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Exalted suffer from paying for things they don't care about.
They don't care about WS or A, as you don't really want to enter CC.
They don't care quite as a prince would about W, because the moment the got shot something went wrong anyway.
The pistol is nothing to write home about. ditto the BS.
Basically, you are paying 21 points for the aura, and a bunch of stuff you don't really care for.
Now, if you don't have many princes around, the aura is useful. but if you got a whole bunch of princes anyway-less so.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
if Thousand Sons did not have the VOTLW rule, and instead had a stratagem called "Inferno Bolt Firestorm" that read "1CP: in the shooting phase, one unit's Inferno Bolters, Warpflamers, Heavy Warpflamers, Soulreaper Cannons, and Hellfyre Missile racks get +1 to wound rolls for the phase"...would you be happier?
Or how about if the Mutalith Beast was instead a new Thousand Sons specific Daemon Engine using a reboxed Fantasy Necrosphinx?
Latter hell yes, former not really, if it was 1 additional shot without removing VotLW maybe. I was expecting something like the shoot bolters in CC as pistols thing.
BoomWolf wrote: Exalted suffer from paying for things they don't care about.
They don't care about WS or A, as you don't really want to enter CC.
They don't care quite as a prince would about W, because the moment the got shot something went wrong anyway.
The pistol is nothing to write home about. ditto the BS.
Basically, you are paying 21 points for the aura, and a bunch of stuff you don't really care for.
Now, if you don't have many princes around, the aura is useful. but if you got a whole bunch of princes anyway-less so.
it's more like if other legions (death guard or CSM really) had the option to upgrade a basic Lord to a 2-cast psyker and give him a force weapon for 47 points. To say nothing of the fact that he also gets access to Glamor, which pretty much any other csm player would happily take over the other DH powers for that kind of role.
You see naked captain-equivalents in plenty of competitive lists if they have a significant mechanized gunline component. Ours just brings psychic powers for a nominal fee, and is a little better than average at the "emergency close combat" role with his force staff.
I'm not sure where you guys are putting your daemon princes, but I usually find mine in the general area of way the frick over there, rampaging around enemy backlines with warptime and diabolic strength, making use of his 180 points of amazing melee stats, while my predators, rubrics, land raiders or whatever else needs a reroll 1s to hit aura is way the frick over here on my deployment edge.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
if Thousand Sons did not have the VOTLW rule, and instead had a stratagem called "Inferno Bolt Firestorm" that read "1CP: in the shooting phase, one unit's Inferno Bolters, Warpflamers, Heavy Warpflamers, Soulreaper Cannons, and Hellfyre Missile racks get +1 to wound rolls for the phase"...would you be happier?
Or how about if the Mutalith Beast was instead a new Thousand Sons specific Daemon Engine using a reboxed Fantasy Necrosphinx?
Latter hell yes, former not really, if it was 1 additional shot without removing VotLW maybe. I was expecting something like the shoot bolters in CC as pistols thing.
I mean, good news on both fronts I guess. To accomplish the first thing you want, take a big blob of rubrics and the Dark Crystal relic. You don't even have to shoot the model that you were originally in combat with, or even be in the same neighborhood, and you can use VOTLW on top of it.
The gist of my question was more gauging whether you'd be happier having the same thing as VOTLW, but slightly worse as you couldn't use it on scarabs in melee, if it had the distinction that Tzaangors couldn't use it. Because it seems like a lot of your complaints revolve around the tool you were given being too versatile such that it could be used in a different way that you don't want to use it. This also seems to be your problem with the Deep Strike stratagem. I can totally understand the complaint with Soulflare (a power that only works when the unit you like dies is lame, and the fact that it's also pretty much terrible is doubly disappointing) and with the soulreaper nerf.
Fundamentally though, it's tough to argue that as of right now thousand sons dont have more to differentiate them than any other csm legion bar death guard at this point. Even just with 2 unique units, special princes, 2-3 stratagems, and their own psychic discipline.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Zhan wrote: I see a lot of you talking about different gun options and while i agree it would be nice to have some more gun options other than bolter or flamer to gain some variety but I didn't really picked up a TS army for the shooting options.
I picked up a TS because i wanted to blast everything with psychic powers but see no reason why TS is better than any other army. Yeah, we get 1 strategem but we also get the 2 of only WC9 powers in game (which imho aren't that much better than any other power).
Am i the only one that feels the same way? An aspiring sorcerer can now cast a "normal" power but without any help they continue to be more of a liability than a asset when you used up the re-roll.
Also the Exalted Sorcerers just makes me want to cry. Why would i pay extra for a WS2+ model with a pistol with a extra wound that 90% of the time cannot be targeted anyway ? Granted the re-roll 1 to hit aura can be semi-useful in shooting/assault but how does that help a sorcerer ?
How does that help a when you build your army around psykers?
I got me thinking this codex would be 4 times for me if the exalted (and Ahriman) had the re-roll 1 on psychic test aura. Finally a unique touch on these models and it would instantly solve 75% of my issues with aspiring/scarab sorcerers.
No more suicide bombing on snake eyes AND it would help just that tiny extra bit in trying to cast those WC7+ powers. At the same time the sorcerer himself would benefit greatly from it too. Leaving him a much better choice to use as psychic caster.
I think there is some potential for running Ahriman as a psychic murder machine, blowing up the brains of enemy characters. Give him Tzeentch's Firestorm, Doombolt, and Infernal Gaze (switching one of these to Gift of Chaos in t3 matchups if you prefer) and with a total 36" threat range he should have decent odds of popping a 4 wound character every turn. Needs some testing but I'm definitely going to try it out.
