MechaEmperor7000 wrote: I still remember when T-Sons were a strong contender when Rubrics had 2 wounds a piece (and back then invul saves, FnP, and even instant death were all VERY rare) and the sorceror didn't cost as much as a naked chaos lord. Hell even the 3rd edition T-Sons were a force to be reckoned with, as they were flat out immune to S5 weapons if I remember correctly. And that was just their basic troops.
What's more frustrating is that while T-Sons in older editions were restricted by the mentality that there shouldn't be psyker spam (this is pre-5th edition GK codex), recent codexes basically gave it to other factions when T-Sons were the original Psyker-spam army. Plus I think it salts the wound more when Deathguard got a whole slew of new toys (even considering the tzaangors and terminators, Death Guard still have more in the form of two new tanks and the drone) but T-Sons only got a reboxing of some old AoS junk no one remembered existed.
That was the 3rd Ed codex and I remember it, they could indeed only be wounded by str5 or more weapons, and at the time chaos had NO invuns for its characters at all, was a crazy time
Then 3.5 came and again we had some ok ish Tsons units, the Book of Tzeench had some really cool fluffy options and that tiny little thing had a lot more effort put into it that the entire new codex.
then the dark times of chaos came........
book after book GW messed up chaos, people at the time said they were fine, said things were not as bad as we thought, said that we were overreacting and be happy with what we got........ yeah, sounds familiar doesnt it
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: I still remember when T-Sons were a strong contender when Rubrics had 2 wounds a piece (and back then invul saves, FnP, and even instant death were all VERY rare) and the sorceror didn't cost as much as a naked chaos lord. Hell even the 3rd edition T-Sons were a force to be reckoned with, as they were flat out immune to S5 weapons if I remember correctly. And that was just their basic troops.
What's more frustrating is that while T-Sons in older editions were restricted by the mentality that there shouldn't be psyker spam (this is pre-5th edition GK codex), recent codexes basically gave it to other factions when T-Sons were the original Psyker-spam army. Plus I think it salts the wound more when Deathguard got a whole slew of new toys (even considering the tzaangors and terminators, Death Guard still have more in the form of two new tanks and the drone) but T-Sons only got a reboxing of some old AoS junk no one remembered existed.
3E Rubrics were immune to S4 and under...
I do miss that dex a bit, I ran a full Slaanesh list back then, do hope if EC show up we'll get some nice stuff.
What's more frustrating is that while T-Sons in older editions were restricted by the mentality that there shouldn't be psyker spam (this is pre-5th edition GK codex), recent codexes basically gave it to other factions when T-Sons were the original Psyker-spam army. Plus I think it salts the wound more when Deathguard got a whole slew of new toys (even considering the tzaangors and terminators, Death Guard still have more in the form of two new tanks and the drone) but T-Sons only got a reboxing of some old AoS junk no one remembered existed.
Didn't they tell you?
Nothing should be a thing in this game, unless IoM has it.
What's more frustrating is that while T-Sons in older editions were restricted by the mentality that there shouldn't be psyker spam (this is pre-5th edition GK codex), recent codexes basically gave it to other factions when T-Sons were the original Psyker-spam army. Plus I think it salts the wound more when Deathguard got a whole slew of new toys (even considering the tzaangors and terminators, Death Guard still have more in the form of two new tanks and the drone) but T-Sons only got a reboxing of some old AoS junk no one remembered existed.
Didn't they tell you?
Nothing should be a thing in this game, unless IoM has it.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: What's more frustrating is that while T-Sons in older editions were restricted by the mentality that there shouldn't be psyker spam (this is pre-5th edition GK codex), recent codexes basically gave it to other factions when T-Sons were the original Psyker-spam army. Plus I think it salts the wound more when Deathguard got a whole slew of new toys (even considering the tzaangors and terminators, Death Guard still have more in the form of two new tanks and the drone) but T-Sons only got a reboxing of some old AoS junk no one remembered existed.
Agreed and exalted.
I don't mind not having new models as much as a proper codex TS representation but models-wise you are totally right...
- Death Guard: 18 separate boxes + Dark Imperium models (Those all are in total 61 different models: 1 primarch, 10 characters, 4 vehicles, 11 terminators, 19 plague marines and 16 plague zombies)
- Thousand Sons: 6 separate boxes (Those are 30 different models: 1 primarch, 4 characters, 5 terminators, 10 rubric marines and 10 tzaangors) (Tzaangors box is debatable because it is actualy intended for not-fantasy)
2 x number of different models and 3 x number of separate boxes released.
Best part of this is that as people is saying right now, because the TS range is "complete", we won't see anything for them in 10+ years and everybody will be happy...
So... yeah
MinscS2 wrote: Let's be real here for a second. Thousand Sons were one of the weakest legions in the 3.5 codex. (I started playing them back then. Mostly because of the model's, less for the competitive rules.)
Speaking for myself, i really don't care about rules power. Otherwise i would not be playing with this army since 3rd edition. I play or collect them because their background and in a lesser degree their models. I was not playing in 7th edition but as i understand, they should be powerful then and it seems that many people jumped to the TS without really caring or knowing very much about fluff or anything else but the rules... Maybe that explain why there are all those strange opinions of "it doesn't matter, you have a lot of new models and options!!"
Then 3.5 came and again we had some ok ish Tsons units,the Book of Tzeench had some really cool fluffy options and that tiny little thing had a lot more effort put into it than the entire new codex.
then the dark times of chaos came........ book after book GW messed up chaos, people at the time said they were fine, said things were not as bad as we thought, said that we were overreacting and be happy with what we got........ yeah, sounds familiar doesnt it
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: I still remember when T-Sons were a strong contender when Rubrics had 2 wounds a piece (and back then invul saves, FnP, and even instant death were all VERY rare) and the sorceror didn't cost as much as a naked chaos lord. Hell even the 3rd edition T-Sons were a force to be reckoned with, as they were flat out immune to S5 weapons if I remember correctly. And that was just their basic troops.
What's more frustrating is that while T-Sons in older editions were restricted by the mentality that there shouldn't be psyker spam (this is pre-5th edition GK codex), recent codexes basically gave it to other factions when T-Sons were the original Psyker-spam army. Plus I think it salts the wound more when Deathguard got a whole slew of new toys (even considering the tzaangors and terminators, Death Guard still have more in the form of two new tanks and the drone) but T-Sons only got a reboxing of some old AoS junk no one remembered existed.
3E Rubrics were immune to S4 and under...
I do miss that dex a bit, I ran a full Slaanesh list back then, do hope if EC show up we'll get some nice stuff.
Ah I tripped over my tongue there. I meant to say immune to "S5 or lower" weapons, but I must have misremembered it including S5 as well. I think it was due to the old Grotesques having the similar rule "cannot be killed except by things that inflict instant death", which made them only affected by S6+ weapons. My bad.
- Death Guard: 18 separate boxes + Dark Imperium models (Those all are in total 61 different models: 1 primarch, 10 characters, 4 vehicles, 11 terminators, 19 plague marines and 16 plague zombies)
- Thousand Sons: 6 separate boxes (Those are 30 different models: 1 primarch, 4 characters, 5 terminators, 10 rubric marines and 10 tzaangors) (Tzaangors box is debatable because it is actualy intended for not-fantasy)
2 x number of different models and 3 x number of separate boxes released.
Best part of this is that as people is saying right now, because the TS range is "complete", we won't see anything for them in 10+ years and everybody will be happy...
We're all very aware. But we also understand that there is a limited window for model releases and there is no wayGW was going to be able to expand TS the same way as DG at this point in time.
DG got lucky to be the poster boy bad guy of the edition. Regardless we got a decent book and it's time to move on with out lives while we wait for things to shake out further.
If we need to fight for 16 point Rubrics and 5 man soulreapers then we do that. But this thread needs to die, because it's like listening to Tina Belcher moan at this point.
if Thousand Sons did not have the VOTLW rule, and instead had a stratagem called "Inferno Bolt Firestorm" that read "1CP: in the shooting phase, one unit's Inferno Bolters, Warpflamers, Heavy Warpflamers, Soulreaper Cannons, and Hellfyre Missile racks get +1 to wound rolls for the phase"...would you be happier?
Or how about if the Mutalith Beast was instead a new Thousand Sons specific Daemon Engine using a reboxed Fantasy Necrosphinx?
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: What's more frustrating is that while T-Sons in older editions were restricted by the mentality that there shouldn't be psyker spam (this is pre-5th edition GK codex), recent codexes basically gave it to other factions when T-Sons were the original Psyker-spam army. Plus I think it salts the wound more when Deathguard got a whole slew of new toys (even considering the tzaangors and terminators, Death Guard still have more in the form of two new tanks and the drone) but T-Sons only got a reboxing of some old AoS junk no one remembered existed.
Agreed and exalted.
I don't mind not having new models as much as a proper codex TS representation but models-wise you are totally right...
- Death Guard: 18 separate boxes + Dark Imperium models (Those all are in total 61 different models: 1 primarch, 10 characters, 4 vehicles, 11 terminators, 19 plague marines and 16 plague zombies)
- Thousand Sons: 6 separate boxes (Those are 30 different models: 1 primarch, 4 characters, 5 terminators, 10 rubric marines and 10 tzaangors) (Tzaangors box is debatable because it is actualy intended for not-fantasy)
2 x number of different models and 3 x number of separate boxes released.
Best part of this is that as people is saying right now, because the TS range is "complete", we won't see anything for them in 10+ years and everybody will be happy...
Which they attempted to address by giving some of the AoS gor stuff a port to 40k, as between filling out custodes to a proper army, DG being a new faction, and imperial space marines getting their ever constant release, things were a bit tight. That's while ignoring the AoS and daemons releases which are occurring. Plus whatever is coming late spring/early summer. The release schedule is a bit tight, a lot of armies got nothing new.
Guys, all you have to do to understand why TS didn't get new Rubrics is look at the timeframe. A production cycle is about 2-3 years. The new TS kits are a year old right? That means GW would have had to start designing new kits as soon as they finished the other ones to even possibly get them ready by now. But that would slow down progress on other lines that they needed/wanted to work on. Saying "GW could have easily added a kit or two" is actually false because they physically couldn't fit them in the schedule at all. Instead, they gave you more Tzaangors to help diversify your lists (if you want them).
You're just victims of production constraints, not malice or neglect on GW's part. Comparing yourselves to Primaris, Death Guard and Custodes is disingenuous because no one else got any new kits. GW were maxed out.
Pointing this out does not mean people are actively trying to hamstring TS, nor are they defending GW intentionally screwing over a faction. The fact that Primaris were overcosted means that the design team makes honest mistakes, which is probably what happened to Rubrics.
You can still think it sucks and it probably does, but you won't get any sympathy from other players because they have their own problems to deal with.
if Thousand Sons did not have the VOTLW rule, and instead had a stratagem called "Inferno Bolt Firestorm" that read "1CP: in the shooting phase, one unit's Inferno Bolters, Warpflamers, Heavy Warpflamers, Soulreaper Cannons, and Hellfyre Missile racks get +1 to wound rolls for the phase"...would you be happier?
Or how about if the Mutalith Beast was instead a new Thousand Sons specific Daemon Engine using a reboxed Fantasy Necrosphinx?
Since VotLW was already in the wild and expected it would have to be something different. +1 damage or w/e.
I'm reasonably happy. I would have liked more, but there's enough to keep me busy.
if Thousand Sons did not have the VOTLW rule, and instead had a stratagem called "Inferno Bolt Firestorm" that read "1CP: in the shooting phase, one unit's Inferno Bolters, Warpflamers, Heavy Warpflamers, Soulreaper Cannons, and Hellfyre Missile racks get +1 to wound rolls for the phase"...would you be happier?
