Thousand Sons are dead...

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**Crimson**

nintura wrote:

No it doesnt... Yes, they CAN use Gor's. They shouldnt be MOSTLY gors.

If there are only about 700 rubrics, then they totally are mostly gors! But of course you're perfectly free to choose the preferred gor/rubric ration for your own force. If you think there should be more rubrics than gors then take more rubrics than gors. How bloody hard can that be?

**nintura**

Crimson wrote:
nintura wrote:

No it doesnt... Yes, they CAN use Gor's. They shouldnt be MOSTLY gors.

If there are only about 700 rubrics, then they totally are mostly gors! But of course you're perfectly free to choose the preferred gor/rubric ration for your own force. If you think there should be more rubrics than gors then take more rubrics than gors. How bloody hard can that be?

So by your logic every space marine army being played should be 50% or more IG? Glad that settles that.

**Arachnofiend**

Even as someone who mostly likes the AoS inclusions I think it's reasonable to be unhappy... I would expect that most people who got into Thousand Sons did so because they thought Rubric Marines are cool (I know that's why I started the army). If you like Rubrics but don't like Tzaangors and running a Thousand Sons list ends up meaning that you have to run mostly Tzaangors, then you're not playing the army you signed up for. I think it's all right to be upset about that.

**Sgt_Smudge**

nintura wrote:
Crimson wrote:
nintura wrote:

No it doesnt... Yes, they CAN use Gor's. They shouldnt be MOSTLY gors.

If there are only about 700 rubrics, then they totally are mostly gors! But of course you're perfectly free to choose the preferred gor/rubric ration for your own force. If you think there should be more rubrics than gors then take more rubrics than gors. How bloody hard can that be?

So by your logic every space marine army being played should be 50% or more IG? Glad that settles that.

No, I have the choice if I want to represent that. Which I can.

However, you'd know that Space Marines can work independently of the AM - which is reflected in the rules.

TS can work independently of their Gors. Which you can do. You have Rubric HQ and Troops. What's stopping you?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arachnofiend wrote:
Even as someone who mostly likes the AoS inclusions I think it's reasonable to be unhappy... I would expect that most people who got into Thousand Sons did so because they thought Rubric Marines are cool (I know that's why I started the army). If you like Rubrics but don't like Tzaangors and running a Thousand Sons list ends up meaning that you have to run mostly Tzaangors, then you're not playing the army you signed up for. I think it's all right to be upset about that.

When most people got into Thousand Sons, they were never a standalone army. Rubric Marines was the only actual option you got for proper TS until 6th/7th(?).

You can still play pure Rubric. You just have other options. Fluffy options.

**AegisGrimm**

Why cant it be viable fluff that Thousand Sons forces are NOT just vanilla Chaos Space Marines+Better Sorcery+Blue with gold scarabs?

I don't understand why it's wrong to establish concretely that what makes them unique is that remaining Thousand Sons forces field much less Terminator and Power armor suits (at least that aren't being worn by a Sorcerer) because it's so hard to make new Rubrics/the numbers of original Rubrics are dwindling? I'm not hugely up to date with 7th edition onwards, but does this fact conflict with anything previously written about post-Heresy Thousand Sons?

Even if the new codex had a unit entry for say, squads of Thousand Sons Havoks (and somehow in this day and age of GW had something other than just 4x Soulreaper Cannons), wouldn't some of us still be adamant about how "Pfft, Tzaangors are just a cheap port of AoS models into 40k, and also they aren't Thousand Sons so they shouldn't be in the Thousand Sons codex"?

it's not like any existing Thousand Sons players are having their armies scrapped by this new Codex and the rumors of how it is laid out. If you were ok with an army made from the three kits (likely backed up by some Tzeench Daemons, but that's just how I imagine a TSons army being fielded), it's likely you can just keep doing the same thing by never buying any Tzaangors.

**Arachnofiend**

AegisGrimm wrote:
Why cant it be viable fluff that Thousand Sons forces are NOT just vanilla Chaos Space Marines+Better Sorcery+Blue with gold scarabs?

I don't understand why it's wrong to establish concretely that what makes them unique is that remaining Thousand Sons forces field much less Terminator and Power armor suits (at least that aren't being worn by a Sorcerer) because it's so hard to make new Rubrics/the numbers of original Rubrics are dwindling? I'm not hugely up to date with 7th edition onwards, but does this fact conflict with anything previously written about post-Heresy Thousand Sons?

Even if the new codex had a unit entry for say, squads of Thousand Sons Havoks (and somehow in this day and age of GW had something other than just 4x Soulreaper Cannons), wouldn't some of us still be adamant about how "Pfft, Tzaangors are just a cheap port of AoS models into 40k, and also they aren't Thousand Sons so they shouldn't be in the Thousand Sons codex"?

Simple: feth the lore, Rubrics are cool and that's what Thousand Sons players want to field. I can't believe I'm arguing on the same side as Thousand-Sons-Sorcerer at this point but NOBODY got into this army because they really wanted to play beastmen.

**nintura**

No, I got into Thousand Sons because the fluff was awesome, the Rubrics were awesome, and they are supposed to have a ton of powerful psykers. That's all virtually moot now as we are required to take gors for fodder, daemon machines for melee and tank busting. Our psychic phase is nearly a joke as we dont get many at all anymore.

**SilverAlien**

nintura wrote:
Crimson wrote:
nintura wrote:
No. See? That's why we are going in circle. We are upset because we now have 4 Gor units and only 2 Rubric units in a codex for Thousand Sons.

Which fits the fluff. Problem?

No it doesnt... Yes, they CAN use Gor's. They shouldnt be MOSTLY gors.

Fluff wise? The armies led by the thousand son sorcerers have far fewer rubrics than they do tzaangors. The thousand sons are no longer a faction or army that consist primarily of marines, it is a force led by marines. That's both true in fluff and seems to be how this codex was written. This is a codex that combines functionality and fluff in a good way.

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

AegisGrimm wrote:Some of this feels like pure unadulterated arguing for the sake of it. Its like getting mad that Poxwalkers, Blight Haulers, and Blight Drones are in the Death Guard codex even though they are not Death Guard Marines.

It really does seem like some would have a better time simply using the Chaos Space Marines codex and painting up their force as a "Thousand Sons", gaining access to models like Havoks and Raptors, and make up a fluffy backstory reason as to why your particular Thousand Sons force works like that.

The difference is Blight Haulers augment PMs directly and PM can fill 4 different roles depending on the load out, they also got 2 kinds of Terminators, multiple aura units, all of which are Death Guard.

It would be more like they introduce Poxwalkers and then later introduce 3 variants of Poxwalkers to fill out the army while leaving the PM only filling 2 roles.

Crimson wrote:They can survive, if they employ servants such as Tzaangors!

Thats fine SOME Tzaangors are fine not 2/3s the army though. At that point im not playing a TS army with Tzaangor Support, Im playing a Tzaangor Army with TS support.

Crimson wrote:
nintura wrote:
No. See? That's why we are going in circle. We are upset because we now have 4 Gor units and only 2 Rubric units in a codex for Thousand Sons.

Which fits the fluff. Problem?

That is not how the army has played on the table, and that doesnt reflect the fluff. Fluff is lots of Tzaangors and mostly Rubrics they were used as Fodder not to full multiple roles.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverAlien wrote:
nintura wrote:
Crimson wrote:
nintura wrote:
No. See? That's why we are going in circle. We are upset because we now have 4 Gor units and only 2 Rubric units in a codex for Thousand Sons.

Which fits the fluff. Problem?