Ahriman is pretty good with his +1 but those 3 exalted sorcerer kits should have a center spot in our army. Not this maybe i'll bring one just to spam smite some more.
the_scotsman wrote:The exalt gets -2AP on his pistol, +1BS, WS, A, and W, and gets a reroll 1s to hit aura for 21pts.
That's pretty good, the biggest question with them us actually why you wouldn't take Ahriman over the disc version for whatever it is, 11 points. But for me I can actually see 4 useful HQs: Ahriman, DP, Termie for DSing in, and foot exalt for being cheaper than Ahriman and still being able to cast the good gunline support powers.
Take DP for an amazing suicide bomb, Ahriman for an expensive does-it-all piece, Termie for DS support, Exalt for cheaper Ahriman substitute (better IMO when you're bringing the Termie to support deep strikers or forward troops.
DP/Ahriman, DP/Exalt, Exalt/Termie would all seem to be good battalion fillers.
An exalted sorcerer is not suppose to be a buff bot for other units. Thousand sons are not suppose to be the same as blood angels or death guard who are shooting/CC based and use psychic powers to buff other units.
And ABOVE ALL ABSOLUTELY not battalion fillers!!! These are the most elite psykers of the TS legion, the survivors of the rubric spell who spend 10.000 years perfecting there psychic might. Not to be reduced to cheap fillers. That's what those tzaangor shamans are for.
BoomWolf wrote:Exalted suffer from paying for things they don't care about.
They don't care about WS or A, as you don't really want to enter CC.
They don't care quite as a prince would about W, because the moment the got shot something went wrong anyway.
The pistol is nothing to write home about. ditto the BS.
Basically, you are paying 21 points for the aura, and a bunch of stuff you don't really care for.
Now, if you don't have many princes around, the aura is useful. but if you got a whole bunch of princes anyway-less so.
Exactly. There is no reason to prefer a sorcerer over a daemon prince. And if people say: Oh but you got more powers now so they are better. It was the same when the CSM codex came out. Oh you got dark hereticus powers now so exalted are fine. Well i got 6 of them and can never justify bringing them. Daemon prince is superior in every way.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/29 23:50:31
Superior in every way except model ! Haha, your right though the DP is just flat better, the only reason I don't take them is the mini but it's easy enough to make one
Dandelion wrote: But the Rubric kit doesn't have autocannons, lascannons etc... They only have a soulreaper. So, no havocs.
Not sure what the special weapon squad would have. All flamers? That's not that useful.
Remember, you're still stuck with the no model-no rules problem, so kitbashing is out of the question.
We have the weapons, Forge world makes them, and GW makes the Havoc upgrade kit, not even a plastic one, so "no model, no rules" does not apply to the heavy weapons, just pure laziness from the design team, or at least thats the image they are putting out :/
GW pretends FW doesn't exist when writing rules, so that's not going to happen. But if you ask FW yourself maybe they'll make rules for 40k rubric devastators. Would that help for the time being?
Of course, I'm not unreasonable lol.
I also forgot to mention that of course, gw makes the weapons too, little more conversion needed but still very easy to do
GW is trying to make the game beginner friendly, hence the no model-no rules. If you are required to convert something to work then it's not going to happen, regardless of how easy it is. It's just a tight spot that we're in. This current design philosophy invalidated lots of cool stuff and it will take a while for new kits to be made so that we can get them again.
see this is why I think the designers are incompetent or at the very least dont know their own product range, in order to take advantage of a lot of ranges, you MUST convert them, there are no plastic havocs so we must convert some using the upgrade sets, in EXACTLY the same manner as the HH ones.
Just a quick google search shows that GW wants you to convert stuff, but doesnt... but does..... ergh.
I just wish as a community we could all get together on just one message, not chaos stuff, not make this or make that, just a simple
The crux of the issue is that GW needs to provide the models for the rules they publish. Sure, I can take a leman russ, throw some ork bits on it and run it as a battlewagon (which is basically proxying) but GW cannot REQUIRE you to convert to get an option. Take Rough Riders for example. If I buy the codex and see they're an option but then find out GW doesn't sell them, what am I supposed to do? Buy 3rd party? How would I even know that's an option? Also, if I buy a box expecting to get a certain weapon I saw in the datasheet, it needs to be in the box. How would you feel as a new player if you had to go through Ebay just to find a plasma pistol you're datasheet said you could have but wasn't in the kit?
GW currently does sell havocs as a unit which means they get rules.
But they no longer sell rough riders, so no rules.
It makes sense, but like I said, it will take them time to make new kits to replace all the OOP stuff and get all those sweet options. Until then we're going to be short on options.
Dandelion wrote: But the Rubric kit doesn't have autocannons, lascannons etc... They only have a soulreaper. So, no havocs.
Not sure what the special weapon squad would have. All flamers? That's not that useful.
Remember, you're still stuck with the no model-no rules problem, so kitbashing is out of the question.
We have the weapons, Forge world makes them, and GW makes the Havoc upgrade kit, not even a plastic one, so "no model, no rules" does not apply to the heavy weapons, just pure laziness from the design team, or at least thats the image they are putting out :/
GW pretends FW doesn't exist when writing rules, so that's not going to happen. But if you ask FW yourself maybe they'll make rules for 40k rubric devastators. Would that help for the time being?
Of course, I'm not unreasonable lol.
I also forgot to mention that of course, gw makes the weapons too, little more conversion needed but still very easy to do
GW is trying to make the game beginner friendly, hence the no model-no rules. If you are required to convert something to work then it's not going to happen, regardless of how easy it is. It's just a tight spot that we're in. This current design philosophy invalidated lots of cool stuff and it will take a while for new kits to be made so that we can get them again.
see this is why I think the designers are incompetent or at the very least dont know their own product range, in order to take advantage of a lot of ranges, you MUST convert them, there are no plastic havocs so we must convert some using the upgrade sets, in EXACTLY the same manner as the HH ones.