Or how about if the Mutalith Beast was instead a new Thousand Sons specific Daemon Engine using a reboxed Fantasy Necrosphinx?
I would actually be up a wall in happiness if the latter was the case. Thousand Sons were known to have automata back on prospero and having a daemon engine simulacra, especially one of a set that was already incorporated into a lot of T-Sons conversions, would have been awesome.
However this would differ from the mutalith beast in that the Necrosphinx would need, at the very least, a sprue recut since spoopy scary skeletons aren't on the menu. Still, it would slide much better since it at least showed an effort to keep it T-Sons, rather than "Generic Tzeentch Marine Army 3506"
- Death Guard: 18 separate boxes + Dark Imperium models (Those all are in total 61 different models: 1 primarch, 10 characters, 4 vehicles, 11 terminators, 19 plague marines and 16 plague zombies)
- Thousand Sons: 6 separate boxes (Those are 30 different models: 1 primarch, 4 characters, 5 terminators, 10 rubric marines and 10 tzaangors) (Tzaangors box is debatable because it is actualy intended for not-fantasy)
2 x number of different models and 3 x number of separate boxes released.
Best part of this is that as people is saying right now, because the TS range is "complete", we won't see anything for them in 10+ years and everybody will be happy...
We're all very aware. But we also understand that there is a limited window for model releases and there is no wayGW was going to be able to expand TS the same way as DG at this point in time.
DG got lucky to be the poster boy bad guy of the edition. Regardless we got a decent book and it's time to move on with out lives while we wait for things to shake out further.
If we need to fight for 16 point Rubrics and 5 man soulreapers then we do that. But this thread needs to die, because it's like listening to Tina Belcher moan at this point.
Rulewise? ofc not.
Because that strat is a clear downgrade of the VOTLW that was rather obivous we're supposed to get, and that new engine is still only supporting the gors.
Modelwise, yes, a bit.
Pleasing us, rule wise, would have been really easy even without models.
Yea, with even a tiny bit of models they could have made us bliss, but making us happy really took little, and didn't even require the sigmar model ports.
Had the mutalit been decent at supporting dust units, it would have been good-but they only support gors.
If there were good strats for dusts it would be nice, but the only dust-only strat is really bad, the "turn to rust" one is also horrible and everything else is either directly related to mutants, or just better for than than to the dusts.
The resons why we are upset can be sorted into the following, at least for the reasonable expectation players:
1-the stratagems, relics, and other support mechanics actually support a gor army, rather than a dust army.
The best stratagems, webway infiltration and cycle of slaughter. one is gor exclusive, another works better for gors than anyone else. then you got some "PA sons" strats who are just outright bad.
The inferno bolt stratagem should have effect all relevant guns on the model rather than just one (even then its iffy), the soul flare should have been a 2+ rather than a 4+ to be noteworthy and beam...given only the warlord can even use it shouuld also probably trigger at 2+ (and 4+ on characters) the mutants, on the other end, gets the best CC start in the game (2 cp attack twice)
The relics, lets just say are not a good work. the helm and crystal are great, but the 3 weapons are rather poor (especially the staff, why on earth would you care about disengaging and shooting/charging with a sorcerer?) and the scrolls from CA are still worthless.
The mutalit buffs are good for gors, not for dusts. the gors also got exclusive aura from shamans. spells also effect them better due to numbers rule. etc.
2-the spells the dust units DID get, are not spells they actually want. each of them is bad (firestorm), good only when used on someone else (doombolt), or best when used by someone else (everything else), with the few spells that would actually be good for them well locked in the other disciplines. so, if you got more than 2-3 dust squads, you quickly run out of spells to give them.
Couple it with the fact they did nothing to help them mitigate the massive danger that is perils for them (other than having magnus around I guess), and they are still not going to cast all that often-its too risky for too little gain.
3-the dust units got 0 intresting rules, and the prexistance of such rules is already in 30k, and had a hint of it in 7th. they could EASILY port some version of the "thousand sons cults"
For example they could introduce cults by having our aura HQs (magnus, ahriman, dp and exalted) project one of five auras depending on cult.
Easy cults: corvidate rr1 hits even if only at shooting, raptora rr1 invul, athenean a LD boost of sorts, pyrae something to support flamers (gun range boost for example, effecting all guns to be less one-dimentinal), pavoni something to boost CC (+S? +A? both as actual rubrics suck at CC?). lets say magnus gets them all because he's magnus (instead of his current aura, as awesome it is), and costs more to compensate. ahriman naturally locked into corvidae
That's just one example of many. its flavorful, it gives multiple "leader" a reason to exist, and it allows for different types of lists. you might need to bump a few point costs up to correlate for the choice, and maybe look out for the possibility of combining them getting out of hand-but that's balancing issues not concepts issues and its not like other armies don't have multiple auras
They could have told FW to do a simul-release of a dataslate for orisons to get us psyker dreadnauts that they KNEW we wanted for a long time, it would cost them nothing, not even book space, and it would make people happy even if the dataslate wasn't very good.
They could make a spin-off of some model (probably the exalted) that is easily converted like they did the grandmaster dreadknight. ESPECIALLY the exalteds, given how they are sold in packs of 3 and its currently insane to even consider having 3.
There are MANY ways they could make the PA side of the codex more interesting and engaging rulewise without needing any new models. it took me all of five minutes to come up with the random nonsense I wrote here. a team that's actually his work and got himself a few hours to work on the codex can easily come up with more and better.
4-the legion tactic itself, is poor. really poor.
It doesn't come up often to begin with, and it provides zero "numerical advantage", just a minor tactical one.
To make it worse, many units dont even CARE about the tactic. its bad for all marines that all the armor devision is basically identical regardless of what legion you are, but for TS even the cultists and helbrute are identical to generic <whatever> ones without any trait.
The only reason why gors are taken as TS, is because they have to be. the legion tactics don't even effect them. they could be a part of a generic <chaos> dethachment and be mechanically identical, so beisdes being given the keyword-how are they thousand sons?
The tactic should have effected more widely, even something as silly as "6+ invul if oyu dont have one" at least would salvage helbrutes and cultists from being irrelevant-they wouldn't be good, but they would have a reason. 6+ versus mortal wounds in the psyker phase (the very thing custodians got as part of thier tactics) would also been a good option-it helps protect against perils, and expands on the psyker dominance by the fact using magic against them isn't as useful.
The list goes infinitly on for minor things they could have done to make the non-casters actually be TS rather than generic <chaos> dudes as far as rules are bothered. even something tiny that's practically a sidenote and might never come up would feel better than nothing at all.
But the current trait means that if you don't cast-you got no trait. if you are in range anyway-you got no trait.
These are the four points that ACTUALLY bother the TS playerbase.
They can be summed up in that it mostly reeks of laziness and pushing the ported AoS line rather than doing anything for the existing TS.
The army list for the "most competetive" TS builds shapes up to look like princes for HQs, gors for troops, bowgors for FA, mutalits for HS and not a single dude in PA/termi to be seen-except MAYBE ahriman or a one-of termi sorcerer.
And not because we all love the goats so much, but beacuse the entire codex is geared towards making them good, while giving barely any attention to dusts.
Dandelion wrote: Guys, all you have to do to understand why TS didn't get new Rubrics is look at the timeframe. A production cycle is about 2-3 years. The new TS kits are a year old right? That means GW would have had to start designing new kits as soon as they finished the other ones to even possibly get them ready by now. But that would slow down progress on other lines that they needed/wanted to work on. Saying "GW could have easily added a kit or two" is actually false because they physically couldn't fit them in the schedule at all. Instead, they gave you more Tzaangors to help diversify your lists (if you want them).
You're just victims of production constraints, not malice or neglect on GW's part. Comparing yourselves to Primaris, Death Guard and Custodes is disingenuous because no one else got any new kits. GW were maxed out.
Pointing this out does not mean people are actively trying to hamstring TS, nor are they defending GW intentionally screwing over a faction. The fact that Primaris were overcosted means that the design team makes honest mistakes, which is probably what happened to Rubrics.
You can still think it sucks and it probably does, but you won't get any sympathy from other players because they have their own problems to deal with.
You are right, models take time to make etc. Now watch this
Heavy support:
Rubricai havoc squad
Unit 4-9 rubric marines, 1 aspiring sorcerer
Options: up to 4 rubric marines may take, heavy bolter with inferno bolts, autocannons, lascannons etc.
Elites:
Rubric special weapon squad
Up to 4 rubric marines
Etc. Etc.
So with no effort at all, I've just make the 1 existing kit fill 3 different roles in the army, no model cycle involved, no new kits needed.
Because that strat is a clear downgrade of the VOTLW that was rather obivous we're supposed to get, and that new engine is still only supporting the gors.
Modelwise, yes, a bit.
Absolutely agreed. You only have to look at the disparity between an exalted and a DP.
1-the stratagems, relics, and other support mechanics actually support a gor army, rather than a dust army.
I still think this is a perception thing. The strats support rubrics as much as gors and it's a choice between melee vs ranged; durable vs plentiful.
Cycle of Slaughter is indeed a boneheaded addition, but it's a matter opinion on Webway being "better for gors".
The relics, lets just say are not a good work. the helm and crystal are great, but the 3 weapons are rather poor (especially the staff, why on earth would you care about disengaging and shooting/charging with a sorcerer?) and the scrolls from CA are still worthless.
I would like to see them make the SoT sorc a character and give him the staff and have it affect the whole unit, but that is a pipe dream.
The mutalit buffs are good for gors, not for dusts. the gors also got exclusive aura from shamans. spells also effect them better due to numbers rule. etc.
Mostly, yes, but I can see a lot of mileage on SoT, too. Gors get that bonus, but now you're cluttering your list with 2 or 3 shamans that don't fill HQ to make them operate and you can't deepstrike a shaman so any Webway gors are unable to alpha strike properly.
2-the spells the dust units DID get, are not spells they actually want. each of them is bad (firestorm), good only when used on someone else (doombolt), or best when used by someone else (everything else), with the few spells that would actually be good for them well locked in the other disciplines. so, if you got more than 2-3 dust squads, you quickly run out of spells to give them.
Couple it with the fact they did nothing to help them mitigate the massive danger that is perils for them (other than having magnus around I guess), and they are still not going to cast all that often-its too risky for too little gain.
I'm a little torn. People like to rag on Firestorm, but a 24" character snipe is pretty damn good. Yes, they're going to be hard to cast, but if you need to cast warptime, prescience, heal, and -1 to hit every turn that's two exalteds or DPs right there. THEN you need to cast smite, doombolt, and firestorm...where do those come from? Even if you fail it's worth a go and i'm not going to sweat a ~6% perils.
could have told FW to do a simul-release of a dataslate for orisons to get us psyker dreadnauts that they KNEW we wanted for a long time, it would cost them nothing,
Sure and it could still happen. That's FW's job to figure out.
4-the legion tactic itself, is poor. really poor.
It doesn't come up often to begin with, and it provides zero "numerical advantage", just a minor tactical one.
To make it worse, many units dont even CARE about the tactic. its bad for all marines that all the armor devision is basically identical regardless of what legion you are, but for TS even the cultists and helbrute are identical to generic <whatever> ones without any trait.
The only reason why gors are taken as TS, is because they have to be. the legion tactics don't even effect them. they could be a part of a generic <chaos> dethachment and be mechanically identical, so beisdes being given the keyword-how are they thousand sons?
