Caederes wrote: Ummm......do you lack reading comprehension skills? Because the three things I said we know for sure about the Thousand Sons codex are what you literally just wrote to me despite you also saying "we know way more than that". For goodness sake, why do I even bother!?
Again, how the hell do you know these changes you alone are stating as fact are anything more than your own baseless claims? We know NOTHING about the rule changes this codex will offer, yet here you are saying "this will be the case", "this unit will suck", etc when you have zero authority on the matter. Like any codex, the Index versions could very well be a bare imitation of the eventual "real thing".
Oh god, this logic.....history has proven the "new model, make it broken" theory has holes in it. Look at the Maleceptor. Look at the Scarab Occult. Look at Inceptors. Look at the Slaughterbrute. There are dozens of units that have been garbage upon their introduction to the game, only to either be left in a bad state or fixed later (Inceptors in particular have been redeemed from their original incarnation). It's not a great indicator of anything, as Tyranid players in particular will tell you.
The Smite changes could be nullified on the part of Rubrics with the addition of spell lores to the Aspiring Sorcerers' repertoire, it's what kept them semi-relevant in 7th Edition and in 8th Edition it could help them out big time by at least giving them something decent to cast every turn. If Thousand Sons get two spell lores as some have predicted, Ahriman, Magnus and one or two Exalted/regular Sorcerers won't be enough to cast all those powers plus the full Smites themselves, giving Aspiring and Scarab Occult Sorcerers some added utility. But hey, let's just assume the absolute worst and treat it like gospel, eh?
You want to know what's funny about your logic with GW trying to force us to buy, in your words, "more efficient models"? Said models do not fill the same roles that Rubrics/Scarab Occult/Exalteds/Magnus/Ahriman/etc fill. Rubrics are elite infantry, Tzaangors are fodder infantry. Different roles that can complement each other if both units are balanced right, which is the hope with the new codex. Enlightened are likely to be dedicated melee specialists, Skyfires are likely to be dedicated shooting, but Scarab Occult are the middle-ground that's good at both. Different roles. Tzaangor Shamans, if you look at their AOS rules, won't be as gifted as Ahriman and likely will be a lesser psyker than even a regular Sorcerer, but will be balanced by their mobility and probable Tzaangor-specific buffs, whereas Ahriman and Exalted Sorcerers are powerful psykers with buffs that are universal to Thousand Sons. Different roles. The Mutalith is a big beast but, based on what we know from AOS and can reasonably assume, it won't be a power-house like Magnus, but probably something more in line with either the Tyranid Malaceptor or Tyranid Carnifexes; Magnus is a psychic beat-stick, whereas the Mutalith will probably fit the good old "distraction Carnifex" mold. Different roles. You don't know for certain that points efficiency will dictate the necessitated usage of the Tzaangor units over the Thousand Sons units, especially as the differing roles of each individual unit gives them a special place in any given list, yet you proclaim it like fact and that's honestly pathetic.
Skyfires aren't there to "give Tzaangors more shooting", they are there to give Thousand Sons players a mobile ranged unit in their own codex that may or may not have sniper capabilities. Shamans being there to buff Tzaangor units does not exclude the codex from making changes to Exalted Sorcerers to provide a specific buff to Rubric Marines and Scarab Occult. The Mutalith Vortex Beast isn't there to "function as a screen to give Tzaangors time", it's there to give Thousand Sons an extra monster to play around with that can take fire from the rest of the army, i.e. your elite Rubrics, Magnus, etc. The amount of wilful ignorance you are spouting on this forum is beyond the realm of absurd
Again, how do you know that they won't make net positive adjustments to Rubric Marines? I am beyond sick of this attitude, so I'm going to spell it out for you so you can understand;
You. Do. Not. Know. For. A. Fact. That. The. Changes. You. Think. Will. Happen. Will. Actually. Happen. As. You. Have. No. Proof. To. Back. Up. Any. Of. Your. Claims.
Cheers
Are you saying that GW isn't a business trying to make money?
If GW was in the business of intentionally overtuning stuff in order to sell kits (they used to do that, this has been confirmed, but this is one of many things that the change in leadership got rid of) then Primaris would have been absolutely broken on release. Primaris were hot garbage on release, and are only "viable" after receiving a number of much needed points changes.
The new Tzaangor units might end up being broken but to be so utterly convinced that they will be before we even have a hint of what they're doing (other than what they do in AoS, and you've already completely convinced yourself that Shamans won't do what they do in that game so...) is quite frankly stupid and a little unhealthy.
Of course they are. What on earth gave you the idea that I would say otherwise?
For goodness' sake, apply logic to the situation. New units do not automatically invalidate old units, otherwise Chaos Space Marine players would have flooded the boards with Mutilators, Forgefiends, etc back in 6th Edition. They didn't. They sure as heck flooded the board with Heldrakes though....which is proof that the "new unit is always better than old unit" theory is inconsistent at best. Next example; Tyranids. Toxicrenes, Malaceptors, Exocrines, Haruspexes, etc were all mediocre upon their release and got better with time, ergo, assuming the same will be true of Tzaangors makes no damned sense. There's no reason to believe, as you do, that they are going to invalidate the competitive usage of Rubric Marines and other Thousand Sons legionary units in favour of Tzaangors. Literally none so stop acting like it's a certainty, steady yourself and look at this rationally. We have zero rules-related information on the new codex other than what I've already stated, which is that both new and existing units will be in it, and all the hallmarks of an 8th Edition codex (Warlord Traits, Stratagems, Artefacts, etc) will be in it. Until we know more, assuming the worst is a pointless endeavour and, like this thread, a silly waste of everyone's time.
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Arachnofiend wrote: If GW was in the business of intentionally overtuning stuff in order to sell kits (they used to do that, this has been confirmed, but this is one of many things that the change in leadership got rid of) then Primaris would have been absolutely broken on release. Primaris were hot garbage on release, and are only "viable" after receiving a number of much needed points changes.
The new Tzaangor units might end up being broken but to be so utterly convinced that they will be before we even have a hint of what they're doing (other than what they do in AoS, and you've already completely convinced yourself that Shamans won't do what they do in that game so...) is quite frankly stupid and a little unhealthy.
Ahriman21 wrote: I do think that alot of people here are not quite on the same page in regards to the Thousand Sons.
Seems like half are excited and think it will be cool and the other half have already thrown out the army as trash tier before getting a single codex leak.
Also as for one more thing:
Torga_Dw, I dont know about these mythical "competitive Primaris" lists you are talking about. I have never had any trouble with my Thousand Sons with the INDEX against a codex army of Primaris space marines. They are truly unimpressive.
Unless your taking Guilliman which is a totally different dynamic due to his ability to hide.
If the Rubrics get a discount (which I can see happening logically asserting points drop as per all other books) we can assume a rubric being 17-19 after bolter in our book. I would imagine 18 to be exact even with a Intercessor.
That + Strategems + Legion Tactic + Warlord trait + any spell buffs we will get + Aura effects.....we will be fine. Rubrics should be fairly dangerous with all of these benefits stacking. I would imagine as far as "marines" in 8th edition go (which are to be fair mediocre in most circumstances mathematically) they will be the top of that pile, or near to it.
These threads come up alot in altered forms everytime a codex is released (that updates an army). You will get the "This army is dead because X". I find most of the time it boils down to the real statement being " I want to play in competition and I cant do that unless I buy new models". Which in and of itself is a half true statement as GW certainly practices planned obsolescence in regards to its sales tactics of models. But my answer to these statements is that this is nothing new and GW has been doing this for years. You should know this information if you are really a competitive player.
Now another hidden symptom that causes these threads is that people dont want to have to change their army. This is even more profound in the case of 1ksons because the only offical list we got was in the tail end of 7th and it rewarded you big time for spamming rubrics and sorcs. SO alot of people built their army around that. Now that our 8th edition codex is on the horizon it is likely that it will change the focus of the army. Be it financial or personal reasons, some players just loathe the idea of changing their armies.
You would be suprised the kinda far out stuff people will come up with to obfuscate the above statements.
Caederes wrote: Of course they are. What on earth gave you the idea that I would say otherwise?
Do you think GW would leave the testing of an extremely game changing rule to a group of undetermined unknowns who may or may not bring an Army which feels the affect of the new rule?
Thousand Sons Sorceror and Formosa, I'll reply when I have the time on my hands
Torga_DW wrote:And that there is the big thing. No models, no rules. Pay up! Welcome to gw. I hear stockholm syndrome thrown around a lot in this hhhoby, but i'll tell you what. There are times when it seems pretty much believable.
If you want to blame anyone for the no model = no rules situation, blame Chapterhouse. They pushed the limit too far, and prompted GW into defending their IP.
GW probably should have tried to make models for all their units, but given the cost of making plastic kits, it's understandable why they didn't.
Blame Chapterhouse, not GW.
Torga_DW wrote:
Galas wrote: Guys, I understand. You wanted more TS options and more TS models.
It's a TS codex. Is the disappointment really that hard to understand?
And since 5th, you've over doubled how many Rubricae options you have, with new plastic kits.
Odds are Tzaangors will be classed as TS. So, what makes them not TS? That they're not Rubricae?
Good thing you can take a list without needing Tzaangors in it.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Thousand Sons Sorceror and Formosa, I'll reply when I have the time on my hands
Torga_DW wrote:And that there is the big thing. No models, no rules. Pay up! Welcome to gw. I hear stockholm syndrome thrown around a lot in this hhhoby, but i'll tell you what. There are times when it seems pretty much believable.
If you want to blame anyone for the no model = no rules situation, blame Chapterhouse. They pushed the limit too far, and prompted GW into defending their IP.
GW probably should have tried to make models for all their units, but given the cost of making plastic kits, it's understandable why they didn't.
Blame Chapterhouse, not GW.
Torga_DW wrote:
Galas wrote: Guys, I understand. You wanted more TS options and more TS models.
It's a TS codex. Is the disappointment really that hard to understand?
And since 5th, you've over doubled how many Rubricae options you have, with new plastic kits.
Odds are Tzaangors will be classed as TS. So, what makes them not TS? That they're not Rubricae?
Good thing you can take a list without needing Tzaangors in it.
Sorry but no, I blame GW for both the policy and sueing another company for ip infringement, a company that was not infringing there ip because they in fact did not own a lot of the ip they claimed to, it was a direct result of GWS bullying tactics, and I hold them responsible.
Simple tzaangors are as much thousand sons as cadians are ultramarines, it's a force alongside a faction fighting to aid it, not a part of the same faction, you can add the thousand sons keyword but they are not thousand sons.
I actually agree that Rubrics logically could have more squad types with different weapons. And trust me, I too hate the 'no model, no rules' policy with burning passion. But this is not a TS specific issue, it is general GW issue.
I really wish FW would step up, and provide conversion kits to go with some GW's plastic infantry kits (not only TS, but for them too) and then provide rules for them. But traditionally they've been super lazy at providing 40K rules for stuff that is not vehicles.
Crimson wrote: I actually agree that Rubrics logically could have more squad types with different weapons. And trust me, I too hat the 'no model, no rules' policy with burning passion. But this is not a TS specific issue, it is general GW issue.
I really wish FW would step up, and provide conversion kits to go with some GW's plastic infantry kits (not only TS, but for them too) and then provide rules for them. But traditionally they've been super lazy at providing 40K rules for stuff that is not vehicles.
You mean Space Marines.
I've got plenty of Admech vehicles collecting dust that would LOVE 40k rules.
I've got plenty of Admech vehicles collecting dust that would LOVE 40k rules.
Yeah... I have a unbuilt box of Thallax that have been waiting for 40K rules for years. It just feels to me that FW doesn't want to sell their models.
They are just the ultimate in the self-fulfilling prophecy that is the old GW attitude:
"We find that the people who buy our models aren't interested in the rules, or the quality of the rules. Which is exactly why we treat the rules as an afterthought, when we bother to provide them, and frequently when we do they prevent the models from being used in the game at all. We are certain that there is no causal link between the second statement and the first, at all. Can we interest you in any of our several hundred variant dreadnought kits?"
Crimson wrote: I actually agree that Rubrics logically could have more squad types with different weapons. And trust me, I too hat the 'no model, no rules' policy with burning passion. But this is not a TS specific issue, it is general GW issue.
I really wish FW would step up, and provide conversion kits to go with some GW's plastic infantry kits (not only TS, but for them too) and then provide rules for them. But traditionally they've been super lazy at providing 40K rules for stuff that is not vehicles.
This is pretty much how I see it too.
I like the tzaangors, I like that they are added to the codex, it is fluffy, I don't like that rubrics are only in one slot when they could easily fill 3 or more with little to no effort on gws behalf.
What I don't want is a straight port of the legions list to 40k, but I do want parts of it to show through in chaos marines, while it may not be the most points efficient I would like to see tac squads all being Bolters and no heavies or specials (which we can already do if we choose to), special weapon squads which space marines now have (hellblasters) and all heavy havocs, cataphractii termies and tartorus termites in elite (dark angels and chaos are he only ones who should have had it straight away), it's all over the place at the moment
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Okay here is my challange to you I want you to build a CSM army without any CSM in it none at all. A battle forged army that could win some games. Once your done with that just pick another army at random and build that without using any thing in the Title. So an ork Army with no Orks, Daemon Army with no Daemons, Tau Army with no Tau (this is the closest you will get, and by the way there are 4 Kroot units and 3 TS units. So an Auxiliary has more units then an army).
Okay.
Cultist horde and Daemon Engines, lead by a Daemon Prince.
Grot revolution list (something I find really cool!) - Gretchin, Ork Artillery, Grot Tanks.
Daemon army with no Daemons is impossible, given that Daemons make up 100% of the list. There's no other choice. Not the same as this, considering that there's enough Rubricae in the TS codex to make a Battalion.
Tau army with no Tau - Kroot and Vespid, including Knarlocs, Hounds and Riders.
You were saying?
TS have HQ and Troops. The most BASIC detachment in the game can be fulfilled by this.
Winning all depends on what you're playing against. A mirror match? A friendly pickup game? A tournament tier list? Even IF Rubricae was the only thing in the TS army, and consisted of a good range of units, they could still lose against a friendly pickup game if the 'dex was underpowered anyway.
Realistically, the entire SM codex could be reduced to Guilliman, Stormravens and Razorbacks, and it would be more competitive than most lists.
So - what was your point?
Chaos Space Marines (Possible)
Chaos Daemons (Not Possible)
Dark Eldar (Not Possible)
Craftworld Eldar(Not Possible)
Eldar Harlequins(Not Possible)
Necrons (Not Possible)
Orks (Almost Possible HQ has to be Ork)
Tau Empire ( almost Possible HQ has to be Tau)
Tyranids (Not Possible)
Genestealer Cults (Not Possible)
Space Marines (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, Ultramarines and Space Wolves each have their own chapter Codex.)(Not Possible)
Astra Militarum (Imperial Guard) (Not Possible)
Militarum Tempestus (Stormtroopers) (Possible)
Inquisition (Not Possible)
Adepta Sororitas (Sisters of Battle) (Not Possible)
Imperial Knights (Not Possible)
Skitarii (Troops of Adeptus Mechanicus) (Not Possible)
Cult Mechanicus (Priesthood of Adeptus Mechanicus) (Not Possible)
Being intentionally obtuse doesn't make you smart. You also managed to randomly pick the only other 2 out of 20 factions that can come close, but aren't actually able to accomplish it. What are the odds?
Sorry, I was just working with the factions you gave me at the start. Still - I did what you said. Most of the other factions listed don't even have a "type" split in the list which can be exploited (ie. Knights or Inquisition). So, if you'd like, I could do one with pretty much any list which does have a split. And again, if we're supporting my "winning doesn't matter" claim, then I could build anything with just 1 unit, just spamming the auxiliary detachment over and over again. I'd probably get no CP, but you can still win without them.
To the people who keep saying "oh you just want Spiky Marines" please stop its not an argument, and you sound childish. SM have literally everything. You guys have so much crap they ran out of gak to give to you and what did they do focus on other factions? Nope Adeptus Restartes. Whole line of them. Asking for a heavy weapons squad isnt exactly out of this world. Damn near every army has a heavy weapons squad, why cant we have one? The models exist. It would allow you to not have to buy 2 boxes of Rubrics to get 2 Soul Reaper Cannons.
Custodes are just as much Space Marine as Sisters are - just the opposite side of the spectrum. If SoB got a release, would you call them SM? No - so why do Custodes matter here?
I was talking about NuMarines you know the entirely new line of space marines which didn't exist at all anywhere even in lore up until a year ago?
My mistake, I though you were referring to Custodes.
Although, to be fair, the Primaris are going to be GW's main focus for Space Marines now, loyalist or not.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Want a list of armies without heavy weapons squads? Nurgle, for one. Tempestus Militarum. Custodes, presumably. Assassins. Inquisition. Sisters of Silence. Harlequins. Genestealer Cults.
All of the above are "sub-factions" - few units, very specialised. I think TS fits in that category too, given how GW is treating them.
Lets see which of these factions screams needs a heavy weapons squad. Assassins hmm m seems subtlety is more their thing. Custodes are a melee focused army and rely more on speed then firepower, Genestealer Cults do have heavy weapons they are just embedded into the squads and come in melee form (go figure with an army that can pop up anywhere on the map), Harlequins are again a fast melee focused unit that rely on being in the enemies face, they also have melta pistols. Inquisition seems like they are a Psyker Melee army, but sure they could have a heavy weapons squad don't see why not, Nurgle again a melee monster, Sisters they have some pretty cool unique stuff with Rhinos, but yeah they could probably use a heavy weapons squad (and probably more), not to familiar with them though.
And Thousand Sons are a psyker army. Why should they need heavy weapons then? This argument fails when, like you, you want your guys to have some potential in heavy firepower. I mean, if not, why would you want it?
Plus, like genestealer cults, Thousand Sons "do have heavy weapons they are just embedded into the squads". Sorted.
Also, sorry, Sisters have unique stuff with Rhinos? The Sisters of Silence have three units, plus one single generic Rhino. It's heaviest weapon is a hunter killer missile upgrade.
So, your statement about "damn near every army has heavy weapons squads" - not quite true. The biggest armies do, yes - but they're all the big armies. The smaller ones, which TS slot into, lack them.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: [spoiler]Also, if you're complaining about the Soulreapers being limited, how about Deathwatch? 1 Infernus Heavy Bolter and 1 Frag Cannon per box too - does that Deathwatch to "no heavy weapon teams" as well?
Thousand Sons aren't being treated like the main Space Marine codex, because GW sees them more like the other "splinter" faction armies.
Again, being intentionally obtuse doesn't make you smart.
Excuse me, could you elaborate on this? Where am I obtuse?
I'm just pointing out that Deathwatch have a similar heavy weapons kit situation.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: If you want to oppose the TS being treated as a splinter army instead, that's fine, but I would hope you also supported the other splinter armies being upgraded too.
You act like I'm asking for 10 new kits all I was thinking personally was 1 new kit which they already have the rules and the models for just mash it together and make it a unit, and maybe a cheap HQ with an Aura. I don't even think we should have a fast attack.
Given the outrage people seem to having in this thread, I doubt that one single unit would make that all better.
I could be wrong.
Plus, won't there be a cheap Tzaangor HQ for that aura effect?
Formosa wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: As far as I see it, Thousand Sons players have only gotten more units. If you don't want to use the Tzaangors, don't.
If you want to play 30k, play 30k. GW has made it clear that the 40k Thousand Sons are Rubricae and are a different beast than what they were 10,000 years ago.
The complaints of "what happened to all their heavy weapon teams? what about their sweet heresy era stuff?!" - same as what happened to the rest of the CSM list. I can't say I agree on them losing their heresy era stuff any more so than the rest of the CSM list, but there's no reason the TS should get it and the rest of the Traitor Legions shouldn't.
Regarding the heavy weapon teams, even if we assume then that all the heavy weapons left are the soulreaper cannons and that THEY should be grouped into one unit - why can't I do that with all the plasma guns on my Tactical Marines? An all plasma tac squad, why not?
Squads aren't grouped logically - it's GW's old "normal guys with a special weapon thrown in" formula. It's the same for everyone, not just TS.
Realistically, the TS can't just be CSM+Tzeentch. There would be no reason to take CSM. Same way CSM can't just be SM+daemons.
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but considering TS used to have two units until fair recently (Rubricae and Ahriman), I don't understand why people are so up in arms. You didn't lose anything from your 40k lists. If you played full Rubric TS, then you only had one unit really to use - there's nothing stopping you from doing that still.
If you're saying that makes you underpowered, then how about an AM player who takes an all Rough-Rider force? After all, they COULD use the rest of their book, but they want to use what they want. Does that make AM bad?
I can answer those questions.
Firstly the other legions DO have these weapons, so dont know where your coming from on that, autocannon havocs, plasma guns etc. its all there bar a few heresy specific weapons like volkites.
I more meant things like jetbikes, speeders, quad mortars, cataphractii and tartaros armour, conversion beamers, Apothecaries.
Why cant space marines band together to have "special weapon squads", simple, the codex, it defined how marines can fight, secondly, they can, they are called hellblasters, Chaos does not follow the codex, except for some reason they do???? that has been a bug bear of mine for a while, 4 heavies to a havoc squad, 1 heavy and 1 special in a tac squad, thats codex space marines and fits that fluff, this is not how the legions fought, so that needs explaining.
Helblasters represent a newly formed development in the Codex from Guilliman himself. They're new, and not to mention, Primaris only.
Maybe the Legions can only do 1 special and heavy because of a lack of resources? Maybe they think it's more tactically flexible.
The same reasoning which stops my Space Marine Captain picking up a lascannon, the same reasoning that stops Imperial Guard sergeants holding lasguns, the same logic that stops a Deathwatch Marine from how to use a grav-weapon. Because GW says so, and it's a consistent theme for Troops units to have 1 special and/or heavy (even though I could easily equip them all with the special weapon).
As to why have people only being saying this recently, thats not true at all, its something we have been saying since 3rd, Thousand sons should have access to the same units as Chaos marines but some of these should be represented by Rubricai.
The problem is that if you could just do "Rubric X", then why would you realistically take the normal one? Unless the Rubric variant had significant negative effects or a large points mark-up, people would just take "Rubric X" instead of "X". And that's ignoring GW consciously wanting to specialise what the Rubricae represent.
It boils down to wanting more Thousand sons representation in the Thousand sons codex, I have no issue with the addition of Tzaangors, but Thousand sons need more representation too, something that is very easy to implement and fits the fluff, this "no model no rules" crap is the real issue here.
Why aren't Tzaangors Thousand Sons? I mean, they're in their codex, probably will have the <Thousand Sons> keyword - what gives?
Did you mean "Rubricae" need more representation? GW seem to be implying that there are little Rubricae left, being sorted into Scarab Occult and Rubric Marines squads. If, in their setting, they want to push the idea that the Thousand Sons lack more specialised units, that's their design choice.
Tzaangors are not Thousand sons, they are in the codex, that is it, I even bet they will lack the "thousand sons" keyword.
We shall see. Would you wish to bet?
Also, still waiting on an answer about that Rough Rider situation.
Formosa wrote:Sorry but no, I blame GW for both the policy and sueing another company for ip infringement, a company that was not infringing there ip because they in fact did not own a lot of the ip they claimed to, it was a direct result of GWS bullying tactics, and I hold them responsible.
You're welcome to choose to blame who you want, but considering other companies had done the Chapterhouse trick before and GW hadn't gone after them, it is on Chapterhouse for them "poking the bear" too hard.
GW took action to defend their IP - the courts ruled what was and wasn't their IP, and GW then removed whatever they could that wasn't legally defendable. GW didn't bully anyone - they defended what they owned. If they didn't own it, then they changed the name so they could. That's called business.
You can say what you like, but the catalyst for it is on Chapterhouse, like it or not.
Simple tzaangors are as much thousand sons as cadians are ultramarines, it's a force alongside a faction fighting to aid it, not a part of the same faction, you can add the thousand sons keyword but they are not thousand sons.
That's a lie and you know it.
Shall we compare?
Ultramarines share the <Imperium> keyword with the Cadians, and aren't even in the same book. That's it. Fluff wise, they share even less - Cadians "were" located in majority around the Cadian gate, now largely scattered. The Ultramarines are focussed as far away from the Cadian Gate as it s possible to be. So no, not similar really.
Tzaangors will most likely share the <Chaos> and <Tzeentch> keywords, and probably even the <Thousand Sons> keyword, as well as being in the same codex. So, vastly more similar.
You'd be better off comparing the Tzaangors being as much Thousand Sons as Space Marine Scouts or Servitors to normal Tactical Marines - aka, very similar.
Unless you can prove to me that they do lack the <Thousand Sons> keyword, I don't think I agree with your opinion.
Crimson wrote: I actually agree that Rubrics logically could have more squad types with different weapons. And trust me, I too hat the 'no model, no rules' policy with burning passion. But this is not a TS specific issue, it is general GW issue.
I really wish FW would step up, and provide conversion kits to go with some GW's plastic infantry kits (not only TS, but for them too) and then provide rules for them. But traditionally they've been super lazy at providing 40K rules for stuff that is not vehicles.
This is pretty much how I see it too.
I like the tzaangors, I like that they are added to the codex, it is fluffy, I don't like that rubrics are only in one slot when they could easily fill 3 or more with little to no effort on gws behalf.
What I don't want is a straight port of the legions list to 40k, but I do want parts of it to show through in chaos marines, while it may not be the most points efficient I would like to see tac squads all being Bolters and no heavies or specials (which we can already do if we choose to), special weapon squads which space marines now have (hellblasters) and all heavy havocs, cataphractii termies and tartorus termites in elite (dark angels and chaos are he only ones who should have had it straight away), it's all over the place at the moment
Try thinking of it this way. The faction is not called Rubric Marines, Rubric marines are one part of a whole of what the faction IS called, and that is Thousand Suns. I pulled out my copy of Wrath of Magnus a hour or two ago to re-read it and one entire page is dedicated to the makeup of the faction. Rubrics are indeed just one facet of the whole. I think the problem is that people bought into the rubric porn GW has pushed in the past. The models did not exist to represent the other components outside of preds, rhinos and land raiders. And this bears repeating. Whom is driving those vehicles? Is it rubric marines? No.
As for chapter house and NMNR. It is just something we are going to have to deal with. It is not going away. And I feel that good portion of the blame should fall on chapter houses shoulders.
Psyker heavy army, but why would you need heavy weapons?
Probably because as a Psyker heavy army we still don't have many psykers in any given army unless you spam the hell out of them. And with Smite nerf, you're not going to be doing much damage anyway
Maybe the Legions can only do 1 special and heavy because of a lack of resources?
Then they are dead/dying and should be put to rest. There's no way they could hold their own in this universe of war. They have their bolters, and you dont NEED them for anything that the other chaos models couldn't do better.
The problem is that if you could just do "Rubric X", then why would you realistically take the normal one? Unless the Rubric variant had significant negative effects or a large points mark-up, people would just take "Rubric X" instead of "X". And that's ignoring GW consciously wanting to specialise what the Rubricae represent.
Why take tac marines when you can take devastators?
Did you mean "Rubricae" need more representation? GW seem to be implying that there are little Rubricae left, being sorted into Scarab Occult and Rubric Marines squads. If, in their setting, they want to push the idea that the Thousand Sons lack more specialised units, that's their design choice.
They say about 700 legionnaires. Each chapter of space marines only have 1,000. Not that much different. And that's not including Ahriman's band of merry robots.
Psyker heavy army, but why would you need heavy weapons?
Probably because as a Psyker heavy army we still don't have many psykers in any given army unless you spam the hell out of them. And with Smite nerf, you're not going to be doing much damage anyway
Then the psyker situation should probably be amended. A different situation, to be sure, but still no actual need to heavy weapons - besides, the responses to why certain armies didn't have heavy weapons was under similar situations.
Maybe the Legions can only do 1 special and heavy because of a lack of resources?
Then they are dead/dying and should be put to rest. There's no way they could hold their own in this universe of war. They have their bolters, and you dont NEED them for anything that the other chaos models couldn't do better.
In which case what about normal Space Marines? Should they be put to rest, if they can only do the same?
GW insists that units should have a single special or heavy, unless you happen to be a more "elite" unit (Veterans, Tempestus, Sternguard).
The problem is that if you could just do "Rubric X", then why would you realistically take the normal one? Unless the Rubric variant had significant negative effects or a large points mark-up, people would just take "Rubric X" instead of "X". And that's ignoring GW consciously wanting to specialise what the Rubricae represent.
Why take tac marines when you can take devastators?
Exactly - if unit role didn't matter, there'd be little reason to ever take Tacticals.
Tacs are good for two things - filling out Troops choices and providing extra wounds for a single heavy or special weapon, which Devastators can still do.
If people could take Devastators as Troops, I can wholeheartedly say they probably would.
Did you mean "Rubricae" need more representation? GW seem to be implying that there are little Rubricae left, being sorted into Scarab Occult and Rubric Marines squads. If, in their setting, they want to push the idea that the Thousand Sons lack more specialised units, that's their design choice.
They say about 700 legionnaires. Each chapter of space marines only have 1,000. Not that much different. And that's not including Ahriman's band of merry robots.
Is that 700 Legionnaries under Magnus' direct influence? Or 700 across the whole galaxy?
Regardless, GW can easily claim that those 700 are all Rubric Marines or Scarab Occult. Not that hard.
None of the points you made made any sense... or they completely missed the point being made.
If thousand sons have lost all their heavy weapons, and they are such low numbers, then they should be put to rest. Regular marines have large numbers of special squads (vanguard vets, assault marines, tac marines, devastators, etc etc) while Thousand Sons only have plain rubrics. So they have low numbers, low resources, low choices. Kill them off, they can't survive.
Accordingly that's 700 total. Including Ahrimans cadre. So kill them off.
No, what I'd like to see is a low point cost but limit how many you're allowed to take. And give more options. Like for example, and not nearly thought about enough to balance, but say 14 points per including guns, but limiting it to two squads max to represent their important but limited in numbers. Expand the options out some. Put Rubrics in other slots, but make them limited like above. Maybe one squad of "devastators" to show how hard they are to find. But allow a Thousand Sons player to have a Rubric army with at least some decent numbers, then if they want a larger army, flesh it out with Gors.
If thousand sons have lost all their heavy weapons, and they are such low numbers, then they should be put to rest. Regular marines have large numbers of special squads (vanguard vets, assault marines, tac marines, devastators, etc etc) while Thousand Sons only have plain rubrics. So they have low numbers, low resources, low choices. Kill them off, they can't survive.
They can survive, if they employ servants such as Tzaangors!
Some of this feels like pure unadulterated arguing for the sake of it. Its like getting mad that Poxwalkers, Blight Haulers, and Blight Drones are in the Death Guard codex even though they are not Death Guard Marines.
It really does seem like some would have a better time simply using the Chaos Space Marines codex and painting up their force as a "Thousand Sons", gaining access to models like Havoks and Raptors, and make up a fluffy backstory reason as to why your particular Thousand Sons force works like that.
If thousand sons have lost all their heavy weapons, and they are such low numbers, then they should be put to rest. Regular marines have large numbers of special squads (vanguard vets, assault marines, tac marines, devastators, etc etc) while Thousand Sons only have plain rubrics. So they have low numbers, low resources, low choices. Kill them off, they can't survive.
They can survive, if they employ servants such as Tzaangors!
Once again. I have nothing against taking Tzaangors. I have something against have more Tzaangor units in my codex than Thousand Sons marines.
nintura wrote: Because those arguing against it do not seem to understand.
You argue that as written TS have too low numbers and too little variety to survive. Both of these things are actually supported by the fluff, and it is this exact reason why they have servants and probably rely on them much more than many other CSM armies.
So it seems to me that the rules reflect their fluff just fine.
nintura wrote: No. See? That's why we are going in circle. We are upset because we now have 4 Gor units and only 2 Rubric units in a codex for Thousand Sons.
nintura wrote: No. See? That's why we are going in circle. We are upset because we now have 4 Gor units and only 2 Rubric units in a codex for Thousand Sons.
Which fits the fluff. Problem?
No it doesnt... Yes, they CAN use Gor's. They shouldnt be MOSTLY gors.
No it doesnt... Yes, they CAN use Gor's. They shouldnt be MOSTLY gors.
If there are only about 700 rubrics, then they totally are mostly gors! But of course you're perfectly free to choose the preferred gor/rubric ration for your own force. If you think there should be more rubrics than gors then take more rubrics than gors. How bloody hard can that be?
No it doesnt... Yes, they CAN use Gor's. They shouldnt be MOSTLY gors.
If there are only about 700 rubrics, then they totally are mostly gors! But of course you're perfectly free to choose the preferred gor/rubric ration for your own force. If you think there should be more rubrics than gors then take more rubrics than gors. How bloody hard can that be?
So by your logic every space marine army being played should be 50% or more IG? Glad that settles that.
Even as someone who mostly likes the AoS inclusions I think it's reasonable to be unhappy... I would expect that most people who got into Thousand Sons did so because they thought Rubric Marines are cool (I know that's why I started the army). If you like Rubrics but don't like Tzaangors and running a Thousand Sons list ends up meaning that you have to run mostly Tzaangors, then you're not playing the army you signed up for. I think it's all right to be upset about that.
No it doesnt... Yes, they CAN use Gor's. They shouldnt be MOSTLY gors.
If there are only about 700 rubrics, then they totally are mostly gors! But of course you're perfectly free to choose the preferred gor/rubric ration for your own force. If you think there should be more rubrics than gors then take more rubrics than gors. How bloody hard can that be?
So by your logic every space marine army being played should be 50% or more IG? Glad that settles that.
No, I have the choice if I want to represent that. Which I can.
However, you'd know that Space Marines can work independently of the AM - which is reflected in the rules.
TS can work independently of their Gors. Which you can do. You have Rubric HQ and Troops. What's stopping you?
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Arachnofiend wrote: Even as someone who mostly likes the AoS inclusions I think it's reasonable to be unhappy... I would expect that most people who got into Thousand Sons did so because they thought Rubric Marines are cool (I know that's why I started the army). If you like Rubrics but don't like Tzaangors and running a Thousand Sons list ends up meaning that you have to run mostly Tzaangors, then you're not playing the army you signed up for. I think it's all right to be upset about that.
When most people got into Thousand Sons, they were never a standalone army. Rubric Marines was the only actual option you got for proper TS until 6th/7th(?).
You can still play pure Rubric. You just have other options. Fluffy options.
Why cant it be viable fluff that Thousand Sons forces are NOT just vanilla Chaos Space Marines+Better Sorcery+Blue with gold scarabs?
I don't understand why it's wrong to establish concretely that what makes them unique is that remaining Thousand Sons forces field much less Terminator and Power armor suits (at least that aren't being worn by a Sorcerer) because it's so hard to make new Rubrics/the numbers of original Rubrics are dwindling? I'm not hugely up to date with 7th edition onwards, but does this fact conflict with anything previously written about post-Heresy Thousand Sons?
Even if the new codex had a unit entry for say, squads of Thousand Sons Havoks (and somehow in this day and age of GW had something other than just 4x Soulreaper Cannons), wouldn't some of us still be adamant about how "Pfft, Tzaangors are just a cheap port of AoS models into 40k, and also they aren't Thousand Sons so they shouldn't be in the Thousand Sons codex"?
it's not like any existing Thousand Sons players are having their armies scrapped by this new Codex and the rumors of how it is laid out. If you were ok with an army made from the three kits (likely backed up by some Tzeench Daemons, but that's just how I imagine a TSons army being fielded), it's likely you can just keep doing the same thing by never buying any Tzaangors.
AegisGrimm wrote: Why cant it be viable fluff that Thousand Sons forces are NOT just vanilla Chaos Space Marines+Better Sorcery+Blue with gold scarabs?
I don't understand why it's wrong to establish concretely that what makes them unique is that remaining Thousand Sons forces field much less Terminator and Power armor suits (at least that aren't being worn by a Sorcerer) because it's so hard to make new Rubrics/the numbers of original Rubrics are dwindling? I'm not hugely up to date with 7th edition onwards, but does this fact conflict with anything previously written about post-Heresy Thousand Sons?
Even if the new codex had a unit entry for say, squads of Thousand Sons Havoks (and somehow in this day and age of GW had something other than just 4x Soulreaper Cannons), wouldn't some of us still be adamant about how "Pfft, Tzaangors are just a cheap port of AoS models into 40k, and also they aren't Thousand Sons so they shouldn't be in the Thousand Sons codex"?
Simple: feth the lore, Rubrics are cool and that's what Thousand Sons players want to field. I can't believe I'm arguing on the same side as Thousand-Sons-Sorcerer at this point but NOBODY got into this army because they really wanted to play beastmen.
No, I got into Thousand Sons because the fluff was awesome, the Rubrics were awesome, and they are supposed to have a ton of powerful psykers. That's all virtually moot now as we are required to take gors for fodder, daemon machines for melee and tank busting. Our psychic phase is nearly a joke as we dont get many at all anymore.
nintura wrote: No. See? That's why we are going in circle. We are upset because we now have 4 Gor units and only 2 Rubric units in a codex for Thousand Sons.
Which fits the fluff. Problem?
No it doesnt... Yes, they CAN use Gor's. They shouldnt be MOSTLY gors.
Fluff wise? The armies led by the thousand son sorcerers have far fewer rubrics than they do tzaangors. The thousand sons are no longer a faction or army that consist primarily of marines, it is a force led by marines. That's both true in fluff and seems to be how this codex was written. This is a codex that combines functionality and fluff in a good way.
AegisGrimm wrote:Some of this feels like pure unadulterated arguing for the sake of it. Its like getting mad that Poxwalkers, Blight Haulers, and Blight Drones are in the Death Guard codex even though they are not Death Guard Marines.
It really does seem like some would have a better time simply using the Chaos Space Marines codex and painting up their force as a "Thousand Sons", gaining access to models like Havoks and Raptors, and make up a fluffy backstory reason as to why your particular Thousand Sons force works like that.
The difference is Blight Haulers augment PMs directly and PM can fill 4 different roles depending on the load out, they also got 2 kinds of Terminators, multiple aura units, all of which are Death Guard.
It would be more like they introduce Poxwalkers and then later introduce 3 variants of Poxwalkers to fill out the army while leaving the PM only filling 2 roles.
Crimson wrote:They can survive, if they employ servants such as Tzaangors!
Thats fine SOME Tzaangors are fine not 2/3s the army though. At that point im not playing a TS army with Tzaangor Support, Im playing a Tzaangor Army with TS support.
Crimson wrote:
nintura wrote: No. See? That's why we are going in circle. We are upset because we now have 4 Gor units and only 2 Rubric units in a codex for Thousand Sons.
Which fits the fluff. Problem?
That is not how the army has played on the table, and that doesnt reflect the fluff. Fluff is lots of Tzaangors and mostly Rubrics they were used as Fodder not to full multiple roles.
nintura wrote: No. See? That's why we are going in circle. We are upset because we now have 4 Gor units and only 2 Rubric units in a codex for Thousand Sons.
Which fits the fluff. Problem?
No it doesnt... Yes, they CAN use Gor's. They shouldnt be MOSTLY gors.
Fluff wise? The armies led by the thousand son sorcerers have far fewer rubrics than they do tzaangors. The thousand sons are no longer a faction or army that consist primarily of marines, it is a force led by marines. That's both true in fluff and seems to be how this codex was written. This is a codex that combines functionality and fluff in a good way.
More in Bodies yes but from a points perspective I shouldnt be spending more points on Tzaangors then Rubrics.
AegisGrimm wrote: Why cant it be viable fluff that Thousand Sons forces are NOT just vanilla Chaos Space Marines+Better Sorcery+Blue with gold scarabs?
I don't understand why it's wrong to establish concretely that what makes them unique is that remaining Thousand Sons forces field much less Terminator and Power armor suits (at least that aren't being worn by a Sorcerer) because it's so hard to make new Rubrics/the numbers of original Rubrics are dwindling? I'm not hugely up to date with 7th edition onwards, but does this fact conflict with anything previously written about post-Heresy Thousand Sons?
Even if the new codex had a unit entry for say, squads of Thousand Sons Havoks (and somehow in this day and age of GW had something other than just 4x Soulreaper Cannons), wouldn't some of us still be adamant about how "Pfft, Tzaangors are just a cheap port of AoS models into 40k, and also they aren't Thousand Sons so they shouldn't be in the Thousand Sons codex"?
it's not like any existing Thousand Sons players are having their armies scrapped by this new Codex and the rumors of how it is laid out. If you were ok with an army made from the three kits (likely backed up by some Tzeench Daemons, but that's just how I imagine a TSons army being fielded), it's likely you can just keep doing the same thing by never buying any Tzaangors.
No, we really wouldn't be pissed if we had a decent array of actual thousand sons, it would be in the realm of "meh, not doing much for me but whatever"
But as we DONT have a proper array of the actual thousand sons, getting the gors DOES cripple anyone who wants to field "pure" thousand sons, by the fact the presence of the gors makes it far less likely we'll get anything to cover our (many) holes in our "pure" rooster.
Especially when so many things that already exist in models (though forgeworld and technically 30k, except the snipers who yet to have models but it applies to them too-guys be psykers, they are not rubricated.) or are VERY easy to implement with simple upgrade kits or even build out of existing kits (rubric havoc variant, some elite grade characters out of the exalted kit, etc-and given the nemesis grandmaster, you can't use the "no official model no rules" excuse.) so actually giving us the thing we actually wanted would have been really, really easy.
And if they WANTED to expand and make cool new toys, that too would be easy by creating new kits that are made nearly entirely out of bits taken from hybrids of existing kits reshuffled in new sprues, the easiest would be havok variant who are just rubrics with more cannons on sprue (and maybe a handful of new heavies ported over from CSM/IoM "basics" armory and added as a heavy option for regular rubrics, not like we lack cases where a heavy gun the basic trooper can get 1 of isn't in the kit.), but disk-mounted rubrics would be simple (use the gor disks, and rubrics-all you need is maybe a new weapon), so would CC rubrics (rubrics with swords from exalted kit) making such hybrid kits in the 3d software that makes sprues takes hardly any time-you can easily make all preparations for this kind of release (rules, sprue design and box design) in less of a day's work of one employee in each category-and we would be rejoicing. (well, technically each employee will work on a different day, as the box art dude has to wait for the models to be made and painted to make the box-but still a day each.)
GW kina dropped the ball with this entire release/announcement thingy.
TS would have been a tiny effort to expand upon in the direction the fans actually wanted. heck, even with zero new kits-we could have gotten enough to pacify us by simply turning existing kits to more slates (EASY to do-but confirmed not to.)
Custodians on the other hand-should not even be released yet. the release that could be amazing got sour because it begs the question "are you seriusly bringing a new army before multiple existing armies getting codcies? and its basically more IoM space marine variants?". its a real slap in the face to all tau/ork/necron/Deldar/harlequin players. thousand sons and wolves less so (and they got CSM/codex marines to work with in the meantime if they want) but also a bit.
Had they released them as the first codex right after the entire cycle of 8th codcies been released, this release (same models, same rules, same everything) would have been accepted FAR better by the crowds.
But this timing, is just poor.
AegisGrimm wrote: Why cant it be viable fluff that Thousand Sons forces are NOT just vanilla Chaos Space Marines+Better Sorcery+Blue with gold scarabs?
I don't understand why it's wrong to establish concretely that what makes them unique is that remaining Thousand Sons forces field much less Terminator and Power armor suits (at least that aren't being worn by a Sorcerer) because it's so hard to make new Rubrics/the numbers of original Rubrics are dwindling? I'm not hugely up to date with 7th edition onwards, but does this fact conflict with anything previously written about post-Heresy Thousand Sons?
Even if the new codex had a unit entry for say, squads of Thousand Sons Havoks (and somehow in this day and age of GW had something other than just 4x Soulreaper Cannons), wouldn't some of us still be adamant about how "Pfft, Tzaangors are just a cheap port of AoS models into 40k, and also they aren't Thousand Sons so they shouldn't be in the Thousand Sons codex"?
Simple: feth the lore, Rubrics are cool and that's what Thousand Sons players want to field. I can't believe I'm arguing on the same side as Thousand-Sons-Sorcerer at this point but NOBODY got into this army because they really wanted to play beastmen.
This, they can easily retcon the lore so they are able to at least maintain the numbers they have, hell watch this
Restored Sons - TS Rubrics which have been restored to their full selves, squads of 3 equip them with either Melee weapons or Heavy weapons, make them an Elites choice. Bam problem solved. they could even use the CSM box and just add some new items to it, you know like they did with the Tzaangors.
nintura wrote: No, I got into Thousand Sons because the fluff was awesome, the Rubrics were awesome, and they are supposed to have a ton of powerful psykers. That's all virtually moot now as we are required to take gors for fodder, daemon machines for melee and tank busting. Our psychic phase is nearly a joke as we dont get many at all anymore.
If you thought the fluff was awesome.. Yet somehow your fluff doesn't match the established fluff that the Tsons use a ton of auxiliary stuff in their armies.
"are you seriusly bringing a new army before multiple existing armies getting codcies?
Custodes got introduced in 7th, they just got expanded out in this edition. Just like Tsons!
AegisGrimm wrote: Why cant it be viable fluff that Thousand Sons forces are NOT just vanilla Chaos Space Marines+Better Sorcery+Blue with gold scarabs?
I don't understand why it's wrong to establish concretely that what makes them unique is that remaining Thousand Sons forces field much less Terminator and Power armor suits (at least that aren't being worn by a Sorcerer) because it's so hard to make new Rubrics/the numbers of original Rubrics are dwindling? I'm not hugely up to date with 7th edition onwards, but does this fact conflict with anything previously written about post-Heresy Thousand Sons?