No it doesnt... Yes, they CAN use Gor's. They shouldnt be MOSTLY gors.

Fluff wise? The armies led by the thousand son sorcerers have far fewer rubrics than they do tzaangors. The thousand sons are no longer a faction or army that consist primarily of marines, it is a force led by marines. That's both true in fluff and seems to be how this codex was written. This is a codex that combines functionality and fluff in a good way.

More in Bodies yes but from a points perspective I shouldnt be spending more points on Tzaangors then Rubrics.

**BoomWolf**

AegisGrimm wrote:
Why cant it be viable fluff that Thousand Sons forces are NOT just vanilla Chaos Space Marines+Better Sorcery+Blue with gold scarabs?

I don't understand why it's wrong to establish concretely that what makes them unique is that remaining Thousand Sons forces field much less Terminator and Power armor suits (at least that aren't being worn by a Sorcerer) because it's so hard to make new Rubrics/the numbers of original Rubrics are dwindling? I'm not hugely up to date with 7th edition onwards, but does this fact conflict with anything previously written about post-Heresy Thousand Sons?

Even if the new codex had a unit entry for say, squads of Thousand Sons Havoks (and somehow in this day and age of GW had something other than just 4x Soulreaper Cannons), wouldn't some of us still be adamant about how "Pfft, Tzaangors are just a cheap port of AoS models into 40k, and also they aren't Thousand Sons so they shouldn't be in the Thousand Sons codex"?

it's not like any existing Thousand Sons players are having their armies scrapped by this new Codex and the rumors of how it is laid out. If you were ok with an army made from the three kits (likely backed up by some Tzeench Daemons, but that's just how I imagine a TSons army being fielded), it's likely you can just keep doing the same thing by never buying any Tzaangors.

No, we really wouldn't be pissed if we had a decent array of actual thousand sons, it would be in the realm of "meh, not doing much for me but whatever"

But as we DONT have a proper array of the actual thousand sons, getting the gors DOES cripple anyone who wants to field "pure" thousand sons, by the fact the presence of the gors makes it far less likely we'll get anything to cover our (many) holes in our "pure" rooster.
Especially when so many things that already exist in models (though forgeworld and technically 30k, except the snipers who yet to have models but it applies to them too-guys be psykers, they are not rubricated.) or are VERY easy to implement with simple upgrade kits or even build out of existing kits (rubric havoc variant, some elite grade characters out of the exalted kit, etc-and given the nemesis grandmaster, you can't use the "no official model no rules" excuse.) so actually giving us the thing we actually wanted would have been really, really easy.
And if they WANTED to expand and make cool new toys, that too would be easy by creating new kits that are made nearly entirely out of bits taken from hybrids of existing kits reshuffled in new sprues, the easiest would be havok variant who are just rubrics with more cannons on sprue (and maybe a handful of new heavies ported over from CSM/IoM "basics" armory and added as a heavy option for regular rubrics, not like we lack cases where a heavy gun the basic trooper can get 1 of isn't in the kit.), but disk-mounted rubrics would be simple (use the gor disks, and rubrics-all you need is maybe a new weapon), so would CC rubrics (rubrics with swords from exalted kit) making such hybrid kits in the 3d software that makes sprues takes hardly any time-you can easily make all preparations for this kind of release (rules, sprue design and box design) in less of a day's work of one employee in each category-and we would be rejoicing. (well, technically each employee will work on a different day, as the box art dude has to wait for the models to be made and painted to make the box-but still a day each.)

GW kina dropped the ball with this entire release/announcement thingy.
TS would have been a tiny effort to expand upon in the direction the fans actually wanted. heck, even with zero new kits-we could have gotten enough to pacify us by simply turning existing kits to more slates (EASY to do-but confirmed not to.)
Custodians on the other hand-should not even be released yet. the release that could be amazing got sour because it begs the question "are you seriusly bringing a new army before multiple existing armies getting codcies? and its basically more IoM space marine variants?". its a real slap in the face to all tau/ork/necron/Deldar/harlequin players. thousand sons and wolves less so (and they got CSM/codex marines to work with in the meantime if they want) but also a bit.
Had they released them as the first codex right after the entire cycle of 8th codcies been released, this release (same models, same rules, same everything) would have been accepted FAR better by the crowds.
But this timing, is just poor.

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

Arachnofiend wrote:
AegisGrimm wrote:
Why cant it be viable fluff that Thousand Sons forces are NOT just vanilla Chaos Space Marines+Better Sorcery+Blue with gold scarabs?

I don't understand why it's wrong to establish concretely that what makes them unique is that remaining Thousand Sons forces field much less Terminator and Power armor suits (at least that aren't being worn by a Sorcerer) because it's so hard to make new Rubrics/the numbers of original Rubrics are dwindling? I'm not hugely up to date with 7th edition onwards, but does this fact conflict with anything previously written about post-Heresy Thousand Sons?

Even if the new codex had a unit entry for say, squads of Thousand Sons Havoks (and somehow in this day and age of GW had something other than just 4x Soulreaper Cannons), wouldn't some of us still be adamant about how "Pfft, Tzaangors are just a cheap port of AoS models into 40k, and also they aren't Thousand Sons so they shouldn't be in the Thousand Sons codex"?

Simple: feth the lore, Rubrics are cool and that's what Thousand Sons players want to field. I can't believe I'm arguing on the same side as Thousand-Sons-Sorcerer at this point but NOBODY got into this army because they really wanted to play beastmen.

This, they can easily retcon the lore so they are able to at least maintain the numbers they have, hell watch this

Restored Sons - TS Rubrics which have been restored to their full selves, squads of 3 equip them with either Melee weapons or Heavy weapons, make them an Elites choice. Bam problem solved. they could even use the CSM box and just add some new items to it, you know like they did with the Tzaangors.

**ZebioLizard2**

nintura wrote:
No, I got into Thousand Sons because the fluff was awesome, the Rubrics were awesome, and they are supposed to have a ton of powerful psykers. That's all virtually moot now as we are required to take gors for fodder, daemon machines for melee and tank busting. Our psychic phase is nearly a joke as we dont get many at all anymore.

If you thought the fluff was awesome.. Yet somehow your fluff doesn't match the established fluff that the Tsons use a ton of auxiliary stuff in their armies.

"are you seriusly bringing a new army before multiple existing armies getting codcies?

Custodes got introduced in 7th, they just got expanded out in this edition. Just like Tsons!

**nintura**

BoomWolf wrote:
AegisGrimm wrote:
Why cant it be viable fluff that Thousand Sons forces are NOT just vanilla Chaos Space Marines+Better Sorcery+Blue with gold scarabs?

I don't understand why it's wrong to establish concretely that what makes them unique is that remaining Thousand Sons forces field much less Terminator and Power armor suits (at least that aren't being worn by a Sorcerer) because it's so hard to make new Rubrics/the numbers of original Rubrics are dwindling? I'm not hugely up to date with 7th edition onwards, but does this fact conflict with anything previously written about post-Heresy Thousand Sons?

Even if the new codex had a unit entry for say, squads of Thousand Sons Havoks (and somehow in this day and age of GW had something other than just 4x Soulreaper Cannons), wouldn't some of us still be adamant about how "Pfft, Tzaangors are just a cheap port of AoS models into 40k, and also they aren't Thousand Sons so they shouldn't be in the Thousand Sons codex"?

it's not like any existing Thousand Sons players are having their armies scrapped by this new Codex and the rumors of how it is laid out. If you were ok with an army made from the three kits (likely backed up by some Tzeench Daemons, but that's just how I imagine a TSons army being fielded), it's likely you can just keep doing the same thing by never buying any Tzaangors.