The tactic should have effected more widely, even something as silly as "6+ invul if oyu dont have one" at least would salvage helbrutes and cultists from being irrelevant-they wouldn't be good, but they would have a reason. 6+ versus mortal wounds in the psyker phase (the very thing custodians got as part of thier tactics) would also been a good option-it helps protect against perils, and expands on the psyker dominance by the fact using magic against them isn't as useful.
It's really strong. Just because it doesn't affect everything doesn't make it poor. A 6++ would have affected very little anyway (Preds, Rhinos, Land Raiders, Cultists) - most everything has a ward already.
The army list for the "most competetive" TS builds shapes up to look like princes for HQs, gors for troops, bowgors for FA, mutalits for HS and not a single dude in PA/termi to be seen-except MAYBE ahriman or a one-of termi sorcerer.
Doubtfully, but time will tell. If I have any major criticism it's that exalteds only exist for when you don't have points for a DP.
Dandelion wrote: Guys, all you have to do to understand why TS didn't get new Rubrics is look at the timeframe. A production cycle is about 2-3 years. The new TS kits are a year old right? That means GW would have had to start designing new kits as soon as they finished the other ones to even possibly get them ready by now. But that would slow down progress on other lines that they needed/wanted to work on. Saying "GW could have easily added a kit or two" is actually false because they physically couldn't fit them in the schedule at all. Instead, they gave you more Tzaangors to help diversify your lists (if you want them).
You're just victims of production constraints, not malice or neglect on GW's part. Comparing yourselves to Primaris, Death Guard and Custodes is disingenuous because no one else got any new kits. GW were maxed out.
Pointing this out does not mean people are actively trying to hamstring TS, nor are they defending GW intentionally screwing over a faction. The fact that Primaris were overcosted means that the design team makes honest mistakes, which is probably what happened to Rubrics.
You can still think it sucks and it probably does, but you won't get any sympathy from other players because they have their own problems to deal with.
You are right, models take time to make etc. Now watch this
Heavy support:
Rubricai havoc squad
Unit 4-9 rubric marines, 1 aspiring sorcerer
Options: up to 4 rubric marines may take, heavy bolter with inferno bolts, autocannons, lascannons etc.
Elites:
Rubric special weapon squad
Up to 4 rubric marines
Etc. Etc.
So with no effort at all, I've just make the 1 existing kit fill 3 different roles in the army, no model cycle involved, no new kits needed.
That would have been ideal. But all evidence pointed agaisnt that possibility. I don't know why people even had hope for something like that. It goes agaisnt everything GW has done for 8th.
I don't know, expecting something that is nearly impossible to happen, just to be dissapointed about it after it, as expected, doesn't happens, is a little... pointless?
You are right, models take time to make etc. Now watch this
Heavy support:
Rubricai havoc squad
Unit 4-9 rubric marines, 1 aspiring sorcerer
Options: up to 4 rubric marines may take, heavy bolter with inferno bolts, autocannons, lascannons etc.
Elites:
Rubric special weapon squad
Up to 4 rubric marines
Etc. Etc.
So with no effort at all, I've just make the 1 existing kit fill 3 different roles in the army, no model cycle involved, no new kits needed.
Where are the sprues for those weapons that fit the new Thousand Sons scale?
But the Rubric kit doesn't have autocannons, lascannons etc... They only have a soulreaper. So, no havocs.
Not sure what the special weapon squad would have. All flamers? That's not that useful.
Remember, you're still stuck with the no model-no rules problem, so kitbashing is out of the question.
Rubric special weapons squad? You mean a unit of rubrics holding only soulreaper cannons, yes? Because that's the only special weapon you can't already take on everybody. You really think people would be OK with the idea of having to buy 200 dollars of rubrics to get enough soulreapers to make a single squad of 5 with a sorc? You don't think that would be decried as lazy?
Rubric devastators: I guess. Both of these ideas seem to be lazier than doing a full port of the tzaangor models, to be honest.
As to your critique of the army trait...I mean, I guess I just have to laugh, because if you field an army of pure rubrics/SOTs like you say that you want to...it DOES affect every unit in the army. Conversely when you bring loads of gor units/cultists/spawns like you're complaining about...then it's a much weaker trait. Admittedly, I've only tried the new stuff in one game, but the increased range came up for me multiple times every turn of the game, and if I'd been smarter with it (i.e. remembering that my jump sorc can now be 9" away from my tzaangor squad to cast warptime, and that I could have stuck him in a safer spot) then it would have been even more useful. As it was, I was able to have Ahriman smacking people with powers from a much safer range while still staying with my pred, helbrute and rubric squad with his new to-hit aura, and I was able to get an immense amount of use from the SOT and Rubric squads having their own powers (which remember they only get if they're Thousand Sons rubrics, so you may as well count it as a part of the army trait).
You can argue that Gors make the best use out of VOTLW (though I might have to contest that WRT Scarab Occult, who definitely pack more punch with it on a turn where they can warptime, shoot, and charge) but it's still an incredibly useful offensive stratagem when used by a rubric squad, as wounding a target is really the only thing they struggle with.
You are right, models take time to make etc. Now watch this
Heavy support:
Rubricai havoc squad
Unit 4-9 rubric marines, 1 aspiring sorcerer
Options: up to 4 rubric marines may take, heavy bolter with inferno bolts, autocannons, lascannons etc.
Elites:
Rubric special weapon squad
Up to 4 rubric marines
Etc. Etc.
So with no effort at all, I've just make the 1 existing kit fill 3 different roles in the army, no model cycle involved, no new kits needed.
Where are the sprues for those weapons that fit the new Thousand Sons scale?
There you go, that was difficult, oh and the heresy era weapons fit the Tsons very well and very easily.
As I said before, 3 roles, already existing kits, little effort involved.
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Dandelion wrote: But the Rubric kit doesn't have autocannons, lascannons etc... They only have a soulreaper. So, no havocs.
Not sure what the special weapon squad would have. All flamers? That's not that useful.
Remember, you're still stuck with the no model-no rules problem, so kitbashing is out of the question.
We have the weapons, Forge world makes them, and GW makes the Havoc upgrade kit, not even a plastic one, so "no model, no rules" does not apply to the heavy weapons, just pure laziness from the design team, or at least thats the image they are putting out :/
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: Rubric special weapons squad? You mean a unit of rubrics holding only soulreaper cannons, yes? Because that's the only special weapon you can't already take on everybody. You really think people would be OK with the idea of having to buy 200 dollars of rubrics to get enough soulreapers to make a single squad of 5 with a sorc? You don't think that would be decried as lazy?
Rubric devastators: I guess. Both of these ideas seem to be lazier than doing a full port of the tzaangor models, to be honest.
As to your critique of the army trait...I mean, I guess I just have to laugh, because if you field an army of pure rubrics/SOTs like you say that you want to...it DOES affect every unit in the army. Conversely when you bring loads of gor units/cultists/spawns like you're complaining about...then it's a much weaker trait. Admittedly, I've only tried the new stuff in one game, but the increased range came up for me multiple times every turn of the game, and if I'd been smarter with it (i.e. remembering that my jump sorc can now be 9" away from my tzaangor squad to cast warptime, and that I could have stuck him in a safer spot) then it would have been even more useful. As it was, I was able to have Ahriman smacking people with powers from a much safer range while still staying with my pred, helbrute and rubric squad with his new to-hit aura, and I was able to get an immense amount of use from the SOT and Rubric squads having their own powers (which remember they only get if they're Thousand Sons rubrics, so you may as well count it as a part of the army trait).
You can argue that Gors make the best use out of VOTLW (though I might have to contest that WRT Scarab Occult, who definitely pack more punch with it on a turn where they can warptime, shoot, and charge) but it's still an incredibly useful offensive stratagem when used by a rubric squad, as wounding a target is really the only thing they struggle with.
Forge world makes the weapons, so no, they would have access to all the usual weapons, plasma, flamer etc. it would essentially be a Tsons version of the hellblaster squad, which is a special weapon squad.
Rubric devs shoud have already been an option, I have said multiple times in this thread, start with the basics, then build from there, Tsons lacks even the basic units that they should have access to, and even though I like Tzaangors, its just as lazy to just throw across units from a different game and claim they are new units, especially the mutalith vortex beast, thats here nor there to me though, I like the addition of Tzangors.
To the rest of your reply, I am ignoring it as I dont think its aimed at me, since I havent mentioned any of it.
Dandelion wrote: Guys, all you have to do to understand why TS didn't get new Rubrics is look at the timeframe. A production cycle is about 2-3 years. The new TS kits are a year old right? That means GW would have had to start designing new kits as soon as they finished the other ones to even possibly get them ready by now. But that would slow down progress on other lines that they needed/wanted to work on. Saying "GW could have easily added a kit or two" is actually false because they physically couldn't fit them in the schedule at all. Instead, they gave you more Tzaangors to help diversify your lists (if you want them).
You're just victims of production constraints, not malice or neglect on GW's part. Comparing yourselves to Primaris, Death Guard and Custodes is disingenuous because no one else got any new kits. GW were maxed out.
Pointing this out does not mean people are actively trying to hamstring TS, nor are they defending GW intentionally screwing over a faction. The fact that Primaris were overcosted means that the design team makes honest mistakes, which is probably what happened to Rubrics.
You can still think it sucks and it probably does, but you won't get any sympathy from other players because they have their own problems to deal with.
You are right, models take time to make etc. Now watch this
Heavy support:
Rubricai havoc squad
Unit 4-9 rubric marines, 1 aspiring sorcerer
Options: up to 4 rubric marines may take, heavy bolter with inferno bolts, autocannons, lascannons etc.
Elites:
Rubric special weapon squad
Up to 4 rubric marines
Etc. Etc.
So with no effort at all, I've just make the 1 existing kit fill 3 different roles in the army, no model cycle involved, no new kits needed.
That would have been ideal. But all evidence pointed agaisnt that possibility. I don't know why people even had hope for something like that. It goes agaisnt everything GW has done for 8th.
I don't know, expecting something that is nearly impossible to happen, just to be dissapointed about it after it, as expected, doesn't happens, is a little... pointless?
You misunderstand Galas, I was not expecting these units, because I know GW has a pretty bad design team (opinion) and the no models no rules policy, and its not pointless, it lets people express their frustrations and have a discussion about it, when others dismiss those frustrations with calls of "whinging" of other things it compounds the issue.
So realistically I knew GW would not give the Tsons the focus they needed, but this doesnt stop me from expressing my wish for said units.
Up to 4 Rubric Marines take that gattling cannon thingy. 1 Sorceror to grant them rerolls I guess (possibly his unique psychic power or some buff, idunno). Heavy Support. Counterpart to the Havocs.
Rehati War Coven Squad:
3-10 Sorcerors. Comes in three flavours: Power armor Elites, Terminator HS, and Disc-riding Fast attack. The Elites version can cast powers easier and cast spells that others have already attempted. The Terminator ones can cast Smite with modified stats to fit either anti-horde or anti vehicle. The Disc-riding ones are just normal casters, but in exchange are an entire unit of force weapon-wielding flankers (that can potentially buff themselves). The First is Elites, Corresponds to Chosen. The second are HS, corresponds to Centurions or Obliterators. The third are Fast Attack, obviously bikers.
If they reeeeeeally need a new set for any of this, probably 1 set of 3 snap-fit Scarab Occult Terminators (that, as a bonus, can double as Terminator lords too). But I agree with Formosa in that it's not that hard to come up with new unit entries, and that's not even including the fact that you could get new sculpts too (even if they're just easy to build ones like the Blight Hauler. T-Sons Automata anyone?).
Also for people thinking I'm ragging on the Death Guard just because they got the fancy new toys. Look at my avatar and title. I have over 100 plague marines now and I am loving the sets, which is why I feel T-Sons got the short end of the stick since they deserved just as much (and when the World Eaters and Emperor's Children version comes and falls short, I will champion them as well).
