Bermejo just manages to avoid really yanking on the heart strings, which is how the Christmas Carol is supposed to work. Encounters with Catwoman (Christmas Past) and the Joker (Christmas Future) are even less fulfilling, considering what they might have been. Maybe he needed more pages?
The best idea here, however, is framing Batman as Scrooge. It works very, very well at the beginning of the story even if it's almost hard to accept at first. But the metaphor becomes less and less apt as the book drives forward. In Dickens's Christmas Carol, Scrooge has a change of heart and becomes open to the love and joy and peace that he formerly renounced. This can't really happen with Batman. If it did, Batman would have to retire. But Mr. Bermejo blithely ignores this, what could be an excellent gothic, tragic twist, and shoehorns a "he wants people to remember him as noble" angle in that doesn't make a lot of sense from any perspective, least of all Bruce's.
I think Mr. Bermejo knew this was a thin spot in his story. Noel's narrator tells us at the beginning of the book that we have to believe that people can change if the story is going to make sense. The problem is that Bruce doesn't change -- but, hey, tell that to Peter Tomasi, who has Bats celebrating his parents' wedding anniversary instead of commemorating the day of their murder. We'll see, as the years go by, if Mr. Tomasi's contribution in that regard "sticks." (Can you tell that I'm doubtful?)
To sum up, Noel's a nice book and well worth the cover price for any Bat-fan. How can I say that after seemingly panning it? Well, it's a thoughtful book. It really made me think about my favorite character in a new light -- not bad for me since I've been thinking about this 72-year-old character for the last 26 years. The art, while not establishing any new standard for Batman, is a very fine treat. The cityscapes are pitch-perfect (I hope whoever gets a hold of the film franchise after Nolan will read this book) and the visual pacing of the story is very, very engaging.
Noel may not be a book that we'll talk about ten years from now but that's fine with me. They can't all be gold and silver ain't bad.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Loving Poison Ivy in BoP, could very quickly become a favourite comic depending on how it goes.
Tried Uncanny X-men 1, but couldn't get into it, didn't like some of the redesigns, but I'm still struggling with this, nearly all mutants are dead/depowered storyline.
That's because the group has splintered into Team Cyclops and Team Wolverine. Team Cyclops is the almost-villianous rogue state guys. Check out Wolverine & The X-Men for more old school x-men stuff. Seeing Wolverine struggle as the headmaster of a school is actually pretty funny.
My last order from the UK arrived: Hush Beyond. And I friggin' loved it. The best Batman Beyond episodes where when Terry met older Bat-villians and partners and this comic delivers. The writer really got the flair of the show right too. Especially old Bruce yelling "McGuiness!" in his headset all the time
KamikazeCanuck wrote:I still haven't even seen the Return of the Joker movie.
You should change that. ASAP. Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker is the best "episode" the entire show had. It brings everything that makes Beyond so much fun and is a another great duett between Mark Hammil and Kevin Conroy.
All the Invisibles. All of it. In one book. 1536 pages worth. The Invisibles Omnibus collecting The Invisibles Volume 1 #1-25, Volume 2 #1-22, Volume 3 #12-1 and the short story from Vertigo Winters Edge #1. All written by Grant Morrison, with art from the likes of Steve Yeowell, Jilll Thompson, Dennis Cramer, Chris Weston, John Ridgway, Steve Parkhouse, Kim DeMulder, Paul Johnson, Phil Jimenez, John Stokes, Tommy Lee Edwards, Dick Giordano, Mark Buckingham, Mark Pennington, Michael Lark, Keith Aiken, Marc Hempel, Ray Kryssing, Philip Bond, Glyn Dillon, Ivan Reis, Warren Pleece, Sean Phillips, Jay Stephens, Frank Quitely and… Grant Morrison himself.
got all the original series, been, slowly, picking up the tdpbks, but this is great news indeed.
This is one of the best comic book series ever written, if you're even vaguely into the modern sci fi/fantasy genre then this is pretty much essential IMO. The Jimienez illustrated sections are especially gorgeous, even by his standards.
Not due until August 2012, so plenty of time to save pennies too.
