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 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I still remember when T-Sons were a strong contender when Rubrics had 2 wounds a piece (and back then invul saves, FnP, and even instant death were all VERY rare) and the sorceror didn't cost as much as a naked chaos lord. Hell even the 3rd edition T-Sons were a force to be reckoned with, as they were flat out immune to S5 weapons if I remember correctly. And that was just their basic troops.

What's more frustrating is that while T-Sons in older editions were restricted by the mentality that there shouldn't be psyker spam (this is pre-5th edition GK codex), recent codexes basically gave it to other factions when T-Sons were the original Psyker-spam army. Plus I think it salts the wound more when Deathguard got a whole slew of new toys (even considering the tzaangors and terminators, Death Guard still have more in the form of two new tanks and the drone) but T-Sons only got a reboxing of some old AoS junk no one remembered existed.

That was the 3rd Ed codex and I remember it, they could indeed only be wounded by str5 or more weapons, and at the time chaos had NO invuns for its characters at all, was a crazy time

Then 3.5 came and again we had some ok ish Tsons units, the Book of Tzeench had some really cool fluffy options and that tiny little thing had a lot more effort put into it that the entire new codex.

then the dark times of chaos came........

book after book GW messed up chaos, people at the time said they were fine, said things were not as bad as we thought, said that we were overreacting and be happy with what we got........ yeah, sounds familiar doesnt it

I was never fine with the 4th edition book. I swung my cane like a madman at it

Also for what is a measure of "old", the Mutalith Vortex Beast predated 7th edition 40k (and I think even 6th edition.). That is pretty old.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I still remember when T-Sons were a strong contender when Rubrics had 2 wounds a piece (and back then invul saves, FnP, and even instant death were all VERY rare) and the sorceror didn't cost as much as a naked chaos lord. Hell even the 3rd edition T-Sons were a force to be reckoned with, as they were flat out immune to S5 weapons if I remember correctly. And that was just their basic troops.

What's more frustrating is that while T-Sons in older editions were restricted by the mentality that there shouldn't be psyker spam (this is pre-5th edition GK codex), recent codexes basically gave it to other factions when T-Sons were the original Psyker-spam army. Plus I think it salts the wound more when Deathguard got a whole slew of new toys (even considering the tzaangors and terminators, Death Guard still have more in the form of two new tanks and the drone) but T-Sons only got a reboxing of some old AoS junk no one remembered existed.

3E Rubrics were immune to S4 and under...

I do miss that dex a bit, I ran a full Slaanesh list back then, do hope if EC show up we'll get some nice stuff.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

What's more frustrating is that while T-Sons in older editions were restricted by the mentality that there shouldn't be psyker spam (this is pre-5th edition GK codex), recent codexes basically gave it to other factions when T-Sons were the original Psyker-spam army. Plus I think it salts the wound more when Deathguard got a whole slew of new toys (even considering the tzaangors and terminators, Death Guard still have more in the form of two new tanks and the drone) but T-Sons only got a reboxing of some old AoS junk no one remembered existed.

Didn't they tell you?
Nothing should be a thing in this game, unless IoM has it.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

What's more frustrating is that while T-Sons in older editions were restricted by the mentality that there shouldn't be psyker spam (this is pre-5th edition GK codex), recent codexes basically gave it to other factions when T-Sons were the original Psyker-spam army. Plus I think it salts the wound more when Deathguard got a whole slew of new toys (even considering the tzaangors and terminators, Death Guard still have more in the form of two new tanks and the drone) but T-Sons only got a reboxing of some old AoS junk no one remembered existed.

Didn't they tell you?
Nothing should be a thing in this game, unless IoM has it.

So true

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
What's more frustrating is that while T-Sons in older editions were restricted by the mentality that there shouldn't be psyker spam (this is pre-5th edition GK codex), recent codexes basically gave it to other factions when T-Sons were the original Psyker-spam army. Plus I think it salts the wound more when Deathguard got a whole slew of new toys (even considering the tzaangors and terminators, Death Guard still have more in the form of two new tanks and the drone) but T-Sons only got a reboxing of some old AoS junk no one remembered existed.

Agreed and exalted.

I don't mind not having new models as much as a proper codex TS representation but models-wise you are totally right...

- Death Guard: 18 separate boxes + Dark Imperium models (Those all are in total 61 different models: 1 primarch, 10 characters, 4 vehicles, 11 terminators, 19 plague marines and 16 plague zombies)

- Thousand Sons: 6 separate boxes (Those are 30 different models: 1 primarch, 4 characters, 5 terminators, 10 rubric marines and 10 tzaangors) (Tzaangors box is debatable because it is actualy intended for not-fantasy)

2 x number of different models and 3 x number of separate boxes released.

Best part of this is that as people is saying right now, because the TS range is "complete", we won't see anything for them in 10+ years and everybody will be happy...

So... yeah

 MinscS2 wrote:
Let's be real here for a second. Thousand Sons were one of the weakest legions in the 3.5 codex. (I started playing them back then. Mostly because of the model's, less for the competitive rules.)

Speaking for myself, i really don't care about rules power. Otherwise i would not be playing with this army since 3rd edition. I play or collect them because their background and in a lesser degree their models. I was not playing in 7th edition but as i understand, they should be powerful then and it seems that many people jumped to the TS without really caring or knowing very much about fluff or anything else but the rules... Maybe that explain why there are all those strange opinions of "it doesn't matter, you have a lot of new models and options!!"