Just a quick google search shows that GW wants you to convert stuff, but doesnt... but does..... ergh.
I just wish as a community we could all get together on just one message, not chaos stuff, not make this or make that, just a simple
The crux of the issue is that GW needs to provide the models for the rules they publish. Sure, I can take a leman russ, throw some ork bits on it and run it as a battlewagon (which is basically proxying) but GW cannot REQUIRE you to convert to get an option. Take Rough Riders for example. If I buy the codex and see they're an option but then find out GW doesn't sell them, what am I supposed to do? Buy 3rd party? How would I even know that's an option? Also, if I buy a box expecting to get a certain weapon I saw in the datasheet, it needs to be in the box. How would you feel as a new player if you had to go through Ebay just to find a plasma pistol you're datasheet said you could have but wasn't in the kit?
GW currently does sell havocs as a unit which means they get rules.
But they no longer sell rough riders, so no rules.
It makes sense, but like I said, it will take them time to make new kits to replace all the OOP stuff and get all those sweet options. Until then we're going to be short on options.
Like, for example, the dreadknight grandmaster?
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
Except, the dreadknight grandmaster has all the same weapon options as a dreadknight. The only differences are his stats and abilites, none of those require special gear. So yes, they do make the model for it, therefore it gets rules. No conversion is required, but you can if you want to. It's like how the Custodes can make Shield-Captains: same model different rules.
If you wanted an actual counterpoint, you should have mentioned IG veterans. Infantry boxes don't come with a shotgun yet we still have that option. (melta, plasma and sniper rifles are sold individually so those are okay). But that seems to have just been overlooked instead of being deliberate (or a result of incompetence if you prefer). All that proves is that Guard models are so old GW forgot what their kits have.
Regardless, GW will continue tidying up their rules to match their models. We can just hope they will produce interesting kits to give us those options back.
Having Rubric Chosen and Havocs would have been cool, but doesn't really help much. More options for rubrics doesn't solve the problem that Rubrics are not good. A 4 soul reaper heavy support squad would dish out some pain, but I doubt it'd compete with other army's heavy support options. And even if it did, our Troop Rubrics are still just not good :(
Previous to this Codex, we had access to the re-roll 1s for invul saves aura, this allowed us to run multiple min squads because each squad could recive a minor buff.
Losing the easy access to this aura which used to buff multiple Rubric squads in the way they really needed it, was basically how we were able to run multiple squads. Now, without that buff you will be seeing a drop in durability agianst the weapons most often fired at our Rubrics.
In return we were given spells which you really don't want to cast from AS, due to the high warp charge, or how good the spell is, and an aura which is attached to an expensive model which is better used on acutal Sorcerers rather then AS.
The only effective way to keep our Rubics alive at this point is spells, in particular Weaver of Fate and Glamor of Tzeentch, which means you could bring 2 10 man squads, but you would be much better off running one 20 man squad since you can cast both spells on the same unit.
In the end when you build your army, your mutilith most, your HQs, the Shamans, will be there for your Tzaangors and you will bring 1 Exalted Sorcerer to buff your Rubrics.
Ok. I managed all 32 pages, and can write a reply now.
I am sad. I always considered myself a big fan of TS since 3ed. I stopped playing the game with the introduction of true loss mechanics as in my opinion, it destroyed half of the hobby of converting your miniatures. I didn't stop collecting, painting and dreaming.
Now it seemed that a dream came true. We got a good box of Rubrics, Scarab Occult Terminators (I still don't understand how they became rubricated), Exalted Sorcerers (so many tasty bits in the kit) and Magnus. Then they announced the codex! I was happy as a pig and knew it was time to return to the hobby!
This thread made me sad again. I feel the pain the OP has, and some other dedicated TS players have. I have it as well.
This is indeed a codex Tzangors book. Tzangors got all the combos, all the stratagems and the points to effectiveness ratios. I almost want to go back to the CSM codex.
And the worst part of it is that if people will skip buying Tzangors (I will skip them), GW will just consider TS a money sink army for them to properly support.
I will still make myself a TS army to play with. I even thought of making Tzangor count as miniatures out of IG Scions. And most likely the army will be heavy on daemon engines. Will be hard not to lose TS spirit in it, but definitely better than Tzangors who are a type of blue bloodletters. If I wanted daemon looking half naked horned birds I would not have played TS.
My complaints are:
1) Rubrics are outmatched by Tzangors in almost every aspect.
I thought that the ability to cast something other than mini smite was a big buff until I saw that the AS actually has nothing to cast anyway, mostly because of the high WC.
2) No rules for actual TS units (I can make models myself, just give me the rules).
The possibilities are endless. Psy Dreads, Sorc covens, hidden ones?, hell any form of a daemon engine, as long as it doesn't look like a bird can do.
3) The units we have are not flexible at all.
Only swords on SOT? Why? Exalted Sorc in terminator armour? jump packs? Rubric variants?
4) The Thousand Sons Legion army was robbed of its name. Wait 5 years and people around you will think that TS are tzangors, horrors and a big red daemon prince.
Even the codex Grey Knights makes better TS...
I am kind of sympathetic to all this melancholy, but I'm also at a bit of a loss. I mean, here's an example of what you'll be doing with our new codex: take a batallion with 2 Rubric squads and one Tzaangor herd for deepstriking. Your dusties hold the line and shoot things up, or ride in a rhino to protect them (which can now shoot with 8 -2 shots in rapid fire range, or dish out mortal wounds when it charges to tie something scary up in CC. Big improvement for your rhinos.), or they deepstrike in for a CP, etc.
