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 Backspacehacker wrote:

 andrewm9 wrote:
Personally I think there should be more than the simple choice of Scarab Occult Terminators and Rubric Marines Rubric Marines or marines in general for the Thousand Sons. I mean did the Thousands sons just drop all of their weapons for bolters, soul reaper cannons, and warp flamers after the Rubric of Ahriman was cast?. I know that Magnus was no strategic genius, but he's still smart supposedly. It just seems silly to give all that up. At the very least give us some Khentai variant and possibly a untit bearing some heavy weapons. Who knows maybe they will, but I doubt it.

They were already using those weapons when they got changed.

Soul reaper already existed, it was the name the time sons gave to the assult Cannon because they did not like the original name of the weapon , assault Cannon. This is explained in the book "thousand some"

Warp bolters are explained because they started ensceibing their rounds with runes to make them more deadly, and the warflamers are just warp juiced up flamers. The t sons where never known for using heavy weapons, even in the books, they always used their psyker powers to sub In for the lack of heavy weapons. I mean they still have vehicles yeah, but most of their ground forces utilized the warp.

See we KNOW this isnt true even in the slightest, we KNOW exactly what they used, its in the legions crusade army list, there are limits of course on some things but they have access to the entire legion list pretty much.

So its not a case of OP not knowing the TS fluff, its GW not knowing its own fluff as usual, there is zero, zilch reason why TS could not band together there heavy weapons into Havoc squads, there specials into special weapon squads.

When the Rubric hit every non psyker TS was turned into Rubricai, thats command staff, assault marines, terminators, breachers, everything that was left, so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.

This is the same issue with Death Guard, the stuff ported from codex chaos marines doesnt get the +1 T or FNP...... for reasons, its stupid and breaks immersion for me with that army.

Have a Thousand Sons force here, though its all Heresy Era stuff as I prefer the colours and just never really liked the newer models.

As for the army being dead.. I thought that was sort of the point?

Don't mind the AoS models being brought in, its essentially 'free' for GW to do it so why not? no one says anyone has to use them, just use cultists and be done with it.

Can take various other vehicles and run them in Thousand Sons colours.

what would be nice though, since they are meant to be a relic of a long gone force, is to be able to use some of the 30k organisation - the tactical support squads etc

 Formosa wrote:

When the Rubric hit every non psyker TS was turned into Rubricai, thats command staff, assault marines, terminators, breachers, everything that was left, so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.

There are Rubric terminators. As for a lot of that other stuff, the Rubrics are probably too stupid to do any complex things without constant sorcerer supervision. Rubric command staff is right out.

Actually scarab occult should not have been rubriced, GW goofed on their own lore with that one. The command staff IE the occult sects of the thousand son's would not have been effected by the rubric.

 Crimson wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

When the Rubric hit every non psyker TS was turned into Rubricai, thats command staff, assault marines, terminators, breachers, everything that was left, so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.

There are Rubric terminators. As for a lot of that other stuff, the Rubrics are probably too stupid to do any complex things without constant sorcerer supervision. Rubric command staff is right out.

nope not true, as elites they work, as HQ I agree nope, take an old praetor, he is now a rubric, so has a selection of weapons it could have, give it lower stats to represent its loss of "self", bam you have a rubric elite choice that is both fluffy and has a purpose (maybe an aura that -1 to LD or somthing), another is a legion herald, simply and Rubric with a Banner, next we can have a new character, a TS soul smith, someone has to repair the armour and either bring back rubricai or make new ones, GW makes up stuff like this all the time, it can be there apothecary equivalent, that 3 new elite choices.

Next we get Rubric, Rubric Hellfire squads (special weapon sqauds), Rubric Breachers (+1 AS for shield)

Heavy we get Rubric Havocs

so with very very little effort I have come up with easily convertible units, that 6 extra units that GW would not have to make a kit for.....

 Backspacehacker wrote:
The command staff IE the occult sects of the thousand son's would not have been effected by the rubric.

Right. But that's the sorcerers. You have sorcerers.

Also it's been confirmed that rubric are not "mindless suits of armor" they are just really emo, they have full thought and reasoning, they are just salty over the whole being stuck inside your armor. I mean imagine never feeling or experiencing all the human sensation you feel for over 5k years and see how happy you would be.


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 Crimson wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
The command staff IE the occult sects of the thousand son's would not have been effected by the rubric.

Right. But that's the sorcerers. You have sorcerers.

I'm confused as to what you are trying to say.

I'm trying to stay that none of the scarab occult should have been rubriced and the fact that they are is a lore slip up on GWs part. All the sorcerer in the rubic marines should still be flesh, and ALL of the scarab occult should be human still. Every member of the occult sects we're powerful psyker users not just the squad leaders.