 Formosa wrote:

Then 3.5 came and again we had some ok ish Tsons units, the Book of Tzeench had some really cool fluffy options and that tiny little thing had a lot more effort put into it than the entire new codex.

This. Just this. Fully agreed. Exalted.

That summarizes all my gripes with this codex.

 Formosa wrote:

then the dark times of chaos came........ book after book GW messed up chaos, people at the time said they were fine, said things were not as bad as we thought, said that we were overreacting and be happy with what we got........ yeah, sounds familiar doesnt it

Yes, it does indeed.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I still remember when T-Sons were a strong contender when Rubrics had 2 wounds a piece (and back then invul saves, FnP, and even instant death were all VERY rare) and the sorceror didn't cost as much as a naked chaos lord. Hell even the 3rd edition T-Sons were a force to be reckoned with, as they were flat out immune to S5 weapons if I remember correctly. And that was just their basic troops.

What's more frustrating is that while T-Sons in older editions were restricted by the mentality that there shouldn't be psyker spam (this is pre-5th edition GK codex), recent codexes basically gave it to other factions when T-Sons were the original Psyker-spam army. Plus I think it salts the wound more when Deathguard got a whole slew of new toys (even considering the tzaangors and terminators, Death Guard still have more in the form of two new tanks and the drone) but T-Sons only got a reboxing of some old AoS junk no one remembered existed.

3E Rubrics were immune to S4 and under...

I do miss that dex a bit, I ran a full Slaanesh list back then, do hope if EC show up we'll get some nice stuff.

Ah I tripped over my tongue there. I meant to say immune to "S5 or lower" weapons, but I must have misremembered it including S5 as well. I think it was due to the old Grotesques having the similar rule "cannot be killed except by things that inflict instant death", which made them only affected by S6+ weapons. My bad.

 Warpspy wrote:

- Death Guard: 18 separate boxes + Dark Imperium models (Those all are in total 61 different models: 1 primarch, 10 characters, 4 vehicles, 11 terminators, 19 plague marines and 16 plague zombies)

- Thousand Sons: 6 separate boxes (Those are 30 different models: 1 primarch, 4 characters, 5 terminators, 10 rubric marines and 10 tzaangors) (Tzaangors box is debatable because it is actualy intended for not-fantasy)

2 x number of different models and 3 x number of separate boxes released.

Best part of this is that as people is saying right now, because the TS range is "complete", we won't see anything for them in 10+ years and everybody will be happy...

We're all very aware. But we also understand that there is a limited window for model releases and there is no way GW was going to be able to expand TS the same way as DG at this point in time.

DG got lucky to be the poster boy bad guy of the edition. Regardless we got a decent book and it's time to move on with out lives while we wait for things to shake out further.

If we need to fight for 16 point Rubrics and 5 man soulreapers then we do that. But this thread needs to die, because it's like listening to Tina Belcher moan at this point.

Quick poll here:

if Thousand Sons did not have the VOTLW rule, and instead had a stratagem called "Inferno Bolt Firestorm" that read "1CP: in the shooting phase, one unit's Inferno Bolters, Warpflamers, Heavy Warpflamers, Soulreaper Cannons, and Hellfyre Missile racks get +1 to wound rolls for the phase"...would you be happier?

Or how about if the Mutalith Beast was instead a new Thousand Sons specific Daemon Engine using a reboxed Fantasy Necrosphinx?

 Warpspy wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
What's more frustrating is that while T-Sons in older editions were restricted by the mentality that there shouldn't be psyker spam (this is pre-5th edition GK codex), recent codexes basically gave it to other factions when T-Sons were the original Psyker-spam army. Plus I think it salts the wound more when Deathguard got a whole slew of new toys (even considering the tzaangors and terminators, Death Guard still have more in the form of two new tanks and the drone) but T-Sons only got a reboxing of some old AoS junk no one remembered existed.

Agreed and exalted.

I don't mind not having new models as much as a proper codex TS representation but models-wise you are totally right...

- Death Guard: 18 separate boxes + Dark Imperium models (Those all are in total 61 different models: 1 primarch, 10 characters, 4 vehicles, 11 terminators, 19 plague marines and 16 plague zombies)

- Thousand Sons: 6 separate boxes (Those are 30 different models: 1 primarch, 4 characters, 5 terminators, 10 rubric marines and 10 tzaangors) (Tzaangors box is debatable because it is actualy intended for not-fantasy)

2 x number of different models and 3 x number of separate boxes released.

Best part of this is that as people is saying right now, because the TS range is "complete", we won't see anything for them in 10+ years and everybody will be happy...

Which they attempted to address by giving some of the AoS gor stuff a port to 40k, as between filling out custodes to a proper army, DG being a new faction, and imperial space marines getting their ever constant release, things were a bit tight. That's while ignoring the AoS and daemons releases which are occurring. Plus whatever is coming late spring/early summer. The release schedule is a bit tight, a lot of armies got nothing new.

Guys, all you have to do to understand why TS didn't get new Rubrics is look at the timeframe. A production cycle is about 2-3 years. The new TS kits are a year old right? That means GW would have had to start designing new kits as soon as they finished the other ones to even possibly get them ready by now. But that would slow down progress on other lines that they needed/wanted to work on. Saying "GW could have easily added a kit or two" is actually false because they physically couldn't fit them in the schedule at all. Instead, they gave you more Tzaangors to help diversify your lists (if you want them).