Dandelion wrote: But the Rubric kit doesn't have autocannons, lascannons etc... They only have a soulreaper. So, no havocs.
Not sure what the special weapon squad would have. All flamers? That's not that useful.
Remember, you're still stuck with the no model-no rules problem, so kitbashing is out of the question.
We have the weapons, Forge world makes them, and GW makes the Havoc upgrade kit, not even a plastic one, so "no model, no rules" does not apply to the heavy weapons, just pure laziness from the design team, or at least thats the image they are putting out :/
GW pretends FW doesn't exist when writing rules, so that's not going to happen. But if you ask FW yourself maybe they'll make rules for 40k rubric devastators. Would that help for the time being?
Dandelion wrote: But the Rubric kit doesn't have autocannons, lascannons etc... They only have a soulreaper. So, no havocs.
Not sure what the special weapon squad would have. All flamers? That's not that useful.
Remember, you're still stuck with the no model-no rules problem, so kitbashing is out of the question.
We have the weapons, Forge world makes them, and GW makes the Havoc upgrade kit, not even a plastic one, so "no model, no rules" does not apply to the heavy weapons, just pure laziness from the design team, or at least thats the image they are putting out :/
GW pretends FW doesn't exist when writing rules, so that's not going to happen. But if you ask FW yourself maybe they'll make rules for 40k rubric devastators. Would that help for the time being?
Of course, I'm not unreasonable lol.
I also forgot to mention that of course, gw makes the weapons too, little more conversion needed but still very easy to do
Dandelion wrote: But the Rubric kit doesn't have autocannons, lascannons etc... They only have a soulreaper. So, no havocs.
Not sure what the special weapon squad would have. All flamers? That's not that useful.
Remember, you're still stuck with the no model-no rules problem, so kitbashing is out of the question.
We have the weapons, Forge world makes them, and GW makes the Havoc upgrade kit, not even a plastic one, so "no model, no rules" does not apply to the heavy weapons, just pure laziness from the design team, or at least thats the image they are putting out :/
GW pretends FW doesn't exist when writing rules, so that's not going to happen. But if you ask FW yourself maybe they'll make rules for 40k rubric devastators. Would that help for the time being?
Of course, I'm not unreasonable lol.
I also forgot to mention that of course, gw makes the weapons too, little more conversion needed but still very easy to do
GW is trying to make the game beginner friendly, hence the no model-no rules. If you are required to convert something to work then it's not going to happen, regardless of how easy it is. It's just a tight spot that we're in. This current design philosophy invalidated lots of cool stuff and it will take a while for new kits to be made so that we can get them again.
I see a lot of you talking about different gun options and while i agree it would be nice to have some more gun options other than bolter or flamer to gain some variety but I didn't really picked up a TS army for the shooting options.
I picked up a TS because i wanted to blast everything with psychic powers but see no reason why TS is better than any other army. Yeah, we get 1 strategem but we also get the 2 of only WC9 powers in game (which imho aren't that much better than any other power).
Am i the only one that feels the same way? An aspiring sorcerer can now cast a "normal" power but without any help they continue to be more of a liability than a asset when you used up the re-roll.
Also the Exalted Sorcerers just makes me want to cry. Why would i pay extra for a WS2+ model with a pistol with a extra wound that 90% of the time cannot be targeted anyway ? Granted the re-roll 1 to hit aura can be semi-useful in shooting/assault but how does that help a sorcerer ?
How does that help a when you build your army around psykers?
I got me thinking this codex would be 4 times for me if the exalted (and Ahriman) had the re-roll 1 on psychic test aura. Finally a unique touch on these models and it would instantly solve 75% of my issues with aspiring/scarab sorcerers.
No more suicide bombing on snake eyes AND it would help just that tiny extra bit in trying to cast those WC7+ powers. At the same time the sorcerer himself would benefit greatly from it too. Leaving him a much better choice to use as psychic caster.
Dandelion wrote: But the Rubric kit doesn't have autocannons, lascannons etc... They only have a soulreaper. So, no havocs.
Not sure what the special weapon squad would have. All flamers? That's not that useful.
Remember, you're still stuck with the no model-no rules problem, so kitbashing is out of the question.
We have the weapons, Forge world makes them, and GW makes the Havoc upgrade kit, not even a plastic one, so "no model, no rules" does not apply to the heavy weapons, just pure laziness from the design team, or at least thats the image they are putting out :/
GW pretends FW doesn't exist when writing rules, so that's not going to happen. But if you ask FW yourself maybe they'll make rules for 40k rubric devastators. Would that help for the time being?
Of course, I'm not unreasonable lol.
I also forgot to mention that of course, gw makes the weapons too, little more conversion needed but still very easy to do
GW is trying to make the game beginner friendly, hence the no model-no rules. If you are required to convert something to work then it's not going to happen, regardless of how easy it is. It's just a tight spot that we're in. This current design philosophy invalidated lots of cool stuff and it will take a while for new kits to be made so that we can get them again.
see this is why I think the designers are incompetent or at the very least dont know their own product range, in order to take advantage of a lot of ranges, you MUST convert them, there are no plastic havocs so we must convert some using the upgrade sets, in EXACTLY the same manner as the HH ones.
Just a quick google search shows that GW wants you to convert stuff, but doesnt... but does..... ergh.
I just wish as a community we could all get together on just one message, not chaos stuff, not make this or make that, just a simple
Zhan wrote: I see a lot of you talking about different gun options and while i agree it would be nice to have some more gun options other than bolter or flamer to gain some variety but I didn't really picked up a TS army for the shooting options.
I picked up a TS because i wanted to blast everything with psychic powers but see no reason why TS is better than any other army. Yeah, we get 1 strategem but we also get the 2 of only WC9 powers in game (which imho aren't that much better than any other power).
Am i the only one that feels the same way? An aspiring sorcerer can now cast a "normal" power but without any help they continue to be more of a liability than a asset when you used up the re-roll.
Also the Exalted Sorcerers just makes me want to cry. Why would i pay extra for a WS2+ model with a pistol with a extra wound that 90% of the time cannot be targeted anyway ? Granted the re-roll 1 to hit aura can be semi-useful in shooting/assault but how does that help a sorcerer ?
How does that help a when you build your army around psykers?
I got me thinking this codex would be 4 times for me if the exalted (and Ahriman) had the re-roll 1 on psychic test aura. Finally a unique touch on these models and it would instantly solve 75% of my issues with aspiring/scarab sorcerers.
No more suicide bombing on snake eyes AND it would help just that tiny extra bit in trying to cast those WC7+ powers. At the same time the sorcerer himself would benefit greatly from it too. Leaving him a much better choice to use as psychic caster.
I think there is some potential for running Ahriman as a psychic murder machine, blowing up the brains of enemy characters. Give him Tzeentch's Firestorm, Doombolt, and Infernal Gaze (switching one of these to Gift of Chaos in t3 matchups if you prefer) and with a total 36" threat range he should have decent odds of popping a 4 wound character every turn. Needs some testing but I'm definitely going to try it out.
The exalt gets -2AP on his pistol, +1BS, WS, A, and W, and gets a reroll 1s to hit aura for 21pts.
That's pretty good, the biggest question with them us actually why you wouldn't take Ahriman over the disc version for whatever it is, 11 points. But for me I can actually see 4 useful HQs: Ahriman, DP, Termie for DSing in, and foot exalt for being cheaper than Ahriman and still being able to cast the good gunline support powers.
Take DP for an amazing suicide bomb, Ahriman for an expensive does-it-all piece, Termie for DS support, Exalt for cheaper Ahriman substitute (better IMO when you're bringing the Termie to support deep strikers or forward troops.
DP/Ahriman, DP/Exalt, Exalt/Termie would all seem to be good battalion fillers.
Exalted suffer from paying for things they don't care about.
They don't care about WS or A, as you don't really want to enter CC.
They don't care quite as a prince would about W, because the moment the got shot something went wrong anyway.
The pistol is nothing to write home about. ditto the BS.
Basically, you are paying 21 points for the aura, and a bunch of stuff you don't really care for.
Now, if you don't have many princes around, the aura is useful. but if you got a whole bunch of princes anyway-less so.
if Thousand Sons did not have the VOTLW rule, and instead had a stratagem called "Inferno Bolt Firestorm" that read "1CP: in the shooting phase, one unit's Inferno Bolters, Warpflamers, Heavy Warpflamers, Soulreaper Cannons, and Hellfyre Missile racks get +1 to wound rolls for the phase"...would you be happier?
Or how about if the Mutalith Beast was instead a new Thousand Sons specific Daemon Engine using a reboxed Fantasy Necrosphinx?
Latter hell yes, former not really, if it was 1 additional shot without removing VotLW maybe. I was expecting something like the shoot bolters in CC as pistols thing.
BoomWolf wrote: Exalted suffer from paying for things they don't care about.
They don't care about WS or A, as you don't really want to enter CC.
They don't care quite as a prince would about W, because the moment the got shot something went wrong anyway.
The pistol is nothing to write home about. ditto the BS.
Basically, you are paying 21 points for the aura, and a bunch of stuff you don't really care for.
Now, if you don't have many princes around, the aura is useful. but if you got a whole bunch of princes anyway-less so.
it's more like if other legions (death guard or CSM really) had the option to upgrade a basic Lord to a 2-cast psyker and give him a force weapon for 47 points. To say nothing of the fact that he also gets access to Glamor, which pretty much any other csm player would happily take over the other DH powers for that kind of role.
You see naked captain-equivalents in plenty of competitive lists if they have a significant mechanized gunline component. Ours just brings psychic powers for a nominal fee, and is a little better than average at the "emergency close combat" role with his force staff.
I'm not sure where you guys are putting your daemon princes, but I usually find mine in the general area of way the frick over there, rampaging around enemy backlines with warptime and diabolic strength, making use of his 180 points of amazing melee stats, while my predators, rubrics, land raiders or whatever else needs a reroll 1s to hit aura is way the frick over here on my deployment edge.
if Thousand Sons did not have the VOTLW rule, and instead had a stratagem called "Inferno Bolt Firestorm" that read "1CP: in the shooting phase, one unit's Inferno Bolters, Warpflamers, Heavy Warpflamers, Soulreaper Cannons, and Hellfyre Missile racks get +1 to wound rolls for the phase"...would you be happier?
Or how about if the Mutalith Beast was instead a new Thousand Sons specific Daemon Engine using a reboxed Fantasy Necrosphinx?
Latter hell yes, former not really, if it was 1 additional shot without removing VotLW maybe. I was expecting something like the shoot bolters in CC as pistols thing.
I mean, good news on both fronts I guess. To accomplish the first thing you want, take a big blob of rubrics and the Dark Crystal relic. You don't even have to shoot the model that you were originally in combat with, or even be in the same neighborhood, and you can use VOTLW on top of it.
The gist of my question was more gauging whether you'd be happier having the same thing as VOTLW, but slightly worse as you couldn't use it on scarabs in melee, if it had the distinction that Tzaangors couldn't use it. Because it seems like a lot of your complaints revolve around the tool you were given being too versatile such that it could be used in a different way that you don't want to use it. This also seems to be your problem with the Deep Strike stratagem. I can totally understand the complaint with Soulflare (a power that only works when the unit you like dies is lame, and the fact that it's also pretty much terrible is doubly disappointing) and with the soulreaper nerf.
Fundamentally though, it's tough to argue that as of right now thousand sons dont have more to differentiate them than any other csm legion bar death guard at this point. Even just with 2 unique units, special princes, 2-3 stratagems, and their own psychic discipline.