Meanwhile your ASs can throw back heals on that butcher-cannon contemptor that's getting shot up (remember that techmarines have to be within 3" to do the same). The other squad can drop Boon on your advancing DP every round, buffing an already monstrous unit. They support your big casters by contributing to the requirements to trigger the +2 cast strategem (they're the best in the roster for this), and the trait means that your caster is no longer hamstrung for hanging out with his dusty brothers.
Finally, your HQ will no doubt give one or both squads 1-rerolls, which is a big damage improvement. All our sorcerers are captains now too. Awesome. Thousand Sons HQs got a great deal in this Codex - terminator sorcerer is really improved, as is our DP, and Ahriman got tankier - these are all Sons units, and all great. Any of them will now up your damage output.
Did your 10-man rubric squad get caught up in cc with a chaff charge? Smash the dark crystal, teleport away and shoot the same turn. Ahhhh, that's going to feel very satisfying.
So... Are you somehow *polluted* by this experience? I don't see why. Have your Sons improved? Vastly, with the exception of Big Red. Are tzaangors probably more competitive than dusties? Yes, because they a) are horde units, and they dominate 8th edition, and b) they have gotten some amazing powers and buffs. This is good. They are your other option, they are great models, and they fit in our roster really well.
I'm not saying that next year, if there are Sons lists at LVO, that they won't be spamming Gors - they probably will. But that isn't the only metric by which to assess a codex. Isn't that the actual point of many you?
Heelidar wrote: Ok. I managed all 32 pages, and can write a reply now.
I am sad. I always considered myself a big fan of TS since 3ed. I stopped playing the game with the introduction of true loss mechanics as in my opinion, it destroyed half of the hobby of converting your miniatures. I didn't stop collecting, painting and dreaming.
Now it seemed that a dream came true. We got a good box of Rubrics, Scarab Occult Terminators (I still don't understand how they became rubricated), Exalted Sorcerers (so many tasty bits in the kit) and Magnus. Then they announced the codex! I was happy as a pig and knew it was time to return to the hobby!
This thread made me sad again. I feel the pain the OP has, and some other dedicated TS players have. I have it as well.
This is indeed a codex Tzangors book. Tzangors got all the combos, all the stratagems and the points to effectiveness ratios. I almost want to go back to the CSM codex.
And the worst part of it is that if people will skip buying Tzangors (I will skip them), GW will just consider TS a money sink army for them to properly support.
I will still make myself a TS army to play with. I even thought of making Tzangor count as miniatures out of IG Scions. And most likely the army will be heavy on daemon engines. Will be hard not to lose TS spirit in it, but definitely better than Tzangors who are a type of blue bloodletters. If I wanted daemon looking half naked horned birds I would not have played TS.
My complaints are:
1) Rubrics are outmatched by Tzangors in almost every aspect.
I thought that the ability to cast something other than mini smite was a big buff until I saw that the AS actually has nothing to cast anyway, mostly because of the high WC.
2) No rules for actual TS units (I can make models myself, just give me the rules).
The possibilities are endless. Psy Dreads, Sorc covens, hidden ones?, hell any form of a daemon engine, as long as it doesn't look like a bird can do.
3) The units we have are not flexible at all.
Only swords on SOT? Why? Exalted Sorc in terminator armour? jump packs? Rubric variants?
4) The Thousand Sons Legion army was robbed of its name. Wait 5 years and people around you will think that TS are tzangors, horrors and a big red daemon prince.
Even the codex Grey Knights makes better TS...
- Death Guard: 18 separate boxes + Dark Imperium models (Those all are in total 61 different models: 1 primarch, 10 characters, 4 vehicles, 11 terminators, 19 plague marines and 16 plague zombies)
- Thousand Sons: 6 separate boxes (Those are 30 different models: 1 primarch, 4 characters, 5 terminators, 10 rubric marines and 10 tzaangors) (Tzaangors box is debatable because it is actualy intended for not-fantasy)
2 x number of different models and 3 x number of separate boxes released.
Best part of this is that as people is saying right now, because the TS range is "complete", we won't see anything for them in 10+ years and everybody will be happy...
We're all very aware. But we also understand that there is a limited window for model releases and there is no wayGW was going to be able to expand TS the same way as DG at this point in time.
DG got lucky to be the poster boy bad guy of the edition. Regardless we got a decent book and it's time to move on with out lives while we wait for things to shake out further.
If we need to fight for 16 point Rubrics and 5 man soulreapers then we do that. But this thread needs to die, because it's like listening to Tina Belcher moan at this point.
Rulewise? ofc not.
Because that strat is a clear downgrade of the VOTLW that was rather obivous we're supposed to get, and that new engine is still only supporting the gors.
Modelwise, yes, a bit.
Pleasing us, rule wise, would have been really easy even without models.
Yea, with even a tiny bit of models they could have made us bliss, but making us happy really took little, and didn't even require the sigmar model ports.
Had the mutalit been decent at supporting dust units, it would have been good-but they only support gors.
If there were good strats for dusts it would be nice, but the only dust-only strat is really bad, the "turn to rust" one is also horrible and everything else is either directly related to mutants, or just better for than than to the dusts.
The resons why we are upset can be sorted into the following, at least for the reasonable expectation players:
1-the stratagems, relics, and other support mechanics actually support a gor army, rather than a dust army.
The best stratagems, webway infiltration and cycle of slaughter. one is gor exclusive, another works better for gors than anyone else. then you got some "PA sons" strats who are just outright bad.