Even if the new codex had a unit entry for say, squads of Thousand Sons Havoks (and somehow in this day and age of GW had something other than just 4x Soulreaper Cannons), wouldn't some of us still be adamant about how "Pfft, Tzaangors are just a cheap port of AoS models into 40k, and also they aren't Thousand Sons so they shouldn't be in the Thousand Sons codex"?
it's not like any existing Thousand Sons players are having their armies scrapped by this new Codex and the rumors of how it is laid out. If you were ok with an army made from the three kits (likely backed up by some Tzeench Daemons, but that's just how I imagine a TSons army being fielded), it's likely you can just keep doing the same thing by never buying any Tzaangors.
No, we really wouldn't be pissed if we had a decent array of actual thousand sons, it would be in the realm of "meh, not doing much for me but whatever"
But as we DONT have a proper array of the actual thousand sons, getting the gors DOES cripple anyone who wants to field "pure" thousand sons, by the fact the presence of the gors makes it far less likely we'll get anything to cover our (many) holes in our "pure" rooster.
Especially when so many things that already exist in models (though forgeworld and technically 30k, except the snipers who yet to have models but it applies to them too-guys be psykers, they are not rubricated.) or are VERY easy to implement with simple upgrade kits or even build out of existing kits (rubric havoc variant, some elite grade characters out of the exalted kit, etc-and given the nemesis grandmaster, you can't use the "no official model no rules" excuse.) so actually giving us the thing we actually wanted would have been really, really easy.
And if they WANTED to expand and make cool new toys, that too would be easy by creating new kits that are made nearly entirely out of bits taken from hybrids of existing kits reshuffled in new sprues, the easiest would be havok variant who are just rubrics with more cannons on sprue (and maybe a handful of new heavies ported over from CSM/IoM "basics" armory and added as a heavy option for regular rubrics, not like we lack cases where a heavy gun the basic trooper can get 1 of isn't in the kit.), but disk-mounted rubrics would be simple (use the gor disks, and rubrics-all you need is maybe a new weapon), so would CC rubrics (rubrics with swords from exalted kit) making such hybrid kits in the 3d software that makes sprues takes hardly any time-you can easily make all preparations for this kind of release (rules, sprue design and box design) in less of a day's work of one employee in each category-and we would be rejoicing. (well, technically each employee will work on a different day, as the box art dude has to wait for the models to be made and painted to make the box-but still a day each.)
GW kina dropped the ball with this entire release/announcement thingy.
TS would have been a tiny effort to expand upon in the direction the fans actually wanted. heck, even with zero new kits-we could have gotten enough to pacify us by simply turning existing kits to more slates (EASY to do-but confirmed not to.)
Custodians on the other hand-should not even be released yet. the release that could be amazing got sour because it begs the question "are you seriusly bringing a new army before multiple existing armies getting codcies? and its basically more IoM space marine variants?". its a real slap in the face to all tau/ork/necron/Deldar/harlequin players. thousand sons and wolves less so (and they got CSM/codex marines to work with in the meantime if they want) but also a bit.
Had they released them as the first codex right after the entire cycle of 8th codcies been released, this release (same models, same rules, same everything) would have been accepted FAR better by the crowds.
But this timing, is just poor.
nintura wrote: No, I got into Thousand Sons because the fluff was awesome, the Rubrics were awesome, and they are supposed to have a ton of powerful psykers. That's all virtually moot now as we are required to take gors for fodder, daemon machines for melee and tank busting. Our psychic phase is nearly a joke as we dont get many at all anymore.
If you thought the fluff was awesome.. Yet somehow your fluff doesn't match the established fluff that the Tsons use a ton of auxiliary stuff in their armies.
"are you seriusly bringing a new army before multiple existing armies getting codcies?
Custodes got introduced in 7th, they just got expanded out in this edition. Just like Tsons!
No.... the fluff of the Rubric. Magnus. Russ. Heresy. Sorcery. Falling to Tzeentch. All of that.
Death Guard: elite units supported by daemons and zombies and vehicles. Clearly unique and different from imperial armies to show their embrace of chaos. No one bats an eye, all good, cool gak.
Thousand Sons: elite units supported by daemons and beastmen and chaos beasts. Clearly unique and different from imperial armies to show their embrace of chaos. RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Look, guys, I do get that you want the full range of CSM, but you aren't going to get it. You're going to get a fluffy, unique, and frankly awesome army that will work on its own and even better with daemon allys potentially, just like Death Guard. And when Emp Children is announced later this year, they will more than likely get the same treatment: elites supported by daemons and boobs and SONIC BOOM!
This is what your army is now. I honestly cannot fathom how this thread has gone on so long. Either embrace the new fluff of your legion or play 30k.
Simple: feth the lore, Rubrics are cool and that's what Thousand Sons players want to field. I can't believe I'm arguing on the same side as Thousand-Sons-Sorcerer at this point but NOBODY got into this army because they really wanted to play beastmen.
Incorrect. I shat myself when Tzaangors made it into the SIlver Tower box and again when they made them available for 40K. The armies have come full circle to their "popular" roots.
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nintura wrote: No, I got into Thousand Sons because the fluff was awesome, the Rubrics were awesome, and they are supposed to have a ton of powerful psykers. That's all virtually moot now as we are required to take gors for fodder, daemon machines for melee and tank busting. Our psychic phase is nearly a joke as we dont get many at all anymore.
Not sure you can claim the phase is a joke when you don't have their lore in front of you. Past Tzeentch spells have been very damage focused. And, yes, if you want to be competitive you can't have your elite units bearing the brunt of he enemy attacks.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Okay here is my challange to you I want you to build a CSM army without any CSM in it none at all. A battle forged army that could win some games. Once your done with that just pick another army at random and build that without using any thing in the Title. So an ork Army with no Orks, Daemon Army with no Daemons, Tau Army with no Tau (this is the closest you will get, and by the way there are 4 Kroot units and 3 TS units. So an Auxiliary has more units then an army).
Okay.
Cultist horde and Daemon Engines, lead by a Daemon Prince.
Grot revolution list (something I find really cool!) - Gretchin, Ork Artillery, Grot Tanks.
Daemon army with no Daemons is impossible, given that Daemons make up 100% of the list. There's no other choice. Not the same as this, considering that there's enough Rubricae in the TS codex to make a Battalion.
Tau army with no Tau - Kroot and Vespid, including Knarlocs, Hounds and Riders.
You were saying?
TS have HQ and Troops. The most BASIC detachment in the game can be fulfilled by this.
Winning all depends on what you're playing against. A mirror match? A friendly pickup game? A tournament tier list? Even IF Rubricae was the only thing in the TS army, and consisted of a good range of units, they could still lose against a friendly pickup game if the 'dex was underpowered anyway.
Realistically, the entire SM codex could be reduced to Guilliman, Stormravens and Razorbacks, and it would be more competitive than most lists.
So - what was your point?
Chaos Space Marines (Possible)
Chaos Daemons (Not Possible)
Dark Eldar (Not Possible)
Craftworld Eldar(Not Possible)
Eldar Harlequins(Not Possible)
Necrons (Not Possible)
Orks (Almost Possible HQ has to be Ork)
Tau Empire ( almost Possible HQ has to be Tau)
Tyranids (Not Possible)
Genestealer Cults (Not Possible)
Space Marines (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, Ultramarines and Space Wolves each have their own chapter Codex.)(Not Possible)
Astra Militarum (Imperial Guard) (Not Possible)
Militarum Tempestus (Stormtroopers) (Possible)
Inquisition (Not Possible)
Adepta Sororitas (Sisters of Battle) (Not Possible)
Imperial Knights (Not Possible)
Skitarii (Troops of Adeptus Mechanicus) (Not Possible)
Cult Mechanicus (Priesthood of Adeptus Mechanicus) (Not Possible)
Being intentionally obtuse doesn't make you smart. You also managed to randomly pick the only other 2 out of 20 factions that can come close, but aren't actually able to accomplish it. What are the odds?
Sorry, I was just working with the factions you gave me at the start. Still - I did what you said. Most of the other factions listed don't even have a "type" split in the list which can be exploited (ie. Knights or Inquisition). So, if you'd like, I could do one with pretty much any list which does have a split. And again, if we're supporting my "winning doesn't matter" claim, then I could build anything with just 1 unit, just spamming the auxiliary detachment over and over again. I'd probably get no CP, but you can still win without them.
To the people who keep saying "oh you just want Spiky Marines" please stop its not an argument, and you sound childish. SM have literally everything. You guys have so much crap they ran out of gak to give to you and what did they do focus on other factions? Nope Adeptus Restartes. Whole line of them. Asking for a heavy weapons squad isnt exactly out of this world. Damn near every army has a heavy weapons squad, why cant we have one? The models exist. It would allow you to not have to buy 2 boxes of Rubrics to get 2 Soul Reaper Cannons.
Custodes are just as much Space Marine as Sisters are - just the opposite side of the spectrum. If SoB got a release, would you call them SM? No - so why do Custodes matter here?
I was talking about NuMarines you know the entirely new line of space marines which didn't exist at all anywhere even in lore up until a year ago?
My mistake, I though you were referring to Custodes.
Although, to be fair, the Primaris are going to be GW's main focus for Space Marines now, loyalist or not.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Want a list of armies without heavy weapons squads? Nurgle, for one. Tempestus Militarum. Custodes, presumably. Assassins. Inquisition. Sisters of Silence. Harlequins. Genestealer Cults.
All of the above are "sub-factions" - few units, very specialised. I think TS fits in that category too, given how GW is treating them.
Lets see which of these factions screams needs a heavy weapons squad. Assassins hmm m seems subtlety is more their thing. Custodes are a melee focused army and rely more on speed then firepower, Genestealer Cults do have heavy weapons they are just embedded into the squads and come in melee form (go figure with an army that can pop up anywhere on the map), Harlequins are again a fast melee focused unit that rely on being in the enemies face, they also have melta pistols. Inquisition seems like they are a Psyker Melee army, but sure they could have a heavy weapons squad don't see why not, Nurgle again a melee monster, Sisters they have some pretty cool unique stuff with Rhinos, but yeah they could probably use a heavy weapons squad (and probably more), not to familiar with them though.
And Thousand Sons are a psyker army. Why should they need heavy weapons then? This argument fails when, like you, you want your guys to have some potential in heavy firepower. I mean, if not, why would you want it?
Plus, like genestealer cults, Thousand Sons "do have heavy weapons they are just embedded into the squads". Sorted.
Also, sorry, Sisters have unique stuff with Rhinos? The Sisters of Silence have three units, plus one single generic Rhino. It's heaviest weapon is a hunter killer missile upgrade.
So, your statement about "damn near every army has heavy weapons squads" - not quite true. The biggest armies do, yes - but they're all the big armies. The smaller ones, which TS slot into, lack them.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: [spoiler]Also, if you're complaining about the Soulreapers being limited, how about Deathwatch? 1 Infernus Heavy Bolter and 1 Frag Cannon per box too - does that Deathwatch to "no heavy weapon teams" as well?
Thousand Sons aren't being treated like the main Space Marine codex, because GW sees them more like the other "splinter" faction armies.
Again, being intentionally obtuse doesn't make you smart.
Excuse me, could you elaborate on this? Where am I obtuse?
I'm just pointing out that Deathwatch have a similar heavy weapons kit situation.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: If you want to oppose the TS being treated as a splinter army instead, that's fine, but I would hope you also supported the other splinter armies being upgraded too.
You act like I'm asking for 10 new kits all I was thinking personally was 1 new kit which they already have the rules and the models for just mash it together and make it a unit, and maybe a cheap HQ with an Aura. I don't even think we should have a fast attack.
Given the outrage people seem to having in this thread, I doubt that one single unit would make that all better.
I could be wrong.
Plus, won't there be a cheap Tzaangor HQ for that aura effect?
Formosa wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: As far as I see it, Thousand Sons players have only gotten more units. If you don't want to use the Tzaangors, don't.
If you want to play 30k, play 30k. GW has made it clear that the 40k Thousand Sons are Rubricae and are a different beast than what they were 10,000 years ago.
The complaints of "what happened to all their heavy weapon teams? what about their sweet heresy era stuff?!" - same as what happened to the rest of the CSM list. I can't say I agree on them losing their heresy era stuff any more so than the rest of the CSM list, but there's no reason the TS should get it and the rest of the Traitor Legions shouldn't.
Regarding the heavy weapon teams, even if we assume then that all the heavy weapons left are the soulreaper cannons and that THEY should be grouped into one unit - why can't I do that with all the plasma guns on my Tactical Marines? An all plasma tac squad, why not?
Squads aren't grouped logically - it's GW's old "normal guys with a special weapon thrown in" formula. It's the same for everyone, not just TS.
Realistically, the TS can't just be CSM+Tzeentch. There would be no reason to take CSM. Same way CSM can't just be SM+daemons.
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but considering TS used to have two units until fair recently (Rubricae and Ahriman), I don't understand why people are so up in arms. You didn't lose anything from your 40k lists. If you played full Rubric TS, then you only had one unit really to use - there's nothing stopping you from doing that still.
If you're saying that makes you underpowered, then how about an AM player who takes an all Rough-Rider force? After all, they COULD use the rest of their book, but they want to use what they want. Does that make AM bad?
I can answer those questions.
Firstly the other legions DO have these weapons, so dont know where your coming from on that, autocannon havocs, plasma guns etc. its all there bar a few heresy specific weapons like volkites.
I more meant things like jetbikes, speeders, quad mortars, cataphractii and tartaros armour, conversion beamers, Apothecaries.
Why cant space marines band together to have "special weapon squads", simple, the codex, it defined how marines can fight, secondly, they can, they are called hellblasters, Chaos does not follow the codex, except for some reason they do???? that has been a bug bear of mine for a while, 4 heavies to a havoc squad, 1 heavy and 1 special in a tac squad, thats codex space marines and fits that fluff, this is not how the legions fought, so that needs explaining.
Helblasters represent a newly formed development in the Codex from Guilliman himself. They're new, and not to mention, Primaris only.
Maybe the Legions can only do 1 special and heavy because of a lack of resources? Maybe they think it's more tactically flexible.
The same reasoning which stops my Space Marine Captain picking up a lascannon, the same reasoning that stops Imperial Guard sergeants holding lasguns, the same logic that stops a Deathwatch Marine from how to use a grav-weapon. Because GW says so, and it's a consistent theme for Troops units to have 1 special and/or heavy (even though I could easily equip them all with the special weapon).
As to why have people only being saying this recently, thats not true at all, its something we have been saying since 3rd, Thousand sons should have access to the same units as Chaos marines but some of these should be represented by Rubricai.
The problem is that if you could just do "Rubric X", then why would you realistically take the normal one? Unless the Rubric variant had significant negative effects or a large points mark-up, people would just take "Rubric X" instead of "X". And that's ignoring GW consciously wanting to specialise what the Rubricae represent.
It boils down to wanting more Thousand sons representation in the Thousand sons codex, I have no issue with the addition of Tzaangors, but Thousand sons need more representation too, something that is very easy to implement and fits the fluff, this "no model no rules" crap is the real issue here.
Why aren't Tzaangors Thousand Sons? I mean, they're in their codex, probably will have the <Thousand Sons> keyword - what gives?
Did you mean "Rubricae" need more representation? GW seem to be implying that there are little Rubricae left, being sorted into Scarab Occult and Rubric Marines squads. If, in their setting, they want to push the idea that the Thousand Sons lack more specialised units, that's their design choice.
Tzaangors are not Thousand sons, they are in the codex, that is it, I even bet they will lack the "thousand sons" keyword.
We shall see. Would you wish to bet?
Also, still waiting on an answer about that Rough Rider situation.
Formosa wrote:Sorry but no, I blame GW for both the policy and sueing another company for ip infringement, a company that was not infringing there ip because they in fact did not own a lot of the ip they claimed to, it was a direct result of GWS bullying tactics, and I hold them responsible.
You're welcome to choose to blame who you want, but considering other companies had done the Chapterhouse trick before and GW hadn't gone after them, it is on Chapterhouse for them "poking the bear" too hard.
GW took action to defend their IP - the courts ruled what was and wasn't their IP, and GW then removed whatever they could that wasn't legally defendable. GW didn't bully anyone - they defended what they owned. If they didn't own it, then they changed the name so they could. That's called business.
You can say what you like, but the catalyst for it is on Chapterhouse, like it or not.
Simple tzaangors are as much thousand sons as cadians are ultramarines, it's a force alongside a faction fighting to aid it, not a part of the same faction, you can add the thousand sons keyword but they are not thousand sons.
That's a lie and you know it.
Shall we compare?
Ultramarines share the <Imperium> keyword with the Cadians, and aren't even in the same book. That's it. Fluff wise, they share even less - Cadians "were" located in majority around the Cadian gate, now largely scattered. The Ultramarines are focussed as far away from the Cadian Gate as it s possible to be. So no, not similar really.
Tzaangors will most likely share the <Chaos> and <Tzeentch> keywords, and probably even the <Thousand Sons> keyword, as well as being in the same codex. So, vastly more similar.
You'd be better off comparing the Tzaangors being as much Thousand Sons as Space Marine Scouts or Servitors to normal Tactical Marines - aka, very similar.
Unless you can prove to me that they do lack the <Thousand Sons> keyword, I don't think I agree with your opinion.
First of all I will state it again and in a much simpler way, Tzaangors are LITERALLY not Thousand sons, the keywords do not change this in anyway shape or form, the Gors are an Auxillary force used to boost the low numbers of the Tsons, as others have stated several times, in this codex however the Aux force is now in the majority, like say, ultramarines codex having 2 HQ, a lord of war an elite and a tac squad, the rest is the guard codex thrown in, see the problem there?
I do side with chapterhouse as GW at the time was very well known for its bullying tactics, spots the space marine anyone?
I flatly ignored the "bet" question as it was childish and not worth my time to answer, the rough rider question is just as worthless.
Yes I mean Rubricai need more representation, and if GW wants to show that Tsons are a tiny fraction of numbers, then call this codex Tzaangors, and just leave the Tsons in the chaos dex, if they want a codex Tsons, then put some actual Tsons in it.... or effort.
Maybe legions can only do what you say, but then why do they follow the codex makeup of codex marines so closely, this has been an issue since 3rd to my memory, spikey marines or marines -1, thankfully the new codex isnt as crap as the old ones, but is still just spikey marines, its chaos, chapters or legions, both are very poorly represented compared to the fluff.
Hellblasters are stated to be a throwback to the legions makeup, special weapon squads basically, same with LTS and centurions, so space marines now have a legion unit (variation) because Guilliman came back, yet the same legionaries that fought in the great crusade decided "nah, I like the look of that codex right there, lets change our makeup to match that" yet another disconnect with the background and the game, being primaris is irrelevent, the fact its just a special weapons squad with a different name is what matters.
So lets ask you a direct question, why dont you want anymore Tsons in the Tsons codex, why are you so against it?
nintura wrote: No, I got into Thousand Sons because the fluff was awesome, the Rubrics were awesome, and they are supposed to have a ton of powerful psykers. That's all virtually moot now as we are required to take gors for fodder, daemon machines for melee and tank busting. Our psychic phase is nearly a joke as we dont get many at all anymore.
If you thought the fluff was awesome.. Yet somehow your fluff doesn't match the established fluff that the Tsons use a ton of auxiliary stuff in their armies.
"are you seriusly bringing a new army before multiple existing armies getting codcies?
Custodes got introduced in 7th, they just got expanded out in this edition. Just like Tsons!
not only that but custodes fans (and apparently the popularity of the minis has suprised GW) have been asking for an HQ since burning of prosperio. the fact is Orks can PLAY their army. Necrons can PLAY their army.
Custodes needed a codex just to be able to play as something other then a component of a soup list
AegisGrimm wrote: Why cant it be viable fluff that Thousand Sons forces are NOT just vanilla Chaos Space Marines+Better Sorcery+Blue with gold scarabs?
I don't understand why it's wrong to establish concretely that what makes them unique is that remaining Thousand Sons forces field much less Terminator and Power armor suits (at least that aren't being worn by a Sorcerer) because it's so hard to make new Rubrics/the numbers of original Rubrics are dwindling? I'm not hugely up to date with 7th edition onwards, but does this fact conflict with anything previously written about post-Heresy Thousand Sons?
Even if the new codex had a unit entry for say, squads of Thousand Sons Havoks (and somehow in this day and age of GW had something other than just 4x Soulreaper Cannons), wouldn't some of us still be adamant about how "Pfft, Tzaangors are just a cheap port of AoS models into 40k, and also they aren't Thousand Sons so they shouldn't be in the Thousand Sons codex"?
Simple: feth the lore, Rubrics are cool and that's what Thousand Sons players want to field. I can't believe I'm arguing on the same side as Thousand-Sons-Sorcerer at this point but NOBODY got into this army because they really wanted to play beastmen.
This, they can easily retcon the lore so they are able to at least maintain the numbers they have, hell watch this
Restored Sons - TS Rubrics which have been restored to their full selves, squads of 3 equip them with either Melee weapons or Heavy weapons, make them an Elites choice. Bam problem solved. they could even use the CSM box and just add some new items to it, you know like they did with the Tzaangors.
Aaaand we're right back to disagreeing again. It completely defeats the point if you're going to solve the Rubric, you're seriously not helping with the accusations that TS fans just want to play 30k. -_-
First of all I will state it again and in a much simpler way, Tzaangors are LITERALLY not Thousand sons, the keywords do not change this in anyway shape or form, the Gors are an Auxillary force used to boost the low numbers of the Tsons, as others have stated several times, in this codex however the Aux force is now in the majority, like say, ultramarines codex having 2 HQ, a lord of war an elite and a tac squad, the rest is the guard codex thrown in, see the problem there?
Actually the old fluff had them as a huge force that Sorcerers led enmass with the Rubrics as their own personal guards instead of a major force.
Yes I mean Rubricai need more representation, and if GW wants to show that Tsons are a tiny fraction of numbers, then call this codex Tzaangors, and just leave the Tsons in the chaos dex, if they want a codex Tsons, then put some actual Tsons in it.... or effort.
Because the Thousand Sons leads the Tzaangors, the Thousand Sons owns the Planet of Sorcerers and the creatures and monsters upon it.
So lets ask you a direct question, why dont you want anymore Tsons in the Tsons codex, why are you so against it?
Because it honestly sounds like people just want "30k Legion 2.0" or "Spikey SM marines, just psychic flavor!".
There's also this slight annoyance factor given I play Slaanesh and EC, armies that tend to get overlooked in general when it comes to things. And people here are complaining that "We didn't get everything we wanted and are going to ignore the fluff of how Tsons operate, we DESERVE more"
andysonic1 wrote: Death Guard: elite units supported by daemons and zombies and vehicles. Clearly unique and different from imperial armies to show their embrace of chaos. No one bats an eye, all good, cool gak.
There are only 4 or 5 units that are not some version of a PM in the DG army, PM can fill at least 3 roles have 2 variants on their Terminators,
andysonic1 wrote: Thousand Sons: elite units supported by daemons and beastmen and chaos beasts. Clearly unique and different from imperial armies to show their embrace of chaos. RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Yes that's whats happening autistic screeching...
andysonic1 wrote: Look, guys, I do get that you want the full range of CSM, but you aren't going to get it. You're going to get a fluffy, unique, and frankly awesome army that will work on its own and even better with daemon allys potentially, just like Death Guard. And when Emp Children is announced later this year, they will more than likely get the same treatment: elites supported by daemons and boobs and SONIC BOOM!
I hope they make what ever Iconic unit of the army you run a foot note of it in the next update.
andysonic1 wrote: This is what your army is now. I honestly cannot fathom how this thread has gone on so long. Either embrace the new fluff of your legion or play 30k.
andysonic1 wrote: Look, guys, I do get that you want the full range of CSM, but you aren't going to get it. You're going to get a fluffy, unique, and frankly awesome army that will work on its own and even better with daemon allys potentially, just like Death Guard. And when Emp Children is announced later this year, they will more than likely get the same treatment: elites supported by daemons and boobs and SONIC BOOM!
I hope they make what ever Iconic unit of the army you run a foot note of it in the next update.
I main World Eaters bro, I'm chomping at the bit for some Khorngors or big Chaos Spawn units to compliment my Berzerkers and Kharn. I would LOVE to have a flavorful chaff unit to screen my Berzerkers and would kill for a sweet auxiliary Chaos Spawn type unit. Seriously, the lore of World Eaters is Berzerkers, Chaos Spawn, Daemons, and Cultists, and if that was the World Eaters codex in a nutshell I would be throwing money at Games Workshop hand over fist.
I think you need to start looking inward at your problem instead of outward.
AegisGrimm wrote: Why cant it be viable fluff that Thousand Sons forces are NOT just vanilla Chaos Space Marines+Better Sorcery+Blue with gold scarabs?
I don't understand why it's wrong to establish concretely that what makes them unique is that remaining Thousand Sons forces field much less Terminator and Power armor suits (at least that aren't being worn by a Sorcerer) because it's so hard to make new Rubrics/the numbers of original Rubrics are dwindling? I'm not hugely up to date with 7th edition onwards, but does this fact conflict with anything previously written about post-Heresy Thousand Sons?
Even if the new codex had a unit entry for say, squads of Thousand Sons Havoks (and somehow in this day and age of GW had something other than just 4x Soulreaper Cannons), wouldn't some of us still be adamant about how "Pfft, Tzaangors are just a cheap port of AoS models into 40k, and also they aren't Thousand Sons so they shouldn't be in the Thousand Sons codex"?
Simple: feth the lore, Rubrics are cool and that's what Thousand Sons players want to field. I can't believe I'm arguing on the same side as Thousand-Sons-Sorcerer at this point but NOBODY got into this army because they really wanted to play beastmen.
This, they can easily retcon the lore so they are able to at least maintain the numbers they have, hell watch this
Restored Sons - TS Rubrics which have been restored to their full selves, squads of 3 equip them with either Melee weapons or Heavy weapons, make them an Elites choice. Bam problem solved. they could even use the CSM box and just add some new items to it, you know like they did with the Tzaangors.
Aaaand we're right back to disagreeing again. It completely defeats the point if you're going to solve the Rubric, you're seriously not helping with the accusations that TS fans just want to play 30k. -_-
Its literally the exact same thing they did with Tzaangors AND its part of the fluff. Im not saying they should do that but its better then playing a Gor dominated army.
andysonic1 wrote: Look, guys, I do get that you want the full range of CSM, but you aren't going to get it. You're going to get a fluffy, unique, and frankly awesome army that will work on its own and even better with daemon allys potentially, just like Death Guard. And when Emp Children is announced later this year, they will more than likely get the same treatment: elites supported by daemons and boobs and SONIC BOOM!
I hope they make what ever Iconic unit of the army you run a foot note of it in the next update.
I main World Eaters bro, I'm chomping at the bit for some Khorngors or big Chaos Spawn units to compliment my Berzerkers and Kharn. I would LOVE to have a flavorful chaff unit to screen my Berzerkers and would kill for a sweet auxiliary Chaos Spawn type unit. Seriously, the lore of World Eaters is Berzerkers, Chaos Spawn, Daemons, and Cultists, and if that was the World Eaters codex in a nutshell I would be throwing money at Games Workshop hand over fist.
I think you need to start looking inward at your problem instead of outward.
Just imagine a World Eaters Codex with rules and new models for Khorngorns, squads of the Blood Pact with new militarized-cultists models, etc... lovely.
Formosa wrote: First of all I will state it again and in a much simpler way, Tzaangors are LITERALLY not Thousand sons, the keywords do not change this in anyway shape or form, the Gors are an Auxillary force used to boost the low numbers of the Tsons, as others have stated several times, in this codex however the Aux force is now in the majority, like say, ultramarines codex having 2 HQ, a lord of war an elite and a tac squad, the rest is the guard codex thrown in, see the problem there?
And Manticores aren't Guardsmen, yet nobody would ever try and argue that they didn't belong in the IG dex. The TS are a small force that has been whittled down over the millenia along with losing various memebers to defectors to other legions or their own splinter warbands and even if you can resummon rubricae, you can't make new sorcerors and the recruiting of defectors from imperial chapters would be rare to say the least. It's stated in the fluff that the beastmen are there as chaff, so why do you not want them in the dex? It doesn't stop you playing pure sons if that's what you want, you can still take sorcs, rubricae and scarabs with or without vehicle support.
Formosa wrote: Yes I mean Rubricai need more representation, and if GW wants to show that Tsons are a tiny fraction of numbers, then call this codex Tzaangors, and just leave the Tsons in the chaos dex, if they want a codex Tsons, then put some actual Tsons in it.... or effort.
Again, I'm not sure why you think rubricae need more representation? They're basically golems IN SPACE!, there to serve their wizard psycher masters. They are there as background to the main focus of the legions which is the HQ casters. Tzaangors are the same, expendable chaff to keep nasty punchy things away from your squishy space wizards.
Formosa wrote: Maybe legions can only do what you say, but then why do they follow the codex makeup of codex marines so closely, this has been an issue since 3rd to my memory, spikey marines or marines -1, thankfully the new codex isnt as crap as the old ones, but is still just spikey marines, its chaos, chapters or legions, both are very poorly represented compared to the fluff.
Yes and no. With the advent of 30k, CSM are basically vet squads and the woofs also follow a bit of the same design as CSM which harkens back to ye olde days.
Formosa wrote: Hellblasters are stated to be a throwback to the legions makeup, special weapon squads basically, same with LTS and centurions, so space marines now have a legion unit (variation) because Guilliman came back, yet the same legionaries that fought in the great crusade decided "nah, I like the look of that codex right there, lets change our makeup to match that" yet another disconnect with the background and the game, being primaris is irrelevent, the fact its just a special weapons squad with a different name is what matters.
Actually, given that the mainstay of most legions were squads of bolter boys, having the sons go for as long as they did with no upgrades was actually sticking more closely to the fluff than anything else. IIRC, Sons can also do a solid impression of a flamer support squad with their warp flamers. Again, the CSM "tactical" equivalent is basically vet squads, especially back when they could take a special rule like infiltrate or counter attack. I do agree that it's odd that we don't have full squads of heavy weapons, though I suspect that's more of a combination of legacy issues of being spikey marines and partly due to balance issues (since even loyalists don't have pure heavy weapons squads).
Formosa wrote: So lets ask you a direct question, why dont you want anymore Tsons in the Tsons codex, why are you so against it?
I'm not the one you asked, but I'm going to answer anyway - It doesn't fit the fluff. Everything we've read has rubricae toting bolters and that's about it. Personally, given the fluff of "only the best psychers got to have terminator armour", I even question how and why we got scarab occult, but at least I can handwave that away as rubricae being summoned into terminator armour or a handful of the "elite" psychers being off guard or weakened enough for the rubric to dust them. The return of Sorceror Lords addition of Exalted Sorcerors was a welcome change, and one I feel that was badly needed as part of their factional identity though.
I'll turn it around for you though - Why are you so against the addition of a fluffy option like Tzaangors?
andysonic1 wrote: Look, guys, I do get that you want the full range of CSM, but you aren't going to get it. You're going to get a fluffy, unique, and frankly awesome army that will work on its own and even better with daemon allys potentially, just like Death Guard. And when Emp Children is announced later this year, they will more than likely get the same treatment: elites supported by daemons and boobs and SONIC BOOM!
I hope they make what ever Iconic unit of the army you run a foot note of it in the next update.
I main World Eaters bro, I'm chomping at the bit for some Khorngors or big Chaos Spawn units to compliment my Berzerkers and Kharn. I would LOVE to have a flavorful chaff unit to screen my Berzerkers and would kill for a sweet auxiliary Chaos Spawn type unit. Seriously, the lore of World Eaters is Berzerkers, Chaos Spawn, Daemons, and Cultists, and if that was the World Eaters codex in a nutshell I would be throwing money at Games Workshop hand over fist.
I think you need to start looking inward at your problem instead of outward.
Just imagine a World Eaters Codex with rules and new models for Khorngorns, squads of the Blood Pact with new militarized-cultists models, etc... lovely.
UGH, veterans of Vraks led by Zhufor, Khorngors from Angron's Daemon World, character melee Helbrutes. The list goes on and on with the additions to the army. I can't wait.
I pose the question: When a World Eaters codex comes out should it have options for squads full of heavy weapons or special weapons? Other 30k Legion-makeup stuff like sniper squads, etc?
andysonic1 wrote: Look, guys, I do get that you want the full range of CSM, but you aren't going to get it. You're going to get a fluffy, unique, and frankly awesome army that will work on its own and even better with daemon allys potentially, just like Death Guard. And when Emp Children is announced later this year, they will more than likely get the same treatment: elites supported by daemons and boobs and SONIC BOOM!
I hope they make what ever Iconic unit of the army you run a foot note of it in the next update.
I main World Eaters bro, I'm chomping at the bit for some Khorngors or big Chaos Spawn units to compliment my Berzerkers and Kharn. I would LOVE to have a flavorful chaff unit to screen my Berzerkers and would kill for a sweet auxiliary Chaos Spawn type unit. Seriously, the lore of World Eaters is Berzerkers, Chaos Spawn, Daemons, and Cultists, and if that was the World Eaters codex in a nutshell I would be throwing money at Games Workshop hand over fist.
I think you need to start looking inward at your problem instead of outward.
Again you agree that TS as they were on the TT are dead.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AegisGrimm wrote: I pose the question: When a World Eaters codex comes out should it have options for squads full of heavy weapons or special weapons? Other 30k Legion-makeup stuff like sniper squads, etc?
Totally irrelevant WE are not a Shooty Psyker army they are the exact opposite of that.
andysonic1 wrote: Look, guys, I do get that you want the full range of CSM, but you aren't going to get it. You're going to get a fluffy, unique, and frankly awesome army that will work on its own and even better with daemon allys potentially, just like Death Guard. And when Emp Children is announced later this year, they will more than likely get the same treatment: elites supported by daemons and boobs and SONIC BOOM!
I hope they make what ever Iconic unit of the army you run a foot note of it in the next update.
I main World Eaters bro, I'm chomping at the bit for some Khorngors or big Chaos Spawn units to compliment my Berzerkers and Kharn. I would LOVE to have a flavorful chaff unit to screen my Berzerkers and would kill for a sweet auxiliary Chaos Spawn type unit. Seriously, the lore of World Eaters is Berzerkers, Chaos Spawn, Daemons, and Cultists, and if that was the World Eaters codex in a nutshell I would be throwing money at Games Workshop hand over fist.
I think you need to start looking inward at your problem instead of outward.
Just imagine a World Eaters Codex with rules and new models for Khorngorns, squads of the Blood Pact with new militarized-cultists models, etc... lovely.
Yes all them them shooty maybe 1 unit that has CC capabilities, the rest will be ranged weapons only, with heavy weapon squads.
andysonic1 wrote: Death Guard: elite units supported by daemons and zombies and vehicles. Clearly unique and different from imperial armies to show their embrace of chaos. No one bats an eye, all good, cool gak.
There are only 4 or 5 units that are not some version of a PM in the DG army, PM can fill at least 3 roles have 2 variants on their Terminators,
Mmm...not really?
NOT DG Cultists
Land Raider
Chaos Lord
Chaos Lord in TA Predator
Rhino
Spawn
DP Defiler
Bloat Drone
Helbrute
Blight Hauler
Crawler
Possessed
Pox Walkers
Sorcerer
Sorcerer in TA
And then...
Putrifier
Blightspawn
Lord of Contagion
Plaguecaster
Blightbringer
Plague Surgeon
Tallyman
Blightlords
Deathshroud
Plague Marines
These are the units people are complaining about not getting for the most part - e.g. Rubrics with different weapons. But here we have three "Death Guard" units. I don't see jump pack DG or devastator DG in there.
AegisGrimm wrote: I pose the question: When a World Eaters codex comes out should it have options for squads full of heavy weapons or special weapons? Other 30k Legion-makeup stuff like sniper squads, etc?
Why would it? That wouldn't represent the World Eaters Legion of 40k.
andysonic1 wrote: Look, guys, I do get that you want the full range of CSM, but you aren't going to get it. You're going to get a fluffy, unique, and frankly awesome army that will work on its own and even better with daemon allys potentially, just like Death Guard. And when Emp Children is announced later this year, they will more than likely get the same treatment: elites supported by daemons and boobs and SONIC BOOM!
I hope they make what ever Iconic unit of the army you run a foot note of it in the next update.
I main World Eaters bro, I'm chomping at the bit for some Khorngors or big Chaos Spawn units to compliment my Berzerkers and Kharn. I would LOVE to have a flavorful chaff unit to screen my Berzerkers and would kill for a sweet auxiliary Chaos Spawn type unit. Seriously, the lore of World Eaters is Berzerkers, Chaos Spawn, Daemons, and Cultists, and if that was the World Eaters codex in a nutshell I would be throwing money at Games Workshop hand over fist.
I think you need to start looking inward at your problem instead of outward.
Just imagine a World Eaters Codex with rules and new models for Khorngorns, squads of the Blood Pact with new militarized-cultists models, etc... lovely.
Yes all them them shooty maybe 1 unit that has CC capabilities, the rest will be ranged weapons only, with heavy weapon squads.
Yes because that is exactly what is happening with Death Guard and Thousand Sons oh wait no it isn't they got fluffy units for those slots that fit the theme as well as gaps the base elite army has. A more realistic comparison is Khorngors, Daemon Engines or Giant Chaos Spawn, and / or military cultists like Galas was saying, and yes all could be shooty with some CC just like, gasp, Skull Cannons, and it wouldn't be the end of the world. In fact it would, gasp, fill gaps the base elite army has.
Formosa wrote: First of all I will state it again and in a much simpler way, Tzaangors are LITERALLY not Thousand sons, the keywords do not change this in anyway shape or form, the Gors are an Auxillary force used to boost the low numbers of the Tsons, as others have stated several times, in this codex however the Aux force is now in the majority, like say, ultramarines codex having 2 HQ, a lord of war an elite and a tac squad, the rest is the guard codex thrown in, see the problem there?
And Manticores aren't Guardsmen, yet nobody would ever try and argue that they didn't belong in the IG dex. The TS are a small force that has been whittled down over the millenia along with losing various memebers to defectors to other legions or their own splinter warbands and even if you can resummon rubricae, you can't make new sorcerors and the recruiting of defectors from imperial chapters would be rare to say the least. It's stated in the fluff that the beastmen are there as chaff, so why do you not want them in the dex? It doesn't stop you playing pure sons if that's what you want, you can still take sorcs, rubricae and scarabs with or without vehicle support.
Formosa wrote: Yes I mean Rubricai need more representation, and if GW wants to show that Tsons are a tiny fraction of numbers, then call this codex Tzaangors, and just leave the Tsons in the chaos dex, if they want a codex Tsons, then put some actual Tsons in it.... or effort.
Again, I'm not sure why you think rubricae need more representation? They're basically golems IN SPACE!, there to serve their wizard psycher masters. They are there as background to the main focus of the legions which is the HQ casters. Tzaangors are the same, expendable chaff to keep nasty punchy things away from your squishy space wizards.
Formosa wrote: Maybe legions can only do what you say, but then why do they follow the codex makeup of codex marines so closely, this has been an issue since 3rd to my memory, spikey marines or marines -1, thankfully the new codex isnt as crap as the old ones, but is still just spikey marines, its chaos, chapters or legions, both are very poorly represented compared to the fluff.
Yes and no. With the advent of 30k, CSM are basically vet squads and the woofs also follow a bit of the same design as CSM which harkens back to ye olde days.
Formosa wrote: Hellblasters are stated to be a throwback to the legions makeup, special weapon squads basically, same with LTS and centurions, so space marines now have a legion unit (variation) because Guilliman came back, yet the same legionaries that fought in the great crusade decided "nah, I like the look of that codex right there, lets change our makeup to match that" yet another disconnect with the background and the game, being primaris is irrelevent, the fact its just a special weapons squad with a different name is what matters.
Actually, given that the mainstay of most legions were squads of bolter boys, having the sons go for as long as they did with no upgrades was actually sticking more closely to the fluff than anything else. IIRC, Sons can also do a solid impression of a flamer support squad with their warp flamers. Again, the CSM "tactical" equivalent is basically vet squads, especially back when they could take a special rule like infiltrate or counter attack. I do agree that it's odd that we don't have full squads of heavy weapons, though I suspect that's more of a combination of legacy issues of being spikey marines and partly due to balance issues (since even loyalists don't have pure heavy weapons squads).
Formosa wrote: So lets ask you a direct question, why dont you want anymore Tsons in the Tsons codex, why are you so against it?
I'm not the one you asked, but I'm going to answer anyway - It doesn't fit the fluff. Everything we've read has rubricae toting bolters and that's about it. Personally, given the fluff of "only the best psychers got to have terminator armour", I even question how and why we got scarab occult, but at least I can handwave that away as rubricae being summoned into terminator armour or a handful of the "elite" psychers being off guard or weakened enough for the rubric to dust them. The return of Sorceror Lords addition of Exalted Sorcerors was a welcome change, and one I feel that was badly needed as part of their factional identity though.
I'll turn it around for you though - Why are you so against the addition of a fluffy option like Tzaangors?
I will try to say this politely, read the thread, my posts specifically, then come back and to me, I have said repeatedly I like tzaangors and like they are added to the book
To your other statements, tzaangors have not been part of the fluff since 2nd, now they are back, cool, that good, more models, nice ones at that, but don't pretend "they have always been there" because I have yet to see them ever mentioned in 40k since 3rd, beastmen sure, but not tzaangors, khornegors, slaangors or pestigors, they were pretty much squatted until recently.
Your example of the guard doesn't work in the slightest and isn't even referencing what I'm talking about, you can't throw an ork into the space Marine codex and give it the "astartes" keyword then claim it's a space Marine, tzaangors are not thousand sons, they are aux troops, that's it, adding the "thousand sons" keyword does not suddenly make them space Marines, finding it hard that people are not getting that, especially when I said "literally" are not thousand sons.
I want more rubricai for the simple reason that these units should already be in the book, if they can hand wave sekmets into being rubrics, then why can't we have rubrics in other slots, im yet to see a valid fluff reason for why certain units cannot exist, as you say Tsons only had bolters until recently and suddenly they got some heresy era kit, as soon as that was introduced it created this very issue, if it had stayed just bolters I would be agreeing with you, but now I'm like "if they have these weapons, why are they not useing them as they have been trained to?" It made no sense, I do agree that it seems to be a legacy "spikey marine" issue, but as I said earlier in the thread, this book was a great opportunity to add more character to the Tsons, bulk out the Rubrics a bit, instead we have gotten a major focus on tzaangors, which is wrong for a thousand sons codex.
andysonic1 wrote: Death Guard: elite units supported by daemons and zombies and vehicles. Clearly unique and different from imperial armies to show their embrace of chaos. No one bats an eye, all good, cool gak.
There are only 4 or 5 units that are not some version of a PM in the DG army, PM can fill at least 3 roles have 2 variants on their Terminators,
Mmm...not really?
NOT DG Cultists
Land Raider
Chaos Lord
Chaos Lord in TA Predator
Rhino
Spawn
DP Defiler
Bloat Drone
Helbrute
Blight Hauler
Crawler
Possessed
Pox Walkers
Sorcerer
Sorcerer in TA
And then...
Putrifier
Blightspawn
Lord of Contagion
Plaguecaster
Blightbringer
Plague Surgeon
Tallyman
Blightlords
Deathshroud
Plague Marines
These are the units people are complaining about not getting for the most part - e.g. Rubrics with different weapons. But here we have three "Death Guard" units. I don't see jump pack DG or devastator DG in there.
In all fairness DG players were complaining at the lack of havoc squads, both a fluffy unit and historically one that death guard had, until that book dropped (and the index iirc), also I've seen several DG players complain about the straight port of Chaos marine units that were not buffed to have the death guard bonus (like toughness 5 chaos lord for example), it seems they made the DG specific units and then just copy pasted the rest, another wasted optunity and frankly a big snafu.
Honestly this post should probably be locked. No one is going to change their minds as plenty of evidence has been presented by both sides. Its no longer a discussion but a circular argument. I mean if thats what people want to do I guess that is cool.
Table wrote: Honestly this post should probably be locked. No one is going to change their minds as plenty of evidence has been presented by both sides. Its no longer a discussion but a circular argument. I mean if thats what people want to do I guess that is cool.
Its all but guaranteed we will keep Dark Hereticus, and a Tzeentch Lore will happen.
Warhammer Community page via Facebook confirmed Magnus will have "more" then 3 spells. and of course as you said there will be a good size for the Strategems.
We can expect the ones above you quoted, and one for Scarab Occult, one for Rubrics, and probably 1 for Tzaangors (maybe 2...given that our cavalry are going to be fairly important in list design)
I would bet on all of those in addition to what we already have. a 1-cp "ignore perils" probably, Id guess.
And I agree with the "characters provide re-rolls or other auras" may happen. If the design team paid attention at all to the thousand sons issues within current design I would think that auras other then the DP / Exalted auras will show up. the Tzaangor shaman is a great start. lets hope they do a couple more.
Id guess that our termies and our rubrics will both get "unit unique" stratagems as a guarantee, Exalted "may" as well given we only have TWO non-unique HQ slots. Pretty much every unique unit in the game has a Strategem, so its a guarantee basically.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: More in Bodies yes but from a points perspective I shouldnt be spending more points on Tzaangors then Rubrics.
Even if you want a brigade or double battalion with tzaangors for troops, you are only looking at 60 tzaangors, which is 420 points. Two units of scarab occult (or a single larger unit for maximizing hypothetical stratagems) will easily beat that. Even then I'd suspect it'd be better to run at least one battalion with the cheaper horrors (blue or brimstone) and some daemon hqs unless gors are just broken good or get a hefty price cut.