No, we really wouldn't be pissed if we had a decent array of actual thousand sons, it would be in the realm of "meh, not doing much for me but whatever"

But as we DONT have a proper array of the actual thousand sons, getting the gors DOES cripple anyone who wants to field "pure" thousand sons, by the fact the presence of the gors makes it far less likely we'll get anything to cover our (many) holes in our "pure" rooster.
Especially when so many things that already exist in models (though forgeworld and technically 30k, except the snipers who yet to have models but it applies to them too-guys be psykers, they are not rubricated.) or are VERY easy to implement with simple upgrade kits or even build out of existing kits (rubric havoc variant, some elite grade characters out of the exalted kit, etc-and given the nemesis grandmaster, you can't use the "no official model no rules" excuse.) so actually giving us the thing we actually wanted would have been really, really easy.
And if they WANTED to expand and make cool new toys, that too would be easy by creating new kits that are made nearly entirely out of bits taken from hybrids of existing kits reshuffled in new sprues, the easiest would be havok variant who are just rubrics with more cannons on sprue (and maybe a handful of new heavies ported over from CSM/IoM "basics" armory and added as a heavy option for regular rubrics, not like we lack cases where a heavy gun the basic trooper can get 1 of isn't in the kit.), but disk-mounted rubrics would be simple (use the gor disks, and rubrics-all you need is maybe a new weapon), so would CC rubrics (rubrics with swords from exalted kit) making such hybrid kits in the 3d software that makes sprues takes hardly any time-you can easily make all preparations for this kind of release (rules, sprue design and box design) in less of a day's work of one employee in each category-and we would be rejoicing. (well, technically each employee will work on a different day, as the box art dude has to wait for the models to be made and painted to make the box-but still a day each.)

GW kina dropped the ball with this entire release/announcement thingy.
TS would have been a tiny effort to expand upon in the direction the fans actually wanted. heck, even with zero new kits-we could have gotten enough to pacify us by simply turning existing kits to more slates (EASY to do-but confirmed not to.)
Custodians on the other hand-should not even be released yet. the release that could be amazing got sour because it begs the question "are you seriusly bringing a new army before multiple existing armies getting codcies? and its basically more IoM space marine variants?". its a real slap in the face to all tau/ork/necron/Deldar/harlequin players. thousand sons and wolves less so (and they got CSM/codex marines to work with in the meantime if they want) but also a bit.
Had they released them as the first codex right after the entire cycle of 8th codcies been released, this release (same models, same rules, same everything) would have been accepted FAR better by the crowds.
But this timing, is just poor.

Eeeeexxxxalted.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
nintura wrote:
No, I got into Thousand Sons because the fluff was awesome, the Rubrics were awesome, and they are supposed to have a ton of powerful psykers. That's all virtually moot now as we are required to take gors for fodder, daemon machines for melee and tank busting. Our psychic phase is nearly a joke as we dont get many at all anymore.

If you thought the fluff was awesome.. Yet somehow your fluff doesn't match the established fluff that the Tsons use a ton of auxiliary stuff in their armies.

"are you seriusly bringing a new army before multiple existing armies getting codcies?
Custodes got introduced in 7th, they just got expanded out in this edition. Just like Tsons!

No.... the fluff of the Rubric. Magnus. Russ. Heresy. Sorcery. Falling to Tzeentch. All of that.

**andysonic1**

Death Guard: elite units supported by daemons and zombies and vehicles. Clearly unique and different from imperial armies to show their embrace of chaos. No one bats an eye, all good, cool gak.

Thousand Sons: elite units supported by daemons and beastmen and chaos beasts. Clearly unique and different from imperial armies to show their embrace of chaos. RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Look, guys, I do get that you want the full range of CSM, but you aren't going to get it. You're going to get a fluffy, unique, and frankly awesome army that will work on its own and even better with daemon allys potentially, just like Death Guard. And when Emp Children is announced later this year, they will more than likely get the same treatment: elites supported by daemons and boobs and SONIC BOOM!

This is what your army is now. I honestly cannot fathom how this thread has gone on so long. Either embrace the new fluff of your legion or play 30k.

**Daedalus81**

Arachnofiend wrote:

Simple: feth the lore, Rubrics are cool and that's what Thousand Sons players want to field. I can't believe I'm arguing on the same side as Thousand-Sons-Sorcerer at this point but NOBODY got into this army because they really wanted to play beastmen.

Incorrect. I shat myself when Tzaangors made it into the SIlver Tower box and again when they made them available for 40K. The armies have come full circle to their "popular" roots.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nintura wrote:
No, I got into Thousand Sons because the fluff was awesome, the Rubrics were awesome, and they are supposed to have a ton of powerful psykers. That's all virtually moot now as we are required to take gors for fodder, daemon machines for melee and tank busting. Our psychic phase is nearly a joke as we dont get many at all anymore.

Not sure you can claim the phase is a joke when you don't have their lore in front of you. Past Tzeentch spells have been very damage focused. And, yes, if you want to be competitive you can't have your elite units bearing the brunt of he enemy attacks.

**Formosa**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Okay here is my challange to you I want you to build a CSM army without any CSM in it none at all. A battle forged army that could win some games. Once your done with that just pick another army at random and build that without using any thing in the Title. So an ork Army with no Orks, Daemon Army with no Daemons, Tau Army with no Tau (this is the closest you will get, and by the way there are 4 Kroot units and 3 TS units. So an Auxiliary has more units then an army).

Okay.

Cultist horde and Daemon Engines, lead by a Daemon Prince.
Grot revolution list (something I find really cool!) - Gretchin, Ork Artillery, Grot Tanks.
Daemon army with no Daemons is impossible, given that Daemons make up 100% of the list. There's no other choice. Not the same as this, considering that there's enough Rubricae in the TS codex to make a Battalion.
Tau army with no Tau - Kroot and Vespid, including Knarlocs, Hounds and Riders.

You were saying?

TS have HQ and Troops. The most BASIC detachment in the game can be fulfilled by this.

Winning all depends on what you're playing against. A mirror match? A friendly pickup game? A tournament tier list? Even IF Rubricae was the only thing in the TS army, and consisted of a good range of units, they could still lose against a friendly pickup game if the 'dex was underpowered anyway.
Realistically, the entire SM codex could be reduced to Guilliman, Stormravens and Razorbacks, and it would be more competitive than most lists.

So - what was your point?

Chaos Space Marines (Possible)
Chaos Daemons (Not Possible)
Dark Eldar (Not Possible)
Craftworld Eldar(Not Possible)
Eldar Harlequins(Not Possible)
Necrons (Not Possible)
Orks (Almost Possible HQ has to be Ork)
Tau Empire ( almost Possible HQ has to be Tau)
Tyranids (Not Possible)
Genestealer Cults (Not Possible)
Space Marines (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, Ultramarines and Space Wolves each have their own chapter Codex.)(Not Possible)
Astra Militarum (Imperial Guard) (Not Possible)
Militarum Tempestus (Stormtroopers) (Possible)
Inquisition (Not Possible)
Adepta Sororitas (Sisters of Battle) (Not Possible)
Imperial Knights (Not Possible)
Skitarii (Troops of Adeptus Mechanicus) (Not Possible)
Cult Mechanicus (Priesthood of Adeptus Mechanicus) (Not Possible)

Being intentionally obtuse doesn't make you smart. You also managed to randomly pick the only other 2 out of 20 factions that can come close, but aren't actually able to accomplish it. What are the odds?
Sorry, I was just working with the factions you gave me at the start. Still - I did what you said. Most of the other factions listed don't even have a "type" split in the list which can be exploited (ie. Knights or Inquisition). So, if you'd like, I could do one with pretty much any list which does have a split. And again, if we're supporting my "winning doesn't matter" claim, then I could build anything with just 1 unit, just spamming the auxiliary detachment over and over again. I'd probably get no CP, but you can still win without them.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
To the people who keep saying "oh you just want Spiky Marines" please stop its not an argument, and you sound childish. SM have literally everything. You guys have so much crap they ran out of gak to give to you and what did they do focus on other factions? Nope Adeptus Restartes. Whole line of them. Asking for a heavy weapons squad isnt exactly out of this world. Damn near every army has a heavy weapons squad, why cant we have one? The models exist. It would allow you to not have to buy 2 boxes of Rubrics to get 2 Soul Reaper Cannons.
Custodes are just as much Space Marine as Sisters are - just the opposite side of the spectrum. If SoB got a release, would you call them SM? No - so why do Custodes matter here?