The inferno bolt stratagem should have effect all relevant guns on the model rather than just one (even then its iffy), the soul flare should have been a 2+ rather than a 4+ to be noteworthy and beam...given only the warlord can even use it shouuld also probably trigger at 2+ (and 4+ on characters) the mutants, on the other end, gets the best CC start in the game (2 cp attack twice)
The relics, lets just say are not a good work. the helm and crystal are great, but the 3 weapons are rather poor (especially the staff, why on earth would you care about disengaging and shooting/charging with a sorcerer?) and the scrolls from CA are still worthless.
The mutalit buffs are good for gors, not for dusts. the gors also got exclusive aura from shamans. spells also effect them better due to numbers rule. etc.
2-the spells the dust units DID get, are not spells they actually want. each of them is bad (firestorm), good only when used on someone else (doombolt), or best when used by someone else (everything else), with the few spells that would actually be good for them well locked in the other disciplines. so, if you got more than 2-3 dust squads, you quickly run out of spells to give them.
Couple it with the fact they did nothing to help them mitigate the massive danger that is perils for them (other than having magnus around I guess), and they are still not going to cast all that often-its too risky for too little gain.
3-the dust units got 0 intresting rules, and the prexistance of such rules is already in 30k, and had a hint of it in 7th. they could EASILY port some version of the "thousand sons cults"
For example they could introduce cults by having our aura HQs (magnus, ahriman, dp and exalted) project one of five auras depending on cult.
Easy cults: corvidate rr1 hits even if only at shooting, raptora rr1 invul, athenean a LD boost of sorts, pyrae something to support flamers (gun range boost for example, effecting all guns to be less one-dimentinal), pavoni something to boost CC (+S? +A? both as actual rubrics suck at CC?). lets say magnus gets them all because he's magnus (instead of his current aura, as awesome it is), and costs more to compensate. ahriman naturally locked into corvidae
That's just one example of many. its flavorful, it gives multiple "leader" a reason to exist, and it allows for different types of lists. you might need to bump a few point costs up to correlate for the choice, and maybe look out for the possibility of combining them getting out of hand-but that's balancing issues not concepts issues and its not like other armies don't have multiple auras
They could have told FW to do a simul-release of a dataslate for orisons to get us psyker dreadnauts that they KNEW we wanted for a long time, it would cost them nothing, not even book space, and it would make people happy even if the dataslate wasn't very good.
They could make a spin-off of some model (probably the exalted) that is easily converted like they did the grandmaster dreadknight. ESPECIALLY the exalteds, given how they are sold in packs of 3 and its currently insane to even consider having 3.
There are MANY ways they could make the PA side of the codex more interesting and engaging rulewise without needing any new models. it took me all of five minutes to come up with the random nonsense I wrote here. a team that's actually his work and got himself a few hours to work on the codex can easily come up with more and better.
4-the legion tactic itself, is poor. really poor.
It doesn't come up often to begin with, and it provides zero "numerical advantage", just a minor tactical one.
To make it worse, many units dont even CARE about the tactic. its bad for all marines that all the armor devision is basically identical regardless of what legion you are, but for TS even the cultists and helbrute are identical to generic <whatever> ones without any trait.
The only reason why gors are taken as TS, is because they have to be. the legion tactics don't even effect them. they could be a part of a generic <chaos> dethachment and be mechanically identical, so beisdes being given the keyword-how are they thousand sons?
The tactic should have effected more widely, even something as silly as "6+ invul if oyu dont have one" at least would salvage helbrutes and cultists from being irrelevant-they wouldn't be good, but they would have a reason. 6+ versus mortal wounds in the psyker phase (the very thing custodians got as part of thier tactics) would also been a good option-it helps protect against perils, and expands on the psyker dominance by the fact using magic against them isn't as useful.
The list goes infinitly on for minor things they could have done to make the non-casters actually be TS rather than generic <chaos> dudes as far as rules are bothered. even something tiny that's practically a sidenote and might never come up would feel better than nothing at all.
But the current trait means that if you don't cast-you got no trait. if you are in range anyway-you got no trait.
These are the four points that ACTUALLY bother the TS playerbase.
They can be summed up in that it mostly reeks of laziness and pushing the ported AoS line rather than doing anything for the existing TS.
The army list for the "most competetive" TS builds shapes up to look like princes for HQs, gors for troops, bowgors for FA, mutalits for HS and not a single dude in PA/termi to be seen-except MAYBE ahriman or a one-of termi sorcerer.
And not because we all love the goats so much, but beacuse the entire codex is geared towards making them good, while giving barely any attention to dusts.
Totally agreed.
And your ideas are really good. The TS cults rules you suggest are superb, i would have loved to have something like that in the codex. Really brilliant. I like all you say there. And as you say, GW with a dedicated team cannot came up with anything remotely similar and the only thing they manage to do is add fantasy units and copy-paste everything else.
Dandelion wrote: Guys, all you have to do to understand why TS didn't get new Rubrics is look at the timeframe. A production cycle is about 2-3 years. The new TS kits are a year old right? That means GW would have had to start designing new kits as soon as they finished the other ones to even possibly get them ready by now. But that would slow down progress on other lines that they needed/wanted to work on. Saying "GW could have easily added a kit or two" is actually false because they physically couldn't fit them in the schedule at all. Instead, they gave you more Tzaangors to help diversify your lists (if you want them).
You're just victims of production constraints, not malice or neglect on GW's part. Comparing yourselves to Primaris, Death Guard and Custodes is disingenuous because no one else got any new kits. GW were maxed out.
Pointing this out does not mean people are actively trying to hamstring TS, nor are they defending GW intentionally screwing over a faction. The fact that Primaris were overcosted means that the design team makes honest mistakes, which is probably what happened to Rubrics.