 Formosa wrote:


nope not true, as elites they work, as HQ I agree nope, take an old praetor, he is now a rubric, so has a selection of weapons it could have, give it lower stats to represent its loss of "self", bam you have a rubric elite choice that is both fluffy and has a purpose (maybe an aura that -1 to LD or somthing), another is a legion herald, simply and Rubric with a Banner, next we can have a new character, a TS soul smith, someone has to repair the armour and either bring back rubricai or make new ones, GW makes up stuff like this all the time, it can be there apothecary equivalent, that 3 new elite choices.

Next we get Rubric, Rubric Hellfire squads (special weapon sqauds), Rubric Breachers (+1 AS for shield)

Heavy we get Rubric Havocs

so with very very little effort I have come up with easily convertible units, that 6 extra units that GW would not have to make a kit for.....

I really don't see Rubrics much caring about a banner. But yeah, a lot of the stuff you mentioned could work. I think it would probably best be handled by FW releasing conversion kits to go with plastic Rubrics and then provide rules for them.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Also it's been confirmed that rubric are not "mindless suits of armor" they are just really emo, they have full thought and reasoning, they are just salty over the whole being stuck inside your armor. I mean imagine never feeling or experiencing all the human sensation you feel for over 5k years and see how happy you would be.


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 Crimson wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
The command staff IE the occult sects of the thousand son's would not have been effected by the rubric.

Right. But that's the sorcerers. You have sorcerers.

I'm confused as to what you are trying to say.

I'm trying to stay that none of the scarab occult should have been rubriced and the fact that they are is a lore slip up on GWs part. All the sorcerer in the rubic marines should still be flesh, and ALL of the scarab occult should be human still. Every member of the occult sects we're powerful psyker users not just the squad leaders.

Let me start by saying I agree that Thousand Sons deserve more(if we are accepting that the game needs 2000 different power armor armies of course). I am really unhappy about no Thousand Son dreadnought, as they could have had a lot of fun with that or at a minimum a psyche dread. Maybe one day the Thousand Sons can learn from the Blood Angels.

With that said, Games Workshop hand waved Rubric Scarab Occult in the last book. It's in an obscure blurb in the section showing different paint schemes for thousand sons. Apparently there were a bunch of them trying to protect Magnus from himself and/or tzeentch or something(too lazy to get up and find my book), and he got angry and mind smoked them into rubric type things.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Also it's been confirmed that rubric are not "mindless suits of armor" they are just really emo, they have full thought and reasoning, they are just salty over the whole being stuck inside your armor. I mean imagine never feeling or experiencing all the human sensation you feel for over 5k years and see how happy you would be.


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 Crimson wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
The command staff IE the occult sects of the thousand son's would not have been effected by the rubric.

Right. But that's the sorcerers. You have sorcerers.

I'm confused as to what you are trying to say.

I'm trying to stay that none of the scarab occult should have been rubriced and the fact that they are is a lore slip up on GWs part. All the sorcerer in the rubic marines should still be flesh, and ALL of the scarab occult should be human still. Every member of the occult sects we're powerful psyker users not just the squad leaders.

Where has that been confirmed? every book I've read to date has suggested they have MOSTLY lost themselves, although traces remain

It's logic of how and why the rubric was done.
All members of the occult sects we're powerful psykers, that's the whole reason they got into the occult sects. Because they we're powerful psykers they were at risk to the flesh change, I mutations. The rubric was cast so that the psykers of the 1000 sons did not suffer from said mutation, and it worked, but all non psykers/not powerful one's, were rubriced.

Because of that the sorcerer in rubric squads should still be human, and every member of the occult should also still be human because they were all powerful psykers. GW did see hand wavium that ignored that little fact. Same thing with the exaulted sorcerers that have mutations, that is lore breaking but it was only after that GW did more and wavium and said they accepted those mutations, which again, when you know anything about the T sons you know they are absolutely terrorfied of mutations which is the whole reason they did the rubric in the first place.

Now I agree I wish we got psyker dreads or even rubric dreads for that matter. I would also love to see other occult sects besides just the scarab occult.

So wouldn't that mean the Occult Sects are now represented by Sorcerers? You would think after 10 thousand years you would get a promotion.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
So wouldn't that mean the Occult Sects are now represented by Sorcerers? You would think after 10 thousand years you would get a promotion.

I mean yes? They have always been sorcerers so.

About Tsons not having bodies and are all about not having mutations. I read the book Ahriman Unchained, which I would consider modern times in 40k.

 Formosa wrote:
so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.

You think they have a lack of imagination putting different weapons on Rubrics? Funny.

I want to play Thousand Sons - the legion that had a calamitous tumble into the hands of Tzeentch. Not Ultramarines with an extra rule on the marines.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.