I was talking about NuMarines you know the entirely new line of space marines which didn't exist at all anywhere even in lore up until a year ago?
My mistake, I though you were referring to Custodes.

Although, to be fair, the Primaris are going to be GW's main focus for Space Marines now, loyalist or not.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Want a list of armies without heavy weapons squads? Nurgle, for one. Tempestus Militarum. Custodes, presumably. Assassins. Inquisition. Sisters of Silence. Harlequins. Genestealer Cults.
All of the above are "sub-factions" - few units, very specialised. I think TS fits in that category too, given how GW is treating them.

Lets see which of these factions screams needs a heavy weapons squad. Assassins hmm m seems subtlety is more their thing. Custodes are a melee focused army and rely more on speed then firepower, Genestealer Cults do have heavy weapons they are just embedded into the squads and come in melee form (go figure with an army that can pop up anywhere on the map), Harlequins are again a fast melee focused unit that rely on being in the enemies face, they also have melta pistols. Inquisition seems like they are a Psyker Melee army, but sure they could have a heavy weapons squad don't see why not, Nurgle again a melee monster, Sisters they have some pretty cool unique stuff with Rhinos, but yeah they could probably use a heavy weapons squad (and probably more), not to familiar with them though.
And Thousand Sons are a psyker army. Why should they need heavy weapons then? This argument fails when, like you, you want your guys to have some potential in heavy firepower. I mean, if not, why would you want it?

Plus, like genestealer cults, Thousand Sons "do have heavy weapons they are just embedded into the squads". Sorted.

Also, sorry, Sisters have unique stuff with Rhinos? The Sisters of Silence have three units, plus one single generic Rhino. It's heaviest weapon is a hunter killer missile upgrade.

So, your statement about "damn near every army has heavy weapons squads" - not quite true. The biggest armies do, yes - but they're all the big armies. The smaller ones, which TS slot into, lack them.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
[spoiler]Also, if you're complaining about the Soulreapers being limited, how about Deathwatch? 1 Infernus Heavy Bolter and 1 Frag Cannon per box too - does that Deathwatch to "no heavy weapon teams" as well?
Thousand Sons aren't being treated like the main Space Marine codex, because GW sees them more like the other "splinter" faction armies.

Again, being intentionally obtuse doesn't make you smart.
Excuse me, could you elaborate on this? Where am I obtuse?

I'm just pointing out that Deathwatch have a similar heavy weapons kit situation.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If you want to oppose the TS being treated as a splinter army instead, that's fine, but I would hope you also supported the other splinter armies being upgraded too.

You act like I'm asking for 10 new kits all I was thinking personally was 1 new kit which they already have the rules and the models for just mash it together and make it a unit, and maybe a cheap HQ with an Aura. I don't even think we should have a fast attack.
Given the outrage people seem to having in this thread, I doubt that one single unit would make that all better.

I could be wrong.

Plus, won't there be a cheap Tzaangor HQ for that aura effect?

Formosa wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
As far as I see it, Thousand Sons players have only gotten more units. If you don't want to use the Tzaangors, don't.

If you want to play 30k, play 30k. GW has made it clear that the 40k Thousand Sons are Rubricae and are a different beast than what they were 10,000 years ago.

The complaints of "what happened to all their heavy weapon teams? what about their sweet heresy era stuff?!" - same as what happened to the rest of the CSM list. I can't say I agree on them losing their heresy era stuff any more so than the rest of the CSM list, but there's no reason the TS should get it and the rest of the Traitor Legions shouldn't.

Regarding the heavy weapon teams, even if we assume then that all the heavy weapons left are the soulreaper cannons and that THEY should be grouped into one unit - why can't I do that with all the plasma guns on my Tactical Marines? An all plasma tac squad, why not?
Squads aren't grouped logically - it's GW's old "normal guys with a special weapon thrown in" formula. It's the same for everyone, not just TS.

Realistically, the TS can't just be CSM+Tzeentch. There would be no reason to take CSM. Same way CSM can't just be SM+daemons.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but considering TS used to have two units until fair recently (Rubricae and Ahriman), I don't understand why people are so up in arms. You didn't lose anything from your 40k lists. If you played full Rubric TS, then you only had one unit really to use - there's nothing stopping you from doing that still.

If you're saying that makes you underpowered, then how about an AM player who takes an all Rough-Rider force? After all, they COULD use the rest of their book, but they want to use what they want. Does that make AM bad?

I can answer those questions.

Firstly the other legions DO have these weapons, so dont know where your coming from on that, autocannon havocs, plasma guns etc. its all there bar a few heresy specific weapons like volkites.
I more meant things like jetbikes, speeders, quad mortars, cataphractii and tartaros armour, conversion beamers, Apothecaries.

Why cant space marines band together to have "special weapon squads", simple, the codex, it defined how marines can fight, secondly, they can, they are called hellblasters, Chaos does not follow the codex, except for some reason they do???? that has been a bug bear of mine for a while, 4 heavies to a havoc squad, 1 heavy and 1 special in a tac squad, thats codex space marines and fits that fluff, this is not how the legions fought, so that needs explaining.
Helblasters represent a newly formed development in the Codex from Guilliman himself. They're new, and not to mention, Primaris only.

Maybe the Legions can only do 1 special and heavy because of a lack of resources? Maybe they think it's more tactically flexible.
The same reasoning which stops my Space Marine Captain picking up a lascannon, the same reasoning that stops Imperial Guard sergeants holding lasguns, the same logic that stops a Deathwatch Marine from how to use a grav-weapon. Because GW says so, and it's a consistent theme for Troops units to have 1 special and/or heavy (even though I could easily equip them all with the special weapon).

As to why have people only being saying this recently, thats not true at all, its something we have been saying since 3rd, Thousand sons should have access to the same units as Chaos marines but some of these should be represented by Rubricai.
The problem is that if you could just do "Rubric X", then why would you realistically take the normal one? Unless the Rubric variant had significant negative effects or a large points mark-up, people would just take "Rubric X" instead of "X". And that's ignoring GW consciously wanting to specialise what the Rubricae represent.

It boils down to wanting more Thousand sons representation in the Thousand sons codex, I have no issue with the addition of Tzaangors, but Thousand sons need more representation too, something that is very easy to implement and fits the fluff, this "no model no rules" crap is the real issue here.
Why aren't Tzaangors Thousand Sons? I mean, they're in their codex, probably will have the <Thousand Sons> keyword - what gives?