You can still think it sucks and it probably does, but you won't get any sympathy from other players because they have their own problems to deal with.
You are right, models take time to make etc. Now watch this
Heavy support:
Rubricai havoc squad
Unit 4-9 rubric marines, 1 aspiring sorcerer
Options: up to 4 rubric marines may take, heavy bolter with inferno bolts, autocannons, lascannons etc.
Elites:
Rubric special weapon squad
Up to 4 rubric marines
Etc. Etc.
So with no effort at all, I've just make the 1 existing kit fill 3 different roles in the army, no model cycle involved, no new kits needed.
That would have been ideal. But all evidence pointed agaisnt that possibility. I don't know why people even had hope for something like that. It goes agaisnt everything GW has done for 8th.
I don't know, expecting something that is nearly impossible to happen, just to be dissapointed about it after it, as expected, doesn't happens, is a little... pointless?
"Impossible"? "Pointless"? Really?
What about this:
Codex: Grey Knights
A full codex built with a handful of model releases. Specifically, there are 2 GK infantry kits, and with those kits in the codex you can make at least 5 different units.
In the Thousand Sons case, Gw could had done the exact same thing with the existing boxed kits we have, or using models from across the 40k range. So it is not exactly a huge assumption leap or "pointless". That is the part that saddens and annoys me the most. For GW part, i think that is just lack of any effort or care or thought about what they are doing. People here have said a lot of different ideas (good ideas) for units that could be made using the TS range and/or other existing GW kits with minimal or none conversions.
Like for example, the ideas from MechaEmperor7000:
Up to 4 Rubric Marines take that gattling cannon thingy. 1 Sorceror to grant them rerolls I guess (possibly his unique psychic power or some buff, idunno). Heavy Support. Counterpart to the Havocs.
Rehati War Coven Squad:
3-10 Sorcerors. Comes in three flavours: Power armor Elites, Terminator HS, and Disc-riding Fast attack. The Elites version can cast powers easier and cast spells that others have already attempted. The Terminator ones can cast Smite with modified stats to fit either anti-horde or anti vehicle. The Disc-riding ones are just normal casters, but in exchange are an entire unit of force weapon-wielding flankers (that can potentially buff themselves). The First is Elites, Corresponds to Chosen. The second are HS, corresponds to Centurions or Obliterators. The third are Fast Attack, obviously bikers.
If they reeeeeeally need a new set for any of this, probably 1 set of 3 snap-fit Scarab Occult Terminators (that, as a bonus, can double as Terminator lords too). But I agree with Formosa in that it's not that hard to come up with new unit entries, and that's not even including the fact that you could get new sculpts too (even if they're just easy to build ones like the Blight Hauler. T-Sons Automata anyone?).
Also for people thinking I'm ragging on the Death Guard just because they got the fancy new toys. Look at my avatar and title. I have over 100 plague marines now and I am loving the sets, which is why I feel T-Sons got the short end of the stick since they deserved just as much (and when the World Eaters and Emperor's Children version comes and falls short, I will champion them as well).
Good ideas, i like them. And thank you for the bolded part, i appreciate it.
Zhan wrote: I see a lot of you talking about different gun options and while i agree it would be nice to have some more gun options other than bolter or flamer to gain some variety but I didn't really picked up a TS army for the shooting options.
I picked up a TS because i wanted to blast everything with psychic powers but see no reason why TS is better than any other army. [...]
Am i the only one that feels the same way? An aspiring sorcerer can now cast a "normal" power but without any help they continue to be more of a liability than a asset when you used up the re-roll.
I feel the same way as you, and i agree with what you said. TS should be really scary in the psychic phase and their powers be the real way of destroying things, with shooting and assault as supporting elements, and not the other way around. Right now the TS just are killing themselves in the psychic phase with the null aid to cast the powers and no way of avoiding perils of the warp.
-- And speaking of that, it seems that in the new codex the Rubric marines and SOT squads remains the same in terms of suffering "perils of the warp". It seems there are no clarification or rules or anything, so basically everytime an aspiring sorcerer suffers it, it would kill half of his squad... This was a unit and a situation that needed some sort of clarification or special rule for them (like the GK), but GW simply has copy-pasted the Index units without more effort... is just plain sad
if Thousand Sons did not have the VOTLW rule, and instead had a stratagem called "Inferno Bolt Firestorm" that read "1CP: in the shooting phase, one unit's Inferno Bolters, Warpflamers, Heavy Warpflamers, Soulreaper Cannons, and Hellfyre Missile racks get +1 to wound rolls for the phase"...would you be happier?
Or how about if the Mutalith Beast was instead a new Thousand Sons specific Daemon Engine using a reboxed Fantasy Necrosphinx?
In my opinion, stratagems are mostly a bad way of representing or making an army more "fluff-friendly". Specially in the case of armies like TS and other elite armies, where the CP count is really low. In general i dislike them. Things from the background that were well represented in previous editions, in this edition are being relegated to the stratagems pages, and it is just underwhelming. In the case of the TS, things like the inferno ammo should be an option to have in the vehicles. A combibolter inferno as a base weapon and options to have other inferno weaponry as a payed option.
The second idea you ask, i actually like it. With specific rules and not ones ported from fantasy, it would be a great addition.
Heelidar wrote: Ok. I managed all 32 pages, and can write a reply now.
I am sad. I always considered myself a big fan of TS since 3ed. I stopped playing the game with the introduction of true loss mechanics as in my opinion, it destroyed half of the hobby of converting your miniatures. I didn't stop collecting, painting and dreaming.