Zhan wrote: I see a lot of you talking about different gun options and while i agree it would be nice to have some more gun options other than bolter or flamer to gain some variety but I didn't really picked up a TS army for the shooting options.
I picked up a TS because i wanted to blast everything with psychic powers but see no reason why TS is better than any other army. Yeah, we get 1 strategem but we also get the 2 of only WC9 powers in game (which imho aren't that much better than any other power).
Am i the only one that feels the same way? An aspiring sorcerer can now cast a "normal" power but without any help they continue to be more of a liability than a asset when you used up the re-roll.
Also the Exalted Sorcerers just makes me want to cry. Why would i pay extra for a WS2+ model with a pistol with a extra wound that 90% of the time cannot be targeted anyway ? Granted the re-roll 1 to hit aura can be semi-useful in shooting/assault but how does that help a sorcerer ?
How does that help a when you build your army around psykers?
I got me thinking this codex would be 4 times for me if the exalted (and Ahriman) had the re-roll 1 on psychic test aura. Finally a unique touch on these models and it would instantly solve 75% of my issues with aspiring/scarab sorcerers.
No more suicide bombing on snake eyes AND it would help just that tiny extra bit in trying to cast those WC7+ powers. At the same time the sorcerer himself would benefit greatly from it too. Leaving him a much better choice to use as psychic caster.
I think there is some potential for running Ahriman as a psychic murder machine, blowing up the brains of enemy characters. Give him Tzeentch's Firestorm, Doombolt, and Infernal Gaze (switching one of these to Gift of Chaos in t3 matchups if you prefer) and with a total 36" threat range he should have decent odds of popping a 4 wound character every turn. Needs some testing but I'm definitely going to try it out.
Ahriman is pretty good with his +1 but those 3 exalted sorcerer kits should have a center spot in our army. Not this maybe i'll bring one just to spam smite some more.
the_scotsman wrote:The exalt gets -2AP on his pistol, +1BS, WS, A, and W, and gets a reroll 1s to hit aura for 21pts.
That's pretty good, the biggest question with them us actually why you wouldn't take Ahriman over the disc version for whatever it is, 11 points. But for me I can actually see 4 useful HQs: Ahriman, DP, Termie for DSing in, and foot exalt for being cheaper than Ahriman and still being able to cast the good gunline support powers.
Take DP for an amazing suicide bomb, Ahriman for an expensive does-it-all piece, Termie for DS support, Exalt for cheaper Ahriman substitute (better IMO when you're bringing the Termie to support deep strikers or forward troops.
DP/Ahriman, DP/Exalt, Exalt/Termie would all seem to be good battalion fillers.
An exalted sorcerer is not suppose to be a buff bot for other units. Thousand sons are not suppose to be the same as blood angels or death guard who are shooting/CC based and use psychic powers to buff other units.
And ABOVE ALL ABSOLUTELY not battalion fillers!!! These are the most elite psykers of the TS legion, the survivors of the rubric spell who spend 10.000 years perfecting there psychic might. Not to be reduced to cheap fillers. That's what those tzaangor shamans are for.
BoomWolf wrote:Exalted suffer from paying for things they don't care about.
They don't care about WS or A, as you don't really want to enter CC.
They don't care quite as a prince would about W, because the moment the got shot something went wrong anyway.
The pistol is nothing to write home about. ditto the BS.
Basically, you are paying 21 points for the aura, and a bunch of stuff you don't really care for.
Now, if you don't have many princes around, the aura is useful. but if you got a whole bunch of princes anyway-less so.
Exactly. There is no reason to prefer a sorcerer over a daemon prince. And if people say: Oh but you got more powers now so they are better. It was the same when the CSM codex came out. Oh you got dark hereticus powers now so exalted are fine. Well i got 6 of them and can never justify bringing them. Daemon prince is superior in every way.
Superior in every way except model ! Haha, your right though the DP is just flat better, the only reason I don't take them is the mini but it's easy enough to make one
Dandelion wrote: But the Rubric kit doesn't have autocannons, lascannons etc... They only have a soulreaper. So, no havocs.
Not sure what the special weapon squad would have. All flamers? That's not that useful.
Remember, you're still stuck with the no model-no rules problem, so kitbashing is out of the question.
We have the weapons, Forge world makes them, and GW makes the Havoc upgrade kit, not even a plastic one, so "no model, no rules" does not apply to the heavy weapons, just pure laziness from the design team, or at least thats the image they are putting out :/
GW pretends FW doesn't exist when writing rules, so that's not going to happen. But if you ask FW yourself maybe they'll make rules for 40k rubric devastators. Would that help for the time being?
Of course, I'm not unreasonable lol.
I also forgot to mention that of course, gw makes the weapons too, little more conversion needed but still very easy to do
GW is trying to make the game beginner friendly, hence the no model-no rules. If you are required to convert something to work then it's not going to happen, regardless of how easy it is. It's just a tight spot that we're in. This current design philosophy invalidated lots of cool stuff and it will take a while for new kits to be made so that we can get them again.
see this is why I think the designers are incompetent or at the very least dont know their own product range, in order to take advantage of a lot of ranges, you MUST convert them, there are no plastic havocs so we must convert some using the upgrade sets, in EXACTLY the same manner as the HH ones.
Just a quick google search shows that GW wants you to convert stuff, but doesnt... but does..... ergh.
I just wish as a community we could all get together on just one message, not chaos stuff, not make this or make that, just a simple
The crux of the issue is that GW needs to provide the models for the rules they publish. Sure, I can take a leman russ, throw some ork bits on it and run it as a battlewagon (which is basically proxying) but GW cannot REQUIRE you to convert to get an option. Take Rough Riders for example. If I buy the codex and see they're an option but then find out GW doesn't sell them, what am I supposed to do? Buy 3rd party? How would I even know that's an option? Also, if I buy a box expecting to get a certain weapon I saw in the datasheet, it needs to be in the box. How would you feel as a new player if you had to go through Ebay just to find a plasma pistol you're datasheet said you could have but wasn't in the kit?
GW currently does sell havocs as a unit which means they get rules.
But they no longer sell rough riders, so no rules.
It makes sense, but like I said, it will take them time to make new kits to replace all the OOP stuff and get all those sweet options. Until then we're going to be short on options.
Dandelion wrote: But the Rubric kit doesn't have autocannons, lascannons etc... They only have a soulreaper. So, no havocs.
Not sure what the special weapon squad would have. All flamers? That's not that useful.
Remember, you're still stuck with the no model-no rules problem, so kitbashing is out of the question.
We have the weapons, Forge world makes them, and GW makes the Havoc upgrade kit, not even a plastic one, so "no model, no rules" does not apply to the heavy weapons, just pure laziness from the design team, or at least thats the image they are putting out :/
GW pretends FW doesn't exist when writing rules, so that's not going to happen. But if you ask FW yourself maybe they'll make rules for 40k rubric devastators. Would that help for the time being?
Of course, I'm not unreasonable lol.
I also forgot to mention that of course, gw makes the weapons too, little more conversion needed but still very easy to do
GW is trying to make the game beginner friendly, hence the no model-no rules. If you are required to convert something to work then it's not going to happen, regardless of how easy it is. It's just a tight spot that we're in. This current design philosophy invalidated lots of cool stuff and it will take a while for new kits to be made so that we can get them again.
see this is why I think the designers are incompetent or at the very least dont know their own product range, in order to take advantage of a lot of ranges, you MUST convert them, there are no plastic havocs so we must convert some using the upgrade sets, in EXACTLY the same manner as the HH ones.
Just a quick google search shows that GW wants you to convert stuff, but doesnt... but does..... ergh.
I just wish as a community we could all get together on just one message, not chaos stuff, not make this or make that, just a simple
The crux of the issue is that GW needs to provide the models for the rules they publish. Sure, I can take a leman russ, throw some ork bits on it and run it as a battlewagon (which is basically proxying) but GW cannot REQUIRE you to convert to get an option. Take Rough Riders for example. If I buy the codex and see they're an option but then find out GW doesn't sell them, what am I supposed to do? Buy 3rd party? How would I even know that's an option? Also, if I buy a box expecting to get a certain weapon I saw in the datasheet, it needs to be in the box. How would you feel as a new player if you had to go through Ebay just to find a plasma pistol you're datasheet said you could have but wasn't in the kit?
GW currently does sell havocs as a unit which means they get rules.
But they no longer sell rough riders, so no rules.
It makes sense, but like I said, it will take them time to make new kits to replace all the OOP stuff and get all those sweet options. Until then we're going to be short on options.
Except, the dreadknight grandmaster has all the same weapon options as a dreadknight. The only differences are his stats and abilites, none of those require special gear. So yes, they do make the model for it, therefore it gets rules. No conversion is required, but you can if you want to. It's like how the Custodes can make Shield-Captains: same model different rules.
If you wanted an actual counterpoint, you should have mentioned IG veterans. Infantry boxes don't come with a shotgun yet we still have that option. (melta, plasma and sniper rifles are sold individually so those are okay). But that seems to have just been overlooked instead of being deliberate (or a result of incompetence if you prefer). All that proves is that Guard models are so old GW forgot what their kits have.
Regardless, GW will continue tidying up their rules to match their models. We can just hope they will produce interesting kits to give us those options back.
Having Rubric Chosen and Havocs would have been cool, but doesn't really help much. More options for rubrics doesn't solve the problem that Rubrics are not good. A 4 soul reaper heavy support squad would dish out some pain, but I doubt it'd compete with other army's heavy support options. And even if it did, our Troop Rubrics are still just not good :(
Previous to this Codex, we had access to the re-roll 1s for invul saves aura, this allowed us to run multiple min squads because each squad could recive a minor buff.
Losing the easy access to this aura which used to buff multiple Rubric squads in the way they really needed it, was basically how we were able to run multiple squads. Now, without that buff you will be seeing a drop in durability agianst the weapons most often fired at our Rubrics.
In return we were given spells which you really don't want to cast from AS, due to the high warp charge, or how good the spell is, and an aura which is attached to an expensive model which is better used on acutal Sorcerers rather then AS.
The only effective way to keep our Rubics alive at this point is spells, in particular Weaver of Fate and Glamor of Tzeentch, which means you could bring 2 10 man squads, but you would be much better off running one 20 man squad since you can cast both spells on the same unit.
In the end when you build your army, your mutilith most, your HQs, the Shamans, will be there for your Tzaangors and you will bring 1 Exalted Sorcerer to buff your Rubrics.
Ok. I managed all 32 pages, and can write a reply now.
I am sad. I always considered myself a big fan of TS since 3ed. I stopped playing the game with the introduction of true loss mechanics as in my opinion, it destroyed half of the hobby of converting your miniatures. I didn't stop collecting, painting and dreaming.
Now it seemed that a dream came true. We got a good box of Rubrics, Scarab Occult Terminators (I still don't understand how they became rubricated), Exalted Sorcerers (so many tasty bits in the kit) and Magnus. Then they announced the codex! I was happy as a pig and knew it was time to return to the hobby!
This thread made me sad again. I feel the pain the OP has, and some other dedicated TS players have. I have it as well.
This is indeed a codex Tzangors book. Tzangors got all the combos, all the stratagems and the points to effectiveness ratios. I almost want to go back to the CSM codex.
And the worst part of it is that if people will skip buying Tzangors (I will skip them), GW will just consider TS a money sink army for them to properly support.
I will still make myself a TS army to play with. I even thought of making Tzangor count as miniatures out of IG Scions. And most likely the army will be heavy on daemon engines. Will be hard not to lose TS spirit in it, but definitely better than Tzangors who are a type of blue bloodletters. If I wanted daemon looking half naked horned birds I would not have played TS.