You're just victims of production constraints, not malice or neglect on GW's part. Comparing yourselves to Primaris, Death Guard and Custodes is disingenuous because no one else got any new kits. GW were maxed out.

Pointing this out does not mean people are actively trying to hamstring TS, nor are they defending GW intentionally screwing over a faction. The fact that Primaris were overcosted means that the design team makes honest mistakes, which is probably what happened to Rubrics.

You can still think it sucks and it probably does, but you won't get any sympathy from other players because they have their own problems to deal with.

the_scotsman wrote:
Quick poll here:

if Thousand Sons did not have the VOTLW rule, and instead had a stratagem called "Inferno Bolt Firestorm" that read "1CP: in the shooting phase, one unit's Inferno Bolters, Warpflamers, Heavy Warpflamers, Soulreaper Cannons, and Hellfyre Missile racks get +1 to wound rolls for the phase"...would you be happier?

Or how about if the Mutalith Beast was instead a new Thousand Sons specific Daemon Engine using a reboxed Fantasy Necrosphinx?

Since VotLW was already in the wild and expected it would have to be something different. +1 damage or w/e.

I'm reasonably happy. I would have liked more, but there's enough to keep me busy.

the_scotsman wrote:
Quick poll here:

if Thousand Sons did not have the VOTLW rule, and instead had a stratagem called "Inferno Bolt Firestorm" that read "1CP: in the shooting phase, one unit's Inferno Bolters, Warpflamers, Heavy Warpflamers, Soulreaper Cannons, and Hellfyre Missile racks get +1 to wound rolls for the phase"...would you be happier?

Or how about if the Mutalith Beast was instead a new Thousand Sons specific Daemon Engine using a reboxed Fantasy Necrosphinx?

I would actually be up a wall in happiness if the latter was the case. Thousand Sons were known to have automata back on prospero and having a daemon engine simulacra, especially one of a set that was already incorporated into a lot of T-Sons conversions, would have been awesome.

However this would differ from the mutalith beast in that the Necrosphinx would need, at the very least, a sprue recut since spoopy scary skeletons aren't on the menu. Still, it would slide much better since it at least showed an effort to keep it T-Sons, rather than "Generic Tzeentch Marine Army 3506"

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Warpspy wrote:

- Death Guard: 18 separate boxes + Dark Imperium models (Those all are in total 61 different models: 1 primarch, 10 characters, 4 vehicles, 11 terminators, 19 plague marines and 16 plague zombies)

- Thousand Sons: 6 separate boxes (Those are 30 different models: 1 primarch, 4 characters, 5 terminators, 10 rubric marines and 10 tzaangors) (Tzaangors box is debatable because it is actualy intended for not-fantasy)

2 x number of different models and 3 x number of separate boxes released.

Best part of this is that as people is saying right now, because the TS range is "complete", we won't see anything for them in 10+ years and everybody will be happy...

We're all very aware. But we also understand that there is a limited window for model releases and there is no way GW was going to be able to expand TS the same way as DG at this point in time.

DG got lucky to be the poster boy bad guy of the edition. Regardless we got a decent book and it's time to move on with out lives while we wait for things to shake out further.

If we need to fight for 16 point Rubrics and 5 man soulreapers then we do that. But this thread needs to die, because it's like listening to Tina Belcher moan at this point.

Rulewise? ofc not.

Because that strat is a clear downgrade of the VOTLW that was rather obivous we're supposed to get, and that new engine is still only supporting the gors.

Modelwise, yes, a bit.


Pleasing us, rule wise, would have been really easy even without models.
Yea, with even a tiny bit of models they could have made us bliss, but making us happy really took little, and didn't even require the sigmar model ports.


Had the mutalit been decent at supporting dust units, it would have been good-but they only support gors.

If there were good strats for dusts it would be nice, but the only dust-only strat is really bad, the "turn to rust" one is also horrible and everything else is either directly related to mutants, or just better for than than to the dusts.

The resons why we are upset can be sorted into the following, at least for the reasonable expectation players:

1-the stratagems, relics, and other support mechanics actually support a gor army, rather than a dust army.
The best stratagems, webway infiltration and cycle of slaughter. one is gor exclusive, another works better for gors than anyone else. then you got some "PA sons" strats who are just outright bad.
The inferno bolt stratagem should have effect all relevant guns on the model rather than just one (even then its iffy), the soul flare should have been a 2+ rather than a 4+ to be noteworthy and beam...given only the warlord can even use it shouuld also probably trigger at 2+ (and 4+ on characters) the mutants, on the other end, gets the best CC start in the game (2 cp attack twice)
The relics, lets just say are not a good work. the helm and crystal are great, but the 3 weapons are rather poor (especially the staff, why on earth would you care about disengaging and shooting/charging with a sorcerer?) and the scrolls from CA are still worthless.
The mutalit buffs are good for gors, not for dusts. the gors also got exclusive aura from shamans. spells also effect them better due to numbers rule. etc.


2-the spells the dust units DID get, are not spells they actually want. each of them is bad (firestorm), good only when used on someone else (doombolt), or best when used by someone else (everything else), with the few spells that would actually be good for them well locked in the other disciplines. so, if you got more than 2-3 dust squads, you quickly run out of spells to give them.
Couple it with the fact they did nothing to help them mitigate the massive danger that is perils for them (other than having magnus around I guess), and they are still not going to cast all that often-its too risky for too little gain.