Now it seemed that a dream came true. We got a good box of Rubrics, Scarab Occult Terminators (I still don't understand how they became rubricated), Exalted Sorcerers (so many tasty bits in the kit) and Magnus. Then they announced the codex! I was happy as a pig and knew it was time to return to the hobby!
This thread made me sad again. I feel the pain the OP has, and some other dedicated TS players have. I have it as well.
This is indeed a codex Tzangors book. Tzangors got all the combos, all the stratagems and the points to effectiveness ratios. I almost want to go back to the CSM codex.
And the worst part of it is that if people will skip buying Tzangors (I will skip them), GW will just consider TS a money sink army for them to properly support.
I will still make myself a TS army to play with. I even thought of making Tzangor count as miniatures out of IG Scions. And most likely the army will be heavy on daemon engines. Will be hard not to lose TS spirit in it, but definitely better than Tzangors who are a type of blue bloodletters. If I wanted daemon looking half naked horned birds I would not have played TS.
My complaints are:
1) Rubrics are outmatched by Tzangors in almost every aspect.
I thought that the ability to cast something other than mini smite was a big buff until I saw that the AS actually has nothing to cast anyway, mostly because of the high WC.
2) No rules for actual TS units (I can make models myself, just give me the rules).
The possibilities are endless. Psy Dreads, Sorc covens, hidden ones?, hell any form of a daemon engine, as long as it doesn't look like a bird can do.
3) The units we have are not flexible at all.
Only swords on SOT? Why? Exalted Sorc in terminator armour? jump packs? Rubric variants?
4) The Thousand Sons Legion army was robbed of its name. Wait 5 years and people around you will think that TS are tzangors, horrors and a big red daemon prince.
Even the codex Grey Knights makes better TS...
Why would you do that to yourself. Lol.
He is agreeing with you if i understood it right... I don't understand your reaction
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/30 12:02:34
grouchoben wrote: I am kind of sympathetic to all this melancholy, but I'm also at a bit of a loss. I mean, here's an example of what you'll be doing with our new codex: take a batallion with 2 Rubric squads and one Tzaangor herd for deepstriking. Your dusties hold the line and shoot things up, or ride in a rhino to protect them (which can now shoot with 8 -2 shots in rapid fire range, or dish out mortal wounds when it charges to tie something scary up in CC. Big improvement for your rhinos.), or they deepstrike in for a CP, etc.
Meanwhile your ASs can throw back heals on that butcher-cannon contemptor that's getting shot up (remember that techmarines have to be within 3" to do the same). The other squad can drop Boon on your advancing DP every round, buffing an already monstrous unit. They support your big casters by contributing to the requirements to trigger the +2 cast strategem (they're the best in the roster for this), and the trait means that your caster is no longer hamstrung for hanging out with his dusty brothers.
Finally, your HQ will no doubt give one or both squads 1-rerolls, which is a big damage improvement. All our sorcerers are captains now too. Awesome. Thousand Sons HQs got a great deal in this Codex - terminator sorcerer is really improved, as is our DP, and Ahriman got tankier - these are all Sons units, and all great. Any of them will now up your damage output.
Did your 10-man rubric squad get caught up in cc with a chaff charge? Smash the dark crystal, teleport away and shoot the same turn. Ahhhh, that's going to feel very satisfying.
So... Are you somehow *polluted* by this experience? I don't see why. Have your Sons improved? Vastly, with the exception of Big Red. Are tzaangors probably more competitive than dusties? Yes, because they a) are horde units, and they dominate 8th edition, and b) they have gotten some amazing powers and buffs. This is good. They are your other option, they are great models, and they fit in our roster really well.
I'm not saying that next year, if there are Sons lists at LVO, that they won't be spamming Gors - they probably will. But that isn't the only metric by which to assess a codex. Isn't that the actual point of many you?
You only get 1 bolter weapon upgraded from the strat. So 4 inferno bolter shots and 4 reg bolter shots.
You can't cast boon on DP.
Your better off using regular Sorcs for buffing since they can cast 2 know 2 have a wider selection, and bringing 2 Tzaangor squads will pay for most of 1 sorc.
How did TS improve? They got 1 aura taken away and 1 added which is attached to a 100+ dollar model which may or may not survive the first round.
They got less durable, and more? Not killy, thats for sure, we already had access to a reroll 1s aura. DPs never should have had wings on them because all they needed to do was stand next to your Rubrics and do a HI when ever they got charged.
Now we have no reason to bring Exalted, for some weird reason our Sorcerer in Terminator is very appealing.
No they dont fit in our roster they dominate it.
Anwser me this; The Mutalith has 6 different auras, not one of them benefit shooting, why not?
Ah yes Enlightened, with their auto wounds, which is improved by the Shaman, and rerolling 1s to hit. Can't up the already high number of wounds they will be getting.
So make it a units with the All is dust rule only.
Yup your right it's a melee creature, which means it will only be effective in CC if only it had a really big aura like 18"...oh well.
That is what really gets me, that 18" aura is really weird for a model that belongs in CC and only has CC buffs, there is no reason to have a huge aura like that when its going to be right next to the thing its buffing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Warpspy
Have you read this thread?
Half the comments for the first 10 pages are various forms of the three same phrases.
Quite whining, shut up, and just buy the models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/30 13:04:17
Half the comments for the first 10 pages are various forms of the three same phrases.
Quite whining, shut up, and just buy the models.
Yes i have read that, and some of those kind comments have been directed at me in various threads as well. What i said is that Heelidar is in fact agreeing with you, it is saying the same as you or many other people or me are saying, so laugh at him is something i don't understand... Maybe i'm losing something in the translation, english is not my first language, were you being sarcastic?
Earth127 wrote: At this point I wouldn't ask my friends or enemies toi read the entirety of this thread , too much flaming and salt.