In terms of HQs/Characters, tson sorcerers, exalted sorcerers, and daemon princes will be much more expensive but will likely be worth the points (particularly if tson daemon princes get the same upgrade DG daemon princes did, having their god's daemon trait added on).
So yeah, in points I absolutely don't think you'll be seeing more gors than rubrics, sorcerers, and daemon princes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
andysonic1 wrote: Death Guard: elite units supported by daemons and zombies and vehicles. Clearly unique and different from imperial armies to show their embrace of chaos. No one bats an eye, all good, cool gak.
Thousand Sons: elite units supported by daemons and beastmen and chaos beasts. Clearly unique and different from imperial armies to show their embrace of chaos. RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Look, guys, I do get that you want the full range of CSM, but you aren't going to get it. You're going to get a fluffy, unique, and frankly awesome army that will work on its own and even better with daemon allys potentially, just like Death Guard. And when Emp Children is announced later this year, they will more than likely get the same treatment: elites supported by daemons and boobs and SONIC BOOM!
This is what your army is now. I honestly cannot fathom how this thread has gone on so long. Either embrace the new fluff of your legion or play 30k.
Oh no there was a lot of salt from DG players, right up from the initial index all the way through the codex. I was one of them. Honestly, might have been worse than this, given that, unlike tsons, the traitor legion supplement had included rules for DG havoc and other such units just months before.
No it doesnt... Yes, they CAN use Gor's. They shouldnt be MOSTLY gors.
If there are only about 700 rubrics, then they totally are mostly gors! But of course you're perfectly free to choose the preferred gor/rubric ration for your own force. If you think there should be more rubrics than gors then take more rubrics than gors. How bloody hard can that be?
So by your logic every space marine army being played should be 50% or more IG? Glad that settles that.
Well, that's pretty much how I've been running my marines in this edition...
But no, normal space marines are not nearly mindless golems, so they can actually operate an army on their own.
As for the claims that there are now more gor units than Thousand Sons marine units in the codex, that is simply not true. If you count characters and marine vehicles in the codex, there are way more marine units and you can in fact put non-gor unit in most FO slots, so you can have a gorless army if you want.
More options would be nice, I get that, but this is still more than they ever had, and frankly it was unrealistic to expect another model release so soon after they just got bunch of kits last year. As for the psychic stuff, I agree that it should be on the focus, and I hope the codex rules reflect that. TS should be one of the most psychically powerful armies without pointy ears.
When was the last time Tzaangors made up a substantial portion of a TS army.
Tzaangors was in rogue trader, when Chaos got two tomes full of stuff. Ever since Chaos hasn't gotten anywhere near the amount of design space, so we had cram all legions (and usually demons too) in to one codex. This of course led to that we only got the bare minimum for each legion (if even that!), for example TS only representation being a rubric squad and maybe a psyker HQ. Now the TS have gotten their own codex and we finally get all the cool stuff that has been missing for years and people complain
I mean sure, more rubric would be cool to, but you have to take GW production capabilities in consideration.
Daedalus81 wrote:It will all come down to the stratagems to add flavor.
Blasphemous Machines
VotLW Familiar
Boon
Kill Shot
A summon stratagem
Fire Frenzy
Gifts
Those will all be in the book - almost guaranteed.
DG also have a start to bring back a unit so it's possible we get that for Tzaangors.
The ones left are:
Overwatch bonus
Heal
Obscure a unit
Mortal wound bomb
Blow a vehicle
All very useful and geared towards particular units.
In addition i'm hoping we still have Dark Hereticus and the Tzeentch spells.
Best case scenario the characters also provide more than simple reroll auras like Plaguecaster / Blightspawn.
Agreed on the almost guarnteed
We have flamers we don't need an overwatch bonus.
Heals have never been our thing.
We don't need to obscure units we are plunty durable
Shared mortal wound bomb for Rubrics and SOT maybe but not likely
Blow a vehicle up again not likly.
We already have 1 pay 2 CP to get a +1 to a spell (which is gak by the way)
We will probably get 1 that adds to our durability, either reroll invul saves or +1 to invul saves
We will probably get something to replace the Lance ability that Exalteds had
An infiltrate Strat like Alpha Legions but we will probably have to pay 2 points for 1 unit
Something to mitigate Perils of course.
Something for Tzaangors probably movement increase, or increased chance to wound
Ahriman21 wrote:Its all but guaranteed we will keep Dark Hereticus, and a Tzeentch Lore will happen.
Warhammer Community page via Facebook confirmed Magnus will have "more" then 3 spells. and of course as you said there will be a good size for the Strategems.
We can expect the ones above you quoted, and one for Scarab Occult, one for Rubrics, and probably 1 for Tzaangors (maybe 2...given that our cavalry are going to be fairly important in list design)
I would bet on all of those in addition to what we already have. a 1-cp "ignore perils" probably, Id guess.
And I agree with the "characters provide re-rolls or other auras" may happen. If the design team paid attention at all to the thousand sons issues within current design I would think that auras other then the DP / Exalted auras will show up. the Tzaangor shaman is a great start. lets hope they do a couple more.
Id guess that our termies and our rubrics will both get "unit unique" stratagems as a guarantee, Exalted "may" as well given we only have TWO non-unique HQ slots. Pretty much every unique unit in the game has a Strategem, so its a guarantee basically.
We are not going to get 10 strats unique to our army DG got 14 we will get probably 14 with the generic ones taking up 8.
Shaman is going to have morale loss mitigation its what Tzaangors need. They will probably have a use my LD aura and a reroll 1s to wound in CC.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: More in Bodies yes but from a points perspective I shouldnt be spending more points on Tzaangors then Rubrics.
Even if you want a brigade or double battalion with tzaangors for troops, you are only looking at 60 tzaangors, which is 420 points. Two units of scarab occult (or a single larger unit for maximizing hypothetical stratagems) will easily beat that. Even then I'd suspect it'd be better to run at least one battalion with the cheaper horrors (blue or brimstone) and some daemon hqs unless gors are just broken good or get a hefty price cut.
In terms of HQs/Characters, tson sorcerers, exalted sorcerers, and daemon princes will be much more expensive but will likely be worth the points (particularly if tson daemon princes get the same upgrade DG daemon princes did, having their god's daemon trait added on).
So yeah, in points I absolutely don't think you'll be seeing more gors than rubrics, sorcerers, and daemon princes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
andysonic1 wrote: Death Guard: elite units supported by daemons and zombies and vehicles. Clearly unique and different from imperial armies to show their embrace of chaos. No one bats an eye, all good, cool gak.
Thousand Sons: elite units supported by daemons and beastmen and chaos beasts. Clearly unique and different from imperial armies to show their embrace of chaos. RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Look, guys, I do get that you want the full range of CSM, but you aren't going to get it. You're going to get a fluffy, unique, and frankly awesome army that will work on its own and even better with daemon allys potentially, just like Death Guard. And when Emp Children is announced later this year, they will more than likely get the same treatment: elites supported by daemons and boobs and SONIC BOOM!
This is what your army is now. I honestly cannot fathom how this thread has gone on so long. Either embrace the new fluff of your legion or play 30k.
Oh no there was a lot of salt from DG players, right up from the initial index all the way through the codex. I was one of them. Honestly, might have been worse than this, given that, unlike tsons, the traitor legion supplement had included rules for DG havoc and other such units just months before.
What about Skyfires, Enlightened, and Shamans how many points am I spending on those? Im goong to need at least Skyfires for FA, swapping. SOT for Enlightened will probably be cheaper, Shamans are more then likley gpimg to be 20+ points cheaper as an HQ choice and have bonuses which will benefit both Tzaangors, Enlightened, and Skyfires.
And on the topic of DP they are a 150 point melee focused unit which needs to be in CC to be points effective and only have a 6" range on thier aura. Which means I need to be with in 6" of an enemy unit to benefit from the aura. I can hear you already "get wings" okay add wings 180 points and increase the move by 4". Now what? Now I still have to be within 10", 8" if I have a flamer in the unit, of the units so when he disengages he can get behind them, because if he dosen't he's left out in the open and will get slaughtered by mortal wound causing units.
Now, to those saying we will get changes to Rubrics which will keep them relevant. We have several options that have been pointed out.
1.)Access to spells
2.)Price drops
3.)Auras to buff them
Access to spells dosen't work because we are still talking about a single wound Sorcerer which will blow up and kill surrounding units.
Price drop might work problem is it would need to be such a huge points drop its unreasonable to think it would happen, were talk 10ish points off the Sorcerer and and 2 off each Rubric, almost 20 points going from just under 110 to just under 90. That is just not reasonable.
Auras, what auras would they get? They already have reroll 1s to hit and reroll 1s on invul, the only other thing they can get is rolls to wound, or save, there is no way we will get rerolls on saves, which means wounds is about the only thing we can really get.
Keep in mind you shound not be expecting to get giant upgrades AND points reductions it will be one or the other and you would really need both to keep Rubrics in the running.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:Restored Sons - TS Rubrics which have been restored to their full selves, squads of 3 equip them with either Melee weapons or Heavy weapons, make them an Elites choice. Bam problem solved. they could even use the CSM box and just add some new items to it, you know like they did with the Tzaangors.
And now you just want to play 30k in 40k.
Formosa wrote:First of all I will state it again and in a much simpler way, Tzaangors are LITERALLY not Thousand sons, the keywords do not change this in anyway shape or form, the Gors are an Auxillary force used to boost the low numbers of the Tsons, as others have stated several times, in this codex however the Aux force is now in the majority, like say, ultramarines codex having 2 HQ, a lord of war an elite and a tac squad, the rest is the guard codex thrown in, see the problem there?
Why aren't they Thousand Sons, any more than a Servitor is part of the Ultramarines Chapter?
Why is a Manticore allowed in the Cadian army, despite being a Tank, not a guardsman?
Why is a Grot in the Ork codex, despite not being an Ork?
Tzaangors are in the codex, their keywords literally have <Heretic Astartes> and <Thousand Sons> - how are they any less valid than the Rubricae?
The Gors don't HAVE to be taken, they don't HAVE to be the majority of your army. You still have all the Rubricae (and more) from before, and can still make a list from them. Imagine you're at a restaurant, and you find that, alongside the meal you always order, there's a new menu item. You storm out in disgust from this new menu item, despite you not having to eat it, and your old favourite is still there.
The Ultramarine situation is not the same as this - mostly because Guardsmen aren't actually ATTACHED to Ultramarine forces. They ally together (oh wait, that's what the rules represent), but the Tzaangors are literally PART of the Thousand Sons.
I do side with chapterhouse as GW at the time was very well known for its bullying tactics, spots the space marine anyone?
In which case, we'll have to agree to disagree.
I flatly ignored the "bet" question as it was childish and not worth my time to answer, the rough rider question is just as worthless.
Why was the bet childish? It clearly shows that the Tzaangors are very well integrated into the Thousand Sons - not just a tacked on auxiliary.
And may I ask WHY the Rough Rider question is worthless?
Yes I mean Rubricai need more representation, and if GW wants to show that Tsons are a tiny fraction of numbers, then call this codex Tzaangors, and just leave the Tsons in the chaos dex, if they want a codex Tsons, then put some actual Tsons in it.... or effort.
Well, ignoring the obvious issue that Tzaangors ARE Thousand Sons, you still have all the Rubricae that Wrath of Magnus introduced, and still have the Rubric Marines which was the sole component of the faction for most of 40k's lifespan.
Again - Rubricae being a tiny fraction of numbers can be represented by you on the tabletop if you want, or, you can embrace the choice GW have given you, and not even need to field any Tzaangors.
Maybe legions can only do what you say, but then why do they follow the codex makeup of codex marines so closely, this has been an issue since 3rd to my memory, spikey marines or marines -1, thankfully the new codex isnt as crap as the old ones, but is still just spikey marines, its chaos, chapters or legions, both are very poorly represented compared to the fluff.
They follow the 1special/heavy rule mostly because it's a GW legacy rule back when bolters were slightly more than just aesthetic accessories on bodies people would rather leave unarmed now.
Realistically, giving them all bolters is the fluffiest option, seeing as that's what Legion Tacticals all had.
Narratively, you can argue that they now follow the style of the Legion Veteran Squads.
Mostly, it's GW making the 1 special/heavy rule first to apply to Space Marines of all stripes, and the FW making the Legion list which turned out different.
Hellblasters are stated to be a throwback to the legions makeup, special weapon squads basically, same with LTS and centurions, so space marines now have a legion unit (variation) because Guilliman came back, yet the same legionaries that fought in the great crusade decided "nah, I like the look of that codex right there, lets change our makeup to match that" yet another disconnect with the background and the game, being primaris is irrelevent, the fact its just a special weapons squad with a different name is what matters.
Again, as I said above, the "codex" armament is the old Legion Veteran style.
With the Primaris, it looks to me like they're treated similarly to Devastators with lighter weaponry, but regardless - it's Guilliman's choice of organisation. Chaos haven't had a restructure of the same type since they fled into the warp.
So lets ask you a direct question, why dont you want anymore Tsons in the Tsons codex, why are you so against it?
I'm not really against it - if GW had made it a Rubric-exclusive Codex, I wouldn't bat an eyelid. What I do oppose is the attitude people are having when they get new stuff added to their list, nothing being taken away, and it somehow being MORE dead than when it started. It makes no sense.
Thousand Sons in 40k have ALWAYS been bolter toting golems with sorceror support, and in early days, Tzaangor chaff. Then the chaff was removed. Then someone decided to give the Rubricae two more weapons to add to their arsenal. Then, Terminators. Then, the chaff comes back. Growth.
If you're argument is "well, GW added stuff to the bolter guys, so we should be able to have full heavy weapon teams, right?" - if adding stuff to the bolters is so bad, then GW could just scrap the flamers and soulreapers, and leave you with barebones bolters again. There - no reason for heavy weapons.
AegisGrimm wrote:I pose the question: When a World Eaters codex comes out should it have options for squads full of heavy weapons or special weapons? Other 30k Legion-makeup stuff like sniper squads, etc?
That wouldn't fit for World Eaters in 40k - the Nails saw to that.
Same as why it probably isn't a thing for the Thousand Sons - the Rubric, their retreat, gradual losses all make them what they are now.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:Okay so here is a fair question.
When was the last time Tzaangors made up a substantial portion of a TS army.
2nd. I'll pose a similar question.
How long have Thousand Sons been a playable army of their own?
Spoiler:
Since, what 6th? 7th? Before that, you had two whole TS units, Ahriman and the Rubric Marines. That's not a playable army.
Look at it this way; We are probably getting 14 (same as DG as you said)
Rubrics
Tzaangors on foot
Disc riding tzaangors (both or perhaps one and the other)
Scarab Occult
Sorcerers of both stripes
Mutalith perhaps
Thats sitting at around 7 unique strats, id think another 3 or so comprise psyker strats.(the ones in the chaos dex, swap spell, extra spell, and id guess a "ignore perils" strat)
The Daemon Engine strats are a given; we have every one so Blasphemous Machines and daemonforge are going to be a thing.
Id bet that were getting those for sure. Every army has unique strats to work on their own personal unit options. EVERY codex has this design philosophy.
As for points drop; 2 off each Rubric is actually fairly reasonable. Rubrics being 18 AFTER gun sounds... about right. given the current run of codexs generally making things a fair bit cheaper.
Side note; If the Tzaangor shaman gets Ld mitiation for the tzaangors I will eat my wizard robe and hat. not going to happen.
That wouldn't fit for World Eaters in 40k - the Nails saw to that.
Actually there used to be old squads called "Butchers Teeth". Where they chose to spill blood for khorne by using heavy bolters and autocannons, anything that'll rend and tear the bodies. They might just come back if GW is going for old nostalgia vs their idea of mostly melee khorne.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:Restored Sons - TS Rubrics which have been restored to their full selves, squads of 3 equip them with either Melee weapons or Heavy weapons, make them an Elites choice. Bam problem solved. they could even use the CSM box and just add some new items to it, you know like they did with the Tzaangors.
And now you just want to play 30k in 40k.
Formosa wrote:First of all I will state it again and in a much simpler way, Tzaangors are LITERALLY not Thousand sons, the keywords do not change this in anyway shape or form, the Gors are an Auxillary force used to boost the low numbers of the Tsons, as others have stated several times, in this codex however the Aux force is now in the majority, like say, ultramarines codex having 2 HQ, a lord of war an elite and a tac squad, the rest is the guard codex thrown in, see the problem there?
Why aren't they Thousand Sons, any more than a Servitor is part of the Ultramarines Chapter?
Why is a Manticore allowed in the Cadian army, despite being a Tank, not a guardsman?
Why is a Grot in the Ork codex, despite not being an Ork?
Tzaangors are in the codex, their keywords literally have <Heretic Astartes> and <Thousand Sons> - how are they any less valid than the Rubricae?
The Gors don't HAVE to be taken, they don't HAVE to be the majority of your army. You still have all the Rubricae (and more) from before, and can still make a list from them. Imagine you're at a restaurant, and you find that, alongside the meal you always order, there's a new menu item. You storm out in disgust from this new menu item, despite you not having to eat it, and your old favourite is still there.
The Ultramarine situation is not the same as this - mostly because Guardsmen aren't actually ATTACHED to Ultramarine forces. They ally together (oh wait, that's what the rules represent), but the Tzaangors are literally PART of the Thousand Sons.
I do side with chapterhouse as GW at the time was very well known for its bullying tactics, spots the space marine anyone?
In which case, we'll have to agree to disagree.
I flatly ignored the "bet" question as it was childish and not worth my time to answer, the rough rider question is just as worthless.
Why was the bet childish? It clearly shows that the Tzaangors are very well integrated into the Thousand Sons - not just a tacked on auxiliary.
And may I ask WHY the Rough Rider question is worthless?
Yes I mean Rubricai need more representation, and if GW wants to show that Tsons are a tiny fraction of numbers, then call this codex Tzaangors, and just leave the Tsons in the chaos dex, if they want a codex Tsons, then put some actual Tsons in it.... or effort.
Well, ignoring the obvious issue that Tzaangors ARE Thousand Sons, you still have all the Rubricae that Wrath of Magnus introduced, and still have the Rubric Marines which was the sole component of the faction for most of 40k's lifespan.
Again - Rubricae being a tiny fraction of numbers can be represented by you on the tabletop if you want, or, you can embrace the choice GW have given you, and not even need to field any Tzaangors.
Maybe legions can only do what you say, but then why do they follow the codex makeup of codex marines so closely, this has been an issue since 3rd to my memory, spikey marines or marines -1, thankfully the new codex isnt as crap as the old ones, but is still just spikey marines, its chaos, chapters or legions, both are very poorly represented compared to the fluff.
They follow the 1special/heavy rule mostly because it's a GW legacy rule back when bolters were slightly more than just aesthetic accessories on bodies people would rather leave unarmed now.
Realistically, giving them all bolters is the fluffiest option, seeing as that's what Legion Tacticals all had.
Narratively, you can argue that they now follow the style of the Legion Veteran Squads.
Mostly, it's GW making the 1 special/heavy rule first to apply to Space Marines of all stripes, and the FW making the Legion list which turned out different.
Hellblasters are stated to be a throwback to the legions makeup, special weapon squads basically, same with LTS and centurions, so space marines now have a legion unit (variation) because Guilliman came back, yet the same legionaries that fought in the great crusade decided "nah, I like the look of that codex right there, lets change our makeup to match that" yet another disconnect with the background and the game, being primaris is irrelevent, the fact its just a special weapons squad with a different name is what matters.
Again, as I said above, the "codex" armament is the old Legion Veteran style.
With the Primaris, it looks to me like they're treated similarly to Devastators with lighter weaponry, but regardless - it's Guilliman's choice of organisation. Chaos haven't had a restructure of the same type since they fled into the warp.
So lets ask you a direct question, why dont you want anymore Tsons in the Tsons codex, why are you so against it?
I'm not really against it - if GW had made it a Rubric-exclusive Codex, I wouldn't bat an eyelid. What I do oppose is the attitude people are having when they get new stuff added to their list, nothing being taken away, and it somehow being MORE dead than when it started. It makes no sense.
Thousand Sons in 40k have ALWAYS been bolter toting golems with sorceror support, and in early days, Tzaangor chaff. Then the chaff was removed. Then someone decided to give the Rubricae two more weapons to add to their arsenal. Then, Terminators. Then, the chaff comes back. Growth.
If you're argument is "well, GW added stuff to the bolter guys, so we should be able to have full heavy weapon teams, right?" - if adding stuff to the bolters is so bad, then GW could just scrap the flamers and soulreapers, and leave you with barebones bolters again. There - no reason for heavy weapons.
AegisGrimm wrote:I pose the question: When a World Eaters codex comes out should it have options for squads full of heavy weapons or special weapons? Other 30k Legion-makeup stuff like sniper squads, etc?
That wouldn't fit for World Eaters in 40k - the Nails saw to that.
Same as why it probably isn't a thing for the Thousand Sons - the Rubric, their retreat, gradual losses all make them what they are now.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:Okay so here is a fair question.
When was the last time Tzaangors made up a substantial portion of a TS army.
2nd. I'll pose a similar question.
How long have Thousand Sons been a playable army of their own?
[spoiler]Since, what 6th? 7th? Before that, you had two whole TS units, Ahriman and the Rubric Marines. That's not a playable army.
Please stop this is a whole lot of sophistry, Servitors and Grots don't make up the MAJORITY of subfactions unless thats exactly what your going for when it comes to grots.
The simple fact is after this codex release we will have MORE melee units that are unique to thousand sons then there are ranged focused units. We have 0 units which have a better BS then WS and we have 1 unit which has a better WS then BS. After the codex we will probably have 3 units which will have a WS better then BS and MAYBE 1 probably not even that that has a BS better then WS.
Your army should not consist mostly of chaff, chaff dont get special equipment, they dont get support units, they get dumped in a location and told to run that way and look scary, and then they die on the way there.
Auxillary units are to fill gaps that the Army can't really fill. They get support directly related to their task. Kroot in all there inceptions are good at CC and are okay at shooting, because they are an Auxiliary who is supposed to be the CC option for Tau, Grots are the same thing for Orks just in a different role, they operate equipment for Orks so Orks can hack things to bits, and can double as chaff.
Tzaangors operate totally different in TS after this codex drops. They are a troops choice, not as chaff but as the melee option, which has -1 AP weapons stock. They will also be our Fast attack which will be ranged on disks which used to be an upgrade ONLY HQs had access too, and have an elites option, probably an HQ option, there are no chaff or aux units that do this.
The lore does talk about hordes of Tzaangors and that's great. Just tell me about some of the Tzaangor Charcters in the fluff. What great deeds they have done, or is the Thousand Sons that are the main focus in the fluff, they talk about how Rubrics did this and how this Sorcerer did that. Not how Click Clack the Twistbray lead the charge.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:Restored Sons - TS Rubrics which have been restored to their full selves, squads of 3 equip them with either Melee weapons or Heavy weapons, make them an Elites choice. Bam problem solved. they could even use the CSM box and just add some new items to it, you know like they did with the Tzaangors.
And now you just want to play 30k in 40k.
Formosa wrote:First of all I will state it again and in a much simpler way, Tzaangors are LITERALLY not Thousand sons, the keywords do not change this in anyway shape or form, the Gors are an Auxillary force used to boost the low numbers of the Tsons, as others have stated several times, in this codex however the Aux force is now in the majority, like say, ultramarines codex having 2 HQ, a lord of war an elite and a tac squad, the rest is the guard codex thrown in, see the problem there?
Why aren't they Thousand Sons, any more than a Servitor is part of the Ultramarines Chapter?
Why is a Manticore allowed in the Cadian army, despite being a Tank, not a guardsman?
Why is a Grot in the Ork codex, despite not being an Ork?
Tzaangors are in the codex, their keywords literally have <Heretic Astartes> and <Thousand Sons> - how are they any less valid than the Rubricae?
The Gors don't HAVE to be taken, they don't HAVE to be the majority of your army. You still have all the Rubricae (and more) from before, and can still make a list from them. Imagine you're at a restaurant, and you find that, alongside the meal you always order, there's a new menu item. You storm out in disgust from this new menu item, despite you not having to eat it, and your old favourite is still there.
The Ultramarine situation is not the same as this - mostly because Guardsmen aren't actually ATTACHED to Ultramarine forces. They ally together (oh wait, that's what the rules represent), but the Tzaangors are literally PART of the Thousand Sons.
I do side with chapterhouse as GW at the time was very well known for its bullying tactics, spots the space marine anyone?
In which case, we'll have to agree to disagree.
I flatly ignored the "bet" question as it was childish and not worth my time to answer, the rough rider question is just as worthless.
Why was the bet childish? It clearly shows that the Tzaangors are very well integrated into the Thousand Sons - not just a tacked on auxiliary.
And may I ask WHY the Rough Rider question is worthless?
Yes I mean Rubricai need more representation, and if GW wants to show that Tsons are a tiny fraction of numbers, then call this codex Tzaangors, and just leave the Tsons in the chaos dex, if they want a codex Tsons, then put some actual Tsons in it.... or effort.
Well, ignoring the obvious issue that Tzaangors ARE Thousand Sons, you still have all the Rubricae that Wrath of Magnus introduced, and still have the Rubric Marines which was the sole component of the faction for most of 40k's lifespan.
Again - Rubricae being a tiny fraction of numbers can be represented by you on the tabletop if you want, or, you can embrace the choice GW have given you, and not even need to field any Tzaangors.
Maybe legions can only do what you say, but then why do they follow the codex makeup of codex marines so closely, this has been an issue since 3rd to my memory, spikey marines or marines -1, thankfully the new codex isnt as crap as the old ones, but is still just spikey marines, its chaos, chapters or legions, both are very poorly represented compared to the fluff.
They follow the 1special/heavy rule mostly because it's a GW legacy rule back when bolters were slightly more than just aesthetic accessories on bodies people would rather leave unarmed now.
Realistically, giving them all bolters is the fluffiest option, seeing as that's what Legion Tacticals all had.
Narratively, you can argue that they now follow the style of the Legion Veteran Squads.
Mostly, it's GW making the 1 special/heavy rule first to apply to Space Marines of all stripes, and the FW making the Legion list which turned out different.
Hellblasters are stated to be a throwback to the legions makeup, special weapon squads basically, same with LTS and centurions, so space marines now have a legion unit (variation) because Guilliman came back, yet the same legionaries that fought in the great crusade decided "nah, I like the look of that codex right there, lets change our makeup to match that" yet another disconnect with the background and the game, being primaris is irrelevent, the fact its just a special weapons squad with a different name is what matters.
Again, as I said above, the "codex" armament is the old Legion Veteran style.
With the Primaris, it looks to me like they're treated similarly to Devastators with lighter weaponry, but regardless - it's Guilliman's choice of organisation. Chaos haven't had a restructure of the same type since they fled into the warp.
So lets ask you a direct question, why dont you want anymore Tsons in the Tsons codex, why are you so against it?
I'm not really against it - if GW had made it a Rubric-exclusive Codex, I wouldn't bat an eyelid. What I do oppose is the attitude people are having when they get new stuff added to their list, nothing being taken away, and it somehow being MORE dead than when it started. It makes no sense.
Thousand Sons in 40k have ALWAYS been bolter toting golems with sorceror support, and in early days, Tzaangor chaff. Then the chaff was removed. Then someone decided to give the Rubricae two more weapons to add to their arsenal. Then, Terminators. Then, the chaff comes back. Growth.
If you're argument is "well, GW added stuff to the bolter guys, so we should be able to have full heavy weapon teams, right?" - if adding stuff to the bolters is so bad, then GW could just scrap the flamers and soulreapers, and leave you with barebones bolters again. There - no reason for heavy weapons.
AegisGrimm wrote:I pose the question: When a World Eaters codex comes out should it have options for squads full of heavy weapons or special weapons? Other 30k Legion-makeup stuff like sniper squads, etc?
That wouldn't fit for World Eaters in 40k - the Nails saw to that.
Same as why it probably isn't a thing for the Thousand Sons - the Rubric, their retreat, gradual losses all make them what they are now.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:Okay so here is a fair question.
When was the last time Tzaangors made up a substantial portion of a TS army.
2nd. I'll pose a similar question.
How long have Thousand Sons been a playable army of their own?
[spoiler]Since, what 6th? 7th? Before that, you had two whole TS units, Ahriman and the Rubric Marines. That's not a playable army.
Please stop this is a whole lot of sophistry, Servitors and Grots don't make up the MAJORITY of subfactions unless thats exactly what your going for when it comes to grots.
The simple fact is after this codex release we will have MORE melee units that are unique to thousand sons then there are ranged focused units. We have 0 units which have a better BS then WS and we have 1 unit which has a better WS then BS. After the codex we will probably have 3 units which will have a WS better then BS and MAYBE 1 probably not even that that has a BS better then WS.
Your army should not consist mostly of chaff, chaff dont get special equipment, they dont get support units, they get dumped in a location and told to wait, and then they die there.
Auxillary units are to fill gaps that the Army can't really fill. They get support directly related to their task. Kroot in all there inceptions are good at CC and are okay at shooting, because they are an Auxiliary who is supposed to be the CC option for Tau, Grots are the same thing for Orks just in a different role, they operate equipment for Orks so Orks can hack things to bits, and can double as chaff.
Tzaangors operate totally different in TS after this codex drops. They are a troops choice, not as chaff but as the melee option, which has -1 AP weapons stock. They will also be our Fast attack which will be ranged on disks which used to be an upgrade ONLY HQs had access too, and have an elites option, probably an HQ option, there are no chaff or aux units that do this.
The lore does talk about hordes of Tzaangors and that's great. Just tell me about some of the Tzaangor Charcters in the fluff. What great deeds they have done, or is the Thousand Sons that are the main focus in the fluff, they talk about how Rubrics did this and how this Sorcerer did that. Not how Click Clack the Twistbray lead the charge.
Here's hoping for a playable TS army in 9th.
God damn this is beyond hilarious. The core stuff that has always been in a thousand sons army is still there. Rubrics, Rhinos, Sorcerors, Predators, Helbrutes (though I use the HF Contemptor rules for my Osiron because I don't feel that going bezerk is very Thousand Sons-y) and the special terminators. Thousand Sons get as much stuff as any minor unique chapter of marines gets - some unique weapons, a unique squad composition for a "twist" on the basic tactical squad, a couple special named characters, and a special kind of terminators. There's no difference between them and Black Templars, or Deathwatch, compared to space marines. The only difference now is that you've got more options for your unique cultist unit (which is incidentally the only difference between my Thousand Sons army now and how it has been for years - I added a unit of Tzaangors in place of my usual unit of cultists that has always been there).
"Chaff don't get upgrades/buffs" is just laughable. What the heck are these upgraded units with stubbers and flamers I have here for my cultists? What's a guard special weapon/heavy weapon team? What is a Dark Apostle, a Commissar, or a Kroot Shaper? A Tzaangor Shaman is going to be the equivalent of a Dark Apostle for regular CSMs, its a dude you sink points into if you want to invest more into your front line of chaff.... juuuust like I use the Changeling for when I want to have a unit of horrors screening for my bolter boys. Also, for the record, I almost always have more cultist/tzaangor/whatever MODELS in my army but I still end up spending 3/4 or more of my points on thousand sons. Funny how that works when the cheap models are like 7 points apiece.
Maybe if something like this is difficult to grasp, that may be a factor in why you believe thousand sons are completely unplayable worthless trash and you won't be allowed to play them without fielding mostly tzaangors. Shooting armies that don't like to be in melee with melee specialists work well when there's cheap dudes standing in front of them. It ain't rocket science.
You mentioned kroot, who occupy almost the exact same space in a Tau army complete with options in many of the same slots, then said this was unprecedented?
Also, it's an entirely playable fluff tsons army. It just isn't what you want. You want to play 30k, with a pure marine force. Which is fine, nothing wrong with that, it's just that tsons don't operate like that in 40k. They never have and likely never will. After all, the army actually present is far more interesting than a mere reskin of CSM with some rubric rules tossed on the various units, and will likely only gain in popularity.
The fact of the matter is I'm not even sure why you are bothered, you don't seem that invested in tson lore. You suggested adding reborn non rubric marine squads as if that wouldn't undermine everything about the tson's narrative and place in 40k. Just take a small tson force alongside your CSM main army, if you just want to use some of their unique units.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:Restored Sons - TS Rubrics which have been restored to their full selves, squads of 3 equip them with either Melee weapons or Heavy weapons, make them an Elites choice. Bam problem solved. they could even use the CSM box and just add some new items to it, you know like they did with the Tzaangors.
And now you just want to play 30k in 40k.
Formosa wrote:First of all I will state it again and in a much simpler way, Tzaangors are LITERALLY not Thousand sons, the keywords do not change this in anyway shape or form, the Gors are an Auxillary force used to boost the low numbers of the Tsons, as others have stated several times, in this codex however the Aux force is now in the majority, like say, ultramarines codex having 2 HQ, a lord of war an elite and a tac squad, the rest is the guard codex thrown in, see the problem there?
Why aren't they Thousand Sons, any more than a Servitor is part of the Ultramarines Chapter?
Why is a Manticore allowed in the Cadian army, despite being a Tank, not a guardsman?
Why is a Grot in the Ork codex, despite not being an Ork?
Tzaangors are in the codex, their keywords literally have <Heretic Astartes> and <Thousand Sons> - how are they any less valid than the Rubricae?
The Gors don't HAVE to be taken, they don't HAVE to be the majority of your army. You still have all the Rubricae (and more) from before, and can still make a list from them. Imagine you're at a restaurant, and you find that, alongside the meal you always order, there's a new menu item. You storm out in disgust from this new menu item, despite you not having to eat it, and your old favourite is still there.
The Ultramarine situation is not the same as this - mostly because Guardsmen aren't actually ATTACHED to Ultramarine forces. They ally together (oh wait, that's what the rules represent), but the Tzaangors are literally PART of the Thousand Sons.
I do side with chapterhouse as GW at the time was very well known for its bullying tactics, spots the space marine anyone?
In which case, we'll have to agree to disagree.
I flatly ignored the "bet" question as it was childish and not worth my time to answer, the rough rider question is just as worthless.
Why was the bet childish? It clearly shows that the Tzaangors are very well integrated into the Thousand Sons - not just a tacked on auxiliary.
And may I ask WHY the Rough Rider question is worthless?
Yes I mean Rubricai need more representation, and if GW wants to show that Tsons are a tiny fraction of numbers, then call this codex Tzaangors, and just leave the Tsons in the chaos dex, if they want a codex Tsons, then put some actual Tsons in it.... or effort.
Well, ignoring the obvious issue that Tzaangors ARE Thousand Sons, you still have all the Rubricae that Wrath of Magnus introduced, and still have the Rubric Marines which was the sole component of the faction for most of 40k's lifespan.
Again - Rubricae being a tiny fraction of numbers can be represented by you on the tabletop if you want, or, you can embrace the choice GW have given you, and not even need to field any Tzaangors.
Maybe legions can only do what you say, but then why do they follow the codex makeup of codex marines so closely, this has been an issue since 3rd to my memory, spikey marines or marines -1, thankfully the new codex isnt as crap as the old ones, but is still just spikey marines, its chaos, chapters or legions, both are very poorly represented compared to the fluff.
They follow the 1special/heavy rule mostly because it's a GW legacy rule back when bolters were slightly more than just aesthetic accessories on bodies people would rather leave unarmed now.
Realistically, giving them all bolters is the fluffiest option, seeing as that's what Legion Tacticals all had.
Narratively, you can argue that they now follow the style of the Legion Veteran Squads.
Mostly, it's GW making the 1 special/heavy rule first to apply to Space Marines of all stripes, and the FW making the Legion list which turned out different.
Hellblasters are stated to be a throwback to the legions makeup, special weapon squads basically, same with LTS and centurions, so space marines now have a legion unit (variation) because Guilliman came back, yet the same legionaries that fought in the great crusade decided "nah, I like the look of that codex right there, lets change our makeup to match that" yet another disconnect with the background and the game, being primaris is irrelevent, the fact its just a special weapons squad with a different name is what matters.
Again, as I said above, the "codex" armament is the old Legion Veteran style.
With the Primaris, it looks to me like they're treated similarly to Devastators with lighter weaponry, but regardless - it's Guilliman's choice of organisation. Chaos haven't had a restructure of the same type since they fled into the warp.
So lets ask you a direct question, why dont you want anymore Tsons in the Tsons codex, why are you so against it?
I'm not really against it - if GW had made it a Rubric-exclusive Codex, I wouldn't bat an eyelid. What I do oppose is the attitude people are having when they get new stuff added to their list, nothing being taken away, and it somehow being MORE dead than when it started. It makes no sense.
Thousand Sons in 40k have ALWAYS been bolter toting golems with sorceror support, and in early days, Tzaangor chaff. Then the chaff was removed. Then someone decided to give the Rubricae two more weapons to add to their arsenal. Then, Terminators. Then, the chaff comes back. Growth.
If you're argument is "well, GW added stuff to the bolter guys, so we should be able to have full heavy weapon teams, right?" - if adding stuff to the bolters is so bad, then GW could just scrap the flamers and soulreapers, and leave you with barebones bolters again. There - no reason for heavy weapons.
AegisGrimm wrote:I pose the question: When a World Eaters codex comes out should it have options for squads full of heavy weapons or special weapons? Other 30k Legion-makeup stuff like sniper squads, etc?
That wouldn't fit for World Eaters in 40k - the Nails saw to that.
Same as why it probably isn't a thing for the Thousand Sons - the Rubric, their retreat, gradual losses all make them what they are now.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:Okay so here is a fair question.
When was the last time Tzaangors made up a substantial portion of a TS army.
2nd. I'll pose a similar question.
How long have Thousand Sons been a playable army of their own?
Spoiler:
Since, what 6th? 7th? Before that, you had two whole TS units, Ahriman and the Rubric Marines. That's not a playable army.
Wow your examples are really really missing the point, a grot is an orkoid species from the same fungus, so swiftly ignoring that example, a manticore is a tank manned by guardsman, so guard, so swiftly ignoring that one too, now explain how a gor is a space Marine, how thousand sons make gors sorcerers or rubrics ? You can't, because they are literally not thousand sons in the same manner a pox walker isn't a death guard Marine, you seem to lack the ability to distinguish the "keyword" with actual fluff.
Yes we will have to agree to disagree on the chapterhouse thing.
The rough rider thing is worthless as codex guard isn't codex rough riders, if they made a codex rough riders I would expect more rough riders units in the codex to make it workable, your example is pointless, think of a better one and I'll be willing to discuss it.
Tzaangors are NOT thousand sons, they are mutants that work with thousand sons and share the codex, learn this distinction.
If they are vets as you say, where are the vet skills for the entire chaos marine line up, as I said before I agree it's a legacy throwback and just the way gw wants chaos marine to play, still doesn't fit the fluff though, and your wrong, chaos marines have had restructuring a hell of a lot more than codex chapters who have only really had it once, the codex itself, chaos warbands use what they can get, so it makes sense for them, it doesn't make sense for the legions that are still legions, word bearers, iron warriors and Tsons, the last one is vastly reduced but we still haven't had any fluff that shows they are radically different from the old legion, other than size.
Yep, gw should remove the weapons from rubrics tacs, put the specials in a special weapon squad and heavies in the heavy squad, glad you finally get that.
As for how long Tsons has been a playable army, it's irrelevant, they are now getting there own codex, and nothing you have said explains why they are now the massive minority in there own codex, I like that tzaangors have been added but can completely understand why people want more actual thousand sons in there codex, especially when it would be so easy to do.
It sounds like some of you would enjoy the game more if you just ported the 30k Thousand Sons rules to 40k 8th edition, which has already been done (check out the 30k forums) for you.
Though if you were playing me, I'd probably just offer to play the Heresy, since I have a couple 30k armies.
Please stop this is a whole lot of sophistry, Servitors and Grots don't make up the MAJORITY of subfactions unless thats exactly what your going for when it comes to grots.
Servitors and grots don't exist in armies where the main unit is a mindless automaton.
Your army should not consist mostly of chaff, chaff dont get special equipment, they dont get support units, they get dumped in a location and told to wait, and then they die there.
It actually should unless you want to get rolled by alpha strikes - at least by model count; not by points.
Rubric Marines, Sorcerors, Ahriman, Magnus, Land Raider, Exalted Sorcerors, Scarab Occult, Predators, Vindicators, Rhinos, Helbrutes (unless you want to disqualify them as Daemon Engines, since there is no real functional difference between using a Tsons dreadnought as a regular dreadnought I'm including them in the list)
Do I have that right? If so, Tsons would seem to have the non-Tsons units in the codex outnumbered 2:1.
Or is the argument here that, for example, a Thousand Sons Predator is not a Thousand Sons unit because it doesn't have any unique rules compared to any other CSM predator.
Because if that's the argument, then...yeah, I guess you're right. But that's also going to be the case for almost every "marines but not" faction. They're all MASSIVELY outnumbered by "non-unique" units with the possible exception of like, Grey Knights. Presumably unless the Tsons Chapter Tactic is some kind of psyker-only trait so it won't effect Helbrutes, you're still going to be looking at Rubrics, Scarabs, Sorcerors, Ahriman, Exalted Sorcs, Helbrutes and Magnus. Unless we're getting into the territory where ANYTHING that appears in similar form in other codexes doesn't count, and you'd argue that (for example) a Dark Angels Assault Squad is not a Dark Angels unit because Assault Squads appear in other armies...
By the time I take the current core of my thousand sons army (20 rubrics, 10 terminators, Ahriman, an exalted Sorceror on disc, a Dreadnought, a Predator, and two Rhinos) I'm at like 1600 points. And I'm not even using four Thousand Sons unit choices. The only real hole you have in the list is a good anti-horde infantry choice, and honestly I'm fine with having there be a hole. There's a psyker and melee unit shaped hole in pure Tau lists. there's an anti-infantry shooting unit shaped hole in pure Khorne Daemon lists. Armies can have holes that you can either work around or fill with a supplementary/auxiliary unit choice.
Bobug wrote: What about standard csms? I know its generally accepted all non-sorc TS are rubrics but what about those recruited after the heresy/rubric? Has it ever actually been stated that thousand sons cant recruit new marines? Ive never questioned it before but technically shouldn't they be able to recruit from the populations in the eye and worlds they invade or from clones like the other chaos legions?
Very much the opposite. The thousand sons are either:
A. Powerful leaders with multiple sorcerers and minions underneath them.
B. Hunted for their psychic abilities by other warbands continuously and/or forced into service against their will. (In may horrific ways lol.)
I mean you are talking about an entire chapter of minor/major sorcerers, that's a really valuable resource in the Eye.
Well, Thursday or Friday, warhammer TV is going to have Custodes vs Thousand Sons with some preview of the codex. I predict a slaughter that will make Thousand Sons new codex look like an embarrassment.
Yes I wish we were getting more models, but the vast majority of factions are not getting new models, and I am happy with the AOS units being ported over (I hope the Orge is included because I own a really well painted one and the model is great). What I am really worried about for the codex is the stratagems, relics, spells etc.
What I hope will happen....
Our "chapter tactic" is something useful like +1 invul (or 5+ invul if don't have one) or even +1 to cast spells for characters. What the "chapter tactic" is will be important to how good the codex is.
I hope we get something like DG got with dreadnoughts getting an extra "chapter tactic" that our dreadnoughts get "All is Dust". That would be fluffy and cool.
I expect we will get some of the universal chaos marine stratagems, like the daemon vehicle one, blasphemous machines, and of course VoTLW. I hope our unique stratagems have at least one infiltrate/deep strike stratagem as Thousand Sons use deceit as a tactic and use portals in the fluff.
we keep the Dark Herictic powers, but also get 3 to 6 tzeentch powers (personally I think there will be 9 powers, the DH powers, and then Weaver of Fates, Tzeentch Fire Storm, and one more).
I hope the relics are better than the one in the CA, and same for the warlord trait.
PRICE DROP for Rubics. They should be 16 points per model, (as the better death guard are 17) and we should not pay any extra tax for the sorcerer, he should just be a free upgrade if he keeps only mini-smite. There should be a price drop for SoT but all terminators are overpriced, so I doubt that will happen.
nintura wrote: Well, Thursday or Friday, warhammer TV is going to have Custodes vs Thousand Sons with some preview of the codex. I predict a slaughter that will make Thousand Sons new codex look like an embarrassment.
Considering these battle reports are always showcases, it isn't hard to make educated guesses based on what they want to show off. For example:
1. The anti horde options of custodes will be on full display versus the normal tzaangors and cultists
2. The new elite gors and shamans will be shown off and compared favorable to the normal gors in this context, to show that non horde options are good as well.
3. Expect them to make a point of how the custodes can resist mortal wounds from psychic powers.
4. Probably going to get the vortex beast showing off a little, that seems minor enough to spoil this far ahead.
5. The end will be a close win by custodes facilitated by the fact they have objective secured on all infantry and bikes.
The above make sense, we will also probably see what the new lore has in store, or learn about what is going on in regards to our legion tactic and strategems.
Idk about all the negative nancies on here but I personally cant wait. going to be alot of fun when the codex is out. And yes; I will try the 40+ rubrics list quite often assuming our legion trait is fairly decent for them.
Hopefully tomorrow we get to see what happens with SOT and Rubricae, as most have said I agree they should always be staples in a Sons list well before the goats.
Is it confirmed that TS will be using their new dex?
Never mind just read the post and they are!! Count me excited!!