3-the dust units got 0 intresting rules, and the prexistance of such rules is already in 30k, and had a hint of it in 7th. they could EASILY port some version of the "thousand sons cults"
For example they could introduce cults by having our aura HQs (magnus, ahriman, dp and exalted) project one of five auras depending on cult.
Easy cults: corvidate rr1 hits even if only at shooting, raptora rr1 invul, athenean a LD boost of sorts, pyrae something to support flamers (gun range boost for example, effecting all guns to be less one-dimentinal), pavoni something to boost CC (+S? +A? both as actual rubrics suck at CC?). lets say magnus gets them all because he's magnus (instead of his current aura, as awesome it is), and costs more to compensate. ahriman naturally locked into corvidae
That's just one example of many. its flavorful, it gives multiple "leader" a reason to exist, and it allows for different types of lists. you might need to bump a few point costs up to correlate for the choice, and maybe look out for the possibility of combining them getting out of hand-but that's balancing issues not concepts issues and its not like other armies don't have multiple auras
They could have told FW to do a simul-release of a dataslate for orisons to get us psyker dreadnauts that they KNEW we wanted for a long time, it would cost them nothing, not even book space, and it would make people happy even if the dataslate wasn't very good.
They could make a spin-off of some model (probably the exalted) that is easily converted like they did the grandmaster dreadknight. ESPECIALLY the exalteds, given how they are sold in packs of 3 and its currently insane to even consider having 3.
There are MANY ways they could make the PA side of the codex more interesting and engaging rulewise without needing any new models. it took me all of five minutes to come up with the random nonsense I wrote here. a team that's actually his work and got himself a few hours to work on the codex can easily come up with more and better.

4-the legion tactic itself, is poor. really poor.
It doesn't come up often to begin with, and it provides zero "numerical advantage", just a minor tactical one.
To make it worse, many units dont even CARE about the tactic. its bad for all marines that all the armor devision is basically identical regardless of what legion you are, but for TS even the cultists and helbrute are identical to generic <whatever> ones without any trait.
The only reason why gors are taken as TS, is because they have to be. the legion tactics don't even effect them. they could be a part of a generic <chaos> dethachment and be mechanically identical, so beisdes being given the keyword-how are they thousand sons?
The tactic should have effected more widely, even something as silly as "6+ invul if oyu dont have one" at least would salvage helbrutes and cultists from being irrelevant-they wouldn't be good, but they would have a reason. 6+ versus mortal wounds in the psyker phase (the very thing custodians got as part of thier tactics) would also been a good option-it helps protect against perils, and expands on the psyker dominance by the fact using magic against them isn't as useful.
The list goes infinitly on for minor things they could have done to make the non-casters actually be TS rather than generic <chaos> dudes as far as rules are bothered. even something tiny that's practically a sidenote and might never come up would feel better than nothing at all.
But the current trait means that if you don't cast-you got no trait. if you are in range anyway-you got no trait.


These are the four points that ACTUALLY bother the TS playerbase.
They can be summed up in that it mostly reeks of laziness and pushing the ported AoS line rather than doing anything for the existing TS.
The army list for the "most competetive" TS builds shapes up to look like princes for HQs, gors for troops, bowgors for FA, mutalits for HS and not a single dude in PA/termi to be seen-except MAYBE ahriman or a one-of termi sorcerer.
And not because we all love the goats so much, but beacuse the entire codex is geared towards making them good, while giving barely any attention to dusts.

Dandelion wrote:
Guys, all you have to do to understand why TS didn't get new Rubrics is look at the timeframe. A production cycle is about 2-3 years. The new TS kits are a year old right? That means GW would have had to start designing new kits as soon as they finished the other ones to even possibly get them ready by now. But that would slow down progress on other lines that they needed/wanted to work on. Saying "GW could have easily added a kit or two" is actually false because they physically couldn't fit them in the schedule at all. Instead, they gave you more Tzaangors to help diversify your lists (if you want them).

You're just victims of production constraints, not malice or neglect on GW's part. Comparing yourselves to Primaris, Death Guard and Custodes is disingenuous because no one else got any new kits. GW were maxed out.

Pointing this out does not mean people are actively trying to hamstring TS, nor are they defending GW intentionally screwing over a faction. The fact that Primaris were overcosted means that the design team makes honest mistakes, which is probably what happened to Rubrics.

You can still think it sucks and it probably does, but you won't get any sympathy from other players because they have their own problems to deal with.

You are right, models take time to make etc. Now watch this


Heavy support:

Rubricai havoc squad
Unit 4-9 rubric marines, 1 aspiring sorcerer
Options: up to 4 rubric marines may take, heavy bolter with inferno bolts, autocannons, lascannons etc.

Elites:
Rubric special weapon squad
Up to 4 rubric marines

Etc. Etc.

So with no effort at all, I've just make the 1 existing kit fill 3 different roles in the army, no model cycle involved, no new kits needed.

 BoomWolf wrote:


Rulewise? ofc not.

Because that strat is a clear downgrade of the VOTLW that was rather obivous we're supposed to get, and that new engine is still only supporting the gors.

Modelwise, yes, a bit.

Absolutely agreed. You only have to look at the disparity between an exalted and a DP.

1-the stratagems, relics, and other support mechanics actually support a gor army, rather than a dust army.