You think they have a lack of imagination putting different weapons on Rubrics? Funny.

I want to play Thousand Sons - the legion that had a calamitous tumble into the hands of Tzeentch. Not Ultramarines with an extra rule on the marines.

Before you do let me do you a favor, prime in retributor gold, and put on some music while you fill in all the blue because woof, it is rough to paint them.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
So wouldn't that mean the Occult Sects are now represented by Sorcerers? You would think after 10 thousand years you would get a promotion.

I mean yes? They have always been sorcerers so.

What I'm getting at; is the Sects wouldn't operate the same way anymore, it they still exist, after 10k years. Who would want to be a terminator sgt when you are a bad ass superhuman Sorcerer that can be a super villain. The Chaos Legions continuing to act the same way as they did under the Emperor makes no sense to me. The Thousand Sons when gathered in force would be more like the Legion Of Doom than a military organization.

 Crimson Devil wrote:


What I'm getting at; is the Sects wouldn't operate the same way anymore, it they still exist, after 10k years. Who would want to be a terminator sgt when you are a bad ass superhuman Sorcerer that can be a super villain. The Chaos Legions continuing to act the same way as they did under the Emperor makes no sense to me. The Thousand Sons when gathered in force would be more like the Legion Of Doom than a military organization.

Yep. The original surviving sorcerers are your HQs now.

 Crimson wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:


What I'm getting at; is the Sects wouldn't operate the same way anymore, it they still exist, after 10k years. Who would want to be a terminator sgt when you are a bad ass superhuman Sorcerer that can be a super villain. The Chaos Legions continuing to act the same way as they did under the Emperor makes no sense to me. The Thousand Sons when gathered in force would be more like the Legion Of Doom than a military organization.

Yep. The original surviving sorcerers are your HQs now.

Surviving as in old age? Because ALL of the occult would have survives the rubric and been left human.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.

You think they have a lack of imagination putting different weapons on Rubrics? Funny.

I want to play Thousand Sons - the legion that had a calamitous tumble into the hands of Tzeentch. Not Ultramarines with an extra rule on the marines.

Absolutely I do, it's somthing that should already be in the codex and then they can leap from there, as it stands they are bland on top of bland, like the other chaos legions there is so much they could explore and expand upon but they haven't even got the basics down, so yes, it lacks imagination and is a clear disconnect between the fluff and the TT, and not even in the "abstract" way that rules/fluff usually has with marines, it is quite frankly stupid that normal marines look more like fluff chaos legions than actual chaos legions donthese days.

I mean, look at it this way, where are the flesh changed thousand sons? Did they all die? Did the rubric reduce them to dust? If not why is there no flesh changed unit option? All the thousand sons that used legion heavy weapons, where are they now? Why are there no options for rubric havocs? Are lords and sorcerers so stupid and forgetful that they don't know how to tell a few of the rubrics with these weapons to band together for fire support ?

What we will likely get is a havoc squad of thousand sons, not rubrics, with heavy weapons and it's dim, if the design team hasn't thought of it, why not?

I want the basics of what should already be there, not a bare bones army list, rubrics should fulfill every role they are supposed to according to the fluff, this means elite chosen rubrics, troop choice rubrics and special weapon squads, and heavy weapon squads, I can understand why there would not be bike squads though.

As for tzaangors, I like them, I like the addition, but that should not detract from the thousand sons complete lack of the basic units they should have.

 Formosa wrote:


I want the basics of what should already be there, not a bare bones army list, rubrics should fulfill every role they are supposed to according to the fluff, this means elite chosen rubrics, troop choice rubrics and special weapon squads, and heavy weapon squads, I can understand why there would not be bike squads though.

As for tzaangors, I like them, I like the addition, but that should not detract from the thousand sons complete lack of the basic units they should have.

I don't understand how that is any more imaginative though. It's basically a weapon sprue add-on and some bulkier backpacks...that's it. GW would have done that if they wanted to.

I like how people's idea of imaginative is "Rubrics, but in a different force org slot!"

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I like how people's idea of imaginative is "Rubrics, but in a different force org slot!"

As much flak GW gets for releasing "redundant" units at least I have to say normally their ideas for units are much more interesting, like the DG daemonic engines ones.

I never said it was imaginative myself, but I’d like options other than smite spam or chaos predators to deal with heavy tanks or knights or huge monsters becuase many codexes have lots of new weapns that do more then 1 wound which means I won’t stan up to them for very long with my super elite army. And yes I am one of those who doesn’t like tzaangors and no I haven’t been using them.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I like how people's idea of imaginative is "Rubrics, but in a different force org slot!"

Covering the fundamental bases doesn't really need to aim for creativity: Thousand sons are a few units short of that... And if you get out of the mindset of thousand sons being an elite choose for chaos marines, frankly they lack the tactical options any marine legion should have.