Did you mean "Rubricae" need more representation? GW seem to be implying that there are little Rubricae left, being sorted into Scarab Occult and Rubric Marines squads. If, in their setting, they want to push the idea that the Thousand Sons lack more specialised units, that's their design choice.

Tzaangors are not Thousand sons, they are in the codex, that is it, I even bet they will lack the "thousand sons" keyword.
We shall see. Would you wish to bet?

Also, still waiting on an answer about that Rough Rider situation.

Formosa wrote:Sorry but no, I blame GW for both the policy and sueing another company for ip infringement, a company that was not infringing there ip because they in fact did not own a lot of the ip they claimed to, it was a direct result of GWS bullying tactics, and I hold them responsible.
You're welcome to choose to blame who you want, but considering other companies had done the Chapterhouse trick before and GW hadn't gone after them, it is on Chapterhouse for them "poking the bear" too hard.

GW took action to defend their IP - the courts ruled what was and wasn't their IP, and GW then removed whatever they could that wasn't legally defendable. GW didn't bully anyone - they defended what they owned. If they didn't own it, then they changed the name so they could. That's called business.

You can say what you like, but the catalyst for it is on Chapterhouse, like it or not.

Simple tzaangors are as much thousand sons as cadians are ultramarines, it's a force alongside a faction fighting to aid it, not a part of the same faction, you can add the thousand sons keyword but they are not thousand sons.
That's a lie and you know it.

Shall we compare?

Ultramarines share the <Imperium> keyword with the Cadians, and aren't even in the same book. That's it. Fluff wise, they share even less - Cadians "were" located in majority around the Cadian gate, now largely scattered. The Ultramarines are focussed as far away from the Cadian Gate as it s possible to be. So no, not similar really.

Tzaangors will most likely share the <Chaos> and <Tzeentch> keywords, and probably even the <Thousand Sons> keyword, as well as being in the same codex. So, vastly more similar.

You'd be better off comparing the Tzaangors being as much Thousand Sons as Space Marine Scouts or Servitors to normal Tactical Marines - aka, very similar.

Unless you can prove to me that they do lack the <Thousand Sons> keyword, I don't think I agree with your opinion.

First of all I will state it again and in a much simpler way, Tzaangors are LITERALLY not Thousand sons, the keywords do not change this in anyway shape or form, the Gors are an Auxillary force used to boost the low numbers of the Tsons, as others have stated several times, in this codex however the Aux force is now in the majority, like say, ultramarines codex having 2 HQ, a lord of war an elite and a tac squad, the rest is the guard codex thrown in, see the problem there?

I do side with chapterhouse as GW at the time was very well known for its bullying tactics, spots the space marine anyone?

I flatly ignored the "bet" question as it was childish and not worth my time to answer, the rough rider question is just as worthless.

Yes I mean Rubricai need more representation, and if GW wants to show that Tsons are a tiny fraction of numbers, then call this codex Tzaangors, and just leave the Tsons in the chaos dex, if they want a codex Tsons, then put some actual Tsons in it.... or effort.

Maybe legions can only do what you say, but then why do they follow the codex makeup of codex marines so closely, this has been an issue since 3rd to my memory, spikey marines or marines -1, thankfully the new codex isnt as crap as the old ones, but is still just spikey marines, its chaos, chapters or legions, both are very poorly represented compared to the fluff.

Hellblasters are stated to be a throwback to the legions makeup, special weapon squads basically, same with LTS and centurions, so space marines now have a legion unit (variation) because Guilliman came back, yet the same legionaries that fought in the great crusade decided "nah, I like the look of that codex right there, lets change our makeup to match that" yet another disconnect with the background and the game, being primaris is irrelevent, the fact its just a special weapons squad with a different name is what matters.

So lets ask you a direct question, why dont you want anymore Tsons in the Tsons codex, why are you so against it?

**BrianDavion**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
nintura wrote:
No, I got into Thousand Sons because the fluff was awesome, the Rubrics were awesome, and they are supposed to have a ton of powerful psykers. That's all virtually moot now as we are required to take gors for fodder, daemon machines for melee and tank busting. Our psychic phase is nearly a joke as we dont get many at all anymore.

If you thought the fluff was awesome.. Yet somehow your fluff doesn't match the established fluff that the Tsons use a ton of auxiliary stuff in their armies.

"are you seriusly bringing a new army before multiple existing armies getting codcies?
Custodes got introduced in 7th, they just got expanded out in this edition. Just like Tsons!

not only that but custodes fans (and apparently the popularity of the minis has suprised GW) have been asking for an HQ since burning of prosperio. the fact is Orks can PLAY their army. Necrons can PLAY their army.
Custodes needed a codex just to be able to play as something other then a component of a soup list

**Arachnofiend**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
AegisGrimm wrote:
Why cant it be viable fluff that Thousand Sons forces are NOT just vanilla Chaos Space Marines+Better Sorcery+Blue with gold scarabs?

I don't understand why it's wrong to establish concretely that what makes them unique is that remaining Thousand Sons forces field much less Terminator and Power armor suits (at least that aren't being worn by a Sorcerer) because it's so hard to make new Rubrics/the numbers of original Rubrics are dwindling? I'm not hugely up to date with 7th edition onwards, but does this fact conflict with anything previously written about post-Heresy Thousand Sons?

Even if the new codex had a unit entry for say, squads of Thousand Sons Havoks (and somehow in this day and age of GW had something other than just 4x Soulreaper Cannons), wouldn't some of us still be adamant about how "Pfft, Tzaangors are just a cheap port of AoS models into 40k, and also they aren't Thousand Sons so they shouldn't be in the Thousand Sons codex"?

Simple: feth the lore, Rubrics are cool and that's what Thousand Sons players want to field. I can't believe I'm arguing on the same side as Thousand-Sons-Sorcerer at this point but NOBODY got into this army because they really wanted to play beastmen.

This, they can easily retcon the lore so they are able to at least maintain the numbers they have, hell watch this

Restored Sons - TS Rubrics which have been restored to their full selves, squads of 3 equip them with either Melee weapons or Heavy weapons, make them an Elites choice. Bam problem solved. they could even use the CSM box and just add some new items to it, you know like they did with the Tzaangors.

Aaaand we're right back to disagreeing again. It completely defeats the point if you're going to solve the Rubric, you're seriously not helping with the accusations that TS fans just want to play 30k. -_-

**ZebioLizard2**

First of all I will state it again and in a much simpler way, Tzaangors are LITERALLY not Thousand sons, the keywords do not change this in anyway shape or form, the Gors are an Auxillary force used to boost the low numbers of the Tsons, as others have stated several times, in this codex however the Aux force is now in the majority, like say, ultramarines codex having 2 HQ, a lord of war an elite and a tac squad, the rest is the guard codex thrown in, see the problem there?

Actually the old fluff had them as a huge force that Sorcerers led enmass with the Rubrics as their own personal guards instead of a major force.

Yes I mean Rubricai need more representation, and if GW wants to show that Tsons are a tiny fraction of numbers, then call this codex Tzaangors, and just leave the Tsons in the chaos dex, if they want a codex Tsons, then put some actual Tsons in it.... or effort.

Because the Thousand Sons leads the Tzaangors, the Thousand Sons owns the Planet of Sorcerers and the creatures and monsters upon it.

So lets ask you a direct question, why dont you want anymore Tsons in the Tsons codex, why are you so against it?

Because it honestly sounds like people just want "30k Legion 2.0" or "Spikey SM marines, just psychic flavor!".