I still think this is a perception thing. The strats support rubrics as much as gors and it's a choice between melee vs ranged; durable vs plentiful.
Cycle of Slaughter is indeed a boneheaded addition, but it's a matter opinion on Webway being "better for gors".

The relics, lets just say are not a good work. the helm and crystal are great, but the 3 weapons are rather poor (especially the staff, why on earth would you care about disengaging and shooting/charging with a sorcerer?) and the scrolls from CA are still worthless.

I would like to see them make the SoT sorc a character and give him the staff and have it affect the whole unit, but that is a pipe dream.

The mutalit buffs are good for gors, not for dusts. the gors also got exclusive aura from shamans. spells also effect them better due to numbers rule. etc.

Mostly, yes, but I can see a lot of mileage on SoT, too. Gors get that bonus, but now you're cluttering your list with 2 or 3 shamans that don't fill HQ to make them operate and you can't deepstrike a shaman so any Webway gors are unable to alpha strike properly.

2-the spells the dust units DID get, are not spells they actually want. each of them is bad (firestorm), good only when used on someone else (doombolt), or best when used by someone else (everything else), with the few spells that would actually be good for them well locked in the other disciplines. so, if you got more than 2-3 dust squads, you quickly run out of spells to give them.
Couple it with the fact they did nothing to help them mitigate the massive danger that is perils for them (other than having magnus around I guess), and they are still not going to cast all that often-its too risky for too little gain.

I'm a little torn. People like to rag on Firestorm, but a 24" character snipe is pretty damn good. Yes, they're going to be hard to cast, but if you need to cast warptime, prescience, heal, and -1 to hit every turn that's two exalteds or DPs right there. THEN you need to cast smite, doombolt, and firestorm...where do those come from? Even if you fail it's worth a go and i'm not going to sweat a ~6% perils.

could have told FW to do a simul-release of a dataslate for orisons to get us psyker dreadnauts that they KNEW we wanted for a long time, it would cost them nothing,

Sure and it could still happen. That's FW's job to figure out.

4-the legion tactic itself, is poor. really poor.
It doesn't come up often to begin with, and it provides zero "numerical advantage", just a minor tactical one.
To make it worse, many units dont even CARE about the tactic. its bad for all marines that all the armor devision is basically identical regardless of what legion you are, but for TS even the cultists and helbrute are identical to generic <whatever> ones without any trait.
The only reason why gors are taken as TS, is because they have to be. the legion tactics don't even effect them. they could be a part of a generic <chaos> dethachment and be mechanically identical, so beisdes being given the keyword-how are they thousand sons?
The tactic should have effected more widely, even something as silly as "6+ invul if oyu dont have one" at least would salvage helbrutes and cultists from being irrelevant-they wouldn't be good, but they would have a reason. 6+ versus mortal wounds in the psyker phase (the very thing custodians got as part of thier tactics) would also been a good option-it helps protect against perils, and expands on the psyker dominance by the fact using magic against them isn't as useful.

It's really strong. Just because it doesn't affect everything doesn't make it poor. A 6++ would have affected very little anyway (Preds, Rhinos, Land Raiders, Cultists) - most everything has a ward already.

The army list for the "most competetive" TS builds shapes up to look like princes for HQs, gors for troops, bowgors for FA, mutalits for HS and not a single dude in PA/termi to be seen-except MAYBE ahriman or a one-of termi sorcerer.

Doubtfully, but time will tell. If I have any major criticism it's that exalteds only exist for when you don't have points for a DP.

That would have been ideal. But all evidence pointed agaisnt that possibility. I don't know why people even had hope for something like that. It goes agaisnt everything GW has done for 8th.
I don't know, expecting something that is nearly impossible to happen, just to be dissapointed about it after it, as expected, doesn't happens, is a little... pointless?

 Formosa wrote:


You are right, models take time to make etc. Now watch this


Heavy support:

Rubricai havoc squad
Unit 4-9 rubric marines, 1 aspiring sorcerer
Options: up to 4 rubric marines may take, heavy bolter with inferno bolts, autocannons, lascannons etc.

Elites:
Rubric special weapon squad
Up to 4 rubric marines

Etc. Etc.

So with no effort at all, I've just make the 1 existing kit fill 3 different roles in the army, no model cycle involved, no new kits needed.

Where are the sprues for those weapons that fit the new Thousand Sons scale?

But the Rubric kit doesn't have autocannons, lascannons etc... They only have a soulreaper. So, no havocs.
Not sure what the special weapon squad would have. All flamers? That's not that useful.
Remember, you're still stuck with the no model-no rules problem, so kitbashing is out of the question.

Rubric special weapons squad? You mean a unit of rubrics holding only soulreaper cannons, yes? Because that's the only special weapon you can't already take on everybody. You really think people would be OK with the idea of having to buy 200 dollars of rubrics to get enough soulreapers to make a single squad of 5 with a sorc? You don't think that would be decried as lazy?

Rubric devastators: I guess. Both of these ideas seem to be lazier than doing a full port of the tzaangor models, to be honest.