Frankly if drawing a comparison to death guard, even they kinda lack a "Devastator" variant on plague marines, though they do have assault covered via the close combat options the basic troop unit can swap their Bolters for.

My point is, don't let innovation so heavily outweigh the basics you never get the basics done.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
If you don't like Tzaangors don't use them. It's as easy as that. My DG force is comprised of Marines mostly with poxwalkers numbering not more than one unit that I haven't used yet.

I'm playing Nurgle-Daemons, so I have to buy a codex of which I don't want to use 75%.

Of course you aren't paying for smite ability that becomes less and less usefull approaching 0 the more DG units you take.

I kind of feel the same way about the Poxwalkerification of the Death Guard. They were a Traitor Legion, heavily marine based, and IMHO, they created this unit in between a cultist and a demon to fill out the starter sets, and preserve the "Chaos is always weaker than the Imperium" deal. By making them fairly strong, they sold extra starter kits, and lists are filled with them. Many DG lists don't even play Plague Marines which to me just makes.absolutely no sense. Imagine playing Space Wolves with nothing but Scouts!

AspiringChamp wrote:
Imagine playing Space Wolves with nothing but Scouts!

Many vanilla space marine lists use scouts instead of tac squads commonly.

changemod wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I like how people's idea of imaginative is "Rubrics, but in a different force org slot!"

Covering the fundamental bases doesn't really need to aim for creativity: Thousand sons are a few units short of that... And if you get out of the mindset of thousand sons being an elite choose for chaos marines, frankly they lack the tactical options any marine legion should have.

Frankly if drawing a comparison to death guard, even they kinda lack a "Devastator" variant on plague marines, though they do have assault covered via the close combat options the basic troop unit can swap their Bolters for.

My point is, don't let innovation so heavily outweigh the basics you never get the basics done.

I would have liked to see an infantry based anti-tank option, for sure; I think it's the only fundamental we're missing with the new AoS units. We needed a more inexpensive psyker and got the Tzaangor Shaman, we needed a fast attack choice and got the Tzaangor Enlightened. Tzaangor Skyfires will probably end up being snipers, which means we'll be the only Traitor Legion with access to sniper weapons. There's no telling what the Mutalith is going to be since the Sigmar rules are pretty wild and not the kind of thing I'd expect to be ported directly to 40k, but hopefully it'll offer some strong anti-tank.

It just occurred to me... Since the Tzaangor Skyfires use bows, I wonder if they'll be S:User. If so you could buff their shooting with a Herald.

Responding to some of the things said so far:

"Aren't Rubrics super rare?"

So are every other type of SM in the game, but entire armies can be fielded of those why not Rubrics?

"Tzzangors have been around for a while."

Yes, and T-Sons have made use of them. What they havent done is built entire armies of Tzzangors.

"You can still bring all Rubric armies"

Not if you want to have a snowballs chance in hell of winning. You will be paying 10 extra points for a smite you cant use for every squad over 3 not including any Sorcs you bring for HQ choices.

"Just try it out, DG worked pretty well"

Thats not an argument, but whatever. I probably will try it out. The problem is Plague Marines can be retrofitted to handle basically any situation. Rubrics can't which means there are holes which are going to be left wide open in the army.

"Can I have your stuff?"

No.

"How can you be so sure Rubrics will be over costed"

Changes to smite are going to render multiple units of Rubrics detramental to any army which can take them. Beyond 3 units, a -2 on smite rolls at that point, you are basically screwed when it comes to manifesting smite for which you paid.

"Thousand Sons are bland, they need something different"

And how is focusing on non-TS units going to make TS less bland. Thats like saying my spaghetti is bland so ill add a steak. Your spaghetti is still bland you just have a steak which creates the illusion of diversity.

Now some things I should make clear.

1.) I dont mind adding a couple of support units here or there its when half my roster is not from the army I picked to play.

2.) Most people have not addressed the smite change which is a big part of this complaint.

3.) Stop bringing up DG like PM are the same as Rubricae, PM are WAY more customizable.

The simple fact is once this codex drops a thousand sons army will have 3 units of Tzzangors on foot, 3-4 units Gors on disks, a couple of giant spawn, 2-3 Gor Shamen, MAYBE 2 units of Rubricae probably just 1 unit of 20 and 2 Exalted Sorcs on disks and Ahriman on a disk and that will probably come out to 1850 or so points when fully upgraded. You will have 50 Tzzangors on the table and just over half that when it comes to actual TS units.

Again don't get me wrong I dont mind some Tzzangors but when you look at this army you wont think the Tzzangors are there to support the Rubrics you will think the Rubrics are there to support the Tzzangors.