My complaints are:
1) Rubrics are outmatched by Tzangors in almost every aspect.
I thought that the ability to cast something other than mini smite was a big buff until I saw that the AS actually has nothing to cast anyway, mostly because of the high WC.
2) No rules for actual TS units (I can make models myself, just give me the rules).
The possibilities are endless. Psy Dreads, Sorc covens, hidden ones?, hell any form of a daemon engine, as long as it doesn't look like a bird can do.
3) The units we have are not flexible at all.
Only swords on SOT? Why? Exalted Sorc in terminator armour? jump packs? Rubric variants?
4) The Thousand Sons Legion army was robbed of its name. Wait 5 years and people around you will think that TS are tzangors, horrors and a big red daemon prince.
Even the codex Grey Knights makes better TS...
I am kind of sympathetic to all this melancholy, but I'm also at a bit of a loss. I mean, here's an example of what you'll be doing with our new codex: take a batallion with 2 Rubric squads and one Tzaangor herd for deepstriking. Your dusties hold the line and shoot things up, or ride in a rhino to protect them (which can now shoot with 8 -2 shots in rapid fire range, or dish out mortal wounds when it charges to tie something scary up in CC. Big improvement for your rhinos.), or they deepstrike in for a CP, etc.
Meanwhile your ASs can throw back heals on that butcher-cannon contemptor that's getting shot up (remember that techmarines have to be within 3" to do the same). The other squad can drop Boon on your advancing DP every round, buffing an already monstrous unit. They support your big casters by contributing to the requirements to trigger the +2 cast strategem (they're the best in the roster for this), and the trait means that your caster is no longer hamstrung for hanging out with his dusty brothers.
Finally, your HQ will no doubt give one or both squads 1-rerolls, which is a big damage improvement. All our sorcerers are captains now too. Awesome. Thousand Sons HQs got a great deal in this Codex - terminator sorcerer is really improved, as is our DP, and Ahriman got tankier - these are all Sons units, and all great. Any of them will now up your damage output.
Did your 10-man rubric squad get caught up in cc with a chaff charge? Smash the dark crystal, teleport away and shoot the same turn. Ahhhh, that's going to feel very satisfying.
So... Are you somehow *polluted* by this experience? I don't see why. Have your Sons improved? Vastly, with the exception of Big Red. Are tzaangors probably more competitive than dusties? Yes, because they a) are horde units, and they dominate 8th edition, and b) they have gotten some amazing powers and buffs. This is good. They are your other option, they are great models, and they fit in our roster really well.
I'm not saying that next year, if there are Sons lists at LVO, that they won't be spamming Gors - they probably will. But that isn't the only metric by which to assess a codex. Isn't that the actual point of many you?
Heelidar wrote: Ok. I managed all 32 pages, and can write a reply now.
I am sad. I always considered myself a big fan of TS since 3ed. I stopped playing the game with the introduction of true loss mechanics as in my opinion, it destroyed half of the hobby of converting your miniatures. I didn't stop collecting, painting and dreaming.
Now it seemed that a dream came true. We got a good box of Rubrics, Scarab Occult Terminators (I still don't understand how they became rubricated), Exalted Sorcerers (so many tasty bits in the kit) and Magnus. Then they announced the codex! I was happy as a pig and knew it was time to return to the hobby!
This thread made me sad again. I feel the pain the OP has, and some other dedicated TS players have. I have it as well.
This is indeed a codex Tzangors book. Tzangors got all the combos, all the stratagems and the points to effectiveness ratios. I almost want to go back to the CSM codex.
And the worst part of it is that if people will skip buying Tzangors (I will skip them), GW will just consider TS a money sink army for them to properly support.
I will still make myself a TS army to play with. I even thought of making Tzangor count as miniatures out of IG Scions. And most likely the army will be heavy on daemon engines. Will be hard not to lose TS spirit in it, but definitely better than Tzangors who are a type of blue bloodletters. If I wanted daemon looking half naked horned birds I would not have played TS.
My complaints are:
1) Rubrics are outmatched by Tzangors in almost every aspect.
I thought that the ability to cast something other than mini smite was a big buff until I saw that the AS actually has nothing to cast anyway, mostly because of the high WC.
2) No rules for actual TS units (I can make models myself, just give me the rules).
The possibilities are endless. Psy Dreads, Sorc covens, hidden ones?, hell any form of a daemon engine, as long as it doesn't look like a bird can do.
3) The units we have are not flexible at all.
Only swords on SOT? Why? Exalted Sorc in terminator armour? jump packs? Rubric variants?
4) The Thousand Sons Legion army was robbed of its name. Wait 5 years and people around you will think that TS are tzangors, horrors and a big red daemon prince.
Even the codex Grey Knights makes better TS...
- Death Guard: 18 separate boxes + Dark Imperium models (Those all are in total 61 different models: 1 primarch, 10 characters, 4 vehicles, 11 terminators, 19 plague marines and 16 plague zombies)
- Thousand Sons: 6 separate boxes (Those are 30 different models: 1 primarch, 4 characters, 5 terminators, 10 rubric marines and 10 tzaangors) (Tzaangors box is debatable because it is actualy intended for not-fantasy)
2 x number of different models and 3 x number of separate boxes released.
Best part of this is that as people is saying right now, because the TS range is "complete", we won't see anything for them in 10+ years and everybody will be happy...
We're all very aware. But we also understand that there is a limited window for model releases and there is no wayGW was going to be able to expand TS the same way as DG at this point in time.
DG got lucky to be the poster boy bad guy of the edition. Regardless we got a decent book and it's time to move on with out lives while we wait for things to shake out further.
If we need to fight for 16 point Rubrics and 5 man soulreapers then we do that. But this thread needs to die, because it's like listening to Tina Belcher moan at this point.
Rulewise? ofc not.
Because that strat is a clear downgrade of the VOTLW that was rather obivous we're supposed to get, and that new engine is still only supporting the gors.
Modelwise, yes, a bit.
Pleasing us, rule wise, would have been really easy even without models.
Yea, with even a tiny bit of models they could have made us bliss, but making us happy really took little, and didn't even require the sigmar model ports.
Had the mutalit been decent at supporting dust units, it would have been good-but they only support gors.
If there were good strats for dusts it would be nice, but the only dust-only strat is really bad, the "turn to rust" one is also horrible and everything else is either directly related to mutants, or just better for than than to the dusts.
The resons why we are upset can be sorted into the following, at least for the reasonable expectation players:
1-the stratagems, relics, and other support mechanics actually support a gor army, rather than a dust army.
The best stratagems, webway infiltration and cycle of slaughter. one is gor exclusive, another works better for gors than anyone else. then you got some "PA sons" strats who are just outright bad.
The inferno bolt stratagem should have effect all relevant guns on the model rather than just one (even then its iffy), the soul flare should have been a 2+ rather than a 4+ to be noteworthy and beam...given only the warlord can even use it shouuld also probably trigger at 2+ (and 4+ on characters) the mutants, on the other end, gets the best CC start in the game (2 cp attack twice)
The relics, lets just say are not a good work. the helm and crystal are great, but the 3 weapons are rather poor (especially the staff, why on earth would you care about disengaging and shooting/charging with a sorcerer?) and the scrolls from CA are still worthless.
The mutalit buffs are good for gors, not for dusts. the gors also got exclusive aura from shamans. spells also effect them better due to numbers rule. etc.
2-the spells the dust units DID get, are not spells they actually want. each of them is bad (firestorm), good only when used on someone else (doombolt), or best when used by someone else (everything else), with the few spells that would actually be good for them well locked in the other disciplines. so, if you got more than 2-3 dust squads, you quickly run out of spells to give them.
Couple it with the fact they did nothing to help them mitigate the massive danger that is perils for them (other than having magnus around I guess), and they are still not going to cast all that often-its too risky for too little gain.
3-the dust units got 0 intresting rules, and the prexistance of such rules is already in 30k, and had a hint of it in 7th. they could EASILY port some version of the "thousand sons cults"
For example they could introduce cults by having our aura HQs (magnus, ahriman, dp and exalted) project one of five auras depending on cult.
Easy cults: corvidate rr1 hits even if only at shooting, raptora rr1 invul, athenean a LD boost of sorts, pyrae something to support flamers (gun range boost for example, effecting all guns to be less one-dimentinal), pavoni something to boost CC (+S? +A? both as actual rubrics suck at CC?). lets say magnus gets them all because he's magnus (instead of his current aura, as awesome it is), and costs more to compensate. ahriman naturally locked into corvidae
That's just one example of many. its flavorful, it gives multiple "leader" a reason to exist, and it allows for different types of lists. you might need to bump a few point costs up to correlate for the choice, and maybe look out for the possibility of combining them getting out of hand-but that's balancing issues not concepts issues and its not like other armies don't have multiple auras
They could have told FW to do a simul-release of a dataslate for orisons to get us psyker dreadnauts that they KNEW we wanted for a long time, it would cost them nothing, not even book space, and it would make people happy even if the dataslate wasn't very good.
They could make a spin-off of some model (probably the exalted) that is easily converted like they did the grandmaster dreadknight. ESPECIALLY the exalteds, given how they are sold in packs of 3 and its currently insane to even consider having 3.
There are MANY ways they could make the PA side of the codex more interesting and engaging rulewise without needing any new models. it took me all of five minutes to come up with the random nonsense I wrote here. a team that's actually his work and got himself a few hours to work on the codex can easily come up with more and better.
4-the legion tactic itself, is poor. really poor.
It doesn't come up often to begin with, and it provides zero "numerical advantage", just a minor tactical one.
To make it worse, many units dont even CARE about the tactic. its bad for all marines that all the armor devision is basically identical regardless of what legion you are, but for TS even the cultists and helbrute are identical to generic <whatever> ones without any trait.
The only reason why gors are taken as TS, is because they have to be. the legion tactics don't even effect them. they could be a part of a generic <chaos> dethachment and be mechanically identical, so beisdes being given the keyword-how are they thousand sons?
The tactic should have effected more widely, even something as silly as "6+ invul if oyu dont have one" at least would salvage helbrutes and cultists from being irrelevant-they wouldn't be good, but they would have a reason. 6+ versus mortal wounds in the psyker phase (the very thing custodians got as part of thier tactics) would also been a good option-it helps protect against perils, and expands on the psyker dominance by the fact using magic against them isn't as useful.
The list goes infinitly on for minor things they could have done to make the non-casters actually be TS rather than generic <chaos> dudes as far as rules are bothered. even something tiny that's practically a sidenote and might never come up would feel better than nothing at all.
But the current trait means that if you don't cast-you got no trait. if you are in range anyway-you got no trait.
These are the four points that ACTUALLY bother the TS playerbase.
They can be summed up in that it mostly reeks of laziness and pushing the ported AoS line rather than doing anything for the existing TS.
The army list for the "most competetive" TS builds shapes up to look like princes for HQs, gors for troops, bowgors for FA, mutalits for HS and not a single dude in PA/termi to be seen-except MAYBE ahriman or a one-of termi sorcerer.
And not because we all love the goats so much, but beacuse the entire codex is geared towards making them good, while giving barely any attention to dusts.
Totally agreed.
And your ideas are really good. The TS cults rules you suggest are superb, i would have loved to have something like that in the codex. Really brilliant. I like all you say there. And as you say, GW with a dedicated team cannot came up with anything remotely similar and the only thing they manage to do is add fantasy units and copy-paste everything else.