As to your critique of the army trait...I mean, I guess I just have to laugh, because if you field an army of pure rubrics/SOTs like you say that you want to...it DOES affect every unit in the army. Conversely when you bring loads of gor units/cultists/spawns like you're complaining about...then it's a much weaker trait. Admittedly, I've only tried the new stuff in one game, but the increased range came up for me multiple times every turn of the game, and if I'd been smarter with it (i.e. remembering that my jump sorc can now be 9" away from my tzaangor squad to cast warptime, and that I could have stuck him in a safer spot) then it would have been even more useful. As it was, I was able to have Ahriman smacking people with powers from a much safer range while still staying with my pred, helbrute and rubric squad with his new to-hit aura, and I was able to get an immense amount of use from the SOT and Rubric squads having their own powers (which remember they only get if they're Thousand Sons rubrics, so you may as well count it as a part of the army trait).

You can argue that Gors make the best use out of VOTLW (though I might have to contest that WRT Scarab Occult, who definitely pack more punch with it on a turn where they can warptime, shoot, and charge) but it's still an incredibly useful offensive stratagem when used by a rubric squad, as wounding a target is really the only thing they struggle with.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:


You are right, models take time to make etc. Now watch this


Heavy support:

Rubricai havoc squad
Unit 4-9 rubric marines, 1 aspiring sorcerer
Options: up to 4 rubric marines may take, heavy bolter with inferno bolts, autocannons, lascannons etc.

Elites:
Rubric special weapon squad
Up to 4 rubric marines

Etc. Etc.

So with no effort at all, I've just make the 1 existing kit fill 3 different roles in the army, no model cycle involved, no new kits needed.

Where are the sprues for those weapons that fit the new Thousand Sons scale?

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy?N=191608925+699725060&Nr=AND%28sku.siteId%3AGB_fw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_GB_fw%29&Nrs=collection%28%29%2Frecord%5Bproduct.startDate+%3C%3D+1517257560000+and+product.endDate+%3E%3D+1517257560000%5D

There you go, that was difficult, oh and the heresy era weapons fit the Tsons very well and very easily.

As I said before, 3 roles, already existing kits, little effort involved.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:
But the Rubric kit doesn't have autocannons, lascannons etc... They only have a soulreaper. So, no havocs.
Not sure what the special weapon squad would have. All flamers? That's not that useful.
Remember, you're still stuck with the no model-no rules problem, so kitbashing is out of the question.

We have the weapons, Forge world makes them, and GW makes the Havoc upgrade kit, not even a plastic one, so "no model, no rules" does not apply to the heavy weapons, just pure laziness from the design team, or at least thats the image they are putting out :/


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
Rubric special weapons squad? You mean a unit of rubrics holding only soulreaper cannons, yes? Because that's the only special weapon you can't already take on everybody. You really think people would be OK with the idea of having to buy 200 dollars of rubrics to get enough soulreapers to make a single squad of 5 with a sorc? You don't think that would be decried as lazy?

Rubric devastators: I guess. Both of these ideas seem to be lazier than doing a full port of the tzaangor models, to be honest.

As to your critique of the army trait...I mean, I guess I just have to laugh, because if you field an army of pure rubrics/SOTs like you say that you want to...it DOES affect every unit in the army. Conversely when you bring loads of gor units/cultists/spawns like you're complaining about...then it's a much weaker trait. Admittedly, I've only tried the new stuff in one game, but the increased range came up for me multiple times every turn of the game, and if I'd been smarter with it (i.e. remembering that my jump sorc can now be 9" away from my tzaangor squad to cast warptime, and that I could have stuck him in a safer spot) then it would have been even more useful. As it was, I was able to have Ahriman smacking people with powers from a much safer range while still staying with my pred, helbrute and rubric squad with his new to-hit aura, and I was able to get an immense amount of use from the SOT and Rubric squads having their own powers (which remember they only get if they're Thousand Sons rubrics, so you may as well count it as a part of the army trait).

You can argue that Gors make the best use out of VOTLW (though I might have to contest that WRT Scarab Occult, who definitely pack more punch with it on a turn where they can warptime, shoot, and charge) but it's still an incredibly useful offensive stratagem when used by a rubric squad, as wounding a target is really the only thing they struggle with.

Forge world makes the weapons, so no, they would have access to all the usual weapons, plasma, flamer etc. it would essentially be a Tsons version of the hellblaster squad, which is a special weapon squad.

Rubric devs shoud have already been an option, I have said multiple times in this thread, start with the basics, then build from there, Tsons lacks even the basic units that they should have access to, and even though I like Tzaangors, its just as lazy to just throw across units from a different game and claim they are new units, especially the mutalith vortex beast, thats here nor there to me though, I like the addition of Tzangors.

To the rest of your reply, I am ignoring it as I dont think its aimed at me, since I havent mentioned any of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

Spoiler:

 Formosa wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Guys, all you have to do to understand why TS didn't get new Rubrics is look at the timeframe. A production cycle is about 2-3 years. The new TS kits are a year old right? That means GW would have had to start designing new kits as soon as they finished the other ones to even possibly get them ready by now. But that would slow down progress on other lines that they needed/wanted to work on. Saying "GW could have easily added a kit or two" is actually false because they physically couldn't fit them in the schedule at all. Instead, they gave you more Tzaangors to help diversify your lists (if you want them).

You're just victims of production constraints, not malice or neglect on GW's part. Comparing yourselves to Primaris, Death Guard and Custodes is disingenuous because no one else got any new kits. GW were maxed out.

Pointing this out does not mean people are actively trying to hamstring TS, nor are they defending GW intentionally screwing over a faction. The fact that Primaris were overcosted means that the design team makes honest mistakes, which is probably what happened to Rubrics.