There's also this slight annoyance factor given I play Slaanesh and EC, armies that tend to get overlooked in general when it comes to things. And people here are complaining that "We didn't get everything we wanted and are going to ignore the fluff of how Tsons operate, we DESERVE more"

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

andysonic1 wrote:
Death Guard: elite units supported by daemons and zombies and vehicles. Clearly unique and different from imperial armies to show their embrace of chaos. No one bats an eye, all good, cool gak.

There are only 4 or 5 units that are not some version of a PM in the DG army, PM can fill at least 3 roles have 2 variants on their Terminators,

andysonic1 wrote:
Thousand Sons: elite units supported by daemons and beastmen and chaos beasts. Clearly unique and different from imperial armies to show their embrace of chaos. RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Yes that's whats happening autistic screeching...

andysonic1 wrote:
Look, guys, I do get that you want the full range of CSM, but you aren't going to get it. You're going to get a fluffy, unique, and frankly awesome army that will work on its own and even better with daemon allys potentially, just like Death Guard. And when Emp Children is announced later this year, they will more than likely get the same treatment: elites supported by daemons and boobs and SONIC BOOM!

I hope they make what ever Iconic unit of the army you run a foot note of it in the next update.

andysonic1 wrote:
This is what your army is now. I honestly cannot fathom how this thread has gone on so long. Either embrace the new fluff of your legion or play 30k.

At least you agree with the title.

**andysonic1**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
andysonic1 wrote:
Look, guys, I do get that you want the full range of CSM, but you aren't going to get it. You're going to get a fluffy, unique, and frankly awesome army that will work on its own and even better with daemon allys potentially, just like Death Guard. And when Emp Children is announced later this year, they will more than likely get the same treatment: elites supported by daemons and boobs and SONIC BOOM!
I hope they make what ever Iconic unit of the army you run a foot note of it in the next update.

I main World Eaters bro, I'm chomping at the bit for some Khorngors or big Chaos Spawn units to compliment my Berzerkers and Kharn. I would LOVE to have a flavorful chaff unit to screen my Berzerkers and would kill for a sweet auxiliary Chaos Spawn type unit. Seriously, the lore of World Eaters is Berzerkers, Chaos Spawn, Daemons, and Cultists, and if that was the World Eaters codex in a nutshell I would be throwing money at Games Workshop hand over fist.

I think you need to start looking inward at your problem instead of outward.

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

Arachnofiend wrote:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
AegisGrimm wrote:
Why cant it be viable fluff that Thousand Sons forces are NOT just vanilla Chaos Space Marines+Better Sorcery+Blue with gold scarabs?

I don't understand why it's wrong to establish concretely that what makes them unique is that remaining Thousand Sons forces field much less Terminator and Power armor suits (at least that aren't being worn by a Sorcerer) because it's so hard to make new Rubrics/the numbers of original Rubrics are dwindling? I'm not hugely up to date with 7th edition onwards, but does this fact conflict with anything previously written about post-Heresy Thousand Sons?

Even if the new codex had a unit entry for say, squads of Thousand Sons Havoks (and somehow in this day and age of GW had something other than just 4x Soulreaper Cannons), wouldn't some of us still be adamant about how "Pfft, Tzaangors are just a cheap port of AoS models into 40k, and also they aren't Thousand Sons so they shouldn't be in the Thousand Sons codex"?

Simple: feth the lore, Rubrics are cool and that's what Thousand Sons players want to field. I can't believe I'm arguing on the same side as Thousand-Sons-Sorcerer at this point but NOBODY got into this army because they really wanted to play beastmen.

This, they can easily retcon the lore so they are able to at least maintain the numbers they have, hell watch this

Restored Sons - TS Rubrics which have been restored to their full selves, squads of 3 equip them with either Melee weapons or Heavy weapons, make them an Elites choice. Bam problem solved. they could even use the CSM box and just add some new items to it, you know like they did with the Tzaangors.

Aaaand we're right back to disagreeing again. It completely defeats the point if you're going to solve the Rubric, you're seriously not helping with the accusations that TS fans just want to play 30k. -_-

Its literally the exact same thing they did with Tzaangors AND its part of the fluff. Im not saying they should do that but its better then playing a Gor dominated army.

**Galas**

andysonic1 wrote:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
andysonic1 wrote:
Look, guys, I do get that you want the full range of CSM, but you aren't going to get it. You're going to get a fluffy, unique, and frankly awesome army that will work on its own and even better with daemon allys potentially, just like Death Guard. And when Emp Children is announced later this year, they will more than likely get the same treatment: elites supported by daemons and boobs and SONIC BOOM!
I hope they make what ever Iconic unit of the army you run a foot note of it in the next update.
I main World Eaters bro, I'm chomping at the bit for some Khorngors or big Chaos Spawn units to compliment my Berzerkers and Kharn. I would LOVE to have a flavorful chaff unit to screen my Berzerkers and would kill for a sweet auxiliary Chaos Spawn type unit. Seriously, the lore of World Eaters is Berzerkers, Chaos Spawn, Daemons, and Cultists, and if that was the World Eaters codex in a nutshell I would be throwing money at Games Workshop hand over fist.

I think you need to start looking inward at your problem instead of outward.

Just imagine a World Eaters Codex with rules and new models for Khorngorns, squads of the Blood Pact with new militarized-cultists models, etc... lovely.

**Drasius**

Formosa wrote:
First of all I will state it again and in a much simpler way, Tzaangors are LITERALLY not Thousand sons, the keywords do not change this in anyway shape or form, the Gors are an Auxillary force used to boost the low numbers of the Tsons, as others have stated several times, in this codex however the Aux force is now in the majority, like say, ultramarines codex having 2 HQ, a lord of war an elite and a tac squad, the rest is the guard codex thrown in, see the problem there?

And Manticores aren't Guardsmen, yet nobody would ever try and argue that they didn't belong in the IG dex. The TS are a small force that has been whittled down over the millenia along with losing various memebers to defectors to other legions or their own splinter warbands and even if you can resummon rubricae, you can't make new sorcerors and the recruiting of defectors from imperial chapters would be rare to say the least. It's stated in the fluff that the beastmen are there as chaff, so why do you not want them in the dex? It doesn't stop you playing pure sons if that's what you want, you can still take sorcs, rubricae and scarabs with or without vehicle support.

Formosa wrote:
Yes I mean Rubricai need more representation, and if GW wants to show that Tsons are a tiny fraction of numbers, then call this codex Tzaangors, and just leave the Tsons in the chaos dex, if they want a codex Tsons, then put some actual Tsons in it.... or effort.

Again, I'm not sure why you think rubricae need more representation? They're basically golems IN SPACE!, there to serve their ~~wizard~~ psycher masters. They are there as background to the main focus of the legions which is the HQ casters. Tzaangors are the same, expendable chaff to keep nasty punchy things away from your squishy space wizards.

Formosa wrote:
Maybe legions can only do what you say, but then why do they follow the codex makeup of codex marines so closely, this has been an issue since 3rd to my memory, spikey marines or marines -1, thankfully the new codex isnt as crap as the old ones, but is still just spikey marines, its chaos, chapters or legions, both are very poorly represented compared to the fluff.

Yes and no. With the advent of 30k, CSM are basically vet squads and the woofs also follow a bit of the same design as CSM which harkens back to ye olde days.

Formosa wrote:
Hellblasters are stated to be a throwback to the legions makeup, special weapon squads basically, same with LTS and centurions, so space marines now have a legion unit (variation) because Guilliman came back, yet the same legionaries that fought in the great crusade decided "nah, I like the look of that codex right there, lets change our makeup to match that" yet another disconnect with the background and the game, being primaris is irrelevent, the fact its just a special weapons squad with a different name is what matters.