While a script is not hard to believe do you not think they will just play and let the chips fall where they may? Or is just an episode of Monday night RAW to show off the new franchise and have 1000 sons do the job? I would hope that they just play without a predetermined outcome.
nintura wrote: Well, Thursday or Friday, warhammer TV is going to have Custodes vs Thousand Sons with some preview of the codex. I predict a slaughter that will make Thousand Sons new codex look like an embarrassment.
Considering these battle reports are always showcases, it isn't hard to make educated guesses based on what they want to show off. For example:
1. The anti horde options of custodes will be on full display versus the normal tzaangors and cultists
2. The new elite gors and shamans will be shown off and compared favorable to the normal gors in this context, to show that non horde options are good as well.
3. Expect them to make a point of how the custodes can resist mortal wounds from psychic powers.
4. Probably going to get the vortex beast showing off a little, that seems minor enough to spoil this far ahead.
5. The end will be a close win by custodes facilitated by the fact they have objective secured on all infantry and bikes.
I suspect you're mostly right, although I imagine they'll also highlight the 1k sons psykic options and note that the custodes are "somewhat lacking in anti-psyker options aas such the new thousand sons are an excellent choice for chaos to fight these elite troops"
You mentioned kroot, who occupy almost the exact same space in a Tau army complete with options in many of the same slots, then said this was unprecedented?
Also, it's an entirely playable fluff tsons army. It just isn't what you want. You want to play 30k, with a pure marine force. Which is fine, nothing wrong with that, it's just that tsons don't operate like that in 40k. They never have and likely never will. After all, the army actually present is far more interesting than a mere reskin of CSM with some rubric rules tossed on the various units, and will likely only gain in popularity.
The fact of the matter is I'm not even sure why you are bothered, you don't seem that invested in tson lore. You suggested adding reborn non rubric marine squads as if that wouldn't undermine everything about the tson's narrative and place in 40k. Just take a small tson force alongside your CSM main army, if you just want to use some of their unique units.
I dont want a pure Marine force I have said as much several times. I don't mind Tzaangors as aux units I mind when my aux units have more options then the Iconic units in an army.
I currently use Tzaangors, Rubrics, SOT, and Alpha Legion Suppliments.
As for what I want. That will never happen. 5 disciplines 1 for each cult, 3-4 spells per discipline. maybe 4 different Rubric units and 2-3 HQ options. Thats it its not like Im asking for the world
Suggested reborn non rubrics as another way to fill a slot not as something I would like or prefer. It was a better then all Tzzangor "release"
nintura wrote: Well, Thursday or Friday, warhammer TV is going to have Custodes vs Thousand Sons with some preview of the codex. I predict a slaughter that will make Thousand Sons new codex look like an embarrassment.
Considering these battle reports are always showcases, it isn't hard to make educated guesses based on what they want to show off. For example:
1. The anti horde options of custodes will be on full display versus the normal tzaangors and cultists
2. The new elite gors and shamans will be shown off and compared favorable to the normal gors in this context, to show that non horde options are good as well.
3. Expect them to make a point of how the custodes can resist mortal wounds from psychic powers.
4. Probably going to get the vortex beast showing off a little, that seems minor enough to spoil this far ahead.
5. The end will be a close win by custodes facilitated by the fact they have objective secured on all infantry and bikes.
I suspect you're mostly right, although I imagine they'll also highlight the 1k sons psykic options and note that the custodes are "somewhat lacking in anti-psyker options aas such the new thousand sons are an excellent choice for chaos to fight these elite troops"
Agreed i dont know how scripted it will be but it will probably be at least a little since thier trying to showcase how the armies play.
Formosa wrote:I will try to say this politely, read the thread, my posts specifically, then come back and to me, I have said repeatedly I like tzaangors and like they are added to the book
Then why does it seem like you're complaining so hard about getting new stuff?
Formosa wrote:To your other statements, tzaangors have not been part of the fluff since 2nd, now they are back, cool, that good, more models, nice ones at that, but don't pretend "they have always been there" because I have yet to see them ever mentioned in 40k since 3rd, beastmen sure, but not tzaangors, khornegors, slaangors or pestigors, they were pretty much squatted until recently.
They were established as a thing back in the day and were never contradicted (same as Imperial Knights) and there were calls for their return for years while more than a few players used beastmen models as cultists to represent them. As for fluff, IIRC they were mentioned in battle of the fang (and possibly the prequel too) as being part of the assault among various other forces and again IIRC in the Ahriman trilogy (though the Tzaangor models had likely been greenlit by GW when John French was writing the series) as well as (again, IIRC), being statted out in one of the FFGRPG's (Dark Heresy maybe?).
Formosa wrote:Your example of the guard doesn't work in the slightest and isn't even referencing what I'm talking about, you can't throw an ork into the space Marine codex and give it the "astartes" keyword then claim it's a space Marine, tzaangors are not thousand sons, they are aux troops, that's it, adding the "thousand sons" keyword does not suddenly make them space Marines, finding it hard that people are not getting that, especially when I said "literally" are not thousand sons.
I'm not saying that you should throw an Ork into a marine army, I'm saying that just because they're not wearing power armour doesn't mean that they're not part of a TS army. By your logic, scouts don't belong in a marine army 'cause they're not full marines, grots don't belong in an ork army , hell, by your reasoning, poxwalkers don't belong in a death guard army and the sky is falling since they have the Heretic Astartes keyword. They (Tzaangors) have the HA keyword because that's how the keyword system works and they would be unusable without it (ie, couldn't cast spells on them from TS sorcs, wouldn't benefit from various rules that require the HA keyword etc, would break certain army composition requirements). They're not claiming that they're marines, just that they're part of the armylist.
Formosa wrote:I want more rubricai for the simple reason that these units should already be in the book, if they can hand wave sekmets into being rubrics, then why can't we have rubrics in other slots, im yet to see a valid fluff reason for why certain units cannot exist, as you say Tsons only had bolters until recently and suddenly they got some heresy era kit, as soon as that was introduced it created this very issue, if it had stayed just bolters I would be agreeing with you, but now I'm like "if they have these weapons, why are they not useing them as they have been trained to?" It made no sense, I do agree that it seems to be a legacy "spikey marine" issue, but as I said earlier in the thread, this book was a great opportunity to add more character to the Tsons, bulk out the Rubrics a bit, instead we have gotten a major focus on tzaangors, which is wrong for a thousand sons codex.
I can only imagine it's because rubricae aren't marines anymore, they're animated suits of armour? ie anything more complicated than a bolter, slugthrower (the not!Assault cannon) or a flamer is beyond them to operate reliably. As for adding character, well, you and I will have to agree to disagree on that one since giving them the equivalent of Rubricae Havoks or similar would feel like it takes away a lot of their character. I think that the Disc riding Tzaangors are a good compromise to give a TS army some mobile power without simply making them a copy-paste job of regular CSM. In my book, differentiating the Sons by making them utilise different units compared to all the other, non-dust legions gives them more character, not less. They're still a marine army, they've still got bolter plebs and marine vehicles, but they've got their own distinct flavour. Even with all this, you still don't have to take non-marine units, you still have options in fielding rubrics with sorc and vehicle support if you want.
SilverAlien wrote:
nintura wrote: Well, Thursday or Friday, warhammer TV is going to have Custodes vs Thousand Sons with some preview of the codex. I predict a slaughter that will make Thousand Sons new codex look like an embarrassment.
Considering these battle reports are always showcases, it isn't hard to make educated guesses based on what they want to show off. For example:
1. The anti horde options of custodes will be on full display versus the normal tzaangors and cultists
2. The new elite gors and shamans will be shown off and compared favorable to the normal gors in this context, to show that non horde options are good as well.
3. Expect them to make a point of how the custodes can resist mortal wounds from psychic powers.
4. Probably going to get the vortex beast showing off a little, that seems minor enough to spoil this far ahead.
5. The end will be a close win by custodes facilitated by the fact they have objective secured on all infantry and bikes.
Do I need to remind you of the Woofs Vs Sons game where they were showing off the return of Magnus? Even looking at the lists, the Sons were going to get a raping even if they weren't horrendously misplayed from the start. What they want probably doesn't match with their competance to get said result.
Formosa wrote:I will try to say this politely, read the thread, my posts specifically, then come back and to me, I have said repeatedly I like tzaangors and like they are added to the book
Then why does it seem like you're complaining so hard about getting new stuff?
Formosa wrote:To your other statements, tzaangors have not been part of the fluff since 2nd, now they are back, cool, that good, more models, nice ones at that, but don't pretend "they have always been there" because I have yet to see them ever mentioned in 40k since 3rd, beastmen sure, but not tzaangors, khornegors, slaangors or pestigors, they were pretty much squatted until recently.
They were established as a thing back in the day and were never contradicted (same as Imperial Knights) and there were calls for their return for years while more than a few players used beastmen models as cultists to represent them. As for fluff, IIRC they were mentioned in battle of the fang (and possibly the prequel too) as being part of the assault among various other forces and again IIRC in the Ahriman trilogy (though the Tzaangor models had likely been greenlit by GW when John French was writing the series) as well as (again, IIRC), being statted out in one of the FFGRPG's (Dark Heresy maybe?).
Formosa wrote:Your example of the guard doesn't work in the slightest and isn't even referencing what I'm talking about, you can't throw an ork into the space Marine codex and give it the "astartes" keyword then claim it's a space Marine, tzaangors are not thousand sons, they are aux troops, that's it, adding the "thousand sons" keyword does not suddenly make them space Marines, finding it hard that people are not getting that, especially when I said "literally" are not thousand sons.
I'm not saying that you should throw an Ork into a marine army, I'm saying that just because they're not wearing power armour doesn't mean that they're not part of a TS army. By your logic, scouts don't belong in a marine army 'cause they're not full marines, grots don't belong in an ork army , hell, by your reasoning, poxwalkers don't belong in a death guard army and the sky is falling since they have the Heretic Astartes keyword. They (Tzaangors) have the HA keyword because that's how the keyword system works and they would be unusable without it (ie, couldn't cast spells on them from TS sorcs, wouldn't benefit from various rules that require the HA keyword etc, would break certain army composition requirements). They're not claiming that they're marines, just that they're part of the armylist.
Formosa wrote:I want more rubricai for the simple reason that these units should already be in the book, if they can hand wave sekmets into being rubrics, then why can't we have rubrics in other slots, im yet to see a valid fluff reason for why certain units cannot exist, as you say Tsons only had bolters until recently and suddenly they got some heresy era kit, as soon as that was introduced it created this very issue, if it had stayed just bolters I would be agreeing with you, but now I'm like "if they have these weapons, why are they not useing them as they have been trained to?" It made no sense, I do agree that it seems to be a legacy "spikey marine" issue, but as I said earlier in the thread, this book was a great opportunity to add more character to the Tsons, bulk out the Rubrics a bit, instead we have gotten a major focus on tzaangors, which is wrong for a thousand sons codex.
I can only imagine it's because rubricae aren't marines anymore, they're animated suits of armour? ie anything more complicated than a bolter, slugthrower (the not!Assault cannon) or a flamer is beyond them to operate reliably. As for adding character, well, you and I will have to agree to disagree on that one since giving them the equivalent of Rubricae Havoks or similar would feel like it takes away a lot of their character. I think that the Disc riding Tzaangors are a good compromise to give a TS army some mobile power without simply making them a copy-paste job of regular CSM. In my book, differentiating the Sons by making them utilise different units compared to all the other, non-dust legions gives them more character, not less. They're still a marine army, they've still got bolter plebs and marine vehicles, but they've got their own distinct flavour. Even with all this, you still don't have to take non-marine units, you still have options in fielding rubrics with sorc and vehicle support if you want.
Again with this Fasle Equivalency stuff.
No one is saying no Tzaangors allowed. We just want more Rubric options then Tzaangors as options. We want the focus to be on Rubrics with Tzaangors filling a couple holes. After this codex drops we are going to have more Tzaangors then Rubrics as options. If no one knew anything about this game and you showed them a TS army they would think the TS units are the support units and the bird men are the real army.
If we were getting another Rubric focused HQ and EITHER a heavy support, or a fast attack Rubric unit, I would be all about this release. I can deal with 50-50. Not getting anything on the Rubric side and getting 3 on the Tzaangor side means I have an Army of Tzaangors supported by Rubrics.
Watch this mutalith is just another kit they already had. Why couldn't they male a Sorc Drednaught? Makes perfect sence. Dying legion that needs to get the most milage out of its members uses tech to extend the existance of the few member it has, right? No lets cram a pleb no-name CSM (which we don't have access to btw) into this metal hunk, whats that put a psyker in there? Na that would be effective amd deady we dont want that.
Spoiler:
SilverAlien wrote:
nintura wrote: Well, Thursday or Friday, warhammer TV is going to have Custodes vs Thousand Sons with some preview of the codex. I predict a slaughter that will make Thousand Sons new codex look like an embarrassment.
Considering these battle reports are always showcases, it isn't hard to make educated guesses based on what they want to show off. For example:
1. The anti horde options of custodes will be on full display versus the normal tzaangors and cultists
2. The new elite gors and shamans will be shown off and compared favorable to the normal gors in this context, to show that non horde options are good as well.
3. Expect them to make a point of how the custodes can resist mortal wounds from psychic powers.
4. Probably going to get the vortex beast showing off a little, that seems minor enough to spoil this far ahead.
5. The end will be a close win by custodes facilitated by the fact they have objective secured on all infantry and bikes.
Do I need to remind you of the Woofs Vs Sons game where they were showing off the return of Magnus? Even looking at the lists, the Sons were going to get a raping even if they weren't horrendously misplayed from the start. What they want probably doesn't match with their competance to get said result.
I dont think it will be a slaughter, but why that will be the case will be up for debate. They are trying to sell both armies not just 1.
Formosa wrote:I will try to say this politely, read the thread, my posts specifically, then come back and to me, I have said repeatedly I like tzaangors and like they are added to the book
1: Then why does it seem like you're complaining so hard about getting new stuff?
Formosa wrote:To your other statements, tzaangors have not been part of the fluff since 2nd, now they are back, cool, that good, more models, nice ones at that, but don't pretend "they have always been there" because I have yet to see them ever mentioned in 40k since 3rd, beastmen sure, but not tzaangors, khornegors, slaangors or pestigors, they were pretty much squatted until recently.
2: They were established as a thing back in the day and were never contradicted (same as Imperial Knights) and there were calls for their return for years while more than a few players used beastmen models as cultists to represent them. As for fluff, IIRC they were mentioned in battle of the fang (and possibly the prequel too) as being part of the assault among various other forces and again IIRC in the Ahriman trilogy (though the Tzaangor models had likely been greenlit by GW when John French was writing the series) as well as (again, IIRC), being statted out in one of the FFGRPG's (Dark Heresy maybe?).
Formosa wrote:Your example of the guard doesn't work in the slightest and isn't even referencing what I'm talking about, you can't throw an ork into the space Marine codex and give it the "astartes" keyword then claim it's a space Marine, tzaangors are not thousand sons, they are aux troops, that's it, adding the "thousand sons" keyword does not suddenly make them space Marines, finding it hard that people are not getting that, especially when I said "literally" are not thousand sons.
3: I'm not saying that you should throw an Ork into a marine army, I'm saying that just because they're not wearing power armour doesn't mean that they're not part of a TS army. By your logic, scouts don't belong in a marine army 'cause they're not full marines, grots don't belong in an ork army , hell, by your reasoning, poxwalkers don't belong in a death guard army and the sky is falling since they have the Heretic Astartes keyword. They (Tzaangors) have the HA keyword because that's how the keyword system works and they would be unusable without it (ie, couldn't cast spells on them from TS sorcs, wouldn't benefit from various rules that require the HA keyword etc, would break certain army composition requirements). They're not claiming that they're marines, just that they're part of the armylist.
Formosa wrote:I want more rubricai for the simple reason that these units should already be in the book, if they can hand wave sekmets into being rubrics, then why can't we have rubrics in other slots, im yet to see a valid fluff reason for why certain units cannot exist, as you say Tsons only had bolters until recently and suddenly they got some heresy era kit, as soon as that was introduced it created this very issue, if it had stayed just bolters I would be agreeing with you, but now I'm like "if they have these weapons, why are they not useing them as they have been trained to?" It made no sense, I do agree that it seems to be a legacy "spikey marine" issue, but as I said earlier in the thread, this book was a great opportunity to add more character to the Tsons, bulk out the Rubrics a bit, instead we have gotten a major focus on tzaangors, which is wrong for a thousand sons codex.
4: I can only imagine it's because rubricae aren't marines anymore, they're animated suits of armour? ie anything more complicated than a bolter, slugthrower (the not!Assault cannon) or a flamer is beyond them to operate reliably. As for adding character, well, you and I will have to agree to disagree on that one since giving them the equivalent of Rubricae Havoks or similar would feel like it takes away a lot of their character. I think that the Disc riding Tzaangors are a good compromise to give a TS army some mobile power without simply making them a copy-paste job of regular CSM. In my book, differentiating the Sons by making them utilise different units compared to all the other, non-dust legions gives them more character, not less. They're still a marine army, they've still got bolter plebs and marine vehicles, but they've got their own distinct flavour. Even with all this, you still don't have to take non-marine units, you still have options in fielding rubrics with sorc and vehicle support if you want.
SilverAlien wrote:
nintura wrote: Well, Thursday or Friday, warhammer TV is going to have Custodes vs Thousand Sons with some preview of the codex. I predict a slaughter that will make Thousand Sons new codex look like an embarrassment.
Considering these battle reports are always showcases, it isn't hard to make educated guesses based on what they want to show off. For example:
1. The anti horde options of custodes will be on full display versus the normal tzaangors and cultists
2. The new elite gors and shamans will be shown off and compared favorable to the normal gors in this context, to show that non horde options are good as well.
3. Expect them to make a point of how the custodes can resist mortal wounds from psychic powers.
4. Probably going to get the vortex beast showing off a little, that seems minor enough to spoil this far ahead.
5. The end will be a close win by custodes facilitated by the fact they have objective secured on all infantry and bikes.
Do I need to remind you of the Woofs Vs Sons game where they were showing off the return of Magnus? Even looking at the lists, the Sons were going to get a raping even if they weren't horrendously misplayed from the start. What they want probably doesn't match with their competance to get said result.
1: I havent been complaining, if thats how you have interpreted it, thats your mistake.
2: So you agree that they were effectviely squatted until recently, cool, and now they have been brought back cool.
3: again your examples completely miss the point, not the mention are completely wrong, a grot IS and orkoid, a scout IS a space marine, a Tzaangor is literally not a Thousand son, a pox walkers IS LITERALLY not a Death Guard, what is so hard for you to grasp with this, adding the keyword doesnt suddenly make them Rubrics, it doesnt suddenly make the Space Marines, so when I have repeatedly asked for more Thousand sons, the stupid people on here have said "derp, Tzaangors are Thousand sons Derp derp", and I have said repeatedly they are not, because they are not, they are an Aux force that work with the Thousand sons, NOT THOUSAND SONS, just emphasising that point, like guard can work with space marines, but that doesnt make them ultramarines or space marines.....
4: if what you say is true they would not be able to fight in CC, shoot moving targets (which requires a hell of a lot more dexterity than people are giving them credit for) etc. so no, I stand by that fact that there is no credible fluff reason for lack of weapons options, while there is an option of just taking marines, that leaves the book extremely empty, the gors should have been added in addition to a slight expansion of the marine part of the book, not instead of it, either way I will get what I want from this book, I will create my own Tsons units for non matched play and expand the list myself, it will be very easy, which is yet another reason GW should have done it, because it was very easy to do.
Using miniatures that had already invested into to give them new units rather than investing in new miniatures.
The reason GW does or does not do anything related to new minis is not because "writing the rules would be sooooo hardddddd" its' because new rules require (now) new miniatures, and new miniatures are a significant investment/risk...unless you have already released and started to pay off the molds by releasing them for another game. This kind of a release is essentially a freebie whenever they can do it.
if you really think GW is too stoopid to write rules for a psychic dreadnought I'd point you at the 55,628,456 different variant dreadnoughts with rules available in the game and through forgeworld.
No, it really would not be any harder than using the gors/mutalit.
You can EASILY make 3-4 new TS rubric/sorcerer units using only existing kits, either in GW kitbashing (IE dreadknight grandmaster), or using FW kits that got no 40k rules (like THE GODAMN PSYKER DREADNAUT!)
You can EASILY make 3-4 new TS rubric/sorcerer units using only existing kits.
Exactly this...
They could scrap the idea of Exalted Sorcerers as an HQ unit entirely and make a Sorcerer Coven Brotherhood of Psyker type units instead. The kit has tons of bits that could be used to make many more models than just the 3 in the box. They could have then made a Sorcerer Coven of the Pavoni/Corvidae/Pyrae/Raporta and given each of these units access to a unique spell related to the cult they were in. A flamer template here, a ordnance stormcloud there, a buff circle etc.
Fluff reasoning is easy. If we can assume that there is a such thing as an Aspiring Sorcerer in the Thousand Sons, these brotherhood units could represent new recruits and such. Thousand Sons raid blackships and steal all the psykers that are reasonably stable, forcibly implant their geneseed into them and the few that survive are trained through these sorcerer covens until they are strong enough to be a sorcerer lord of their own etc.
Using miniatures that had already invested into to give them new units rather than investing in new miniatures.
The reason GW does or does not do anything related to new minis is not because "writing the rules would be sooooo hardddddd" its' because new rules require (now) new miniatures, and new miniatures are a significant investment/risk...unless you have already released and started to pay off the molds by releasing them for another game. This kind of a release is essentially a freebie whenever they can do it.
if you really think GW is too stoopid to write rules for a psychic dreadnought I'd point you at the 55,628,456 different variant dreadnoughts with rules available in the game and through forgeworld.
No your right, it is easier to invest in miniatures they already have, we already have rubrics, we dont NEED new models for the heavy weapon of special weapon teams, they already exist, we would just need to buy more boxes like we always have, like with old devastators and wanting 4 lascannon (think the new ones dont even have that), so it would be a net gain for them, just give us the options and we can do the rest and they make money, if a 3rd party comes in offering weapons .... oh wait, they already do..... so GW isnt actually gaining anything by not making the unit option, nor are they in fact losing anything.
And the dread example isnt a good one to be honest, since the models already exist and just need porting over from 30k, which I hope they do, then bam! we have a psy dread that fits nicely into the Tsons and I would be happier, the hellbrute doesnt really fit aesthetically to me (other people may think differently) with Tsons, same with the other FW dread variants save the Big Deamon one (forget its name), that seems to fit.
BoomWolf wrote: No, it really would not be any harder than using the gors/mutalit.
You can EASILY make 3-4 new TS rubric/sorcerer units using only existing kits, either in GW kitbashing (IE dreadknight grandmaster), or using FW kits that got no 40k rules (like THE GODAMN PSYKER DREADNAUT!)
Yeah because GW has done so much to advance the idea of kitbashing as a standard process to creating units in 8th - they've never been more unconcerned with having players only buying and making new units with existing, official GW kits!
Also, forgeworld in 8th is very much a separate entity, and also in many ways essentially a dumpster fire. If they make 40k rules for special dreadnought #65,123 then they get to it when they get to it The rules for the Hellforged Contemptor already exist, and are pretty solid, it's what I currently use my Osiron as. Psychicness notwithstanding, it's a dreadnought with the right weapons and an invulnerable save, how different would a Rubric Contemptor be ruleswise? a 4++ instead of a 5++?
All I can say I guess is picking up this army has done nothing but amaze me with how quickly the CSM community has gotten spoilt with the recent GW attention. If you handed Ork players half the number of unit options, wargear choices and forgeworld options that normal or chaos marines have already got, they'd be bloody ecstatic. Two codexes in as many years with brand new kits for all the existing units, a new super-character, special sorcerors, and a special variant cultist-type with its own special buffing characters and specialist units and we've got 14 pages of whining about how there's not more. Two years ago when I started this army it was with wonky resin upgrade packs I had to buy alongside regular CSM kits.
BoomWolf wrote: No, it really would not be any harder than using the gors/mutalit.
You can EASILY make 3-4 new TS rubric/sorcerer units using only existing kits, either in GW kitbashing (IE dreadknight grandmaster), or using FW kits that got no 40k rules (like THE GODAMN PSYKER DREADNAUT!)
Yeah because GW has done so much to advance the idea of kitbashing as a standard process to creating units in 8th - they've never been more unconcerned with having players only buying and making new units with existing, official GW kits!
Also, forgeworld in 8th is very much a separate entity, and also in many ways essentially a dumpster fire. If they make 40k rules for special dreadnought #65,123 then they get to it when they get to it The rules for the Hellforged Contemptor already exist, and are pretty solid, it's what I currently use my Osiron as. Psychicness notwithstanding, it's a dreadnought with the right weapons and an invulnerable save, how different would a Rubric Contemptor be ruleswise? a 4++ instead of a 5++?
All I can say I guess is picking up this army has done nothing but amaze me with how quickly the CSM community has gotten spoilt with the recent GW attention. If you handed Ork players half the number of unit options, wargear choices and forgeworld options that normal or chaos marines have already got, they'd be bloody ecstatic. Two codexes in as many years with brand new kits for all the existing units, a new super-character, special sorcerors, and a special variant cultist-type with its own special buffing characters and specialist units and we've got 14 pages of whining about how there's not more. Two years ago when I started this army it was with wonky resin upgrade packs I had to buy alongside regular CSM kits.
Yep, the "no model, no rules" policy is soooooo popular right?
The hellforged contemptor isnt a psyker, so not sure where you are going with that example, so yes there would be a clear difference.
your last comment is not really worth the number of letter you have put into it, you confuse whining with asking questions and discussing it, you equate wanting new datasheets with new models, which is not what we have been saying, and saying that ork players would be happy if they had the support that chaos is getting recently has no bearing at all, in fact you come across as whining, which i dont think is your intention at all.
I have been playing Tsons since 3rd, ah back when chaos space marines could represent so much more, with so much less, I would have loved to have the model option we have now, with the cusomisation and "feel" of the 3.5 codex, shame GW doenst make codexs like that anymore.
The psyker dreadnought is happening in time. Give it some time. I have it on good faith, its going to be a thing, but FW need to get around to it.
Heres the thing; What if Rubrics as troops are fantastic? what if with the legion tactic, the strategems, spell support...they become murderous and very effective?
Not to mention a more-then-likely points drop.... I think Rubrics will be a constant staple in our list, and once the books out we will see just how many is reasonable. I use 20-25 or so per game right now, If the new book makes them better I can see 30 being or more being a regular staple in 2000 points, especially with a points drop.
Lets have just a little bit of reasonable discourse here; If this ends up being the case (id say everything I said is totally reasonable and we can expect basically all of it to be true in some fashion) why does anyone else care about new tzaangors? In the Index I often wouldnt use tzaangors in a list, and before codexs were the norm they did fine.
Ahriman21 wrote: The psyker dreadnought is happening in time. Give it some time. I have it on good faith, its going to be a thing, but FW need to get around to it.
Heres the thing; What if Rubrics as troops are fantastic? what if with the legion tactic, the strategems, spell support...they become murderous and very effective?
Not to mention a more-then-likely points drop.... I think Rubrics will be a constant staple in our list, and once the books out we will see just how many is reasonable. I use 20-25 or so per game right now, If the new book makes them better I can see 30 being or more being a regular staple in 2000 points, especially with a points drop.
Lets have just a little bit of reasonable discourse here; If this ends up being the case (id say everything I said is totally reasonable and we can expect basically all of it to be true in some fashion) why does anyone else care about new tzaangors? In the Index I often wouldnt use tzaangors in a list, and before codexs were the norm they did fine.
Once we have our dex we will be a good army.
Well said, the only reason I keep coming back to this is because some keep dismissing that all we want is more options, we won't get them for a long time if at all, but there is nothing wrong with wanting more units/options.
As soon as the codex drops I plan on buying the AOS tzaangors box set as I can use them for both (won't be painting them that horrible blue though), they are some really nice models and it's good that they are getting there own shared codex, I am wondering if they will get any relics too, I would love a bow relic that does silly things, maybe a lascannon stat line, magic arrows or somthing
Skerr wrote: Is it confirmed that TS will be using their new dex?
Never mind just read the post and they are!! Count me excited!!
While a script is not hard to believe do you not think they will just play and let the chips fall where they may? Or is just an episode of Monday night RAW to show off the new franchise and have 1000 sons do the job? I would hope that they just play without a predetermined outcome.
They play a real game. When Magnus debuted he got blown to bits.
Ahriman21 wrote: The psyker dreadnought is happening in time. Give it some time. I have it on good faith, its going to be a thing, but FW need to get around to it.
Heres the thing; What if Rubrics as troops are fantastic? what if with the legion tactic, the strategems, spell support...they become murderous and very effective?
Not to mention a more-then-likely points drop.... I think Rubrics will be a constant staple in our list, and once the books out we will see just how many is reasonable. I use 20-25 or so per game right now, If the new book makes them better I can see 30 being or more being a regular staple in 2000 points, especially with a points drop.
Lets have just a little bit of reasonable discourse here; If this ends up being the case (id say everything I said is totally reasonable and we can expect basically all of it to be true in some fashion) why does anyone else care about new tzaangors? In the Index I often wouldnt use tzaangors in a list, and before codexs were the norm they did fine.
Once we have our dex we will be a good army.
And how fun is 30 Rubrics? You get your bolters and your flamers. You get the same two options every game, every squad. I got bored doing that so I started expanding. Melee based Helbrute. Daemon Prince. Hellturkey. Tzaangors. Finally, I looked at my army and realized, I'm no longer playing a Thousand Sons army. I'm playing a Chaos Space marines army with a squad of Rubrics who didn't do much outside of hold an objective.
Interesting (if odd) perspective, you and I look at things very differently in that regard.
I think that having the ability to alter army list and list type is a huge part of variety.
bolters and flamers are fine, soul reaper cannons are fantastic. and the guns that rubrics carry are quality shooting.
Having the ability to add variety to the 1k sons list type doesnt somehow subtract from the list.. I often find that with spell support, daemon support, daemon engine support, and the ability to take goats if i wanted there was enough variety for the indexs purposes having all engines/tanks from the standard chaos list + most of the great forgeworld units.
Thats enough for the index, the new stuff being added gives us a wide variety of list type (lets assume that at least ONE of the Two types of goats on discs we are getting is good at its job on the table.
And how fun is 30 Rubrics? You get your bolters and your flamers. You get the same two options every game, every squad. I got bored doing that so I started expanding. Melee based Helbrute. Daemon Prince. Hellturkey. Tzaangors. Finally, I looked at my army and realized, I'm no longer playing a Thousand Sons army. I'm playing a Chaos Space marines army with a squad of Rubrics who didn't do much outside of hold an objective.
Pretty damn fun if you ask me. I brought down a gorkanaut with bolters, a DP aura, and VotLW (as "Black Legion").
And then I have two squads of 5 in a rhino and soulreapers to hop out and burn someone off an objective.
I've also done a squad with 4 flamers in a rhino and ahriman riding on a disc behind them, hop out, move, warptime, and toast.
I'm just hoping we get some morale protection in the book to make big squads more feasible.
Unless t sons get some serious love in the new Dex, I'm talking either access to a powers, or ignore the smite rule that's probably going to be official, they are really only good as a supporting detatchment. I started off trying to make them as an army and I just can't do it.
They are great and cutting down the chaff of MEQ, but other then that, super meh and over cost. I have shifted bo to daemons with T some support.
I'm agreeing that there's not currently a way for Tsons to represent a psychic dreadnought. I consider my Osiron to be a Rubric Contemptor, which would not be a psyker.
Whether the "no model no rules" policy is popular or not, it's still a policy. getting "14 pages" level disappointed over something not happening that would have been a MASSIVE 180 in GWs current rules design is pretty much setting oneself up for disappointment.
I could say right now "if the ork codex doesn't get Looted Wagon rules giving me official license to convert and use vehicles from every faction then I will declare my Big Mek focused speed freeks army to be dead!" and if I did so I'd be essentially guaranteeing that I will be disappointed. If you expected rules for Rubric Devastators, Rubric Bikers, Sorceror centurions, etc, knowing how GW has been putting out these codexes and having seen the DG release, I don't know what to tell you other than I'm sorry and that you shoudn't set yourself up for disappointment.
the_scotsman wrote: I'm agreeing that there's not currently a way for Tsons to represent a psychic dreadnought. I consider my Osiron to be a Rubric Contemptor, which would not be a psyker.
Whether the "no model no rules" policy is popular or not, it's still a policy. getting "14 pages" level disappointed over something not happening that would have been a MASSIVE 180 in GWs current rules design is pretty much setting oneself up for disappointment.
I could say right now "if the ork codex doesn't get Looted Wagon rules giving me official license to convert and use vehicles from every faction then I will declare my Big Mek focused speed freeks army to be dead!" and if I did so I'd be essentially guaranteeing that I will be disappointed. If you expected rules for Rubric Devastators, Rubric Bikers, Sorceror centurions, etc, knowing how GW has been putting out these codexes and having seen the DG release, I don't know what to tell you other than I'm sorry and that you shoudn't set yourself up for disappointment.
We didn't expect the rules, we haven't even demanded them or anything, we WANT the rules, so the disappointment doesn't come from a lack of these units, it comes from a wasted opportunity to expand upon these units, in the same manner as other books in this edition and others have wasted opertunities to fix underlying issues with the codex or expand on an underrepresented faction, orks are a very good example of that, same with chaos cults and until recently, genestealer cults, there is so much more they could do, but that policy has been holding them back for far too long, it's a real shame our community is so fractured as otherwise we could show them we don't approve in a more meaningful way.
the_scotsman wrote: I'm agreeing that there's not currently a way for Tsons to represent a psychic dreadnought. I consider my Osiron to be a Rubric Contemptor, which would not be a psyker.
Whether the "no model no rules" policy is popular or not, it's still a policy. getting "14 pages" level disappointed over something not happening that would have been a MASSIVE 180 in GWs current rules design is pretty much setting oneself up for disappointment.
I could say right now "if the ork codex doesn't get Looted Wagon rules giving me official license to convert and use vehicles from every faction then I will declare my Big Mek focused speed freeks army to be dead!" and if I did so I'd be essentially guaranteeing that I will be disappointed. If you expected rules for Rubric Devastators, Rubric Bikers, Sorceror centurions, etc, knowing how GW has been putting out these codexes and having seen the DG release, I don't know what to tell you other than I'm sorry and that you shoudn't set yourself up for disappointment.
I don't think anyone was expecting Jump Pack dudes for Sons or Guard outside maybe Warp Talons because Daemons and all that, but there does need to be consistency somewhere. Why are Chaos Lords only T4 and have no Disgustingly Resilient? I can bet we won't get a Lord equivalent with the Dust rule either. Because reasons.
the_scotsman wrote: I'm agreeing that there's not currently a way for Tsons to represent a psychic dreadnought. I consider my Osiron to be a Rubric Contemptor, which would not be a psyker.
Whether the "no model no rules" policy is popular or not, it's still a policy. getting "14 pages" level disappointed over something not happening that would have been a MASSIVE 180 in GWs current rules design is pretty much setting oneself up for disappointment.
I could say right now "if the ork codex doesn't get Looted Wagon rules giving me official license to convert and use vehicles from every faction then I will declare my Big Mek focused speed freeks army to be dead!" and if I did so I'd be essentially guaranteeing that I will be disappointed. If you expected rules for Rubric Devastators, Rubric Bikers, Sorceror centurions, etc, knowing how GW has been putting out these codexes and having seen the DG release, I don't know what to tell you other than I'm sorry and that you shoudn't set yourself up for disappointment.
I don't think anyone was expecting Jump Pack dudes for Sons or Guard outside maybe Warp Talons because Daemons and all that, but there does need to be consistency somewhere. Why are Chaos Lords only T4 and have no Disgustingly Resilient? I can bet we won't get a Lord equivalent with the Dust rule either. Because reasons.
Wouldn't be surprised as index tsons can't take a Lord at all, and none of the HQs have the Dust rule...because theyre not made of dust.
the_scotsman wrote: I'm agreeing that there's not currently a way for Tsons to represent a psychic dreadnought. I consider my Osiron to be a Rubric Contemptor, which would not be a psyker.
Whether the "no model no rules" policy is popular or not, it's still a policy. getting "14 pages" level disappointed over something not happening that would have been a MASSIVE 180 in GWs current rules design is pretty much setting oneself up for disappointment.
I could say right now "if the ork codex doesn't get Looted Wagon rules giving me official license to convert and use vehicles from every faction then I will declare my Big Mek focused speed freeks army to be dead!" and if I did so I'd be essentially guaranteeing that I will be disappointed. If you expected rules for Rubric Devastators, Rubric Bikers, Sorceror centurions, etc, knowing how GW has been putting out these codexes and having seen the DG release, I don't know what to tell you other than I'm sorry and that you shoudn't set yourself up for disappointment.
I don't think anyone was expecting Jump Pack dudes for Sons or Guard outside maybe Warp Talons because Daemons and all that, but there does need to be consistency somewhere. Why are Chaos Lords only T4 and have no Disgustingly Resilient? I can bet we won't get a Lord equivalent with the Dust rule either. Because reasons.
Wouldn't be surprised as index tsons can't take a Lord at all, and none of the HQs have the Dust rule...because theyre not made of dust.
I might expect a Lord to though instead of the Sorcerer was more the point I was making.
I've tried reading some of this thread, but I'll admit the arguing from both sides made it difficult to grasp, but can someone clear something up for me? There's a lot of talk about Gors, are Thousand Sons bringing Beastmen back to 40k? Because that'd be cool.
Otherwise, Tzaangors have been in Thousand Sons already, and with GW doing the smart cross-game daemons thing, it only makes sense that the other AOS units would get some rules. Hell, I'd like to see them bring units from other armies in AOS into 40k! Gimme some Duardin assault units for Tau or Guard, some feral Orks and a sprue of space guns added to a Stormcast box would have saved them tons on developing the Custodes army!
Yup. a lord is in the no-go territory, and the exalted sorcerer covers his position being a rather good melee in addition to psyker duties.
Overly expensive at the moment, but point costs are not a consideration pre-codex, they are highly subject to change.
That specific niche is covered. even if the aura is rather lame.
They also cover the reators of old. why they all forgot their termi/artificer armor is silly, but they can easily be considered the same guys.
Having a proper orison is easy for GW, so easy.
Contemptors has rules
Psyker "regular" dread has rules (blood angels)
Merging the two into one new TS slate to use orison models takes minutes of work, it generates sales that otherwise would not happen (few non HH players would buy an orison, compared to if it had a 40k slate)
"Havoc rubrics" is literally using the regular rubric models, its just up to the player to acquire more cannons (did you know FW sells rotor cannons who are basically the soulreaper cannon "pre warp"? easy monies.)
Don't know who suggested rubric bikers. havn't seen anyone put that up as anything but a counterpoint. what some people HAVE brought up, is disk rubrics-who actually would require minimal work, so lets put them aside.
The point is, we are disappointed.
GW had an opportunity to expand the army (in a way that generates new sells) without even making any kits.
They chose to actually do that, but they chose to do it with ports from sigmar, rather than from HH or simple "get your own bits plebs"
And it was a massive fail. because MOST thousand sons players don't care for the sigmar ports, nor like them. we might use them out of necessity, but its not what we wanted, and it defiantly will not generate equal sales to what could have been.
Saying we got "a new super-character, special sorcerors" isn't actually point out much.
Magnus is a named LoW. not everyone want to base their army on a spesific named LoW. not everyone enjoys to field massive models-but we are pushed towards it because we don't have much else. especially given that he actually works best with tzeentch daemons rather than actual thousand sons.
Special sorcerers are a joke. they come in kits of 3, but as it stands there is little reason to ever field one, let alone three-they trry doing everything and end up doing nothing valuable for how much they cost.
The codex itself would have to be freaking amazing to undo the massive letdown that the announcement created.
Honestly, I think I'd be less let down if they didn't port the sigmar units at all and just kept to current rooster. than at least I could HOPE for expansion of the rubric line.
craggy wrote: I've tried reading some of this thread, but I'll admit the arguing from both sides made it difficult to grasp, but can someone clear something up for me? There's a lot of talk about Gors, are Thousand Sons bringing Beastmen back to 40k? Because that'd be cool.
Otherwise, Tzaangors have been in Thousand Sons already, and with GW doing the smart cross-game daemons thing, it only makes sense that the other AOS units would get some rules. Hell, I'd like to see them bring units from other armies in AOS into 40k! Gimme some Duardin assault units for Tau or Guard, some feral Orks and a sprue of space guns added to a Stormcast box would have saved them tons on developing the Custodes army!
Yes, the Tzaangor units from AoS are coming to 40k for Thousand Sons.
The issue players have isn't that they're getting Tzaangor units, it's that the Thousand Sons codex has Sorcerers, Exalted Sorcerers, Scarab Occult, and Rubrics as the Thousand Sons portion of the book. It will soon have as many Tzaangor units in the book. It will likely have as many CSM units in the book. Players are concerned that lists will be made up primarily of non-Thousand Sons units in both total points and model count in a Thousand Sons army. At what point does it become Thousand Sons in name only? We've already seen Magnus and 4 demon prince lists trying to pretend they're Thousand Sons. Next will be all Gor lists pretending they're Thousand Sons. Players want Thousand Sons in their Thousand Sons lists.
craggy wrote: I've tried reading some of this thread, but I'll admit the arguing from both sides made it difficult to grasp, but can someone clear something up for me? There's a lot of talk about Gors, are Thousand Sons bringing Beastmen back to 40k? Because that'd be cool.
Otherwise, Tzaangors have been in Thousand Sons already, and with GW doing the smart cross-game daemons thing, it only makes sense that the other AOS units would get some rules. Hell, I'd like to see them bring units from other armies in AOS into 40k! Gimme some Duardin assault units for Tau or Guard, some feral Orks and a sprue of space guns added to a Stormcast box would have saved them tons on developing the Custodes army!
Yes, the Tzaangor units from AoS are coming to 40k for Thousand Sons.
The issue players have isn't that they're getting Tzaangor units, it's that the Thousand Sons codex has Sorcerers, Exalted Sorcerers, Scarab Occult, and Rubrics as the Thousand Sons portion of the book. It will soon have as many Tzaangor units in the book. It will likely have as many CSM units in the book. Players are concerned that lists will be made up primarily of non-Thousand Sons units in both total points and model count in a Thousand Sons army. At what point does it become Thousand Sons in name only? We've already seen Magnus and 4 demon prince lists trying to pretend they're Thousand Sons. Next will be all Gor lists pretending they're Thousand Sons. Players want Thousand Sons in their Thousand Sons lists.
That's all there really is to it.
So, I'm honestly curious, would you classify the Blood Angels codex as having like 6 Blood Angels units and then 20something "Space Marines" units?
I don't know about yours, but my rhinos are manned by Thousand Sons and covered in Thousand Sons iconography, as is my predator, my Contemptor is an obviously Thousand Sons Osiron, and all my sorcerors daemon princes and jump sorcerors are all thousand sons units as well. I don't field 2-3 units of rubrics and then leave the rest of my army gray in protest because they don't have extra super-special rules for being part of my chosen subfaction.
To be honest I think t sons are gonna synergize better with daemons, especially if cultists don't have the t sons key word for Magnus to buff them. Might as well take horrors for better save and more damage potential.
Having a proper orison is easy for GW, so easy.
Contemptors has rules
Psyker "regular" dread has rules (blood angels)
Merging the two into one new TS slate to use orison models takes minutes of work, it generates sales that otherwise would not happen (few non HH players would buy an orison, compared to if it had a 40k slate)
Sure. But this would be FW's job as it is their model, and FW hates selling their models. There are vast amounts of HH models that should and could have 40K rules, but they don't.
craggy wrote: I've tried reading some of this thread, but I'll admit the arguing from both sides made it difficult to grasp, but can someone clear something up for me? There's a lot of talk about Gors, are Thousand Sons bringing Beastmen back to 40k? Because that'd be cool.
Otherwise, Tzaangors have been in Thousand Sons already, and with GW doing the smart cross-game daemons thing, it only makes sense that the other AOS units would get some rules. Hell, I'd like to see them bring units from other armies in AOS into 40k! Gimme some Duardin assault units for Tau or Guard, some feral Orks and a sprue of space guns added to a Stormcast box would have saved them tons on developing the Custodes army!
Yes, the Tzaangor units from AoS are coming to 40k for Thousand Sons.
The issue players have isn't that they're getting Tzaangor units, it's that the Thousand Sons codex has Sorcerers, Exalted Sorcerers, Scarab Occult, and Rubrics as the Thousand Sons portion of the book. It will soon have as many Tzaangor units in the book. It will likely have as many CSM units in the book. Players are concerned that lists will be made up primarily of non-Thousand Sons units in both total points and model count in a Thousand Sons army. At what point does it become Thousand Sons in name only? We've already seen Magnus and 4 demon prince lists trying to pretend they're Thousand Sons. Next will be all Gor lists pretending they're Thousand Sons. Players want Thousand Sons in their Thousand Sons lists.
That's all there really is to it.
So, I'm honestly curious, would you classify the Blood Angels codex as having like 6 Blood Angels units and then 20something "Space Marines" units?
I don't know about yours, but my rhinos are manned by Thousand Sons and covered in Thousand Sons iconography, as is my predator, my Contemptor is an obviously Thousand Sons Osiron, and all my sorcerors daemon princes and jump sorcerors are all thousand sons units as well. I don't field 2-3 units of rubrics and then leave the rest of my army gray in protest because they don't have extra super-special rules for being part of my chosen subfaction.
Blood angels SPACE MARINES, are SPACE MARINES, so its not the same at all and is a false equivalence.