You can still think it sucks and it probably does, but you won't get any sympathy from other players because they have their own problems to deal with.

You are right, models take time to make etc. Now watch this


Heavy support:

Rubricai havoc squad
Unit 4-9 rubric marines, 1 aspiring sorcerer
Options: up to 4 rubric marines may take, heavy bolter with inferno bolts, autocannons, lascannons etc.

Elites:
Rubric special weapon squad
Up to 4 rubric marines

Etc. Etc.

So with no effort at all, I've just make the 1 existing kit fill 3 different roles in the army, no model cycle involved, no new kits needed.

That would have been ideal. But all evidence pointed agaisnt that possibility. I don't know why people even had hope for something like that. It goes agaisnt everything GW has done for 8th.
I don't know, expecting something that is nearly impossible to happen, just to be dissapointed about it after it, as expected, doesn't happens, is a little... pointless?

You misunderstand Galas, I was not expecting these units, because I know GW has a pretty bad design team (opinion) and the no models no rules policy, and its not pointless, it lets people express their frustrations and have a discussion about it, when others dismiss those frustrations with calls of "whinging" of other things it compounds the issue.

So realistically I knew GW would not give the Tsons the focus they needed, but this doesnt stop me from expressing my wish for said units.

Rubric Harvester squad:

Up to 4 Rubric Marines take that gattling cannon thingy. 1 Sorceror to grant them rerolls I guess (possibly his unique psychic power or some buff, idunno). Heavy Support. Counterpart to the Havocs.

Rehati War Coven Squad:

3-10 Sorcerors. Comes in three flavours: Power armor Elites, Terminator HS, and Disc-riding Fast attack. The Elites version can cast powers easier and cast spells that others have already attempted. The Terminator ones can cast Smite with modified stats to fit either anti-horde or anti vehicle. The Disc-riding ones are just normal casters, but in exchange are an entire unit of force weapon-wielding flankers (that can potentially buff themselves). The First is Elites, Corresponds to Chosen. The second are HS, corresponds to Centurions or Obliterators. The third are Fast Attack, obviously bikers.

If they reeeeeeally need a new set for any of this, probably 1 set of 3 snap-fit Scarab Occult Terminators (that, as a bonus, can double as Terminator lords too). But I agree with Formosa in that it's not that hard to come up with new unit entries, and that's not even including the fact that you could get new sculpts too (even if they're just easy to build ones like the Blight Hauler. T-Sons Automata anyone?).

Also for people thinking I'm ragging on the Death Guard just because they got the fancy new toys. Look at my avatar and title. I have over 100 plague marines now and I am loving the sets, which is why I feel T-Sons got the short end of the stick since they deserved just as much (and when the World Eaters and Emperor's Children version comes and falls short, I will champion them as well).

 Formosa wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
But the Rubric kit doesn't have autocannons, lascannons etc... They only have a soulreaper. So, no havocs.
Not sure what the special weapon squad would have. All flamers? That's not that useful.
Remember, you're still stuck with the no model-no rules problem, so kitbashing is out of the question.

We have the weapons, Forge world makes them, and GW makes the Havoc upgrade kit, not even a plastic one, so "no model, no rules" does not apply to the heavy weapons, just pure laziness from the design team, or at least thats the image they are putting out :/

GW pretends FW doesn't exist when writing rules, so that's not going to happen. But if you ask FW yourself maybe they'll make rules for 40k rubric devastators. Would that help for the time being?

Dandelion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
But the Rubric kit doesn't have autocannons, lascannons etc... They only have a soulreaper. So, no havocs.
Not sure what the special weapon squad would have. All flamers? That's not that useful.
Remember, you're still stuck with the no model-no rules problem, so kitbashing is out of the question.

We have the weapons, Forge world makes them, and GW makes the Havoc upgrade kit, not even a plastic one, so "no model, no rules" does not apply to the heavy weapons, just pure laziness from the design team, or at least thats the image they are putting out :/

GW pretends FW doesn't exist when writing rules, so that's not going to happen. But if you ask FW yourself maybe they'll make rules for 40k rubric devastators. Would that help for the time being?

Of course, I'm not unreasonable lol.

I also forgot to mention that of course, gw makes the weapons too, little more conversion needed but still very easy to do

 Formosa wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
But the Rubric kit doesn't have autocannons, lascannons etc... They only have a soulreaper. So, no havocs.
Not sure what the special weapon squad would have. All flamers? That's not that useful.
Remember, you're still stuck with the no model-no rules problem, so kitbashing is out of the question.

We have the weapons, Forge world makes them, and GW makes the Havoc upgrade kit, not even a plastic one, so "no model, no rules" does not apply to the heavy weapons, just pure laziness from the design team, or at least thats the image they are putting out :/

GW pretends FW doesn't exist when writing rules, so that's not going to happen. But if you ask FW yourself maybe they'll make rules for 40k rubric devastators. Would that help for the time being?

Of course, I'm not unreasonable lol.

I also forgot to mention that of course, gw makes the weapons too, little more conversion needed but still very easy to do

GW is trying to make the game beginner friendly, hence the no model-no rules. If you are required to convert something to work then it's not going to happen, regardless of how easy it is. It's just a tight spot that we're in. This current design philosophy invalidated lots of cool stuff and it will take a while for new kits to be made so that we can get them again.

I see a lot of you talking about different gun options and while i agree it would be nice to have some more gun options other than bolter or flamer to gain some variety but I didn't really picked up a TS army for the shooting options.