Dandelion wrote: Guys, all you have to do to understand why TS didn't get new Rubrics is look at the timeframe. A production cycle is about 2-3 years. The new TS kits are a year old right? That means GW would have had to start designing new kits as soon as they finished the other ones to even possibly get them ready by now. But that would slow down progress on other lines that they needed/wanted to work on. Saying "GW could have easily added a kit or two" is actually false because they physically couldn't fit them in the schedule at all. Instead, they gave you more Tzaangors to help diversify your lists (if you want them).
You're just victims of production constraints, not malice or neglect on GW's part. Comparing yourselves to Primaris, Death Guard and Custodes is disingenuous because no one else got any new kits. GW were maxed out.
Pointing this out does not mean people are actively trying to hamstring TS, nor are they defending GW intentionally screwing over a faction. The fact that Primaris were overcosted means that the design team makes honest mistakes, which is probably what happened to Rubrics.
You can still think it sucks and it probably does, but you won't get any sympathy from other players because they have their own problems to deal with.
You are right, models take time to make etc. Now watch this
Heavy support:
Rubricai havoc squad
Unit 4-9 rubric marines, 1 aspiring sorcerer
Options: up to 4 rubric marines may take, heavy bolter with inferno bolts, autocannons, lascannons etc.
Elites:
Rubric special weapon squad
Up to 4 rubric marines
Etc. Etc.
So with no effort at all, I've just make the 1 existing kit fill 3 different roles in the army, no model cycle involved, no new kits needed.
That would have been ideal. But all evidence pointed agaisnt that possibility. I don't know why people even had hope for something like that. It goes agaisnt everything GW has done for 8th.
I don't know, expecting something that is nearly impossible to happen, just to be dissapointed about it after it, as expected, doesn't happens, is a little... pointless?
"Impossible"? "Pointless"? Really?
What about this:
Codex: Grey Knights
A full codex built with a handful of model releases. Specifically, there are 2 GK infantry kits, and with those kits in the codex you can make at least 5 different units.
In the Thousand Sons case, Gw could had done the exact same thing with the existing boxed kits we have, or using models from across the 40k range. So it is not exactly a huge assumption leap or "pointless". That is the part that saddens and annoys me the most. For GW part, i think that is just lack of any effort or care or thought about what they are doing. People here have said a lot of different ideas (good ideas) for units that could be made using the TS range and/or other existing GW kits with minimal or none conversions.
Like for example, the ideas from MechaEmperor7000:
Up to 4 Rubric Marines take that gattling cannon thingy. 1 Sorceror to grant them rerolls I guess (possibly his unique psychic power or some buff, idunno). Heavy Support. Counterpart to the Havocs.
Rehati War Coven Squad:
3-10 Sorcerors. Comes in three flavours: Power armor Elites, Terminator HS, and Disc-riding Fast attack. The Elites version can cast powers easier and cast spells that others have already attempted. The Terminator ones can cast Smite with modified stats to fit either anti-horde or anti vehicle. The Disc-riding ones are just normal casters, but in exchange are an entire unit of force weapon-wielding flankers (that can potentially buff themselves). The First is Elites, Corresponds to Chosen. The second are HS, corresponds to Centurions or Obliterators. The third are Fast Attack, obviously bikers.
If they reeeeeeally need a new set for any of this, probably 1 set of 3 snap-fit Scarab Occult Terminators (that, as a bonus, can double as Terminator lords too). But I agree with Formosa in that it's not that hard to come up with new unit entries, and that's not even including the fact that you could get new sculpts too (even if they're just easy to build ones like the Blight Hauler. T-Sons Automata anyone?).
Also for people thinking I'm ragging on the Death Guard just because they got the fancy new toys. Look at my avatar and title. I have over 100 plague marines now and I am loving the sets, which is why I feel T-Sons got the short end of the stick since they deserved just as much (and when the World Eaters and Emperor's Children version comes and falls short, I will champion them as well).
Good ideas, i like them. And thank you for the bolded part, i appreciate it.
Zhan wrote: I see a lot of you talking about different gun options and while i agree it would be nice to have some more gun options other than bolter or flamer to gain some variety but I didn't really picked up a TS army for the shooting options.
I picked up a TS because i wanted to blast everything with psychic powers but see no reason why TS is better than any other army. [...]
Am i the only one that feels the same way? An aspiring sorcerer can now cast a "normal" power but without any help they continue to be more of a liability than a asset when you used up the re-roll.
I feel the same way as you, and i agree with what you said. TS should be really scary in the psychic phase and their powers be the real way of destroying things, with shooting and assault as supporting elements, and not the other way around. Right now the TS just are killing themselves in the psychic phase with the null aid to cast the powers and no way of avoiding perils of the warp.
-- And speaking of that, it seems that in the new codex the Rubric marines and SOT squads remains the same in terms of suffering "perils of the warp". It seems there are no clarification or rules or anything, so basically everytime an aspiring sorcerer suffers it, it would kill half of his squad... This was a unit and a situation that needed some sort of clarification or special rule for them (like the GK), but GW simply has copy-pasted the Index units without more effort... is just plain sad
if Thousand Sons did not have the VOTLW rule, and instead had a stratagem called "Inferno Bolt Firestorm" that read "1CP: in the shooting phase, one unit's Inferno Bolters, Warpflamers, Heavy Warpflamers, Soulreaper Cannons, and Hellfyre Missile racks get +1 to wound rolls for the phase"...would you be happier?
Or how about if the Mutalith Beast was instead a new Thousand Sons specific Daemon Engine using a reboxed Fantasy Necrosphinx?
In my opinion, stratagems are mostly a bad way of representing or making an army more "fluff-friendly". Specially in the case of armies like TS and other elite armies, where the CP count is really low. In general i dislike them. Things from the background that were well represented in previous editions, in this edition are being relegated to the stratagems pages, and it is just underwhelming. In the case of the TS, things like the inferno ammo should be an option to have in the vehicles. A combibolter inferno as a base weapon and options to have other inferno weaponry as a payed option.
The second idea you ask, i actually like it. With specific rules and not ones ported from fantasy, it would be a great addition.
Heelidar wrote: Ok. I managed all 32 pages, and can write a reply now.
I am sad. I always considered myself a big fan of TS since 3ed. I stopped playing the game with the introduction of true loss mechanics as in my opinion, it destroyed half of the hobby of converting your miniatures. I didn't stop collecting, painting and dreaming.
Now it seemed that a dream came true. We got a good box of Rubrics, Scarab Occult Terminators (I still don't understand how they became rubricated), Exalted Sorcerers (so many tasty bits in the kit) and Magnus. Then they announced the codex! I was happy as a pig and knew it was time to return to the hobby!
This thread made me sad again. I feel the pain the OP has, and some other dedicated TS players have. I have it as well.
This is indeed a codex Tzangors book. Tzangors got all the combos, all the stratagems and the points to effectiveness ratios. I almost want to go back to the CSM codex.
And the worst part of it is that if people will skip buying Tzangors (I will skip them), GW will just consider TS a money sink army for them to properly support.
I will still make myself a TS army to play with. I even thought of making Tzangor count as miniatures out of IG Scions. And most likely the army will be heavy on daemon engines. Will be hard not to lose TS spirit in it, but definitely better than Tzangors who are a type of blue bloodletters. If I wanted daemon looking half naked horned birds I would not have played TS.
My complaints are:
1) Rubrics are outmatched by Tzangors in almost every aspect.
I thought that the ability to cast something other than mini smite was a big buff until I saw that the AS actually has nothing to cast anyway, mostly because of the high WC.
2) No rules for actual TS units (I can make models myself, just give me the rules).
The possibilities are endless. Psy Dreads, Sorc covens, hidden ones?, hell any form of a daemon engine, as long as it doesn't look like a bird can do.
3) The units we have are not flexible at all.
Only swords on SOT? Why? Exalted Sorc in terminator armour? jump packs? Rubric variants?
4) The Thousand Sons Legion army was robbed of its name. Wait 5 years and people around you will think that TS are tzangors, horrors and a big red daemon prince.
Even the codex Grey Knights makes better TS...
Why would you do that to yourself. Lol.
He is agreeing with you if i understood it right... I don't understand your reaction
grouchoben wrote: I am kind of sympathetic to all this melancholy, but I'm also at a bit of a loss. I mean, here's an example of what you'll be doing with our new codex: take a batallion with 2 Rubric squads and one Tzaangor herd for deepstriking. Your dusties hold the line and shoot things up, or ride in a rhino to protect them (which can now shoot with 8 -2 shots in rapid fire range, or dish out mortal wounds when it charges to tie something scary up in CC. Big improvement for your rhinos.), or they deepstrike in for a CP, etc.
Meanwhile your ASs can throw back heals on that butcher-cannon contemptor that's getting shot up (remember that techmarines have to be within 3" to do the same). The other squad can drop Boon on your advancing DP every round, buffing an already monstrous unit. They support your big casters by contributing to the requirements to trigger the +2 cast strategem (they're the best in the roster for this), and the trait means that your caster is no longer hamstrung for hanging out with his dusty brothers.
Finally, your HQ will no doubt give one or both squads 1-rerolls, which is a big damage improvement. All our sorcerers are captains now too. Awesome. Thousand Sons HQs got a great deal in this Codex - terminator sorcerer is really improved, as is our DP, and Ahriman got tankier - these are all Sons units, and all great. Any of them will now up your damage output.
Did your 10-man rubric squad get caught up in cc with a chaff charge? Smash the dark crystal, teleport away and shoot the same turn. Ahhhh, that's going to feel very satisfying.
So... Are you somehow *polluted* by this experience? I don't see why. Have your Sons improved? Vastly, with the exception of Big Red. Are tzaangors probably more competitive than dusties? Yes, because they a) are horde units, and they dominate 8th edition, and b) they have gotten some amazing powers and buffs. This is good. They are your other option, they are great models, and they fit in our roster really well.
I'm not saying that next year, if there are Sons lists at LVO, that they won't be spamming Gors - they probably will. But that isn't the only metric by which to assess a codex. Isn't that the actual point of many you?
You only get 1 bolter weapon upgraded from the strat. So 4 inferno bolter shots and 4 reg bolter shots.
You can't cast boon on DP.
Your better off using regular Sorcs for buffing since they can cast 2 know 2 have a wider selection, and bringing 2 Tzaangor squads will pay for most of 1 sorc.
How did TS improve? They got 1 aura taken away and 1 added which is attached to a 100+ dollar model which may or may not survive the first round.
They got less durable, and more? Not killy, thats for sure, we already had access to a reroll 1s aura. DPs never should have had wings on them because all they needed to do was stand next to your Rubrics and do a HI when ever they got charged.
Now we have no reason to bring Exalted, for some weird reason our Sorcerer in Terminator is very appealing.
No they dont fit in our roster they dominate it.
Anwser me this; The Mutalith has 6 different auras, not one of them benefit shooting, why not?
Ah yes Enlightened, with their auto wounds, which is improved by the Shaman, and rerolling 1s to hit. Can't up the already high number of wounds they will be getting.
So make it a units with the All is dust rule only.
Yup your right it's a melee creature, which means it will only be effective in CC if only it had a really big aura like 18"...oh well.
That is what really gets me, that 18" aura is really weird for a model that belongs in CC and only has CC buffs, there is no reason to have a huge aura like that when its going to be right next to the thing its buffing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Warpspy
Have you read this thread?
Half the comments for the first 10 pages are various forms of the three same phrases.
Half the comments for the first 10 pages are various forms of the three same phrases.
Quite whining, shut up, and just buy the models.
Yes i have read that, and some of those kind comments have been directed at me in various threads as well. What i said is that Heelidar is in fact agreeing with you, it is saying the same as you or many other people or me are saying, so laugh at him is something i don't understand... Maybe i'm losing something in the translation, english is not my first language, were you being sarcastic?