Your rhinos are crewed by who? we dont know, I would like to know though as its something I have always wondered about with Tsons, either way its a generic unit, not Tsons per say but a Legion unit, same as Space marines and Rhinos, same with predator, the Contemptor and Osiron is not the same, you can claim its so but your wrong, they are very different beasts, one being a psyker with a force weapon, the other being a Contemptor, the Deamon princes are the first unit you have mentioned that could be considered Tsons, but being Deamon princes I would say they are more Tzeench than Tsons, The Sorcerors on dics are Tsons for sure.
However that all being said I have no issue with what you are saying, if you want to use the Osiran to count as a Contemptor, thats fine, its not an Osiron though, the Tsons vehicles are something I would like the new codex to explain, because if its Rubrics driving them, thats even more proof that the "they lack the ability to use other complex weapons" is nonsense, and if they are not, who are the drivers, how are they recruited, I like that kind of fluff, I would also like some examples and a little backstory for Tsons DP, personally I would be happy if they were removed entirely or made 0-1 for all factions, its far to common to see 2/3 these days, they just seem like any other monster and they used to be unique killing machines, they have lost a lot of character over the years.
EnTyme wrote: Wait, wasn't the goalpost over here a second ago?
Explain where the goalpost has shifted, I have been very consistent throughout.
Well, my headcanon (equally valid as yours) is that the vindicators, assault marines, tactical marines, dreadnoughts, predators and all other units not specifically unique to blood angels are "generic units" and not blood angels at all.
Dammit, if I wanted to play generic space marines I would have bought codex: Space marines! Why are blood angels limited only to death company, sanguinary guard, furioso dreads, librarian dreads, death company dreads and a few named characters who don't count because, hello, not EVERYONE wants to structure their blood angels army around one specific named dude! Who are these rhino drivers and land raider drivers and assault marines who don't even have "blood angels" in their name and what are they doing in the army? I'd like the fluff to explain that!
lets see, what do you get when you google "thousand sons rhino"?
Using miniatures that had already invested into to give them new units rather than investing in new miniatures.
The reason GW does or does not do anything related to new minis is not because "writing the rules would be sooooo hardddddd" its' because new rules require (now) new miniatures, and new miniatures are a significant investment/risk...unless you have already released and started to pay off the molds by releasing them for another game. This kind of a release is essentially a freebie whenever they can do it.
if you really think GW is too stoopid to write rules for a psychic dreadnought I'd point you at the 55,628,456 different variant dreadnoughts with rules available in the game and through forgeworld.
No your right, it is easier to invest in miniatures they already have, we already have rubrics, we dont NEED new models for the heavy weapon of special weapon teams, they already exist, we would just need to buy more boxes like we always have, like with old devastators and wanting 4 lascannon (think the new ones dont even have that), so it would be a net gain for them, just give us the options and we can do the rest and they make money, if a 3rd party comes in offering weapons .... oh wait, they already do..... so GW isnt actually gaining anything by not making the unit option, nor are they in fact losing anything.
And the dread example isnt a good one to be honest, since the models already exist and just need porting over from 30k, which I hope they do, then bam! we have a psy dread that fits nicely into the Tsons and I would be happier, the hellbrute doesnt really fit aesthetically to me (other people may think differently) with Tsons, same with the other FW dread variants save the Big Deamon one (forget its name), that seems to fit.
You simply have to get over it my friend. No amount of salt will get GW to drop the NMNR ideology they have. Nothing. You are simply wasting effort.
EnTyme wrote: Wait, wasn't the goalpost over here a second ago?
Explain where the goalpost has shifted, I have been very consistent throughout.
Well, my headcanon (equally valid as yours) is that the vindicators, assault marines, tactical marines, dreadnoughts, predators and all other units not specifically unique to blood angels are "generic units" and not blood angels at all.
Dammit, if I wanted to play generic space marines I would have bought codex: Space marines! Why are blood angels limited only to death company, sanguinary guard, furioso dreads, librarian dreads, death company dreads and a few named characters who don't count because, hello, not EVERYONE wants to structure their blood angels army around one specific named dude! Who are these rhino drivers and land raider drivers and assault marines who don't even have "blood angels" in their name and what are they doing in the army? I'd like the fluff to explain that!
lets see, what do you get when you google "thousand sons rhino"?
Oh look at that, it's a rubric in the gunner's seat there, I wonder how they managed that highly complex conversion.
Wow what nonsense are you talking?
Blood angels didnt turn there entire legion into rubrics, context matters here, so if you are going down the hyperbole route at least pick a good one
So yes its a valid question to ask where are all the drivers coming from, its also equally as valid to point out that all the vehicles etc. are not unique to Tsons and not considered when talking about Tsons units, now back in the day when these vehicles could take legion specific upgrades, yeah I would look at them and say "thats an emperors children Rhino, it has sonic blasters instead of bolters and that siren upgrade thingy", these days a Word bearers Rhino is no different than a world eaters one, the only difference with Tsons is that all the crews would have been turned into Rubrics, so I wonder who drives the vehicles and would like a little blurb to explain it, now IF the Osiron dread turns up and is a psyker dread, or they gave the contemptor all is dust, I would look at it differently.
As for moving goal posts, its not moving goal posts to wonder about something completely different from the conversion I was having, who pilots the vehicles doesnt really impact on the "I would like more types of Rubrics" conversation.
Using miniatures that had already invested into to give them new units rather than investing in new miniatures.
The reason GW does or does not do anything related to new minis is not because "writing the rules would be sooooo hardddddd" its' because new rules require (now) new miniatures, and new miniatures are a significant investment/risk...unless you have already released and started to pay off the molds by releasing them for another game. This kind of a release is essentially a freebie whenever they can do it.
if you really think GW is too stoopid to write rules for a psychic dreadnought I'd point you at the 55,628,456 different variant dreadnoughts with rules available in the game and through forgeworld.
No your right, it is easier to invest in miniatures they already have, we already have rubrics, we dont NEED new models for the heavy weapon of special weapon teams, they already exist, we would just need to buy more boxes like we always have, like with old devastators and wanting 4 lascannon (think the new ones dont even have that), so it would be a net gain for them, just give us the options and we can do the rest and they make money, if a 3rd party comes in offering weapons .... oh wait, they already do..... so GW isnt actually gaining anything by not making the unit option, nor are they in fact losing anything.
And the dread example isnt a good one to be honest, since the models already exist and just need porting over from 30k, which I hope they do, then bam! we have a psy dread that fits nicely into the Tsons and I would be happier, the hellbrute doesnt really fit aesthetically to me (other people may think differently) with Tsons, same with the other FW dread variants save the Big Deamon one (forget its name), that seems to fit.
You simply have to get over it my friend. No amount of salt will get GW to drop the NMNR ideology they have. Nothing. You are simply wasting effort.
Your right, but no I wont get over it, it will directly impact my buying thats all, I would own a Primaris army by now if not for that policy, but the lack of options and customisation, my 2nd favourite part of the hobby (after the fluff), has effectively killed my interest in that army for the time being, I can lament the lack of cohesion in our hobby but there is nothing I can really do to pull people together in enough numbers, plus geeks (us) are notoriously hard to pull together regardless of there particular interest, we are a loud and obnoxious bunch
So yes its a valid question to ask where are all the drivers coming from, its also equally as valid to point out that all the vehicles etc. are not unique to Tsons and not considered when talking about Tsons units, now back in the day when these vehicles could take legion specific upgrades, yeah I would look at them and say "thats an emperors children Rhino, it has sonic blasters instead of bolters and that siren upgrade thingy", these days a Word bearers Rhino is no different than a world eaters one, the only difference with Tsons is that all the crews would have been turned into Rubrics, so I wonder who drives the vehicles and would like a little blurb to explain it, now IF the Osiron dread turns up and is a psyker dread, or they gave the contemptor all is dust, I would look at it differently.
Sure, the driver thing is a valid question, but that the vehicles don't have unique rules is completely moot point, that's how it is for almost all factions. Ultramarine Rhino is no different from Dark Angels Rhino. But claiming that a Dark Angels Rhino is not really a Dark Angels unit would be completely crazy.
So yes its a valid question to ask where are all the drivers coming from, its also equally as valid to point out that all the vehicles etc. are not unique to Tsons and not considered when talking about Tsons units, now back in the day when these vehicles could take legion specific upgrades, yeah I would look at them and say "thats an emperors children Rhino, it has sonic blasters instead of bolters and that siren upgrade thingy", these days a Word bearers Rhino is no different than a world eaters one, the only difference with Tsons is that all the crews would have been turned into Rubrics, so I wonder who drives the vehicles and would like a little blurb to explain it, now IF the Osiron dread turns up and is a psyker dread, or they gave the contemptor all is dust, I would look at it differently.
Sure, the driver thing is a valid question, but that the vehicles don't have unique rules is completely moot point, that's how it is for almost all factions. Ultramarine Rhino is no different from Dark Angels Rhino. But claiming that a Dark Angels Rhino is not really a Dark Angels unit would be completely crazy.
Nah, I am saying its not a unique dark angels unit, so not considered when I talk about dark angels units themselves, Deathwing Knights are a unique dark angels unit, terminators are not, but the Deathwing rule makes them a unique DW unit, so by the same extension if they gave all is dust to a Contemptor, then I would consider it a unique Tsons unit, see what I am saying or am I not explaining it properly?
Nah, I am saying its not a unique dark angels unit, so not considered when I talk about dark angels units themselves, Deathwing Knights are a unique dark angels unit, terminators are not, but the Deathwing rule makes them a unique DW unit, so by the same extension if they gave all is dust to a Contemptor, then I would consider it a unique Tsons unit, see what I am saying or am I not explaining it properly?
Yes you are, but having some shared units is just how it is and it is not weird or a problem. Not every unit needs to be unique. Also, I'm not sure that rublic dread would need 'all is dust'. That rule presumably represents the fact that the rubrics really don't have normal body, and thus are more resilient to smaller injuries that might cripple a living person. But most of the dreadnought is mechanical, so it really doesn't become markedly more resilient whether there is some dust or small lump of flesh inside it. The resilience of the mechanical body is already reflected in the stats. Though dreads will be affected by Legion tactics, so presumably TS dreads will get something extra.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:Again with this Fasle Equivalency stuff.
No one is saying no Tzaangors allowed. We just want more Rubric options then Tzaangors as options. We want the focus to be on Rubrics with Tzaangors filling a couple holes. After this codex drops we are going to have more Tzaangors then Rubrics as options. If no one knew anything about this game and you showed them a TS army they would think the TS units are the support units and the bird men are the real army.
If we were getting another Rubric focused HQ and EITHER a heavy support, or a fast attack Rubric unit, I would be all about this release. I can deal with 50-50. Not getting anything on the Rubric side and getting 3 on the Tzaangor side means I have an Army of Tzaangors supported by Rubrics.
Watch this mutalith is just another kit they already had. Why couldn't they male a Sorc Drednaught? Makes perfect sence. Dying legion that needs to get the most milage out of its members uses tech to extend the existance of the few member it has, right? No lets cram a pleb no-name CSM (which we don't have access to btw) into this metal hunk, whats that put a psyker in there? Na that would be effective amd deady we dont want that.
There's no false equivalency, there's pointing out that your arguments make no sense. There's a large difference between being disappointed that you didn't get the new models that you were hoping for and declaring that the entire faction is ruined forever because you got new, optional units that you like, but didn't get the new models you wanted.
Wanting more Rubric option seems to go completely against the fluff to me, at least until they let Ahriman succeed in his quest. They're a "legion" in name only with such a small handful of living members that the only reason they're still a thing is plot armour. We've had the thing that it's Sorcs and Rubricae only for decades and there's been nothing to change that in the fluff, so yeah, to me, it seems that you're wanting to break the fluff for the sake of new kits. Did the Sons desperately need in-faction anit tank and fast attacks choices? Yes, they were woefully inable to deal with these threats previously (though Traitor Legions did make them playable again, albeit in a very rigid monobuild IMHO).
As for the mix of Sons and not Sons, well, you've got Sorc/Exalted, Rubricae and Scarabs on one side and Tzaangors, Skyfires and the Mutalith on the other, so unless I've missed something, they're at 50/50? And again, really, with the numbers of the Sons, any "army" they field should be mainly fodder since the rubricae are bodyguards and the sorcs aren't to be thrown away. If that fodder comes in the form of Daemons, Tzaangors, Cultist or Traitor Guard should make little difference.
A Sorc dread wouldn't be out of the question, but it also wouldn't be overly consistant with established dreadnaught fluff either. IIRC, the "pilots" go a little loopy after a while which is why the loyalist ones hibernate until they're needed while the spikey ones are chained down and they're more "unleashed" rather than "deployed". Not sure how well a crazy psychic dread would go, and that's before you've even gone into the question of why there'd be any dreads in the first place since they can probably biomancy themselves back together good as new and if they can't (or one of their allies can't/won't, then there's probably not enough left to stuff into a dread either. And then you'd question just how the other schemers would view one of their peers suddenly getting a dreadnaught for a body, and then on top of that, you'd need to question if the whole process would weaken their will enough for the flesh change to take hold and make it all pointless. Again, feels like ignoring fluff for wanting shiny new things. As for normal Dreads, I just assumed that they were either rubric'ed dreads from back in the day or they just grabbed a survivor from a raid and stuffed them into a dread shell and called it a day.
Formosa wrote:3: again your examples completely miss the point, not the mention are completely wrong, a grot IS and orkoid, a scout IS a space marine, a Tzaangor is literally not a Thousand son, a pox walkers IS LITERALLY not a Death Guard, what is so hard for you to grasp with this, adding the keyword doesnt suddenly make them Rubrics, it doesnt suddenly make the Space Marines, so when I have repeatedly asked for more Thousand sons, the stupid people on here have said "derp, Tzaangors are Thousand sons Derp derp", and I have said repeatedly they are not, because they are not, they are an Aux force that work with the Thousand sons, NOT THOUSAND SONS, just emphasising that point, like guard can work with space marines, but that doesnt make them ultramarines or space marines.....
It's hard to grasp that you can't seem to understand that just because it's part of the army, doesn't mean it has to be exactly the same as everything else. What about Kroot or Vespid? Should they not be in the Tau army because they're not Tau? Keywords are just a rules thing, they're not the be-all-end-all defining trait of a model. It's something that allows them to be taken in a sons army while allowing various effects to still work. If they'd left it out, people would be screaming bloody murder that the new unit could make use of the various buffs the rest of the army could. Would it be better if they had the Tzaangor Keyword instead of Heretic Astartes and then they went through and modified every instance that says you can only cast powers/uses abilities/utilise stratagems on Heretic Astartes units to add (or Tzaangor Keyword units if you're using Thousand SOns powers/abilities/stratagems)? Would it really make a difference?
Formosa wrote:4: if what you say is true they would not be able to fight in CC, shoot moving targets (which requires a hell of a lot more dexterity than people are giving them credit for) etc. so no, I stand by that fact that there is no credible fluff reason for lack of weapons options, while there is an option of just taking marines, that leaves the book extremely empty, the gors should have been added in addition to a slight expansion of the marine part of the book, not instead of it, either way I will get what I want from this book, I will create my own Tsons units for non matched play and expand the list myself, it will be very easy, which is yet another reason GW should have done it, because it was very easy to do.
I don't know about you, but my Rubricae never could fight in melee or shoot anything on TT, so that seems like good story/gameplay continuity. I struggle to think of a mechanical reason why you couldn't give 'em any old weapon you wanted within reason, but at the end of the day, they're adhereing to the mindless-golem-servant-to-wizard-master trope with the usual 40k twist to it, but that's the way it's been written and they've chosen to stick with it rather than retcon it, for good (I think it gives them a more distinct feel compared to the copy-paste of the other spikey boyz) or ill (you clearly want havok equivalents).
If you have a group that will allow you to use homebrew, great, I hope you find a good balance and have many enjoyable games.
Formosa wrote:No your right, it is easier to invest in miniatures they already have, we already have rubrics, we dont NEED new models for the heavy weapon of special weapon teams, they already exist, we would just need to buy more boxes like we always have, like with old devastators and wanting 4 lascannon (think the new ones dont even have that), so it would be a net gain for them, just give us the options and we can do the rest and they make money, if a 3rd party comes in offering weapons .... oh wait, they already do..... so GW isnt actually gaining anything by not making the unit option, nor are they in fact losing anything.
And the dread example isnt a good one to be honest, since the models already exist and just need porting over from 30k, which I hope they do, then bam! we have a psy dread that fits nicely into the Tsons and I would be happier, the hellbrute doesnt really fit aesthetically to me (other people may think differently) with Tsons, same with the other FW dread variants save the Big Deamon one (forget its name), that seems to fit.
IIRC, the new Dev kit has 2 of each heavy weapon and if you don't like the Helbrute as an aesthetic fit for the Sons (completely agree here), buy a loyalist dread and file the Imperial iconography off. It's what I did for my Iron Warriors. Alternatively, you could just buy the Osiron or Sons 'temptor and counts as a normal dread.
Formosa wrote:Well said, the only reason I keep coming back to this is because some keep dismissing that all we want is more options, we won't get them for a long time if at all, but there is nothing wrong with wanting more units/options.
Where do you draw the line at cool new toys vs going against the fluff though?
the_scotsman wrote:Wouldn't be surprised as index tsons can't take a Lord at all, and none of the HQs have the Dust rule...because theyre not made of dust.
The Exalted Sorc is our Lord equivalent and it makes sense as anyone without strong enough psy powers was dusted by the Rubric and given that, there'd be no all-fighty-no-mind-bullets type character left, but there is/was marines who were melee focused and also powerful psychers.
I personally pictured my 1000 Sons vehicles being piloted by Tzangoors. Even thought about making some Tzangoor turret toppers with some upper torsos and hatch rings.
I have a 1000 sons themed predator with flaming braziers on the smoke stacks and inferno bolters in place of the turret gun. I did not put a Tzangoor or Rubric upper torso on it but have the spare parts to do so.
i pictured deamon engines mostly in my army but the Tzangoors infantry can certainly have a junkyard rhino to decorate.
Nah, I am saying its not a unique dark angels unit, so not considered when I talk about dark angels units themselves, Deathwing Knights are a unique dark angels unit, terminators are not, but the Deathwing rule makes them a unique DW unit, so by the same extension if they gave all is dust to a Contemptor, then I would consider it a unique Tsons unit, see what I am saying or am I not explaining it properly?
Yes you are, but having some shared units is just how it is and it is not weird or a problem. Not every unit needs to be unique. Also, I'm not sure that rublic dread would need 'all is dust'. That rule presumably represents the fact that the rubrics really don't have normal body, and thus are more resilient to smaller injuries that might cripple a living person. But most of the dreadnought is mechanical, so it really doesn't become markedly more resilient whether there is some dust or small lump of flesh inside it. The resilience of the mechanical body is already reflected in the stats. Though dreads will be affected by Legion tactics, so presumably TS dreads will get something extra.
Cool cool, I'm not asking for all is dust by the way, it was just an example, if theTsons rule does affect dreads it kind of gets me wondering what that rule could be to actually be useful
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Skerr wrote: I personally pictured my 1000 Sons vehicles being piloted by Tzangoors. Even thought about making some Tzangoor turret toppers with some upper torsos and hatch rings.
I have a 1000 sons themed predator with flaming braziers on the smoke stacks and inferno bolters in place of the turret gun. I did not put a Tzangoor or Rubric upper torso on it but have the spare parts to do so.
i pictured deamon engines mostly in my army but the Tzangoors infantry can certainly have a junkyard rhino to decorate.
That actually sounds cool, and I could see thousand sons using gors for that, doubt would like the idea but when you dont have the numbers, needs must!
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:Again with this Fasle Equivalency stuff.
No one is saying no Tzaangors allowed. We just want more Rubric options then Tzaangors as options. We want the focus to be on Rubrics with Tzaangors filling a couple holes. After this codex drops we are going to have more Tzaangors then Rubrics as options. If no one knew anything about this game and you showed them a TS army they would think the TS units are the support units and the bird men are the real army.
If we were getting another Rubric focused HQ and EITHER a heavy support, or a fast attack Rubric unit, I would be all about this release. I can deal with 50-50. Not getting anything on the Rubric side and getting 3 on the Tzaangor side means I have an Army of Tzaangors supported by Rubrics.
Watch this mutalith is just another kit they already had. Why couldn't they male a Sorc Drednaught? Makes perfect sence. Dying legion that needs to get the most milage out of its members uses tech to extend the existance of the few member it has, right? No lets cram a pleb no-name CSM (which we don't have access to btw) into this metal hunk, whats that put a psyker in there? Na that would be effective amd deady we dont want that.
There's no false equivalency, there's pointing out that your arguments make no sense. There's a large difference between being disappointed that you didn't get the new models that you were hoping for and declaring that the entire faction is ruined forever because you got new, optional units that you like, but didn't get the new models you wanted.
Wanting more Rubric option seems to go completely against the fluff to me, at least until they let Ahriman succeed in his quest. They're a "legion" in name only with such a small handful of living members that the only reason they're still a thing is plot armour. We've had the thing that it's Sorcs and Rubricae only for decades and there's been nothing to change that in the fluff, so yeah, to me, it seems that you're wanting to break the fluff for the sake of new kits. Did the Sons desperately need in-faction anit tank and fast attacks choices? Yes, they were woefully inable to deal with these threats previously (though Traitor Legions did make them playable again, albeit in a very rigid monobuild IMHO).
As for the mix of Sons and not Sons, well, you've got Sorc/Exalted, Rubricae and Scarabs on one side and Tzaangors, Skyfires and the Mutalith on the other, so unless I've missed something, they're at 50/50? And again, really, with the numbers of the Sons, any "army" they field should be mainly fodder since the rubricae are bodyguards and the sorcs aren't to be thrown away. If that fodder comes in the form of Daemons, Tzaangors, Cultist or Traitor Guard should make little difference.
A Sorc dread wouldn't be out of the question, but it also wouldn't be overly consistant with established dreadnaught fluff either. IIRC, the "pilots" go a little loopy after a while which is why the loyalist ones hibernate until they're needed while the spikey ones are chained down and they're more "unleashed" rather than "deployed". Not sure how well a crazy psychic dread would go, and that's before you've even gone into the question of why there'd be any dreads in the first place since they can probably biomancy themselves back together good as new and if they can't (or one of their allies can't/won't, then there's probably not enough left to stuff into a dread either. And then you'd question just how the other schemers would view one of their peers suddenly getting a dreadnaught for a body, and then on top of that, you'd need to question if the whole process would weaken their will enough for the flesh change to take hold and make it all pointless. Again, feels like ignoring fluff for wanting shiny new things. As for normal Dreads, I just assumed that they were either rubric'ed dreads from back in the day or they just grabbed a survivor from a raid and stuffed them into a dread shell and called it a day.
Formosa wrote:3: again your examples completely miss the point, not the mention are completely wrong, a grot IS and orkoid, a scout IS a space marine, a Tzaangor is literally not a Thousand son, a pox walkers IS LITERALLY not a Death Guard, what is so hard for you to grasp with this, adding the keyword doesnt suddenly make them Rubrics, it doesnt suddenly make the Space Marines, so when I have repeatedly asked for more Thousand sons, the stupid people on here have said "derp, Tzaangors are Thousand sons Derp derp", and I have said repeatedly they are not, because they are not, they are an Aux force that work with the Thousand sons, NOT THOUSAND SONS, just emphasising that point, like guard can work with space marines, but that doesnt make them ultramarines or space marines.....
It's hard to grasp that you can't seem to understand that just because it's part of the army, doesn't mean it has to be exactly the same as everything else. What about Kroot or Vespid? Should they not be in the Tau army because they're not Tau? Keywords are just a rules thing, they're not the be-all-end-all defining trait of a model. It's something that allows them to be taken in a sons army while allowing various effects to still work. If they'd left it out, people would be screaming bloody murder that the new unit could make use of the various buffs the rest of the army could. Would it be better if they had the Tzaangor Keyword instead of Heretic Astartes and then they went through and modified every instance that says you can only cast powers/uses abilities/utilise stratagems on Heretic Astartes units to add (or Tzaangor Keyword units if you're using Thousand SOns powers/abilities/stratagems)? Would it really make a difference?
Formosa wrote:4: if what you say is true they would not be able to fight in CC, shoot moving targets (which requires a hell of a lot more dexterity than people are giving them credit for) etc. so no, I stand by that fact that there is no credible fluff reason for lack of weapons options, while there is an option of just taking marines, that leaves the book extremely empty, the gors should have been added in addition to a slight expansion of the marine part of the book, not instead of it, either way I will get what I want from this book, I will create my own Tsons units for non matched play and expand the list myself, it will be very easy, which is yet another reason GW should have done it, because it was very easy to do.
I don't know about you, but my Rubricae never could fight in melee or shoot anything on TT, so that seems like good story/gameplay continuity. I struggle to think of a mechanical reason why you couldn't give 'em any old weapon you wanted within reason, but at the end of the day, they're adhereing to the mindless-golem-servant-to-wizard-master trope with the usual 40k twist to it, but that's the way it's been written and they've chosen to stick with it rather than retcon it, for good (I think it gives them a more distinct feel compared to the copy-paste of the other spikey boyz) or ill (you clearly want havok equivalents).
If you have a group that will allow you to use homebrew, great, I hope you find a good balance and have many enjoyable games.
Formosa wrote:No your right, it is easier to invest in miniatures they already have, we already have rubrics, we dont NEED new models for the heavy weapon of special weapon teams, they already exist, we would just need to buy more boxes like we always have, like with old devastators and wanting 4 lascannon (think the new ones dont even have that), so it would be a net gain for them, just give us the options and we can do the rest and they make money, if a 3rd party comes in offering weapons .... oh wait, they already do..... so GW isnt actually gaining anything by not making the unit option, nor are they in fact losing anything.
And the dread example isnt a good one to be honest, since the models already exist and just need porting over from 30k, which I hope they do, then bam! we have a psy dread that fits nicely into the Tsons and I would be happier, the hellbrute doesnt really fit aesthetically to me (other people may think differently) with Tsons, same with the other FW dread variants save the Big Deamon one (forget its name), that seems to fit.
IIRC, the new Dev kit has 2 of each heavy weapon and if you don't like the Helbrute as an aesthetic fit for the Sons (completely agree here), buy a loyalist dread and file the Imperial iconography off. It's what I did for my Iron Warriors. Alternatively, you could just buy the Osiron or Sons 'temptor and counts as a normal dread.
Formosa wrote:Well said, the only reason I keep coming back to this is because some keep dismissing that all we want is more options, we won't get them for a long time if at all, but there is nothing wrong with wanting more units/options.
Where do you draw the line at cool new toys vs going against the fluff though?
the_scotsman wrote:Wouldn't be surprised as index tsons can't take a Lord at all, and none of the HQs have the Dust rule...because theyre not made of dust.
The Exalted Sorc is our Lord equivalent and it makes sense as anyone without strong enough psy powers was dusted by the Rubric and given that, there'd be no all-fighty-no-mind-bullets type character left, but there is/was marines who were melee focused and also powerful psychers.
Not all chaos dreads go loopy, there was even an Iron Warriors warsmith dread in the fluff, so its not completely out of question, I would see Osirons being mega mega rare though, I agree that the hellbrute doesnt fit the Aesthetic but thankfully we have the angry washing machine Tsons dread to fill that gap.
As for the Tzaangors, yep they are part of the army as they should be, people just were not getting that they are not Tsons, they thought I was saying they are not Tsons and as such should not be in the book, which was wrong, and yeah I want Havocs or special weapon squads because it seems to fit the theme of Tsons more than any other legion bar maybe word bearers or Iron Warriors.
New toys vs the fluff, thats the thing, it fits the fluff, the real disconnect comes from not having the basics in the army, its something that needs a little explaining across the entire chaos range, the Black Legion novel kind of explained it a little bit, but as always the desire to know more kicks in.
Drasius wrote: There's no false equivalency, there's pointing out that your arguments make no sense. There's a large difference between being disappointed that you didn't get the new models that you were hoping for and declaring that the entire faction is ruined forever because you got new, optional units that you like, but didn't get the new models you wanted.
Never said the Army was ruined, said they were dead, read the title, and they are, they WERE an army which focused on bringing Automatons to win fights, and now they are going to be an army with a few automatons to support the Warflocks of Tzeentch, they should have called this codex Tzeentch Non-Daemonkin, not Thousand Sons. Glad to see you agree with me though.
Drasius wrote: Wanting more Rubric option seems to go completely against the fluff to me, at least until they let Ahriman succeed in his quest. They're a "legion" in name only with such a small handful of living members that the only reason they're still a thing is plot armour. We've had the thing that it's Sorcs and Rubricae only for decades and there's been nothing to change that in the fluff, so yeah, to me, it seems that you're wanting to break the fluff for the sake of new kits. Did the Sons desperately need in-faction anit tank and fast attacks choices? Yes, they were woefully inable to deal with these threats previously (though Traitor Legions did make them playable again, albeit in a very rigid monobuild IMHO).
If they are a legion in name only why not get rid of them as a Legion? Plot armor is not a reason to keep something like that around, they could keep them in the fluff and squat the army. There not popular at all since GW is unwilling to spend money on new models for them.
Yet there are other places where we violate the fluff, Like with Hellbrutes (no CSM to put in them), Daemon Engines in general (no access to warp smiths to build them), Vehicles which are supposed to be piloted by CSMs (again no access). If we went by fluff we would have Access to CSM and Warp Smiths we don't why not? That or we don't get Daemon Engines, Vehicles, no Helbrutes, we would have a 9 unit army which had almost as many spawn entries as TS entries.
Drasius wrote: As for the mix of Sons and not Sons, well, you've got Sorc/Exalted, Rubricae and Scarabs on one side and Tzaangors, Skyfires and the Mutalith on the other, so unless I've missed something, they're at 50/50? And again, really, with the numbers of the Sons, any "army" they field should be mainly fodder since the rubricae are bodyguards and the sorcs aren't to be thrown away. If that fodder comes in the form of Daemons, Tzaangors, Cultist or Traitor Guard should make little difference.
Shaman, Enlightened, and Mutalith were announced on the Community page, Skyfires were confirmed on FB, assuming they do the logical thing and have all 3 new Tzaangor units access to Discs (which also breaks the fluff of Disks of Tzeentch being an Honored gift and being rare but hey it's what you want). This means we have a 4 to 3 ratio of Tzaangors and we will now have 2 variations of Spawn maybe we can get a flying version and an HQ Spawn you know more TS units.
Drasius wrote: A Sorc dread wouldn't be out of the question, but it also wouldn't be overly consistant with established dreadnaught fluff either. IIRC, the "pilots" go a little loopy after a while which is why the loyalist ones hibernate until they're needed while the spikey ones are chained down and they're more "unleashed" rather than "deployed". Not sure how well a crazy psychic dread would go, and that's before you've even gone into the question of why there'd be any dreads in the first place since they can probably biomancy themselves back together good as new and if they can't (or one of their allies can't/won't, then there's probably not enough left to stuff into a dread either. And then you'd question just how the other schemers would view one of their peers suddenly getting a dreadnaught for a body, and then on top of that, you'd need to question if the whole process would weaken their will enough for the flesh change to take hold and make it all pointless. Again, feels like ignoring fluff for wanting shiny new things. As for normal Dreads, I just assumed that they were either rubric'ed dreads from back in the day or they just grabbed a survivor from a raid and stuffed them into a dread shell and called it a day.
Of course you could, but here are a bunch of reasons why it makes no sense, Everything you said can be applied to SM and Libby dreads, why does the group that hates and tries to destroy psykers in all their forms, except the ones they think are okay, but even those are shunned. Which means OBJECTIVLY you are much more likely to have a Chaos Sorc Dread (Especially from a dying Legion) then a Libby Dread, or what do you think their SM brothers would think when that fething abomination gets put in a damn Dread.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Never said the Army was ruined, said they were dead, read the title, and they are, they WERE an army which focused on bringing Automatons to win fights, and now they are going to be an army with a few automatons to support the Warflocks of Tzeentch, they should have called this codex Tzeentch Non-Daemonkin, not Thousand Sons. Glad to see you agree with me though.
I don't agree with you at all. Unless GW badly mangles the points, this will be the most viable the Sons have been in decades, possibly ever. Even beyond that, you can still take Sorcs/Rubricae/Scarabs, nobody is forcing you to take non-marine units so you can focus your army on the dustbins if you so choose. Given the surety of your statement, you should be posting in the news and ruours thread since you've clearly got an early copy of the 'dex if you KNOW it's going to be so heavily biased towards the non-marine units.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: If they are a legion in name only why not get rid of them as a Legion? Plot armor is not a reason to keep something like that around, they could keep them in the fluff and squat the army. There not popular at all since GW is unwilling to spend money on new models for them.
Because the Sons are one of the perennial favourites of the 10 billion "which legion is your favourite" polls that have been held on the various 40k forums for years and there would be a riot if they tried? Not willing to spend money? We got 3 new sorcs (and a load of bits to make dozens of variations), a new Ahriman (on disk!) and he got his own trilogy and an assortment of short stories, redone Rubricae, our own termies, a freakin' primarch (all of which are fantastic models) and you say that GW doesn't want to spend money on them? Just how high are you? Plot armour isn't a reason to keep 'em, but their popularity and their suitability for making good villians definately is.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Yet there are other places where we violate the fluff, Like with Hellbrutes (no CSM to put in them), Daemon Engines in general (no access to warp smiths to build them), Vehicles which are supposed to be piloted by CSMs (again no access). If we went by fluff we would have Access to CSM and Warp Smiths we don't why not? That or we don't get Daemon Engines, Vehicles, no Helbrutes, we would have a 9 unit army which had almost as many spawn entries as TS entries.
Dreads could be pre-rubric and were dusted into it permanantly or even have been stolen salvaged from other legions/chapters via sorcery, the daemon engines can be traded with other forces on the unlikely chance that you can't make your own mechanical shell and have your various sorcs bind daemons into them and Vehicles can be piloted by anyone, they don't have to be marines, they could be daeamonically possessed or you can have pre-rubric vehicles that had their drivers dusted into their compartment. Given the fluff from the heresy, there were relatively few TS techmarines and those they did have probably got offed in the scuffle on Prospero. When your legion gets cut down from tens of thousands to ~1500 and then cut even further by the rubric, you're not going to have many specialists left, even less than you'd expect since the "normies" all got dusted and only the stronger psychers (who probably weren't techmarines or chaplains and such) remain, yeah, it's not super likely for you to have any techmarines left. Sure, you'll have some of the order of ruin, but I'd say much of it was replaced by sorcery and the stuff that wasn't probably got farmed out to the dark mechanicum.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Shaman, Enlightened, and Mutalith were announced on the Community page, Skyfires were confirmed on FB, assuming they do the logical thing and have all 3 new Tzaangor units access to Discs (which also breaks the fluff of Disks of Tzeentch being an Honored gift and being rare but hey it's what you want). This means we have a 4 to 3 ratio of Tzaangors and we will now have 2 variations of Spawn maybe we can get a flying version and an HQ Spawn you know more TS units.
So, you're assuming what we're going to get and complaining that the sky is falling about stuff that might not happen? Also, I never said I wanted disks to be common.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Of course you could, but here are a bunch of reasons why it makes no sense, Everything you said can be applied to SM and Libby dreads, why does the group that hates and tries to destroy psykers in all their forms, except the ones they think are okay, but even those are shunned. Which means OBJECTIVLY you are much more likely to have a Chaos Sorc Dread (Especially from a dying Legion) then a Libby Dread, or what do you think their SM brothers would think when that fething abomination gets put in a damn Dread.
Except the bit where the chaos marines don't have the same views on serving their chapter and if you put someone in a giant unstoppable killing machine that's nigh invulnerable to anything short of anti-tank weapons, especially if it has retained it's psycher abilities, it's not going to let you keep bossing it around. Therefore anyone in command isn't going to let their position as chief arse-kicker be taken by a near dead psycher. IIRC, the Sons were the ones who figured out how to preserve the ability of psychers to continue to cast their space magic after they'd been stuffed into a dread and shared it with all the other legions, but only the BA really thought it was a good idea. It's definately not out of the question that the Sons simply can't replicate that anymore now that the majority of their legion and support staff have been busy being dead for the last 10,000 years. The loyalists probably also don't have the ability to heal themselves and others from "He's-dead-Jim" back to "good-as-new" status with psychery and witchcraft like the biomancers of the Thousand Sons do either, so, again, another reason why it's fairly unlikely for them to have psychernaughts.
Don't get me wrong, I think a psychic dread would be cool, and sometimes that's all the justification you need, but you can't ignore that there are a bunch of fluff reasons that say why it hasn't happened. Yes, you can totally re-write the fluff and retcon stuff away, but everytime you do, you're losing something of their identity. Having the same toys as other legions/chapters doesn't give them something special or expand their identity away from spiky marines, it goes the opposite way. The Sons have always been the most different from the other legions, I just don't see why you want to make them the same when we have interesting, fluffy choices for the first time in forever. I used to hate seeing people posting about their "Thousand Son list" with 1 squad of 5 rubricae and then filled with stuff like oblits, raptors and bikers, but I could understand why they did it because the Sons couldn't remain fluffy and have in codex FA or non-vehicle HS choices. Now we can and I'd really encourage you to at least wait until we have some solid info from the leaks before deciding that the Sons are "dead". What if rubricae are 15 ppm, they get regular smite and everyone always re-rolls perils with a 1CP stratagem for +1 to wound for all bolt weapons? Would they still be "dead"?
craggy wrote: I've tried reading some of this thread, but I'll admit the arguing from both sides made it difficult to grasp, but can someone clear something up for me? There's a lot of talk about Gors, are Thousand Sons bringing Beastmen back to 40k? Because that'd be cool.
Otherwise, Tzaangors have been in Thousand Sons already, and with GW doing the smart cross-game daemons thing, it only makes sense that the other AOS units would get some rules. Hell, I'd like to see them bring units from other armies in AOS into 40k! Gimme some Duardin assault units for Tau or Guard, some feral Orks and a sprue of space guns added to a Stormcast box would have saved them tons on developing the Custodes army!
Yes there will be at least 4 Tzaangor units as of right now. 1 troops 1 Elite 1 FA and the Shaman is up in the air could be an HQ or could be an Elite slot. I say its gonna be a HQ so people that want all bird armies can do so.
My fingers are crossed that we see some clever use of already existing resources by GW. Here are some units that could do with being written into existance:
1) The Exalted Sorcerer kit is a goddamn work of art. It contains enough pieces to build very distinctive units. The Tzeentchy Bird Sorcerer would make a great model to base an elite off of. Then you have the daemonfire and the daemonfaced options. These could all easily be utilised to give us some different speed/buff/psyker/combat options for our sorcerers. It would be überfluffy too, as 1kSons is really all about their central cadre of powerful sorcerers, who are the reflection of a past glory. Get their rules right. Give us variety of builds/units to match the amazing variety of the model.
2) Tzaangor options; they come with shields, after all. Some tanky tzaangors would really fit the bill imo. Maybe also the option for one heavy CC weapon per 5 or 10 gors (i.e. those double-handed swords and axes). Realistically, our cheaper units (ie gors) are going to be in direct competition with the new Pink Horrors who are pretty amazing. They deepstrike, put out a shedload of chaff-clearing dice, and have a native 4++. I hope the Tzaangors offer enough punch and flexibility to pose a threat to their obvious gribbly competitor...
3) Osiron Dreadnought. Pretty straight forward really. It's an iconic model that would be very cool.
4) Castellax robots. Fast, punchy, cool looking - just what the Sons need in their roster. Using psychically-controlled automata suits the style and play of the Sons really well too.
5) Not a model per se, but some strong synergy with Tzeentch Daemons. Something like a 2CP strategy that allows you before the battle, if fielding a Lord of Change, to replace some or all of your aspiring sorcerers' mininsmites with actual powers. Or heralds affecting the strength of warpflamers. Or sorcerers with access to Tzeentch discipline powers (Mr. birdface the exalted sorcerer, for example).
All of this is possible and would be great news for the faction, without printing a single new model. A man can hope, eh?
craggy wrote: I've tried reading some of this thread, but I'll admit the arguing from both sides made it difficult to grasp, but can someone clear something up for me? There's a lot of talk about Gors, are Thousand Sons bringing Beastmen back to 40k? Because that'd be cool.
Otherwise, Tzaangors have been in Thousand Sons already, and with GW doing the smart cross-game daemons thing, it only makes sense that the other AOS units would get some rules. Hell, I'd like to see them bring units from other armies in AOS into 40k! Gimme some Duardin assault units for Tau or Guard, some feral Orks and a sprue of space guns added to a Stormcast box would have saved them tons on developing the Custodes army!
Yes there will be at least 4 Tzaangor units as of right now. 1 troops 1 Elite 1 FA and the Shaman is up in the air could be an HQ or could be an Elite slot. I say its gonna be a HQ so people that want all bird armies can do so.
this is good, it means you can do a all marine army, an all gor army or a mix of the both depending on what theme you want
grouchoben wrote: My fingers are crossed that we see some clever use of already existing resources by GW. Here are some units that could do with being written into existance:
1) The Exalted Sorcerer kit is a goddamn work of art. It contains enough pieces to build very distinctive units. The Tzeentchy Bird Sorcerer would make a great model to base an elite off of. Then you have the daemonfire and the daemonfaced options. These could all easily be utilised to give us some different speed/buff/psyker/combat options for our sorcerers. It would be überfluffy too, as 1kSons is really all about their central cadre of powerful sorcerers, who are the reflection of a past glory. Get their rules right. Give us variety of builds/units to match the amazing variety of the model.
2) Tzaangor options; they come with shields, after all. Some tanky tzaangors would really fit the bill imo. Maybe also the option for one heavy CC weapon per 5 or 10 gors (i.e. those double-handed swords and axes). Realistically, our cheaper units (ie gors) are going to be in direct competition with the new Pink Horrors who are pretty amazing. They deepstrike, put out a shedload of chaff-clearing dice, and have a native 4++. I hope the Tzaangors offer enough punch and flexibility to pose a threat to their obvious gribbly competitor...
3) Osiron Dreadnought. Pretty straight forward really. It's an iconic model that would be very cool.
4) Castellax robots. Fast, punchy, cool looking - just what the Sons need in their roster. Using psychically-controlled automata suits the style and play of the Sons really well too.
5) Not a model per se, but some strong synergy with Tzeentch Daemons. Something like a 2CP strategy that allows you before the battle, if fielding a Lord of Change, to replace some or all of your aspiring sorcerers' mininsmites with actual powers. Or heralds affecting the strength of warpflamers. Or sorcerers with access to Tzeentch discipline powers (Mr. birdface the exalted sorcerer, for example).
All of this is possible and would be great news for the faction, without printing a single new model. A man can hope, eh?
I suspect the only one you might get is 2), and even then I think you'd be lucky. 3 & 4 are highly doubtful as there a fairly long history of GW not putting FW models in GW codecies. As for 1), also not very likely since a) tying model stats to specific modeling options is going to end with a bunch of issues and b ), IIRC, the sprue isn't something that you can easily seperate the various gubbins into individual packages, so if I'm understanding your idea right, it's also a non-starter. I can't claim to have followed the other dex releases, but I don't recall other dexes getting options for stratagems that rely on fielding models from a different codex, so, again, highly unlikely. So, yeah, you can hope, but as we should all know, hope is the road to disappointment.
Drasius wrote: tying model stats to specific modeling options is going to end with a bunch of issues and b ), IIRC, the sprue isn't something that you can easily seperate the various gubbins into individual packages, so if I'm understanding your idea right, it's also a non-starter.
Carnifex says "hi". Having special rule based on specific model in kit is mostly just case of packaging. Assuming special rule is tied to ONE part. If multiple issues comes if players have been mixing&matching bits but then again GW has history of saying "screw old models".
Good points, but the exalted kit does have clear thematic matches between its pieces - eg levitating, feathered, bird head, bird feet, winged pack = Tzerntch exalted, for example.
Fair point on FW codices.
Belakor in CD Codex has access to the heretic discipline, so I disagree there.
I don't agree with you at all. Unless GW badly mangles the points, this will be the most viable the Sons have been in decades, possibly ever. Even beyond that, you can still take Sorcs/Rubricae/Scarabs, nobody is forcing you to take non-marine units so you can focus your army on the dustbins if you so choose. Given the surety of your statement, you should be posting in the news and ruours thread since you've clearly got an early copy of the 'dex if you KNOW it's going to be so heavily biased towards the non-marine units.
Because the Sons are one of the perennial favourites of the 10 billion "which legion is your favourite" polls that have been held on the various 40k forums for years and there would be a riot if they tried? Not willing to spend money? We got 3 new sorcs (and a load of bits to make dozens of variations), a new Ahriman (on disk!) and he got his own trilogy and an assortment of short stories, redone Rubricae, our own termies, a freakin' primarch (all of which are fantastic models) and you say that GW doesn't want to spend money on them? Just how high are you? Plot armour isn't a reason to keep 'em, but their popularity and their suitability for making good villians definately is.
Dreads could be pre-rubric and were dusted into it permanantly or even have been stolen salvaged from other legions/chapters via sorcery, the daemon engines can be traded with other forces on the unlikely chance that you can't make your own mechanical shell and have your various sorcs bind daemons into them and Vehicles can be piloted by anyone, they don't have to be marines, they could be daeamonically possessed or you can have pre-rubric vehicles that had their drivers dusted into their compartment. Given the fluff from the heresy, there were relatively few TS techmarines and those they did have probably got offed in the scuffle on Prospero. When your legion gets cut down from tens of thousands to ~1500 and then cut even further by the rubric, you're not going to have many specialists left, even less than you'd expect since the "normies" all got dusted and only the stronger psychers (who probably weren't techmarines or chaplains and such) remain, yeah, it's not super likely for you to have any techmarines left. Sure, you'll have some of the order of ruin, but I'd say much of it was replaced by sorcery and the stuff that wasn't probably got farmed out to the dark mechanicum.