Actually, given that the mainstay of most legions were squads of bolter boys, having the sons go for as long as they did with no upgrades was actually sticking more closely to the fluff than anything else. IIRC, Sons can also do a solid impression of a flamer support squad with their warp flamers. Again, the CSM "tactical" equivalent is basically vet squads, especially back when they could take a special rule like infiltrate or counter attack. I do agree that it's odd that we don't have full squads of heavy weapons, though I suspect that's more of a combination of legacy issues of being spikey marines and partly due to balance issues (since even loyalists don't have pure heavy weapons squads).

Formosa wrote:
So lets ask you a direct question, why dont you want anymore Tsons in the Tsons codex, why are you so against it?

I'm not the one you asked, but I'm going to answer anyway - It doesn't fit the fluff. Everything we've read has rubricae toting bolters and that's about it. Personally, given the fluff of "only the best psychers got to have terminator armour", I even question how and why we got scarab occult, but at least I can handwave that away as rubricae being summoned into terminator armour or a handful of the "elite" psychers being off guard or weakened enough for the rubric to dust them. The ~~return of Sorceror Lords~~ addition of Exalted Sorcerors was a welcome change, and one I feel that was badly needed as part of their factional identity though.

I'll turn it around for you though - Why are you so against the addition of a fluffy option like Tzaangors?

**andysonic1**

Galas wrote:
andysonic1 wrote:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
andysonic1 wrote:
Look, guys, I do get that you want the full range of CSM, but you aren't going to get it. You're going to get a fluffy, unique, and frankly awesome army that will work on its own and even better with daemon allys potentially, just like Death Guard. And when Emp Children is announced later this year, they will more than likely get the same treatment: elites supported by daemons and boobs and SONIC BOOM!
I hope they make what ever Iconic unit of the army you run a foot note of it in the next update.
I main World Eaters bro, I'm chomping at the bit for some Khorngors or big Chaos Spawn units to compliment my Berzerkers and Kharn. I would LOVE to have a flavorful chaff unit to screen my Berzerkers and would kill for a sweet auxiliary Chaos Spawn type unit. Seriously, the lore of World Eaters is Berzerkers, Chaos Spawn, Daemons, and Cultists, and if that was the World Eaters codex in a nutshell I would be throwing money at Games Workshop hand over fist.

I think you need to start looking inward at your problem instead of outward.
Just imagine a World Eaters Codex with rules and new models for Khorngorns, squads of the Blood Pact with new militarized-cultists models, etc... lovely.

UGH, veterans of Vraks led by Zhufor, Khorngors from Angron's Daemon World, character melee Helbrutes. The list goes on and on with the additions to the army. I can't wait.

**AegisGrimm**

I pose the question: When a World Eaters codex comes out should it have options for squads full of heavy weapons or special weapons? Other 30k Legion-makeup stuff like sniper squads, etc?

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

andysonic1 wrote:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
andysonic1 wrote:
Look, guys, I do get that you want the full range of CSM, but you aren't going to get it. You're going to get a fluffy, unique, and frankly awesome army that will work on its own and even better with daemon allys potentially, just like Death Guard. And when Emp Children is announced later this year, they will more than likely get the same treatment: elites supported by daemons and boobs and SONIC BOOM!
I hope they make what ever Iconic unit of the army you run a foot note of it in the next update.
I main World Eaters bro, I'm chomping at the bit for some Khorngors or big Chaos Spawn units to compliment my Berzerkers and Kharn. I would LOVE to have a flavorful chaff unit to screen my Berzerkers and would kill for a sweet auxiliary Chaos Spawn type unit. Seriously, the lore of World Eaters is Berzerkers, Chaos Spawn, Daemons, and Cultists, and if that was the World Eaters codex in a nutshell I would be throwing money at Games Workshop hand over fist.

I think you need to start looking inward at your problem instead of outward.

Again you agree that TS as they were on the TT are dead.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AegisGrimm wrote:
I pose the question: When a World Eaters codex comes out should it have options for squads full of heavy weapons or special weapons? Other 30k Legion-makeup stuff like sniper squads, etc?

Totally irrelevant WE are not a Shooty Psyker army they are the exact opposite of that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Galas wrote:
andysonic1 wrote:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
andysonic1 wrote:
Look, guys, I do get that you want the full range of CSM, but you aren't going to get it. You're going to get a fluffy, unique, and frankly awesome army that will work on its own and even better with daemon allys potentially, just like Death Guard. And when Emp Children is announced later this year, they will more than likely get the same treatment: elites supported by daemons and boobs and SONIC BOOM!
I hope they make what ever Iconic unit of the army you run a foot note of it in the next update.
I main World Eaters bro, I'm chomping at the bit for some Khorngors or big Chaos Spawn units to compliment my Berzerkers and Kharn. I would LOVE to have a flavorful chaff unit to screen my Berzerkers and would kill for a sweet auxiliary Chaos Spawn type unit. Seriously, the lore of World Eaters is Berzerkers, Chaos Spawn, Daemons, and Cultists, and if that was the World Eaters codex in a nutshell I would be throwing money at Games Workshop hand over fist.

I think you need to start looking inward at your problem instead of outward.

Just imagine a World Eaters Codex with rules and new models for Khorngorns, squads of the Blood Pact with new militarized-cultists models, etc... lovely.

Yes all them them shooty maybe 1 unit that has CC capabilities, the rest will be ranged weapons only, with heavy weapon squads.

**Daedalus81**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
andysonic1 wrote:
Death Guard: elite units supported by daemons and zombies and vehicles. Clearly unique and different from imperial armies to show their embrace of chaos. No one bats an eye, all good, cool gak.

There are only 4 or 5 units that are not some version of a PM in the DG army, PM can fill at least 3 roles have 2 variants on their Terminators,

Mmm...not really?

NOT DG
Cultists
Land Raider
Chaos Lord
Chaos Lord in TA
Predator
Rhino
Spawn
DP
Defiler
Bloat Drone
Helbrute
Blight Hauler
Crawler
Possessed
Pox Walkers
Sorcerer
Sorcerer in TA

And then...

Putrifier
Blightspawn
Lord of Contagion
Plaguecaster
Blightbringer
Plague Surgeon
Tallyman

Blightlords
Deathshroud
Plague Marines

These are the units people are complaining about not getting for the most part - e.g. Rubrics with different weapons. But here we have three "Death Guard" units. I don't see jump pack DG or devastator DG in there.

**andysonic1**

AegisGrimm wrote:
I pose the question: When a World Eaters codex comes out should it have options for squads full of heavy weapons or special weapons? Other 30k Legion-makeup stuff like sniper squads, etc?

Why would it? That wouldn't represent the World Eaters Legion of 40k.

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Galas wrote:
andysonic1 wrote:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
andysonic1 wrote:
Look, guys, I do get that you want the full range of CSM, but you aren't going to get it. You're going to get a fluffy, unique, and frankly awesome army that will work on its own and even better with daemon allys potentially, just like Death Guard. And when Emp Children is announced later this year, they will more than likely get the same treatment: elites supported by daemons and boobs and SONIC BOOM!
I hope they make what ever Iconic unit of the army you run a foot note of it in the next update.
I main World Eaters bro, I'm chomping at the bit for some Khorngors or big Chaos Spawn units to compliment my Berzerkers and Kharn. I would LOVE to have a flavorful chaff unit to screen my Berzerkers and would kill for a sweet auxiliary Chaos Spawn type unit. Seriously, the lore of World Eaters is Berzerkers, Chaos Spawn, Daemons, and Cultists, and if that was the World Eaters codex in a nutshell I would be throwing money at Games Workshop hand over fist.