All the Invisibles. All of it. In one book. 1536 pages worth. The Invisibles Omnibus collecting The Invisibles Volume 1 #1-25, Volume 2 #1-22, Volume 3 #12-1 and the short story from Vertigo Winters Edge #1. All written by Grant Morrison, with art from the likes of Steve Yeowell, Jilll Thompson, Dennis Cramer, Chris Weston, John Ridgway, Steve Parkhouse, Kim DeMulder, Paul Johnson, Phil Jimenez, John Stokes, Tommy Lee Edwards, Dick Giordano, Mark Buckingham, Mark Pennington, Michael Lark, Keith Aiken, Marc Hempel, Ray Kryssing, Philip Bond, Glyn Dillon, Ivan Reis, Warren Pleece, Sean Phillips, Jay Stephens, Frank Quitely and… Grant Morrison himself.
got all the original series, been, slowly, picking up the tdpbks, but this is great news indeed.
This is one of the best comic book series ever written, if you're even vaguely into the modern sci fi/fantasy genre then this is pretty much essential IMO. The Jimienez illustrated sections are especially gorgeous, even by his standards.
Not due until August 2012, so plenty of time to save pennies too.
Has anyone read Daredevil: Shadowland? I saw it at the local comic store in 2 TPBs. Seemed like another DD story where he gets a lot of help from Luke, Spidey and Iron Fist and I usually like those stories.
I skipped that whole thing. It is poorly reviewed and I've never really followed DD anyway. I think actually DD is the bad guy in it but I'm not sure. All I know is Black Panter is basically the new DD and "The Man Without Fear."
You know who's a pretty bad artist? Rob Liefeld. I was collecting Infinite because of the writer but I just can't take it anymore. Unfortunately still have one on order.
Still working my way through the pages of Crimiinal. Also read
Astro City: Dark Ages conclusion. Fantastic read! Somehow
Busiek creates storylines that fit a decade's worth of material
into the time span of just a single trade volume.
Reading Deadpool Classics 3, thank again to Canuck for recommending it. While I love the current Deadpool in stories like Merc with a Mouth or Hit Monkey, this "old" 'pool is way more interesting as a character. He still wants to be a hero (and I thought that was a new thing) but in this classic version he has some real problems getting there. He's not crazy, more like "broken", which, if you think about it, fits the character.
Anung Un Rama wrote:Reading Deadpool Classics 3, thank again to Canuck for recommending it. While I love the current Deadpool in stories like Merc with a Mouth or Hit Monkey, this "old" 'pool is way more interesting as a character. He still wants to be a hero (and I thought that was a new thing) but in this classic version he has some real problems getting there. He's not crazy, more like "broken", which, if you think about it, fits the character.
Your welcome. Ya, when bad things happen to him in that I actually feel bad for him. Now he's just a cartoon character. What issue does that get too?
I suspect/wonder if we might well see Bruce Wayne step down or be injured and replaced, perhaps indeed by the mentioned cop. If so i reckon that person will die or be killed which will lead to Bruce Wayne's return.
@Red: When you were reading Cracked on Rachel Dawes did you not think "um, Alfred?" Don't get me wrong, I think he's probably right and Rises will be that meh.
A lot of folks say Nolan's movies are defined by their realism. I disagree. Their most definitive feature is the character of Rachel Dawes. And that character fething sucks.
Huh? What I am saying is that the character of Batman is not the definitive piece of any of the various renditions of Batman except insofar as he is different fro other renditions -- because of his interactions with other characters, for example. IMO, Rachel Dawes is the character, completely unique to Nolan's films, that has the largest impact on who Bruce/Batman is in Nolan's films. The fact that she is, IMO, an awful character means that this version of Batman is far, far from my favorite.
I think this Batman is as Batman as any other Batman is Batman except his voice would make a death metal singer snigger. As for being defined by his relationships with other characters - that's Batman. Having great villians has always been what sets Batman above the rest of the heroes. As for Rachel Dawes, well she seems about as interesting as Vicki Vale or whoever the hell Nicole Kidman was. Maybe having uninteresting love interests is also Batman.
Edit: At least she served as a plot point to make Two-Face Two-Face. That's more than can be said for the rest.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Maybe having uninteresting love interests is also Batman.
Selina, Talia, Zatanna and Diana (in the DCAU) dissagree.
So, (ultimate) Spider-Man is dead... well, !
Spoiler:
The story in itself worked, that Spidey got himself killed because he confronted the sinister six even though he knew he was badly wounded. What pissed me off though, was that the Ultimates could've saved him, if they wouldn't have been busy fighting among each other. I'm still not sure if I even want to read the Ultimates Tie-in to Death of Spider-Man.