So, you're assuming what we're going to get and complaining that the sky is falling about stuff that might not happen? Also, I never said I wanted disks to be common.
Except the bit where the chaos marines don't have the same views on serving their chapter and if you put someone in a giant unstoppable killing machine that's nigh invulnerable to anything short of anti-tank weapons, especially if it has retained it's psycher abilities, it's not going to let you keep bossing it around. Therefore anyone in command isn't going to let their position as chief arse-kicker be taken by a near dead psycher. IIRC, the Sons were the ones who figured out how to preserve the ability of psychers to continue to cast their space magic after they'd been stuffed into a dread and shared it with all the other legions, but only the BA really thought it was a good idea. It's definately not out of the question that the Sons simply can't replicate that anymore now that the majority of their legion and support staff have been busy being dead for the last 10,000 years. The loyalists probably also don't have the ability to heal themselves and others from "He's-dead-Jim" back to "good-as-new" status with psychery and witchcraft like the biomancers of the Thousand Sons do either, so, again, another reason why it's fairly unlikely for them to have psychernaughts.
Don't get me wrong, I think a psychic dread would be cool, and sometimes that's all the justification you need, but you can't ignore that there are a bunch of fluff reasons that say why it hasn't happened. Yes, you can totally re-write the fluff and retcon stuff away, but everytime you do, you're losing something of their identity. Having the same toys as other legions/chapters doesn't give them something special or expand their identity away from spiky marines, it goes the opposite way. The Sons have always been the most different from the other legions, I just don't see why you want to make them the same when we have interesting, fluffy choices for the first time in forever. I used to hate seeing people posting about their "Thousand Son list" with 1 squad of 5 rubricae and then filled with stuff like oblits, raptors and bikers, but I could understand why they did it because the Sons couldn't remain fluffy and have in codex FA or non-vehicle HS choices. Now we can and I'd really encourage you to at least wait until we have some solid info from the leaks before deciding that the Sons are "dead". What if rubricae are 15 ppm, they get regular smite and everyone always re-rolls perils with a 1CP stratagem for +1 to wound for all bolt weapons? Would they still be "dead"?
You do agree the army you used to see on the table is dead. You wont see it any more. You wont see a bunch of rubrics on the table supported by a bunch of sorcerers. Now it will be 1 Rubric squad or 1 SOT squad supporting Tzaangors and Daemons,
How long did it take to get those kits? Just because it recently happened doesnt mean GW gives a gak. I beleive SM got 5 new SM kits in the time it took them to get 1 new kit if you include Primaris Marines.
I am not assuning what we are getting they announced what we are getting and I know we don't need more footslogging infantry. We need fast attack. Enlightened and Skyfires both have Discs in thier boxes its a logical conclusion, not an assumption.
Okay let me put this one to rest. You will NOT see a points drop, unless RM get seriously hamstringed in some way(like implamenting a cumalitive -1 to smite per cast). PM got a points drop with CA NOT thier codex. Why wouldn't you drop the points then? There is no reason to not drop the points, espically since they are underpowered compared to what the will be with the codex. Getting a points drop now makes no logical sense what so ever. CA came out a month ago we will probably have the TS codex in hand in a month. If there was a points reduction to do it would have happened, with CA not with the codex.
I don't agree with you at all. Unless GW badly mangles the points, this will be the most viable the Sons have been in decades, possibly ever. Even beyond that, you can still take Sorcs/Rubricae/Scarabs, nobody is forcing you to take non-marine units so you can focus your army on the dustbins if you so choose. Given the surety of your statement, you should be posting in the news and ruours thread since you've clearly got an early copy of the 'dex if you KNOW it's going to be so heavily biased towards the non-marine units.
Because the Sons are one of the perennial favourites of the 10 billion "which legion is your favourite" polls that have been held on the various 40k forums for years and there would be a riot if they tried? Not willing to spend money? We got 3 new sorcs (and a load of bits to make dozens of variations), a new Ahriman (on disk!) and he got his own trilogy and an assortment of short stories, redone Rubricae, our own termies, a freakin' primarch (all of which are fantastic models) and you say that GW doesn't want to spend money on them? Just how high are you? Plot armour isn't a reason to keep 'em, but their popularity and their suitability for making good villians definately is.
Dreads could be pre-rubric and were dusted into it permanantly or even have been stolen salvaged from other legions/chapters via sorcery, the daemon engines can be traded with other forces on the unlikely chance that you can't make your own mechanical shell and have your various sorcs bind daemons into them and Vehicles can be piloted by anyone, they don't have to be marines, they could be daeamonically possessed or you can have pre-rubric vehicles that had their drivers dusted into their compartment. Given the fluff from the heresy, there were relatively few TS techmarines and those they did have probably got offed in the scuffle on Prospero. When your legion gets cut down from tens of thousands to ~1500 and then cut even further by the rubric, you're not going to have many specialists left, even less than you'd expect since the "normies" all got dusted and only the stronger psychers (who probably weren't techmarines or chaplains and such) remain, yeah, it's not super likely for you to have any techmarines left. Sure, you'll have some of the order of ruin, but I'd say much of it was replaced by sorcery and the stuff that wasn't probably got farmed out to the dark mechanicum.
So, you're assuming what we're going to get and complaining that the sky is falling about stuff that might not happen? Also, I never said I wanted disks to be common.
Except the bit where the chaos marines don't have the same views on serving their chapter and if you put someone in a giant unstoppable killing machine that's nigh invulnerable to anything short of anti-tank weapons, especially if it has retained it's psycher abilities, it's not going to let you keep bossing it around. Therefore anyone in command isn't going to let their position as chief arse-kicker be taken by a near dead psycher. IIRC, the Sons were the ones who figured out how to preserve the ability of psychers to continue to cast their space magic after they'd been stuffed into a dread and shared it with all the other legions, but only the BA really thought it was a good idea. It's definately not out of the question that the Sons simply can't replicate that anymore now that the majority of their legion and support staff have been busy being dead for the last 10,000 years. The loyalists probably also don't have the ability to heal themselves and others from "He's-dead-Jim" back to "good-as-new" status with psychery and witchcraft like the biomancers of the Thousand Sons do either, so, again, another reason why it's fairly unlikely for them to have psychernaughts.
Don't get me wrong, I think a psychic dread would be cool, and sometimes that's all the justification you need, but you can't ignore that there are a bunch of fluff reasons that say why it hasn't happened. Yes, you can totally re-write the fluff and retcon stuff away, but everytime you do, you're losing something of their identity. Having the same toys as other legions/chapters doesn't give them something special or expand their identity away from spiky marines, it goes the opposite way. The Sons have always been the most different from the other legions, I just don't see why you want to make them the same when we have interesting, fluffy choices for the first time in forever. I used to hate seeing people posting about their "Thousand Son list" with 1 squad of 5 rubricae and then filled with stuff like oblits, raptors and bikers, but I could understand why they did it because the Sons couldn't remain fluffy and have in codex FA or non-vehicle HS choices. Now we can and I'd really encourage you to at least wait until we have some solid info from the leaks before deciding that the Sons are "dead". What if rubricae are 15 ppm, they get regular smite and everyone always re-rolls perils with a 1CP stratagem for +1 to wound for all bolt weapons? Would they still be "dead"?
You do agree the army you used to see on the table is dead. You wont see it any more. You wont see a bunch of rubrics on the table supported by a bunch of sorcerers. Now it will be 1 Rubric squad or 1 SOT squad supporting Tzaangors and Daemons,
How long did it take to get those kits? Just because it recently happened doesnt mean GW gives a gak. I beleive SM got 5 new SM kits in the time it took them to get 1 new kit if you include Primaris Marines.
I am not assuning what we are getting they announced what we are getting and I know we don't need more footslogging infantry. We need fast attack. Enlightened and Skyfires both have Discs in thier boxes its a logical conclusion, not an assumption.
Okay let me put this one to rest. You will NOT see a points drop, unless RM get seriously hamstringed in some way(like implamenting a cumalitive -1 to smite per cast). PM got a points drop with CA NOT thier codex. Why wouldn't you drop the points then? There is no reason to not drop the points, espically since they are underpowered compared to what the will be with the codex. Getting a points drop now makes no logical sense what so ever. CA came out a month ago we will probably have the TS codex in hand in a month. If there was a points reduction to do it would have happened, with CA not with the codex.
this is assuming the Tzanagors are priced more compeitivly. if the Gors are massivly over priced and rubrics are a steal. you'll never see anything but rubric marines.
CA coming out recently isn't really an argument against changes in the Codex, I don't think. Most changes were to armies that already had their codex - new codexes were still being tested and balanced, so CA left them well alone. Likewise CD - we didn't see LoC drop 20pts in CA, even though CA and the CD codex were within a month of each other.
Necrons, Orks, Tau and 1kSons were all given the cold shoulder because they're up next in the Codex train.
EnTyme wrote: Wait, wasn't the goalpost over here a second ago?
Explain where the goalpost has shifted, I have been very consistent throughout.
Well, my headcanon (equally valid as yours) is that the vindicators, assault marines, tactical marines, dreadnoughts, predators and all other units not specifically unique to blood angels are "generic units" and not blood angels at all.
Dammit, if I wanted to play generic space marines I would have bought codex: Space marines! Why are blood angels limited only to death company, sanguinary guard, furioso dreads, librarian dreads, death company dreads and a few named characters who don't count because, hello, not EVERYONE wants to structure their blood angels army around one specific named dude! Who are these rhino drivers and land raider drivers and assault marines who don't even have "blood angels" in their name and what are they doing in the army? I'd like the fluff to explain that!
lets see, what do you get when you google "thousand sons rhino"?
Oh look at that, it's a rubric in the gunner's seat there, I wonder how they managed that highly complex conversion.
Wow what nonsense are you talking?
Blood angels didnt turn there entire legion into rubrics, context matters here, so if you are going down the hyperbole route at least pick a good one
So yes its a valid question to ask where are all the drivers coming from, its also equally as valid to point out that all the vehicles etc. are not unique to Tsons and not considered when talking about Tsons units, now back in the day when these vehicles could take legion specific upgrades, yeah I would look at them and say "thats an emperors children Rhino, it has sonic blasters instead of bolters and that siren upgrade thingy", these days a Word bearers Rhino is no different than a world eaters one, the only difference with Tsons is that all the crews would have been turned into Rubrics, so I wonder who drives the vehicles and would like a little blurb to explain it, now IF the Osiron dread turns up and is a psyker dread, or they gave the contemptor all is dust, I would look at it differently.
As for moving goal posts, its not moving goal posts to wonder about something completely different from the conversion I was having, who pilots the vehicles doesnt really impact on the "I would like more types of Rubrics" conversation.
It isn't "hyperbole" if I apply the exact same logic you've applied to Thousand Sons to other armies and see what happens.
Unique units that are not space marines, don't count - gotcha
Named characters don't count because not everyone wants to use them - gotcha
Units that other subfactions have don't count - gotcha
In this instance, how many "real" unique units constitute other existing subfactions which have been around for many editions?
Blood Angels: 3 unique dreadnoughts, 1 unique tank, 1 unique HQ in the Sanguinary Priest, 2 unique infantry units. 7 total for an army that's been unique since what, second ed? third?
Space Wolves: 2 unique dreads, 2 unique planes, 2 unique infantry units. Everything else is just a rename of existing space marine units, that hardly counts. Wait, wtf is this? FOUR units of different flavors of wolfy wolf? they're nearly outnumbering the REAL space wolves units, this is an outrage!!
Deathwatch: 3 unique units. GW, you make me sick.
Grey Knights are the only subfaction that's not completely overrun with disgusting GENERIC marine units and unacceptable non-power armored units. Grey knights players must be so pleased right now, their faction is the only one that even approaches OK.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: You do agree the army you used to see on the table is dead. You wont see it any more. You wont see a bunch of rubrics on the table supported by a bunch of sorcerers. Now it will be 1 Rubric squad or 1 SOT squad supporting Tzaangors and Daemons,
The army you used to see on the table? Do you mean that one unit of Rubricae that somehow made up an entire army?
I mean, if you want to go back to the "good old days" of using just that one unit, nothing is stopping you. Also, why won't you see Rubrics on the table with sorcerors? Nothing says you HAVE to take X units of Tzaangors.
How hard is it to understand that, just because there are Gors in the codex, you don't need to use them. You can take a list of just Rubricae, no sweat. You've lost nothing. You've only gained units.
How long did it take to get those kits? Just because it recently happened doesnt mean GW gives a gak. I beleive SM got 5 new SM kits in the time it took them to get 1 new kit if you include Primaris Marines.
If you're including Primaris, then you should probably understand that Primaris are an entirely new range in their own right. They're not just "new SM units" - it's a functional rebranding of the face of Space Marines.
Okay let me put this one to rest. You will NOT see a points drop, unless RM get seriously hamstringed in some way(like implamenting a cumalitive -1 to smite per cast). PM got a points drop with CA NOT thier codex. Why wouldn't you drop the points then? There is no reason to not drop the points, espically since they are underpowered compared to what the will be with the codex. Getting a points drop now makes no logical sense what so ever. CA came out a month ago we will probably have the TS codex in hand in a month. If there was a points reduction to do it would have happened, with CA not with the codex.
How much are you willing to bet on that?
Also, who even says the Tzaangor will be priced competitively? After all, if they're over-priced and the Rubricae are nominally priced, you'll see Rubricae more than Tzaangors - and isn't that what you're clamouring for?
this is assuming the Tzanagors are priced more compeitivly. if the Gors are massivly over priced and rubrics are a steal. you'll never see anything but rubric marines.
This is rather unlikely as rubrics were priced to codex with original smite rules so now pay for unlimited smite which now is not true anymore. Well unless GW scraps the beta smite rule completely.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: You do agree the army you used to see on the table is dead. You wont see it any more. You wont see a bunch of rubrics on the table supported by a bunch of sorcerers. Now it will be 1 Rubric squad or 1 SOT squad supporting Tzaangors and Daemons,
How long did it take to get those kits? Just because it recently happened doesnt mean GW gives a gak. I beleive SM got 5 new SM kits in the time it took them to get 1 new kit if you include Primaris Marines.
I am not assuning what we are getting they announced what we are getting and I know we don't need more footslogging infantry. We need fast attack. Enlightened and Skyfires both have Discs in thier boxes its a logical conclusion, not an assumption.
Okay let me put this one to rest. You will NOT see a points drop, unless RM get seriously hamstringed in some way(like implamenting a cumalitive -1 to smite per cast). PM got a points drop with CA NOT thier codex. Why wouldn't you drop the points then? There is no reason to not drop the points, espically since they are underpowered compared to what the will be with the codex. Getting a points drop now makes no logical sense what so ever. CA came out a month ago we will probably have the TS codex in hand in a month. If there was a points reduction to do it would have happened, with CA not with the codex.
No, I don't agree that an all marine force is a thing of the past. There are people out there who will want to field an all marine Thousand Sons force, very possibly some of the same people who've been doing that for the last decade or more. Others will welcome the chance to field the various mutant rabble while others still will simply put whatever they want on the table 'cause they like the models. Unless there's a wild paradigm shift by GW, the Sons won't be meta-competative, so you will likely not see anything but Magnus in seriously competative lists while anyone who actually cares about the army will continue to run them in semi-competative and casual games, exactly the same as they have since they were introduced as they've never been "good" in the meta sense. You (the general sense, not you specifically) weren't competative if you were bringing pure Sons for the last decade or more (though full cabal rattled a few cages in late 7th), why are you freaking out about it now?
If you're really correct (and given that we've had absolutely no leaks regarding points or abilities [to my knowledge], I don't know how you're coming to that conclusion), then why would you take any marines at all if the new stuff is so superior to the existing stuff?
Put it to rest? Unless you've got some secret inside info that you're not sharing, you're stabbing blindly in the dark just like everyone else. GW has an erratic enough track record that it's nigh impossible to predict what they'll do. Eldar wildly stronger than anyone else? Give them massive buffs! Bottom tier dexes suffering for ages? Release half a dozen new armies! Imperial Knight get their first dex ever? Release another one 11 months later! Didn't release FAQ's at all for 6th? Release them on a regular basis and suddenly re-engage with the community! Reinvogorate WHFB with the End Times? Destroy the entire old world!
That's not to say that rubricae won't be bad in the new dex, they've been bad for a very, very long time and I still struggle to believe that GW remembered they existed and released their entire range with new sculpts (really nice ones too!), but someone over there writing the rules has a hate boner for the Sons when it comes to rules, but who knows with GW. Until we start seeing proper leaks and not just wishlisting and wild speculation, you're getting agitated over nothing. Once we get something solid, if it sucks, then yes, by all means, get your torch and pitchfork out, but until then, please chill the hell out. Even if they are bad, you're currently sporting an all marine force - do you honestly think that GW is going to look at the underperforming state of the Sons and actively make them worse? If not, then how will the new dex make your army worse than it already is, even without considering that you'll get various stratagems, warlord traits and, very likely given other marine dexes have gotten faction specific spells, a new lore as well?
Do you have a single shred of evidence re: points, abilities or stratagems from the new dex? If yes, please share. If no, well, what are you basing your claims on? If no, don't you think it's a little bit crazy to go on an extended rant about how your army is dead when you literally have no evidence one way or the other than they have made any changes at all for the worse compared to the all-rubricae-all-the-time army you must currently be running?
I think it's still odd that someone says "It's not Tsons if it's not all Rubrics!" When this is how Tsons actually fight.. It's Thousand Sons, they lead the Gors, it's their armies from the Planet of Sorcerers and not some random planets Tzeentch armies.
Just because it's not all walking rubric doesn't mean it's still not armies used by the THOUSAND SONS.
EnTyme wrote: Wait, wasn't the goalpost over here a second ago?
Explain where the goalpost has shifted, I have been very consistent throughout.
Well, my headcanon (equally valid as yours) is that the vindicators, assault marines, tactical marines, dreadnoughts, predators and all other units not specifically unique to blood angels are "generic units" and not blood angels at all.
Dammit, if I wanted to play generic space marines I would have bought codex: Space marines! Why are blood angels limited only to death company, sanguinary guard, furioso dreads, librarian dreads, death company dreads and a few named characters who don't count because, hello, not EVERYONE wants to structure their blood angels army around one specific named dude! Who are these rhino drivers and land raider drivers and assault marines who don't even have "blood angels" in their name and what are they doing in the army? I'd like the fluff to explain that!
lets see, what do you get when you google "thousand sons rhino"?
Oh look at that, it's a rubric in the gunner's seat there, I wonder how they managed that highly complex conversion.
Wow what nonsense are you talking?
Blood angels didnt turn there entire legion into rubrics, context matters here, so if you are going down the hyperbole route at least pick a good one
So yes its a valid question to ask where are all the drivers coming from, its also equally as valid to point out that all the vehicles etc. are not unique to Tsons and not considered when talking about Tsons units, now back in the day when these vehicles could take legion specific upgrades, yeah I would look at them and say "thats an emperors children Rhino, it has sonic blasters instead of bolters and that siren upgrade thingy", these days a Word bearers Rhino is no different than a world eaters one, the only difference with Tsons is that all the crews would have been turned into Rubrics, so I wonder who drives the vehicles and would like a little blurb to explain it, now IF the Osiron dread turns up and is a psyker dread, or they gave the contemptor all is dust, I would look at it differently.
As for moving goal posts, its not moving goal posts to wonder about something completely different from the conversion I was having, who pilots the vehicles doesnt really impact on the "I would like more types of Rubrics" conversation.
It isn't "hyperbole" if I apply the exact same logic you've applied to Thousand Sons to other armies and see what happens.
Unique units that are not space marines, don't count - gotcha
Named characters don't count because not everyone wants to use them - gotcha
Units that other subfactions have don't count - gotcha
In this instance, how many "real" unique units constitute other existing subfactions which have been around for many editions?
Blood Angels: 3 unique dreadnoughts, 1 unique tank, 1 unique HQ in the Sanguinary Priest, 2 unique infantry units. 7 total for an army that's been unique since what, second ed? third?
Space Wolves: 2 unique dreads, 2 unique planes, 2 unique infantry units. Everything else is just a rename of existing space marine units, that hardly counts. Wait, wtf is this? FOUR units of different flavors of wolfy wolf? they're nearly outnumbering the REAL space wolves units, this is an outrage!!
Deathwatch: 3 unique units. GW, you make me sick.
Grey Knights are the only subfaction that's not completely overrun with disgusting GENERIC marine units and unacceptable non-power armored units. Grey knights players must be so pleased right now, their faction is the only one that even approaches OK.
again, what are you talking about, what point are you trying to make by mentioning that other subfactions get a lot more unique units? are you trying to support what I am saying by asking for more units for the Tsons specifically? as that is what it looks like.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: I think it's still odd that someone says "It's not Tsons if it's not all Rubrics!" When this is how Tsons actually fight.. It's Thousand Sons, they lead the Gors, it's their armies from the Planet of Sorcerers and not some random planets Tzeentch armies.
Just because it's not all walking rubric doesn't mean it's still not armies used by the THOUSAND SONS.
Some people just want power armour vs power armour slapping each other. I personally feel doing stuff like this makes chaos space marines more unique compared to their loyalist counterparts. It's also known that they have tzaangors on the planet of the sorcerers. In my eyes if they update EC and the only focus on noise marines I will be disappointed. I personally hope for gen-enhanced cultists considering the EC's focus on apothecaries and their sudden need to find psykers. I hope our apothecary is a blend of the two roles.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: I think it's still odd that someone says "It's not Tsons if it's not all Rubrics!" When this is how Tsons actually fight.. It's Thousand Sons, they lead the Gors, it's their armies from the Planet of Sorcerers and not some random planets Tzeentch armies.
Just because it's not all walking rubric doesn't mean it's still not armies used by the THOUSAND SONS.
I dont think anyone has actually said that? can you quote it?
I have said repeatedly that Gors are not Tsons, because they are not, as for "this is how they fight" anyone that has said that is kinda right at the moment, we dont really have any fluff that shows them fighting with Tzaangors, beastmen, other gribblies sure, but not Tzaangors, they are a new old faction, they were forgotten about in 40k and now they have been brought back (thankfully).
Do you have any examples of them leading Tzaangors from the planet of the sorcerers?
ZebioLizard2 wrote: I think it's still odd that someone says "It's not Tsons if it's not all Rubrics!" When this is how Tsons actually fight.. It's Thousand Sons, they lead the Gors, it's their armies from the Planet of Sorcerers and not some random planets Tzeentch armies.
Just because it's not all walking rubric doesn't mean it's still not armies used by the THOUSAND SONS.
Some people just want power armour vs power armour slapping each other. I personally feel doing stuff like this makes chaos space marines more unique compared to their loyalist counterparts. It's also known that they have tzaangors on the planet of the sorcerers. In my eyes if they update EC and the only focus on noise marines I will be disappointed. I personally hope for gen-enhanced cultists considering the EC's focus on apothecaries and their sudden need to find psykers. I hope our apothecary is a blend of the two roles.
I hope they don't focus entirely on NOISE either, much as I love to drop the beat in my own armies, I mean EC has been reduced to Warbands mostly so we'll probably have some oddball stuff that's for sure.
I dont think anyone has actually said that? can you quote it?
I'm not talking about your quotes and I am referring to Thousand Son Sorcerer who I will quote below, and many times throughout this thread that I am surprised you missed all them.
"Never said the Army was ruined, said they were dead, read the title, and they are, they WERE an army which focused on bringing Automatons to win fights, and now they are going to be an army with a few automatons to support the Warflocks of Tzeentch, they should have called this codex Tzeentch Non-Daemonkin, not Thousand Sons."
I have said repeatedly that Gors are not Tsons, because they are not, as for "this is how they fight" anyone that has said that is kinda right at the moment, we dont really have any fluff that shows them fighting with Tzaangors, beastmen, other gribblies sure, but not Tzaangors, they are a new old faction, they were forgotten about in 40k and now they have been brought back (thankfully).
(and yes, I do take old fluff returned as similar) They used Gors in the Wrath of Magnus books, so yes. Beastmen mutants got shafted, we know this, but that's how the Realms of Chaos book (the best book for Chaos!) Had them as.
That they want to make the Chaos Armies unique rather then Chaosy Space Marines is the best thing in my opinion over just generally making more and more marines.
nevermind I have found the fluff for Tzaangors and Tsons, its almost non existent and nowhere does it even mention they take them off planet, post 2nd ed and the recent revival, they had literally been sqauted, so dont blame people for not knowing they existed once upon a time.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: I think it's still odd that someone says "It's not Tsons if it's not all Rubrics!" When this is how Tsons actually fight.. It's Thousand Sons, they lead the Gors, it's their armies from the Planet of Sorcerers and not some random planets Tzeentch armies.
Just because it's not all walking rubric doesn't mean it's still not armies used by the THOUSAND SONS.
Some people just want power armour vs power armour slapping each other. I personally feel doing stuff like this makes chaos space marines more unique compared to their loyalist counterparts. It's also known that they have tzaangors on the planet of the sorcerers. In my eyes if they update EC and the only focus on noise marines I will be disappointed. I personally hope for gen-enhanced cultists considering the EC's focus on apothecaries and their sudden need to find psykers. I hope our apothecary is a blend of the two roles.
I hope they don't focus entirely on NOISE either, much as I love to drop the beat in my own armies, I mean EC has been reduced to Warbands mostly so we'll probably have some oddball stuff that's for sure.
I dont think anyone has actually said that? can you quote it?
I'm not talking about your quotes and I am referring to Thousand Son Sorcerer who I will quote below, and many times throughout this thread that I am surprised you missed all them.
"Never said the Army was ruined, said they were dead, read the title, and they are, they WERE an army which focused on bringing Automatons to win fights, and now they are going to be an army with a few automatons to support the Warflocks of Tzeentch, they should have called this codex Tzeentch Non-Daemonkin, not Thousand Sons."
I have said repeatedly that Gors are not Tsons, because they are not, as for "this is how they fight" anyone that has said that is kinda right at the moment, we dont really have any fluff that shows them fighting with Tzaangors, beastmen, other gribblies sure, but not Tzaangors, they are a new old faction, they were forgotten about in 40k and now they have been brought back (thankfully).
(and yes, I do take old fluff returned as similar) They used Gors in the Wrath of Magnus books, so yes. Beastmen mutants got shafted, we know this, but that's how the Realms of Chaos book (the best book for Chaos!) Had them as.
That they want to make the Chaos Armies unique rather then Chaosy Space Marines is the best thing in my opinion over just generally making more and more marines.
That person is right, it would have made more sense to call it codex: Tzeench Deamonkin or something, but thats here nor there honestly.
With a bit of luck and the return of beastmen, we will get the other types in time, and hoping even more that in time it will basically be a lost and the damned type book that has all the different horrible gribblies, I would jump on that straight away, love me some beastmen!.
I do hope they'll eventually get some more weapon options in the future. I know they are intended to be "Rubric Chaff" but they are more expensive then the average chaff even if they are pretty decent in their own right.
If nothing else, some banners or equipment could be pretty good.
That person is right, it would have made more sense to call it codex: Tzeench Deamonkin or something, but thats here nor there honestly.
Well thats because you refuse to acknowledge that 30k isn't the same as 40k. TS in 40k is not a space marine legion, they dont have a recruitment program with geneseed, they dont have apothecaries/chaplains, They dont have a legion organizational structure or any of the other things that make a space marine legion a legion. Thousand sons are today a a group of warbands lead by sorcerers, these warbands are made up rubricae, tzaangors/mutants, cultists, chaos beasts or whatever else the sorcerer in question fancies. Claiming that because you have tzaangors it's not a TS codex is absurd in that context!
ZebioLizard2 wrote: I think it's still odd that someone says "It's not Tsons if it's not all Rubrics!" When this is how Tsons actually fight.. It's Thousand Sons, they lead the Gors, it's their armies from the Planet of Sorcerers and not some random planets Tzeentch armies.
Just because it's not all walking rubric doesn't mean it's still not armies used by the THOUSAND SONS.
NOBODY IS SAYING THAT. Jesus Christo. For the 100th time, people are upset that we now have MORE Tzaangor units than Thousand Sons Marines in the Thousand Sons codex. We finally got a codex. If we had even one new kit, that would have been fine. Something new. Either a coven of Sorcerers, or Rubric Devastators, or even Rubric fast attack on Discs. Something simple would have been fine! But no, we get ported over kits from AoS. It's extremely lazy and depressing. Good freaking lord. I'm going to copy and paste this every time someone claims the same thing you did.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Never said the Army was ruined, said they were dead, read the title, and they are, they WERE an army which focused on bringing Automatons to win fights, and now they are going to be an army with a few automatons to support the Warflocks of Tzeentch, they should have called this codex Tzeentch Non-Daemonkin, not Thousand Sons. Glad to see you agree with me though.
I don't agree with you at all. Unless GW badly mangles the points, this will be the most viable the Sons have been in decades, possibly ever. Even beyond that, you can still take Sorcs/Rubricae/Scarabs, nobody is forcing you to take non-marine units so you can focus your army on the dustbins if you so choose. Given the surety of your statement, you should be posting in the news and ruours thread since you've clearly got an early copy of the 'dex if you KNOW it's going to be so heavily biased towards the non-marine units.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: If they are a legion in name only why not get rid of them as a Legion? Plot armor is not a reason to keep something like that around, they could keep them in the fluff and squat the army. There not popular at all since GW is unwilling to spend money on new models for them.
Because the Sons are one of the perennial favourites of the 10 billion "which legion is your favourite" polls that have been held on the various 40k forums for years and there would be a riot if they tried? Not willing to spend money? We got 3 new sorcs (and a load of bits to make dozens of variations), a new Ahriman (on disk!) and he got his own trilogy and an assortment of short stories, redone Rubricae, our own termies, a freakin' primarch (all of which are fantastic models) and you say that GW doesn't want to spend money on them? Just how high are you? Plot armour isn't a reason to keep 'em, but their popularity and their suitability for making good villians definately is.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Yet there are other places where we violate the fluff, Like with Hellbrutes (no CSM to put in them), Daemon Engines in general (no access to warp smiths to build them), Vehicles which are supposed to be piloted by CSMs (again no access). If we went by fluff we would have Access to CSM and Warp Smiths we don't why not? That or we don't get Daemon Engines, Vehicles, no Helbrutes, we would have a 9 unit army which had almost as many spawn entries as TS entries.
Dreads could be pre-rubric and were dusted into it permanantly or even have been stolen salvaged from other legions/chapters via sorcery, the daemon engines can be traded with other forces on the unlikely chance that you can't make your own mechanical shell and have your various sorcs bind daemons into them and Vehicles can be piloted by anyone, they don't have to be marines, they could be daeamonically possessed or you can have pre-rubric vehicles that had their drivers dusted into their compartment. Given the fluff from the heresy, there were relatively few TS techmarines and those they did have probably got offed in the scuffle on Prospero. When your legion gets cut down from tens of thousands to ~1500 and then cut even further by the rubric, you're not going to have many specialists left, even less than you'd expect since the "normies" all got dusted and only the stronger psychers (who probably weren't techmarines or chaplains and such) remain, yeah, it's not super likely for you to have any techmarines left. Sure, you'll have some of the order of ruin, but I'd say much of it was replaced by sorcery and the stuff that wasn't probably got farmed out to the dark mechanicum.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Shaman, Enlightened, and Mutalith were announced on the Community page, Skyfires were confirmed on FB, assuming they do the logical thing and have all 3 new Tzaangor units access to Discs (which also breaks the fluff of Disks of Tzeentch being an Honored gift and being rare but hey it's what you want). This means we have a 4 to 3 ratio of Tzaangors and we will now have 2 variations of Spawn maybe we can get a flying version and an HQ Spawn you know more TS units.
So, you're assuming what we're going to get and complaining that the sky is falling about stuff that might not happen? Also, I never said I wanted disks to be common.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Of course you could, but here are a bunch of reasons why it makes no sense, Everything you said can be applied to SM and Libby dreads, why does the group that hates and tries to destroy psykers in all their forms, except the ones they think are okay, but even those are shunned. Which means OBJECTIVLY you are much more likely to have a Chaos Sorc Dread (Especially from a dying Legion) then a Libby Dread, or what do you think their SM brothers would think when that fething abomination gets put in a damn Dread.
Except the bit where the chaos marines don't have the same views on serving their chapter and if you put someone in a giant unstoppable killing machine that's nigh invulnerable to anything short of anti-tank weapons, especially if it has retained it's psycher abilities, it's not going to let you keep bossing it around. Therefore anyone in command isn't going to let their position as chief arse-kicker be taken by a near dead psycher. IIRC, the Sons were the ones who figured out how to preserve the ability of psychers to continue to cast their space magic after they'd been stuffed into a dread and shared it with all the other legions, but only the BA really thought it was a good idea. It's definately not out of the question that the Sons simply can't replicate that anymore now that the majority of their legion and support staff have been busy being dead for the last 10,000 years. The loyalists probably also don't have the ability to heal themselves and others from "He's-dead-Jim" back to "good-as-new" status with psychery and witchcraft like the biomancers of the Thousand Sons do either, so, again, another reason why it's fairly unlikely for them to have psychernaughts.
Don't get me wrong, I think a psychic dread would be cool, and sometimes that's all the justification you need, but you can't ignore that there are a bunch of fluff reasons that say why it hasn't happened. Yes, you can totally re-write the fluff and retcon stuff away, but everytime you do, you're losing something of their identity. Having the same toys as other legions/chapters doesn't give them something special or expand their identity away from spiky marines, it goes the opposite way. The Sons have always been the most different from the other legions, I just don't see why you want to make them the same when we have interesting, fluffy choices for the first time in forever. I used to hate seeing people posting about their "Thousand Son list" with 1 squad of 5 rubricae and then filled with stuff like oblits, raptors and bikers, but I could understand why they did it because the Sons couldn't remain fluffy and have in codex FA or non-vehicle HS choices. Now we can and I'd really encourage you to at least wait until we have some solid info from the leaks before deciding that the Sons are "dead". What if rubricae are 15 ppm, they get regular smite and everyone always re-rolls perils with a 1CP stratagem for +1 to wound for all bolt weapons? Would they still be "dead"?
Edit: Missed a Quote tag
There is really no reasons fluff-wise that Thousand Sons don't have a Psyker Dreadnought and only two Chapters do, which is Blood Angels and Grey Knights. And it's even more ridiculous how much more capable the Blood Angels one is compared to the latter.
And I agree fully with Formosa. This needed to be called Codex: Tzeentch. Not Daemons. Not Thousand Sons. Tzeentch. And I would have been fully 100% supportive of that and thrown my money at GW. In fact they should do that for all 4 gods.
NOBODY IS SAYING THAT. . Jesus Christo. For the 100th time, people are upset that we now have MORE Tzaangor units than Thousand Sons Marines in the Thousand Sons codex.
And I agree fully with Formosa. This needed to be called Codex: Tzeentch.
Yes, you can be fine with disliking that there's more Tzaangor infantry types then Rubric Marines, but calling it not-thousand sons because you don't feel that's how Thousand Sons fight is just.. yeah.
So what now, Rubric marines for everyone Tzeentch related along with the Tzaangors that come from the Planet of Sorcerers? I guess that's fine too, but I certainly can't be thrilled if Emperor's Children get's cut out because of something like this.
This topic at this point is basically going nowhere pretty much though.
Looks like a whole lot of spells spread out along all the sorcerers. Not sure why a Predator is in there. Looks like the Beast doesn't get spells. Looks like what I said was right all along: you've got an elite army with other units to fill the gaps. On the flip side you've got the Custodes who are a SUPER elite army that can only field a certain number of units due to their high cost and SUPER abilities.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Given Ahriman and Magnus have Dark Hereticus spells, the Daemon Prince has spells from the Daemon dex.. Did they get any new spells at all?
Also seems you can't even make a pure Tzaangor list, given that the shaman is an Elite.
Look closer, the Shaman has doombolt and the Scarab Occult Sorcerer and Aspiring Sorcerer have Temporal Manipulation and Glamour of Tzeentch respectively.
Let me reiterate that: the rubric sorcerers have spells known! An elegant solution to the smite problem existed and they actually took it, I can't believe it.
Backspacehacker wrote: Hahaha! Magnus still gets warp time get wrecked nerds
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tbh until I see the rules for tzengors, I'm thinking daemons will be a better ally for t sons
Well it's them or Cultists to fill out the detachment. The Shaman might get the same ability he gets in AoS to bring back dead Tzaangor when he kills things with his spell, which is a great ability for your screen. Tzaangors are also not slouches in close combat which makes them pretty good to absorb alpha strikes.
Another thing we learned from this list is that the "Daemon Prince of Tzeentch" is its own datasheet. I was wondering if they'd give us the same treatment they gave Death Guard because the "Daemon Prince of Nurgle" actually has its own model, but apparently we're getting the 4++ prince (and it looks like he has two spells, maybe???).
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Given Ahriman and Magnus have Dark Hereticus spells, the Daemon Prince has spells from the Daemon dex.. Did they get any new spells at all?
Also seems you can't even make a pure Tzaangor list, given that the shaman is an Elite.
Look closer, the Shaman has doombolt and the Scarab Occult Sorcerer and Aspiring Sorcerer have Temporal Manipulation and Glamour of Tzeentch respectively.
Let me reiterate that: the rubric sorcerers have spells known! An elegant solution to the smite problem existed and they actually took it, I can't believe it.
Unless they used a command point to switch out smite for a power.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Given Ahriman and Magnus have Dark Hereticus spells, the Daemon Prince has spells from the Daemon dex.. Did they get any new spells at all?
Also seems you can't even make a pure Tzaangor list, given that the shaman is an Elite.
Look closer, the Shaman has doombolt and the Scarab Occult Sorcerer and Aspiring Sorcerer have Temporal Manipulation and Glamour of Tzeentch respectively.
Let me reiterate that: the rubric sorcerers have spells known! An elegant solution to the smite problem existed and they actually took it, I can't believe it.
Unless they used a command point to switch out smite for a power.
That stratagem happens during the game, not before, so it would be silly to mark it off in the list.
I don't think Glamor of Tzeentch is a power. Look how they list it compared to how the list Ahriman/Magnus' multiple powers.
I think its some kind of equipment or special rule/upgrade.
It also brings into question exactly what "Temporal Manipulation" is. My guess is either a baby-power list for the scarab occults ala Runes of Battle, or some other kind of equipment/upgrade you can take instead of "Glamor of Tzeentch".
nintura wrote: It's a bow. Against power armor. There's everything wrong with that.
Too bad its not demon magic that doesn't give two gaks about what you consider realistic. Oh wait....
Except that it's not..... look at the models.
Lol.....so did you miss the part that Kharn in one of the novels LITERALLY says "oh....its 40'000 years into the future.....and we are still hitting each other with swords and axes? and using giant shields?.....We came so far we went backwards...."
Let alone the army and DAEMON GODS these guys come from...but no its the bows of course that break the immersion when they are riding giant daemon-spiked surfing discs :p
nintura wrote: It's a bow. Against power armor. There's everything wrong with that.
Too bad its not demon magic that doesn't give two gaks about what you consider realistic. Oh wait....
Except that it's not..... look at the models.
I did. Its being wielded by a magical blue birdman floating on magical floating disk, is blue and has swirly crap using magical arrows that are describe as being weakpoint seeking. Its totally magical.
nintura wrote: It's a bow. Against power armor. There's everything wrong with that. It's the year 40,000 for christ's sake. Has technology come to a complete halt?
Call it a power-bow. It works for axes, staves, spears, fists, claws and swords.
But at this point it looks like you just want to be angry about anything. So be it.
nintura wrote: It's a bow. Against power armor. There's everything wrong with that. It's the year 40,000 for christ's sake. Has technology come to a complete halt?
Did we forget about the Imperiums anti-psyker crossbolts? The Imperial Guards Swords (not anything else, those S3 sarges and commanders using full on swords?) The Knives of the space marines (that are basically gladius sized short-swords?)
Really, this is the complaint, this is long too late to be complaining about medieval technology still being used by the factions.
Yes. Totally MarySue. It's fething lazy.
A race of magical bird beasts that at one point may have been human are using ensorcelled bows that may be granted by a god of Sorcerers or their own sorcerers... Do you know what Mary Sue even means? Because there's nothing close to that in here.
Tachyon arrow is an arrow, using super science it firing a energy beam in the shape of an arrow.
Tzaangor arrow are guided by the changer of ways, maybe they look to the possible futures to see where the arrow needs to be fired to kill its target, maybe the arrow is cursed and ages the target by millions of years in seconds etc. Etc.
Formosa wrote: Tachyon arrow is an arrow, using super science it firing a energy beam in the shape of an arrow.
Tzaangor arrow are guided by the changer of ways, maybe they look to the possible futures to see where the arrow needs to be fired to kill its target, maybe the arrow is cursed and ages the target by millions of years in seconds etc. Etc.
Magic arrows are not hard to explain.
Do you know what a Tachyon is? Calling it an arrow is like calling a high powered laser a flashlight. They aren't even remotely the same thing.
The point is, it's lazy. The ONLY benefit to this is you can buy models for this and play them in AoS
Real powers on rubrics.
Yea, they saves the flop. the mere fact you can have several squads who each has a completely different tactical spell makes the pure-rubric list a not boring as feth thing-and that'e enough.
Do you know what a Tachyon is? Calling it an arrow is like calling a high powered laser a flashlight. They aren't even remotely the same thing.
The point is, it's lazy. The ONLY benefit to this is you can buy models for this and play them in AoS
God I KNOW, right? Inferno Bolters and Warp Flamers are so damned lazy, too! They just took the original weapon and added "sorcerous power" to them - ooooh so original GW!
Formosa wrote: Tachyon arrow is an arrow, using super science it firing a energy beam in the shape of an arrow.
Tzaangor arrow are guided by the changer of ways, maybe they look to the possible futures to see where the arrow needs to be fired to kill its target, maybe the arrow is cursed and ages the target by millions of years in seconds etc. Etc.
Magic arrows are not hard to explain.
Do you know what a Tachyon is? Calling it an arrow is like calling a high powered laser a flashlight. They aren't even remotely the same thing.
The point is, it's lazy. The ONLY benefit to this is you can buy models for this and play them in AoS
Yes I do, I said what it was, did you read it?
"Energy beam in the shape of an arrow"
It's a hyper advanced "science as magic" bit of technology, not all arrows are made of wood and steel lol
Yes it's a really good benefit I can use them in both, but claiming magic arrows fired by magic beings are "lazy and dumb" throws out soooooo much fantasy stuff it's easy to disregard, if you don't like it that's fine, but magic arrows are a fantasy trope that goes back a long way and 40k is a science fantasy setting, not a science fiction one.
Do you know what a Tachyon is? Calling it an arrow is like calling a high powered laser a flashlight. They aren't even remotely the same thing.
The point is, it's lazy. The ONLY benefit to this is you can buy models for this and play them in AoS
God I KNOW, right? Inferno Bolters and Warp Flamers are so damned lazy, too! They just took the original weapon and added "sorcerous power" to them - ooooh so original GW!
Formosa wrote: Tachyon arrow is an arrow, using super science it firing a energy beam in the shape of an arrow.
Tzaangor arrow are guided by the changer of ways, maybe they look to the possible futures to see where the arrow needs to be fired to kill its target, maybe the arrow is cursed and ages the target by millions of years in seconds etc. Etc.
Magic arrows are not hard to explain.
Do you know what a Tachyon is? Calling it an arrow is like calling a high powered laser a flashlight. They aren't even remotely the same thing.
The point is, it's lazy. The ONLY benefit to this is you can buy models for this and play them in AoS
Yes I do, I said what it was, did you read it?
"Energy beam in the shape of an arrow"
It's a hyper advanced "science as magic" bit of technology, not all arrows are made of wood and steel lol
Yes it's a really good benefit I can use them in both, but claiming magic arrows fired by magic beings are "lazy and dumb" throws out soooooo much fantasy stuff it's easy to disregard, if you don't like it that's fine, but magic arrows are a fantasy trope that goes back a long way and 40k is a science fantasy setting, not a science fiction one.
Actually in the 5th ed codex it was described as being a sliver of metal being fired at high enough speeds to pierce through a mountain. So more like a dart than an arrow.
Formosa wrote: Tachyon arrow is an arrow, using super science it firing a energy beam in the shape of an arrow.
Tzaangor arrow are guided by the changer of ways, maybe they look to the possible futures to see where the arrow needs to be fired to kill its target, maybe the arrow is cursed and ages the target by millions of years in seconds etc. Etc.
Magic arrows are not hard to explain.
Do you know what a Tachyon is? Calling it an arrow is like calling a high powered laser a flashlight. They aren't even remotely the same thing.
The point is, it's lazy. The ONLY benefit to this is you can buy models for this and play them in AoS
Yes I do, I said what it was, did you read it?
"Energy beam in the shape of an arrow"
It's a hyper advanced "science as magic" bit of technology, not all arrows are made of wood and steel lol
Yes it's a really good benefit I can use them in both, but claiming magic arrows fired by magic beings are "lazy and dumb" throws out soooooo much fantasy stuff it's easy to disregard, if you don't like it that's fine, but magic arrows are a fantasy trope that goes back a long way and 40k is a science fantasy setting, not a science fiction one.