I think you need to start looking inward at your problem instead of outward.
Just imagine a World Eaters Codex with rules and new models for Khorngorns, squads of the Blood Pact with new militarized-cultists models, etc... lovely.
Yes all them them shooty maybe 1 unit that has CC capabilities, the rest will be ranged weapons only, with heavy weapon squads.

Yes because that is exactly what is happening with Death Guard and Thousand Sons oh wait no it isn't they got fluffy units for those slots that fit the theme as well as gaps the base elite army has. A more realistic comparison is Khorngors, Daemon Engines or Giant Chaos Spawn, and / or military cultists like Galas was saying, and yes all could be shooty with some CC just like, gasp, Skull Cannons, and it wouldn't be the end of the world. In fact it would, gasp, fill gaps the base elite army has.

**Formosa**

Drasius wrote:
Formosa wrote:
First of all I will state it again and in a much simpler way, Tzaangors are LITERALLY not Thousand sons, the keywords do not change this in anyway shape or form, the Gors are an Auxillary force used to boost the low numbers of the Tsons, as others have stated several times, in this codex however the Aux force is now in the majority, like say, ultramarines codex having 2 HQ, a lord of war an elite and a tac squad, the rest is the guard codex thrown in, see the problem there?

And Manticores aren't Guardsmen, yet nobody would ever try and argue that they didn't belong in the IG dex. The TS are a small force that has been whittled down over the millenia along with losing various memebers to defectors to other legions or their own splinter warbands and even if you can resummon rubricae, you can't make new sorcerors and the recruiting of defectors from imperial chapters would be rare to say the least. It's stated in the fluff that the beastmen are there as chaff, so why do you not want them in the dex? It doesn't stop you playing pure sons if that's what you want, you can still take sorcs, rubricae and scarabs with or without vehicle support.

Formosa wrote:
Yes I mean Rubricai need more representation, and if GW wants to show that Tsons are a tiny fraction of numbers, then call this codex Tzaangors, and just leave the Tsons in the chaos dex, if they want a codex Tsons, then put some actual Tsons in it.... or effort.

Again, I'm not sure why you think rubricae need more representation? They're basically golems IN SPACE!, there to serve their ~~wizard~~ psycher masters. They are there as background to the main focus of the legions which is the HQ casters. Tzaangors are the same, expendable chaff to keep nasty punchy things away from your squishy space wizards.

Formosa wrote:
Maybe legions can only do what you say, but then why do they follow the codex makeup of codex marines so closely, this has been an issue since 3rd to my memory, spikey marines or marines -1, thankfully the new codex isnt as crap as the old ones, but is still just spikey marines, its chaos, chapters or legions, both are very poorly represented compared to the fluff.

Yes and no. With the advent of 30k, CSM are basically vet squads and the woofs also follow a bit of the same design as CSM which harkens back to ye olde days.

Formosa wrote:
Hellblasters are stated to be a throwback to the legions makeup, special weapon squads basically, same with LTS and centurions, so space marines now have a legion unit (variation) because Guilliman came back, yet the same legionaries that fought in the great crusade decided "nah, I like the look of that codex right there, lets change our makeup to match that" yet another disconnect with the background and the game, being primaris is irrelevent, the fact its just a special weapons squad with a different name is what matters.

Actually, given that the mainstay of most legions were squads of bolter boys, having the sons go for as long as they did with no upgrades was actually sticking more closely to the fluff than anything else. IIRC, Sons can also do a solid impression of a flamer support squad with their warp flamers. Again, the CSM "tactical" equivalent is basically vet squads, especially back when they could take a special rule like infiltrate or counter attack. I do agree that it's odd that we don't have full squads of heavy weapons, though I suspect that's more of a combination of legacy issues of being spikey marines and partly due to balance issues (since even loyalists don't have pure heavy weapons squads).

Formosa wrote:
So lets ask you a direct question, why dont you want anymore Tsons in the Tsons codex, why are you so against it?

I'm not the one you asked, but I'm going to answer anyway - It doesn't fit the fluff. Everything we've read has rubricae toting bolters and that's about it. Personally, given the fluff of "only the best psychers got to have terminator armour", I even question how and why we got scarab occult, but at least I can handwave that away as rubricae being summoned into terminator armour or a handful of the "elite" psychers being off guard or weakened enough for the rubric to dust them. The ~~return of Sorceror Lords~~ addition of Exalted Sorcerors was a welcome change, and one I feel that was badly needed as part of their factional identity though.

I'll turn it around for you though - Why are you so against the addition of a fluffy option like Tzaangors?

I will try to say this politely, read the thread, my posts specifically, then come back and to me, I have said repeatedly I like tzaangors and like they are added to the book

To your other statements, tzaangors have not been part of the fluff since 2nd, now they are back, cool, that good, more models, nice ones at that, but don't pretend "they have always been there" because I have yet to see them ever mentioned in 40k since 3rd, beastmen sure, but not tzaangors, khornegors, slaangors or pestigors, they were pretty much squatted until recently.

Your example of the guard doesn't work in the slightest and isn't even referencing what I'm talking about, you can't throw an ork into the space Marine codex and give it the "astartes" keyword then claim it's a space Marine, tzaangors are not thousand sons, they are aux troops, that's it, adding the "thousand sons" keyword does not suddenly make them space Marines, finding it hard that people are not getting that, especially when I said "literally" are not thousand sons.

I want more rubricai for the simple reason that these units should already be in the book, if they can hand wave sekmets into being rubrics, then why can't we have rubrics in other slots, im yet to see a valid fluff reason for why certain units cannot exist, as you say Tsons only had bolters until recently and suddenly they got some heresy era kit, as soon as that was introduced it created this very issue, if it had stayed just bolters I would be agreeing with you, but now I'm like "if they have these weapons, why are they not useing them as they have been trained to?" It made no sense, I do agree that it seems to be a legacy "spikey marine" issue, but as I said earlier in the thread, this book was a great opportunity to add more character to the Tsons, bulk out the Rubrics a bit, instead we have gotten a major focus on tzaangors, which is wrong for a thousand sons codex.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
andysonic1 wrote:
Death Guard: elite units supported by daemons and zombies and vehicles. Clearly unique and different from imperial armies to show their embrace of chaos. No one bats an eye, all good, cool gak.

There are only 4 or 5 units that are not some version of a PM in the DG army, PM can fill at least 3 roles have 2 variants on their Terminators,

Mmm...not really?

NOT DG
Cultists
Land Raider
Chaos Lord
Chaos Lord in TA
Predator
Rhino
Spawn
DP
Defiler
Bloat Drone
Helbrute
Blight Hauler
Crawler
Possessed
Pox Walkers
Sorcerer
Sorcerer in TA

And then...

Putrifier
Blightspawn
Lord of Contagion
Plaguecaster
Blightbringer
Plague Surgeon
Tallyman

Blightlords
Deathshroud
Plague Marines

These are the units people are complaining about not getting for the most part - e.g. Rubrics with different weapons. But here we have three "Death Guard" units. I don't see jump pack DG or devastator DG in there.

In all fairness DG players were complaining at the lack of havoc squads, both a fluffy unit and historically one that death guard had, until that book dropped (and the index iirc), also I've seen several DG players complain about the straight port of Chaos marine units that were not buffed to have the death guard bonus (like toughness 5 chaos lord for example), it seems they made the DG specific units and then just copy pasted the rest, another wasted optunity and frankly a big snafu.