Earth127 wrote: At this point I wouldn't ask my friends or enemies toi read the entirety of this thread , too much flaming and salt.
Rule n°1 as Alpharius keeps saying took a beating.
I'd like to plead not guilty, but I'm quite sure I am not innocent TBH
Still, it was an interesting read, from the point of watching some people being optimistic and slowly fading into scepticism as more rumours came true.
Earth127 wrote: At this point I wouldn't ask my friends or enemies toi read the entirety of this thread , too much flaming and salt.
Rule n°1 as Alpharius keeps saying took a beating.
I'd like to plead not guilty, but I'm quite sure I am not innocent TBH
Still, it was an interesting read, from the point of watching some people being optimistic and slowly fading into scepticism as more rumours came true.
As one of the people who's optimism has eroded away, I'm glad I could at least entertain you.
"A unit of 10 can also take a soulreaper cannon. If you have Rubric Marines with inferno bolters, always take the soulreaper cannon – it hurts all the same targets your bolters do, but better, and with the same range, so it’s always contributing to the squad’s firepower."
Seems like its not a mistake, don't expect it to get FAQed
Half the comments for the first 10 pages are various forms of the three same phrases.
Quite whining, shut up, and just buy the models.
Yes i have read that, and some of those kind comments have been directed at me in various threads as well. What i said is that Heelidar is in fact agreeing with you, it is saying the same as you or many other people or me are saying, so laugh at him is something i don't understand... Maybe i'm losing something in the translation, english is not my first language, were you being sarcastic?
It was more of a you should have skipped to the end, rather then reading that garbage.
grouchoben wrote: I am kind of sympathetic to all this melancholy, but I'm also at a bit of a loss. I mean, here's an example of what you'll be doing with our new codex: take a batallion with 2 Rubric squads and one Tzaangor herd for deepstriking. Your dusties hold the line and shoot things up, or ride in a rhino to protect them (which can now shoot with 8 -2 shots in rapid fire range, or dish out mortal wounds when it charges to tie something scary up in CC. Big improvement for your rhinos.), or they deepstrike in for a CP, etc.
Meanwhile your ASs can throw back heals on that butcher-cannon contemptor that's getting shot up (remember that techmarines have to be within 3" to do the same). The other squad can drop Boon on your advancing DP every round, buffing an already monstrous unit. They support your big casters by contributing to the requirements to trigger the +2 cast strategem (they're the best in the roster for this), and the trait means that your caster is no longer hamstrung for hanging out with his dusty brothers.
Finally, your HQ will no doubt give one or both squads 1-rerolls, which is a big damage improvement. All our sorcerers are captains now too. Awesome. Thousand Sons HQs got a great deal in this Codex - terminator sorcerer is really improved, as is our DP, and Ahriman got tankier - these are all Sons units, and all great. Any of them will now up your damage output.
Did your 10-man rubric squad get caught up in cc with a chaff charge? Smash the dark crystal, teleport away and shoot the same turn. Ahhhh, that's going to feel very satisfying.
So... Are you somehow *polluted* by this experience? I don't see why. Have your Sons improved? Vastly, with the exception of Big Red. Are tzaangors probably more competitive than dusties? Yes, because they a) are horde units, and they dominate 8th edition, and b) they have gotten some amazing powers and buffs. This is good. They are your other option, they are great models, and they fit in our roster really well.
I'm not saying that next year, if there are Sons lists at LVO, that they won't be spamming Gors - they probably will. But that isn't the only metric by which to assess a codex. Isn't that the actual point of many you?
You only get 1 bolter weapon upgraded from the strat. So 4 inferno bolter shots and 4 reg bolter shots.
You can't cast boon on DP.
Your better off using regular Sorcs for buffing since they can cast 2 know 2 have a wider selection, and bringing 2 Tzaangor squads will pay for most of 1 sorc.
How did TS improve? They got 1 aura taken away and 1 added which is attached to a 100+ dollar model which may or may not survive the first round.
They got less durable, and more? Not killy, thats for sure, we already had access to a reroll 1s aura. DPs never should have had wings on them because all they needed to do was stand next to your Rubrics and do a HI when ever they got charged.
Now we have no reason to bring Exalted, for some weird reason our Sorcerer in Terminator is very appealing.
No they dont fit in our roster they dominate it.
Anwser me this; The Mutalith has 6 different auras, not one of them benefit shooting, why not?
Ah yes Enlightened, with their auto wounds, which is improved by the Shaman, and rerolling 1s to hit. Can't up the already high number of wounds they will be getting.
So make it a units with the All is dust rule only.
Yup your right it's a melee creature, which means it will only be effective in CC if only it had a really big aura like 18"...oh well.
That is what really gets me, that 18" aura is really weird for a model that belongs in CC and only has CC buffs, there is no reason to have a huge aura like that when its going to be right next to the thing its buffing.
The Mutalith doesn't have an aura. You pick a Single unit with in 9 or 18 when its damage roll and that unit gets the ability. You need to roll a d6 to see see if the ability manifests (not the d6 for choosing two abilities) and that is also tied to the damage profile 2+/3+/4+.
The buffs aren't auras, they affect a single unit within range more like My Will Be Done.
What and they want 150 points jesus.
It's still a 14W T7 monster with decent CC-capabilities. (12 attacks even at WS4+ is nothing to scoff at.)
I'd take a Mutalith over a Maulerfiend every day in a TS-list.
I would take 2 or 3 for a spearhead. But yeah the mutalith looks like a no brainier replacement for a mauler fiend. That's why I am afraid one of them will either go up or down in points by the end of the year just to create a differentiation between them.
So even saying that Rubrics shouldn't get anything new because there are not many left... just to let you know, in the codex it states there are nearly 1,000 sorcerers in the Thousand Sons and THOUSANDS of Rubrics.
*EDIT: My bad. There are 9 Cults. Each Cult has HUNDREDS of Sorcerers and THOUSANDS of Rubrics. EACH.
The cults definitely should've gotten representation, but sadly they don't seem to be offering that level of customization to the sub factions. I get the logic they were going with, but when each subfaction's army list is so different than the main one you feel like some other options for CTs wouldn't be amiss.
At TERRA there were 10,000 Sons. if Forgeworlds numbers are to be taken as fact here for this discussion.
I agree that rubrics needed more, I expect an FAQ clearing up at least 1 of these issues, and possibly more.
I think Scarab Occult will feature heavily in lists where Rubrics do not, though I still think rubrics are decent for what they are. lord knows we have the buffs to make em great.
nintura wrote: So even saying that Rubrics shouldn't get anything new because there are not many left... just to let you know, in the codex it states there are nearly 1,000 sorcerers in the Thousand Sons and THOUSANDS of Rubrics.
*EDIT: My bad. There are 9 Cults. Each Cult has HUNDREDS of Sorcerers and THOUSANDS of Rubrics. EACH.
LOL When you screw up and put that there are Thousands of Rubric Marines and have 1 unit... Not to mention where did those Rubrics come from?
At TERRA there were 10,000 Sons. if Forgeworlds numbers are to be taken as fact here for this discussion.
I agree that rubrics needed more, I expect an FAQ clearing up at least 1 of these issues, and possibly more.
I think Scarab Occult will feature heavily in lists where Rubrics do not, though I still think rubrics are decent for what they are. lord knows we have the buffs to make em great.
Tbh I think if t sons become competitive the only way you will see rubrics will be 5 man spam for more smite, I just don't see scarabs being of any value really.
I dunno, I'm liking the look of the "two wound army". The list I have prepared for when my book comes in has nothing you can shoot at other than cultists, SOT's, and Tzaangor Enlightened.
At TERRA there were 10,000 Sons. if Forgeworlds numbers are to be taken as fact here for this discussion.
I agree that rubrics needed more, I expect an FAQ clearing up at least 1 of these issues, and possibly more.
I think Scarab Occult will feature heavily in lists where Rubrics do not, though I still think rubrics are decent for what they are. lord knows we have the buffs to make em great.
Tbh I think if t sons become competitive the only way you will see rubrics will be 5 man spam for more smite, I just don't see scarabs being of any value really.
Scrabs are extreamly durable espically when buffed and put in cover. 2+ Armor save vs AP -2 is nothing to scoff at, and because you can DS them you can just make sure you take out all the things that will be very effective agianst you first, and leave only the things someone would really not want to shoot at them. With Glamor of Tzeentch coupled with Weaver of Fate on them you can't use low volume high strength shots to kill them because you will end up killing only 1 or 2. Buffing them with Prescience and VotLW while taking Hellfyre Missle Racks will allow you to do on average 9 wounds per 5 taken, leave the Soul Reapers at home though since they don't really add any shots and bump the price up by a bit.
I'm really liking the possibilities of SOT being able to deep strike with a supporting Sorc in TA for buffs. Then having an Exalted on a disc with the DMC to teleport a sqaud as needed.
hazefrog wrote: A mutually beneficial buff tying a single squad of Rubrics to an Exalted Sorcerer would have made so much sense. Would have been really fluffy too.
BoomWolf wrote: None, but it might help push some exalted who REALLY can't sell.
I mean, they come 3 in a box, and an army list is troubled to find room for even 1. NOBODY will ever run 3 exalted as things stand.
But all they need is for you to run 1 and you have to buy the box.
Just like the Sorc in TA it comes in a 60 dollar box with a bunch of Termies. So to get 1 model you have to pay 60 dollars, and get a bunch of models you don't want.
BoomWolf wrote: None, but it might help push some exalted who REALLY can't sell.
I mean, they come 3 in a box, and an army list is troubled to find room for even 1. NOBODY will ever run 3 exalted as things stand.
But all they need is for you to run 1 and you have to buy the box.
Just like the Sorc in TA it comes in a 60 dollar box with a bunch of Termies. So to get 1 model you have to pay 60 dollars, and get a bunch of models you don't want.
The Terminator Sorcerer is a dual kit with the Terminator Lord. So $25 for the model.
Finally getting to read through my codex in detail. So far, I'm at the individual units descriptions and they've mentioned Tzaangors one time and a Mutalith one time buried in the timeline.
Deeefinitely pushing those tzaangors super hard amirite?
But all they need is for you to run 1 and you have to buy the box.
Just like the Sorc in TA it comes in a 60 dollar box with a bunch of Termies. So to get 1 model you have to pay 60 dollars, and get a bunch of models you don't want.
What is it with you and lying about how much particular models actually cost?
There are various Sorcerer models stocked by Games Workshop, you can buy one and convert him with spare parts from the Rubric Marine/Scarab Occult kits. You don't need to buy the Exalted Sorcerer kit if you plan on running just 1 Exalted Sorcerer.
A Sorcerer Lord can be purchased separately to a Terminator squad.
On top of this, you were complaining in the other thread that buying an army of Tzaangors would cost you upwards of $700 (presumably Canadian or American dollars given your location) if you wanted to add just them to whatever Rubrics and Scarab Occult you already own. To actually reach that kind of number, you'd have to buy them exclusively from the Changecult box - which is an inefficient way to get Tzaangors - or buy over 10 boxes of them, and who needs 100+ Tzaangors in their competitive army list?
What is it with you and lying about how much particular models actually cost?
It fit's his narrative about how bad everything regarding Thousand Sons is.
#alternativefacts and all that...
This exactly. The codex turned out fine, so now he has resorted to just blatantly making things up to fit his view. It's really not surprising, at all.
Yea, kina pisses me off that his false cases and general tone makes any actual valid complaints anyone else tries to bring up look bad as it is piled with him...
ITTTS players who dont know any of the army lore beyond the HH kinda laughable and sad at the same time as a brother of the sons its kinda embarassing to be associated with them too
Why would you do that to yourself. 