Actually in the 5th ed codex it was described as being a sliver of metal being fired at high enough speeds to pierce through a mountain. So more like a dart than an arrow.
that's not even technically correct. It's a Tachyon. A particle that travels faster than the speed of light theoretically. Possibly through time. The speed and inertia alone would devastate a city.
Formosa wrote: Tachyon arrow is an arrow, using super science it firing a energy beam in the shape of an arrow.
Tzaangor arrow are guided by the changer of ways, maybe they look to the possible futures to see where the arrow needs to be fired to kill its target, maybe the arrow is cursed and ages the target by millions of years in seconds etc. Etc.
Magic arrows are not hard to explain.
Do you know what a Tachyon is? Calling it an arrow is like calling a high powered laser a flashlight. They aren't even remotely the same thing.
The point is, it's lazy. The ONLY benefit to this is you can buy models for this and play them in AoS
Yes I do, I said what it was, did you read it?
"Energy beam in the shape of an arrow"
It's a hyper advanced "science as magic" bit of technology, not all arrows are made of wood and steel lol
Yes it's a really good benefit I can use them in both, but claiming magic arrows fired by magic beings are "lazy and dumb" throws out soooooo much fantasy stuff it's easy to disregard, if you don't like it that's fine, but magic arrows are a fantasy trope that goes back a long way and 40k is a science fantasy setting, not a science fiction one.
Actually in the 5th ed codex it was described as being a sliver of metal being fired at high enough speeds to pierce through a mountain. So more like a dart than an arrow.
That makes it even better! We're walking about a mundane item that can fire through a mountain! From our stand point that's insane on the face of it, if a dart can pierce a mountain with über space science, why can't a magic arrow kill a person if super space armour.
Formosa wrote: Tachyon arrow is an arrow, using super science it firing a energy beam in the shape of an arrow.
Tzaangor arrow are guided by the changer of ways, maybe they look to the possible futures to see where the arrow needs to be fired to kill its target, maybe the arrow is cursed and ages the target by millions of years in seconds etc. Etc.
Magic arrows are not hard to explain.
Do you know what a Tachyon is? Calling it an arrow is like calling a high powered laser a flashlight. They aren't even remotely the same thing.
The point is, it's lazy. The ONLY benefit to this is you can buy models for this and play them in AoS
Yes I do, I said what it was, did you read it?
"Energy beam in the shape of an arrow"
It's a hyper advanced "science as magic" bit of technology, not all arrows are made of wood and steel lol
Yes it's a really good benefit I can use them in both, but claiming magic arrows fired by magic beings are "lazy and dumb" throws out soooooo much fantasy stuff it's easy to disregard, if you don't like it that's fine, but magic arrows are a fantasy trope that goes back a long way and 40k is a science fantasy setting, not a science fiction one.
Actually in the 5th ed codex it was described as being a sliver of metal being fired at high enough speeds to pierce through a mountain. So more like a dart than an arrow.
that's not even technically correct. It's a Tachyon. A particle that travels faster than the speed of light theoretically. Possibly through time. The speed and inertia alone would devastate a city.
That's what it says in the codex. If you have a complaint take it to Matt Ward. EDIT : Hold on, checking the wording. Maybe I misunderstood something.
Ok, its...weird. It actually says it transmutes a piece of metal into an unstoppable thunderbolt. Now, I thought it was a fancy was of saying that it goes really really fast, but apparently its a direct energy weapon, so...science I guess?
Formosa wrote: Tachyon arrow is an arrow, using super science it firing a energy beam in the shape of an arrow.
Tzaangor arrow are guided by the changer of ways, maybe they look to the possible futures to see where the arrow needs to be fired to kill its target, maybe the arrow is cursed and ages the target by millions of years in seconds etc. Etc.
Magic arrows are not hard to explain.
Do you know what a Tachyon is? Calling it an arrow is like calling a high powered laser a flashlight. They aren't even remotely the same thing.
The point is, it's lazy. The ONLY benefit to this is you can buy models for this and play them in AoS
Yes I do, I said what it was, did you read it?
"Energy beam in the shape of an arrow"
It's a hyper advanced "science as magic" bit of technology, not all arrows are made of wood and steel lol
Yes it's a really good benefit I can use them in both, but claiming magic arrows fired by magic beings are "lazy and dumb" throws out soooooo much fantasy stuff it's easy to disregard, if you don't like it that's fine, but magic arrows are a fantasy trope that goes back a long way and 40k is a science fantasy setting, not a science fiction one.
Actually in the 5th ed codex it was described as being a sliver of metal being fired at high enough speeds to pierce through a mountain. So more like a dart than an arrow.
That makes it even better! We're walking about a mundane item that can fire through a mountain! From our stand point that's insane on the face of it, if a dart can pierce a mountain with über space science, why can't a magic arrow kill a person if super space armour.
jesus. You're dense. it's not a mundane item. It's a technological gauss cannon millions of years in advancement of technology. The bullet doesn't matter, it's the gun that fires it. You see the Last Jedi? You know the part where they ram the ship at near light speed? It's mass x velocity. A piece of carrot going 500,000 miles per hour will go through a building. An EFP burning at 12,000k will melt a tank.
Man i always forget how important realism is in this setting where angry giants shoot themselves into planets so they can attack each other with chainsaws while riding motorcycles.
Formosa wrote: That makes it even better! We're walking about a mundane item that can fire through a mountain! From our stand point that's insane on the face of it, if a dart can pierce a mountain with über space science, why can't a magic arrow kill a person if super space armour.
Mundane as in magic. You have problem with Magnus using his psychic powers to level a titan? It's mere thought!
We are talking about warp given form. Not normal metallic arrow. More like arrow made out of pure warp energy.
Formosa wrote: Tachyon arrow is an arrow, using super science it firing a energy beam in the shape of an arrow.
Tzaangor arrow are guided by the changer of ways, maybe they look to the possible futures to see where the arrow needs to be fired to kill its target, maybe the arrow is cursed and ages the target by millions of years in seconds etc. Etc.
Magic arrows are not hard to explain.
Do you know what a Tachyon is? Calling it an arrow is like calling a high powered laser a flashlight. They aren't even remotely the same thing.
The point is, it's lazy. The ONLY benefit to this is you can buy models for this and play them in AoS
Yes I do, I said what it was, did you read it?
"Energy beam in the shape of an arrow"
It's a hyper advanced "science as magic" bit of technology, not all arrows are made of wood and steel lol
Yes it's a really good benefit I can use them in both, but claiming magic arrows fired by magic beings are "lazy and dumb" throws out soooooo much fantasy stuff it's easy to disregard, if you don't like it that's fine, but magic arrows are a fantasy trope that goes back a long way and 40k is a science fantasy setting, not a science fiction one.
Actually in the 5th ed codex it was described as being a sliver of metal being fired at high enough speeds to pierce through a mountain. So more like a dart than an arrow.
That makes it even better! We're walking about a mundane item that can fire through a mountain! From our stand point that's insane on the face of it, if a dart can pierce a mountain with über space science, why can't a magic arrow kill a person if super space armour.
jesus. You're dense. it's not a mundane item. It's a technological gauss cannon millions of years in advancement of technology. The bullet doesn't matter, it's the gun that fires it. You see the Last Jedi? You know the part where they ram the ship at near light speed? It's mass x velocity. A piece of carrot going 500,000 miles per hour will go through a building. An EFP burning at 12,000k will melt a tank.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahha, your calling me dense... hahahahhahahhahahahhaha, does the dart/arrow fire itself ? or is it propelled through a device? if its a device, then its an mundane Item, exactly like a little bit of mettle fired by a gauss, hahah calling me dense, your funny man
So it seems that the thousand sons get at least three all-new psychic powers (Glamor of Tzeentch, Temporal Distortion and Doombolt), and that the Aspiring Sorcerors and scarab sorcerors get access to them. Also, thousand sons get a deep strike stratagem letting you drop rubrics straight into double tap range.
Also, Tzaangor shaman is an elite, not an HQ, so no pure tzaangor armies. Its weird it almost seems like they're an auxiliary force and the main focus of the codex is on the thousand sons.
Formosa wrote: That makes it even better! We're walking about a mundane item that can fire through a mountain! From our stand point that's insane on the face of it, if a dart can pierce a mountain with über space science, why can't a magic arrow kill a person if super space armour.
Mundane as in magic. You have problem with Magnus using his psychic powers to level a titan? It's mere thought!
We are talking about warp given form. Not normal metallic arrow. More like arrow made out of pure warp energy.
Your talking to the wrong person buddy, I agree with you, its Nintara you want.
Formosa wrote: Tachyon arrow is an arrow, using super science it firing a energy beam in the shape of an arrow.
Tzaangor arrow are guided by the changer of ways, maybe they look to the possible futures to see where the arrow needs to be fired to kill its target, maybe the arrow is cursed and ages the target by millions of years in seconds etc. Etc.
Magic arrows are not hard to explain.
Do you know what a Tachyon is? Calling it an arrow is like calling a high powered laser a flashlight. They aren't even remotely the same thing.
The point is, it's lazy. The ONLY benefit to this is you can buy models for this and play them in AoS
Yes I do, I said what it was, did you read it?
"Energy beam in the shape of an arrow"
It's a hyper advanced "science as magic" bit of technology, not all arrows are made of wood and steel lol
Yes it's a really good benefit I can use them in both, but claiming magic arrows fired by magic beings are "lazy and dumb" throws out soooooo much fantasy stuff it's easy to disregard, if you don't like it that's fine, but magic arrows are a fantasy trope that goes back a long way and 40k is a science fantasy setting, not a science fiction one.
Actually in the 5th ed codex it was described as being a sliver of metal being fired at high enough speeds to pierce through a mountain. So more like a dart than an arrow.
That makes it even better! We're walking about a mundane item that can fire through a mountain! From our stand point that's insane on the face of it, if a dart can pierce a mountain with über space science, why can't a magic arrow kill a person if super space armour.
jesus. You're dense. it's not a mundane item. It's a technological gauss cannon millions of years in advancement of technology. The bullet doesn't matter, it's the gun that fires it. You see the Last Jedi? You know the part where they ram the ship at near light speed? It's mass x velocity. A piece of carrot going 500,000 miles per hour will go through a building. An EFP burning at 12,000k will melt a tank.
The arrows the tzaangor use are also not mundane items. They were made in the warp and are demonic.
It's a friggin bow. It's lazy. The whole thing is lazy and you're not going to convince me otherwise just because you use "magic" in it's description as a golden key excuse. Moving on.
Has anyone even seen any of the Rubric stuff do anything so far? Dont get the best reception at work so it's in and out. The only Psyker thing I've seen is Magnus. Anything confirmed about what the Mutalith does?
nintura wrote: It's a friggin bow. It's lazy. The whole thing is lazy and you're not going to convince me otherwise just because you use "magic" in it's description as a golden key excuse. Moving on.
Has anyone even seen any of the Rubric stuff do anything so far? Dont get the best reception at work so it's in and out. The only Psyker thing I've seen is Magnus. Anything confirmed about what the Mutalith does?
So guess it's lazy that Magnus can blow titan with a mere thought as well.
Or it's lazy that Gandalf snapped Saruman's staff from distance with but a word.
nintura wrote: It's a friggin bow. It's lazy. The whole thing is lazy and you're not going to convince me otherwise just because you use "magic" in it's description as a golden key excuse. Moving on.
Has anyone even seen any of the Rubric stuff do anything so far? Dont get the best reception at work so it's in and out. The only Psyker thing I've seen is Magnus. Anything confirmed about what the Mutalith does?
The Mutalith seems to have an array of buffs for friendly units, turn 1 was re-roll charges. I'm not sure if they're random or chosen.
nintura wrote: It's a friggin bow. It's lazy. The whole thing is lazy and you're not going to convince me otherwise just because you use "magic" in it's description as a golden key excuse. Moving on.
Has anyone even seen any of the Rubric stuff do anything so far? Dont get the best reception at work so it's in and out. The only Psyker thing I've seen is Magnus. Anything confirmed about what the Mutalith does?
So guess it's lazy that Magnus can blow titan with a mere thought as well.
Or it's lazy that Gandalf snapped Saruman's staff from distance with but a word.
Do you have any reading comp at all? Magnus is the most powerful Psyker to be in the universe. Psychic power is the next evolution in the empire. Lazy as in it's the same friggin model meaning we literally got nothing new but rules in this codex. THAT'S lazy. No upgrade sprue, nothing. THAT'S lazy.
nintura wrote: It's a friggin bow. It's lazy. The whole thing is lazy and you're not going to convince me otherwise just because you use "magic" in it's description as a golden key excuse. Moving on.
Has anyone even seen any of the Rubric stuff do anything so far? Dont get the best reception at work so it's in and out. The only Psyker thing I've seen is Magnus. Anything confirmed about what the Mutalith does?
The Mutalith seems to have an array of buffs for friendly units, turn 1 was re-roll charges. I'm not sure if they're random or chosen.
Really, really hope it's not random. I thought we talked about this last edition with chaos being everything randomly played.
nintura wrote: It's a friggin bow. It's lazy. The whole thing is lazy and you're not going to convince me otherwise just because you use "magic" in it's description as a golden key excuse. Moving on.
Has anyone even seen any of the Rubric stuff do anything so far? Dont get the best reception at work so it's in and out. The only Psyker thing I've seen is Magnus. Anything confirmed about what the Mutalith does?
So guess it's lazy that Magnus can blow titan with a mere thought as well.
Or it's lazy that Gandalf snapped Saruman's staff from distance with but a word.
Do you have any reading comp at all? Magnus is the most powerful Psyker to be in the universe. Psychic power is the next evolution in the empire. Lazy as in it's the same friggin model meaning we literally got nothing new but rules in this codex. THAT'S lazy. No upgrade sprue, nothing. THAT'S lazy.
nintura wrote: It's a friggin bow. It's lazy. The whole thing is lazy and you're not going to convince me otherwise just because you use "magic" in it's description as a golden key excuse. Moving on.
Has anyone even seen any of the Rubric stuff do anything so far? Dont get the best reception at work so it's in and out. The only Psyker thing I've seen is Magnus. Anything confirmed about what the Mutalith does?
The Mutalith seems to have an array of buffs for friendly units, turn 1 was re-roll charges. I'm not sure if they're random or chosen.
Really, really hope it's not random. I thought we talked about this last edition with chaos being everything randomly played.
nintura wrote: It's a friggin bow. It's lazy. The whole thing is lazy and you're not going to convince me otherwise just because you use "magic" in it's description as a golden key excuse. Moving on.
Has anyone even seen any of the Rubric stuff do anything so far? Dont get the best reception at work so it's in and out. The only Psyker thing I've seen is Magnus. Anything confirmed about what the Mutalith does?
The Mutalith seems to have an array of buffs for friendly units, turn 1 was re-roll charges. I'm not sure if they're random or chosen.
Do you have any reading comp at all? Magnus is the most powerful Psyker to be in the universe. Psychic power is the next evolution in the empire. Lazy as in it's the same friggin model meaning we literally got nothing new but rules in this codex. THAT'S lazy. No upgrade sprue, nothing. THAT'S lazy.
Daemons are stuff Magnus use to do those psychic tricks made manifest...That's precisely the point. They are shooting psychic bolts. Ie stuff Magnus shooting. But here's the funny thing: Magnus is mortal. Daemons are not. They are made of the stuff Magnus is controlling.
You don't think Bloodletters are wielding normal steel blades either?
nintura wrote: It's a friggin bow. It's lazy. The whole thing is lazy and you're not going to convince me otherwise just because you use "magic" in it's description as a golden key excuse. Moving on.
Has anyone even seen any of the Rubric stuff do anything so far? Dont get the best reception at work so it's in and out. The only Psyker thing I've seen is Magnus. Anything confirmed about what the Mutalith does?
The Mutalith seems to have an array of buffs for friendly units, turn 1 was re-roll charges. I'm not sure if they're random or chosen.
It'd be fun if it was "canticles for TS".
So did the rubrics do anything? I get home and check on the stream and everything is dead.
nintura wrote: It's a friggin bow. It's lazy. The whole thing is lazy and you're not going to convince me otherwise just because you use "magic" in it's description as a golden key excuse. Moving on.
Has anyone even seen any of the Rubric stuff do anything so far? Dont get the best reception at work so it's in and out. The only Psyker thing I've seen is Magnus. Anything confirmed about what the Mutalith does?
The Mutalith seems to have an array of buffs for friendly units, turn 1 was re-roll charges. I'm not sure if they're random or chosen.
It'd be fun if it was "canticles for TS".
So did the rubrics do anything? I get home and check on the stream and everything is dead.
From the Adeptus Codex thread
Alendrel wrote: Final is 7-3 1K Sons, AC just couldn't get on enough objectives.
GAME NOTES
1K Sons codex coming soon/quickly but can’t say exactly when. Being very cagey about 1K Sons info beyond what’s directly relevant to the game. 1K Sons Codex explains why/how they have Hellbrutes
Commentator says all three bikes have salvo launchers (posted list had two with launchers, one with hurricane bolters) – List confirmed as correct
Magnus WT: Knows an additional psychic power (4 total)
Cultists and Predator only units in list being played with no invul
Misaercordiae is confirmed as an extra attack with it in addition to bearer’s attacks with main weapon
Magnus confirmed still LoW, not HQ as shown on the WHC army list
1K Son Stratagem for a Webway deep strike
Tzaangor blades are -1 AP, taken in lieu of pistols. Tzaangor brayhorns +1 to charge
Mutalith regens 1W a turn, on flyer size base (no flight stand though), grants bonuses to army, can explode when killed. Wounded Mutalith is S7 A4. Mutalith has a table of powers it can use/roll on each turn. One is reroll charges.
Tzaangor have Death to False Emperor
Rubrics and Scarabs have access to spells beyond Smite
Jetbikes have 4W, 80 points before weapons, squad size 3-10
Legion Trait is +6” to spell range
Spell: target unit is -1 to hit
Spell: caster gets a free reroll
Magnus’s invul cannot rerolled
Death Hex – 8+ to cast, target unit loses invuls
Tzaangor Shaman casting Doombolt, does damage and halves M. Tzaangor Shaman can reroll its first failed cast in the game. Sounds like may have access to the daemon Tzeentch discipline? Could be entirely off base.
Dark Matter Crystal – 1K Sons relic that picks a unit up and redploys it via Deep Strike, one use
Vexilla Teleport Homer Stratagem (?CP) – Deep striking unit can arrive within X” of vexilla and is limited to only having to be more than 3” from enemy. Just used it to drop Trajaan down next to Magnus
AC Termies are confirmed as having deep strike built in, have the 5++ from Aegis, not a 4++ base. Armor grants the extra W and native Deep Strike
1K Sons Stratagem to improve psychic test(s) – no details
Vexillus Praetor 5W, or 6W in Allarus armor
Tzaangor Enlightened have 3 equipment options, fatecaster greatbows (D2 looks like) and two others to be revealed later. Max Size 9. “Very fast”, compared them to Windrunners
Veterans of the Long War is in for 1K Sons
AC Stratagem: Unflinching (?CP) – Overwatch on 5+
Custodian Guard can go up to 10, Misercordiaers are optional and can be taken even with sentinel sword + shield
Castellan axes have the same shooting profile as guardian spears
The dark matter crystal works just like the veil of darkness, it only works on units that are already on the table. Not terribly useful to a guy like magnus who can zip across the board on his own already. A plodding squad of rubric marines, on the other hand...
Arachnofiend wrote: The dark matter crystal works just like the veil of darkness, it only works on units that are already on the table. Not terribly useful to a guy like magnus who can zip across the board on his own already. A plodding squad of rubric marines, on the other hand...
true unless you were to use it, put him 9" away from something warp time him into combat turn one in hammer and anvil even.
Arachnofiend wrote: The dark matter crystal works just like the veil of darkness, it only works on units that are already on the table. Not terribly useful to a guy like magnus who can zip across the board on his own already. A plodding squad of rubric marines, on the other hand...
true unless you were to use it, put him 9" away from something warp time him into combat turn one in hammer and anvil even.
Arachnofiend wrote: The dark matter crystal works just like the veil of darkness, it only works on units that are already on the table. Not terribly useful to a guy like magnus who can zip across the board on his own already. A plodding squad of rubric marines, on the other hand...
true unless you were to use it, put him 9" away from something warp time him into combat turn one in hammer and anvil even.
Or you move 18" warptime 18" then assault.
Pfffft and have to worry about over watch!? Pfft taking over watch is for the pleblians
Gents to add something here this is the notes set I took for what part of the battle report that I saw;
Magnus warlord trait is "know an additional power" he is still a Lord of War, he DOES NOT have the "re roll 1's" invulnerable aura.
Mutalith has an Invul save, it has 14 wounds, it has identical regen to daemon engines (regain 1 wound a turn), it assists units around it rolled for during the shooting phase on a random table, the table has either 3 or 6 possible outcomes (didint hear which) and re-roll assault rolls is one such outcome. The buffs are given within a certain aura.
Rubrics and Scarab Occult both gain access to spells on the aspirings, no telling if its "any" spell, or just the Tzeentch lore table.
Tzaangors now have Death to the False Emperor AND can be up to units of 40, I read that a unit of 20+ gain +1 to the "to hit" rolls.
The Legion Tactic first part is "every spell gains +6 inchs to its range" which for many spells is quite useful, due to context clues and information from the twitch casters I am under the impression it is a 2 part trait, cultists were used in the game and someone asked about the legion trait benefiting Cutlists, and one of the hosts said "oh yeah they will really benefit from being thousand sons!" or something akin to it.
Glamour of tzeentch is a new spell, -1 to hit a thousand sons unit (makes sense why they nerfed changeling now)
Doombolt is a high cast value, deals D3 mortals, AND next turn you halve the distance of the unit hit by it that is moving
Fate-caster great bows hits on 6's Negate wound roll and automatically go to damage step. SPECIFICALLY *NOT* mortal wounds, I have heard different values for Damage, one being straight 3, the other being D3 per. same with number of shots, someone mentioned D3 assault per guy (makes enough sense assault per) but we know its more then 1 per model.
The Vets of the Long war is confirmed! (YAY!)
A "deepstrike" relic is confirmed, break the relic and pic a unit within a short distance of the caster, immediately re-deepstrike that unit.
There is also a deepstrike strategem for thousand sons pre-game nominate a unit for 2 cp and they may deepstrike.
Please add or use wherever needed for this information! Fix or add to as necessary!
Arachnofiend wrote: The dark matter crystal works just like the veil of darkness, it only works on units that are already on the table. Not terribly useful to a guy like magnus who can zip across the board on his own already. A plodding squad of rubric marines, on the other hand...
it could be a game winner. which in the streamed game, was
Poor old Thousand Sons Sorcerer had to bow out of this thread in shame for being proven so hilariously, utterly wrong Lesson learned; don't spout predictions as facts and don't be overwhelmingly negative with no evidence to back up your claims!
They've pretty much given us what many in here believed wouldn't happen, i.e. Aspiring Sorcerers and Scarab Occult Sorcerers gaining access to powers other than Smite which pretty much completely fixes them, not one but two ways to Deep Strike/teleport which in conjunction with Deep Striking Chaos Daemons will give Tzeentch players one of the meaner alpha strikes in the game, a legion trait that's actually pretty darned useful, etc.
Some oddities though that I'm really curious about now;
1) Magnus can't re-roll saves anymore, but presumably kept his re-roll 1s for to-hit rolls aura. Question; what does that mean for Ahriman and Exalted Sorcerers? Do they now give re-roll 1s to-hit like Magnus, or do they not provide any auras at all? EDIT: Sounds like Magnus didn't lose his aura but rather just can't re-roll saves himself. We'll see.
2) The wording of the Skyfire 6s to-hit rule is weird, if someone watched the game I'd appreciate some clarification on it. 6s to-hit bypass the to-wound roll and go straight to the Damage roll, does that mean they bypass saves or is that report just worded incorrectly? As they aren't mortal wounds, presumably they still allow saves but just give you easier wounds similar to how Warhammer Fantasy poison used to work.
3) Do you have to roll each turn for the Mutalith aura, or is it similar to some other abilities where once you've rolled you can keep the same aura until you want to re-roll it?
Other than that.....I'm happy as larry. I think people in here really need to think about the implications of Deep Striking Pink Horrors and a massive blob of Tzaangors (who can apparently go up to 40 models now?) in tandem, either simultaneously or one after the other. The Horrors will clear out infantry bubble wrap with ease provided you have a Herald supporting them, then the Tzaangors can surge forward with Warptime (which with the +6" range should be easy to get on them) and charge in. Buff them up with Weaver of Fates and other powers to taste and that's one hell of an alpha strike; less damage to bigger targets than Bloodletters, but they are much tougher to get rid of and their hitting power doesn't drop that much whereas Bloodletters tend to do all their damage in one round. Hell, teleport Rubric Marines with Warpflamers up, Warptime them forward and pop Veterans of the Long War for some absolute carnage!
Exciting times!
Some tidbits as well based on some of the "predictions" we had in here;
Prediction: Tzaangors can't get +1 to-hit.
Reality: Tzaangors apparently get +1 to-hit in units of 20 or more, and some are saying they even go up to units of 40.
Prediction: Aspiring/Scarab Occult Sorcerers won't get new powers.
Reality: They get access to at least the new Thousand Sons discipline.
Prediction: Thousand Sons will easily get steam-rolled in the game.
Reality: Thousand Sons won handily on objectives.
Prediction: Tzaangors will lack the Thousand Sons keyword.
Reality: They have it. Duh.
Prediction: Thousand Sons will either lose Dark Hereticus or keep it but not get a new discipline.
Reality: They have access to at least two disciplines, possibly three.
Prediction: Thousand Sons are dead.
Reality: Stupidest thread I've read in a while.
Caederes wrote: Poor old Thousand Sons Sorcerer had to bow out of this thread in shame for being proven so hilariously, utterly wrong Lesson learned; don't spout predictions as facts and don't be overwhelmingly negative with no evidence to back up your claims!
They've pretty much given us what many in here believed wouldn't happen, i.e. Aspiring Sorcerers and Scarab Occult Sorcerers gaining access to powers other than Smite which pretty much completely fixes them, not one but two ways to Deep Strike/teleport which in conjunction with Deep Striking Chaos Daemons will give Tzeentch players one of the meaner alpha strikes in the game, a legion trait that's actually pretty darned useful, etc.
Some oddities though that I'm really curious about now;
1) Magnus can't re-roll saves anymore, but presumably kept his re-roll 1s for to-hit rolls aura. Question; what does that mean for Ahriman and Exalted Sorcerers? Do they now give re-roll 1s to-hit like Magnus, or do they not provide any auras at all? EDIT: Sounds like Magnus didn't lose his aura but rather just can't re-roll saves himself. We'll see.
2) The wording of the Skyfire 6s to-hit rule is weird, if someone watched the game I'd appreciate some clarification on it. 6s to-hit bypass the to-wound roll and go straight to the Damage roll, does that mean they bypass saves or is that report just worded incorrectly? As they aren't mortal wounds, presumably they still allow saves but just give you easier wounds similar to how Warhammer Fantasy poison used to work.
3) Do you have to roll each turn for the Mutalith aura, or is it similar to some other abilities where once you've rolled you can keep the same aura until you want to re-roll it?
Other than that.....I'm happy as larry. I think people in here really need to think about the implications of Deep Striking Pink Horrors and a massive blob of Tzaangors (who can apparently go up to 40 models now?) in tandem, either simultaneously or one after the other. The Horrors will clear out infantry bubble wrap with ease provided you have a Herald supporting them, then the Tzaangors can surge forward with Warptime (which with the +6" range should be easy to get on them) and charge in. Buff them up with Weaver of Fates and other powers to taste and that's one hell of an alpha strike; less damage to bigger targets than Bloodletters, but they are much tougher to get rid of and their hitting power doesn't drop that much whereas Bloodletters tend to do all their damage in one round.
Exciting times!
Oh, by the way, because I just had to...
PREDICTIONS VS REALITY (according to reports)
Predictions are by those who couldn't accept that maybe we'd get some good stuff.
Prediction: Tzaangors can't get +1 to-hit.
Reality: Tzaangors get +1 to-hit in units of 20 or more.
Prediction: Aspiring/Scarab Occult Sorcerers won't get new powers.
Reality: They get access to at least the new Thousand Sons discipline.
Prediction: Thousand Sons will easily get steam-rolled in the game.
Reality: Thousand Sons won handily on objectives.
Prediction: Tzaangors will lack the Thousand Sons keyword.
Reality: Are you serious?
Prediction: Thousand Sons will either lose Dark Hereticus or keep it but not get a new discipline.
Reality: They have access to at least two disciplines, possibly three.
Prediction: Thousand Sons are dead.
Reality: Stupidest thread I've read in a while.
About point 2) the commentators said that 6s to hit were guarenteed damage, but they specified they were not mortal wounds. My guess would be that the weapon damage will be greater than 1 or d3 but overkill won't spill over to other models in the unit like a mortal wound.
Those sound really great! As a Death Guard player I am looking forward to seeing the Thousand Sons come back in my area. We have alot of Tzeench daemons already. Played a match of DG and TS back in 6th edition and it goes down as my favorite game ever played... Even for 6th edition.
I copied the army list the Thousand Sons player used today into Battlescribe, minus the units that don't exist yet, and the points total was 1592. Basically, barring any points changes, the remaining 408 points were spent on the 9 Enlightened with Greatbows, the Mutalith and the Shaman.
Given that the Mutalith is a 14 wound regenerating monster with an invulnerable save that buffs nearby units and apparently has pretty decent melee stats (when wounded it was Strength 7 Attacks 4) I'd say that would probably be in the 150-200+ range.
The Enlightened with bows sound really nasty and presumably will have 2 wounds each at minimum, so 9 of them will probably cost a fair penny too - probably in the 200+ range.
The Shaman can cast one spell a turn but is functionally a psyker on a disk, even Heralds of Tzeentch on disks aren't all that cheap so I'm guessing the Shaman will probably be around the 100ish mark.
Conclusion; I'd say it's a fair bet we are getting points drops, that or the new stuff is under-costed based on what I expect given what they are apparently capable of. I don't see the Daemon Prince, Cultists and Predator getting points drops whatsoever, meaning any points drops we did get based on that list are tied to Ahriman, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult and Magnus. Seems like a safe bet!
I copied the army list the Thousand Sons player used today into Battlescribe, minus the units that don't exist yet, and the points total was 1592. Basically, barring any points changes, the remaining 408 points were spent on the 9 Enlightened with Greatbows, the Mutalith and the Shaman.
Given that the Mutalith is a 14 wound regenerating monster with an invulnerable save that buffs nearby units and apparently has pretty decent melee stats (when wounded it was Strength 7 Attacks 4) I'd say that would probably be in the 150-200+ range.
The Enlightened with bows sound really nasty and presumably will have 2 wounds each at minimum, so 9 of them will probably cost a fair penny too - probably in the 200+ range.
The Shaman can cast one spell a turn but is functionally a psyker on a disk, even Heralds of Tzeentch on disks aren't all that cheap so I'm guessing the Shaman will probably be around the 100ish mark.
Conclusion; I'd say it's a fair bet we are getting points drops, that or the new stuff is under-costed based on what I expect given what they are apparently capable of. I don't see the Daemon Prince, Cultists and Predator getting points drops whatsoever, meaning any points drops we did get based on that list are tied to Ahriman, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult and Magnus. Seems like a safe bet!
Or they have 1 wound and cost 11 PPM to prevent people from spamming them and casting prescience on them every turn.
Or they have 1 wound and cost 11 PPM to prevent people from spamming them and casting prescience on them every turn.
So an army trying out the new stuff, getting a win and showcasing big buffs our psykers get is proof that Thousand Sons are dead according to you? Can you finally accept that the entire premise of this thread was incredibly stupid?
Also, thanks for showcasing yet again that your grasp on reality is taking second place to your bias. Disk-riding models are pretty much guaranteed to have 2 wounds each. At 11 PPM they'd be absurdly under-priced for their theoretical damage output, so I don't get what point you're trying to make. Or are you being sarcastic? I don't care. The reality is, it looks like our main units are getting points drops. I'm sorry that doesn't fit your "Rubrics will be trash" narrative, especially as the main change they needed - having a useful squad leader - actually happened.
Thousand Son Sorcerer; Its okay to be wrong! we forgive you <3
Hope is the first step on the road to an AWESOME CODEX
Side note; What is wrong with you? judging by the list design I wont even need Tzaangors if I dont want them, 20-30 some odd Rubrics, couple of nice Deep-strike drops, bunch of spellcasters, if you want some chaff you can toss in cultist if you hate goats that much.
That and the Mutalith looks like it has good support options if we are getting a 6 or 3 choice list from it.
Just give up, give in to the awesome, and enjoy the army you claim to love just for once. okay?
He is kinda right regarding that list, it's 11 thousand sons models and 40 tzaangors, but that doesn't mean you can't take 11 tzaangors and 40 thousand sons instead if we get a good price drop.
never said the codex was dead, never thought it would be, did think it would be bland and boring and follow the usual theme of the 8th books so far, just waiting and seeing for now.
I have to agree with him, that list didn't seem any more 1ksons than a daemon list with Magnus does(slight exaggeration for fun). They got lazy with the AoS stuff.
This doesn't mean that it won't be a successful codex, or that it won't have awesome stuff to make it more legion focused, but that specific battle force did not counter his concerns.
The gold Marines, who are specifically called out for being a small expensive force, actually had more Marines on the table..hah!
The Sentinel wrote: If I remember correctly they said on the stream the TS list was 1996 points. I don't remember the exact number but it was really close to 2k
You'll probably need a rubric-heavy list if you want to take full advantage of the huge number of spells we get. The Shaman will probably be somewhere around 100 points which means we still don't have a primaris psyker equivalent, if you want to use all those spells without flooding your list with inefficient HQ choices you'll need to fill up on aspiring sorcerers.
Looked perfectly fine to me. 40 tzaangors for 13 tsons (as all the HQ choices are thousand sons, even the generic daemon prince is hypothetically a former marine who ascended) seems perfectly reasonable.
I really don't get why people are upset about getting a functional lore friendly army with lots of diversity. 30K is absolutely still an option for anyone who wants to just play marines on top of more marines.
SilverAlien wrote: Looked perfectly fine to me. 40 tzaangors for 13 tsons (as all the HQ choices are thousand sons, even the generic daemon prince is hypothetically a former marine who ascended) seems perfectly reasonable.
I really don't get why people are upset about getting a functional lore friendly army with lots of diversity. 30K is absolutely still an option for anyone who wants to just play marines on top of more marines.
while there where 40 Tzaangors in the army, the bulk of that was a single 30 man unit. rather then men on the field one should ask unit types. so if you have 1 30 man tzaanagor unit, 2 squads of rubric marines a scarb occult, and a sorc. sure you on paper have more tzaagors but you have 4 marine UNITS vs 1 Gor unit.
I don't care if we get new units what I care about is either giving us BETTER rules or reducing rubric pt cost. After seeing the ridiculous abilities and weapon armory and power of the death-guard codex, rubrics just seem like such a laughing stock of a joke. We have the single most expensive Troop units in the game that STILL cannot shoot anything below or above their weight class, they kept their pt cost relatively the same AND took away AP, and their all is dust rule is erelavant because anyone shooting at rubrics or scarabs is NOT going to be shooting damage 1 weapons at them, as a veteran thousand sons player I feel cheated forever now. But wait just like the last little codex entry for them in 7th edition this new "Codex" for them is most likely going to CENTER AROUND DAEMONS with 1ksons being a filler background note. My apologies for seeming like a ranting lunatic but my god I cannot find anyone in my gaming community that doesn't praise 1ksons as the most broken OP faction in the game and yet out right refuses to play them when I tell them to prove it.
Great news on having more variety in the psychic phase and Aspiring Sorcerers getting more options than Smite-Lite.
I'm actually feeling a bit enthusiastic about finishing off my TS army that I've been ignoring since 8th Ed dropped. I even have a box of Tzaangor Enlightened I bought to steal the discs for sorcerers. I may have to rethink that...
Or they have 1 wound and cost 11 PPM to prevent people from spamming them and casting prescience on them every turn.
So an army trying out the new stuff, getting a win and showcasing big buffs our psykers get is proof that Thousand Sons are dead according to you? Can you finally accept that the entire premise of this thread was incredibly stupid?
Also, thanks for showcasing yet again that your grasp on reality is taking second place to your bias. Disk-riding models are pretty much guaranteed to have 2 wounds each. At 11 PPM they'd be absurdly under-priced for their theoretical damage output, so I don't get what point you're trying to make. Or are you being sarcastic? I don't care. The reality is, it looks like our main units are getting points drops. I'm sorry that doesn't fit your "Rubrics will be trash" narrative, especially as the main change they needed - having a useful squad leader - actually happened.
I love how people like you are allowed to throw insults and tell people to get bent, and not receive any warnings. But people who try to defend themselves or get mad because they were insulted and reply in kind get warnings.
It's also hilarious that you claim this means you were correct yet the next 3 or 4 posts agree with the op.
Malal42 wrote: I don't care if we get new units what I care about is either giving us BETTER rules or reducing rubric pt cost. After seeing the ridiculous abilities and weapon armory and power of the death-guard codex, rubrics just seem like such a laughing stock of a joke. We have the single most expensive Troop units in the game that STILL cannot shoot anything below or above their weight class, they kept their pt cost relatively the same AND took away AP, and their all is dust rule is erelavant because anyone shooting at rubrics or scarabs is NOT going to be shooting damage 1 weapons at them, as a veteran thousand sons player I feel cheated forever now. But wait just like the last little codex entry for them in 7th edition this new "Codex" for them is most likely going to CENTER AROUND DAEMONS with 1ksons being a filler background note. My apologies for seeming like a ranting lunatic but my god I cannot find anyone in my gaming community that doesn't praise 1ksons as the most broken OP faction in the game and yet out right refuses to play them when I tell them to prove it.
Everything we have seen previewed here so far indicates that Rubrics are going to be in a better spot post codex than they are now. Even assuming that there are zero points changes and that all aspiring sorcs are going to still be slinging mini-smites:
1) Aspiring sorcs all get spells, at least from the new Tsons-specific discipline if not also Dark Hereticus, and they get 6" extra casting range on them. This changes the sorc from total deadweight back to a very compelling reason to take the squad. the "2 5-man rubric squad in a rhino" configuration gets a big boost with this.
2) We now have a copy of the Necron relic from chapter approved. One of the biggest weaknesses of having a large rubric squad, getting tied up in melee and not being able to shoot, gets mitigated with this relic. Pick up the bearer and the rubric squad at the beginning of the turn, and deep strike them back down, and they get to shoot again.
3) we get a deep strike stratagem, another solid incentive to run big rubric squads. They drop straight into double tap range and the aspiring sorceror comes with one of the new spells to cast as soon as they come down (say, the -1 to hit spell making them more durable)
4) we will almost certainly get the changes rubrics got in the CSM codex on our troopbrics as well even if we don't see any other buffs. The big one there is a soulreaper being available on just a 5-man squad, letting you make the most of the shooting turn you get hopping out of your rhino.
Even if you just say "aspiring sorcerors get powers again, and we have 6-12 additional powers available to choose from" a rubric focused traditional Tsons list is in a far better spot and theres far more reason to be taking rubric squads. Do I hope we get additional points drops? Yeah, I think the basic bodies are too expensive. Do I think the codex is going to be focused on daemons? ....no? Unless you count Magnus, there were no daemons in the battle report at all.
Backspacehacker wrote: Was about to say, the fact rubrics and occult got full powers again is kinda big deal.
Especially if the Sons get a stratagem similar to the Chaos Familiar in the CSM codex (which I'm sure they will). With the apparently-huge number of spells the Sons will have access to, a stratagem like that means that you're almost never stuck in a situation where you won't have a useful spell on-tap.
After this, the Tzeentch Arcanites battleforce will likely be sold through in a matter of weeks. Everything but the Acolytes are useable in 40k now, and even those could be used as cultists.
I copied the army list the Thousand Sons player used today into Battlescribe, minus the units that don't exist yet, and the points total was 1592. Basically, barring any points changes, the remaining 408 points were spent on the 9 Enlightened with Greatbows, the Mutalith and the Shaman.
Given that the Mutalith is a 14 wound regenerating monster with an invulnerable save that buffs nearby units and apparently has pretty decent melee stats (when wounded it was Strength 7 Attacks 4) I'd say that would probably be in the 150-200+ range.
The Enlightened with bows sound really nasty and presumably will have 2 wounds each at minimum, so 9 of them will probably cost a fair penny too - probably in the 200+ range.
The Shaman can cast one spell a turn but is functionally a psyker on a disk, even Heralds of Tzeentch on disks aren't all that cheap so I'm guessing the Shaman will probably be around the 100ish mark.
Conclusion; I'd say it's a fair bet we are getting points drops, that or the new stuff is under-costed based on what I expect given what they are apparently capable of. I don't see the Daemon Prince, Cultists and Predator getting points drops whatsoever, meaning any points drops we did get based on that list are tied to Ahriman, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult and Magnus. Seems like a safe bet!
Thanks for taking the time to do this, I was thinking the same thing once I knew how much the list was. I agree and think it is 99% that there will be some kind of point drop for rubrics and SoT. I think the point drop will be not paying for the Aspiring Sorcerer, and maybe rubrics getting a point or two cheaper. Also, consider that it is possible that magnus/Arhiman could be more expensive depending if they improved Arhiman's staff and opponents have been asking for a Magnus point increase for a while. So I think it is even more likely that there is a point drop for some units, or the new stuff is criminally cheap
Thousand Sons has always been an army that avoided mutations at all costs. Ahrimans Rubric was to prevent the mutations from occurring on the surviving thousand Sons members. Ahriman even kills one Marine when he mutates a bit and seems to enjoy it.
Probably why Ahriman used to be the TS's archenemy No. uno, even before Space Wolves and all the rest.
I copied the army list the Thousand Sons player used today into Battlescribe, minus the units that don't exist yet, and the points total was 1592. Basically, barring any points changes, the remaining 408 points were spent on the 9 Enlightened with Greatbows, the Mutalith and the Shaman.
Given that the Mutalith is a 14 wound regenerating monster with an invulnerable save that buffs nearby units and apparently has pretty decent melee stats (when wounded it was Strength 7 Attacks 4) I'd say that would probably be in the 150-200+ range.
The Enlightened with bows sound really nasty and presumably will have 2 wounds each at minimum, so 9 of them will probably cost a fair penny too - probably in the 200+ range.
The Shaman can cast one spell a turn but is functionally a psyker on a disk, even Heralds of Tzeentch on disks aren't all that cheap so I'm guessing the Shaman will probably be around the 100ish mark.
Conclusion; I'd say it's a fair bet we are getting points drops, that or the new stuff is under-costed based on what I expect given what they are apparently capable of. I don't see the Daemon Prince, Cultists and Predator getting points drops whatsoever, meaning any points drops we did get based on that list are tied to Ahriman, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult and Magnus. Seems like a safe bet!
Thanks for taking the time to do this, I was thinking the same thing once I knew how much the list was. I agree and think it is 99% that there will be some kind of point drop for rubrics and SoT. I think the point drop will be not paying for the Aspiring Sorcerer, and maybe rubrics getting a point or two cheaper. Also, consider that it is possible that magnus/Arhiman could be more expensive depending if they improved Arhiman's staff and opponents have been asking for a Magnus point increase for a while. So I think it is even more likely that there is a point drop for some units, or the new stuff is criminally cheap
It's unlikely they make Magnus more expensive, I think. They already nerfed him big time by taking away his invuln reroll.
I copied the army list the Thousand Sons player used today into Battlescribe, minus the units that don't exist yet, and the points total was 1592. Basically, barring any points changes, the remaining 408 points were spent on the 9 Enlightened with Greatbows, the Mutalith and the Shaman.
Given that the Mutalith is a 14 wound regenerating monster with an invulnerable save that buffs nearby units and apparently has pretty decent melee stats (when wounded it was Strength 7 Attacks 4) I'd say that would probably be in the 150-200+ range.
The Enlightened with bows sound really nasty and presumably will have 2 wounds each at minimum, so 9 of them will probably cost a fair penny too - probably in the 200+ range.
The Shaman can cast one spell a turn but is functionally a psyker on a disk, even Heralds of Tzeentch on disks aren't all that cheap so I'm guessing the Shaman will probably be around the 100ish mark.
Conclusion; I'd say it's a fair bet we are getting points drops, that or the new stuff is under-costed based on what I expect given what they are apparently capable of. I don't see the Daemon Prince, Cultists and Predator getting points drops whatsoever, meaning any points drops we did get based on that list are tied to Ahriman, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult and Magnus. Seems like a safe bet!
Mutalith does NOT have an invul this was specifically mentioned in the stream.
From the stream Storm bolter from Land Raider shoots at Enlightened, hits with 4 wounds with 3, 3 dice from saves were 4, 1, and 6, 2 models removed they have 1 wound. Why would they have 2 anyways? Discs don't add a wound to anyone else, why would the Tzaangors be special?
agreed that the Shaman will probably cost around 100 points.
Mutalith is probably 150-175
Shaman is probably 100
Enlightened are probably 12-14 PPM (108-126 points)
They have said Skyfires have 3 weapons options. I doubt they are gonna release a upgrade sprue, so maybe they'll have the option to use the basic weapon sprue that already exist? Pistol+CS.
From the stream Storm bolter from Land Raider shoots at Enlightened, hits with 4 wounds with 3, 3 dice from saves were 4, 1, and 6, 2 models removed they have 1 wound. Why would they have 2 anyways? Discs don't add a wound to anyone else, why would the Tzaangors be special?
Which is really strange as AoS has them at 4 wounds, which is why people thought they might be.. Actually durable.