The saddest thing about the whole ordeal was, that for the first time during the entire series, Peter's life was... good. He was back with his girlfriend, he had a job, the relationships with friends and family couldn't have been better. I wanted to read more!
Deadpool Classics continues to impress and I am baffled by how the character has changed over the years.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Maybe having uninteresting love interests is also Batman.
Selina, Talia, Zatanna and Diana (in the DCAU) dissagree.
So, (ultimate) Spider-Man is dead... well, !
Spoiler:
The story in itself worked, that Spidey got himself killed because he confronted the sinister six even though he knew he was badly wounded. What pissed me off though, was that the Ultimates could've saved him, if they wouldn't have been busy fighting among each other. I'm still not sure if I even want to read the Ultimates Tie-in to Death of Spider-Man.
The saddest thing about the whole ordeal was, that for the first time during the entire series, Peter's life was... good. He was back with his girlfriend, he had a job, the relationships with friends and family couldn't have been better. I wanted to read more!
Deadpool Classics continues to impress and I am baffled by how the character has changed over the years.
Oh yeah, I think when spidey actually gets shot is in ultimates vs. avengers. You're not missing much though. Pretty sure they show it in USM too right?
Manchu wrote:A lot of folks say Nolan's movies are defined by their realism. I disagree. Their most definitive feature is the character of Rachel Dawes. And that character fething sucks.
Err, what? I barely even remember Rachel Dawes, how can that character be the most definitive feature?
What defines the Dark Knight series is the villains.
Ledger aside, there is nothing memorable or unique about the villains of Nolan's movies. What did we get from Nolan? Alfred's bizarre cockney accent, the Michael Bay-style Batmobile, the Bat-growl ... Yeah, yeah. But when you consider Nolan's take on the character of Batman, nothing is more important as Rachel Dawes. If you barely noticed her, I don't think you understood the movie.
I find the realism too far along the scale, when Joker blows up the Hospital for example, that just felt they where shooting the shot in LA, not a version of Gotham.
This is my main gripe with them, I don't get a very good Gotham vibe from them.
Secondly, I agree with Manchu, none of the villians have been well done. Tis sad to me, that the recent cartoon versions of Joker outdo Heaths in every aspect.
Manchu wrote:If you barely noticed her, I don't think you understood the movie.
If she's all you noticed, I think you definitely didn't understand it.
Thanks for that non sequitur. Now go rewatch the movie for comprehension. Actually, I'll burn some of my own time explaining it to you: Dawes acts as Bruce's anchor to pre-trauma normality, especially regarding morality. A character that mediates between Bruce and Batman based on Bruce's childhood is the most significant departure from other iterations of the franchise. Even Alfred, when not a Cockney, is very circumspect about this. Moreover, Nolan has Dawes as the source of Batman's definitive heroic aspect -- his renunciation of lethal violence and devotion to Gotham. Batman is the title-character, yes, but Dawes defines him. She is the pivotal character of the first movie (Ras is a complete afterthought by comparison) and although she is less prominent in the second one she still is at the center of every plotline.
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Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Secondly, I agree with Manchu, none of the villians have been well done. Tis sad to me, that the recent cartoon versions of Joker outdo Heaths in every aspect.
I think Ledger's Joker is great -- for, like Melissia said, an "elseworlds" Joker. I prefer Nicholson and I think Nicholson is closer to definitive/representative.
As to Gotham, Mr. Bermejo's Noel is an excellent portrayal of Gotham for those who prefer something less stylized than Anton Furst's vision but not so "right down the block" literal as Nathan Crowley's.
I don't see why it's a big deal that Dawes was given an emphasis.
She was another piece motivating Bruce into becoming Batman and staying the course.
For all intents and purposes, they kind of hashed a Tim Drake motivational character(if you don't recall, Drake is who brought Bruce out of the funk after Jason Todd's death. Bruce was being a lot more violent, withdrawn--and seemingly didn't even really realize it) in alongside what we saw in "The Dark Knight" as a Jason Todd moment.
Look at it like this, Kan. What did Batman learn from Ra's al Ghul in Batman Begins? Some fighting moves and how to be scary. And what did he learn from Rachel? Not to kill; to devote himself to justice as much as vengeance; to fight for his father's vision of sorting Gotham out. In other words, Batman learned how to be Batman from Rachel -- you know, minus the karate and growly voice.