I picked up a TS because i wanted to blast everything with psychic powers but see no reason why TS is better than any other army. Yeah, we get 1 strategem but we also get the 2 of only WC9 powers in game (which imho aren't that much better than any other power).
Am i the only one that feels the same way? An aspiring sorcerer can now cast a "normal" power but without any help they continue to be more of a liability than a asset when you used up the re-roll.

Also the Exalted Sorcerers just makes me want to cry. Why would i pay extra for a WS2+ model with a pistol with a extra wound that 90% of the time cannot be targeted anyway ? Granted the re-roll 1 to hit aura can be semi-useful in shooting/assault but how does that help a sorcerer ?
How does that help a when you build your army around psykers?

I got me thinking this codex would be 4 times for me if the exalted (and Ahriman) had the re-roll 1 on psychic test aura. Finally a unique touch on these models and it would instantly solve 75% of my issues with aspiring/scarab sorcerers.
No more suicide bombing on snake eyes AND it would help just that tiny extra bit in trying to cast those WC7+ powers. At the same time the sorcerer himself would benefit greatly from it too. Leaving him a much better choice to use as psychic caster.

Dandelion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
But the Rubric kit doesn't have autocannons, lascannons etc... They only have a soulreaper. So, no havocs.
Not sure what the special weapon squad would have. All flamers? That's not that useful.
Remember, you're still stuck with the no model-no rules problem, so kitbashing is out of the question.

We have the weapons, Forge world makes them, and GW makes the Havoc upgrade kit, not even a plastic one, so "no model, no rules" does not apply to the heavy weapons, just pure laziness from the design team, or at least thats the image they are putting out :/

GW pretends FW doesn't exist when writing rules, so that's not going to happen. But if you ask FW yourself maybe they'll make rules for 40k rubric devastators. Would that help for the time being?

Of course, I'm not unreasonable lol.

I also forgot to mention that of course, gw makes the weapons too, little more conversion needed but still very easy to do

GW is trying to make the game beginner friendly, hence the no model-no rules. If you are required to convert something to work then it's not going to happen, regardless of how easy it is. It's just a tight spot that we're in. This current design philosophy invalidated lots of cool stuff and it will take a while for new kits to be made so that we can get them again.

see this is why I think the designers are incompetent or at the very least dont know their own product range, in order to take advantage of a lot of ranges, you MUST convert them, there are no plastic havocs so we must convert some using the upgrade sets, in EXACTLY the same manner as the HH ones.

Just a quick google search shows that GW wants you to convert stuff, but doesnt... but does..... ergh.

I just wish as a community we could all get together on just one message, not chaos stuff, not make this or make that, just a simple

STOP REMOVING OPTIONS!


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/03/02/converted-models-for-middle-earth/


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/04/converting-your-own-free-city-oct-4gw-homepage-post-3/


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/07/making-the-most-of-a-mourngul/

EDIT: my bad

Zhan wrote:
I see a lot of you talking about different gun options and while i agree it would be nice to have some more gun options other than bolter or flamer to gain some variety but I didn't really picked up a TS army for the shooting options.

I picked up a TS because i wanted to blast everything with psychic powers but see no reason why TS is better than any other army. Yeah, we get 1 strategem but we also get the 2 of only WC9 powers in game (which imho aren't that much better than any other power).
Am i the only one that feels the same way? An aspiring sorcerer can now cast a "normal" power but without any help they continue to be more of a liability than a asset when you used up the re-roll.

Also the Exalted Sorcerers just makes me want to cry. Why would i pay extra for a WS2+ model with a pistol with a extra wound that 90% of the time cannot be targeted anyway ? Granted the re-roll 1 to hit aura can be semi-useful in shooting/assault but how does that help a sorcerer ?
How does that help a when you build your army around psykers?

I got me thinking this codex would be 4 times for me if the exalted (and Ahriman) had the re-roll 1 on psychic test aura. Finally a unique touch on these models and it would instantly solve 75% of my issues with aspiring/scarab sorcerers.
No more suicide bombing on snake eyes AND it would help just that tiny extra bit in trying to cast those WC7+ powers. At the same time the sorcerer himself would benefit greatly from it too. Leaving him a much better choice to use as psychic caster.

I think there is some potential for running Ahriman as a psychic murder machine, blowing up the brains of enemy characters. Give him Tzeentch's Firestorm, Doombolt, and Infernal Gaze (switching one of these to Gift of Chaos in t3 matchups if you prefer) and with a total 36" threat range he should have decent odds of popping a 4 wound character every turn. Needs some testing but I'm definitely going to try it out.

The exalt gets -2AP on his pistol, +1BS, WS, A, and W, and gets a reroll 1s to hit aura for 21pts.

That's pretty good, the biggest question with them us actually why you wouldn't take Ahriman over the disc version for whatever it is, 11 points. But for me I can actually see 4 useful HQs: Ahriman, DP, Termie for DSing in, and foot exalt for being cheaper than Ahriman and still being able to cast the good gunline support powers.

Take DP for an amazing suicide bomb, Ahriman for an expensive does-it-all piece, Termie for DS support, Exalt for cheaper Ahriman substitute (better IMO when you're bringing the Termie to support deep strikers or forward troops.

DP/Ahriman, DP/Exalt, Exalt/Termie would all seem to be good battalion fillers.