Galas wrote: They have said Skyfires have 3 weapons options. I doubt they are gonna release a upgrade sprue, so maybe they'll have the option to use the basic weapon sprue that already exist? Pistol+CS.
The arms are attached the same in each kit, so they could easily add the pistol+CS kit.
From the stream Storm bolter from Land Raider shoots at Enlightened, hits with 4 wounds with 3, 3 dice from saves were 4, 1, and 6, 2 models removed they have 1 wound. Why would they have 2 anyways? Discs don't add a wound to anyone else, why would the Tzaangors be special?
Which is really strange as AoS has them at 4 wounds, which is why people thought they might be.. Actually durable.
I assume they want to keep the feeling that the actual durable units in the army are the Marines, and Tzaangors aren't anything more than chaff. Footsloging or in disc, they are here to die. As other poster said, in AoS, Tzaangors are actually the "elite" of Tzeentch armies.
This, assuming is true they have 1W of course.
I copied the army list the Thousand Sons player used today into Battlescribe, minus the units that don't exist yet, and the points total was 1592. Basically, barring any points changes, the remaining 408 points were spent on the 9 Enlightened with Greatbows, the Mutalith and the Shaman.
Given that the Mutalith is a 14 wound regenerating monster with an invulnerable save that buffs nearby units and apparently has pretty decent melee stats (when wounded it was Strength 7 Attacks 4) I'd say that would probably be in the 150-200+ range.
The Enlightened with bows sound really nasty and presumably will have 2 wounds each at minimum, so 9 of them will probably cost a fair penny too - probably in the 200+ range.
The Shaman can cast one spell a turn but is functionally a psyker on a disk, even Heralds of Tzeentch on disks aren't all that cheap so I'm guessing the Shaman will probably be around the 100ish mark.
Conclusion; I'd say it's a fair bet we are getting points drops, that or the new stuff is under-costed based on what I expect given what they are apparently capable of. I don't see the Daemon Prince, Cultists and Predator getting points drops whatsoever, meaning any points drops we did get based on that list are tied to Ahriman, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult and Magnus. Seems like a safe bet!
Mutalith does NOT have an invul this was specifically mentioned in the stream.
From the stream Storm bolter from Land Raider shoots at Enlightened, hits with 4 wounds with 3, 3 dice from saves were 4, 1, and 6, 2 models removed they have 1 wound. Why would they have 2 anyways? Discs don't add a wound to anyone else, why would the Tzaangors be special?
agreed that the Shaman will probably cost around 100 points.
Mutalith is probably 150-175
Shaman is probably 100
Enlightened are probably 12-14 PPM (108-126 points)
They said during the stream the only two units in the thousand sons list that did not have a invul save were the cultist and predator the mutalith has a invul save.
I love how people like you are allowed to throw insults and tell people to get bent, and not receive any warnings. But people who try to defend themselves or get mad because they were insulted and reply in kind get warnings.
It's also hilarious that you claim this means you were correct yet the next 3 or 4 posts agree with the op.
What insults have I thrown at people? I've said this thread is stupid. There's a difference between saying a thread is stupid and calling someone stupid, FYI. I've made stupid threads and posts in the past, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm stupid. Same situation here. I genuinely think this thread is hot garbage, I don't think Thousand Son Sorcerer is a moron for it. Another FYI, you were implying the opposite when discussing the functionality of the Skyfire bows in 40K which is probably what got you the warning, and I'm sorry to hear that.
As for your "the next 3 or 4 posts agree with the op" comment, firstly, that's incredibly childish, but sure I'll bite. Secondly, I'm not sure what post you're reading but unless my eyes deceive me, that is inaccurate. The one immediately after mine agrees with me, the next two agree with Thousand Sons Sorcerer's point about the Tzaangor to Rubric ratio but one of them notes that the army used in the game could have easily been the inverse with 40 Rubrics and 10 Tzaangors. Most of the rest posts afterwards follow the same line of thinking; it's just the army list they chose to show off today, demoing the new stuff, they could have easily taken a Rubric-heavy list instead and it's possible they still would have won. They got a win over an army that some in here (including you) said would steamroll them easily. And, based on my points extrapolation, it looks very likely that Rubrics and Scarab Occult got needed points drops, but we know for a fact they got the most important change; access to new psychic powers. That alone makes both units far more worthwhile, as does the ability to teleport Rubrics around.
The entire purpose of me posting in this thread has been to try and point out that going full "doom and gloom" mode when we had no information about the codex was a pretty silly way to pass the time. Given the stuff that's already been confirmed for us, we've gotten a host of changes everyone was desperate for - Aspiring/Occult Sorcerers getting new powers, for one - and we still don't know everything about the book. Declaring "Thousand Sons are dead" when they literally have the best model representation and support they've ever had as well as their own unique codex was and has been proven to be stupid. That's just how it is
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Mutalith does NOT have an invul this was specifically mentioned in the stream.
From the stream Storm bolter from Land Raider shoots at Enlightened, hits with 4 wounds with 3, 3 dice from saves were 4, 1, and 6, 2 models removed they have 1 wound. Why would they have 2 anyways? Discs don't add a wound to anyone else, why would the Tzaangors be special?
agreed that the Shaman will probably cost around 100 points.
Mutalith is probably 150-175
Shaman is probably 100
Enlightened are probably 12-14 PPM (108-126 points)
You'll have to excuse me as I'm going off what everyone else has been reporting seeing as I can't be bothered subscribing to Warhammer TV, I've been checking what numerous people who watched the stream have been saying so if there are any mistakes, that's weird and unfortunate and I apologize.
From everything else I've read, the Mutalith has an invulnerable save. More than a few people have stated that the Cultists and Predator were explicitly the only units to lack an invulnerable save. Ergo, my prediction of it being 150-200+ is probably still on point. Compared to something like a Toxicrene (which is in that range), this thing sounds like it will be a lot harder to kill thanks to the invulnerable save (and extra wounds), have weaker but probably still decent melee, and have a buff aura.
The Enlightened having 2 wounds was obviously a guess of mine and if I'm wrong, that does change things obviously. The reason I assumed they would have 2 Wounds each is that no-one else had commented on the matter, there is a big precedent in AoS (I'll get to that in a moment), they are the "elite" Tzaangor unit, they are large, etc. I'm still not sure if they'll necessarily be in the 12-14 PPM range as their ability sounds pretty darned nasty, but we'll see. As for the AoS precedent, while regular Tzaangors are light infantry in 40K as opposed to the elite infantry role they fill in AoS, Skyfires and Enlightened explicitly aren't regular Tzaangors (they are the strongest of their kind and have magical gifts from Tzeentch) and have double the wounds of regular Tzaangors. Also, we don't have a precedent of disk-riding non-character models in 40K, just the actual Screamers themselves which have 2 Wounds each. Fair play, it sounds like the Enlightened are yet more cheap options for us.
I copied the army list the Thousand Sons player used today into Battlescribe, minus the units that don't exist yet, and the points total was 1592. Basically, barring any points changes, the remaining 408 points were spent on the 9 Enlightened with Greatbows, the Mutalith and the Shaman.
Given that the Mutalith is a 14 wound regenerating monster with an invulnerable save that buffs nearby units and apparently has pretty decent melee stats (when wounded it was Strength 7 Attacks 4) I'd say that would probably be in the 150-200+ range.
The Enlightened with bows sound really nasty and presumably will have 2 wounds each at minimum, so 9 of them will probably cost a fair penny too - probably in the 200+ range.
The Shaman can cast one spell a turn but is functionally a psyker on a disk, even Heralds of Tzeentch on disks aren't all that cheap so I'm guessing the Shaman will probably be around the 100ish mark.
Conclusion; I'd say it's a fair bet we are getting points drops, that or the new stuff is under-costed based on what I expect given what they are apparently capable of. I don't see the Daemon Prince, Cultists and Predator getting points drops whatsoever, meaning any points drops we did get based on that list are tied to Ahriman, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult and Magnus. Seems like a safe bet!
Mutalith does NOT have an invul this was specifically mentioned in the stream.
From the stream Storm bolter from Land Raider shoots at Enlightened, hits with 4 wounds with 3, 3 dice from saves were 4, 1, and 6, 2 models removed they have 1 wound. Why would they have 2 anyways? Discs don't add a wound to anyone else, why would the Tzaangors be special?
agreed that the Shaman will probably cost around 100 points.
Mutalith is probably 150-175
Shaman is probably 100
Enlightened are probably 12-14 PPM (108-126 points)
They said during the stream the only two units in the thousand sons list that did not have a invul save were the cultist and predator the mutalith has a invul save.
Your right I heard Mutalith instead of Cultist. should have gone to bed sooner.
Ahriman21 wrote: citation for enlightened being 1 wound a piece? I didn't notice that.
Re watch the stream at 1:56:00 when the stormbolter could be a hurricane bolter since 6 shots is firing at the Enlightened 6 shots 6 hits, 4 wounds (2s and 3s removed) S4 weapon, at least 1 save (6,4,3,3) 2 models removed. Hard to do with screen caps cause I would need like 6.
Now that I have finished watching the Stream time to address this gak.
Caederes wrote: Poor old Thousand Sons Sorcerer had to bow out of this thread in shame for being proven so hilariously, utterly wrong Lesson learned; don't spout predictions as facts and don't be overwhelmingly negative with no evidence to back up your claims!
They've pretty much given us what many in here believed wouldn't happen, i.e. Aspiring Sorcerers and Scarab Occult Sorcerers gaining access to powers other than Smite which pretty much completely fixes them, not one but two ways to Deep Strike/teleport which in conjunction with Deep Striking Chaos Daemons will give Tzeentch players one of the meaner alpha strikes in the game, a legion trait that's actually pretty darned useful, etc.
Some oddities though that I'm really curious about now;
1) Magnus can't re-roll saves anymore, but presumably kept his re-roll 1s for to-hit rolls aura. Question; what does that mean for Ahriman and Exalted Sorcerers? Do they now give re-roll 1s to-hit like Magnus, or do they not provide any auras at all? EDIT: Sounds like Magnus didn't lose his aura but rather just can't re-roll saves himself. We'll see.
2) The wording of the Skyfire 6s to-hit rule is weird, if someone watched the game I'd appreciate some clarification on it. 6s to-hit bypass the to-wound roll and go straight to the Damage roll, does that mean they bypass saves or is that report just worded incorrectly? As they aren't mortal wounds, presumably they still allow saves but just give you easier wounds similar to how Warhammer Fantasy poison used to work.
3) Do you have to roll each turn for the Mutalith aura, or is it similar to some other abilities where once you've rolled you can keep the same aura until you want to re-roll it?
Other than that.....I'm happy as larry. I think people in here really need to think about the implications of Deep Striking Pink Horrors and a massive blob of Tzaangors (who can apparently go up to 40 models now?) in tandem, either simultaneously or one after the other. The Horrors will clear out infantry bubble wrap with ease provided you have a Herald supporting them, then the Tzaangors can surge forward with Warptime (which with the +6" range should be easy to get on them) and charge in. Buff them up with Weaver of Fates and other powers to taste and that's one hell of an alpha strike; less damage to bigger targets than Bloodletters, but they are much tougher to get rid of and their hitting power doesn't drop that much whereas Bloodletters tend to do all their damage in one round. Hell, teleport Rubric Marines with Warpflamers up, Warptime them forward and pop Veterans of the Long War for some absolute carnage!
1.) If they changed the wording to the same as exalted then Magnus would lose the ability to reroll 1s since hes not TS infantry
2.) Its basically auto wound on 6s to hit, no to wound roll strait to armor save.
3.) no indication of this in the video or the stream, all we know is 1 buff is re-roll charge, and they blow up.
Some tidbits as well based on some of the "predictions" we had in here;
Prediction: Tzaangors can't get +1 to-hit.
Reality: Tzaangors apparently get +1 to-hit in units of 20 or more, and some are saying they even go up to units of 40.
No one said this and it's also not true, nothing said in the stream nor any dice rolls reflect this. What I said was they wont give a +1 to hit aura for the Tzaangor Shaman because they wont tie it to something that can't be taken away easily, so I was right. Plus they already have a +1 to hit with Prescience.
Prediction: Aspiring/Scarab Occult Sorcerers won't get new powers.
Reality: They get access to at least the new Thousand Sons discipline.
Not sure who said they would not get new powers, I said if they did it would probably cause a point bump on the Sorcs, which we don't know the points cost yet.
Prediction: Thousand Sons will easily get steam-rolled in the game.
Reality: Thousand Sons won handily on objectives.
You should watch the stream then ask yourself if this is true. Eddie didn't win the game, Steve lost the game to dice rolls. It is even mentioned by the commentators in the stream
Prediction: Tzaangors will lack the Thousand Sons keyword.
Reality: They have it. Duh.
Pretty sure what was said is they shouldn't have it but too lazy to look cause I don't agree.
Prediction: Thousand Sons will either lose Dark Hereticus or keep it but not get a new discipline...
Reality: They have access to at least two disciplines, possibly three.
I figured at least 2 maybe 3 depending on how frisky they were feeling, and just gave us access to Tzeentch, HA list and a new TS list.
Caederes wrote: Prediction: Thousand Sons are dead.
Reality: Stupidest thread I've read in a while.
Declaring yourself right when you know nothing about the stream at all or what it actually revealed.
Caederes wrote: What insults have I thrown at people? I've said this thread is stupid. There's a difference between saying a thread is stupid and calling someone stupid, FYI. I've made stupid threads and posts in the past, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm stupid. Same situation here. I genuinely think this thread is hot garbage, I don't think Thousand Son Sorcerer is a moron for it. Another FYI, you were implying the opposite when discussing the functionality of the Skyfire bows in 40K which is probably what got you the warning, and I'm sorry to hear that.
Threads are driven by people, calling a thread stupid is calling everyone in the thread stupid, but everyone knows what you mean. At the very least the person that started it.
Caederes wrote: As for your "the next 3 or 4 posts agree with the op" comment, firstly, that's incredibly childish, but sure I'll bite. Secondly, I'm not sure what post you're reading but unless my eyes deceive me, that is inaccurate. The one immediately after mine agrees with me, the next two agree with Thousand Sons Sorcerer's point about the Tzaangor to Rubric ratio but one of them notes that the army used in the game could have easily been the inverse with 40 Rubrics and 10 Tzaangors. Most of the rest posts afterwards follow the same line of thinking; it's just the army list they chose to show off today, demoing the new stuff, they could have easily taken a Rubric-heavy list instead and it's possible they still would have won. They got a win over an army that some in here (including you) said would steamroll them easily. And, based on my points extrapolation, it looks very likely that Rubrics and Scarab Occult got needed points drops, but we know for a fact they got the most important change; access to new psychic powers. That alone makes both units far more worthwhile, as does the ability to teleport Rubrics around.
The entire purpose of me posting in this thread has been to try and point out that going full "doom and gloom" mode when we had no information about the codex was a pretty silly way to pass the time. Given the stuff that's already been confirmed for us, we've gotten a host of changes everyone was desperate for - Aspiring/Occult Sorcerers getting new powers, for one - and we still don't know everything about the book. Declaring "Thousand Sons are dead" when they literally have the best model representation and support they've ever had as well as their own unique codex was and has been proven to be stupid. That's just how it is
30 Tzzangors cost 280 points
40 Rubrics cost 814 points minimum
Bullet proof argument, Guess those enlightened are more expensive then we thought.
to the Doom and Gloom statement read Seneca.
Have you seen the game? unless Magnus and Tzaangors (NOT enlightened just plane jane Tzaangors) are new they didnt demo anything.
Again, your calling me stupid but just remember you said it was PROVEN to be false.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Mutalith does NOT have an invul this was specifically mentioned in the stream.
From the stream Storm bolter from Land Raider shoots at Enlightened, hits with 4 wounds with 3, 3 dice from saves were 4, 1, and 6, 2 models removed they have 1 wound. Why would they have 2 anyways? Discs don't add a wound to anyone else, why would the Tzaangors be special?
agreed that the Shaman will probably cost around 100 points.
Mutalith is probably 150-175
Shaman is probably 100
Enlightened are probably 12-14 PPM (108-126 points)
You'll have to excuse me as I'm going off what everyone else has been reporting seeing as I can't be bothered subscribing to Warhammer TV, I've been checking what numerous people who watched the stream have been saying so if there are any mistakes, that's weird and unfortunate and I apologize.
From everything else I've read, the Mutalith has an invulnerable save. More than a few people have stated that the Cultists and Predator were explicitly the only units to lack an invulnerable save. Ergo, my prediction of it being 150-200+ is probably still on point. Compared to something like a Toxicrene (which is in that range), this thing sounds like it will be a lot harder to kill thanks to the invulnerable save (and extra wounds), have weaker but probably still decent melee, and have a buff aura.
The Enlightened having 2 wounds was obviously a guess of mine and if I'm wrong, that does change things obviously. The reason I assumed they would have 2 Wounds each is that no-one else had commented on the matter, there is a big precedent in AoS (I'll get to that in a moment), they are the "elite" Tzaangor unit, they are large, etc. I'm still not sure if they'll necessarily be in the 12-14 PPM range as their ability sounds pretty darned nasty, but we'll see. As for the AoS precedent, while regular Tzaangors are light infantry in 40K as opposed to the elite infantry role they fill in AoS, Skyfires and Enlightened explicitly aren't regular Tzaangors (they are the strongest of their kind and have magical gifts from Tzeentch) and have double the wounds of regular Tzaangors. Also, we don't have a precedent of disk-riding non-character models in 40K, just the actual Screamers themselves which have 2 Wounds each. Fair play, it sounds like the Enlightened are yet more cheap options for us.
The Mutalith does have an invul i heard Mutalith instead of cultist.
Ahriman21 wrote: citation for enlightened being 1 wound a piece? I didn't notice that.
Re watch the stream at 1:56:00 when the stormbolter could be a hurricane bolter since 6 shots is firing at the Enlightened 6 shots 6 hits, 4 wounds (2s and 3s removed) S4 weapon, at least 1 save (6,4,3,3) 2 models removed. Hard to do with screen caps cause I would need like 6.
Do you know which unit was doing the shooting? The spears/axes that the infantry guys carry shoot for 2 damage per shot.
Ahriman21 wrote: citation for enlightened being 1 wound a piece? I didn't notice that.
Re watch the stream at 1:56:00 when the stormbolter could be a hurricane bolter since 6 shots is firing at the Enlightened 6 shots 6 hits, 4 wounds (2s and 3s removed) S4 weapon, at least 1 save (6,4,3,3) 2 models removed. Hard to do with screen caps cause I would need like 6.
Do you know which unit was doing the shooting? The spears/axes that the infantry guys carry shoot for 2 damage per shot.
The only unit which was close enough to shoot them was locked in combat with cultists. Termies were in the LR but they cant shoot out, Lascannons arent wounding them on 4s.
BoomWolf wrote: Well, we can assume quite a bit of them are copypasta from CSM stratagems.
CSM stratagems that will likely be copied over:
Daemon Shell
Blasphemous Machines
Chaos Boon
Veterans of the Long War
The Great Sorcerer
Linebreaker Bombardment
Killshot
Daemonforge
Chaos Familiar
Flakk Missile
Fire Frenzy
Not 100% positive on all of those (we might not get Daemonforge) and there may be a couple that get ported over that aren't on this list (Tide of Traitors is a possibility but I think we'll get an alternative stratagem that lets us refresh our tzaangors somehow like DG did with their poxwalkers) but that leaves give-or-take 10 more stratagems specific to us, including the obvious "extra relics" stratagem. Plenty of room for some interesting stuff there.
BoomWolf wrote: Well, we can assume quite a bit of them are copypasta from CSM stratagems.
CSM stratagems that will likely be copied over:
Daemon Shell
Blasphemous Machines
Chaos Boon
Veterans of the Long War
The Great Sorcerer
Linebreaker Bombardment
Killshot
Daemonforge
Chaos Familiar
Flakk Missile
Fire Frenzy
Not 100% positive on all of those (we might not get Daemonforge) and there may be a couple that get ported over that aren't on this list (Tide of Traitors is a possibility but I think we'll get an alternative stratagem that lets us refresh our tzaangors somehow like DG did with their poxwalkers) but that leaves give-or-take 10 more stratagems specific to us, including the obvious "extra relics" stratagem. Plenty of room for some interesting stuff there.
Daemonforge? I have to agree with Ahriman that one we will most likely get lots of options to use it with. Flakk Missile though only usable with a unit with a certain upgrade.
Also, what are the chances we get some of the Tzeentch Daemon strats
Ahriman21 wrote: citation for enlightened being 1 wound a piece? I didn't notice that.
Re watch the stream at 1:56:00 when the stormbolter could be a hurricane bolter since 6 shots is firing at the Enlightened 6 shots 6 hits, 4 wounds (2s and 3s removed) S4 weapon, at least 1 save (6,4,3,3) 2 models removed. Hard to do with screen caps cause I would need like 6.
Upon further review I think he was shooting the Skyfires with a twinlinked heavy bolter (6 shots). Which means still 1 wound but T 5.
Some tidbits as well based on some of the "predictions" we had in here;
Prediction: Tzaangors can't get +1 to-hit.
Reality: Tzaangors apparently get +1 to-hit in units of 20 or more, and some are saying they even go up to units of 40.
No one said this and it's also not true, nothing said in the stream nor any dice rolls reflect this. What I said was they wont give a +1 to hit aura for the Tzaangor Shaman because they wont tie it to something that can't be taken away easily, so I was right. Plus they already have a +1 to hit with Prescience.
Prediction: Aspiring/Scarab Occult Sorcerers won't get new powers.
Reality: They get access to at least the new Thousand Sons discipline.
Not sure who said they would not get new powers, I said if they did it would probably cause a point bump on the Sorcs, which we don't know the points cost yet.
Prediction: Thousand Sons will easily get steam-rolled in the game.
Reality: Thousand Sons won handily on objectives.
You should watch the stream then ask yourself if this is true. Eddie didn't win the game, Steve lost the game to dice rolls. It is even mentioned by the commentators in the stream
Prediction: Tzaangors will lack the Thousand Sons keyword.
Reality: They have it. Duh.
Pretty sure what was said is they shouldn't have it but too lazy to look cause I don't agree.
Prediction: Thousand Sons will either lose Dark Hereticus or keep it but not get a new discipline...
Reality: They have access to at least two disciplines, possibly three.
I figured at least 2 maybe 3 depending on how frisky they were feeling, and just gave us access to Tzeentch, HA list and a new TS list.
Caederes wrote: Prediction: Thousand Sons are dead.
Reality: Stupidest thread I've read in a while.
Declaring yourself right when you know nothing about the stream at all or what it actually revealed.
1) I’m speculating that maybe they removed re-roll 1s as our faction’s main aura to try and give us something else, as re-roll 1s for invulnerable saves is generally either a moot point (4+ and 5+) or obnoxious (3+). It was really only good for Ahriman and Magnus. It’s entirely possible they just didn’t want Magnus to have it and kept the aura for Ahriman and Exalteds, which would be disappointing. I’m well aware the Exalted buff only affects Infantry, trust me.
2) Thank you for the clarification. People who have been talking about it haven’t been clear about it and I was led to believe it bypassed saves.
3) This one is more speculation. If it’s random table functions similarly to the one Slaan from Age of Sigmar do, that would be very nice. If not, hopefully the rest of the buffs are decent too.
a) First up, these were general predictions from people in this thread, not specifically you. My original post stated this, I edited it out because I felt it unnecessary to point out.
b) No. You were stating that Tzaangors would not get any +1 to-hit aura because, in your own words, “your not getting a model that costs 7 points has 2 S4 Ap-1 attacks and hits on 2”. You were claiming Tzaangors would not get the +1 to-hit because they would be too efficient with it, you didn’t mention anything about the Shaman being too easily taken away or anything of the sort. Your post history is right there buddy; “the Shaman will not add a +1 there is no way they are going to allow a mob of 30 guys that get 61 attacks to hit on 2s and reroll 1s”. Ergo, you did indeed say it and don’t try to backtrack out of it. As far as the +1 to-hit goes, the person that posted the info dump from the stream the other day mentioned it. The original version of my post specified that a lot of this is up for debate as WHTV streams aren’t always the best source of information as they tend to mess their rules up. So far, I’ve had zero reason not to trust that person.
c) I might have mistaken someone’s else’s words to mean something different. Doesn’t really matter, seeing as keeping both Dark Hereticus and getting at least one new discipline is easily the best outcome we could have had. Besides, I’m guessing a points drop – though likely minimal – is coming for Rubrics.
d) Are you serious? A whole bunch of people posting here and in the Thousand Sons thread said it wouldn’t end well for the Sons and they would get steam-rolled. Bad dice or not, they still pulled out a victory and showcased how effective the new stratagem and relic in particular can be for us. How is that not a good thing? Also, you don’t find it the least bit amusing that the narrative changes from “we’re gonna get smashed” to “bad dice won us the game”?
e) Nope. Someone in here outright predicted Tzaangors would lose the Thousand Sons keyword…to which everyone promptly roasted them for it. Page 10.
f) Again, this one wasn’t necessarily aimed at you unless I’m misremembering. This thread is a tide of junk so I’ve been doing my best to put it out of my mind, so I too can’t be bothered looking this up.
How do I “know nothing about the stream at all or what it actually revealed” when I have literally read every single bit of information posted about it by people that watched it both here and on other forums? Just because I’m getting the information second-hand doesn’t mean I’m wrong about it. You’ve messed up twice by misreporting that Mutaliths lack an invulnerable save and that it was hurricane bolters wounding the Skyfires, so it’s not like you are free from mistakes about the thing you actually watched in contrast to me who didn’t watch it. So far, the people I've been following haven't made any confirmed mistakes that I know of. I personally made the overzealous prediction that Enlightened would have at least 2 Wounds each, and it looks like I'm wrong. Fair play, but that was a prediction I made, not something someone reported. I'm extremely surprised that they have 1 Wound each, of course, which also brings my point pricing analysis into question. We'll see how that fares.
Also, you know for damned sure I’m right about this thread being stupid, to the point that people elsewhere on the forum are now starting to label Thousand Sons players as whiners. You made the statement and proceeded to double down on it before we had any evidence of the rules content of the codex and made blind assumptions that Tzaangor-heavy would be the main/only way to build the army. As much as the game revolved more around the Tzaangor units, that doesn’t necessarily signify that the Thousand Sons player would have fared worse if he had an alternate composition based around Rubric Marines. That’s the point we have been making; fleshing out the number of Tzaangor units from being solitary to numerous gives us new options, options which you do not have to use if you do not want to. Capiche?
With that aside, very nice catch on the stratagems. Having more than the Death Guard is extremely surprising to me, though I'm guessing we get more generic Chaos Space Marine stratagems than they do. Am I wrong in seeing that we have 7 more than the Death Guard? If so, that's deliciously ironic The more stratagems, the better, though the big one from where I'm standing that we share with Chaos Space Marines is still Veterans of the Long War. That stratagem is bonkers good.
No, it's not. Because you still didn't get the point. Nobody is complaining that we got more Tzaangors. That's been said a thousand times. And the 1k Sons did get wiped. How many models were left before they won due to the game ending?
No, it's not. Because you still didn't get the point. Nobody is complaining that we got more Tzaangors. That's been said a thousand times. And the 1k Sons did get wiped. How many models were left before they won due to the game ending?
Read this please. It is literally from the very first post in this thread.
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
This means that the Thousand Sons Army which once consisted of almost entirely rubric units and sorcerers will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers, basically taking the lore of the army trashing it and replacing it with something else.
"the Thousand Sons Army....will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers"
It's right there. It's been argued by you and others in here for the entire thread. Don't try and backtrack it. I'm so goddamned sick of this stupid thread and people going about in circles because they refuse to admit they made stupid statements without evidence to back it up.
Before we even had rules information from the codex, people in here were bitching that our army compositions would change to Tzaangor-heavy.
What on earth does "the 1k Sons did get wiped" have to do with the point of my post? Previously, how likely were we to win on objectives compared to now?
No, it's not. Because you still didn't get the point. Nobody is complaining that we got more Tzaangors. That's been said a thousand times. And the 1k Sons did get wiped. How many models were left before they won due to the game ending?
Read this please. It is literally from the very first post in this thread.
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
This means that the Thousand Sons Army which once consisted of almost entirely rubric units and sorcerers will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers, basically taking the lore of the army trashing it and replacing it with something else.
"the Thousand Sons Army....will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers"
It's right there. It's been argued by you and others in here for the entire thread. Don't try and backtrack it. I'm so goddamned sick of this stupid thread and people going about in circles because they refuse to admit they made stupid statements without evidence to back it up.
Before we even had rules information from the codex, people in here were bitching that our army compositions would change to Tzaangor-heavy.
What on earth does "the 1k Sons did get wiped" have to do with the point of my post? Previously, how likely were we to win on objectives compared to now?
Was it wrong? Forget how many models, how many units of Tzaangors vs Rubrics?
I covered this in an earlier post, but I guess it bears repeating.
One game where new units are being tested =/= the reality of the codex. New Tzaangor units added to codex, WHTV shows off the new units. Logic. They could've easily gone Rubric heavy, there's nothing stopping people from doing that, as many in this thread echoed a few pages back.
Caederes wrote: I covered this in an earlier post, but I guess it bears repeating.
One game where new units are being tested =/= the reality of the codex. New Tzaangor units added to codex, WHTV shows off the new units. Logic. They could've easily gone Rubric heavy, there's nothing stopping people from doing that, as many in this thread echoed a few pages back.
Try again.
You try and make a point of it:
"the Thousand Sons Army....will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers"
It's right there. It's been argued by you and others in here for the entire thread. Don't try and backtrack it. I'm so goddamned sick of this stupid thread and people going about in circles because they refuse to admit they made stupid statements without evidence to back it up.
And then tell me it doens't matter because it was a showcase of models....
This thread is like super dense black hole of pure whine. The immense pull of unrelenting negativity can easily pull you in, but beware: There is nothing here but darkness and endless complaining.
pismakron wrote: This thread is like super dense black hole of pure whine. The immense pull of unrelenting negativity can easily pull you in, but beware: There is nothing here but darkness and endless complaining.
While funny, the irony of your post does not go unnoticed.
No, it's not. Because you still didn't get the point. Nobody is complaining that we got more Tzaangors. That's been said a thousand times. And the 1k Sons did get wiped. How many models were left before they won due to the game ending?
Read this please. It is literally from the very first post in this thread.
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
This means that the Thousand Sons Army which once consisted of almost entirely rubric units and sorcerers will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers, basically taking the lore of the army trashing it and replacing it with something else.
"the Thousand Sons Army....will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers"
It's right there. It's been argued by you and others in here for the entire thread. Don't try and backtrack it. I'm so goddamned sick of this stupid thread and people going about in circles because they refuse to admit they made stupid statements without evidence to back it up.
Before we even had rules information from the codex, people in here were bitching that our army compositions would change to Tzaangor-heavy.
What on earth does "the 1k Sons did get wiped" have to do with the point of my post? Previously, how likely were we to win on objectives compared to now?
Was it wrong? Forget how many models, how many units of Tzaangors vs Rubrics?
About 6 units of Thousand Sons marines (Magnus and the Demon Prince, who are "ascended", Ahriman is a Thousand Sons Marine, Occult Terminators, Rubric Marines, The predator is most likely piloted by a marine), 3 Tzaangor units (Shaman, Enlightened, Tzaangors), 1 unit of cultists (just humans), 1 mutalith (Idkwtf)
Now, if you mean specifically rubric, just one unit. Considering how a Rubric is a type of thousand son marine though, its not fair comparing a single type against an entire set (Tzaangors).
No, it's not. Because you still didn't get the point. Nobody is complaining that we got more Tzaangors. That's been said a thousand times. And the 1k Sons did get wiped. How many models were left before they won due to the game ending?
Read this please. It is literally from the very first post in this thread.
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
This means that the Thousand Sons Army which once consisted of almost entirely rubric units and sorcerers will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers, basically taking the lore of the army trashing it and replacing it with something else.
"the Thousand Sons Army....will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers"
It's right there. It's been argued by you and others in here for the entire thread. Don't try and backtrack it. I'm so goddamned sick of this stupid thread and people going about in circles because they refuse to admit they made stupid statements without evidence to back it up.
Before we even had rules information from the codex, people in here were bitching that our army compositions would change to Tzaangor-heavy.
What on earth does "the 1k Sons did get wiped" have to do with the point of my post? Previously, how likely were we to win on objectives compared to now?
Was it wrong? Forget how many models, how many units of Tzaangors vs Rubrics?
About 6 units of Thousand Sons marines (Magnus and the Demon Prince, who are "ascended", Ahriman is a Thousand Sons Marine, Occult Terminators, Rubric Marines, The predator is most likely piloted by a marine), 3 Tzaangor units (Shaman, Enlightened, Tzaangors), 1 unit of cultists (just humans), 1 mutalith (Idkwtf)
Now, if you mean specifically rubric, just one unit. Considering how a Rubric is a type of thousand son marine though, its not fair comparing a single type against an entire set (Tzaangors).
No, it's not. Because you still didn't get the point. Nobody is complaining that we got more Tzaangors. That's been said a thousand times. And the 1k Sons did get wiped. How many models were left before they won due to the game ending?
Read this please. It is literally from the very first post in this thread.
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
This means that the Thousand Sons Army which once consisted of almost entirely rubric units and sorcerers will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers, basically taking the lore of the army trashing it and replacing it with something else.
"the Thousand Sons Army....will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers"
It's right there. It's been argued by you and others in here for the entire thread. Don't try and backtrack it. I'm so goddamned sick of this stupid thread and people going about in circles because they refuse to admit they made stupid statements without evidence to back it up.
Before we even had rules information from the codex, people in here were bitching that our army compositions would change to Tzaangor-heavy.
What on earth does "the 1k Sons did get wiped" have to do with the point of my post? Previously, how likely were we to win on objectives compared to now?
Was it wrong? Forget how many models, how many units of Tzaangors vs Rubrics?
About 6 units of Thousand Sons marines (Magnus and the Demon Prince, who are "ascended", Ahriman is a Thousand Sons Marine, Occult Terminators, Rubric Marines, The predator is most likely piloted by a marine), 3 Tzaangor units (Shaman, Enlightened, Tzaangors), 1 unit of cultists (just humans), 1 mutalith (Idkwtf)
Now, if you mean specifically rubric, just one unit. Considering how a Rubric is a type of thousand son marine though, its not fair comparing a single type against an entire set (Tzaangors).
Now you're arguing for the sake of arguing.
Does that have anything to do with the fact that CthulusSpy proved you wrong?
No, it's not. Because you still didn't get the point. Nobody is complaining that we got more Tzaangors. That's been said a thousand times. And the 1k Sons did get wiped. How many models were left before they won due to the game ending?
Read this please. It is literally from the very first post in this thread.
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
This means that the Thousand Sons Army which once consisted of almost entirely rubric units and sorcerers will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers, basically taking the lore of the army trashing it and replacing it with something else.
"the Thousand Sons Army....will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers"
It's right there. It's been argued by you and others in here for the entire thread. Don't try and backtrack it. I'm so goddamned sick of this stupid thread and people going about in circles because they refuse to admit they made stupid statements without evidence to back it up.
Before we even had rules information from the codex, people in here were bitching that our army compositions would change to Tzaangor-heavy.
What on earth does "the 1k Sons did get wiped" have to do with the point of my post? Previously, how likely were we to win on objectives compared to now?
Was it wrong? Forget how many models, how many units of Tzaangors vs Rubrics?
About 6 units of Thousand Sons marines (Magnus and the Demon Prince, who are "ascended", Ahriman is a Thousand Sons Marine, Occult Terminators, Rubric Marines, The predator is most likely piloted by a marine), 3 Tzaangor units (Shaman, Enlightened, Tzaangors), 1 unit of cultists (just humans), 1 mutalith (Idkwtf)
Now, if you mean specifically rubric, just one unit. Considering how a Rubric is a type of thousand son marine though, its not fair comparing a single type against an entire set (Tzaangors).
Now you're arguing for the sake of arguing.
Does that have anything to do with the fact that CthulusSpy proved you wrong?
Proved wrong how? Please tell me. Because the original reason was having more tzaangors than thousand sons marines. 4 kits vs 3. And not getting any new thousand sons marines units. In the game, there were 1 Rubric squad, 1 SoT. Yet tons of Tzaangors. Yes, it's a show case, but see the first half of this statement.
Caederes wrote: 1) I’m speculating that maybe they removed re-roll 1s as our faction’s main aura to try and give us something else, as re-roll 1s for invulnerable saves is generally either a moot point (4+ and 5+) or obnoxious (3+). It was really only good for Ahriman and Magnus. It’s entirely possible they just didn’t want Magnus to have it and kept the aura for Ahriman and Exalteds, which would be disappointing. I’m well aware the Exalted buff only affects Infantry, trust me.
2) Thank you for the clarification. People who have been talking about it haven’t been clear about it and I was led to believe it bypassed saves.
3) This one is more speculation. If it’s random table functions similarly to the one Slaan from Age of Sigmar do, that would be very nice. If not, hopefully the rest of the buffs are decent too.
a) First up, these were general predictions from people in this thread, not specifically you. My original post stated this, I edited it out because I felt it unnecessary to point out.
b) No. You were stating that Tzaangors would not get any +1 to-hit aura because, in your own words, “your not getting a model that costs 7 points has 2 S4 Ap-1 attacks and hits on 2”. You were claiming Tzaangors would not get the +1 to-hit because they would be too efficient with it, you didn’t mention anything about the Shaman being too easily taken away or anything of the sort. Your post history is right there buddy; “the Shaman will not add a +1 there is no way they are going to allow a mob of 30 guys that get 61 attacks to hit on 2s and reroll 1s”. Ergo, you did indeed say it and don’t try to backtrack out of it. As far as the +1 to-hit goes, the person that posted the info dump from the stream the other day mentioned it. The original version of my post specified that a lot of this is up for debate as WHTV streams aren’t always the best source of information as they tend to mess their rules up. So far, I’ve had zero reason not to trust that person.
c) I might have mistaken someone’s else’s words to mean something different. Doesn’t really matter, seeing as keeping both Dark Hereticus and getting at least one new discipline is easily the best outcome we could have had. Besides, I’m guessing a points drop – though likely minimal – is coming for Rubrics.
d) Are you serious? A whole bunch of people posting here and in the Thousand Sons thread said it wouldn’t end well for the Sons and they would get steam-rolled. Bad dice or not, they still pulled out a victory and showcased how effective the new stratagem and relic in particular can be for us. How is that not a good thing? Also, you don’t find it the least bit amusing that the narrative changes from “we’re gonna get smashed” to “bad dice won us the game”?
e) Nope. Someone in here outright predicted Tzaangors would lose the Thousand Sons keyword…to which everyone promptly roasted them for it. Page 10.
f) Again, this one wasn’t necessarily aimed at you unless I’m misremembering. This thread is a tide of junk so I’ve been doing my best to put it out of my mind, so I too can’t be bothered looking this up.
How do I “know nothing about the stream at all or what it actually revealed” when I have literally read every single bit of information posted about it by people that watched it both here and on other forums? Just because I’m getting the information second-hand doesn’t mean I’m wrong about it. You’ve messed up twice by misreporting that Mutaliths lack an invulnerable save and that it was hurricane bolters wounding the Skyfires, so it’s not like you are free from mistakes about the thing you actually watched in contrast to me who didn’t watch it. So far, the people I've been following haven't made any confirmed mistakes that I know of. I personally made the overzealous prediction that Enlightened would have at least 2 Wounds each, and it looks like I'm wrong. Fair play, but that was a prediction I made, not something someone reported. I'm extremely surprised that they have 1 Wound each, of course, which also brings my point pricing analysis into question. We'll see how that fares.
Also, you know for damned sure I’m right about this thread being stupid, to the point that people elsewhere on the forum are now starting to label Thousand Sons players as whiners. You made the statement and proceeded to double down on it before we had any evidence of the rules content of the codex and made blind assumptions that Tzaangor-heavy would be the main/only way to build the army. As much as the game revolved more around the Tzaangor units, that doesn’t necessarily signify that the Thousand Sons player would have fared worse if he had an alternate composition based around Rubric Marines. That’s the point we have been making; fleshing out the number of Tzaangor units from being solitary to numerous gives us new options, options which you do not have to use if you do not want to. Capiche?
With that aside, very nice catch on the stratagems. Having more than the Death Guard is extremely surprising to me, though I'm guessing we get more generic Chaos Space Marine stratagems than they do. Am I wrong in seeing that we have 7 more than the Death Guard? If so, that's deliciously ironic The more stratagems, the better, though the big one from where I'm standing that we share with Chaos Space Marines is still Veterans of the Long War. That stratagem is bonkers good.
This is what I said fully about the Shaman, next time try searching for everything and not just what makes you right.
the_scotsman wrote:....which is why it would be not at all as ridiculous as you claim for a buffing character to grant them 2+ to hit. Completely unsupported, Tzaangors are essentially worthless, the only reason they're quite useful right now is because they have access to pretty good defensive buffs through the ahriman/exalted reroll buff plus the psychic power that gives them a 4++.
They're really quite solid if you take a single unit of 30 in the army with the idea that you're going to give them that buff and in an emergency keep them from running with the Insane Bravery stratagem...but that's not using them as pure "fodder" - the whole point of them is that they perform a similar task to cultists but actually do kill things in melee quite effectively.
You have to look at effects as a whole, you give them a +1 with an aura and you free up a spell not to mention basically can get multiple instances of what is supposed to be limited. On top of that your going you end up with multiple squads being able to hit 97% of the time with 2 auras. 2 30 man squads will be able to kill 60+ Guard in a single turn, if you play your cards right you can snipe the Commisars with spells and Blam your talking upwards of 90 Guardsman a turn. Even SM will lose 400 points per turn, assuming a special in 1 of the 6 squads you will kill in a turn. But that's gotta cost like 8-9 hundred points nope might break 650 wont be above 700.
The're not fodder and never have been. They are 7 ppm they are almost double guardsman on their own. Not including HQs to buff them once you do that Guardsman will go up to 6 ppm Tzaangors on the other hand go up to 9 ppm if you include 1 Exalted for 60 Tzaangors. They have never been fodder.
If i had to venture a guess on the Aura i would say some sort of LD buff and reroll 1s to wound in CC. He will basically be a cross between an Exalted champion and a Dark Apostle.
Caederes wrote: How do I “know nothing about the stream at all or what it actually revealed” when I have literally read every single bit of information posted about it by people that watched it both here and on other forums?
Here is a lesson in logic.
1.) Everything is what it is (a=a)
2.) Everything is not what it isn't (a=/=b)
3.) Everything is never both nor neither (a=/= ~a and ~b)
Now you have READ things about the stream, that's great. Know, in this instance, means to have knowledge of in this sense. Knowledge means you have a justified, true, belief, (there are some problems there, but we wont get into that). You have no knowledge of the stream you have rumors about the stream, you don't know what happened on the stream you know what you have READ about the stream. You don't know that in the Second turn when Eddie should have lost his entire squad of Tzaangors he lost only 17 (out of 30), you don't know those 17 Tzaangors lasted until the end of game. You don't know that the Rubrics did all of feth the entire stream, that the SOT lasted exactly 2 rounds of combat against them killing only 2 models, you don't know that Magnus died in the second turn because He killed Valorium (or whatever the Characters name is for the Custodes) and he got his free I'm dying attack and killed Magnus with it. you don't know that the Pred sat in the back and did feth all the entire game.
After all that do you know what you know about the stream? Still nothing you know what someone wrote about the stream.
No, it's not. Because you still didn't get the point. Nobody is complaining that we got more Tzaangors. That's been said a thousand times. And the 1k Sons did get wiped. How many models were left before they won due to the game ending?
Read this please. It is literally from the very first post in this thread.
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
This means that the Thousand Sons Army which once consisted of almost entirely rubric units and sorcerers will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers, basically taking the lore of the army trashing it and replacing it with something else.
"the Thousand Sons Army....will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers"
It's right there. It's been argued by you and others in here for the entire thread. Don't try and backtrack it. I'm so goddamned sick of this stupid thread and people going about in circles because they refuse to admit they made stupid statements without evidence to back it up.
Before we even had rules information from the codex, people in here were bitching that our army compositions would change to Tzaangor-heavy.
What on earth does "the 1k Sons did get wiped" have to do with the point of my post? Previously, how likely were we to win on objectives compared to now?
"Now we're getting 3 new units with the Codex 2 are Gor units one HQ and one fast attack and we're getting a giant spawn. Don't get me wrong these things fill slots which need to be filled. The problem comes from the underlying concepts of these units."
-Quote from Thousand Sons Sorcerer
Agian, you pulled only the thing that made you right. You aren't looking to find what is true your looking to find what makes you right.
When people said "11 TS and 40 Tzaangors but you could do the opposite", no you can't Rubrics cost almost 3x Tzaangors with NO upgrades, but you parroted it because it made you right, that requires zero thought.
You even said I was right once you just don't realize it. When you mentioned bringing Horrors or Tzzangors, and dropping them infront of the enemy army, then mentioned dropping a unit of Rubrics.
Now since you know so much about the stream and all, and how I am so wrong. Answer me this, Would Eddie have been better off if he had dropped the SOT squad and the cultist squad and brought 4 10 man units of Tzaangors instead?
The rules for the Hellforged Contemptor already exist, and are pretty solid, it's what I currently use my Osiron as. Psychicness notwithstanding, it's a dreadnought with the right weapons and an invulnerable save, how different would a Rubric Contemptor be ruleswise? a 4++ instead of a 5++?