I don't think Rachel and Tim are comparable at all. Rachel invalidates Tim (and Alfred and Gordon and Dick and Babara). There would never be a need for Tim Drake in Nolan's Gotham.
Manchu wrote:Look at it like this, Kan. What did Batman learn from Ra's al Ghul in Batman Begins? Some fighting moves and how to be scary. And what did he learn from Rachel? Not to kill; to devote himself to justice as much as vengeance; to fight for his father's vision of sorting Gotham out. In other words, Batman learned how to be Batman from Rachel -- you know, minus the karate and growly voice.
I don't think Rachel and Tim are comparable at all. Rachel invalidates Tim (and Alfred and Gordon and Dick and Babara). There would never be a need for Tim Drake in Nolan's Gotham.
Pretty much - and in case anyone wasn't paying attention, that sums it up nicely!
I said that she served a similar role. Rachel in the first two movies is essentially a composite character of Drake and Todd, with Tim Drake's role of "showing Batman who he really was"(after he'd lost his way, mind you) happening before we see her filling Jason Todd's role as a galvanizing force following the death of the character.
Alfred and Gordon always really have a place, as they're Bruce's equals--or in Alfred's case, someone he looks up to. Dick and Barbara would have been far harder to work in, as Dick is just...well, he's "born to be in the centerstage". Dick doesn't work well as a background character or side character. Barbara does, but requires The Joker to really do that.
Ra'as al Ghul has always had kind of a backburner role outside of him being a nemesis, at least IMO. He's a puppeteer, not a fighter--and the League of Shadows isn't exactly always going to be advertising their involvement.
I didn't say Rachel was Tim, either. I said I don't think they're comparable, i.e., they don't serve a similar role.
As for the other characters, ask yourself what the movie would lose if Alfred and Gordon weren't in it at all. Some "heart," whatever that means, maybe? Some recognizability for the franchise, more likely. But no plot points would need major revisions, thanks to Rachel doing almost everything.
I totally disagree with your statements about Dick & Babs. Please see Batman TAS, for example. Ra's, too, is hardly a backburner. Yes, he's in the shadows for much of the time but there's always the climactic fight -- which Nolan gave us, mind. My bringing up Ra's was to show that he was not a pivotal character in Batman Begins compared to Rachel, that's all.
Manchu wrote:
I think Ledger's Joker is great -- for, like Melissia said, an "elseworlds" Joker. I prefer Nicholson and I think Nicholson is closer to definitive/representative.
As to Gotham, Mr. Bermejo's Noel is an excellent portrayal of Gotham for those who prefer something less stylized than Anton Furst's vision but not so "right down the block" literal as Nathan Crowley's.
Ah misunderstood, and I liked Scarecrow to be fair, just had a serious doubt on the way they potrayed Joker, and really had a strong dislike of the two-face storyline.. regarding Joker, I also prefer Nicholson over him myself. Ra Ghul, is a odd one for me, as that was the first time I'd ever heard of him at the time, he seemed okay, but Batman Begins was a bit all over the place for m anyways.
However, reagarding Gotham, aye, the style is key for me. I take a lot (maybe too much?) from the phrase Gotham is Night to Metropolis' Day, and I really struggle in places with Dark Knight. Some have issues with Burton's films, but I loved the style and gothic feeling that dripped off the screen throughout those films. Although Nolan has it in places, stuff like the Hospital scene, and a couple of the city shots in various chase sequences seemed to much in line with our own world.
Once again, MDS, we are on the same page. (I think it's because we were both Marvel hard-liners once upon a time.) If you could ever confuse Gotham for Metropolis or vice versa someone has seriously fethed up regarding one or both cities. But I don't think Metropolis exists in the Nolanverse. I don't mean, "Superman isn't going to be in the movies" either -- I mean I don't think Superman or his city are possible in that kind of literalistic style.
I really disliked the portrayal of Ra's in Batman Begins. It's not Ra's al Ghul. It really is Henri Ducard and they're calling him Ra's. Maybe it started as a double double cross plot but it seems like Nolan really wanted Henri to be Ra's so a lot of people who only see the character in that film are really missing out.
) Love her as a character, and once again I lament on how poor they translated that over for the 'movie' *shudders* looking forward to the next issue.