Rule n°1 as Alpharius keeps saying took a beating.
I'd like to plead not guilty, but I'm quite sure I am not innocent TBH
Still, it was an interesting read, from the point of watching some people being optimistic and slowly fading into scepticism as more rumours came true.
Earth127 wrote: At this point I wouldn't ask my friends or enemies toi read the entirety of this thread , too much flaming and salt.
Rule n°1 as Alpharius keeps saying took a beating.
I'd like to plead not guilty, but I'm quite sure I am not innocent TBH
Still, it was an interesting read, from the point of watching some people being optimistic and slowly fading into scepticism as more rumours came true.
As one of the people who's optimism has eroded away, I'm glad I could at least entertain you.
"A unit of 10 can also take a soulreaper cannon. If you have Rubric Marines with inferno bolters, always take the soulreaper cannon – it hurts all the same targets your bolters do, but better, and with the same range, so it’s always contributing to the squad’s firepower."
Seems like its not a mistake, don't expect it to get FAQed
Half the comments for the first 10 pages are various forms of the three same phrases.
Quite whining, shut up, and just buy the models.
Yes i have read that, and some of those kind comments have been directed at me in various threads as well. What i said is that Heelidar is in fact agreeing with you, it is saying the same as you or many other people or me are saying, so laugh at him is something i don't understand... Maybe i'm losing something in the translation, english is not my first language, were you being sarcastic?
It was more of a you should have skipped to the end, rather then reading that garbage.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/31 00:17:11
grouchoben wrote: I am kind of sympathetic to all this melancholy, but I'm also at a bit of a loss. I mean, here's an example of what you'll be doing with our new codex: take a batallion with 2 Rubric squads and one Tzaangor herd for deepstriking. Your dusties hold the line and shoot things up, or ride in a rhino to protect them (which can now shoot with 8 -2 shots in rapid fire range, or dish out mortal wounds when it charges to tie something scary up in CC. Big improvement for your rhinos.), or they deepstrike in for a CP, etc.
Meanwhile your ASs can throw back heals on that butcher-cannon contemptor that's getting shot up (remember that techmarines have to be within 3" to do the same). The other squad can drop Boon on your advancing DP every round, buffing an already monstrous unit. They support your big casters by contributing to the requirements to trigger the +2 cast strategem (they're the best in the roster for this), and the trait means that your caster is no longer hamstrung for hanging out with his dusty brothers.
Finally, your HQ will no doubt give one or both squads 1-rerolls, which is a big damage improvement. All our sorcerers are captains now too. Awesome. Thousand Sons HQs got a great deal in this Codex - terminator sorcerer is really improved, as is our DP, and Ahriman got tankier - these are all Sons units, and all great. Any of them will now up your damage output.
Did your 10-man rubric squad get caught up in cc with a chaff charge? Smash the dark crystal, teleport away and shoot the same turn. Ahhhh, that's going to feel very satisfying.
So... Are you somehow *polluted* by this experience? I don't see why. Have your Sons improved? Vastly, with the exception of Big Red. Are tzaangors probably more competitive than dusties? Yes, because they a) are horde units, and they dominate 8th edition, and b) they have gotten some amazing powers and buffs. This is good. They are your other option, they are great models, and they fit in our roster really well.
I'm not saying that next year, if there are Sons lists at LVO, that they won't be spamming Gors - they probably will. But that isn't the only metric by which to assess a codex. Isn't that the actual point of many you?
You only get 1 bolter weapon upgraded from the strat. So 4 inferno bolter shots and 4 reg bolter shots.
You can't cast boon on DP.
Your better off using regular Sorcs for buffing since they can cast 2 know 2 have a wider selection, and bringing 2 Tzaangor squads will pay for most of 1 sorc.
How did TS improve? They got 1 aura taken away and 1 added which is attached to a 100+ dollar model which may or may not survive the first round.
They got less durable, and more? Not killy, thats for sure, we already had access to a reroll 1s aura. DPs never should have had wings on them because all they needed to do was stand next to your Rubrics and do a HI when ever they got charged.
Now we have no reason to bring Exalted, for some weird reason our Sorcerer in Terminator is very appealing.
No they dont fit in our roster they dominate it.
Anwser me this; The Mutalith has 6 different auras, not one of them benefit shooting, why not?
Ah yes Enlightened, with their auto wounds, which is improved by the Shaman, and rerolling 1s to hit. Can't up the already high number of wounds they will be getting.
So make it a units with the All is dust rule only.
Yup your right it's a melee creature, which means it will only be effective in CC if only it had a really big aura like 18"...oh well.
That is what really gets me, that 18" aura is really weird for a model that belongs in CC and only has CC buffs, there is no reason to have a huge aura like that when its going to be right next to the thing its buffing.
The Mutalith doesn't have an aura. You pick a Single unit with in 9 or 18 when its damage roll and that unit gets the ability. You need to roll a d6 to see see if the ability manifests (not the d6 for choosing two abilities) and that is also tied to the damage profile 2+/3+/4+.
The buffs aren't auras, they affect a single unit within range more like My Will Be Done.
What and they want 150 points jesus.
It's still a 14W T7 monster with decent CC-capabilities. (12 attacks even at WS4+ is nothing to scoff at.)
I'd take a Mutalith over a Maulerfiend every day in a TS-list.
I would take 2 or 3 for a spearhead. But yeah the mutalith looks like a no brainier replacement for a mauler fiend. That's why I am afraid one of them will either go up or down in points by the end of the year just to create a differentiation between them.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
5500 pts 
6500 pts 
7000 pts 
9000 pts 
13.000 pts 
Why would you do that to yourself. 
